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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / December 2006When low carb diets fail.
I am sensing a strong undercurrent that any challenge to a low carb diet will be promptly punished in this newsgroup. At the same time, there seem to be many out there who have tried, unsuccessfully, to use low carb diets. In a study of diet published in the NEJM, only 43% their highly motivated volunteers were still on the diet at 1 year. Which brings us several issues: 1) If the diet can't be followed by 57% of the participants, in an experimental situation where the doctors and nurses are holding their hands for a year, what is that telling us? 2) Why do 57% of the people stop the diet if it is so wonderful? 3) Why do we blame the patients, the doctors, the ADA, the food companies, or whatever for this failure rate? Why is there a need to ascertain blame, rather than search for a better process? Food for thought. ;) William C Biggs, MD > I am sensing a strong undercurrent that any challenge to a low carb diet > will be promptly punished in this newsgroup. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > experimental situation where the doctors and nurses are holding their hands > for a year, what is that telling us? What are the comparable figures for more conventional low-fat diets? You can't evaluate the 57% in a vacuum. I could imagine adherence rates to a low-fat diet ranging from as low as 15% to as high as 65%. You can only evaluate the long-term success on the basis of this comparison. > 2) Why do 57% of the people stop the diet if it is so wonderful? From what I've read on this group and on the low carb newsgroup, there are issues of family pressure, real or imagined, unwillingness to cook separate food for different family members. There are also economic pressures. Pasta, potatoes, and rice are *cheap*, so, if you stop making them the center of your meals, costs go up, especially if you're still buying junk food for the rest of the family. > 3) Why do we blame the patients, the doctors, the ADA, the food companies, > or whatever for this failure rate? Why is there a need to ascertain blame, > rather than search for a better process? Good questions. When I look at the issues people bring with them when they come to the newsgroups for help or support, the primary issue is lack of education. People are told that they have blood sugar issues and, if they're lucky, they're told to "cut out sugar". I'm particularly lucky that my GP gave me a bit more info than that, and recommended a book that got me started. When I first started, almost 10 years ago, there were still folks who were being accused of non-compliance because several hours of exercise daily *and* adherence to the diet weren't reducing blood sugar; one in particular went through months of this before being diagnosed LADA and put on insulin!  SignatureAF "Non Sequitur U has a really, really lousy debate team." --artyw raises the bar on rec.sport.baseball Alice, Adherence to a low fat diet was in the same range, 39%. This is from the same study, and based on the number of participants, they felt this was not statistically different. One of the claims about low carb is that it is EASIER to follow. This showed that it was really about the same. To some extent, I am asking if the emperor has no clothes. Or has fewer clothes than claimed. ;) I agree on the family issues. This is a frequent reason I hear. I also hear that it's too difficult when traveling, on vacation, at school, at work, etc. Just like it is hard to quit cigarettes when your spouse is smoking in front of you, it would be hard to be low carb when your spouse is eating bread and potatoes in front of you. Is it really cheaper to eat high carb? You can simply take off the buns at McDonalds can't you? Thanks for your input. It will be interesting to see what other have to say too. WCB Cheers, WCB >> I am sensing a strong undercurrent that any challenge to a low carb diet >> will be promptly punished in this newsgroup. [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > reducing blood sugar; one in particular went through months of this > before being diagnosed LADA and put on insulin! > I agree on the family issues. This is a frequent reason I hear. I also hear > that it's too difficult when traveling, on vacation, at school, at work, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Is it really cheaper to eat high carb? You can simply take off the buns at > McDonalds can't you? Nice. Somehow I doubt that Alice eats at MacDonalds much, if at all. Priscilla Priscilla, Alice & I may not, but millions of people do. There seems to be a detachment from reality here in the low carbers. Where are people eating, and what are they eating? I can assure you there are more people eating at McDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's, In-N-Out that you seem to acknowledge. Cheers, WCB >> I agree on the family issues. This is a frequent reason I hear. I also >> hear [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Priscilla : Priscilla, : Alice & I may not, but millions of people do. : There seems to be a detachment from reality here in the low carbers. : Where are people eating, and what are they eating? : I can assure you there are more people eating at McDonalds, Burger King, : Wendy's, In-N-Out that you seem to acknowledge. : Cheers, : WCB You can ask for a sandwich without the bun and they give it to you in a box with a fork. they also have the salads now and some, with teh grilled chicken option are quite low carb if you don't douse them in dressing, served on the side. This is useful to know if you are travelling on interstates and want to stop to eat. also, they have, not only the diet coke, but unsweetened ice tea as well as hot coffee. Wendy >: Priscilla, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > You can ask for a sandwich without the bun and they give it to you in > a box with a fork. they also have the salads now and some, with teh > grilled chicken option are quite low carb if you don't douse them in > dressing, served on the side. This is useful to know if you are > travelling on interstates and want to stop to eat. also, they have, > not only the diet coke, but unsweetened ice tea as well as hot coffee. > Wendy If I eat out in restaurants that is easy, a small serve of protein and a salad or cooked veggies without the potato. If it's in fast food places that is easy also. Local Chinese in the mall I can get half a plate of stir fried veggies, some omelet without the sauce and a small serve of anything that hasn't got a high sugared sauce. In sandwich bars I order the salad plate, ditto Subway. At McDonalds they have chicken salads, with a diet coke that's more than enough for me. There are ways and means. >Priscilla, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Cheers, >WCB I don't think anyone disputes that many (too many) people are eating at McDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's, In-N-Out. Nor do they dispute that your country and mine are suffering an obesity (or diabesity) epidemic. I'm missing your point here. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/ http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/ latest: Pompeii, Amalfi, Bari Alan, 1) Low carb diets don't work for everyone. 2) Rather than assuming we have found the holy grail of diets, we should keep looking for a better answer. WCB > I don't think anyone disputes that many (too many) people > are eating at McDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's, In-N-Out. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. > -- "1) Low carb diets don't work for everyone. 2) Rather than assuming we have found the holy grail of diets, we should keep looking for a better answer." It isn't clear if "work for everyone" means no lowering of a1c using the diet or that folk choose to not use it effectively? "Effective" would include in part post meal bg goals and adjustment of carb laden foods accordingly as a standard practice until goals are met and sticking to them. >Alan, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >WCB There are NO diets that work for everyone. What I would like the ADA, Joslin, Mayo, Harvard and the other major diabetes authorities to look for is a diet that works for type 2 diabetics. And hno-one is looking for it. Go back to the paper you were discussing. I'm not sure it's the same one - because you didn't give a url, but one recent paper discussing the long-term similarity in all the various diets noted, in the conclusions, that A1c, FBG and post-prandial BG's all improved on the lower-carb diet even when weight loss was not achieved, despite the other similarities. That, to me, is what is not being discussed here - our goal is management of diabetes. Weight loss is a desirable and useful part of the programme to achieve that - but not the goal. I am not a low-carber. I eat less carbs than most, and certainly less than the ADA guidelines, but I do not count carbs - I read BG's. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/ http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/ latest: Pompeii, Amalfi, Bari >>Alan, >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > useful part of the programme to achieve that - but not the > goal. Nod, nod. I don't advocate dismissing the dangers of obesity but yes a person can gain good bg control, lipids and BP without losing weight. I think weight loss AND bg control etc is the optimal goal but I know from personal experience that I can gain bg control faster than weight loss. My BP, triglycerides and bg dropped dramatically in weeks, 2 weeks. One month after diagnosis my A1c was normal, ditto cholesterol. Losing the weight decreases risk of CVD even further. > I am not a low-carber. I eat less carbs than most, and > certainly less than the ADA guidelines, but I do not count > carbs - I read BG's. I read novels ;) > <SNIP> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > certainly less than the ADA guidelines, but I do not count > carbs - I read BG's. It is the last point you make that most people seem to miss. Your meter is your best indicator of how well you are doing. I don't count carbs any longer (other than reading labels to see what is in the food that I am eating). I have learned to test before and after a meal (and several times before the next meal) when I eat new foods to see what their effect is on my BG levels. I manage to keep my pre-meal levels in the upper 80's to around 90 and my after meal levels in the 120's to lower 130's by doing this. Two hours after a meal, I am back under 100. This practice has worked well for me since I started it after trying (and failing) the Atkins diet three years ago. It is not a specific diet that helps T2's maintain their proper BG levels, but a knowledge of how different foods affect them individually. IMHO, this is the information (how to read and interpret your BG results) that needs to be taught to T2's, and not adherence to a specific diet. - Alan (back to normal readings after spiking over Thanksgiving) >> That, to me, is what is not being discussed here - our goal >> is management of diabetes. Weight loss is a desirable and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> certainly less than the ADA guidelines, but I do not count >> carbs - I read BG's. > It is the last point you make that most people seem to miss. Your meter > is your best indicator of how well you are doing. I don't count carbs [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > practice has worked well for me since I started it after trying (and > failing) the Atkins diet three years ago. > It is not a specific diet that helps T2's maintain their proper BG > levels, but a knowledge of how different foods affect them individually. > IMHO, this is the information (how to read and interpret your BG > results) that needs to be taught to T2's, and not adherence to a > specific diet. I'm not as good as you in BG control yet. but I have a similar experience. I started out after diagnosis moving in the low carb direction, but my meter soon told me that low-carbing was an oversimplified concept and I was better aiming for low spike. For example, a serving of rice will spike me badly, whereas an equal number of carbs in curried lentils doesn't. I also discovered, reading the diabetic newsgroups, that a low-spike diet is very individual thing, because I'm spiked badly by some foods which others can tolerate, and vice versa. Time of day is also important. I eat most of my carbs in the evening, because they spike me a lot less then. I can barely tolerate any carbs at all for breakfast. I wouldn't be able to stick to a simple low-carb diet as well as I can stick to my low-BG-spike diet, and my BGs wouldn't be doing as well. I don't discount the possibility that those two things are related. I get the impression that current diabetes diet research is floundering in an artefactual bog created by unrecognised assumptions, oversimplified models, and over-reliance on epidemiological studies without understanding the statistical tools which could point the way towards multi-factorial and multi-modal models. SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] > It is the last point you make that most people seem to miss. Your meter > is your best indicator of how well you are doing. Not necessarily. What if you are heading into kidney failure? <snip> SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm >> It is the last point you make that most people seem to miss. Your meter >> is your best indicator of how well you are doing. > > Not necessarily. What if you are heading into kidney failure? > > <snip> Then a low carb diet won't help you at all. Am I missing something in your response??? My point was that a meter was a much better indicator of how well you were doing in controlling your BG than adhering to some "one size fits all" low carb diet. - Alan > Then a low carb diet won't help you at all. I don't know if that's true, It's glucose that damages kidneys, after all. I had protein in my urine for several years before I low carbed. I haven't ever had it in my urine in the several years since, and my labs are better, too. Another one time poster reported reversing more advanced kidney damage by switching to low carb (was that Annette?). Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Susan Yes; this is true, although glucose is not the only thing that can damage kidneys (too much protein can too). I was not trying to cover 100% of the things that can lead to kidney failure (see next paragraph). I still don't see how this has anything to do with the need to use a meter instead of a fad diet to manage your diabetes. - Alan > > x-no-archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Yes; this is true, although glucose is not the only thing that can > damage kidneys (too much protein can too). High protein won't damage healthy kidneys. > I was not trying to cover > 100% of the things that can lead to kidney failure (see next paragraph). > > I still don't see how this has anything to do with the need to use a > meter instead of a fad diet to manage your diabetes. I haven't seen anyone here promoting a fad diet. Priscilla > Yes; this is true, although glucose is not the only thing that can > damage kidneys (too much protein can too). I have never been able to find a single, solitary documented case of protein damaging normal, functioning kidneys. If you find one, please pass it along, because so far, I've only ever heard it raised by anti low carb scaremongers. Toxins/chemicals can damage kidneys; there are documented cases of kidney failure follwing the phosphate drinks given prior to colonoscopy, for example. > I was not trying to cover > 100% of the things that can lead to kidney failure (see next paragraph). > > I still don't see how this has anything to do with the need to use a > meter instead of a fad diet to manage your diabetes. I responded to your comment that a low carb diet wouldn't help at all once kidney failure happens. It was directly responsive to one of your statements. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > kidney failure follwing the phosphate drinks given prior to colonoscopy, > for example. The "morbidly fat folk on 800 calories" mis-study I mentioned before was the source of the protein-kidney myth, according to all those med folk who led me to the study. It was the source of the ketosis is suicide myth. I say 'myth' here, but in fact the lack of actual evidence of the protein-kidney link does not prove there is no problem, just that there is a huge problem in the research-dogma link. -- eleaticus ee-lee-AT-i-cus eleaticus@bellsouth.net > I say 'myth' here, but in fact the lack of actual evidence of the > protein-kidney link does not prove there is no problem, just that there is a > huge problem in the research-dogma link. Many studies have looked at kidney function with high protein load and not found any impairments. I never rely on a single extrapolation when making such a statement, nor was I relying on that study for my assertion. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > not found any impairments. I never rely on a single extrapolation when > making such a statement, nor was I relying on that study for my assertion. You DO realize I was supporting you, and attacking the idea that low-carb/high-protein diet has been shown to be injurious? -- eleaticus ee-lee-AT-i-cus eleaticus@bellsouth.net > > x-no-archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > You DO realize I was supporting you, and attacking the idea that > low-carb/high-protein diet has been shown to be injurious? Uh, you're in a discussion, not a war. People who agree on some points are allowed to comment to each other. Priscilla > > > x-no-archive: yes > > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Uh, you're in a discussion, not a war. People who agree on some points > are allowed to comment to each other. lol. This part of what she said was amgibuous as to whether she was reacting to what she may have thought was a disagreement with her, or as to whether it was reacting against some posters other than I: > > >I never rely on a single extrapolation when > > > making such a statement, nor was I relying on that study for my assertion. So, I asked. eleaticus ee-lee-AT-i-cus > Priscilla >>You DO realize I was supporting you, and attacking the idea that >>low-carb/high-protein diet has been shown to be injurious? > > Uh, you're in a discussion, not a war. People who agree on some points > are allowed to comment to each other. Yeah, I thought that was an odd response; I was just adding to his information. Susan > I responded to your comment that a low carb diet wouldn't help at all > once kidney failure happens. It was directly responsive to one of your > statements. Once kidney failure gets past a certain point, protein becomes a problem. I don't fault a doctor for recommending a reduction in protein in that case, or a reduction in fat in the case of no gall bladder. What irks me is the way SOME folks seem to think "protein is bad for some of them, so let's tell all of them to avoid it" and "some kinds of fat are bad, so let's tell them to avoid all kinds" Also the way some folks think that if you suggest _any_ reduction in carbs you're a low-carb fanatic trying to kill people with fat and/or protein. While I'm airing my pet peeves, let me add one more: The almost-reasonable person(s) who think the above paragraph is a direct attack on them personally. SignatureWes Groleau ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ A UNIX signature isn't a return address, it's the ASCII equivalent ^ ^ of a black velvet clown painting. It's a rectangle of carets ^ ^ surrounding a quote from a literary giant of weeniedom like ^ ^ Heinlein or Dr. Who. ^ ^ -- Chris Maeda ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > I responded to your comment that a low carb diet wouldn't help at all > > once kidney failure happens. It was directly responsive to one of your [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > almost-reasonable person(s) who think the above paragraph is > a direct attack on them personally. Hear! Hear! lol > -- > Wes Groleau [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ^ -- Chris Maeda ^ > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > are better, too. Another one time poster reported reversing more > advanced kidney damage by switching to low carb (was that Annette?). I think the "you" in his comment may have been specific to Julie, who, as we know, can have very idiosyncratic responses to treatments that work well for other T2s. Priscilla > I think the "you" in his comment may have been specific to Julie, who, > as we know, can have very idiosyncratic responses to treatments that > work well for other T2s. He may have been referring to me, however I misunderstood what he said and hopefully I have cleared that up. I don't think I have idiosyncratic responses to what works for other people. I know what works for me. At least for a while. I have to keep changing what I am doing with my diet, but then again, they keep diagnosing me with more and more things that affect this, the last one being GERD and Barrett's Esophogus. SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm > are better, too. Another one time poster reported reversing more > advanced kidney damage by switching to low carb (was that Annette?). Which makes me wonder how she is. She hasn't been here in quite a while. SignatureWes Groleau Genealogical Lookups: http://groleau.freeshell.org/ref/lookups.shtml she's hanging in there but she doesn't have the energy required to research her well stated posts on newsgroups send he health and strength thoughts and prayers she shall over come ! ! ! she doesn't reply to e-mails either, so don't try that :-( kate SignatureJoin us in the Diabetic-Talk Chatroom on UnderNet /server irc.undernet.org --- /join #Diabetic-Talk More info: http://www.diabetic-talk.org/ http://www.diabetic-talk.org/freeveggies.htm I have no medical qualifications beyond my own experience. Choose your advisers carefully, because experience can be an expensive teacher. > > are better, too. Another one time poster reported reversing more > > advanced kidney damage by switching to low carb (was that Annette?). > > Which makes me wonder how she is. > She hasn't been here in quite a while. > she's hanging in there > but she doesn't have the energy required to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > she doesn't reply to e-mails either, so don't try > that :-( Yes, that's what worried me most :( > > are better, too. Another one time poster reported reversing more > > advanced kidney damage by switching to low carb (was that Annette?). > > Which makes me wonder how she is. > She hasn't been here in quite a while. She said she had to give up her Internet for personal reasons. She didn't expound on that. SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm I've added asd >> are better, too. Another one time poster reported reversing more >> advanced kidney damage by switching to low carb (was that Annette?). > >Which makes me wonder how she is. >She hasn't been here in quite a while. I've been in recent contact. I had dropped some unsubtle hints about rejoining a.s.d or m.h.d. She is not well enough to spend the energy involved. I get the impression that she can't just sit and read the group; if it's a subject of interest she has to do the research and get involved. She said that she just doesn't have that energy now, and has also dropped out of other groups. Apart from that the tone of her email was cheerful and optimistic, although she did close with this joke; well, I'm presuming she was joking:-) "I discussed my various health problems with said doctor. So I then asked her did she have any further advice for me. Oh yes, she said seriously, I should see Alex Parsons for help, (the local vet!!) That man has a Farside cartoon in his office that shows a lady looking at a page in a book. The caption reads "Like the other veterinary students, Doris found chapter 9 a doddle." Chapter 9 displays a table divided into horse diseases and their treatments. There is a long list of diseases, and opposite them for each one, the treatment "Shoot". <g>" If there are any responses, I'll pass them on. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/ http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/ latest: Pompeii, Amalfi, Bari > I've added asd > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > If there are any responses, I'll pass them on. Just wish her well from me thanks, I received no reply from my last two emails which worried me greatly and I didn't want to offend or embarrass by ringing hubby's work. Just knowing she is ok is enough for me. > If there are any responses, I'll pass them on. Please add my best wishes, and hopes for her energy levels! I've really appreciated her words of wisdom. Nicky. SignatureA1c 10.5/5.5/<6 T2 DX 05/2004 100ug Thyroxine 95/72/72Kg > I've added asd > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/ > latest: Pompeii, Amalfi, Bari Please convey my best wishes to Annette. I did not realize that she was feeling so ill. She was very helpful to me when I raised a number of questions in the months after I was first diagnosed, and I really appreciate it. MaryL Please convey my best wishes to Annette, her past posts helped me a great deal (and still do!) > > I've added asd > > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > MaryL > I've been in recent contact. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > although she did close with this joke; well, I'm presuming > she was joking:-) I'm so sorry to hear that that she's not well. :-( > "I discussed my various health problems with said doctor. So > I then asked her did she have any further advice for me. Oh [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > diseases, and opposite them for each one, the treatment > "Shoot". <g>" Oh, ROFL, that really is black humor, the sort I've often applied to myself. > If there are any responses, I'll pass them on. Please let her know that I still think of her, how valuable her many contributions were to me in my own learning curve here, and that I hope for better days ahead for her. Susan sounds like Annette still has her sense of humor..... that's good to see :-) please send her all the best from her 'chat room buddies' who miss her along with the friends from asd who miss her........ her contributions are logged on google for all of us to refer back to....... and she put a lot of work into her posts to make them a 'cut above the rest'........ i particularily liked when she and Quentin would discuss a topic..... it was eye opening for me ((((((((((((((((((((((((ANNETTE))))))))))))))))))) )))))))))) kate SignatureJoin us in the Diabetic-Talk Chatroom on UnderNet /server irc.undernet.org --- /join #Diabetic-Talk More info: http://www.diabetic-talk.org/ http://www.diabetic-talk.org/freeveggies.htm I have no medical qualifications beyond my own experience. Choose your advisers carefully, because experience can be an expensive teacher. > I've added asd > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/ > latest: Pompeii, Amalfi, Bari > >> It is the last point you make that most people seem to miss. Your meter > >> is your best indicator of how well you are doing. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > was a much better indicator of how well you were doing in controlling > your BG than adhering to some "one size fits all" low carb diet. Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you meant an indicator of how well you were controlling your diabetes, and in my book that is not the same thing as controlling your BG, although for sure controlling your BG is a part of that. Perhaps I am just overly touchy on this because there has been protein in my urine the last two times I had labs done. So my diet is a very tricky one. Obviously I can't eat too many carbs, but then I feel like I can't eat much protein either. Gah! SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm <SNIP> > Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you meant an indicator of how well you > were controlling your diabetes, and in my book that is not the same thing as [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Obviously I can't eat too many carbs, but then I feel like I can't eat much > protein either. Gah! Controlling BG levels is one important part of controlling (or trying to control) diabetes, but it is only one part of the equation. IME too many people focus on diet alone and have no idea what their diet is doing (or not doing) to their body. There are some things I can eat that don't have much effect on BG but raise BP. It is always a challenge to find the right combinations of food, exercise, meds, and common sense to make it all work for me. I'm having a few kidney issues myself. The hardest thing for me is to give up my coffee in the morning. If I don't leave it off, the little pH strip tells me I have been bad today :( Good luck on getting things together. I know it is a challenge. - Alan (back to work and lurking) > Perhaps I am just overly touchy on this because there has been protein in my > urine the last two times I had labs done. So my diet is a very tricky one. > Obviously I can't eat too many carbs, but then I feel like I can't eat much > protein either. Gah! Julie, protein in your urine is a very scary development, and I lived with it and worsening labs for years til I began eating much more protein and fat and reducing carbs. I haven't had any protein in my urine for years now. Protein isn't going to damage your kidneys, and in fact, it's what your body needs to build healthy new tissue. You don't have to binge on it or go super high, but you may need better sources of it while reducing carbs to a level that keeps your bg below 140 at all times to allow kidney recovery. I'm a bit messianic about this, having just spent years and finally weeks this fall in hospital watching my beloved FIL die of complicatons from renal failure. It's the worst that it gets, sheer horror and the years on dialysis leading to those final weeks were a misery, too. But reversible is possible at this stage. Is there any source of protein or any way to prepare it that you can tolerate? One that doesn't come with a lot of carbs attached? Any animal sources you can imagine yourself eating to save your own life and that of your child's mother? You're too damned young to be sliding down that particular slope, and it's a long, ugly slide, be sure of that. I hope you'll experiment and find a way to eat in whatever way improves your kidney test results, I urge you to, even if you have to be hypnotized to eat what you don't like. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > that of your child's mother? You're too damned young to be sliding down > that particular slope, and it's a long, ugly slide, be sure of that. Not that I can find. As I said in my other reply, they think I have delayed stomach emptying, but they don't know for sure because that test involves eating eggs. I am so allergic to eggs that I become violently ill so they won't do that test. The Endoscopy showed GERD and Barrett's Esophogus. As far as the stomach issues go, the vegan diet seems to be working the best for me. > I hope you'll experiment and find a way to eat in whatever way improves > your kidney test results, I urge you to, even if you have to be > hypnotized to eat what you don't like. When it comes to protein, it's not a matter of not liking it. It's a matter of what doesn't make me ill. Dairy, egg and almond allergies coupled with meat and too much fat (nuts), making me throw up or be in agony. SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm > Not that I can find. As I said in my other reply, they think I have delayed > stomach emptying, but they don't know for sure because that test involves > eating eggs. I am so allergic to eggs that I become violently ill so they > won't do that test. The Endoscopy showed GERD and Barrett's Esophogus. As > far as the stomach issues go, the vegan diet seems to be working the best > for me. Julie, gastroparesis is a complication of advanced hyperglycemia uncontrolled over time. I know you've had unpredictable responses and fairly high numbers at times and that could well be contributory. It's hard for me to imagine how a vegan diet, devoid of the quantity of bioavailable protein damaged tissues need for repair could help reverse any of your DM complications. Vegan diets tend to come with a lot of carb attached to proteins. > When it comes to protein, it's not a matter of not liking it. It's a matter > of what doesn't make me ill. Dairy, egg and almond allergies coupled with > meat and too much fat (nuts), making me throw up or be in agony. All meat, poultry and fish make you throw up or put you in agony? Susan > Julie, gastroparesis is a complication of advanced hyperglycemia > uncontrolled over time. I know this. I've also surmised that I most likely had diabetes for many years before I was finally diagnosed. In fact the reason I was diagnosed was because neuropathy had already set in. If I do in fact have this, it likely happened before I was even diagnosed with diabetes. >I know you've had unpredictable responses and > fairly high numbers at times and that could well be contributory. It's > hard for me to imagine how a vegan diet, devoid of the quantity of > bioavailable protein damaged tissues need for repair could help reverse > any of your DM complications. Vegan diets tend to come with a lot of > carb attached to proteins. Not a raw vegan diet. I don't eat much fruit at all. Fruit also upsets my stomach. In fact at times it is difficult for me to get enough carbs on this diet. I do eat various sprouts (made at home) as a source of carbs and protein. I occasionally eat raw corn and it seems to have little effect on my BG. > > When it comes to protein, it's not a matter of not liking it. It's a matter > > of what doesn't make me ill. Dairy, egg and almond allergies coupled with > > meat and too much fat (nuts), making me throw up or be in agony. > > All meat, poultry and fish make you throw up or put you in agony? Yes, at times. Actually the smell of most fish makes me want to throw up. Tuna is the only fish I can handle and I can only have it once or twice a month at best. I can not seem to eat much in the way of protein regardless of the source. If I don't throw it up, it sits in my stomach like a lead weight. The dieticians I've seen have told me I only need to eat 2-3 oz. of protein per day. I balked at this at first because it wasn't enough to fill me up. But now it seems that's about all my body can handle. In fact I can not eat very much food at one time, period. The whole thing is very confusing. If I do have gastroparesis then according to the textbook, a raw vegan diet would not be a good idea because I could get a bezoar from the roughage. So I've been advised to avoid roughage when my stomach is acting up. However it only seems to act up when I eat too much fat or protein. The Gastroenterologist did say my stomach was not reacting in a normal manner. He said when he first put the camera in there it was not moving at all. But then it began moving. Don't know what that means and apparently neither did he. SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm > I know this. I've also surmised that I most likely had diabetes for many > years before I was finally diagnosed. In fact the reason I was diagnosed > was because neuropathy had already set in. If I do in fact have this, it > likely happened before I was even diagnosed with diabetes. I understand that many of us, like you, have developed complications well before diagnosis. This is a well documented phenomenon in the research literature. But many such complications can be reversed or just improved with aggressive control of bg after diagnosis. Certainly their progression can be slowed. > Not a raw vegan diet. I don't eat much fruit at all. Fruit also upsets my > stomach. In fact at times it is difficult for me to get enough carbs on > this diet. I do eat various sprouts (made at home) as a source of carbs and > protein. I occasionally eat raw corn and it seems to have little effect on > my BG. How do you figure that raw vegetables don't come with a significant carb load? More critically, how are you going to build healthy new tissues without good, consistent sources of dietary protein. > Yes, at times. Actually the smell of most fish makes me want to throw up. > Tuna is the only fish I can handle and I can only have it once or twice a [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > all. But then it began moving. Don't know what that means and apparently > neither did he. Julie, I know you have many paradoxical responses and unusual reactions and sensitivities to foods. I wonder if it's also possible that these have causes a sort of reflexive eating disorder to develop? 2-3 ounces of protein per day is starvation level, as far as maintaining healthy organs, tissues, bone, etc. are concerned, as you probably know. Along with fat, it's the building block of life and health; people die from lack of protein and fat, they don't die from lack of carbohydrates. I wonder if the place that you're being evaluated also has an eating disorders unit to refer you to? I have a couple of young relatives with EDs, one of whom has a similar reaction to yours to fish and meat, but can manage to eat cut up bits of chicken, but also has very strong nausea reactions to certain textures and smells, and another one who was treated effectively for anorexia and maintains a very slim but okay weight and health; she's still disordered, and limits herself to almost all protein, no fat or carbs, virtually, but it's the healthiest she's been, and the fittest, compared to her fat free all carb years. I'm sorry you're developing such advanced complications at such a young age. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > just improved with aggressive control of bg after diagnosis. Certainly > their progression can be slowed. I don't know about reveresed, but certainly slowed. > > Not a raw vegan diet. I don't eat much fruit at all. Fruit also upsets my > > stomach. In fact at times it is difficult for me to get enough carbs on [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > load? More critically, how are you going to build healthy new tissues > without good, consistent sources of dietary protein. Because I know how many carbs are in what. A salad made with lettuce and other greens, some green onion, tomato, celery, peppers, carrots, etc. does not have a lot of carbs in it, even if I eat a huge one. I don't eat dressing. I usually top the salad with some nuts or sprouts. This is my protein source. Sprouts are packed with protein. There is protein in nuts. I am getting plenty of protein. I workout with weights. I've got lots of muscle. I doubt I would get muscle if I were protein deficient. I also use nutritional yeast. It contains both B vitamins and protein. I don't use this every day. I eat pumpkin seeds for breakfast almost every morning. They contain some carbs, but mainly protein and fat. I make a raw onion bread with sunflower seeds in it. I eat hemp seeds. All sources of protein. Some raw vegans use green smoothies as their main protein source. This doesn't appeal to me. But I've done my reasearch and I know that there are small amounts of protein in many vegetables. It is easy enough to get enough protein eating vegetables alone. It is the B vitamins that are lacking. I do supplement with those. I take plenty of supplements, all approved by my Dr. > > Yes, at times. Actually the smell of most fish makes me want to throw up. > > Tuna is the only fish I can handle and I can only have it once or twice a [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > of protein per day is starvation level, as far as maintaining healthy > organs, tissues, bone, etc. are concerned, as you probably know. Nonsese! That is *not* starvation level! And I don't have an eating disorder. I do eat small amounts of food for breakfast and lunch but mainly because of BG issues and the fact that I am not at all hungry at these times, most of the time. Now I find that skipping lunch most of the time helps me keep my BG in check. In prior times, skipping a meal would have given me a hypo or sent my BG soaring, either one. My Endo. knows I do not eat lunch and he approves of this so long as my BG isn't suffering and I am not suffering because of it. In fact, about the only time I do eat lunch is when I am visiting my parents and we go out to eat. Often all I have is a salad, or I split something with my daughter, eating only a few bites of it. If 2-3 ounces of protein per day were considered starvation level, then how could 2 different dieticians both have told me this? Back when I saw those dieticians, I was suffering from frequent hypos and that amount of food wasn't enough for me. I found that I not only had to eat more protein, but more carbs as well. I also was being allowed to run hyper thryoid and my Endo. at the time thought that my food was rushing right through me without being metabolized. I was also suffering from anemia. This is the only reason I was eating meat. I've since discovered that a dairy allergy can cause anemia. I stopped consuming dairy, the anemia stopped. I no longer have to take iron pills. >Along with fat, it's the building block of life and health; people die from > lack of protein and fat, they don't die from lack of carbohydrates. Well, now this sounds rather extreme. I can't say one way or the other because I haven't studied people who have died. My sources of fat are raw coconut oil (I try to eat 1-2 T. per day), olive oil, nuts and seeds. >I wonder if the place that you're being evaluated also has an eating > disorders unit to refer you to? I have a couple of young relatives with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > all protein, no fat or carbs, virtually, but it's the healthiest she's > been, and the fittest, compared to her fat free all carb years. I do NOT have an eating disorder and am rather incensed that you would even imply this. You can eat whatever diet you want. Whatever works for you. Fine. You don't see me trying to change what YOU eat. I am doing the best I can with my diet, and am seeing good Drs. now. Although I am not thrilled with my GP, the specialists I am seeing at the moment think he is on the ball what with the tests he has ordered and all. > I'm sorry you're developing such advanced complications at such a young age. I am 47. Maybe you think that is old. Some would dispute that. Up until I became pregnant at age 38, the only health problems I had were allergies, a bad knee and high BP. The bad knee I simply accepted. I'm a former dancer and I put my body through hell doing ballet. I pushed myself through injuries and learned to ignore the pain. I am happy to know that my daughter's dance studio does not do this. They take injuries and pain very seriously. My teacher did not. We were pushed to our limits and beyond. The pregnancy seemed to have stressed my body. This is when all my health problems began and they continue. Whatever. It's not going to do me any good to sit around and whine about it. I just do what I can do, when I can do it and go from there. SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm > Because I know how many carbs are in what. A salad made with lettuce and > other greens, some green onion, tomato, celery, peppers, carrots, etc. does [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > small amounts of protein in many vegetables. It is easy enough to get > enough protein eating vegetables alone. Only if you actually believe that 3 oz. of protein daily is adequate. > It is the B vitamins that are > lacking. I do supplement with those. I take plenty of supplements, all > approved by my Dr. That's great, but if a diet causes a severe nutritional deficiency the way a vegan diet does, then it's not truly fit for human survival, is it? > Nonsese! That is *not* starvation level! We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. Again, if you think your health is good or improving, then there's no reason to keep bringing it up, huh? And I don't have an eating > disorder. I do eat small amounts of food for breakfast and lunch but mainly > because of BG issues and the fact that I am not at all hungry at these [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > If 2-3 ounces of protein per day were considered starvation level, then how > could 2 different dieticians both have told me this? Because dietitians are very badly educated rote parrots who have done lots of damage to lots of diabetics and are at complete odds with all the relevent research? Back when I saw those > dieticians, I was suffering from frequent hypos and that amount of food > wasn't enough for me. I found that I not only had to eat more protein, but [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > stopped consuming dairy, the anemia stopped. I no longer have to take iron > pills. Kidney failure in DM also is associated with anemia, BTW. > Well, now this sounds rather extreme. I can't say one way or the other > because I haven't studied people who have died. My sources of fat are raw > coconut oil (I try to eat 1-2 T. per day), olive oil, nuts and seeds. It's not extreme, it's the biochemical textbook truth. I'm not saying no carbs should be part of your diet, but only that fat and protein are the only macronutrients you'll die from the lack of. > I do NOT have an eating disorder and am rather incensed that you would even > imply this. I'm sorry if you're offended, Julie, but you have so many of the same reactions to food that some of the eating disordered young people I know have. I don't disbelieve your symptoms or your allergies, but there's the other stuff could be unlearned so you could broaden your diet a bit if you want to. > You can eat whatever diet you want. Whatever works for you. Fine. You > don't see me trying to change what YOU eat. I am doing the best I can with > my diet, and am seeing good Drs. now. Although I am not thrilled with my > GP, the specialists I am seeing at the moment think he is on the ball what > with the tests he has ordered and all. Julie, I responded to you out of concern because your body is failing very badly, and you post about it with increasingly bad news. I posted out of concern, not a dietary plan to take over the world, one diabetic at a time. :-) > I am 47. Maybe you think that is old. I think what I said is that it's young, too young for all this crap that's happening to you. Susan <snip> > Only if you actually believe that 3 oz. of protein daily is adequate. I do and it is. I have proven this in another post. > > It is the B vitamins that are > > lacking. I do supplement with those. I take plenty of supplements, all > > approved by my Dr. > > That's great, but if a diet causes a severe nutritional deficiency the > way a vegan diet does, then it's not truly fit for human survival, is it? I never said it caused a "severe" nutritional deficiency. Why is it you seem to find it necessary to take it to the extreme? I am thinking you are anti anyone who does not want to eat meat for whatever reason. > > Nonsese! That is *not* starvation level! > > We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. Again, if you think your > health is good or improving, then there's no reason to keep bringing it > up, huh? Bring what up? My improving health? Why would I *not* want to bring it up? Perhaps there is another person out there who is suffering from the same things I was suffering from and I might be able to help them. In fact I have helped people in this very way. I know of one woman who thought she had hives and could not find the source when in fact she had dishydrosis, which I also have. If you keep being mis-diagnosed and undiagnosed and are suffering, you turn to anywhere you think you can get help! <snip> > Because dietitians are very badly educated rote parrots who have done > lots of damage to lots of diabetics and are at complete odds with all > the relevent research? Oh please! Now you're going to say they are badly educated? I guess you're the only one who's right though. Huh? You want us all to listen to you? How can you lump all people of one profession together? *sheesh* > Kidney failure in DM also is associated with anemia, BTW. Well, I have neither kidney failure nor anemia any more. It's pretty clear to me that the dairy allergy was causing that, since I've had it off and on throughout my life. In fact now that I think of it, the one time I didn't have anemia was when I went off of eating cheese (the only source of dairy I was eating at the time) because I was on a super low fat diet. This was way prior to diabetes. > > Well, now this sounds rather extreme. I can't say one way or the other > > because I haven't studied people who have died. My sources of fat are raw [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > carbs should be part of your diet, but only that fat and protein are the > only macronutrients you'll die from the lack of. And yet if you eat a diet of varied vegetables and non sweet fruits you'll get both! :) > > I do NOT have an eating disorder and am rather incensed that you would even > > imply this. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the other stuff could be unlearned so you could broaden your diet a bit > if you want to. Unlearned? Let's face it. You just want me to eat meat. You seem to want us all to eat meat! What about those people who think eating animals is morally and ethically wrong? Would you try to change them as well? I know people with eating disorders too. Some of them eat only sweets. Some binge eat. I don't do these things. So apparently you don't know that many people with eating disorders. <snip> > Julie, I responded to you out of concern because your body is failing > very badly, and you post about it with increasingly bad news. I posted > out of concern, not a dietary plan to take over the world, one diabetic > at a time. :-) Are you a Dr.? Not one of my Drs. said my body is failing very badly. In fact they all say I am doing quite well, all things considered. They are pleased with my labs. Now granted, I was concerned over the protein in the urine. My Drs. were not overly so. And my last A1c was higher than I would like but I am not placing much stock in that given that it was taken a mere 3 weeks after the one before and that one was fine. > > I am 47. Maybe you think that is old. > > I think what I said is that it's young, too young for all this crap > that's happening to you. Doesn't seem young to me. I remember a time when I thought 35 was old. I passed that a ways back. I might "look" young. Luckily my family ages well in terms of "looks". But genetically we are not well "medically". I have a cousin one year older than me with pretty much all of my problems and then some. Two other cousins just had back surgery for the very same problem. And the GERD is on both sides of the family. My nephew was diagnosed with GERD as a child. When it comes to medical problems, age doesn't matter. And I really hate it when people tell me I am "too young" for these things. That's what the Dr. told me when she diagnosed Fibromyalgia. Being the smart a.s I am, I asked her, "At what age should I get it then?" At any rate, we are straying from the subject, which was low carb diets. All you've succeeded to do with your posts to me is prove Dr. Bigg's point, at least in my opionion. SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm > <snip> > >>Only if you actually believe that 3 oz. of protein daily is adequate. > > I do and it is. I have proven this in another post. That didn't prove anything, you just cherry picked a lousy citation from about.com to support your assertion. >> > It is the B vitamins that are >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > seem to find it necessary to take it to the extreme? I am thinking you are > anti anyone who does not want to eat meat for whatever reason. Veganism causes severe deficiency in b12, which is a very uhealthy state. [snip] > Oh please! Now you're going to say they are badly educated? I guess you're > the only one who's right though. Huh? You want us all to listen to you? > How can you lump all people of one profession together? *sheesh* Um, I guess because I know a number of them, and none are well educated nor competent, relative to the existing science. Some nutritionists are better prepared educationally, folks with biochemistry backgrounds are. > Well, I have neither kidney failure nor anemia any more. When did your kidneys stop failing and protein stop appearing in your urine? > And yet if you eat a diet of varied vegetables and non sweet fruits you'll > get both! :) Again, we'll have to agree to disagree. > Unlearned? Let's face it. You just want me to eat meat. You seem to want > us all to eat meat! What about those people who think eating animals is > morally and ethically wrong? Would you try to change them as well? I don't care if you ever eat meat, I really don't. I apologize for feeling sorry for you after reading all your complaints, it won't happen again. Some of my best friends don't eat meat for moral reasons, at one time I didn't for years, but I and they make heroic efforts at getting adequate other sources of protein, most of which you also won't eat. > I know people with eating disorders too. Some of them eat only sweets. > Some binge eat. I don't do these things. So apparently you don't know that > many people with eating disorders. HUH? I knew many eating disordered folks, having worked in mental health for many years. I worked with anorexics, bulemics, folks with texture phobias, etc. It's not just sweets or binging. Sometimes it's sensation stuff, smell, texture, etc. Apparently, you don't know very much about the variety of eating disorder presentations. > Are you a Dr.? No, but I can read, and I spent many years doing medical and psychiatric case evaluation and supervision. Not one of my Drs. said my body is failing very badly. In > fact they all say I am doing quite well, all things considered. They are > pleased with my labs. Now granted, I was concerned over the protein in the > urine. My Drs. were not overly so. And my last A1c was higher than I would > like but I am not placing much stock in that given that it was taken a mere > 3 weeks after the one before and that one was fine. The protein in your urine is evidence of kidney damage as it was when I had it in mine. I hope you're able to reverse it, I know it's possible because I was able to do it. > Doesn't seem young to me. I'm sorry to hear that. I'm 52 and I still feel really young, though the years do have a way of marching on! I remember a time when I thought 35 was old. I > passed that a ways back. I might "look" young. Luckily my family ages well > in terms of "looks". But genetically we are not well "medically". I have a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > All you've succeeded to do with your posts to me is prove Dr. Bigg's point, > at least in my opionion. Dr. Bigg's never had a point, he just likes to dick around when he's bored, which is, apparently, quite often. Good luck with all your increasing health problems and food aversions, Julie. I sure don't envy you. Susan > x-no-archive: yes <snip> > HUH? I knew many eating disordered folks, having worked in mental > health for many years. I worked with anorexics, bulemics, folks with > texture phobias, etc. It's not just sweets or binging. Sometimes it's > sensation stuff, smell, texture, etc. Apparently, you don't know very > much about the variety of eating disorder presentations. I didn't say it was about just sweets or binging. However you said I had ALL of the traits of the people with eating disorders that you know. Clearly as you stated above, I do not. My brother also has problems with smells and textures of food as do several other people I know. Do they have eating disorders as well? <snip> > The protein in your urine is evidence of kidney damage as it was when I > had it in mine. I hope you're able to reverse it, I know it's possible > because I was able to do it. Really? My Dr. didn't say that. Nor do my labs. It is but one thing. There are more things that show on the labs with kidney damage than just that. My friend had kidney failure. She was on dialysis for years. And no, she didn't have diabetes. I also know what kind of diet she was on. > > Doesn't seem young to me. > > I'm sorry to hear that. I'm 52 and I still feel really young, though > the years do have a way of marching on! Whatever. > I remember a time when I thought 35 was old. I > > passed that a ways back. I might "look" young. Luckily my family ages well [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Dr. Bigg's never had a point, he just likes to dick around when he's > bored, which is, apparently, quite often. In your opinion. > Good luck with all your increasing health problems and food aversions, > Julie. I sure don't envy you. Whatever. SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm > I didn't say it was about just sweets or binging. However you said I had > ALL of the traits of the people with eating disorders that you know. That's not true, Julie, go back and read it. I asked if it were possible, said there were some commonalities. You certainly do NOT have all the traits, just some complaints in common. > Clearly as you stated above, I do not. Clearly, as I stated, I never said you did. My brother also has problems with > smells and textures of food as do several other people I know. Do they have > eating disorders as well? I don't know, I don't know them. I never said YOU have one, I asked if it were a possibility? > Really? My Dr. didn't say that. Nor do my labs. It is but one thing. > There are more things that show on the labs with kidney damage than just > that. My friend had kidney failure. She was on dialysis for years. And > no, she didn't have diabetes. I also know what kind of diet she was on. It is but a very worrisome thing. Susan > Veganism causes severe deficiency in b12, which is a very uhealthy state. Careless veganism can, but it doesn't have to. There are non-animal sources of B vitamins. Well, at least one--brewer's yeast. Tastes yucky, but I made myself have it during a six-month vegetarian experiment. SignatureWes Groleau He that complies against his will is of the same opinion still. -- Samuel Butler, 1612-1680 > > Veganism causes severe deficiency in b12, which is a very uhealthy state. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Tastes yucky, but I made myself have it > during a six-month vegetarian experiment. I've never tried Brewer's Yeast so I can't comment on the taste. I use nutritional yeast. It's yummy in nut cheese and my daughter likes it on popcorn. I also add it to pasta sauce. Gives it a cheesy taste. SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm >> Veganism causes severe deficiency in b12, which is a very uhealthy state. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Tastes yucky, but I made myself have it > during a six-month vegetarian experiment. They don't seem to source nor absorb it very well, though, and B12 deficiency is nasty. Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Susan It certainly is. And when it was discovered, the first thing the doctor asked me was if I were a vegetarian. A very, very nasty business -- sick enough that I couldn't get myself to the doctor. And since I am terrified of needles, when he said I had to have shots I insisted that no, that wouldn't do, and I would just take pills. He said I could take all the pills I wanted, but it was so bad, I must have shots on a weekly basis for X period of time -- I don't remember now how long. Yes -- very nasty business. -- BlueBrooke T2/D&E/June 2005 The things that come to those who wait will be the things left by those who got there first. >> Veganism causes severe deficiency in b12, which is a very uhealthy state. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Tastes yucky, but I made myself have it >during a six-month vegetarian experiment. Wonderfood: http://www.vegemite.com.au/index.cfm?fuseaction=VitaminB.welcome Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/ http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/ latest: Pompeii, Amalfi, Bari > Wonderfood: > http://www.vegemite.com.au/index.cfm?fuseaction=VitaminB.welcome I'd rather have VitaMeataVegemin SignatureWes Groleau A UNIX signature isn't a return address, it's the ASCII equivalent of a black velvet clown painting. It's a rectangle of carets surrounding a quote from a literary giant of weeniedom like Heinlein or Dr. Who. -- Chris Maeda Ha, ha, Dr. ..... Who's Chris Maeda? -- Wes Groleau >> Veganism causes severe deficiency in b12, which is a very uhealthy state. > Careless veganism can, but it doesn't have to. > There are non-animal sources of B vitamins. > Well, at least one--brewer's yeast. > Tastes yucky, but I made myself have it > during a six-month vegetarian experiment. This may be a peculiarly British taste, but I find it easy to eat brewer's yeast in the form of so-called "yeast extract" in the form of Marmite. A very tasty low carb breakfast I frequently eat is three eggs scrambled up with a spring onion, a garlic clove, a baby tomato, a big heaped teaspoonful of Marmite, a small teaspoon of turmeric, a spinkle of ground pepper. Oh, and I mustn't forget the oils: a slop of virgin olive, a slop of sesame, a slop of walnut, and a small knob of coconut. SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] On 11/28/06 9:11 AM, in article 4t38tlF121822U1@mid.individual.net, "Chris Malcolm" <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote: >>> Veganism causes severe deficiency in b12, which is a very uhealthy state. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > virgin olive, a slop of sesame, a slop of walnut, and a small knob of > coconut. I think all good Aussies will disagree with you there. Remember for them Vegemite rules! Martha T2 Canada > On 11/28/06 9:11 AM, in article 4t38tlF121822U1@mid.individual.net, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> brewer's yeast in the form of so-called "yeast extract" in the form >> of Marmite. A very tasty low carb breakfast I frequently eat is three >> eggs scrambled up with a spring onion, a garlic clove, a baby tomato, >> a big heaped teaspoonful of Marmite, a small teaspoon of turmeric, a >> spinkle of ground pepper. Oh, and I mustn't forget the oils: a slop >> of virgin olive, a slop of sesame, a slop of walnut, and a small >> knob of coconut. > > I think all good Aussies will disagree with you there. Remember for > them Vegemite rules! That goes without saying. >> On 11/28/06 9:11 AM, in article >4t38tlF121822U1@mid.individual.net, [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > >That goes without saying. But with a song: http://www.vegemite.com.au/Our_Heritage/Vegemite_Discovery/vegesong.wav Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/ http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/ latest: Pompeii, Amalfi, Bari >>> Veganism causes severe deficiency in b12, which is a very uhealthy >>> state. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > brewer's yeast in the form of so-called "yeast extract" in the form of > Marmite. I love brewer's yeast, I take a few desserts spoon blended with yoghurt, strawberries and Splenda every mid morning. The B vitamins must absorb better than pills because it leaves me very calm and relaxed. > This may be a peculiarly British taste, but I find it easy to eat > brewer's yeast in the form of so-called "yeast extract" in the form of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > virgin olive, a slop of sesame, a slop of walnut, and a small knob of > coconut. I asked a friend about Marmite because I found some in the store here. He's Canadian and now living in Australia. He told me to save my money. He said he can't stomach that, nor can he stomach Vegemite, but his kids who were born and raised in Australia love the stuff. He said they eat it spread on bread, but I can't remember what all else they eat with it. I do highly recommend the Nutritional Yeast though if you need to supplement with vitamin B. It can easily be used in a nut cheese (dehydrated or not), mixed into a dressing or sauce, sprinkled on popcorn, wherever you want a cheesy taste. Daughter and I were really Jonesing for some cheese after learning of of dairy allergies but we weren't going to be like some other people we know why tried the cheese just to see what it did to them. We don't want to ever suffer like that again. It's not totally a cheese taste, but if you've been without for as long as we have, it's a really good substitute. SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm >> <SNIP> >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > - Alan > (back to normal readings after spiking over Thanksgiving) Thanks Alan :-) I'm still waiting for Dr Biggs to respond to any of the posts where I have made this point - we are trying to manage diabetes; weight is a side issue (and a hips issue, and a thighs issue...) Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/ http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/ latest: Pompeii, Amalfi, Bari I will certainly agree that they don't work for everyone, and not everyone should be on a low carb diet, but I do think that the medical community should at least suggest this approach as a starting point for type 2 diabetics, before prescribing tons of meds. OK, maybe lots of people aren't going to be able to maintain it, but at least they should be given better information than to lay off concentrated sweets. Also, you said in an earlier post that usually people aren't being diagnosed with type 2 diabetes until they've had it for years, why is that? -- Cheri William C Biggs MD wrote in message ... >Alan, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. >> -- Me too. -- Cheri Alan S wrote in message speaking to Dr. Biggs <1hdhm25gf2st20kmpcpuhj0vld9g9mu84p@4ax.com>... >I don' |
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