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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / July 2006

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Trinkwasser - 20 Jun 2006 22:30 GMT
The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds is a charity whose
purpose is to increase the numbers and variety of birds.

The local Wildlife Trusts are charities whose purpose is to increase
the numbers and variety of other wildlife.

Diabetes UK is a charity.
Beav - 20 Jun 2006 23:14 GMT
> The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds is a charity whose
> purpose is to increase the numbers and variety of birds.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Diabetes UK is a charity.

Thank f.ck for that Trink. I was getting lonely :-))

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Beav

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DaveT - 20 Jun 2006 23:16 GMT
> The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds is a charity whose
> purpose is to increase the numbers and variety of birds.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Diabetes UK is a charity.

They do increase the numbers of researchers if not the variety.
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T1 dx 1955 DAFNE
Basal Hypurin BeefL
Bolas Lispro as required

Phildo - 21 Jun 2006 11:34 GMT
> The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds is a charity whose
> purpose is to increase the numbers and variety of birds.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Diabetes UK is a charity....

.....whose purpose is to increase the numbers and variety of diabetics ;-)

What is this grudge you have against diabetes UK? It's getting very boring.

Phildo
Flying Rat - 21 Jun 2006 12:17 GMT
> > The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds is a charity whose
> > purpose is to increase the numbers and variety of birds.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Phildo

I wouldn't say I have 'a grudge' against them as they are a visible and
useful tool, just that like many such organisations they tend to react
slowly and are too fond of taking the party line. That's my position
anyway.

I'd like to see them be more dynamic, campaign harder and drop their
somewhat outdated dietary advice! They also seem to be a bit too cozy
with the drug people and could possibly position their stance a little
more independently.

A necessary evil is the closest to my feelings on them. We'd be in a
poorer position if they weren't there.

Ratty
Trinkwasser - 22 Jun 2006 12:32 GMT
>> The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds is a charity whose
>> purpose is to increase the numbers and variety of birds.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>What is this grudge you have against diabetes UK? It's getting very boring.

Well I honestly don't know how well they do for Type 1s, but I can
guarantee that if I followed their dietary advice, I'd be doing
exactly what I've been doing all my life which is running excessively
high BG and getting worse much more rapidly than I so far have.

They not only seem to be way way out of step with current best
practice but I dislike their spokespersons' habit of "talking down to
the thickies" at every opportunity.

Compare and contrast with what I consider to be "sensible" sites,
Mendosa, Jenny's site of course, that other guy whose name I forget,
Bernstein?, Medscape, Steven Edelman, oh a humungous list I have of
sites which concern *information* without preaching.
Chris Malcolm - 24 Jul 2006 10:15 GMT
>>> The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds is a charity whose
>>> purpose is to increase the numbers and variety of birds.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>
>>.....whose purpose is to increase the numbers and variety of diabetics ;-)

>>What is this grudge you have against diabetes UK? It's getting very boring.

> Well I honestly don't know how well they do for Type 1s, but I can
> guarantee that if I followed their dietary advice, I'd be doing
> exactly what I've been doing all my life which is running excessively
> high BG and getting worse much more rapidly than I so far have.

> They not only seem to be way way out of step with current best
> practice but I dislike their spokespersons' habit of "talking down to
> the thickies" at every opportunity.

When I was first diagnosed two years ago I happened upon a DUK
campaign caravan. They were nice friendly people and gave me lots of
leaflets. I was impressed that they were putting out that kind of
effort to reach diabetics. I was still pretty scared and demoralised
by my recent diagnosis, and was most encouraged by their fiendly
support.

H'ever, I already knew from using my meter how bad the kind of diet
they suggested was for me. In fact it was eating just that kind of
sensible healthy diet which had already caused me some diabetic
damage, such as neuropathy, glaucoma, heart attack, etc.. I tried
discussing that with them.

They assumed I was ignorant and stupid and told me a lot of
kindergarten nonsense about diet. They assumed my BG readings were
either wrong or I was misunderstanding them and ought to get my doctor
to explain BG readings to me.  I tried to get them to raise their
level of discussion by pointing out that I was a university academic
with a biological education who could actually understand science,
design experiments, calibrate measuring intruments. etc., but it made
no difference. They had clearly all being trained in how to be nice to
stupid ignorant people and couldn't depart from their scripts.

So I looked up their web pages, and tried emailing them to discuss
their dietary advice. Despite my deliberately plentiful clues that I
wasn't a stupid ignorant person with disatrously uncontrolled blood
sugars they insisted on talking down to me as though I was.

I suspect this is a typical misapplication of evidence-based
management. Statistics show that most UK diabetics are stupid and
ignorant, have badly controlled blood sugars, and eat too much fast
food. So the most cost-effective way for DUK to spend their money is
to aim it at stupid ignorant badly controlled diabetics. In order not
to discourage them they give them achievable BG targets and achievable
improvements in diet. And if you happen already to be doing better
than their targets they give you advice to help you worsen back to
their targets :-(

It's the kind of thing that happens when you try to run an
organisation efficiently by using managers trained to set targets,
monitor outcomes, etc.. Everything looks good statistically in terms
of target tick boxes. Intelligence and understanding are ignored
because they take too long to measure. Thinking is discouraged because
it wastes time in committee meetings.  Just follow the script and tick
the boxes.

> Compare and contrast with what I consider to be "sensible" sites,
> Mendosa, Jenny's site of course, that other guy whose name I forget,
> Bernstein?, Medscape, Steven Edelman, oh a humungous list I have of
> sites which concern *information* without preaching.

Exactly. Sadly I now avoid DUK because trying to interact with them
was in the end infuriating and insulting. I really tried to make
friends with them, and I'm disappointed to find that, like the NHS, in
pursuit of financial business-like efficiency they've fallen into the
hands of blinkered tick box managers.

Signature

Chris Malcolm        cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk              DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Trinkwasser - 30 Jul 2006 20:54 GMT
>>>> The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds is a charity whose
>>>> purpose is to increase the numbers and variety of birds.
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>damage, such as neuropathy, glaucoma, heart attack, etc.. I tried
>discussing that with them.

>They assumed I was ignorant and stupid and told me a lot of
>kindergarten nonsense about diet. They assumed my BG readings were
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>no difference. They had clearly all being trained in how to be nice to
>stupid ignorant people and couldn't depart from their scripts.

Ba-BING! Yes I've never actuall talked to them but that's exactly the
same impression I got from their spokeswomen when they've been in the
meeja.

>So I looked up their web pages, and tried emailing them to discuss
>their dietary advice. Despite my deliberately plentiful clues that I
>wasn't a stupid ignorant person with disatrously uncontrolled blood
>sugars they insisted on talking down to me as though I was.

I got exactly the same crap, only secondhand from a dietician. OK she
was slim and quite cute and hardly had a moustache at all so clearly
the diet worked *for her*. But because it was making my lipids and BP
worse, she went off looking for even more fats to eliminate, including
such things as avocado which we now know to be beneficial. Then when
my lipids got even worse still she wrote that I was not obeying the
diet.

It took I don;t know how long for people here to clue me in, and point
to me numerous sources of information which suggested dropping the
carbs rather than the fats was the correct answer, and so it has
proved: similarly she and the GP were determined NOT to mention the
D-word, maybe because they didn;t want to scare me but more likely
because they didn't want to show up their late colleague, who had told
me categorically I was not diabetic, just as he had told me I didn't
have gallstones, for the dangerous fuckwit he was. (Apparently he was
notorious for prescribing antacids to someone who was having a heart
attack)

They all had this "we know things about you but we aren't going to
tell you what they are" attitude which I find annoying to say the
least, and at worst unhealthmaking.

At least my current GP seems to believe in sharing information and
discussing things rather than just talking down to the thickies, which
makes a major improvement: although she handed out the regulation
low-fat high-carb diet sheet she listened to why I wasn't following it
and looked at the meter readings and agreed that doing what works is
more important than following a set of written rules.

>I suspect this is a typical misapplication of evidence-based
>management. Statistics show that most UK diabetics are stupid and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>than their targets they give you advice to help you worsen back to
>their targets :-(

And eliminating a few jars of marmalade which contain sorbitol instead
of sugar, while ignoring the huge quantities of fast carbs laced with
trans fats <g> sometimes you have to rock the boat in order to bale it
out or you sink

>It's the kind of thing that happens when you try to run an
>organisation efficiently by using managers trained to set targets,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>it wastes time in committee meetings.  Just follow the script and tick
>the boxes.

You too have met ISO 9001 <sad grin>

>> Compare and contrast with what I consider to be "sensible" sites,
>> Mendosa, Jenny's site of course, that other guy whose name I forget,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>pursuit of financial business-like efficiency they've fallen into the
>hands of blinkered tick box managers.

What I CAN'T understand is how all this information is out there, and
easily found when you have someone sensible to point you to it, yet it
hasn't sunk in to the people who could do the best job of circulating
it.

When I was at college, one of my colleagues wanted to be a Social
Worker, basically because she believed she had the right to tell the
lower classes what to do.

I described her as "thinking that poverty meant only having one Volvo,
and a deprived childhood meant having to ride one of your sister's
ponies".

Sadly I see that same attitude alive and well in DUK. And judging from
the threads I was reading in asd, also in the ADA.

Now I can understand the ADA not wishing to bite the hand of Big
Pharma, I'm less able to understand the relationship between DUK and
the food industry, unless they get secret donations from the Wheat
Marketing Board <G>

The twoX three biggest things I've learned

[1] diabetes is NOT a one size fits all disease, bu a whole bunch of
similar but different and overlapping conditions

[2] Type 2 types are progressive BUT the progression can be slowed if
not stopped altogether

[3]  it's one of the few diseases where you can get accurate real-time
feedback on your attempts to deal with it IF you have access to enough
test strips, which is something DUK could actually DO something about
by educating doctors and especially PCTs to the benefits of testing
 
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