> They do not make any sense, except to you.
>If the tax burden on individuals and companies that goes to funding the
>NHS were removed, that situation would change dramatically, leaving a
>very small number who would actually require funding from a state
>source.
So what proportion of my tax pound does go towards the NHS?
Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25
Andy Hall - 13 Jan 2008 16:21 GMT
>> If the tax burden on individuals and companies that goes to funding the
>> NHS were removed, that situation would change dramatically, leaving a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> D&E, 100ug thyroxine
> Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25
There are a whole assortment of articles that discuss that in different
ways - e.g.
http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/media/the_nhs_will.html
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/320/7238/865
The significant points are what proportion of GDP is the government
managing (it's now up to around 40% of GDP); and what is the outcome in
healthcare.
The Wanless report
(http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/kings_fund_publications/our_future.html)
makes for disappointing but unsurprising reading when the figures for
outcomes for key issues such as cancer survival are considered in
comparison with other countries. This is despite massive increases
in NHS spending.
At the end of it all, the reality is that the UK is still not spending
as much as a percentage of GDP on healthcare (public and private
sector) as other countries, so none of this is surprising.
Unfortunately, the press creates much confusion in people's minds by
focusing on the wrong issues such as postcode lotteries. Of course
there should be a variation in allocation of funds because healthcare
requirements do vary from area to area. At the very least, attempts
to homogenise this nationally should be abandoned because it's not
useful. Here's an article about that:
http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/briefings/local_variations.html
Even this organisation admits that some variation is a reasonable thing.
The question is then who should be deciding on how funding is raised,
spent and services delivered.
Recognising that people will have different healthcare needs over their
lifetime and that there will be a variation in ability to pay, funding
seeks to even out those costs across time and a population. In that
respect, the principle is one of insurance, whether that is done via
taxation and distribution or via insurance in the conventional sense.
The problems with doing this via taxation and distribution are a) that
governments cannot be relied upon to spend on healthcare to the degree
wanted by the individual - e.g. profligate waste on defence spending
since WW2 - and b) that the public sector does not do a good job of
managing the money. Therefore, I would much rather see an
arrangement where the government role in the managing of healthcare
funds is minimised, or at the very least, monies identifiably
segregated for healthcare. In other words, I pay £X per month, and/or
a percentage of income in some combination, but it goes to a
competitive arrangement of insurance providers so that admin costs are
minimised.
The second point is how should delivery be determined? The NHS has
been consistent in demonstrating that it is unable to manage and
allocate funding appropriate to the needs of geographical areas and
more importantly to individuals. Policy decisions are made on a far
too broad brush basis and with little regard to individual need and
preference. Theoretically, PCTs and their equivalent should have
improved local determination of how money is spent. As we know, this
is not very effective either for a variety of reasons including opacity
and lack of accountability - another public sector disease.
At the end of the day, people are responsible for their own healthcare.
To a significant extent, it is affected by factors that they can
control. It therefore makes little sense to have the determinants for
treatment where needed remote from the individual and under the control
of faceless civil servants. Far better would be for this to be
brought to an accountable local level where people can have a higher
degree of control. Even better still would be for them to be able to
make their own healthcare decisions including treatments without the
interference of nebulous government policies.
Nicky - 13 Jan 2008 22:32 GMT
>http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/320/7238/865
That is actively scary:
" The prime minister has pledged to raise total UK healthcare
spending by 2006 to match the European Union (EU) average as a
proportion of gross domestic product (9.0% in 1997, not 8% as
indicated by the prime minister)
All other things being equal, NHS spending would need to increase
in real terms by 9.7% a year over five years (by £29.2bn in total) to
reach the 9% target"
In other words, we're spending damn-all per capita.
Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25
Peter C - 13 Jan 2008 22:44 GMT
"Nicky" <ukc802466929@btconnect.com> /865
> That is actively scary:
> " The prime minister has pledged to raise total UK healthcare
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> In other words, we're spending damn-all per capita.
The current figure given is £4060 p.a. per HOUSEHOLD spent on the NHS.
What with your two children, your diabetes and your husband's back problem
your household is probably getting more than that ?
Since you have two dependent children your family's health care is probably
being subsidised by the rest of us. But that's one of the basic principles
of insurance - a pooling of risks.
Andy Hall - 14 Jan 2008 02:11 GMT
> "Nicky" <ukc802466929@btconnect.com> /865
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>>
> The current figure given is £4060 p.a. per HOUSEHOLD spent on the NHS.
Which is *way* too little, and assumes that income per household is the
same, which of course it is not, especially on a lifetime basis.
I spend approaching that figure (grossed up) on private healthcare in
order to make up for the many shortcomings of the NHS. It is heavily
penalised as opposed to being encouraged, which is fundamentally wrong.
There is taxation as a benefit, NIC for me, NIC for employer and
insurance premium tax.
> What with your two children, your diabetes and your husband's back problem
> your household is probably getting more than that ?
> Since you have two dependent children your family's health care is probably
> being subsidised by the rest of us.
That is perfectly fine when one considers lifetime and population issues.
> But that's one of the basic principles
> of insurance - a pooling of risks.
Except that it is a nonsense to suggest that taxation, management of
funds by government and NHS delivery is "insurance". It isn't.
- There is no choice over whether or not the individual subscribes to
the scheme
- There is gross wastage in the collection and distribution of funding.
- The public sector is involved in the management and delivery.
- There is no control for the individual on whether his tax is spent on
defence, education, healthcare,... etc.
If I buy an insurance in the private sector, it does what I buy. I
don't buy a motor insurance policy to cover street sweeping, or a
contents insurance policy to cover defence purchases.
I can buy a life assurance policy that pays out if I snuff it; a
buildings insurance policy to cover the house burning down. I can
also buy a healthcare policy which covers specific and clarified
aspects of that.
I can't buy an "NHS policy" and civil servants remain unable to clarify
how much tax money is spent on healthcare and indeed how effective that
is. This does not represent good stewardship of anybody's money,
and the public sector should not be trusted with it.
Nicky - 14 Jan 2008 08:40 GMT
>The current figure given is £4060 p.a. per HOUSEHOLD spent on the NHS.
>What with your two children, your diabetes and your husband's back problem
>your household is probably getting more than that ?
Yes, we likely are this year and last - the costs of hubby's steroid
jabs under anaesthetic are quite astonishing. However, that's probably
what my NIC payments are alone, let alone hubby's when he's working,
and I've had that level of payment for a decade and will probably
continue that level of contribution for another decade or more. Given
that keeping us both in employment for as long as possible, to
subsidise other people in a less favourable position, ought to be the
aim of the NHS, the back costs and my £11 per month test strip cost
are a good investment. Perhaps getting hubby down the treatment route
a year ago, and giving me more test strips and somewhat more proactive
diabetes care, might be seen as an even better investment.
Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25
simon - 15 Jan 2008 14:59 GMT
> "Nicky" <ukc802466929@btconnect.com> /865
>> That is actively scary:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> being subsidised by the rest of us. But that's one of the basic principles
> of insurance - a pooling of risks.
I currently pay £25ish for DenPlan Dental Insurance and get the most
fantastic service, quarterly hygienist, twice yearly checkup and all
work done. Bloody great service, wouldn't go NHS if you paid me!
Does anyone know of a Co-payement insurance scheme so that if someone's
NHS trust was not willing to pay for, say Byetta, they could get that
privately but still get the rest of their care NHS funded?
Simon
Andy Hall - 15 Jan 2008 16:13 GMT
>> "Nicky" <ukc802466929@btconnect.com> /865
>>> That is actively scary:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> fantastic service, quarterly hygienist, twice yearly checkup and all
> work done. Bloody great service, wouldn't go NHS if you paid me!
NHS dentistry hasn't existed in any useful way for many years.
> Does anyone know of a Co-payement insurance scheme so that if someone's
> NHS trust was not willing to pay for, say Byetta, they could get that
> privately but still get the rest of their care NHS funded?
>
> Simon
Wouldn't that be nice......
This does warrant investigation.
I just received some information from a newly opened private GP
practice near to me and will be checking into it further. They offer
the full range of GP services equivalent to an NHS GP and indicate that
one can register with them while remaining registered with one's NHS
GP. There was also mention that they can offer prescriptions for
drugs that are not available on the NHS.
I will be contacting them to find out more.
It may also be that an NHS GP can issue a private prescription.
Byetta would appear to cost in the region of £65 - 70 per month.
Andy Hall - 13 Jan 2008 23:01 GMT
>> http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/320/7238/865
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> In other words, we're spending damn-all per capita.
Yes. Therein lies one of the problems and it gets progressively worse
as the population ages and as newer, higher tech treatments become
available.
It gets progressively worse in other respects as well - for example
already policy on what and who gets funded is made in terms of quality
adjusted life years - a euphemism that measures people on their
perceived value to "society".
An example I heard this week from a colleague who had an elderly
relative living in Canada. In her late 80s this lady had a fall and
required a hip replacement, which was eventually agreed. A few years
later, she required the other hip to be done, but this was refused with
various excuses given, but it was very clear that life expectancy had
been the main factor - there weren't any clinical reasons because she
had had exemplary health. After a lot of fighting and pushing of the
state system, the procedure was carried out shortly after her 90th
birthday. She lived for another 10 years after that.
This is another reason why I am not at all comfortable with state run,
blanket policies that don't account for the individual patient, their
needs and their preferences. The patient should be the main
determinant of what happens.
Peter C - 13 Jan 2008 17:00 GMT
> So what proportion of my tax pound does go towards the NHS?
None of your "tax" goes on the NHS supposedly.
It is funded through your National Insurance Contributions (NICS).
NICS are a health and welfare insurance policy you have to have by law and
which the Govt obligingly manages for you.
Beav - 13 Jan 2008 17:35 GMT
>> So what proportion of my tax pound does go towards the NHS?
>>
> None of your "tax" goes on the NHS supposedly.
The operative word being "supposedly".
> It is funded through your National Insurance Contributions (NICS).
Partly funded.
> NICS are a health and welfare insurance policy you have to have by law and
> which the Govt obligingly manages for you.
Or "overmanages".

Signature
Beav
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Andy Hall - 13 Jan 2008 21:15 GMT
>> So what proportion of my tax pound does go towards the NHS?
>>
> None of your "tax" goes on the NHS supposedly.
There is not clear and transparent accounting on this.
> It is funded through your National Insurance Contributions (NICS).
Mmmm.....
> NICS are a health and welfare insurance policy you have to have by law and
> which the Govt obligingly manages for you.
Laws can be changed, and I don't find government management of my money
an obliging thing at all.
>>>> We bitch about not getting enough prescriptions for strips but here is
>>>> a salutary reminder about what can happen in other systems ( America)
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> NHS were removed, that situation would change dramatically, leaving a
> very small number who would actually require funding from a state source.
No. I'm afraid not. Unless workplace coverage is mandated, many small businesses will avoid the expense and paperwork and leave it to the employees to manage themselves and negotiate individually. For me, getting insurance as an individual is *amazingly* expensive, and the out of pocket expenses are devastating for an ambulance trip or an endocrinologist visit.
Then there are the somewhat poor, who are often ill-equipped to make the choices of "cable TV bill" versus "glucose test strips".
>> That would also include all the insurance workers collecting the
>> insurance money to fund your type of scheme.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> numbers of employees in HMRC and the NHS is the third largest in the
> world. Both situations are a disgrace.
Oh. Oh, my. Friend, I've worked in emergency and psychiatric medicine in the US's private system, and I've got to tell you, you're on crack about it being "efficient". The layers of bureaucracy and waste are rather different from those at the NHS that I've been seeing up close for the last few years, but don't believe that they don't exist.
>> What you want would be just
>> as waste full with the money
>
> Incorrect. There is incentive to minimise administrative overhead.
Not when you're the administrator whose job would be eliminated. These people fight back, in fascinating ways. Watching bean counters cackle with glee and with reassured job security every time a new layer of "oversight" is added, in both private and public institutions, is a sad opportunity to say "I told you so" to those who invented the paperwork to eliminate a perceived wrong.
>> but the waste would be called profit and
>> would go straight into the share holders pocket who would have the tax
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Who do you imagine the shareholders to be? Hmm.. It couldn't be
> savings schemes, pension schemes etc. could it?
Some, yes. But take a good look at how executive salaries are paid. In the US, a tremendous amount of it is paid in stock, especially in stock options, in order to avoid reporting requirements for salary.
>> What about the insurance companies? If the pension schemes are examples
>> of your utopia policing would have to be a lot heavier and quicker at
>> finding the companies in it fore the fast buck.
>
> Pension schemes are an example of something else plundered by the
> government.
And often plundered worse by the corporation that created it. Take a good look at the Enron scandal in the USA.
>> They do not make any sense, except to you.
>
> Don't confuse your lack of lateral thought with something not making
> sense to you.
I'm watching this from outside, as a visitor to the UK from the US's system, and I think your sense of reality is equivalent to the one that says
>> They
>> stink of self interest.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Equally, those wishing to spend more of their income on healthcare
> should be in a position to do so.
And there is always a conflict between what people as patients believe should be covered, and what people as bureaucrats are willing to fund. It gets... awkward negotiating this. We see this right now with glucose test strips, and especially with insulin pumps.
>> Tip first take your self interest out of the equation and think of a way
>> to funding a true NHS.
>
> It's funny how as soon as an alternative approach to healthcare than
> socialised medicine is suggested, that people assume that there is self
> interest. There isn't. You are simply not thinking laterally enough.
As an American here, I've got to admit that the NHS is better for chronic medical care. Where it bites is funding new approaches, mostly due to the layers of federal bureaucracy involved. (The PCT turf wars alone are as awful, and amusing to people with odd senses of humor, as any state politics in the USA.)
> There is no such thing and can be no such thing as a "true NHS". The
> idea was unfundable from the very outset. We are essentially living with
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> government taxing it at least four times over, indicates that the NHS is
> a failure in terms of its ability to deliver what patients want.
It's a two-tier system, unsurprisingly. The lower tier here is vastly, vastly better than the lower tier in the USA: universal health care is an important lack in helping the poor be *able* to work and be productive.
Andy Hall - 13 Jan 2008 16:35 GMT
>> If the tax burden on individuals and companies that goes to funding the
>> NHS were removed, that situation would change dramatically, leaving a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> businesses will avoid the expense and paperwork and leave it to the
> employees to manage themselves and negotiate individually.
Obviously one would mandate coverage.
> For me, getting insurance as an individual is *amazingly* expensive,
> and the out of pocket expenses are devastating for an ambulance trip or
> an endocrinologist visit.
>
> Then there are the somewhat poor, who are often ill-equipped to make
> the choices of "cable TV bill" versus "glucose test strips".
Therein lies a different question. Should the state be nannying
people on decisions like that? I think not.
>>> That would also include all the insurance workers collecting the
>>> insurance money to fund your type of scheme.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> in the US's private system, and I've got to tell you, you're on crack
> about it being "efficient".
Who said anything advocating a U.S. system?
> The layers of bureaucracy and waste are rather different from those at
> the NHS that I've been seeing up close for the last few years, but
> don't believe that they don't exist.
I wouldn't be that naive.
>>> What you want would be just
>>> as waste full with the money
>>
>> Incorrect. There is incentive to minimise administrative overhead.
>
> Not when you're the administrator whose job would be eliminated.
If a job is unjustifiable it is unjustifiable.
> These people fight back, in fascinating ways. Watching bean counters
> cackle with glee and with reassured job security every time a new layer
> of "oversight" is added, in both private and public institutions, is a
> sad opportunity to say "I told you so" to those who invented the
> paperwork to eliminate a perceived wrong.
In the end, it comes to a matter of administrative cost.
>>> but the waste would be called profit and
>>> would go straight into the share holders pocket who would have the tax
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> the US, a tremendous amount of it is paid in stock, especially in stock
> options, in order to avoid reporting requirements for salary.
There is nothing wrong with executive stock options as part of
remuneration packages. Trading in those by executives is a matter of
public record.
>>> What about the insurance companies? If the pension schemes are examples
>>> of your utopia policing would have to be a lot heavier and quicker at
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> And often plundered worse by the corporation that created it. Take a
> good look at the Enron scandal in the USA.
Indeed, but hardly the same. The Enron scandal came about because of
fraud, but more importantly because of a lack of proper statutory
auditing procedure.
>>> They do not make any sense, except to you.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> system, and I think your sense of reality is equivalent to the one that
> says
I am not making comparisons with the U.S. system, nor am I advocating
what is done in the U.S.
>>> They
>>> stink of self interest.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> It gets... awkward negotiating this. We see this right now with glucose
> test strips, and especially with insulin pumps.
There are ways to address these issues. Obviously where possible
detail of policy cover should be checked when buying. Other approaches
involve mandating cover on certain areas. Of course this will
increase premiums, but whichever way one looks at it, an increase in
healthcare need has to be matched by individuals being willing to pay
for it, whether via insurance or via taxation.
>>> Tip first take your self interest out of the equation and think of a way
>>> to funding a true NHS.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> alone are as awful, and amusing to people with odd senses of humor, as
> any state politics in the USA.)
The PCTs are certainly a case in point. The principle of local
determination is a good one. The problem is lack of accountability.
>> There is no such thing and can be no such thing as a "true NHS". The
>> idea was unfundable from the very outset. We are essentially living
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> an important lack in helping the poor be *able* to work and be
> productive.
Having universal healthcare is entirely reasonable. Trying to
pretend that it can and should be the same for everybody is a nonsense
for a multitude of reasons.