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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / January 2004

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how low is too low?

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JCG - 29 Jan 2004 01:25 GMT
A few weeks ago, I posted a message about high numbers while on prednisone.
(I am not diabetic, but have Impaired Glucse Tolerance) Well, you were all
right! Now they are really low. I am not experiencing hypo symptoms. I feel
good. My FBG in the morning has been between 75-85 for a couple of weeks. I
haven't been over this number in a while. It's kind of funny, because for
the past year and a half, since I have been testing, my FBG has been in the
100-115 range. The rheumatologist put me on 25 mg elavil to help me sleep. I
was thinking that this was the magic bullet for sleeping and blood glucose!
I decided to stop taking it to see if this is what is making my numbers so
low. I will see the rheumatologist in a couple more weeks and the endo the
following week.
The only difference is the elavil. My diet hasn't changed nor has my
exercise. I suppose I shouldn't question this too much. I think it is a good
number. I am not worried about it, but I thought it was kind of interesting.
--Judy
Bay Area Dave - 29 Jan 2004 01:37 GMT
less than 65 or so is going to impair your judgment.  I wouldn't
recommend driving or operation machinery at that level.  Personally, I
find 75 not to be noticeable as being low, but I wouldn't feel
comfortable starting out on a walk or other activity at that level.  I
would drop below that very quickly as I'm on insulin.  YMMV

dave

> A few weeks ago, I posted a message about high numbers while on prednisone.
> (I am not diabetic, but have Impaired Glucse Tolerance) Well, you were all
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> number. I am not worried about it, but I thought it was kind of interesting.
> --Judy
bj - 29 Jan 2004 03:20 GMT
It's not unusual for me to be <80 fasting (though 80's is most common). And
on the days when I have to delay breakfast (after taking other meds), I
sometimes do chores or go for a walk. And of course there are the times I
have to go for blood tests (and I do drive).  It doesn't bother me to do so,
but I won't do anything too energetic, like running. And, fortunately, I
also don't get liver dumps at these times either.

I'm not on any regular dm meds or insulin, though I am trying out some
Prandin at dinner sometimes.
bj

> less than 65 or so is going to impair your judgment.  I wouldn't
> recommend driving or operation machinery at that level.  Personally, I
> find 75 not to be noticeable as being low, but I wouldn't feel
> comfortable starting out on a walk or other activity at that level.  I
> would drop below that very quickly as I'm on insulin.  YMMV
RK - 29 Jan 2004 02:30 GMT
elavil is a neuron blocker - when the body doesn't
see pain, it doesn't emit cortizol which is the bodies
natural pain reliever. therefore you're glucose doesn't
rise.

Signature

RK - t1
*Disclaimer: i'm not a doctor. I only share personal
experience of being a diabetic. I have no textbook
learning, only life itself.
----------------------
In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.

> A few weeks ago, I posted a message about high numbers while on prednisone.
> (I am not diabetic, but have Impaired Glucse Tolerance) Well, you were all
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> number. I am not worried about it, but I thought it was kind of interesting.
> --Judy
Frederic E Henzi - 29 Jan 2004 06:33 GMT
Hi,
You make an interesting statement here. Does it imply that BG would rise
with rheumatic pain? Or would rise due to the cortisol?

Fred Henzi

> elavil is a neuron blocker - when the body doesn't
> see pain, it doesn't emit cortizol which is the bodies
> natural pain reliever. therefore you're glucose doesn't
> rise.
RK - 29 Jan 2004 12:14 GMT
*MY* personal observation is the pain increases
bg's. I've had cortizone shots it's not raised me as
much as when my back pain is high. But again, I"m
unable to measure how much natural coritzol i'm
letting out.

Signature

RK - t1
*Disclaimer: i'm not a doctor. I only share personal
experience of being a diabetic. I have no textbook
learning, only life itself.
----------------------
In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.

> Hi,
>  You make an interesting statement here. Does it imply that BG would rise
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> > natural pain reliever. therefore you're glucose doesn't
> > rise.
Micki Webber - 29 Jan 2004 14:17 GMT
When I have a RA flare, my bg's go high, and it always higher when I'm
on pred. This may be another YMMV thing too. Don't we have
fun?!?......Mic

Always, be, and stay AWARE!
Julie Bove - 29 Jan 2004 03:38 GMT
> A few weeks ago, I posted a message about high numbers while on prednisone.
> (I am not diabetic, but have Impaired Glucse Tolerance) Well, you were all
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> exercise. I suppose I shouldn't question this too much. I think it is a good
> number. I am not worried about it, but I thought it was kind of interesting.

The number varies depending on what source you use and who the person is.
Your numbers are probably fine.  At times, my numbers can drop quite
suddenly.  So I treat for hypo <100 if I am to be active, or <80 if not
active.  Since you refer to your FBG, I assume you will be eating right
away.

Signature

Type 2
http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

oldal4865 - 29 Jan 2004 12:54 GMT
JCG wrote in message ...
>A few weeks ago, I posted a message about high numbers while on prednisone.
>(I am not diabetic, but have Impaired Glucse Tolerance) Well, you were all
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>number. I am not worried about it, but I thought it was kind of interesting.
>--Judy

   Those are numbers typical of a non-diabetic.

If you are T1,   then those numbers are a bit imprudent.   We T1 aren't
supposed to try to be that normal.

Otherwise,   they aren't "low" unless you are deliberately supplementing
your natural insulin supply somehow during the night.

If you are supplementing your natural insulin supply during the night,   you
ought to  take a look at your 3 am bG.    The big problem with a 75-85 mg/dL
FbG for an insulin "supplementer" is more often his/her 3 am bG.

Regards
  Old Al
JCG - 29 Jan 2004 15:52 GMT
As I said in my posting, I am not diabetic, but IGT. Just out  of curiosity,
how does one supplement one's natural insulin supply? I'm amost always up
during the night. I'll check tonight if I can remember! Could my numbers
have suddenly  become non-diabetic literally overnight? I know that being
IGT I have abnormal BGs, but not high enough to be considered diabetic. It
will be interesting to see what my A1C is next month when I visit the endo.
Whenever I have a cortisone injection, my numbers go up a little for a few
days. This time, I had a double whammy -- the injection plus 120 mg
prednisone daily for five days with no taper. My rheumatologist will see me
after five weeks. That's when the injection wears off.
Judy

>     Those are numbers typical of a non-diabetic.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Regards
>    Old Al
oldal4865 - 29 Jan 2004 19:43 GMT
>As I said in my posting, I am not diabetic, but IGT. Just out  of curiosity,
>how does one supplement one's natural insulin supply? I'm amost always up
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>after five weeks. That's when the injection wears off.
>Judy

  You supplement your natural insulin supply in two ways:

 1.  Use oral meds like Glyburide,  Glucovance, Gliclizide, Prandin,
Starlix etc which force your beta cells to churn out extra insulin.

Many of us define the beta stimulator pills as a form of supplementing or
augmenting your natural insulin supply because taking them results in more
insulin in your blood than your natural regulatory system would otherwise
generate.    Of course, if you are diabetic or even IGT,  your natural
regulatory system is damaged and doesn't put enough insulin into your blood
without some form of outside help/stimulation so fiddling with the pills can
improve bG control.

The Prandin and Starlix are short-lived beta stimulators so they usually
don't cause problems with low bG at night.   However,  the sulfonylureas
have a tendency to force your betas to crank out extra insulin for hours
after you really need the stimulation and folks using sulfonylureas do go
low at times.

 2.  You also can supplement your natural insulin supply by taking shots of
insulin.

One of the more common supplemental insulin regimes for an IGT   (yes,
there are very good reasons for giving IGT insulin shots)   is an injection
of an insulin called NPH insulin one or more times a day.   It is cheap,
stable,  available without prescription,  and can do a very good job.
However,  take too big a dose at bedtime and you can go low 4-6 hours later.
That's why the docs want NPH shooters to check their 3 am bG now and then.

Some doctors, like Bernstein for instance,  favor going to insulin really
quickly instead of fiddling with the beta stimulator pills.   The pills are
cheap and convenient but they are thought to encourage early "burn out" of
the diabetic's already-damaged beta cells.   That means an easy time now,
but a more severe form of diabetes later on.

They give insulin to IGT folks in hopes that it will delay the Standard Type
2 Diabetic Progression, i.e.  delay your progression from IGT to frank Type
2 diabetes.   The odds are almost 100% that an IGT will progress to Type 2
if he is IGT long enough.

Prednisone usually sends diabetic bG soaring.  If you are IGT and need
periodic prednisone,  the odds are that you will need some sort of "help" in
controlling your bG sooner or later.    Insulin injections are one option.
The insulin option is a Royal PITA but some docs feel it is the option which
maximizes protection of your self-generated insulin system.

Prednisone has a nasty reputation for somehow damaging our self-generated
insulin system.   You might want to sit down and talk with your
Rheumatologist and perhaps an endocrinologist and plan your future.
Anything you can do to avoid ending up like me  (totally defunct
self-generated insulin system) is, IMHO,  worth it.

Regards
 Old Al
Frank Roy - 31 Jan 2004 01:10 GMT
Hello oldal:
(snipped)
> >how does one supplement one's natural insulin supply?
>    You supplement your natural insulin supply in two ways:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> stable,  available without prescription,  and can do a very good job.
> However,  take too big a dose at bedtime and you can go low 4-6 hours later.

Another question:
I was looking at the curve for NPH insulin and wondered why it would not
be a good insulin for a type 2 to shot at low doses before breakfast. By
the time evening rolled around, it would be tapering off. It would not
exactly fit the three humps of the glucose under the curve that fit with
meals, but might moderate the glucose load for the 8 to 9 hours of it's
most extreme time during the 24 hours.

Frank
Loretta Eisenberg - 29 Jan 2004 17:16 GMT
Judy, to me it all depends on houw you feel.  75 -85 would normally be a
perfect number if you are not shaking, sweating or any other symptoms.  

For me if I woke with a 75 I would consider that low and have some juice
because I dont eat until at least 11 in the morning and I would be
afraid of too much of a low.  If I woke with that number and was eating
in a half hour or so , it would be great.

For me in the low sixties is too low for me at any time.  I am most
comfortable at about 70 to 100.

ymmv

Loretta

--
In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.
 
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