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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Epilepsy / July 2005

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What's more important -- Medical care of Aging Boomers or Upping a  National Debt?

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G.Ross - 14 Jul 2005 16:44 GMT
Below is a 'long'  ramble,  I started about 1+ hours ago, then tried to cut
down.  Some of the context might be mixed up or 'numbers'  lost accuracy
from my First Draft ramble, because of that cutting out of text to try make
this a little briefer !!  :-<
  If you want to comment or offer ideas on 'how we can pay for newer
improvements to healthcare for an Aging bunch of Baby Boomers, or help pay
for medications etc. within a larger population of Olde People,  cut out
whatever you don't need, when you reply.    Thanks.   G2R2. //

 I was going to append this onto thread above about 'Medical Bills'  re the
U.S. predicament about whether to help 'aging population'  of Baby Boomers
with Medication expenses (as more newer and expensive cures become
available),  *or kicking the (U.S.) National debt up above Half? a Trillion
Dollars for 300 Million people...  (If those numbers are right (I didn't
look them up),  that's a net debt per person of about 150,000 Dollars for
each person -- man, woman or child.  Does that make sense?  to still use a
model of 'deficit financing'  that was being discredited when I was taking
Economics 301 in 1965?  The idea at that time was that the Dollars paid back
are worth Less than the Borrowed Dollars because of Deflation of value of
the money.  Trouble was, it's Still 150,000 Dollars per person, whether it's
Deflated or not,  it's Still an unattainable amount when no steps are
started to pay it off. )
  Not being an American (except geographically),  I don't understand why
the 'population'  haven't been on their politician's 'case' about making
**more benefits available as *more and more of the 'median age'  moves
upward,  as us Baby Boomers start to retire.

  If the 'general tax rates'  for 'richer people ' (many of whom recently
appear to be due for Prison) were knocked up by 5-10%, the return to the Tax
Coffers from Their Incomes would be far larger than a 10% increase on e.g.
someone making less than $30,000 per year.   Since there are more Voters in
the latter income range, why aren't the laws of Income Balance more in
keeping with those who 'don't need that much money for food and clothes'  to
Transfer it (through the Tax System)  to people in the Bottom 20% of the
Income range?
   Doesn't it seem 'unfair'  (as described a few days ago in Dave's writeup
on Social Security etc.)  that someone with a Health or Age Need, should
have to run their Life Savings into the Ground (to Zero) before the
Government they've supported for 40, 50?  years looks around and says --  
"Oh, You.....  well I suppose You want some food, and pills.    Maybe we
could help.    Belch.....  "  (I get this picture of Jabba the Hut from Star
Wars 2? movie.   Did you ever wonder how much the 'Top 5%'   pay  for *their
pills? )
 You've got some of the Largest Corporations in the world, paying some of
the Lowest Proportional Taxes and deducting the price of Limos for the Board
/Chief Executives from their Gross Incomes, before their Corporation pays
into the 'kitty'.   How is that fair?
 I don't recall who said it but they said  'a country can be judged by how
it treats its sick, weaker or underpriviledged members'.   It matters little
that the latest Plane can 'hit a target' 300 miles away within 4 inches but
costs 20 Billion Dollars,  while people aren't able to care for themselves
or get a decent level of Medical Care if they drop by the wayside through no
fault of their own.

  One solution for the Health costs, might involve a 10-15% 'surtax'  on
Income Taxes above a basic Floor of e.g. $20,000  that would go into a
Health Provider Fund.  So if someone made $30,000 a year and the Taxes due
between 20 and 30K was e.g. $1500?  their Surtax would be $225. once a year
(15% of $1500).
  If 100 million people *had income in that range, that 100 million times
$225.  pays for a lot of Medicare (or whatever you want to call it),  Plus
paying down the Debt.  Incomes below a certain amount (above)  would pay *no
Extra Tax, so you don't penalize poorer people but give them the same
healthcare as someone richer.
   That was what 'proportional taxation' was supposed to do back in the
1930s when Truman or ?? first put it into place in the U.S.
  Mid-1960s was date Canada decided to put in 'Universal Health Care', and
still has it today.  Here 'we' are 40 years later, and the U.S. Still
doesn't have a health care plan?  I don't understand that.

 I don't understand why 'some people's Employees'  (the Politicians you
elected to office),  appear to be given such a Long Line to run with your
Money.  If Pensions, and Healthcare were moved to the Top of Priorities
above Martiniis, and Corporate Jets,  perhaps some of the 'frills'  (like a
Heart Bypass)  could be provided as part of a Bill of Rights for Citizens
who pay for these things.

Doesn't that make (some) sense? (funding model for aging population)  End
ramble.  G./
clyde asbury - 20 Jul 2005 17:51 GMT
"I don't understand why the 'population'  haven't been on their
politician's 'case' about making **more benefits available as *more and
more of the 'median age'  moves upward,  as us Baby Boomers start to
retire."

The answer is simple.  It's because socialized medicine doesn't work.

If you believe that socialized medicine is a great system, consider
this: most people don't even know what their doctor charges for an
office visit, but they know how much their co-pay is, and you can bet
they will scream if it increases by $5.00.

Again, socialized medicine doesn't work nearly as well as the free
market does in allocating who receives expensive treatments and who
doesn't.  If you still don't believe this, learn about TennCare.  It is
Tennessee's health care system, and it is the same sort of system
Hillary Clinton told Americans we needed in 1994.  TennCare's
"universal" health care has been in place for a decade, and in only those
few years, health care has consumed one-third of the entire Tennessee state
budget.  After not even coming close to delivering on its promises, the
program is now being significantly scaled back.

As far as the national debt is concerned, a little homework will reveal
that social security and other entitilement programs are a big reason
for the national debt in the first place.

Calling health care a "right" no more pays the bills for it than did
Bill Clinton's laughable "Health Care Bill of Rights."

Socialized health care means that politicians make health care decisions
for you instead of doctors.  It means waiting lists.   If Canada has
such a great health care system, then why can't they keep their doctors
from leaving?

Pay your own health care bills as much as possible and you will be
surprised at how much more active and involved you become in your health
in the process.  Take care of yourself and stop looking for someone else
to do it for you.
G.Ross - 20 Jul 2005 19:14 GMT
> "I don't understand why the 'population'  haven't been on their
> politician's 'case' about making **more benefits available as *more and
> more of the 'median age'  moves upward,  as us Baby Boomers start to
> retire."
>
> The answer is simple.  It's because socialized medicine doesn't work.

That's surprising,  the UK? and parts of Europe have had it for years.
Canada (you quote below) has had it since Lester Pearson was Prime Minister
(1963).    I'm surprised to hear it 'doesn't work'.  It has up until now.
  The reason for my post, and the news items being discussed at the moment,
is that the Baby Boomers (some of us here)  are due to turn 65 starting in
2008.   There will be an increase in demand on Health supports since most of
us are living longer. Formerly we'd 'drop dead' before we were in our mid
50s or 60s before innoculations, and other health care developments.
   A college friend of mine had Heart Bypass surgery about 5 years ago.
He's just found he has a form of Cancer in his Liver, that's somehow related
to his Heart thing above.  He's scheduled for surgery again in September.
  How much would those two operations cost in the US, and who'd have to pay
for those?

  How much is it going to cost him?  (His 'co-pay',  like mine, you mention
below, is *0 )  //

> If you believe that socialized medicine is a great system, consider
> this: most people don't even know what their doctor charges for an
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> market does in allocating who receives expensive treatments and who
> doesn't.
**** The only thing above assures?  is that the Rich survive, and people who
can't afford the surgery will die, if they can't mortgage their house to pay
for a 'surprise onset'  illness in their family?  With 10x Canada's
Population and 'economies of scale'  Economists advertise,  you should be
able to provide comparable or Better care, at Lower Net Cost, than we do
here.
 How does paying your Doctor 2-3x a 'going rate'  than if his salary was
capped,  cost you 'less'  without people dying from lack of access to a
Doctor?   There are many Doctors leaving Canada, to get Residencies in the
U.S.  to complete their degrees. (They're doing that since there's a
Shortage here of Doctors to Mentor the Residencies of the Trainees.)
 Once they're there, they are getting (U.S.) Cash, rather than a Capped
Income, so many of them stay there.   But the Net cost  (because you're
paying them more than other countries), means that Someone has to pay
that --> if it's not the governments paying and monitoring that,  those
costs get passed on->  to whom I wonder? //

 If you still don't believe this, learn about TennCare.  It is
> Tennessee's health care system, and it is the same sort of system
> Hillary Clinton told Americans we needed in 1994.  TennCare's
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> budget.  After not even coming close to delivering on its promises, the
> program is now being significantly scaled back.

**** Why not pay for Healthcare out of the Federal Tax system, rather than
at a State level?  Or have the Feds collect the taxes and allocate the
budget based on Population in each State?  That's how the system that 'won't
work' has been run in Canada since 1960s.   Each Province is responsible for
its own Healthcare system, and receives Federal Cash based on Population,
and possible no. of Doctors? (not sure).    Each Province doesn't collect
taxes to pay for healthcare, but has to meet minimum requirements and
standards agreed on between the 2 levels of Government..
   That is likely because of Quebec, who insisted in 1960s on having their
Own schools and healthcare-- in French.   So the Education and Healthcare
standards are set at our Federal Level, but the Spending and Running of
those 2 programs are done at the Provincial Level. /

> As far as the national debt is concerned, a little homework will reveal
> that social security and other entitilement programs are a big reason
> for the national debt in the first place.
*** The National Debt in many countries was created in the 1950s and 60s
when it was thought that Deficit Financing made sense, since the Repay cost
would be paid with Depreciated Dollars (or local currency).   Several
countries in Europe have little or no Deficits on their books, and are
funding their health and other programs without creating new debt.  I'm not
sure how New Zealand and Australia do their's.
  Canada has had a Balanced Budget for more than 12 years, and has been
paying down the National Debt that was created in the 1960s (mentioned
earlier)  at a slow but consistent pace.  So we may have a slightly higher
tax system than some other countries, but we have a combination of Public
Healthcare and Corporations who provide Pharma-care and Extended care
insurance as part of their **employee benefits, to employees.
    And without getting Wildly off topic,  'a little homework' (above)
would pick up a history book and see where the source of your Debt costs
are.  And it's not from tonsillitis. It started in Asia in the 1960s...   //

> Calling health care a "right" no more pays the bills for it than did
> Bill Clinton's laughable "Health Care Bill of Rights."
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> such a great health care system, then why can't they keep their doctors
> from leaving?
** No politician is involved in my Healthcare.  I can call my Family Dr. and
see him before the weekend.  (If I had called him this AM I'd have seen him
tonight as he works until 8 Wednesdays.  He works 9-5 Thurs. and leaves at
1PM Fridays for the weekend.)
Except for refilling (by phone) my prescriptions, which my *Neuro does
every 100 days, I haven't seen him since 1998.    With some changes we've
had in 2002, to see him again, I need a new 'referral slip'  from above
Family Dr.   I don't know if I'd have to go in in-person for that, or just
call the Family Dr. -- as I haven't had a seizure that required any Med.
changes since 1998.  /

> Pay your own health care bills as much as possible and you will be
> surprised at how much more active and involved you become in your health
> in the process.  Take care of yourself and stop looking for someone else
> to do it for you.

Advice above doesn't apply.   "Pull up your socks" only works for school
kids.  I'm beginning to doubt you've ever been into Emerg. unconscious after
a seizure.  The first 2-3 I had in 1993 I was in hospital 2-3 days before I
even knew where I was.    If they're standing, waiting on my Visa Card
before they admit someone in that condition,  I don't call that 'Health
Care'.
 (They got Medical Info. + Doctor and Family contacts from my 'Medic Alert'
bracelet.)     /
clyde asbury - 21 Jul 2005 05:30 GMT
"No politician is involved in my Health care. "

This from Readers Digest:
Canada’s doctor shortage is partly rooted in a 1991 report commissioned
by the provincial deputy ministers of health. In that document, Morris
Barer and Greg Stoddart, two health economists, predicted that Canada
was facing a physician surplus. In response, provincial governments,
scrambling to save money, cut first-year enrollment to Canadian medical
schools by about ten percent. Dr. Andrew Cave, an associate professor in
the Department of Family Medicine at the University of Alberta in
Edmonton, says, “Despite the predictions of the gurus ten years ago, in
fact, we need more doctors.”

http://www.readersdigest.ca/mag/2004/08/doctors.html

"How does paying your Doctor 2-3x a 'going rate'  than if his salary was
capped,  cost you 'less'  without people dying from lack of access to a
Doctor?"

If you knew anything of economic history, you wouldn't suggest
salary caps.  Believe it or not, economics applies to health care.
Whenever and wherever caps are put in place it leads to deterioration of
the product or service offered.

Recognizing that lessons of basic economics don't disappear
in the health care realm is not the same as abandonment without medical
care - although socialists like to characterize it that way.  County
hospitals in the US routinely treat patients with little or no
financial resources, many of them critically ill and/or unconscious.

You say "no politician is involved in your health care."  Who do you
think sets the caps?

Read the above excerpt.  Provincial governments - politicians - cut
enrollment in Canadian medical schools.

You may think you're doing fine with your doctor, but plenty of other
Canadians can't even find one.
G.Ross - 21 Jul 2005 19:02 GMT
Use a full quote if you can, wrt snips,  so context doesn't get lost.  This
is what you said -->
> Socialized health care means that politicians make health care decisions
> for you instead of doctors.  **It means waiting lists**.   **If Canada has
> such a great health care system, then **why can't they keep their doctors
> from leaving?

(**I had replied to above, which you Then  **cut out, but left Above.  I had
written --> )
*G* No politician is involved in my Healthcare.  I can call my Family Dr.
and
see him before the weekend.  (If I had called him this AM I'd have seen him
tonight as he works until 8 Wednesdays.  He works 9-5 Thurs. and leaves at
1PM Fridays for the weekend.)

> "No politician is involved in my Health care. "
>
> This from Readers Digest:
G. --  (Readers Digest is not one of our most 'in depth' information
sources... :-<  Try either Time, Newsweek (U.S.), or Canada's newest now
"The Walrus"  for current opinion on Politics and Social Events in Canada --  
I don't know if http://walrusmagazine.com  will let you in to read through
it or if that's the subscriber's route.  I just subscribed so got the last 3
issues (5 months) in 3 days.
**If I **see an article** on "Medical Editorials" wrt **Canada Med. Systems
or related,  I'll post its www link later.  When I subscribed I wanted a
Magazine that didn't get over-run with 'Sociology according to the Oval
Office', regarding world events.   But I hadn't noticed (so far) any
articles in it, particularly about our health care system.  Strange, if it's
in so much  trouble,  but I'll have a look.
   So far as I know, both Newsweek and Time have a Canadian version, that
overlaps some U.S.  articles, but adds articles specific to regions within
Canada too.  <I think that gets them some kind of tax break too wrt. the
Goods and Services Tax on Magazines here>    )

> Canada’s doctor shortage is partly rooted in a 1991 report commissioned
> by the provincial deputy ministers of health. In that document, Morris
*********** G-  I'm not sure what above means.  'The Provincial Deputy
Ministers'  implies that ALL 10 of the Provinces (at that time, there are 12
now),  simultaneously commissioned that Report.   Normally,  I'd have
expected the Federal (Canada) Government to commission reports like that,
and share the results with them.  But Alberta (for one) and some others have
gone off, to show their 'independence'  and commissioned their own studies.
A Company I once worked for had Departments who did that too.   It cost the
Corporation $$$ for them to do that since they weren't the ones who
ultimately had the Major money to invest in a Mega-project, but only had
budgets to run their own shop floor.   But on occasion either Ontario,
Alberta or Quebec find a model that works within the Federal Healthcare
system and it gets adapted for that.

  (Our original Healthcare system, in 1965, didn't include Pharmacare for
Seniors, Chiropractic care, Homeopathy, or "out of province care" as parts
of what we accept now as 'medical care' in their costs.  A system will
evolve over time, as new services are needed or added.  I'm sure there are
places where one service is not always provided nearby, or towns without
enough General Practitioners within a reasonable distance for their ease of
access and *local population size.
   Our main Population demographic is more than 70% within 300 miles
(400km) of the Canada/ US Border.  Moving south that same distance ends
about the top of Colorado. The predominant density is East /West.  The
remainder of our population is then North of that to the Arctic Ocean.
   Also our Population is just over 33? Million,  about 1/10th? the size of
the U.S.  If economies of scale could be applied anywhere it should be south
of here.  No? )

> Barer and Greg Stoddart, two health economists, predicted that Canada
> was facing a physician surplus. In response, provincial governments,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Edmonton, says, “Despite the predictions of the gurus ten years ago, in
> fact, we need more doctors.”
**** I don't know why he wouldn't have known that.  Economics 301 course I
took in 1964, 200 miles south of him,  had a model of what's happening now
as us 'Baby Boomers'  drag the systems and businesses along with us as we
age.  Everything from Car design, fashions, food styles, where we vacation,
what we buy and read, drags the Main Demographics along to wherever we go.
If we all started using Hoola Hoops,  they'd be back on the Store shelves by
Sept. 1.  :-<

> http://www.readersdigest.ca/mag/2004/08/doctors.html

G. So they cut enrolments (incorrectly 10 years ago), according to the
quoted article?  My Neuro told me (in 1994) about a pending Neurologist
shortage because of limits on time the Current Neuro population have
available to mentor Training and support of Med. School Neuro Students.
(You cut that out too, but I'm in Ontario whose Med. budget and practices
might be similar to Alberta, but has more Densely populated Cities, larger
hospitals and more specialists because of our Population size than anywhere
'up here' except for Quebec (another large Province).
  The Neurologists (we were discussing) are the ones who treat Epilepsy,
Dementia, and other illnesses associated with an aging 'Baby Boom'
following WW II who will reach 65 in 2008-2010.

> "How does paying your Doctor 2-3x a 'going rate'  than if his salary was
> capped,  cost you 'less'  without people dying from lack of access to a
> Doctor?"

> Below was your reply, ie not G --> If you knew anything of economic
> history, you wouldn't suggest
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> care - although socialists like to characterize it that way.  County
> hospitals in the US routinely treat patients with little or no
************************************************
> financial resources, many of them critically ill and/or unconscious.
******************

G.  You didn't say who pays for those, above.  Is that User Pay?  or is it
funded Federally? In other words, where do they pay Doctors/Nurses  with
'little or no resources'?  /

> You say "no politician is involved in your health care."  Who do you
> think sets the caps?
  The caps are set by the Medical "Gurus"  based on the Province-wide
budgets they get from the Federal Government.  The Politician is involved in
so far as their over-restricting budgets can bleed out the services the
Medics are able to provide.   The do not tell the Medical Colleges etc. how
to spend the allotted funds.

G.->   *If that's what happened in the US,  *that's not the Fault of the
Doctors,  it's the Fault of the 'suits' in DC, or at State level, who
haven't read Jared Diamond, Malcolm Gladwell, or other people who study
Demographics and effects on Populations that are aging, faster than Younger
people might be able to pay for.
  *No one in Canada is "Abandoned without medical care". I don't know the
Editors who currently run Readers Digest and haven't read it for years.
While some of their (independent) sources may research and have information
that is valid or useful,  it didn't appear to have information that reflects
what's currently being used in Eastern Canada.  And I have relatives who've
needed the health care systems in both Alberta and British Columbia during
the last year (West Canada).
> Read the above excerpt.  Provincial governments - politicians - cut
> enrollment in Canadian medical schools.
>
> You may think you're doing fine with your doctor, but plenty of other
> Canadians can't even find one.

  I'm aware how Canada works.  The shortages of Doctors are listed in my
earlier post (you cut out) about number of spaces as the Baby Boom Bubble
hits and Doctors available for residency spots onshore stay limited.   Those
weren't Cut,  the threshold is the result of  the demographics of the Baby
Boomers hitting the Older parts of the system, and part of the younger
graduates (needing residency experience to complete their degrees) moving to
the U.S.
  That 'Bubble' in the Population size, needing care,  is the same here as
in Europe or the U.S. We have a 'bubble' of Olde people (Baby Boomers)
retiring, including part of the *Doctors we use.
 We're changing certification rules for Offshore Doctors, to try match
their Home Country's Schools with our standards.

  And most of our 'underserviced'  population, some of the surveys don't
show, are in cities or towns far from the Larger Cities. Lots of Doctors
*want to work in Vancouver, Toronto or Montreal.  Not a lot want to work in
Red Deer, Moosejaw or Kamloops. Those are the Towns and Cities where a lot
of the offshore Doctors are choosing to work as they are approved to
practice here.
  It's in the smaller centres where economies of scale can't pay for MRIs
or CT machines yet, and similarly a 'Neuro Centre' wouldn't be viable in
North Bay or Iqualuit until the population rises to some basic level that
would justify that much support  (I seem to recall 2-300,000 needed for
one.).

 You're not suggesting that a 'private'  clinic is Chaffing to open in
Rainbow Lake, Churchill Falls, and Lilluette are you?
   They want to Skim off the Profit areas, and leave the 'chaff' to what's
left of the other systems.  So the less profitable services, like kids
health,  innoculations, or chronic care get dropped onto the Public system,
after the Profit centres have been pulled out.   No wonder it would
collapse.     / G.
G.Ross - 21 Jul 2005 22:16 GMT
> "No politician is involved in my Health care. "
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Read the above excerpt.  Provincial governments - politicians - cut
****************************************
> enrollment in Canadian medical schools.
>
> You may think you're doing fine with your doctor, but plenty of other
> Canadians can't even find one.

G.- I also read the ~60 Replies to the article (logged at end of it).
Several physicians have posted there about comparing Dr Qualifications in
other countries vs. 'here',  and why they agree but want Re-testing, as part
of the qualification process.  I can't see why that would be a problem to
make sure than a particular specialist has the same baseline training as
each other.
   We do it for Engineers and other professions.   /
clyde asbury - 22 Jul 2005 12:59 GMT
> G.- I also read the ~60 Replies to the article (logged at end of it).
>  Several physicians have posted there about comparing Dr
> Qualifications in other countries vs. 'here',  and why they agree but
>  want Re-testing, as part of the qualification process.  I can't see
>  why that would be a problem to make sure than a particular
> specialist has the same baseline training as each other.

The problem is that many patients still don't have doctors, and this is
a direct result of salary caps.

By the way, why do you put words in quotations for no apparent reason,
such as 'here'  ?  Practically every sentence you write one such word,
and some sentences have more.  If there is more that needs to be said,
such as where here is, then say it.  If you're quoting someone, who is it?

Do you "understand" ?
G.Ross - 22 Jul 2005 13:41 GMT
>> G.- I also read the ~60 Replies to the article (logged at end of it).
>>  Several physicians have posted there about comparing Dr Qualifications
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Do you "understand" ?

  Ummm,   that would be my news server.   I'll have a word with it,   O/.k?
clyde asbury - 22 Jul 2005 22:55 GMT
> "clyde asbury" <call.it.sleep@intrstar.net> wrote in message

>> By the way, why do you put words in quotations for no apparent
>> reason, such as 'here'  ?  Practically every sentence you write one
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Ummm,   that would be my news server.   I'll have a word with it,
> O/.k?

Your news server puts quotations around words.  OK.   I guess it
couldn't be that you overuse quotations and use your news server as a
scapegoat.  I omitted the word "has" in the second sentence, above.
That was my mistake, but I should probably blame Canada.

Anyway, you said earlier that you haven't seen your doctor since 1998.
That seems like a very long time to go without even a routine checkup.
I doubt there are many in the US whose doctors allow 6 or 7 years to
pass without a visit.  Even routine physical exams by general
practitioners here are done annually.  Maybe your doctor is extremely
busy.  I wonder if Canada's shortage of physicians has anything to do
with that.
G.Ross - 22 Jul 2005 14:45 GMT
>> G.- I also read the ~60 Replies to the article (logged at end of it).
>>  Several physicians have posted there about comparing Dr Qualifications
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Do you "understand" ?

Check this out.   This is a reply I did earlier to 'ole'  on another thread.
His doesn't have the Quotes you're concerned about over-using.  (Also from
me). And he was  replying to someone Earlier.  The Earlier Poster's text
prefixes with >>s,  ****ole's with >s (ONE only)  and mine without a prefix.
   It would appear that Your Server puts those in, since some of the others
I reply to don't have those?
   Or is it a function of your or him not using XP2?  Most of my Windows
stuff messages have blank line start for current reply I do, replying to
someone (whose text is prefixed *line by line with >), who replied to
someone older and whose post prefix shows >>,  back one more >>>   etc.
Some of the message threads, depending how long they go (on XP2?),  can have
up to 5 or 6 of those.   G./

  My older reply to him -- find any "s here, except whomever put it on
gomper at top  -->

> Jim Garland wrote:
>> Hi
>>  I have been taking tegritol for over 15years and I too often have what I
>> refer to as my tegritol FOG!!

*** Hi, the history file for this thread has dropped off my server.  Did
<-  This is **ME to him

they give you a 'name' for the 'Seizure Type' when they first prescribed the
Tegretol (usually XR, CR, or Retard) ?   Usually that's prescribed for
Complex Partial (formerly Temporal Lobe) based seizures. Some symptoms (like
the 'fog')  can be part of the seizure *type, *or can come during periods
where dose level is temporarily higher in the blood?  That's why the CR
versions are often used now, since they can use a lower dose, taken at a
consistent rate, each day.   That keeps blood level stable if they can
manage that.
  (Some things interfere with Tegretol.  The Pharmacy should have included
those, or there's a Med. Glossary under the U.S. Ep. Foundation site
http://efa.org  .  You either type in the Name, or scroll to the med., click
Find or Search, to get a one page printable page. *Grapefruit Juice has an
acid in it that interferes with Tegretol levels that's not in other juices
usually.  And Alcohol can interfere with some people's blood levels, by
flushing the med. faster than expected under normal use.  I found I got the
'fog'  sensations during periods when I was above my Therapeutic level,
until we found one that worked. A 'drunken' sensation can come from the same
cause. )  /

>>   My symptoms are more severe if I am run down or tired...or Stressed!!!
>> <--- him
*** Being over-tired or under stress can lower our seizure threshold (for CP
<--- me
Seizures at least) and allow a szr. to happen more easily.   During some of
those times, it's the fatigue that makes the szrs. easier to happen and not
necessarily *just  whatever the Medication is that we're using.  /

>>  I often have trouble focusing and jump quickly from one thing to the
>> <-- 2 generations back
>> other and forget like crazy...plus slurred speech and tired as hell.>
*** Slurred speech used to mean the Blood Level is temporarily too High.
<--   me
That's why the CR or XR is often used to try balance the levels.
**Forgetting things may be a product of damage or seizures happening in one
of the *Temporal Lobes of the Brain.   (That's the short-term memory buffer
where new learning goes first before it gets stored into longer term memory.
So the *forgetting part can be a part of the original cause of the szrs. and
not always due to the Med.)  /    /end me to here so far/

>>  So yes all of the symptoms that you mentioned are what at least this
>> <-- him
>> tegritol user gets..and I never had these prior to being **diagnosed and
>> medicated!
** See para. above -- *could they be from the *cause, I listed, and not
<--- me
necessarily the Med.? /

> Hi. I also used to have those                                  <---  
> someone One generation back in thread
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> wish, 3: Tegretol made these changes in me, and they will never go away
> again.)
*** Not being a Dr., just someone using Tegretol CR for Complex Partial
<--- me
seizures,  I'd vote for *2 in your list.   *Neither of your meds. (in my
opinion)  is Causing the symptoms, but may be reducing the number of
seizures you are having?   I've never seen any writeups 'here' since 1998
where Tegretol 'caused'  the problems.    But what if you had the Symptoms
FIRST and *neither Tegretol nor your Orfiril is *yet giving you 100%
control?   Could it be that too?
   Are you getting More control (so *less seizures per month?)  than you
had Before you were using those?  My seizures (especially what I called the
'surprise ones'  that would come on with No Aura or warning like I had when
first Diagnosed 1993-5)  went down from 8-10 per month to 2-3, to one each
2-3 months,  to less frequent.
   With the CR version and a second med.  I was told to 'hope for'  2-3
seizures or *less a month.  Last 2 I had were Dec. 1997,  June 1998.   As I
got near the 'target' dose for my type of szr. and metabolism,  I also had
less and less Auras (I hated Worse! since they often meant a szr. was on the
way),  and haven't had any that I can remember for several years now.
(Auras are a dizzy swirling feeling, sometimes with a Deja Vu or Jamais Vu
feeling, where you can feel strangely out of balance but not collapse during
them.)

<snipped out 5-6 paragraphs not needed> /G

Me continued -->
   I get the odd 'mood swing'  when the weather is changing (air pressure
dropping as storms move in),  but those are less extreme too.
   (I mostly wanted to repeat the Grapefruit thing, plus Alcohol, using
*Tegretol since those had not been included in my Druggist's Warnings at the
time (they are now since I took them printouts I had found 'here' or on
internet searches I did then.   I *don't know anything about things that
might interfere with Orfiril Retard--  if it's *not listed on the efa.org
site mentioned above, see if there's a 'Pharmacist's name'  printed on the
Prescription Bottle to try.  Tegretol, for example, is Carbamazepine in a
Pharmacy Directory if it's not found using 'Tegretol'.  OR ask your Pharmacy
if they have a Printout or Website they can give you for your particular
pills.   )
  I hope that might be of use.  (*Note spelling of Tegretol if you want to
search that name.) G./

> cheers,
> ole k
clyde asbury - 23 Jul 2005 01:47 GMT
> It would appear that Your Server puts those [quotations] in, since
> some of the others I reply to don't have those?

You have got to be kidding, G.  A news server would not put quotations
around some words within sentences and not others.   Besides, you may
put quotations in some messages but not others depending on the content.
 It sounds to me like you're trying to create the impression that you
haven't used scare quotes at all.

Below are just a few examples of "[My] Server" inserting
quotations in your writing.

Several physicians have posted there about comparing Dr Qualifications
in other countries vs. 'here',  and why they agree but want Re-testing,
as part of the qualification process.

(Readers Digest is not one of our most 'in depth' information
sources...

had a model of what's happening now as us 'Baby Boomers'  drag

it's the Fault of the 'suits' in DC

You're not suggesting that a 'private'  clinic

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