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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / August 2005

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doctors are testing an experimental drug called ranirestat that blocks the enzyme that turns glucose into alcohol.

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WeeBit - 19 Aug 2005 02:23 GMT
http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3737922
GysdeJongh - 19 Aug 2005 12:24 GMT
> http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3737922

Hi WeeBit,
found some more on Ranirestat ( an aldose reductase inhibitor ) Made by
Dainippon Pharmaceuticals

First Investigational Drug to Address Underlying Cause of Diabetic Neuropathy, a
Disease That Affects Half the World's Diabetics

Only Academic Medical Center in Tri-State Metropolitan Area Chosen for Trial

NEW YORK (June 9, 2005) - Physician-scientists at NewYork-Presbyterian
Hospital/Weill Cornell Medical Center are beginning a Phase III Clinical Trial
of Ranirestat, a promising new investigational drug. Ranirestat is the first
drug to address the underlying cause of diabetic sensorimotor polyneuropathy
(DSP), also known as diabetic neuropathy, which is the most serious and common
complication facing diabetics.

The drug being tested in this trial, Ranirestat, inhibits the powers of aldose
reductase, and prevents it from turning glucose into sorbitol. In the drug's
Phase II trial, Ranirestat reduced sorbitol levels by 65% to 84%. In addition,
nerve function, as measured by nerve conduction studies, improved. This trial
was headed by Dr. Vera Bril at the University of Toronto.

Thanks for this usefull link
Gys
Chris J. - 19 Aug 2005 19:32 GMT
>The drug being tested in this trial, Ranirestat, inhibits the powers of aldose
>reductase, and prevents it from turning glucose into sorbitol. In the drug's
>Phase II trial, Ranirestat reduced sorbitol levels by 65% to 84%. In addition,
>nerve function, as measured by nerve conduction studies, improved. This trial
>was headed by Dr. Vera Bril at the University of Toronto.

Forgive me for asking what may be a stupid question, but if Sorbitol
levels are the problem, would it not also be wise for diabetics to
avoid ingesting Sorbitol, which is a commonly used "sugar alcohol"
sweetener?
None Given - 19 Aug 2005 19:45 GMT
> Forgive me for asking what may be a stupid question, but if Sorbitol
> levels are the problem, would it not also be wise for diabetics to
> avoid ingesting Sorbitol, which is a commonly used "sugar alcohol"
> sweetener?

I'd like to know that myself and what about the other SAs, too.

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Chris J. - 20 Aug 2005 02:30 GMT
>> Forgive me for asking what may be a stupid question, but if Sorbitol
>> levels are the problem, would it not also be wise for diabetics to
>> avoid ingesting Sorbitol, which is a commonly used "sugar alcohol"
>> sweetener?
>
>I'd like to know that myself and what about the other SAs, too.

I was starting to have grave doubts about those even before this
issue!  
GysdeJongh - 19 Aug 2005 22:22 GMT
> >The drug being tested in this trial, Ranirestat, inhibits the powers of aldose
> >reductase, and prevents it from turning glucose into sorbitol. In the drug's
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> avoid ingesting Sorbitol, which is a commonly used "sugar alcohol"
> sweetener?

Hi Chris,

If you eat sorbital it is adsorbed in your small intestine and enters your blood
stream.
If you compare it with sugar , glucose :

1) you need much less sorbitol for the same sweet
2) Glucose enters cells fast , also nerve cells where it is converted to
sorbitol anyway the much smaller amount sorbitol you eat gives rise to a much
smaller amount of sorbitol in the verve cell
3) You can not prevent sorbitol in your cells by not eating it because your body
makes it.

So it is a bit like glucose : bad if you are diabetic but you cannot prevent it
in your body by not eating it. You can eat less of it , or other things ,
sorbitol seems a goog choise if you want a sweet taste

hth
Gys
Chris J. - 20 Aug 2005 01:40 GMT
>If you eat sorbital it is adsorbed in your small intestine and enters your blood
>stream.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>3) You can not prevent sorbitol in your cells by not eating it because your body
>makes it.

OK, thanks!
I see how you can't prevent it, but if *some* of the sorbitol you eat
ends up in your nerve cells, wouldn't it be better not to eat it?
(and, of course, not eat more glucose in place of it).

>So it is a bit like glucose : bad if you are diabetic but you cannot prevent it
>in your body by not eating it. You can eat less of it , or other things ,
>sorbitol seems a goog choise if you want a sweet taste

Wouldn't a different sweetener like, say, splenda, work for the taste
but without the sorbitol?
GysdeJongh - 20 Aug 2005 13:28 GMT
> >If you eat sorbital it is adsorbed in your small intestine and enters your blood
> >stream.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Wouldn't a different sweetener like, say, splenda, work for the taste
> but without the sorbitol?

Hi Chris,
I admit , these things can get confusing.

Most systems in your body are redundant and rely on heavy feedback , like any
robust system. Meaning : if you knock-out one system , like as much of sorbitol
or glucose you can , than an other system will take over and you will stay
alive. There is a small group of eskimo's living on very high fat. If you lower
one compound , like sorbitol or glucose , your body will signal it and the
feedback will cause to counteract it.

The problem , as I see it , is that by 10 - 20 years ( yes , that long , amazed
me too) too high glucose in our bloodstream and the accompanying high amount of
sorbitol the nerve cells eventually gave up , got damaged.

To formulate it very short : I eated too much , I weighted 117 kg at some point
. Still for me this does not prove that food is poison. I just need to eat much
less.

So the solution is not to avoid all sorbitol (the amount you eat is small
compared to the amount your body makes and your body will replenish it). The
solution might be to block the conversion of glucose to sorbitol by an aldose
reductase inhibitor. Then there will be much less sorbitol in your nerves. Your
body copes with this sutiation by swithching to other systems than sorbitol. It
is now under investigation if this works :

1) does the pain get less
2) can your body overcome it by switching to other systems or what are the side
effects of preventing your body to make sorbitol.

We will soon know. Several late phase clinical trials are underway.

One other thing
Sorbitol is a small solulable molecule
There are no transport systems known in mamals
If the amount of sorbitol gets to high the nerve cell will swell up
Like your skin when you sit in the bath too long
This seems to cause the pain
The same thing hapens when you eat too much salt
For me when I ingest too much salt my feet get swollen
The pain gets worse

hth
Gys
Chris J. - 21 Aug 2005 00:15 GMT
>"Chris J." <chris@noadress.com> wrote in message

>Hi Chris,
>I admit , these things can get confusing.

>Most systems in your body are redundant and rely on heavy feedback , like any
>robust system. Meaning : if you knock-out one system , like as much of sorbitol
>or glucose you can , than an other system will take over and you will stay
>alive. There is a small group of eskimo's living on very high fat. If you lower
>one compound , like sorbitol or glucose , your body will signal it and the
>feedback will cause to counteract it.

OK, I understand so far....

>The problem , as I see it , is that by 10 - 20 years ( yes , that long , amazed
>me too) too high glucose in our bloodstream and the accompanying high amount of
>sorbitol the nerve cells eventually gave up , got damaged.

>To formulate it very short : I eated too much , I weighted 117 kg at some point
>. Still for me this does not prove that food is poison. I just need to eat much
>less.

Same here... I was 95kg at one point. I'd been gaining weight for
years, in spite of increasing exercise, due to an increasingly
insatiable appetite. I now realize that this was probably due to my
diabetes.

>So the solution is not to avoid all sorbitol (the amount you eat is small
>compared to the amount your body makes and your body will replenish it).

This sounds sort of like the situation with Cholesterol?

> The
>solution might be to block the conversion of glucose to sorbitol by an aldose
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>We will soon know. Several late phase clinical trials are underway.

I hope the trials go well and it is approved soon.

Thanks very much for helping me to understand this issue!!!
Guys - 21 Aug 2005 00:30 GMT
>>"Chris J." <chris@noadress.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
>Thanks very much for helping me to understand this issue!!!

This is not the first time that the Sorbitol issue
has been investigated.

What I am seeing is messing in one area may backfire
in the long run.

Short cutting a proven approach  so we can do the simple
pill idea has failed many times.

We still need to discuss the human body a lot.  We do
have a lot to learn.
                                  Guy.
Nicky - 19 Aug 2005 22:24 GMT
>>The drug being tested in this trial, Ranirestat, inhibits the powers of
>>aldose
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> avoid ingesting Sorbitol, which is a commonly used "sugar alcohol"
> sweetener?

I don't THINK that ingested sorbitol is a problem. Certainly one of the
pathways to retinopathy involves sorbitol being formed in your eye - and I
can't think of any way of ingested sorbitol getting there!

Nicky.

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GysdeJongh - 20 Aug 2005 13:42 GMT
> >>The drug being tested in this trial, Ranirestat, inhibits the powers of
> >>aldose
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> pathways to retinopathy involves sorbitol being formed in your eye - and I
> can't think of any way of ingested sorbitol getting there!

Hi Nicky,
yes it does get there . Sorbitol is a small solulable molecule. It will enter
your blood stream if you eat it freely. It will also get in your eye from there.
Nothing to worry about. It belongs there anyway. Your body makes it. The amount
is regulated by your body. If you ingest a bit more your body will make a bit
less.

The keypoint is not to get too much of it for too long. The way to do that is
keep your blood glucose low which is much more effective than avoiding all
sorbitol . And here we all know how to do that  :)  The eyes got damaged after
10 - 20 years too much glucose in our blood. That caused the chronic high
glucose and thus sorbitol in the eye. The damage was done by too much glucose .

hth
Gys
Guys - 20 Aug 2005 18:43 GMT
The immediate problem with ingesting sorbitol is
in not absorbed in the intestine as fast.  It goes
lower where the critters love it and create
upset.   This is a problem with many things
that slow absorption of sugar like items from the
th intestine,  A messy situation.

Some diabetic drugs have a like effect.

The issue of detailed mechanism in the body is there
is a lot of assumptions.  We do see changes in the
theories over the years.

The best demonstrated i item to prevent the bad effects is to
control the blood sugars to near normal.  Today that is
control of food input.

I do have eye damage and nerve damage. I have see blurbs
but have never seen an effective treatment to offset the effects
of high blood glucose.

I read the "grabs for research money" and see time go by and
nothing.

It takes a lot of acumu;ated knowledge to get any advance,

Today we do have a way to deal with diabetes.  We need to
break our excess eating habits.  

I write this because I have ben let down by so much  of the
PR  releases.  I suffered from nerve damage.  Saw a new
miracle every year but in the end I find a way to get
my blood sugars under control was the only thing
that worked.

"Some day but not now"
                                         Guy.
GysdeJongh - 20 Aug 2005 23:09 GMT
<Other Sorbitol problems>

> The best demonstrated i item to prevent the bad effects is to
> control the blood sugars to near normal.  Today that is
> control of food input.

I second that !!

> I do have eye damage and nerve damage. I have see blurbs
> but have never seen an effective treatment to offset the effects
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> It takes a lot of acumu;ated knowledge to get any advance,

We will get there
I hope you will benefit from it to  :)
Maybe I'm too optimistic
Today

> Today we do have a way to deal with diabetes.  We need to
> break our excess eating habits.

Yes
For me it is amazing how much less
How very excessive it was
To learn from a food data base that the peanuts at the bar in the old days were
infact almost enough calories for a whole day !!

Gys
Chris J. - 21 Aug 2005 00:18 GMT
>Yes
>For me it is amazing how much less
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Gys

I read an article a few years ago that claimed that reducing calorie
consumption, even in those not overweight, in mice and rats extended
their lifespans my a large amount.
Guys - 21 Aug 2005 00:38 GMT
>>Yes
>>For me it is amazing how much less
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>consumption, even in those not overweight, in mice and rats extended
>their lifespans my a large amount.

After WW2 there was a lot of studies of starved prisoners.
A very significant  reduction in many "old age" diseases.
Cardiovascular problems were ,much less.

Korean causalities showed many of our young people
had significant  cardiovascular problems already developing.
                                    Guy .
GysdeJongh - 21 Aug 2005 13:16 GMT
> >Yes
> >For me it is amazing how much less
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> consumption, even in those not overweight, in mice and rats extended
> their lifespans my a large amount.

Hi Chris J,
yes, for creatures as divers as nematode worms to rats and also humans there is
now a lot of proof that calorie restriction expands their life span.

"calorie restriction" in Google give you 89,400 hits

"calorie restriction"    in Pubmed :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed

give you 545 hits

There is still a lot of debate about the cause of this effect.

Anecdotes :
If you are a fan of science fiction and Asimov than you know that each animal
lives an equal number of heart beats. For the elefant with a very slow heart
this mounts to 100 years and for a mouse with a very fast beating heart it is
only 5 years  :)  A bee lives 2 month , if you put her alone in a cage she lives
easily 5 years.

So...maybe it's what you eat , how much of it and what you do in your life.
Maybe we can discover a law that says that each creature only can handle a given
amount of calories in it's whole life span and than dies.That would make a lot
of things clear.
Seems reasonable , today at least  :)

hth
Gys
Chris J. - 22 Aug 2005 08:38 GMT
>> >Yes
>> >For me it is amazing how much less
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
>There is still a lot of debate about the cause of this effect.

Thanks, I'll start doing some reading. I'm intrigued by this.

>Anecdotes :
>If you are a fan of science fiction and Asimov than you know that each animal
>lives an equal number of heart beats. For the elefant with a very slow heart
>this mounts to 100 years and for a mouse with a very fast beating heart it is
>only 5 years  :)  A bee lives 2 month , if you put her alone in a cage she lives
>easily 5 years.

>So...maybe it's what you eat , how much of it and what you do in your life.
>Maybe we can discover a law that says that each creature only can handle a given
>amount of calories in it's whole life span and than dies.That would make a lot
>of things clear.
>Seems reasonable , today at least  :)

That could well be. If the calorie restriction research is proven out,
it would make sense.
Ma¢k - 19 Aug 2005 18:19 GMT
>http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3737922

and this is of interest to what people on what planet?

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Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
...Theodore Roosevelt

        (o o)  
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."

Jesus never hated anyone.

mrslang - 19 Aug 2005 19:10 GMT
> >http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3737922
>
> and this is of interest to what people on what planet?

how about all diabetics who may have or someday get neuropathy.  what
crawled up your sphincter today?

thanks for posting this weebit.  obviously some people found it
interesting and relevant.

Sally
WeeBit - 20 Aug 2005 01:49 GMT
::: http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3737922
::
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
:
: Sally

Yer welcome
Ma¢k - 22 Aug 2005 17:14 GMT
>::: http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3737922
>::
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Yer welcome

next time post an accurate subject line.

Signature

Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
...Theodore Roosevelt

        (o o)  
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."

Jesus never hated anyone.

 
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