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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Epilepsy / June 2005

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grand mal seizure question

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twiggyfr3ak - 11 Jun 2005 07:50 GMT
Hi.. i suffered for what i believed a grand mal seizure this gone monday for
2hrs then on wednesday for 1.5hrs .. It started in my right arm and just
spread rapidly into my whole body.. i was taken into hospital on the monday
and they just turned round and said, 'we don't know what caused it..we don't
think it was a seizure because you weren't unconsious you can go home now'
That was all they said to me. I didn't see much point in going in on the
wednesday.
I already have complex partials from 1-4 a week. Could this have been
epilepsy or could it have been something else? Has anyone else had the same
or simlar thing happen? Thanks.

Melx
Dave ©¿©¬ - 11 Jun 2005 17:57 GMT
Howdy Melx!

Sounds to me as if you are just developing a new type of seizure.

HOWEVER...

I would be VERY concerned about how long your grand mal (aka: tonic-clonic)
seizures last!!!

There is nothing the hospital can do for you once your seizure has passed
but if it lasts longer than 20 minutes there could be severe complications
and they can give you something to arrest the seizure.

Ask your doctor about "status seizures." I carry around some little pills to
be taken only if I have a status seizure. It is stuck under the tongue (same
as they do with nitro for heart patients.)

Signature

Dave ©¿©¬

http://www.howdydave.com

> Hi.. i suffered for what i believed a grand mal seizure this gone monday for
> 2hrs then on wednesday for 1.5hrs .. It started in my right arm and just
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Melx
G.Ross - 11 Jun 2005 21:35 GMT
 When you ask your Doctor about the tablets Howdy mentioned (likely Atavan
= Lorazepam) and if they'd work for you (they do for Complex Partial
Seizures that I had),  ask the Doctor if you can go to *another hospital
next time.
   The one you went to is potentially dangerous to return to.  A Simple
Partial seizure and a nearly controlled Complex Partial seizure wouldn't end
in loss of consciousness, so they're wrong.
  If they ran no other tests on you, like an EEG or even an MRI (Magnetic
Resonance Image), they can't say what they did with any reliability.  (The
MRI will only detect damage if there's any there, in the brain, and an EEG
can only detect erratic electric activity if they can get it to happen
during the test.  But this place didn't even try any of those?  they just
gave you a diagnosis that's no better than someone on a street corner could
have given you. )
  They should have known that a Simple Partial seizure or a milder Complex
Partial (for 2) could happen without loss of awareness, if they were
competent.  And I don't understand if you're having seizures of the
***length you listed below, and the *frequency (number each week),   why
your Doctor or Neurologist isn't taking more aggressive action with Pills or
?? that would control the amount of seizures you're having.

 I'd try another Emerg. Room next time.  I'd also be concerned if the
seizures are repeatedly lasting that long too.   I didn't have awareness
during the ones I had, but assume none of them lasted more than 10-15
minutes before I lost consciousness.  And I only had a total of about 8-10?
over a 3 year period as we adjusted pills to a dose level that finally gave
me full control.    I had about 2 seizures following that, over the next ~10
years, from 1996 to now.

  Has your Doctor or Neurologist ever said why they thought the seizures
were happening or why they started ?  Maybe if we knew why your's might have
started, others here might have some ideas of things to try, or how hard
they'd be to control.
G./

> Hi.. i suffered for what i believed a grand mal seizure this gone monday
> for
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> or simlar thing happen? Thanks.
> Melx
twiggyfr3ak - 12 Jun 2005 16:06 GMT
Hi, thanks for your replies. I was concerned too about the lack of assesment
they did. My specialist has put me on his emergancy list as he is worried
about the length and all that. But even he said he didn't think it was a
seizure. If it happens again. How long do you think i should leave it before
someone takes me to the A + E dept? Next time i will go to a different
hospital. I am taking lamictal at the max dose but it caused me to have
major itching.. no rash tho.. so i took it down myself only a little ages
ago.. and it took the itching away a bit.. it really was unbarable. I looked
like i had fleas.. lol. My specialist said it it didn't work with the
Lamictal then i would switch to Keppra(sp?) Until december to see how it
would change. I'm actually really scared to go out my room. Because we have
stairs in our house i fell from the second step last monday.
It took the doctor about 30mins to actually see me.. by then is wasn't too
bad. And she pretty much had no clue. Like she looked in a text book just
before she saw me. U know?
I will be asking alot of questions i think.. i am having an appointment on
the 22nd of this month.
Thanks alot for advice.
Melx

>   When you ask your Doctor about the tablets Howdy mentioned (likely Atavan
> = Lorazepam) and if they'd work for you (they do for Complex Partial
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> > or simlar thing happen? Thanks.
> > Melx
G.Ross - 12 Jun 2005 16:41 GMT
 There are a bunch of safety pages on Julie's Idaho (U.S.) website, that
includes some first aid pages.  Based on those and other posts here over
last 3-4 years, I thought your Dr. was waiting too long between a seizure
start and deciding if an emergency service should be called.
    These pages at least give you first level First Aid steps that might
work and an indication of Current North America levels where an Emergency is
declared and help is called for.
   Note on any of the pages, at top left corner there's a 'Print this Page'
button you can click on that will change the page to Plain Text with black
text on White Background.
   The First Aid page that refers to quicker response than your Dr. or
Hospital indicated is page 2 here or page 3.
   The Main Safety site at Idaho U.S. is
http://www.epilepsyidaho.org/safety/
You can move around the site from there by clicking onto Next or specific
buttons within a page if there are coloured links.

   The *2 Safety Pages I wanted you to see are -->
http://www.epilepsyidaho.org/safety3.htm  ,  *and
http://www.epilepsyidaho.org/safety2.htm  .

NOTE on one of those pages it says something like "if the seizure repeats or
exceeds 5? minutes, call for Medical help. "    That *used to be if the
seizure exceeds *10 minutes but was changed about 1999.    That's why I
wondered why they'd be so much more 'lax'  over there, in calling an
Emergency Situation something that needs attention.    Within some of the
general sites or the Ep. Foundation Main site?   http://efa.org    -- One of
them said that the Sooner that First aid or Emergency aid can be rendered,
the less chance of Risk or Complications there was...

    Note on those sites that nowhere does it say to "leave a  patient on a
gurney for 30 minutes til you get around to looking at their problem".
That wouldn't be acceptable for a Heart Attack or Stroke, and until they've
done an assessment, they can't tell if it was a Seizure or one of those two.
   I put ***s below where you listed the way hospital you went to reacted
to your potential seizures..     G./

> Hi, thanks for your replies. I was concerned too about the lack of
> assesment
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>> next time.
>>     The one you went to is potentially dangerous to return to.  A Simple
************************************************
>> Partial seizure and a nearly controlled Complex Partial seizure wouldn't
>> end
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>>
>>   I'd try another Emerg. Room next time.  I'd also be concerned if the
**********************************************************
>> seizures are repeatedly lasting that long too.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>> > for 2hrs then on wednesday for 1.5hrs .. It started in my right arm and
>> > just
***********************************
>> > spread rapidly into my whole body.. i was taken into hospital on the
>> > monday
>> > and they just turned round and said, 'we don't know what caused it..we
>> > don't
****************************************************************
>> > think it was a seizure because you weren't unconsious you can go home
>> > now'
******************************************************************

>> > That was all they said to me. I didn't see much point in going in on
>> > the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> > or simlar thing happen? Thanks.
>> > Melx
twiggyfr3ak - 12 Jun 2005 18:14 GMT
Thank you for the links i found them very useful. I have a 'q' about the
consciousness and tonic clonic seizures if thats what it is. Because i can't
find anything about it on websites that say you can be conscious during. Any
help or links would be very useful. Thx.
Melx
--------------------------
>   There are a bunch of safety pages on Julie's Idaho (U.S.) website, that
> includes some first aid pages.  Based on those and other posts here over
[quoted text clipped - 121 lines]
> >> > or simlar thing happen? Thanks.
> >> > Melx
G.Ross - 12 Jun 2005 22:25 GMT
 The reason you probably can't find a lot on Tonic Clonic type seizures is
that is an older name, not often used in most countries or sites any longer.
I think it was posted elsewhere earlier this week that what was once called
'Tonic Clonic'  are now grouped  in Grand Mal seizures.  If you go to efa
site below, or the first aid sites I listed earlier, compare the symptoms of
a GM seizure to ones you were experiencing.   There might be more
information under that name that would help you.
   So far as I know the only seizures where someone stays conscious, (as
opposed to lying on the floor unconscious),  are the Petit Mal or milder
Grand mal phases?   When a Complex Partial or a Grand mal becomes a full
seizure (Generalizes), they usually?  proceed to loss of awareness, and
then unconsciousness?
    *My seizures are Complex Partial (formerly called Temporal Lobe,  years
ago),  so others here might have more information specific to **Grand Mal
types of szrs.
.
    I did find description of symptoms that may be common to each of the
seizure types on both the First Aid for Seizures addresses I posted earlier
today  (where it describes what someone does during each type of seizure
onset),  and under some of the topics within the U.S. Ep. Foundation of
America site that I posted earlier on this thread -->  http://efa.org   has
separate sections on either seizure types, symptoms, medications used for
various types and other subtopics. Have a look at Grand Mal to see if some
of those include what you're experiencing.    G./
( I added 2 Paragraphs at ***s below, about 10 paragraphs down, about your
Rash, that I didn't see on my earlier reply.  ) //

> Thank you for the links i found them very useful. I have a 'q' about the
> consciousness and tonic clonic seizures if thats what it is. Because i
[quoted text clipped - 67 lines]
>> > looked
>> > like i had fleas.. lol.
*********  I didn't see this above earlier.   I'm not a Doctor, unless
someone else has used that pill with this as only a passing symptom,  that
Rash could have been an Allergic Reaction, and the Dr. should have likely
started to get rid of it and switch you to something else, or perhaps his
reducing the dose level will get rid of the symptom.

 (I forgot to look at your timezone -- are you in N.Zealand or
ustralia?  -- I'm just listening to a phone-in show here on 'future of
Canada's healthcare system and what to do'  and someone just called in about
how above 2 country's systems are 'collapsing'  since there aren't enough
trained Doctors without being near their patient quotas, because there are
more people on waiting lists than Doctors to service their needs, and not
enough Specialists completing University training to keep up with the
population growth and increase of patient base. //

My specialist said it it didn't work with the
>> > Lamictal then i would switch to Keppra(sp?) Until december to see how
>> > it
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>> >> wouldn't end
>> >> in loss of consciousness, so they're wrong.

>> >>    If they ran no other tests on you, like an EEG or even an MRI
>> >> (Magnetic Resonance Image), they can't say what they did with any
>> >> reliability  (The MRI will only detect damage if there's any there, in
>> >> the brain, and an EEG can only detect erratic electric activity if
>> >> they can get it to happen
during the test.  But this place didn't even try any of those?  they just
gave you a diagnosis that's no better than someone on a street corner could
have given you. )
>> >>    They should have known that a Simple Partial seizure or a milder
>> >> Complex
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>> >> > or simlar thing happen? Thanks.
>> >> > Melx>
twiggyfr3ak - 13 Jun 2005 00:05 GMT
Hi, i am in england. I had an appointment in march this year and the next
nearest appoint. that was available was in december!.. which i thought was
crazy. When i phoned him about my seizure activity, he put me on his
emergancy list. So i take it they leave a oucple gaps in the appointments
just in case. But i still think the waiting time is unbelievable (sp?).

-------------------------------
>   The reason you probably can't find a lot on Tonic Clonic type seizures is
> that is an older name, not often used in most countries or sites any longer.
[quoted text clipped - 182 lines]
> >> >> > or simlar thing happen? Thanks.
> >> >> > Melx>
G.Ross - 13 Jun 2005 04:28 GMT
 I think most of the links I gave you earlier are still *o.k., although
some of the Language used might be a *little different in England vs. North
America.  You'd like be able to understand all the information on the sites
as they are.
  There *was a UK people support epilepsy group at end of 1990s
(uk.people.support.epilepsy) that I used to read as well as this
International Group, but the UK one got ruptured (at the time) along with
*All the uk.people.support.*  sites by a guy who had a Robot Harvester
picking up addresses to Resell.   I don't know if Marland has left there or
not, I never resubscribed after about 1998 or 9, since the extra work to
discard the chaff he attracted wasn't worth the time to try post on that
group.  I had met a couple of fellows who I had thought were coming to This
Group, but I haven't seen them here since I bought this new computer, and
left their addresses on the old one.

  **THIS Group is an International one, and if you don't get an answer to
any questions you have from Europe or UK when you post them, you'll often
get some help from North or South America or New Zealand and Australia over
the next *2 days.   I think it's *better because of the mix of participants.
Maybe I'm just biased.
   Re below waiting time.   Canada is starting to get *somewhat longer too,
although not *that long yet.   It makes you wonder, though, what it'll be
like in 3-4 years when us 'Baby Boomers'  all start to Retire and put a Full
Load on the Systems, in our respective Countries,  doesn't it ??  :-<    G./

> Hi, i am in england. I had an appointment in march this year and the next
> nearest appoint. that was available was in december!.. which i thought was
[quoted text clipped - 181 lines]
>> >> >> Simple Partial seizure and a nearly controlled Complex Partial
>> >> >> seizure
********************************************************
>> >> >> shouldn't end in loss of consciousness, so they're wrong (my
>> >> >> opinion).
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>> gave you a diagnosis that's no better than someone on a street corner
>> could have given. )

>> >> >>    They should have known that a Simple Partial seizure or a milder
>> >> >> Complex
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>> >> >> > or simlar thing happen? Thanks.
>> >> >> > Melx>
Dave ©¿©¬ - 13 Jun 2005 06:22 GMT
Howdy!

For UK information, take a look at:

The Global Epilepsy Network:
http://www.theterranetwork.com/E/integramod/index.php

and

Epilepsy Forum (NSE)
http://www.epilepsyforum.org.uk/

Signature

Dave ©¿©¬

http://www.howdydave.com

Julie - 15 Jun 2005 05:37 GMT
>   The reason you probably can't find a lot on Tonic Clonic type seizures is
> that is an older name, not often used in most countries or sites any longer.
> I think it was posted elsewhere earlier this week that what was once called
> 'Tonic Clonic'  are now grouped  in Grand Mal seizures.

Gordon, I must have missed that discussion.  I was under the impression that
Grand Mal was the older terminology which is now called Tonic Clonic.
Julie
G.Ross - 15 Jun 2005 06:33 GMT
>>   The reason you probably can't find a lot on Tonic Clonic type seizures
>> is
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Grand Mal was the older terminology which is now called Tonic Clonic.
> Julie

  I guess we'll have to go look at the efa.org site unless Dr. Bob is still
around.  I had been told at first (1993) that my szrs. were Tonic Clonic,
then 6 months later that they were Complex Partial (Temporal Lobe), likely
after they had run the EEGs and MRIs -- Then somewhere around there  I got
the 1st computer.   One of the groups (this one or the uk one I read at that
time),  I had thought someone posted about 'Tonic Clonic' being Grand Mal
equivalent.

   Anyway, that's why I posted that to the new person who was having
trouble finding information on T.Clonic seizures on network searches...   If
it's still a valid term your Doctor is using,  maybe they'll still be
reading here,  since I suggested they look at either the US Ep. Foundation
Glossary site http://efa.org   *or to try Grand Mal and see if the symptoms
looked like their's.
   It would be handy to know (for me) which is which and which is obsolete
(if any), so we can direct new people to correct sites...   For some of
these I've gone to your First Aid for seizures site, just to compare
symptoms described there vs. what they described on the Group had happened.
*********
   I had also done an older post about my Frisium pills ( = Clobazam)
being replaced by a Generic in Canada by my Insurer.    Except for a couple
of unrelated posts that didn't involve someone using Frisium,  wrt.  whether
Generics were reliable,  I only remembered that Dr. Bob (2001-3) had said he
always wrote 'no substitutions'  when he did prescriptions.   I'll know in
'100' days if the Pharmacy got my Insurer to 'back off' and cover the (80%)
costs of my patented pill,  instead of the Generic.   Since the reduced
amount they paid last refill doubled my costs to 40% ($36.) instead of 20% I
usually pay to my Insurer of the Full Prescription cost,  I *might try the
Generic in Sept. if my Grandchild is born by then...
   I really **don't like my Insurance Company telling me how my Medical
Treatment should be handled  -- I Emailed my Employer (I'm retired from) to
tell them what their Insurance Provider is doing, in case others haven't
told them about the reply they sent Direct to my Pharmacy about 'which
pills' they'd cover and which they wouldn't.  Since I wasn't aware they had
become licenced to practice Medicine in Ontario,  I didn't think they should
be providing Medical consultations to my Pharmacist about which pills would
work.
   That was pre-occupying me when I did the earlier post, but thought I had
still given correct information.    If it's not (correct),  I'd still like
to know so I can update my own understanding of this stuff.  //      G./
G.Ross - 15 Jun 2005 15:01 GMT
>>   The reason you probably can't find a lot on Tonic Clonic type seizures
>> is
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Grand Mal was the older terminology which is now called Tonic Clonic.
> Julie

  I looked down http://efa.org  and did a search on Tonic Clonic, it went
into Google (that might be a function of my Cable Internet link),  and
pulled in about 30+ articles, some that link them both like you posted,
some that are shorter articles (not dated?) but that still used just the TC
label but not the other ones we usually use 'around here'.
   First one, if it fits, is at http://www.epilepsyfoundation.org site,  if
it doesn't fit whole line here -->
http://www.epilepsyfoundation.org/answerplace/Medical/seizures/types/genConvulsi
ve/seizuretonic.cfm

   *Just fit on the one line with text size I use.   G./
Chris Lesurf - 18 Jun 2005 07:57 GMT
I didn't think the terms 'Grand Mal' and 'Petit Mal' were fashionable any
more. I call mine major fits and complex partial ones but I suppose that
if the smaller ones are partial then the name for the full ones should
just be 'complex'.

Chris L.

In article <42AFB078.13A3207B@netscape.net>,

> >   The reason you probably can't find a lot on Tonic Clonic type seizures is
> > that is an older name, not often used in most countries or sites any longer.
> > I think it was posted elsewhere earlier this week that what was once called
> > 'Tonic Clonic'  are now grouped  in Grand Mal seizures.

> Gordon, I must have missed that discussion.  I was under the impression that
> Grand Mal was the older terminology which is now called Tonic Clonic.
> Julie
Dave ©¿©¬ - 18 Jun 2005 12:25 GMT
Howdy Chris!

They're called "partials" because they are located in just one part of the
brain and don't spread to the entire brain like "generalized" seizures do.

Signature

Dave ©¿©¬

http://www.howdydave.com

> I didn't think the terms 'Grand Mal' and 'Petit Mal' were fashionable any
> more. I call mine major fits and complex partial ones but I suppose that
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> > Grand Mal was the older terminology which is now called Tonic Clonic.
> > Julie
Dave ©¿©¬ - 18 Jun 2005 12:49 GMT
Howdy AGAIN!

The easiest way to describe the difference between simple partials and
complex partials is:

When a person has a complex partial they are oblivious to their
surroundings. That's why I can stick my hand into a pot of boiling water and
just leave it there for a minute!

When a person has a simple partial seizure they are aware of their
surroundings but may have sensations (sounds, smells, nausia, etc.) that are
a direct result of the electrical activity. The smell isn't actually in the
air, but the brain registers it.

Signature

Dave ©¿©¬

http://www.howdydave.com

> Howdy Chris!
>
> They're called "partials" because they are located in just one part of the
> brain and don't spread to the entire brain like "generalized" seizures do.

> > I didn't think the terms 'Grand Mal' and 'Petit Mal' were fashionable any
> > more. I call mine major fits and complex partial ones but I suppose that
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> > > Grand Mal was the older terminology which is now called Tonic Clonic.
> > > Julie
Chris Lesurf - 19 Jun 2005 07:26 GMT
I don't think the details are the same for everyone because I only have
accidents when I don't stop what I'm doing soon enough when I get an aura.
Usually, during the actual fit, I'm oblivious to my surroundings and
afterwards I'm obviously aware because might bump into things because I'm
not in full control but I don't make dangerous choices.

During tha actual fit I'm either grunting and rubbing my right thumb on my
right hand - that used to be much worse and I've actually drawn blood with
my thumb nail once or twice - or I'm singing and dancing very gently.
Then, if I'm at home I go to bed or if I'm out I go home. At that time,
I'm obviously aware (but muddled) but have no memory of anty of it
afterwards. I always warn people not to try to stop me because I fight.
Once I found myself off a bus on a dual carriageway. My last memory was of
a traffic sign saying 11miles to my home town so I had no choice but to
flag a car down. I was very lucky that the 4th car stopped and after my
apparently saying I wanted to go back to the bus-station, we realised that
they were going very near to where I live.

Chris L.

> Howdy AGAIN!

> The easiest way to describe the difference between simple partials and
> complex partials is:

> When a person has a complex partial they are oblivious to their
> surroundings. That's why I can stick my hand into a pot of boiling water and
> just leave it there for a minute!

> When a person has a simple partial seizure they are aware of their
> surroundings but may have sensations (sounds, smells, nausia, etc.) that are
> a direct result of the electrical activity. The smell isn't actually in the
> air, but the brain registers it.
CyberCafe - 12 Jun 2005 23:29 GMT
> Hi, thanks for your replies. I was concerned too about the lack of assesment
> they did. My specialist has put me on his emergancy list as he is worried
> about the length and all that. But even he said he didn't think it was a
> seizure. If it happens again. How long do you think i should leave it before
> someone takes me to the A + E dept?

I worked at a sheltered workshop where a lot of the clients had seizure
disorders (all types), and the policy there was ten minutes. That's
timing the actual seizure and not the recovery.  Staff timed all seizures.

Barb

Next time i will go to a different
> hospital. I am taking lamictal at the max dose but it caused me to have
> major itching.. no rash tho.. so i took it down myself only a little ages
[quoted text clipped - 91 lines]
>>>or simlar thing happen? Thanks.
>>>Melx
Rewired - 21 Jun 2005 22:23 GMT
Complex Partial seizures can progress during the seizure to a
generlized seizure. Better known as Complex partial with secondary
generalized.

this is the type of seizures I had for about 20 yrs. I didn't always
have a grand mal during a CP, about 1 A WEEK OR SO.

Chris

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