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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Epilepsy / September 2005

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Symptoms and Seizures

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Skookum - 04 Sep 2005 00:39 GMT
Last year at school my 10 year old daughter's teacher mentioned to me
that she had occasional lapses, times when she justy didn't seem to "be
there". In fact, I had thought something the same but did not really
klnow what to make of it and where I live doctors are scarce and tend
to focus only on big problems, not what they write off as mere
daydreaming.

A week ago for the first time, my daughter had a spell of about 10
minutes where she felt numbness in her right cheek, right arm and had
her words both slurring and mixing up (i.e. the wrong word coming out).
She was very aware of this and even mildly amused (though frightened)
by the mistaken words.

Now she is going to have a full neuro examiniation but that is a few
weeks away and in my reading on the Internet I came across some
information about absence or petit mal seizures as well as other
materials on simple partial seizures that involve localized numbness. I
was wondering if folks on this group who have had experience with
pediatric epilepsy have noted a combination of such distinct types of
seizures. I am not clear whether one would expect different kinds of
events or not.

Thanks
G.Ross - 04 Sep 2005 01:39 GMT
  I did a post about 2? weeks ago where I listed some websites I'd found
along my travels.  One of them is Howdy Dave's site, if you have some of his
posts.   He's the only one currently 'from my list' who's active this week.
  If you'd like, you can either reply here or direct to me, and I can
locate the older post and forward it Direct to you, or look it up for you
and re-post it here, if you'd rather.   They include some websites and
'first aid links'  etc.  that are handy to  have in a  folder, or on a
bookmark for reference (that's why I don't have them with me here at the
moment).

 From my recall of the seizure types and symptoms on some of those sites,
the 3 names of the seizure type you've used below, at **s  (absence, petit
mal, and simple partial) are all similar or the same seizure, but with names
used by various practices or medical and treating people.
    Several of us have had absences, where 'the lights are on but there's
no one home', and those can happen within more than just the seizure types
above (mine do).   Mine, I used to temporarily tune out, and only when
someone asked if I was listening or alright, did I 'come back', and I
couldn't recall what they had said for a period of time.  Only about 20-30%
of the time did I have any type of Numbness, but 100% of my times, I lost
awareness of where I was, what I was doing, and many of the times, I was
potentially in danger or completely lost consciousness.  (Complex Partial
type, I have, often end in loss of consciousness at end, until they're
controlled.)

  For safety, it's probably wise to get those checked, as you plan, since
if they got worse there could be side effects she might not like.
 (Some of mine included disorientation while crossing a busy street,
losing awareness in Shopping Malls and wandering off unaware of Traffic or
objects in my way,  or getting onto buses I didn't need.   Not all those
need happen with that type of seizure, but some could unless it's treated,
or diagnosed.   And depending on her Peer Group, she may not want that to
start happening, if they can be controlled after the Doctor has done some
diagnosis work. )
   If it's happening with a fair consistency, it will often show up on an
EEG (Electro-encephalogram) test, where they wire up parts on the outside of
the head, then flash lights, trigger sounds and other stimulii, that produce
waves on paper for the Dr. to interpret.  Mine were very obvious (I even
knew as the technician was circling places on the paper as the test was
running).    *Some people here have had EEGs that didn't show their seizure
type as easily or the first time they had it run.
   But I think it's *worth running the test if your Doctor agrees. As I
suggested above, if she's having absences when there may be no one around
who knows that, there could be some safety issues that I'd be happier if you
were able to get those treated.   Some people might have those as result of
some types of allergies, but most of us have either some type of Brain Wave
irregularity or condition that can be treated with medication, but *after
it's identified by tests like above.  It's good that her Teacher noticed
those and let you know, since they are with our kids some days longer than
we might be, so in a better position to notice things like that.
    Others here will voice their opinions over next day or two --we're an
International Group and get posts from about 8 of the main timezones, but
we're not all online at the same time.  And some of the posters may not read
the group each day (this is a Holiday weekend in Canada for one).

  Please,  keep us posted about what's going on and how you make out with
the Doctors. And if you have more questions before the Dr. appointment or
after it, add them to the posts too.
  All of us around here started out as First Time posters and stayed on.
Well, except for Howdy Dave who's olde and wisened..   I don't know when he
started--he said something once about some guy named Galileo... G./

> Last year at school my 10 year old daughter's teacher mentioned to me
> that she had occasional lapses, times when she justy didn't seem to "be
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Thanks
G.Ross - 04 Sep 2005 04:05 GMT
>   I did a post about 2? weeks ago where I listed some websites I'd found
> along my travels.  One of them is Howdy Dave's site, if you have some of
> his posts  **(His site address is listed below now).
 This is one older post I did with some websites mentioned on this earlier
site.  -->

The main Idaho Epilepsy News site is at http://www.epilepsyidaho.org  .
Within that are links that also go through an Education area called Learn
about Epilepsy -- at http://www.epilepsyidaho.org/learn.htm.

  Often some *symptoms people **exhibit give clues to *type of seizures
they're having and best described on a First Aid for Seizures Chart.  These
are my favorites -- also from Epilepsy Idaho. One is
http://www.epilepsyidaho.org/seizure2.htm    and that links to
http://www.epilepsyidaho.org/seizure.htm .   One of those is easier to
print, although both display well for information or reference.

  There is also a separate page for First Aid in Water I didn't include,
although those sites might link to it.  What to do when someone in swimming
is somewhat different that if they were to collapse 'on land'.

    Howdy Dave has a site he put together ~10? years ago and he regularly
updates.  He was also one of the oldest :-<  members of this group and
someone told me he was one of the Founders too.  Most people don't know
that, so he doesn't get a swelled head or anything.. :->   His site is at
http://www.howdydave.com  .  G2R2/

>    I have a few sites I used to post but they're not handy at the moment
> and I'll be offline shortly.    The main U.S. Ep. Foundation website is at
> http://efa.org  .   THIS SITE Has a Medication Glossary, although I found
> my own pharmacist a useful source of information if I had Side Effects or
> Questions about using a particular prescribed pill.
//  G./
Dave ©¿©¬ - 04 Sep 2005 17:05 GMT
Howdy Skookum!

My epilepsy went undiagnosed for quite a few years.

Looking back, I have a clear indication of when it started. There were
comments on my report card stating that I "Daydreamed during class."

I vigorously denied these statements and it was a mystery to me until I knew
about my epilepsy.

Signature

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"

http://www.howdydave.com

> Last year at school my 10 year old daughter's teacher mentioned to me
> that she had occasional lapses, times when she justy didn't seem to "be
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Thanks
Julie - 06 Sep 2005 07:35 GMT
Hi Skookum, welcome to our ng.  It is let your daughter know that there are
many people who experience seizure disorders and it is very good that she
will be seeing a specialist. Thank goodness your teacher's pointed out the
problem and you listened to them.

I had full blown grand mal seizures in high school and the teachers told us
to pay attention, but even though I remember my mother taking me to the
local doctor, nothing was done.  Of course this was in a little town in
Alaska and I'm really old, so hopefully things have changed around there.

Hope your daughter gets the help she needs.
Take care,
Julie, Volunteer Webmaster
http://www.epilepsyidaho.org

> Last year at school my 10 year old daughter's teacher mentioned to me
> that she had occasional lapses, times when she justy didn't seem to "be
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Thanks
Sofia - 08 Sep 2005 22:33 GMT
> A week ago for the first time, my daughter had a spell of about 10
> minutes where she felt numbness in her right cheek, right arm and had
> her words both slurring and mixing up (i.e. the wrong word coming out).
> She was very aware of this and even mildly amused (though frightened)
> by the mistaken words.

It can be very frightening for children can't it, but as you seem to have
reminded me, my mother always seemed to have been much more frightened
about it than I ever was. Even today it's hubby that seems to worry about
me all day, while like your daughter, I'm just mildly amused by it all.

Back to Kris's original question about keppra side-effects though, I don't
particularly think this problem is unique to the drug keppra, as they seem
to affect quite a lot of us whatever drug we're prescribed.

Ever since the mid 70's, when I was at school, I seemed to have been
getting these twitches that Kris seems to get, and the worst part of it is
that they always seem to move at their own volition. They have a mind of
their own, and always seem to pounce at the wrong time.

These side-effects have probably been experience by many others on the
newsgroup other than just ourselves, so I certainly sympathise with you
and all the others, who have gotten into trouble in the past for thumping
or kicking strangers who haven't got a clue about your condition. I have
to say though that the most embarrassing twitch for me has to be the eye
twitch, as winking at boys on the bus to and from school was always a
problem for me. Nowadays I end up winking at people in Sainsbury's whilst
I'm pushing my trolley around at no fault of my own, but if I didn't have
hubby with me to explain why I was winking at somebody's partner, I
probably wouldn't even be here today.

My best advice to Kris is to always make sure she has somebody with her at
all times. Whether it's a relative, friend, partner doesn't matter, just
so long as they know about your condition, and can defend you if you get
into any little misunderstandings.

All the best

Sofie    

Signature

Please visit my deviantART page: http://sofen.deviantart.com/

Skookum - 22 Sep 2005 18:11 GMT
"Skookum" here again with an update. My daughter had an EEG (she was
supposed to be also scheduled for a CAT scan but it turns out our
family doctor forgot to fill out the required forms and so we waited
and waited...etc). Here's what it said verbatim by  the "neuro
consultant" (an MD) :

________________
Technical Summary:

The awake resting portion of the recording shows a well regulated 40-50
microvolt 10 cycles per alpha rhythm. Low amplitude beta activity was
the dominant frequency in the anterior leads.

In the awake state there are frequent brief bursts of up to 1 or 1.5
seconds assessed spike activity in occipital derivations. This is
bilateral but a little bit more on the right side.

Photic Stimulation:

Symmetrical recruitment between hemispheres.

Hyperventilation:

The occipital fast spikes were quite a bit more prominent during over
breathing and there were two slight bursts of episodic and frontal
dominat spike and poly-spike and 3 cycles per second slow wave
activity. One lasted one second and other two seconds.

Impression:

This is an abnormal EEG. Brief runs of spike activity is(sic) recorded
in occipital derivations and generalized spike slow wave activity is
present during hyperventilation. The finidngs would be consistent with
a diagnosis of generalized epilepsy.
________________________

Our daughter says she has had no further episodes to her knowledge
other than that previously described 10 minute period of tingling in
arm, face and speech slurring. We have to have the foolishly
forgotten-about CAT first to eliminate non-epilepsy possibilities but
assuming that comes back consistent with an epilepsy diagnosis, we'll
start looking here and further afield for a good place where some
comprehensive knowledge of pediatric epilepsy exists. Given that he
major apaprent symptom to date has been those absence seizures her
teacher her noticed, I am especially interested in therapies that not
so much eliminate these but help the kid to adjust so that her learning
does not suffer.

Regards.
G.Ross - 24 Sep 2005 20:43 GMT
> "Skookum" here again with an update. My daughter had an EEG (she was
> supposed to be also scheduled for a CAT scan but it turns out our
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> and put them into a form you can understand without needing a medical
> licence.
She is having short spikes of electric activity in an area of her brain
called the 'occipital lobe'.  If you want to read up on what that controls
and how damage or misfiring might affect that area, while you wait for them
to complete their tests, you could search on that area just to see the sorts
of things they control -- (I think there are *2 occipital lobes?  If there
are, you'll later need to know if it's one or both, and *Which one, if it's
only one. You *might be able to tell by reading the symptoms of either side
in the literature or at efa.  Treatments and symptoms can vary depending
which side a spike was occurring on.   )
 Various areas of our brain control various functions and abilities, and
either damage or deficit in a particular area can produce different symptoms
that, so far, *you've done a better job of analyzing than the Medical help
you have.  Any therapies or things you or the school could do to help, would
depend on whether any damage was minor or more severe, and the extent to
which it could get worse as she matures.   *Some kids these things just
clear up while the med. staff search for solutions.  Not always, but enough
that it is something encouraging to hope for.  Alternatively there might be
a milder (than adult) medication that might help her suppress those 'spikes'
it mentions, and that might be enough to help with her learning and
schoolwork until she is older and either outgrows the condition or moves to
an adult dose medication.  (As she  had spikes during the test, it could be
possible she also has them at night, so could be getting less rest than if
they were controlled.)

(I recognize the name [occipital lobe], but am not familiar with the Area
and what it controls, or I'd have given it here when you first posted.
Perhaps some of the others around *now, who have **Occipital Lobe-based
seizures, can tell us about them and GIVE US A Name for the seizure type, or
some www addresses....

 The 'Generalized Epilepsy'  stuff above is junk.    There are about *5
main seizure types and they haven't used Any of the standard *names you
could do a search on, unless you just want to use Generalized.
   There are Simple Partial, Complex Partial (mine-> usually end in loss of
consciousness),
Grand Mal,  or Petit Mal seizure types.  Younger kids can have 'myoclonic'
or one other type, depending on age. I'm not a Doctor.   But usually, when
they refer to a seizure 'generalizing' (you might encounter yet) it means
electrical waves spread across the rest of the brain, and can result in loss
of consciousness, and possibly kidney control.

** Generalized Seizures do not exist on the Ep. Foundation Charts? (I think)
It's like saying your car has a loose strut somewhere, without completing
the diagnosis of exactly what the H** is wrong with it and what's causing
it....   There's not enough information on that report to do anything with.
Hopefully the 2nd test will give something useful.  My opinion
(non-medical)-- the only useful info. we have so far is about the Doctor/
staff ordering the tests.

    The advantage of having these is if you also get the Other Test
results, including the one he 'forgot to do' ?? you could carry them to a
Doctor who might be able to analyze them if you decided to.. *I wouldn't let
this Dr. do any kind of surgery or work that requires *attention...  Just my
opinion.
*********
    In the meantime, wrt. seizure types, you could look at http://efa.org 
under Absence Seizures, possibly Petit Mal and Simple Partial to see if any
of the symptoms fit into what she already had experienced.   Although some
types of seizures can be outgrown, it would be to her advantage to start
without assuming that, and looking under those descriptions for information.
    If she is Prescribed anything, the efa site has a Medications Glossary
you could look at for additional information beyond what your pharmacy
provides with the first prescription. (If they don't provide information on
what to avoid or use with it,  *ask them for the Manufacturer's Website so
you can get that information for yourself  to print.  ) /

> Our daughter says she has had no further episodes to her knowledge
> other than that previously described 10 minute period of tingling in
> arm, face and speech slurring.
*** That could be the case.  The trouble with an Absence (I've had) is she
can be 'away' for periods of seconds to minutes, and unless she's doing
something that required attention -- riding a bike or skateboard -- she
might not be aware she *had them.    That's why it was *good that the
Teacher noticed those and let you know about them.
   If you can see any posts still up from Julie, at the end she usually
includes the www of the Idaho website -- there are 2 excellent First Aid
charts there (land and water), that also help identifying the szr. type
based on behaviours the patient exhibits.   The main site (and likely 1st
Aid) should be on bookmarks for easy reference too.  You can look through
the whole site when you have time, as there's a lot of useful information
there, that will save you having to learn this stuff from scratch and might
help with questions for a doctor as you supervise her treatment to a
successful control and outcome.    Keep us posted, as some people only read
the group 2-3x a week, and may not respond for a few days after your
original posting went up.   /

We have to have the foolishly
> forgotten-about CAT first to eliminate non-epilepsy possibilities but
> assuming that comes back consistent with an epilepsy diagnosis, we'll
> start looking here and further afield for a good place where some
> comprehensive knowledge of pediatric epilepsy exists.
**** The Computer Assisted Tomography is a 3D Heat senser, that then
produces a 3D map of what's inside.  It's often more accurate (down to
millimetres) if there was any damage or blood blockages than an EEG, which
detects Electric waves and spikes (above), but doesn't always show where
it's *from.   It's from an Occipital Lobe but that didn't tell us much so
far...  What we want is to know if there's any lump, blood blockage or what?
that might be interfering with its operation.  Possibly there's a small
glitch that predates her being born or when she was really young, that the
Dr. can treat either with therapies or medications.    (We use Occupational
Therapists for the former in Canada, who help school kids/adults develop
workarounds if they had learning problems, or to catch up to where other
kids might be, then she could carry on with the rest of the class from
there.) /G.

Given that he
> major apaprent symptom to date has been those absence seizures her
> teacher her noticed, I am especially interested in therapies that not
> so much eliminate these but help the kid to adjust so that her learning
> does not suffer.
>
> Regards.
G.Ross - 24 Sep 2005 23:35 GMT
I posted this list of websites about 3 weeks ago.  You probably hadn't
registered here then. Here it is again. -->
"G.Ross" <> wrote in message news:aeadnVOOPufE34feRVn-vw@rogers.com...
>   I did a post about 2? weeks ago where I listed some websites I'd found
> along my travels.  One of them is Howdy Dave's site, if you have some of
> his posts  **(His site address is listed below now).
 This is one older post I did with some websites mentioned on this earlier
site.  -->

The main Idaho Epilepsy News site is at http://www.epilepsyidaho.org  .
Within that are links that also go through an Education area called Learn
about Epilepsy -- at http://www.epilepsyidaho.org/learn.htm.

  Often some *symptoms people **exhibit give clues to *type of seizures
they're having and best described on a First Aid for Seizures Chart.  These
are my favorites -- also from Epilepsy Idaho. One is
http://www.epilepsyidaho.org/seizure2.htm    and that links to
http://www.epilepsyidaho.org/seizure.htm .   One of those is easier to
print, although both display well for information or reference.

  There is also a separate page for First Aid in Water I didn't include,
although those sites might link to it.  What to do when someone in swimming
is somewhat different that if they were to collapse 'on land'.

    Howdy Dave has a site he put together ~10? years ago and he regularly
updates.  He was also one of the oldest :-<  members of this group and
someone told me he was one of the Founders too.  Most people don't know
that, so he doesn't get a swelled head or anything.. :->   His site is at
http://www.howdydave.com  .  G2R2/

>    I have a few sites I used to post but they're not handy at the moment
> and I'll be offline shortly.    The main U.S. Ep. Foundation website is at
> http://efa.org  .   THIS SITE Has a Medication Glossary, although I found
> my own pharmacist a useful source of information if I had Side Effects or
> Questions about using a particular prescribed pill.
//  G./

>> "Skookum" here again with an update. My daughter had an EEG (she was
>> supposed to be also scheduled for a CAT scan but it turns out our
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>> does not suffer.
>> Regards.
Dave ©¿©¬ - 25 Sep 2005 04:17 GMT
> "Skookum" here again with an update.

<snip>

> Given that he
> major apaprent symptom to date has been those absence seizures her
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Regards.

Howdy!

That's a toughie...

The problem is:

How do you get someone to adjust to something that
they don't even know is happening in the firstplace?

The only evidence we had (in my case) of absance seizures
was the fact that I got some "Daydreams during class."
Comments on my report card.

I fiercely denied the accusation... I never even knew that I
had missed a chunk of the lesson.

Unless somebody is specifically looking for absance seizures
they will probably either be missed altogether, or misinterprited
as daydreaming or something else.

Signature

Dave ©¿©
"Ego sum quis Ego sum quod ut est quicumque Ego sum"

http://www.howdydave.com


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