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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / May 2008

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BMJ: BS-testing is ineffective and harmful for newly dianosed T2s.

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Alan Mackenzie - 18 Apr 2008 10:45 GMT
Hi, MHD!

I've just spotted a fascinating bit of research,
<http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/bmj.39534.571644.BEv1?rss=1>, which
investigated the effectiveness of blood sugar testing in newly diagnosed
T2s.  The study was led by Dr. Maurice O'Kane of Altnagelvin Hospital,
Western Health and Social Care Trust, Londonderry, Northern Ireland.

There were 184 participants in the study, 111 men and (presumably ;-) 73
women, and they were on average fairly old (~57 years).  96 subjects were
instructed to do blood glucose testing 8 times a week, and advised what
to do about high or low readings.  The other 88 weren't.  For the testing
group, a "compliance level" was defined as "doing at least 80% of the
required tests".  Only 63 of the 96 in the "testing" group managed this
80% threshold.  I think that the study results include the results from
all 96 people, but I'm not quite sure.  All were tested in the same
diabetic clinic at three monthly intervals, the study lasting for a year.

At all of the measurement times in study, there were _no_ statistically
significant differences between the two groups in their hBA1c, occurence
of hypoglycaemia or use of T2 drugs.

However,

   Participants in the self monitoring group were more depressed,
   scoring 6 points higher (that is, 6%) on the depression subscale of
   the well-being questionnaire at 12 months (P=0.01), and there was a
   trend towards increased anxiety.

The article doesn't make clear how big a difference this 6% represents
(it gives referencs to the (offline) descriptions of the psychological
tests), but the authors clearly regard it as big enough to be important.

The authors give their views on the possible mechanisms for the
depression:

   Anecdotal and other evidence suggests that some patients consider
   monitoring uncomfortable, intrusive, and unpleasant.  An interesting
   finding of our study was that monitoring was associated with a 6%
   higher score on a depression subscale and a trend towards increased
   anxiety, although satisfaction with treatment was unchanged.  This
   supports the results of Franciosi et al, who also found higher levels
   of distress, depressive symptoms, and anxiety in patients who self
   monitored, and the qualitative findings of Peel et al.  This possible
   negative effect of monitoring might be important and merits further
   investigation.  Given that glycaemic control rapidly improved to
   satisfactory levels during the study, the negative effect might
   relate less to feelings of powerlessness in the face of high blood
   glucose readings than to the enforced discipline of regular
   monitoring without any tangible gain.  This possibility should be
   considered when patients with a new diagnosis of diabetes are
   introduced to monitoring.

So, what are we to make of this?  That BS testing, of itself, causes
depression and anxiety should surprise nobody, and it's refreshing to see
this figuring prominently in a proper study.

That BS testing 8 times a week brings no benefit is ambiguous: either
(i) BS testing for new T2s is not useful at all; or
(ii) To be useful for new T2s, BS testing must be done more frequently
 than 8 times a week.

It would be interesting to see this study repeated for
(i) T1s (Hey, I'd volunteer ;-);
(ii) more "experienced" T2s;
and, perhaps most significantly,
(iii) testing much more frequently than 8 times a week (say, 4 times a
 day).

My own guess on (iii) is that it would lower the testing group's hBa1c's
to the point where they'd be statistically significantly lower, but that
this difference would nonetheless be small.  I believe that it would also
raise the already high (34%) "non-compliance" figure, and would raise the
depression level, too.

Signature

Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

dorsy1943 - 18 Apr 2008 19:38 GMT
> Hi, MHD!
>
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
> --
> Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Many t2's rely on meds or insulin and erroneously believe that this
will control their diabetes.  Even people who are normally really
smart about other areas of their lives will not make lifestyle
changes.  It is depressing to find numbers higher than you would like,
but  for those who work hard at taking control of their own health a
higher reading just means a more careful control of diet and being
more faithful to a regular exercise schedule.  As with many things in
life, we often go through periods where we get a bit careless about
our health.    Without monitoring how would we know to clean up our
act or have the incentive to do so?  Never underestimate the ability
of people to hide their heads in the sand.

Dolores
Trinkwasser - 19 Apr 2008 20:47 GMT
>> Hi, MHD!
>>
[quoted text clipped - 85 lines]
>act or have the incentive to do so?  Never underestimate the ability
>of people to hide their heads in the sand.

Exactly so!

Until I started my own testing I simple didn't know what was causing
me to feel so crap, nor what I could do to change things. In my case
it has been a very liberating experience (and the lack of high low and
rapidly changing BG has seriously reduced *my* indicence of depression
along with a slew of other symptoms)

<cynic mode>

You can prove anything with the right statistician

Presumably this is the paper behind the BBC headlines

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7352321.stm

The scariest bit is hidden away in an older news report

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7062473.stm

The audit shows that 83% of children and young people are not
achieving recommended blood glucose levels of 7.5%.

And almost a third have blood glucose levels above 9.5% - a level
which, according to NICE, poses a real risk to health and should
attract extra resources for care

THAT'S the real horror story

One presumes people in this study were testing on average once per
day, finding they could not do anything about their ridiculously high
numbers as they were assidulously following the Healthy High Carb Diet
their friendly dietician had given them, and became depressed.

So the obvious cure is not to tell them how crap their control is.

Sorted . . .
dorsy1943 - 24 Apr 2008 13:02 GMT
> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:38:21 -0700 (PDT), dorsy1943
>
[quoted text clipped - 128 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Trink, I have to tell you that I have been following a healthy high
carb, low fat, low animal protein diet (ala Nathan Pritikin) for 17
years and my fasting numbers are usually in the 80's and 90's.  Many
months ago I had a moment of panic when my blood sugars climbed a good
bit.  It turns out that I had switched to the newer wal mart  reli on
meter which is calibrated to correct to the plasma level and is about
twelve per cent higher than capillary blood.  I did not know this at
first and re doubled my efforts at diet and exercise and brought the
readings down to what I consider good.  So testing was an incentive to
improve.  A call to the company told me about the difference in the
newer meter.  I assume that by now all meters are calibrated to equal
the plasma reading.  While I have periods where I am not careful, I
usually avoid all refined carbs but eat a serving of potatoes or rice
or pasta or corn or oatmeal with each meal.  And lots of beans along
with vegetables and fruit. I have more recently been following the
suggestion to drink no fruit juices.   So far no complications.
Others prefer low carb.  On another group, people quote Dr.
Kwasniewski who promotes a very high fat low carb diet, but who also
claims that the worst thing is a diet of equal carbs and fat.  He also
says the low fat high carb Japanese diet is a good diet.  And of
course, exercise is the elixer of life and if it could be sold in a
bottle, the seller would never have another financial worry.

Dolores
Alan S - 25 Apr 2008 09:40 GMT
>Trink, I have to tell you that I have been following a healthy high
>carb, low fat, low animal protein diet (ala Nathan Pritikin) for 17
>years and my fasting numbers are usually in the 80's and 90's.

What are your peak post-prandials, A1c, trigs and HDL? What
meds and exercise do you do?

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com
Latest:Valderee, Valderah. Or, I love To Go A-wandering...
dorsy1943 - 26 Apr 2008 11:50 GMT
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 05:02:40 -0700 (PDT), dorsy1943
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> --http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com
> Latest:Valderee, Valderah. Or, I love To Go A-wandering...

It is hard to know now since my doctor fired me and I haven't found a
new one yet, but the last time I was tested,  the A1c was in the
five's, trigs were 165, LDL 130, HDL 46.  I do not measure my posts
very often, but depending on what I eat and the amount of exercise the
three hour posts are always normal,  and, depending on what I eat the
highest number at one or two hours post could be into the 180's, (I am
giving you a really high one here so you know they are not always as
low as a low carber's) and the one or two hour post falls to around
120 or less.  It varies.  As an example, one morning my fasting sugar
was 84 and I ate a banana and some salmon for breakfast and after a
couple of hours it was 82.  I also eat a few nuts and seeds and
contrary to Pritikin and Ornish whose diets I follow for the most
part, have a little olive oil on salads.  I found that eating a little
fat keeps my triglycerides lower.  I really want to know how people
who eat a far higher carb, lower fat  diet than I do in traditional
cultures have been found to also have very low triglycerides.

I walk for exercise and belong to a fitness center where two or three
times a week I do strength training on machines. Of course I try to
time my exercise so that it is within an hour or hour and a half of
eating a high carb meal.  Remember also that when I say high carb I
mean a serving of a starch and a piece of fruit. If I have pasta, it
is about an ounce or an ounce and a half of whole wheat pasta with
lots of vegetables either mixed in or on the side.

I personally believe my numbers upon testing at the doctor's office
are higher than they would normally be because I seldom go to the
doctor and when I do I am either sick or stressed.  My own biggest
concern is retinopathy and kidney problems so I do see the
ophthalmologist who is a retina specialist twice a year and have no
problem in that area and am always careful to check the kidney and
liver numbers in a blood test, and have a urinalysis done for albumin.

On another group I am on, there is a lot of talk of risk factors and
lowering risk factors.  It wonders me if the standard risk factors
apply to people on the standard american diet and maybe not so much to
those who are either low carbing or low fat dieting.  Who knows?

My goal is to stay off meds as long as possible.  I am guessing that
in the end I will not be able to avoid them.  As an aside, I was just
reading that Rick Mendosa doesn't discuss the meds he is on.  If this
is true, I can appreciate his right to privacy, but he is kind of a
standard bearer and maybe someone would be helped knowing.

Dolores
Alan S - 26 Apr 2008 14:24 GMT
>It is hard to know now since my doctor fired me and I haven't found a
>new one yet, but the last time I was tested,  the A1c was in the
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
>Dolores

We've had this discussion before. I understand that it can
be difficult to see a problem when your BG numbers are
meeting the official ADA criteria of <180 at two hours.

However, I believe you would benefit from spending just a
few days testing at your post-prandial peaks. First you have
to test enough to discover those. For me, it is close to one
hour most times but you may be different. The way to find
out is to test enough after each meal to see the trend. If
that seems too much, try testing at ONE hour after every
meal for just a couple of days.

I wrote a bit more detail on my reasons for suggesting that
here: http://tinyurl.com/26js9o or
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/2006/11/when-to-test-one-hour-or-two-hour.html

Incidentally, your lipids of trigs 165, LDL 130, HDL 46 give
a trigs/HDL ratio of 3.6. This may interest you:
http://tinyurl.com/b9e8t
Note that 1.33 in mmol terms equates to 3.0 for mg/dl. My
reading and my personal experience show that high carbs tend
to be related to high trigs.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com
Latest:Valderee, Valderah. Or, I love To Go A-wandering...
Wes Groleau - 26 Apr 2008 17:17 GMT
> However, I believe you would benefit from spending just a
> few days testing at your post-prandial peaks. First you have
> to test enough to discover those. For me, it is close to one
> hour most times but you may be different. The way to find
> out is to test enough after each meal to see the trend.

If the GI research is to be believed, the "when" depends
on what was in the meal.

Signature

Wes Groleau

Even if you do learn to speak correct English,
whom are you going to speak it to?
                    -- Clarence Darrow

Alan S - 26 Apr 2008 21:56 GMT
>> However, I believe you would benefit from spending just a
>> few days testing at your post-prandial peaks. First you have
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>If the GI research is to be believed, the "when" depends
>on what was in the meal.

It does for some, but only varies significantly for me and
most of those I know when the menu is very distorted.

For example, even if I eat a zero carb high fat high protein
breakfast (bacon and eggs) my peak is still about one hour
if it's measurable. I proved that by experimenting by adding
some toast to get a spike to occur. The "Pizza Effect" of a
later peak for an excessive high carb high fat meal did
occur when I was newly diagnosed but diminished as my
control improved. I have rarely had a significant variation
from a post-prandial peak between 45 and 75 minutes after I
finish eating regardless of the menu.

Of course, that's just for me. The brilliant thing about
"Jennifer's Advice" is that we can all discover our own
variations and form our own personal GI and spike timing
database.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com
Latest:Valderee, Valderah. Or, I love To Go A-wandering...
Trinkwasser - 26 Apr 2008 12:46 GMT
>Trink, I have to tell you that I have been following a healthy high
>carb, low fat, low animal protein diet (ala Nathan Pritikin) for 17
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>course, exercise is the elixer of life and if it could be sold in a
>bottle, the seller would never have another financial worry.

Just goes to prove I suppose that there are many dozen different
conditions called "Type 2".

In my case the Healthy High Carb diet led to disgusting lipids and
ever increasing blood pressure, and cutting the fat led to worse
numbers *and* weight gain for the first time in my skinny life, *and*
left me totally exhausted, all of which have been reversed by reducing
carbs to the level *my* pancreas can deal with.

NONE of which I'd have been able to understand if I hadn't tested.

Anyone has the right not to test if they don't want to. However I
resent the HELL out of anyone trying to stop ME testing.
Wes Groleau - 26 Apr 2008 17:23 GMT
> Anyone has the right not to test if they don't want to. However I
> resent the HELL out of anyone trying to stop ME testing.

I don't resent Alan M. trying to persuade us that testing
is pointless and perhaps harmful.  I may question his
motivation, but he's not trying to stop us from testing
to any greater extent than we are trying to "make" other
people test by posting opposing views or facts.

If he really does think it's harmful than I commend his
trying to help, even if it's not actually helping.
At the same time, if I think his advice is harmful,
then it behooves me to counter it for the sake of others.

Signature

Wes Groleau
  ----
  The man who reads nothing at all is better educated
  than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.
                            -- Thomas Jefferson

guys@consolidated.net - 26 Apr 2008 19:14 GMT
>> Anyone has the right not to test if they don't want to. However I
>> resent the HELL out of anyone trying to stop ME testing.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>At the same time, if I think his advice is harmful,
>then it behooves me to counter it for the sake of others.

We have no right to demand other do anything unless
it harms others.

All we can do is to relate our experiences and be
honest with our stories.  No shill games.

It is obvious that the needs vary and the importance
of testing depends on many variables.

Testing for thre sake of testing is a joke.

The denial of the value of testing PROPERLY
is insanity.

The real test of your testing program is
"How close to "normal" are your blood
sugars running.

Testing for the sake of testing is a waste.  

I do have to test many times  day or I will
lose.  

911 runs are now about $1000.

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Trinkwasser - 29 Apr 2008 17:51 GMT
>> Anyone has the right not to test if they don't want to. However I
>> resent the HELL out of anyone trying to stop ME testing.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>to any greater extent than we are trying to "make" other
>people test by posting opposing views or facts.

Yes, Alan M can't make me stop testing, however the study he quotes is
just one of many which HAVE stopped my PCT from prescribing test
strips and some from reducing the testing done even by Type 1s. It
only takes a few pharmacies to refuse to sell strips without a
prescription and we'd be in even deeper doodoo.

>If he really does think it's harmful than I commend his
>trying to help, even if it's not actually helping.
>At the same time, if I think his advice is harmful,
>then it behooves me to counter it for the sake of others.

His interest in T2 testing regimes seems a bit obsessive but it's the
likes of the original "study" that gets my goat.

Mmmm, haven't eaten goat for ages, very low carb is goat
Alan Mackenzie - 29 Apr 2008 22:00 GMT
Hiya, Trink!

>>> Anyone has the right not to test if they don't want to. However I
>>> resent the HELL out of anyone trying to stop ME testing.

>>I don't resent Alan M. trying to persuade us that testing
>>is pointless and perhaps harmful.  I may question his
>>motivation, but he's not trying to stop us from testing
>>to any greater extent than we are trying to "make" other
>>people test by posting opposing views or facts.

> Yes, Alan M can't make me stop testing, however the study he quotes is
> just one of many which HAVE stopped my PCT from prescribing test
> strips and some from reducing the testing done even by Type 1s. It
> only takes a few pharmacies to refuse to sell strips without a
> prescription and we'd be in even deeper doodoo.

You think you're in trouble.  In Germany, they're prohibiting the
prescription of short acting analogs.  (I'm not sure if they've done it
yet).  The pretext is that there have been no "blind" studies comparing
Actrapid with Humalog.  I keep hoping I've misunderstood that bit, or
that I'll wake up shortly.

>>If he really does think it's harmful than I commend his
>>trying to help, even if it's not actually helping.
>>At the same time, if I think his advice is harmful,
>>then it behooves me to counter it for the sake of others.

That's what newsgroups are about.

> His interest in T2 testing regimes seems a bit obsessive but it's the
> likes of the original "study" that gets my goat.

My interest is in testing.  It's not _that_ different between T1s and
T2s.

> Mmmm, haven't eaten goat for ages, very low carb is goat

:-)

Signature

Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Charly Coughran - 29 Apr 2008 22:21 GMT
Alan Mackenzie <acm@colin2.muc.de> wrote in news:fv829s$1huv$1
@colin2.muc.de:

> You think you're in trouble.  In Germany, they're prohibiting the
> prescription of short acting analogs.  (I'm not sure if they've done it
> yet).  The pretext is that there have been no "blind" studies comparing
> Actrapid with Humalog.  I keep hoping I've misunderstood that bit, or
> that I'll wake up shortly.

No information on any proposed ban, but they are looking at the issue of
demonstrated effectiveness:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/77203.php

Signature

-------
Charly Coughran
ccoughran@DELETE-TO-RESPOND-UCSD.EDU

Alan Mackenzie - 30 Apr 2008 11:47 GMT
[Subject: changed]

Hi, Charly!

> Alan Mackenzie <acm@colin2.muc.de> wrote in news:fv829s$1huv$1
> @colin2.muc.de:

>> You think you're in trouble.  In Germany, they're prohibiting the
>> prescription of short acting analogs.  (I'm not sure if they've done it
>> yet).  The pretext is that there have been no "blind" studies comparing
>> Actrapid with Humalog.  I keep hoping I've misunderstood that bit, or
>> that I'll wake up shortly.

> No information on any proposed ban, but they are looking at the issue of
> demonstrated effectiveness:

> http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/77203.php

Crikey!  I am hoping that I'll wake up shortly.  An excerpt from that
article:

   None of the studies was blinded, i.e. both the patient and the
   physician knew which type of insulin was being injected. Without
   blinding, there is a danger that patients, knowing their type of
   insulin, behave differently, which would subsequently lead to a bias
   in the results of the study.

Now, I'm no fan of analogs at all, but the disingenuous suggestion that
a doctor give patients one of "human" Actrapid and Humalog without
either knowing which it is should set alarm bells ringing very loudly
indeed.  What is being compared is not two insulins as such, but two
different strategies of treating T1.

Signature

Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

ted rosenberg - 30 Apr 2008 15:05 GMT
> [Subject: changed]
>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
>  
I an at a loss about ths.  The two analogs are competing products, head
to head.  They are the ONLY products with similar characteristics.  I
can see ordering a direct comparison study, but the original studies
should  be enough.  They were both double blind against "R". a common
refferant.

Also, taking the fast stuff off of the market harms LOTS of people,\,
because one drug \MIGHT be a little better than the other.  BOTH are
better than "R" !
Anja Länge - 30 Apr 2008 15:42 GMT
> Also, taking the fast stuff off of the market harms LOTS of people,

Noboy wants to take it off the market. They're planning to rake it off the
list of drugs which are paid by health insurance. So everyone who wants to
use it would have to pay it himself.

Anja
Tiger_Lily - 30 Apr 2008 16:58 GMT
>> Also, taking the fast stuff off of the market harms LOTS of people,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Anja

someone from Germany has already told me that he has to buy his own
Novolog insulin, because it's not being paid for by health insurance

he also stated that his Lantus is no longer covered by health insurance

this is total discrimination against diabetics........ pure and simple

(i'm only stating what someone told me, i don't have any references for
this)

Signature

kate
type 1 since 1987
www.diabetic-talk.org

Trinkwasser - 30 Apr 2008 19:22 GMT
>>> Also, taking the fast stuff off of the market harms LOTS of people,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>(i'm only stating what someone told me, i don't have any references for
>this)

And I thought the NHS was bad with respect to "saving" money :(
Anja Länge - 30 Apr 2008 19:32 GMT
> someone from Germany has already told me that he has to buy his own
> Novolog insulin, because it's not being paid for by health insurance

Most health insurances contracted with the manufacturers of analogs so they
can provide analogs for thesame price as human insulin, because analogs for
type2 are only not paid for when they are more expensive than human insulin.
With the same price and a contract between health insurance and manufacturer
they ARE covered.
Which is your friend's health insurance?

> he also stated that his Lantus is no longer covered by health
> insurance

So far the regulation only applies to short acting analogs for type2. The
regulation for type1 is still to come. Long acting analogs like lantus
haven't been looked at so far.

Anja
Tiger_Lily - 30 Apr 2008 23:43 GMT
>> someone from Germany has already told me that he has to buy his own
>> Novolog insulin, because it's not being paid for by health insurance
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Anja

he's type 1, so perhaps he's talking about the 'coming changes'

i will ask him in more detail next time he shows up in chat

thanks

Signature

kate
type 1 since 1987
www.diabetic-talk.org

ted rosenberg - 01 May 2008 04:20 GMT
>  
>> someone from Germany has already told me that he has to buy his own
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>  

"The pretext is that there have been no "blind" studies comparing
Actrapid with Humalog "

BOTH are analogs.
guys@consolidated.net - 01 May 2008 07:06 GMT
I am one of the people that see a sudden jump to very high sugar
levels if I run out of insulin.  It was a major problem years ago and
I still cover it.

Guess I will have to dig deeper in my pocket or find my old three hour
timer to take R or Humalog around the clock every three hours.

I literally expect anything today.  The way to solve the  gross
money situation is to  reward those causing the messes.

Who was that said "never give ths sucker a break".

I clearly remember the clown hired by the VA shouting
at me that I was lying and overeating.

Actually I had not eaten anything for three day trying
to get the blood sugar down.

The soution was to maintain basal insulin levels.

Is that clown runnng these studies.

I suffered too much back then to ignore this bull.  

Was so tired of that timer ringng every three hours
                               
I laugh at the sliding scale so touted today which
is a poor substitue for an exact analysis of a patient
and an intelligent program for the patient.
                                 Guy

>>  
>>> someone from Germany has already told me that he has to buy his own
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
>BOTH are analogs.

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Alan Mackenzie - 01 May 2008 09:32 GMT
Hi, Ted,

> Anja L?nge wrote:

 
>>> someone from Germany has already told me that he has to buy his own
>>> Novolog insulin, because it's not being paid for by health insurance
   

>> Most health insurances contracted with the manufacturers of analogs
>> so they can provide analogs for thesame price as human insulin,
>> because analogs for type2 are only not paid for when they are more
>> expensive than human insulin.  With the same price and a contract
>> between health insurance and manufacturer they ARE covered.
>> Which is your friend's health insurance?

 
>>> he also stated that his Lantus is no longer covered by health
>>> insurance
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>
>>  

> "The pretext is that there have been no "blind" studies comparing
> Actrapid with Humalog "

> BOTH are analogs.

Humalog is a very fast acting analog.  Actrapid, a Novo trademark, is an
immediately acting "human" insulin; I think it's called "R" in the USA.

Signature

Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

ted rosenberg - 01 May 2008 13:25 GMT
> Hi, Ted,
>
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> immediately acting "human" insulin; I think it's called "R" in the USA.
>  

I was yold it was the equivalent of us "Novolog".  If it is "R", it
makes more sense
willbill - 01 May 2008 21:41 GMT
>>> "The pretext is that there have been no "blind" studies comparing
>>> Actrapid with Humalog "
>>>      
>>> BOTH are analogs.    

>> Humalog is a very fast acting analog.  Actrapid, a Novo trademark, is an
>> immediately acting "human" insulin; I think it's called "R" in the USA.

> I was yold it was the equivalent of us "Novolog".  If it is "R", it
> makes more sense

hey mr. ted!

t1 alan is correct, "Actrapid" is Novo's Europe name
for their synthetic (yeast?) human-R.  i'm pretty sure
that Wal-Mart still offers it (at a great price),
here in the USA as human-R under Wal-Mart's label

fwiw, Novo drives me crazy with their different
insulin names for the same product (i.e. USA name,
vs. Europe name)

shift to a related subject; do you still order
some of your script meds from an Italian pharmacy?

kindly provide me with at least one suggestion of how
one finds a big pharmacy (in either Buenos Aires,
or in India (Mumbai (Bombay) or New Delhi)) that will
ship to the USA.  thank you very much!

bill t1 since '57
guys@consolidated.net - 01 May 2008 16:47 GMT
>Hi, Ted,
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>Humalog is a very fast acting analog.  Actrapid, a Novo trademark, is an
>immediately acting "human" insulin; I think it's called "R" in the USA.

Humalog is an insulin where the split of the molecule is
already done so it is available immediately.

R is a short term for regular.  It is a  case
of two molecules of insulin that must be split.

In the case of natural insulin the splitting produces
a byproduct that can be used to measure the insulin
output of a person.

The advantage of Humalog is it available immediately
to take care of the food input.

I see a lot of smoke screening here.  The true cost
diabetes in the high remuneration of some
personnel.

I saw a good system in the military years ago.

Some of the medics there were outstanding.
And paid much less.

Please correct anything I have wrong.

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willbill - 01 May 2008 21:14 GMT
<subject changed>

> Alan Mackenzie <acm@colin2.muc.de> wrote

out of curiosity, do you have/do a software
filter to get rid of the spam that a valid
(at least, appears to be valid) e-mail
address draws?

>> You think you're in trouble.  In Germany, they're prohibiting the
>> prescription of short acting analogs.  (I'm not sure if they've done it
>> yet).  The pretext is that there have been no "blind" studies comparing
>> Actrapid with Humalog.  I keep hoping I've misunderstood that bit, or
>> that I'll wake up shortly.

> No information on any proposed ban, but they are looking at the issue of
> demonstrated effectiveness:
>
> http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/77203.php

hey mr. charly!  :)

aren't you still pumping with one of the
very fast, still very new, analog insulins?

last i remember, it was Humalog

is it still Humalog?

now that you've got real experience with a pump,
and more importantly what your basal needs
really are, why do you continue with it?

at a minimum, it would be very easy to become
a pseudo pumper (3 convenient shots of slow
beef-R/day for background), with a faster
meal insulin (5 to pick from)

 = = = = =

the two parts of the ref that you provided
(above), were these:

<"...Due to the lack of data, the benefit of rapid-acting
  insulin analogues in children and adolescents is unclear.
  Although one of the manufacturers conducted long-term
  comparative studies in this group of patients,
  it is withholding some of the results.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

shades of Vioxx!  (sp?)

  This is the result of the final report of the Institute
  for Quality and Efficiency in Health Care (IQWiG) which
  was published in June 2007 and for which an English-language
  summary is now available.">

and:

<"No long-term studies on insulin pump therapy available

  Regarding insulin pump therapy,
  no study lasting at least 24 weeks was available.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (!)

  Therefore, it remains unclear whether patients would benefit
  and which advantage patients would have by using this form
  of administration. The same applies to children and adolescents,
  as only fully published short-term studies

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ("short-term"!!)

  are available in this population so far. The company Novo Nordisk
  sponsored 2 completed long-term studies in children and adolescents.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

how very interesting!

  However, to date, both studies have only been partially published.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

why does this not surprise me. :(

  In contrast to the manufacturers Sanofi and Lilly, Novo Nordisk
  was not prepared to provide the information needed for the report.">

i'm of the opinion that we need a 5+ year DCCT type study,
in which only t1 pumpers are included

i.e. Humalog has now been around for about 11 years

so the study would include those long term pumpers who've
only used one (or more) of the 3 very fast analog insulins

but then, exactly who would fund it?

not the big 3 pharmas (given that they'd only
fund it, if they were certain the result would
actually show their very fast insulin product
to be *safe* (long term) as well as offer lower
A1c results

bill, t1 since '57, ex 8-yr pumper (beef/pork insulin user)
Charly Coughran - 06 May 2008 20:49 GMT
> hey mr. charly!  :)
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> beef-R/day for background), with a faster
> meal insulin (5 to pick from)

It would be very easy to become a pseudo pumper with several different
routines.  I would probably use 2 x day Lantus and Humalog as required
if I was forced off pumping for some reason.  I would certainly not
choose to stop pumping.  I continue pumping because it is a very
adaptable regimen which fits my variable lifestyle and needs to a tee.  
I've been pumping 9+ years now, first with R then with Humalog as soon
as it was covered by my insurance.  

I was in a clinical trial one phase of which was pumping with Novolog.  
Although some in the trial thought Novolog's activity curve was a
little different than Humalog, I was unable to tell any difference, so
no reason to switch from Humalog.  It matches meal intakes for me
quite well especially with the pump's ability to lengthen its activity
curve for low glycemic meals.  The trial also had a Lantus/Novolog
phase.  That is how I found out it takes 2x day Lantus for me, not an
unusual situation.

I am glad that you are still doing well on your regimen and can still
obtain the beef insulin that works for you.  

Signature

-------
Charly Coughran
ccoughran@DELETE-TO-RESPOND-UCSD.EDU

willbill - 08 May 2008 00:32 GMT
> willbill <trek@worldwide.net> wrote

>> aren't you still pumping with one of the
>> very fast, still very new, analog insulins?
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> It would be very easy to become a pseudo pumper with several different
> routines.  I would probably use 2 x day Lantus and Humalog as required

i'd never call use of any long insulin,
like Lantus, pseudo pumping

pseudo pumping is use of only insulin(s)
that has action well under 24 hour duration

> if I was forced off pumping for some reason.  

you've had more than enough time to learn
your real basal needs

you'd move "off pumping" coz it is easier,
less expensive to do, and way more convenient
than using a pump

> I would certainly not choose to stop pumping.  

ok

> I continue pumping because it is a very
> adaptable regimen which fits my variable lifestyle and needs to a tee.  
> I've been pumping 9+ years now, first with R then with Humalog

to repeat:
you've had more than enough time to learn
your real basal needs

you'd move "off pumping" coz it is easier,
less expensive to do, and way more convenient
than using a pump

> as soon as it was covered by my insurance.  
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I am glad that you are still doing well on your regimen and can still
> obtain the beef insulin that works for you.  

buying beef insulin, from abroad, has so far
been by far my most amazing diabetic experience

imo and fwiw, beef-R is the best, and most
convenient, insulin for pseudo pumping.
i move to it (i.e. pseudo pumping with beef-R)
roughly a half dozen times per year, so i know
what i'm talking about

bill t1 since '57, ex 8-yr pumper
Charly Coughran - 08 May 2008 20:22 GMT
>> It would be very easy to become a pseudo pumper with several
>> different routines.  I would probably use 2 x day Lantus and
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> less expensive to do, and way more convenient
> than using a pump

We disagree on what types of MDI regimen constitute "pseudo pumping".
I would define it as any MDI which tries to separate basal and bolus
needs and tries to respond to them independently.  If you disagree, that
is fine.

We also disagree about whether MDI or pumping is the most convenient and
easiest.  I am happy to append the phrase "for me" to my assertions on
the subject.  Pumping is certainly more expensive.

As I have said on other occasions, I believe you have found the best
regimen for you.  There is tremendous variability in what works best for
a particular patient.  The T1 with the best control I have ever
encountered takes 1 shot of Human NPH/day.  His life regimen would drive
me to suicide, but it works exceptionally well for him.  And the first
rule of diabetes management is do what works (for you).

Signature

-------
Charly Coughran
ccoughran@DELETE-TO-RESPOND-UCSD.EDU

willbill - 08 May 2008 21:22 GMT
> willbill <trek@worldwide.net> wrote

>> i'd never call use of any long insulin,
>> like Lantus, pseudo pumping
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>> less expensive to do, and way more convenient
>> than using a pump

> We disagree on what types of MDI regimen constitute "pseudo pumping".

  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

fwiw, i'm more than a little amazed by this

pumping only uses "fast" meal insulin;
either R (of which there are still 3, with
beef-R being the slowest by far), or one
of the very fast 3 analog insulins

remember David Cohler?

he was a t1 who'd taken to doing only
3 shots/day of human-R

there have been 2 or 3 other t1s who've
posted here doing this same thing

pseudo pumping (via shots of R, and *no*
long acting insulin) means you are at the
same risk of going DKA if you don't promptly
get your next shot of R

> I would define it as any MDI which tries to separate basal and bolus
> needs and tries to respond to them independently.  If you disagree, that
> is fine.

see above

> We also disagree about whether MDI or pumping is the most convenient and
> easiest.  I am happy to append the phrase "for me" to my assertions on
> the subject.  

how can pumping be "convenient"???

pumping is NOT convenient; it is an
expensive, time consuming, hassle

> Pumping is certainly more expensive.

agreed on "expensive"

> As I have said on other occasions, I believe you have found the best
> regimen for you.  There is tremendous variability in what works best for
> a particular patient.  The T1 with the best control I have ever
> encountered takes 1 shot of Human NPH/day.  His life regimen would drive
> me to suicide,

probably also drive me nuts, if not suicide

> but it works exceptionally well for him.  

there is one very long term t1 like him,
whose wife posts here occasionally, who
now only uses 1x (or 2x?) of only Lantus!

> And the first
> rule of diabetes management is do what works (for you).

which has nothing to do with defining
what "pseudo pumping" means

bill t1 since'57, ex 8-yr pumper
Charly Coughran - 08 May 2008 22:53 GMT
> how can pumping be "convenient"???
>
> pumping is NOT convenient; it is an
> expensive, time consuming, hassle

Well, this conversation seems to have ended a similar place to the last
one.  You don't believe I am competent to know what is convenient for me.

I believe that filling up a syringe order once a week and changing
infusion sites every 3-5 days is convenient.  I believe that carrying my
insulin injection system on my belt is convenient.  Foolish me, but it is
a delusion that keeps me happy.  Is it ok with you if I keep it? :-)

Signature

-------
Charly Coughran
ccoughran@DELETE-TO-RESPOND-UCSD.EDU

willbill - 09 May 2008 20:15 GMT
> willbill <trek@worldwide.net> wrote

>> how can pumping be "convenient"???
>>
>> pumping is NOT convenient; it is an
>> expensive, time consuming, hassle

> Well, this conversation seems to have ended a similar place to the last
> one.  You don't believe I am competent to know what is convenient for me.

i pumped for 8+ years

i have a clue on what is and isn't convenient
as a type-1, like you, who needs insulin

given that you like being able to vary your basal
insulin amounts in less than 24 hours, that
requires either a pump with meal insulin (of which
there are 6 to choose from), or 3x/day of syringe
shots of one of the R insulins (of which there are
3 to choose from)

> I believe that filling up a syringe order once a week

i spend ~$100/year for 400 BD syringes,
once per year

exactly what do you mean by
"syringe order once a week"?

> and changing
> infusion sites every 3-5 days is convenient.  

i've seen this repeatedly with t1 pumpers;
meaning that they're locked into the firm
belief that their expensive/inconvenient
pump is what is saving them

when i go on a weekend trip, i preload 4 50u BD
syringes to 40 units each with beef-R (residual
to a bit over 12+ hours), and conveniently carry
those 4 syringes in my shirt pocket (inside an
8.5x11" piece of paper folded 6 ways)

that is way more convenient than what you
do with your pump for a weekend outing

i pumped for 8+ years, so i have a clue

> I believe that carrying my
> insulin injection system on my belt is convenient.  Foolish me, but it is
> a delusion that keeps me happy.  Is it ok with you if I keep it? :-)

hey, it's fine by me if you keep on with a pump. :)

what i'm puzzled by is your misinterpretation
of how use of Lantus could ever be considered
pseudo pumping

pseudo pumping is what t1 David Cohler used
to do with his own use of only shooting 3x/day
of human-R

to me, both pork-R and beef-R have more
residual, beyond 8 hours, than human-R,
and are the better t1 choice for
3x pseudo pumping

my own vote goes to 3x of slow beef-R, which
i've done many times this past 10 years

bill, t1 since '57, ex 8-yr pumper
Charly Coughran - 09 May 2008 21:09 GMT
> what i'm puzzled by is your misinterpretation
> of how use of Lantus could ever be considered
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> bill, t1 since '57, ex 8-yr pumper

I believe that the heart of pumping is separating insulin requirements
into basal and bolus components and dealing with those separately.  In
the case of a pump, with the basal program and the bolus shots as
required.  I would, therefore, define pseudo pumping as having a two part
insulin regimen with one part for bolus and one for basal.

While it is certainly true that pumpers only use one type of insulin the
basal infusion programming makes that insulin appear to the body as a
more or less constant infusion.  Bolus shots go in, generally, all at
once.  Seems reasonable to me to use a long acting and rapid acting
insulins to replicate the pump's delivery.  

We can just add this to the list of foolish things I believe.
guys@consolidated.net - 10 May 2008 05:18 GMT
>> what i'm puzzled by is your misinterpretation
>> of how use of Lantus could ever be considered
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
>We can just add this to the list of foolish things I believe.

Charly, for years you have been a help to me.

Nothing ever foolish from you in my view.

Of course, you and I are  not hung up on any item.

If I wanted a certain item badly, it would not be
proper to push it based on my own case.

I support the continued availability of older
items.  But I do not think the  use of false thoughts
hoping demand will be created is a sensible
way to work. It will have no effect on the
industry gurus.

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willbill - 11 May 2008 03:00 GMT
> I believe that the heart of pumping is separating insulin
> requirements into basal and bolus components and dealing
> with those separately.  In the case of a pump, with the
> basal program and the bolus shots as required.  

> I would, therefore, define pseudo pumping as having
> a two part insulin regimen with one part for bolus
> and one for basal.

see below

> While it is certainly true that pumpers only use one type
> of insulin the basal infusion programming makes that insulin
> appear to the body as a more or less constant infusion.  
> Bolus shots go in, generally, all at once.

 = = = = =

> Seems reasonable to me to use a long acting and rapid acting

  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> insulins to replicate the pump's delivery.  

  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

kindly do me the favor of not calling it "pseudo pumping"

thank you

 = = = = =

t1 david cohler fell into only using 3x
of human-R, by pure chance

at the time, he was on a week trip abroad,
and discovered that he'd only taken his
human-R with him (and forgotten to take
his human-NPH), and didn't have the time
to hunt around for human-NPH

he discovered that he liked 3x of only R,
and when he got home he stopped using NPH

imo, that idea (i.e. a t1 only using 3x of
ordinary shots of human-R) still has merit here

of course, a t1 only using human-R 3x per day
(with *no* long acting insulin), has the same
risk of DKA as any t1 pumper does

e.g., an accident or illness, where t1 david
stops getting any insulin, can more quickly
result in DKA, same as with any t1 pumper

i remember that when i mentioned that to
t1 david (this was about 10 years ago now),
i.e. that he was in essence pumping, and that
he should be aware of that, he got very upset
that i should see him as having the same risks
(as well as benefits) as any pumper

i always thought that he quickly learned what
his nighttime basal needs were, and was more
easily able to sort it out with a small shot
of human-R at bedtime.  i suspect that david
did not suffer from dawn phenomenon; i know
that i don't

bill t1 since '57, ex 8-yr pumper
Anja Länge - 22 Apr 2008 10:56 GMT
> I've just spotted a fascinating bit of research,
> <http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/bmj.39534.571644.BEv1?rss=1>,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> There were 184 participants in the study,

Ever heard about the ROSSO study?

"Abstract
Aims/hypothesis  The aim of this study was to obtain epidemiological data on
self-monitoring of blood glucose (SMBG) in type 2 diabetes and to
investigate the relationship of SMBG with disease-related morbidity and
mortality.
Methods  The German multicentre Retrolective Study 'Self-monitoring of Blood
Glucose and Outcome in Patients with Type 2 Diabetes' (ROSSO) followed 3,268
patients from diagnosis of type 2 diabetes between 1995 and 1999 until the
end of 2003. Endpoints were diabetes-related morbidity (non-fatal myocardial
infarction, stroke, foot amputation, blindness or haemodialysis) and
all-cause mortality. SMBG was defined as self-measurement of blood glucose
for at least 1 year.
Results  During a mean follow-up period of 6.5 years, 1,479 patients (45.3%)
began SMBG prior to an endpoint and an additional 64 patients started SMBG
after a non-fatal endpoint. Interestingly, many patients used SMBG while
being treated with diet or oral hypoglycaemic drugs (808 of 2,515, 32%). At
baseline, the SMBG cohort had higher mean fasting blood glucose levels than
the non-SMBG cohort (p<0.001), suggesting that insufficient metabolic
control was one reason for initiating SMBG. This was associated with a
higher rate of microvascular endpoints. However, the total rate of non-fatal
events, micro- and macrovascular, was lower in the SMBG group than in the
non-SMBG group (7.2 vs 10.4%, p=0.002). A similar difference was found for
the rate of fatal events (2.7 vs 4.6%, p=0.004). Cox regression analysis
identified SMBG as an independent predictor of morbidity and mortality, with
adjusted hazard ratios of 0.68 (95% CI 0.51-0.91, p=0.009) and 0.49 (95% CI
0.31-0.78, p=0.003), respectively. A better outcome for both endpoints was
also observed in the SMBG cohort when only those patients who were not
receiving insulin were analysed.
Conclusions/interpretation  SMBG was associated with decreased
diabetes-related morbidity and all-cause mortality in type 2 diabetes, and
this association remained in a subgroup of patients who were not receiving
insulin therapy. SMBG may be associated with a healthier lifestyle and/or
better disease management. "

Depressions can be treated... if the patient is still alive. Less depressed
but dead patients don't have that choice.

Anja
Alan Mackenzie - 22 Apr 2008 15:39 GMT
Hi, Anja, good to hear from you again!  How are things?

"Anja L?nge" <anja.laenge@gmx.de> wrote:

>> I've just spotted a fascinating bit of research,
>> <http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/bmj.39534.571644.BEv1?rss=1>,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>
>> There were 184 participants in the study,

> Ever heard about the ROSSO study?

No.  Have now, though.  :-)

> "Abstract

> Aims/hypothesis The aim of this study was to obtain epidemiological
> data on self-monitoring of blood glucose (SMBG) in type 2 diabetes and
> to investigate the relationship of SMBG with disease-related morbidity
> and mortality.

> Methods The German multicentre Retrolective Study 'Self-monitoring of
> Blood Glucose and Outcome in Patients with Type 2 Diabetes' (ROSSO)
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> blindness or haemodialysis) and all-cause mortality. SMBG was defined
> as self-measurement of blood glucose for at least 1 year.

"Endpoint" here means the end of a particular subject's participation in
the study, doesn't it?

Unfortunately, "SMBG" is a bit vague.  You'll have read the full study,
so does "SMBG" mean 8 tests a week (as in the Irish study) or 8 tests a
day, or something else.

What decided whether somebody did SMBG or not?  I get the impression that
this wasn't a controlled study, rather a retrospective analysis.

> Results During a mean follow-up period of 6.5 years, 1,479 patients
> (45.3%) began SMBG prior to an endpoint and an additional 64 patients
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> outcome for both endpoints was also observed in the SMBG cohort when
> only those patients who were not receiving insulin were analysed.

> Conclusions/interpretation SMBG was associated with decreased
> diabetes-related morbidity and all-cause mortality in type 2 diabetes,
> and this association remained in a subgroup of patients who were not
> receiving insulin therapy. SMBG may be associated with a healthier
> lifestyle and/or better disease management. "

I'm not sure what "healthier lifestyle" means here, but it doesn't seem
to be the same as what ordinary people mean by it.  I suspect what they
really mean is "dying less", where in normal speech it means "freedom
from pain, worry, and anything which prevents happiness".

Would you fancy proposing what the "association" involved here is?  I
suspect that the correlation between BS testing and fewer deaths is not
causal; rather, both stem from higher motivation in both the diabetic and
his doctor.

Anyhow, the Irish study, which was specific and tightly controlled, found
there was no benefit in new T2s testing, at least not 8 times a week.  It
found specific harm.  Have you any comments to make on this study?

> Depressions can be treated... if the patient is still alive. Less
> depressed but dead patients don't have that choice.

Depression isn't compatible with "a healthy lifestyle".

Anything, from T2 diabetes, to heart attacks, to smashed up bones, to
depression, can be treated, but it's really better not to have to.
That's why it's best to keep your weight down, exercise regularly, wear a
seatbelt in a car and not to do unneeded blood sugar testing.  ;-)

By the way, the study mentioned the increase in depression as being "6%
on the depression subscale of the well-being questionnaire".  You're a
medical student (or have you qualified now?)  Have you any idea how big
this 6% really is?

> Anja

Signature

Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Anja Länge - 23 Apr 2008 13:42 GMT
> Hi, Anja, good to hear from you again!  How are things?

Living in Bavaria...

> "Endpoint" here means the end of a particular subject's participation
> in the study, doesn't it?

No, endpoints in medical context mean death, heart attack, stroke, kidney
failure, amputation and so on. The final consequnce one of the complications
can have. One should know this term when discussing medical studies.

> Unfortunately, "SMBG" is a bit vague.  You'll have read the full
> study, so does "SMBG" mean 8 tests a week (as in the Irish study) or
> 8 tests a day, or something else.

The idea was to find out whether patients who have no effective usage of a
bg value (because they don't adjust their therapy on the basis of a bg
value) benefit from SMBG at all. German health insurances have the attitude
not to pay teststripes for type2 with oral treatment because the current bg
level has no therapeutical consequenzes. The study showed that it did. So
it's about testing at all.

>> SMBG may be associated with
>> a healthier lifestyle and/or better disease management. "
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> means "freedom from pain, worry, and anything which prevents
> happiness".

It's about being aware of behaviour that supports one's health and behaviour
that doesn't. Hanging in front of the TV with a bottle of beer and some junk
food could be regarded as unhealthy lifestyle. A healthier lifestyle would
be to change that attitude, eating less junk food, doing some sports...
Lifestyle.

> Would you fancy proposing what the "association" involved here is?

German health insurance favours evidence based medicine. There was no
evidence that testing has  somekind of benefit if the therapy does not
react on it. So someone had to do the scientifiv work to prove what patients
and doctors knew for many years already.

> suspect that the correlation between BS testing and fewer deaths is
> not causal; rather, both stem from higher motivation in both the
> diabetic and his doctor.

The higher motivation in the patient was awareness of their disease  and not
ignoring it. So if they actually see their bg values they can no longer deny
their disease. that can also be an eye oppener for other health related
problems.

> Anyhow, the Irish study, which was specific and tightly controlled,
> found there was no benefit in new T2s testing, at least not 8 times a
> week.  It found specific harm.  Have you any comments to make on this
> study?

The numbers (184 vs 3208) and the circumstances (restricted area vs.
multicentered) speak for themselves.
The other aspect: They monitored depression rate in newly diagnosed
diabetics. So what? It happens, and it can be a big change in life if you
never took care of your own health and wellbeing. What scould be next?
Acepting this thing that happened and making the best of it or ignoring it
and running into late complications and getting other problems (speaking of
endpoints...)?
_If_ 69% get depressed after diagnosis and testing, the consequence
shouldn't be testing less and getting more problems to cope but assistence
to deal with it, someone to talk to and bringing the new diagnosed into
touch with local support groups.
The idea should be to help hin get over it instead of causing new
depressions due to late complications.

> Anything, from T2 diabetes, to heart attacks, to smashed up bones, to
> depression, can be treated, but it's really better not to have to.

If you got three bypasses, an amputated leg and are bored at dialysis your
chances of surviving a stroke or heart attack are quite limited.

> That's why it's best to keep your weight down, exercise regularly,
> wear a seatbelt in a car and not to do unneeded blood sugar testing.
> ;-)

I don't see the reason for a smiley. If you avoid testing you can also put a
gun to your head. It's quicker and less painful. Okay, someone has to clean
up the mess...

> By the way, the study mentioned the increase in depression as being
> "6% on the depression subscale of the well-being questionnaire".
> You're a medical student

...was...

>  (or have you qualified now?)

no.

> Have you any idea how big this 6% really is?

No idea, table3 mentions some psychological variables.

Anja
Alan Mackenzie - 23 Apr 2008 14:37 GMT
"Anja L?nge" <anja.laenge@gmx.de> wrote:
>> Hi, Anja, good to hear from you again!  How are things?

> Living in Bavaria...

Hi!

>> "Endpoint" here means the end of a particular subject's participation
>> in the study, doesn't it?

> No, endpoints in medical context mean death, heart attack, stroke,
> kidney failure, amputation and so on. The final consequnce one of the
> complications can have. One should know this term when discussing
> medical studies.

Hey, I'm getting an expert to explain!  Thanks!

> The idea was to find out whether patients who have no effective usage
> of a bg value (because they don't adjust their therapy on the basis of
> a bg value) benefit from SMBG at all. German health insurances have the
> attitude not to pay teststripes for type2 with oral treatment because
> the current bg level has no therapeutical consequenzes. The study
> showed that it did. So it's about testing at all.

Ah, right.  I've got you now.  It's an Iqwiggy thing.  Presumably, in
this context, by "adjust their therapy" they meant doing something with
drugs, as opposed to eating more/less or running a mile, or the like.

>>> SMBG may be associated with a healthier lifestyle and/or better
>>> disease management.

>> Would you fancy proposing what the "association" involved here is?

> German health insurance favours evidence based medicine. There was no
> evidence that testing has  somekind of benefit if the therapy does not
> react on it. So someone had to do the scientific work to prove what patients
> and doctors knew for many years already.

OK.  So this ROSSO study was for a radically different purpose than the
BMJ study.

>> suspect that the correlation between BS testing and fewer deaths is
>> not causal; rather, both stem from higher motivation in both the
>> diabetic and his doctor.

> The higher motivation in the patient was awareness of their disease and
> not ignoring it. So if they actually see their bg values they can no
> longer deny their disease. that can also be an eye opener for other
> health related problems.

However, the BMJ study showed clearly that awareness of BG values was of
no help, at least not in the first year of being an Irish T2.

[ .... ]

> The numbers (184 vs 3208) and the circumstances (restricted area vs.
> multicentered) speak for themselves.

Indeed.  Both numbers were high enough to give good statistical
significance, but the ROSSO study was for political purposes, the BMJ
study was pure science.

> The other aspect: They monitored depression rate in newly diagnosed
> diabetics. So what? It happens, and it can be a big change in life if you
> never took care of your own health and wellbeing. What scould be next?

The depression was caused, or at least exacerbated, specifically by BG
testing.  In other respects, the testing group and the control group were
the same, so the depression had nothing to do with "big change in life"
or "taking care of health and wellbeing".  It was caused by BG testing.

> Acepting this thing that happened and making the best of it or ignoring
> it and running into late complications and getting other problems
> (speaking of endpoints...)?

But BG testing doesn't make any difference, physically, at least not in
the first year.  At the very least, the BMJ study indicates that BS
testing should be postponed until the second year of T2.

> _If_ 69% get depressed after diagnosis and testing, the consequence
> shouldn't be testing less and getting more problems to cope but assistence
> to deal with it, someone to talk to and bringing the new diagnosed into
> touch with local support groups.

The study suggests that testing less _is_ the way to deal with it.

[ .... ]

>> Anything, from T2 diabetes, to heart attacks, to smashed up bones, to
>> depression, can be treated, but it's really better not to have to.

> If you got three bypasses, an amputated leg and are bored at dialysis
> your chances of surviving a stroke or heart attack are quite limited.

Better than if you've already commited suicide.  But talking about
extremes as though they were the norm isn't helpful here.

>> That's why it's best to keep your weight down, exercise regularly,
>> wear a seatbelt in a car and not to do unneeded blood sugar testing.
>> ;-)

> I don't see the reason for a smiley. If you avoid testing you can also
> put a gun to your head. It's quicker and less painful. Okay, someone
> has to clean up the mess...

Where's the evidence of this?  I think you take it as given that BS
testing is always good, and always necessary, and you're having
difficulty coping with evidence to the contrary.  If this study has shown
one thing, it's that the relationship between BS testing and successful
treatment is at least more complicated than was previously thought.

[ .... ]

> no.

Ah.  Sorry.

> Anja

Signature

Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Nicky - 23 Apr 2008 20:08 GMT
>However, the BMJ study showed clearly that awareness of BG values was of
>no help, at least not in the first year of being an Irish T2.

Well, it's not going to be, is it, unless the relationships between
diet, exercise, medication and bg are drawn, and you're able to adjust
one or more of those factors as a result of that direct feedback.
Limited test strips, and treating patients like mushrooms, results in
a crap study.

If you want to see the results of informed use of testing during the
first year after dx, mail me and I'll send you my graphs. I went from
an A1c of 10.3%, down to 4.7% at one point. And from the typical angst
and depression at dx, to feeling positive about my ability to affect
the course of the disease.

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.6%  BMI 25
dorsy1943 - 24 Apr 2008 13:28 GMT
> On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:37:53 +0000 (UTC), Alan Mackenzie
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> D&E, 100ug thyroxine
> Last A1c 5.6%  BMI 25

Yes, and how many times have you sat down to a meal next to a very
overweight fellow diabetic who is shovelling huge portions of refined
carbs and fats down his throat and saying, "I'm on pills"?  I do not
blame this on the diabetic alone but, at least from my experience, on
a doctor who hands you a booklet with the ADA diet, doesn't recommend
a meter, doesn't offer you a goal of getting off meds by good diet and
exercise, might not even recommend a support group or a diabetes
educator, and probably would never recommend an endocrinologist.   And
of course, there are people who absolutely refuse to undertake the
difficult path of lifestyle change.

Dolores
Trinkwasser - 26 Apr 2008 12:57 GMT
>>However, the BMJ study showed clearly that awareness of BG values was of
>>no help, at least not in the first year of being an Irish T2.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>and depression at dx, to feeling positive about my ability to affect
>the course of the disease.

me too
dorsy1943 - 24 Apr 2008 13:17 GMT
> "Anja L?nge" <anja.lae...@gmx.de> wrote:
> >> Hi, Anja, good to hear from you again!  How are things?
[quoted text clipped - 110 lines]
> --
> Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Well, if you postpone testing then your health and your life are
entirely in the hands of your doctor.  And he is going to do the
testing anyway at great cost to you or he will be so busy with the 250
patients his HMO's insist he have that he will not be on top of a
little thing like your blood sugar.  After all, he has given you
pills, hasn't he?

Dolores
Alan Mackenzie - 25 Apr 2008 15:24 GMT
>> Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

[ .... ]

> Well, if you postpone testing then your health and your life are
> entirely in the hands of your doctor.

Don't be silly.  You can eat sensibly, keep your weight sensible and
exercise sensibly, work sensibly, entertain yourself sensibly, visit
your relatives sensibly, and a whole host of other things without the
manual aid of a doctor.

> And he is going to do the testing anyway at great cost to you or he
> will be so busy with the 250 patients his HMO's insist he have that he
> will not be on top of a little thing like your blood sugar.  After all,
> he has given you pills, hasn't he?

Why don't you read the actual study, and make some constructive comment
about it?

> Dolores

Signature

Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Anja Länge - 25 Apr 2008 09:13 GMT
> The study suggests that testing less _is_ the way to deal with it.

Has there ever been anything in this world that disappears when you ignore
or deny it? Or does it tend to get worse when you do so?

> But talking about extremes as though they were the norm isn't helpful
> here.

Extremes? Diabetes is THE main cause of kidney failure. Typ2 cuses 24% of
all chronic kidney failure, type1 causes 7%. That makes 31% because of
diabetes.
Cardiovascular diseases are the number 1 cause of death in the western world
and diabetes causes 80% of the heart attacks.
There are 28000 amputations due to diabetes in Germany EACH year.

> and you're having difficulty coping with evidence to the contrary.

Speaking of coping and denial...

Anja
Alan Mackenzie - 25 Apr 2008 15:16 GMT
"Anja L?nge" <anja.laenge@gmx.de> wrote:

Hi, Anja!

>> The study suggests that testing less _is_ the way to deal with it.

> Has there ever been anything in this world that disappears when you ignore
> or deny it? Or does it tend to get worse when you do so?

Maybe.  Everybody here, apart from me, is working very hard to ignore and
deny the work of the good Irish scientists.  Assuming the study was done
in good faith, it requires a modification of stances.  You have yet to
say how you interpret this study.

>> But talking about extremes as though they were the norm isn't helpful
>> here.

> Extremes? Diabetes is THE main cause of kidney failure. Typ2 cuses 24% of
> all chronic kidney failure, type1 causes 7%. That makes 31% because of
> diabetes.

Yes, my dear.  And depression is THE main causes of suicide.  However,
kidney failure, etc., are extreme consequence of diabetes, not normal
outcomes.

>> and you're having difficulty coping with evidence to the contrary.

> Speaking of coping and denial...

Please post your interpretation of the study.

> Anja

Signature

Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Anja Länge - 25 Apr 2008 16:04 GMT
>> Extremes? Diabetes is THE main cause of kidney failure. Typ2 cuses
>> 24% of all chronic kidney failure, type1 causes 7%. That makes 31%
>> because of diabetes.
>
> Yes, my dear.  And depression is THE main causes of suicide.

Suicide is not the main cause of death. Cardiovascular disease is.

> However, kidney failure, etc., are extreme consequence of diabetes, not
> normal outcomes.

So what do you think killed those 80%?

Anja
Alan Mackenzie - 25 Apr 2008 16:21 GMT
"Anja L?nge" <anja.laenge@gmx.de> wrote:

>> However, kidney failure, etc., are extreme consequence of diabetes, not
>> normal outcomes.

> So what do you think killed those 80%?

Anja, this study was done, and it won't go away by pretending it never
happened.  If you don't want to comment on it, just say so.

In any case, it doesn't directly affect either of us, since we're not
T2s.

> Anja

Signature

Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Dennis R. - 26 Apr 2008 02:15 GMT
> "Anja L?nge" <anja.laenge@gmx.de> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> >> and you're having difficulty coping with evidence to the contrary.
>  

Alan, I suggest you visit a modern dialysis unit. In 1994 when I began
dialysis in Canada (I doubt that the USA or Western Europe are that much
different) 3 out of 5 new patients were 60-70 year old long term
diabetics who had been poorly controlled. At age 37 and with my kidney
failure from either a childhood infection or congenital scarring, I was
one of the other 2 out of 5. The registered nurses in the unit who had
been around more than fifteen years in 1995 said that early in their
careers (1980's), they saw much fewer diabetics, because they were
generally dead by then.

Hemo-Dialysis is hard on the cardiovascular system, and cardiovascular
failure is the leading cause of death of those on dialysis. In 1998,
just after my time on dialysis, the data from the National Center for
Health Statistics in the United States indicated 77% survival rate at 1
year, 28% at 5 years, and 10% at 10 years.

A study in 2007 - http://tinyurl.com/4vlj5x - indicated that 1 year
survival rates were about the same and 5 year rates were up to almost
40% , which seems to be due to great advances in technology and changes
in treatment methods.

The mortality rate for those who have just started dialysis is even
worse, at double the rate of those who make it past 90 DAYS (I.e. up to
50 %) - http://tinyurl.com/4hude2

Several Google searches indicated that diabetics still make up at least
30% of those on dialysis, and almost 50% of those on the DCOR study -
http://tinyurl.com/5us692 - (the dialysis equivalent of the DCCT).

http://ndt.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/12/3098

http://tinyurl.com/66tugp

I do not see how you can possibly consider that an "extreme"
consequence of diabetes, rather than the quite "common" consequence it
actually is.

Dennis (Type 2)
Kidney Transplant 1995
Trinkwasser - 26 Apr 2008 12:57 GMT
>"Anja L?nge" <anja.laenge@gmx.de> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>kidney failure, etc., are extreme consequence of diabetes, not normal
>outcomes.

No they're normal consequences of UNCONTROLLED diabetes

What is your motivation in trying to stop Type 2s from controlling
their diabetes?

(For the writers of the paper it's obviously economic)
Wes Groleau - 25 Apr 2008 20:31 GMT
> However, the BMJ study showed clearly that awareness of BG values was of
> no help, at least not in the first year of being an Irish T2.

Unless I missed something in the quote, it failed to show that
it's of no help to a newly diagnosed T2 who actually does something
about the reading.

If we can see a comparison between people who took the requested
actions and those who didn't, we're getting closer.  But then
there are still more variables to consider, such as:
 - would some other requested action be more effective?
 - would more frequent testing make a beneficial difference?

Finally, maybe I'm merely raionalizing to support
my bias toward testing.  :-)

> But BG testing doesn't make any difference, physically, at least not in
> the first year.  At the very least, the BMJ study indicates that BS
> testing should be postponed until the second year of T2.

Excuse me for expressing that bias here: EOID !!

Signature

Wes Groleau
   "If it wasn't for that blasted back-hoe,
    a hundred of us could be working with shovels"
   "Yeah, and if it weren't for our shovels,
    a thousand of us could be working with spoons."

dorsy1943 - 24 Apr 2008 13:11 GMT
> > I've just spotted a fascinating bit of research,
> > <http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/bmj.39534.571644.BEv1?rss=1>,
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> Anja

Very interesting.  The part about results without those on insulin
seems to agree with the ACCORD study (you can google it) which showed
patients did worse with frequent testing and tight control.  On the
other hand there was the ADVANCE study ( also can be googled) which
seemed to contradict the ACCORD study, but some say not really because
they were two different approaches.  I wonder what light this sheds on
Dr. Bernsteins low carb, frequent testing and frequent insulin
adjustments?  Evidently really good numbers do not always coincide
with great outcomes, although I believe Dr. Bernstein would say
otherwise.  Perhaps he gets better results because his method involves
low carb.  I do not know.  Did he do long term studies and publish in
a peer reviewed journal?

Dolores
Màck©® - 24 Apr 2008 17:41 GMT
>Hi, MHD!
>
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
>raise the already high (34%) "non-compliance" figure, and would raise the
>depression level, too.

comparing that faulty study and you non-type 2 conclusions to the
results of all the type 2s in these diabetic groups over the past
several years shows a greater level of BG control is attained without
any significant increase in the rate of depression.

I would go with the collective experience shared in these diabetic
groups on the proper methods of type 2 testing and what to do with
that data than the results of that skewed study.

Signature

Måck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
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http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/
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Alan Mackenzie - 24 Apr 2008 20:50 GMT