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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / July 2009

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Bad lab reports

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Evelyn - 19 Jun 2009 21:39 GMT
All of a sudden after doing so well for so long.

It's my own fault I know.
A1C suddenly shot up to 6.9
Doc prescribed Januvia instead of Byetta.
Weakness in my legs from Statins.... again.
He says no more Crestor for 6 months to see how I feel

Time to get serious and be really, really good.   No cheats.
Walk every day and eat right...... again

Signature

Evelyn

"Even as a mother protects with her life her only child, So with a boundless
heart let one cherish all living beings." --Sutta Nipata 1.8

Susan - 19 Jun 2009 22:06 GMT
> All of a sudden after doing so well for so long.
>
> It's my own fault I know.
> A1C suddenly shot up to 6.9
> Doc prescribed Januvia instead of Byetta.

Maybe he should do some extensive endocrine testing to see why your
diabetes doesn't respond to diabetes meds?

> Weakness in my legs from Statins.... again.

You're NEVER suposed to take a statin if it happens even once.

> He says no more Crestor for 6 months to see how I feel

Crestor has a terrible safety record.

> Time to get serious and be really, really good.   No cheats.
> Walk every day and eat right...... again

And get tested for pituitary and adrenal status?

LDL cholesterol is what life giving adrenal hormones are made from.
If you eat a lot of carbs, take adrenal suppressive meds too, you're
going to need a LOT more LDL to overcome the effects.

Not to pester you, but to keep doing what doesn't work may get you out
of the office faster but it's not going to do you any good.

When conventional DM meds don't work, you may not have conventional
diabetes.

Susan
Nicky - 20 Jun 2009 18:40 GMT
>All of a sudden after doing so well for so long.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Time to get serious and be really, really good.   No cheats.
>Walk every day and eat right...... again

And stay off the damn statins for good - they've never proven any
benefit whatsoever for women. The walking would also allow you to
regrow your vit D stocks - which are made by the action of sunlight on
the cholesterol just under your skin - you will have been artificially
lowering that ability with the Crestor. More Vit D; better immune
system; better mood; more ability to walk; more ability to watch your
carbs; better bg control. Give the Januvia a chance...

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 150ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.2%  BMI 26
Evelyn - 20 Jun 2009 19:19 GMT
>>All of a sudden after doing so well for so long.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> D&E, 150ug thyroxine
> Last A1c 5.2%  BMI 26

Thanks Nicky.   I have been taking vitamin d-3 for about a year now.   It
does improve mood!

Signature

Evelyn

"Even as a mother protects with her life her only child, So with a boundless
heart let one cherish all living beings." --Sutta Nipata 1.8

Michelle C - 20 Jun 2009 19:31 GMT
>> All of a sudden after doing so well for so long.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> And stay off the damn statins for good - they've never proven any
> benefit whatsoever for women.

I have to agree with Susan and Nicky on the statins:

From this article:

http://discovermagazine.com/2008/jul/20-wonder-drugs-that-can-kill/article_view?
b_start:int=0&-C
=

John Abramson, a clinical instructor at Harvard Medical School and
author of Overdo$ed America: The Broken Promise of American Medicine,
says he grew concerned when he learned that the authors of professional
guidelines recommending an expanded use of statins had ties to the
drugs’ manufacturers. So, Abramson, a tall, dark-haired man with owlish
glasses, decided to review the study data. What he found stunned him.
Statins could reduce heart attacks and strokes—but only in a small
fraction of the people taking the drugs. “Doctors give statins in one of
two ways,” Abramson explains. “The first way is to give the drugs to
people with elevated cholesterol as primary prevention—to prevent a
heart attack, stroke, or other serious cardiovascular event. [These are]
people who have never suffered any of those events. The other way to
give statins is as secondary prevention, after people have had one of
those events or develop diabetes.”

Despite broad recommendations in the National Cholesterol Education
Program guidelines, Abramson found that there were no studies that
showed statins were beneficial for primary prevention for women of any
age or men over 65. Yet more than three-quarters of people taking
statins take them for primary prevention—meaning that many patients
stand to gain no benefit at all. Abramson, who with a colleague
published his findings in the British medical journal The Lancet, says
that even when statins are used for men at the highest risk, “you have
to treat about 238 men for one year to prevent one heart attack.”

Another problem with statin studies, according to Abramson, is that many
do not measure clinically and critically important outcomes like heart
attacks, serious adverse events, or all-cause mortality. Instead they
measure surrogate markers—outcomes that are associated with a risk of
disease—but not a bad outcome itself. In the case of statins, the
surrogate marker most commonly used is cholesterol levels. If a drug
reduces cholesterol, it is said to be “effective.” But lowering
cholesterol doesn’t necessarily mean a drug will reduce the bad outcomes
people are worried about—such as death or heart attack.

Best regards,
Michelle C., T2

The walking would also allow you to
> regrow your vit D stocks - which are made by the action of sunlight on
> the cholesterol just under your skin - you will have been artificially
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> D&E, 150ug thyroxine
> Last A1c 5.2%  BMI 26
Peppermint Patootie - 22 Jun 2009 05:12 GMT
>  From this article:
>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> Best regards,
> Michelle C., T2

Nice summary.  Thanks for posting it.  I should print it out for my
Joslin endo who denied statins did nothing for women.  She was probably
thinking lowering cholesterol was beneficial.  Uh, no.  Not necessarily.

PP
Michelle C. - 23 Jun 2009 02:21 GMT
>>  From this article:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> PP

Hi Priscilla,

I keep that article bookmarked, because it is so useful in these
discussions.

Uh...you've got the scary endo who surrounds herself in righteous
attitude.  I wouldn't rile her up too much.  ;-)  I can see why it's
tempting though.

Michelle C., T2
Peppermint Patootie - 24 Jun 2009 18:36 GMT
> >>  From this article:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>
> Michelle C., T2

When she tells me things that are out and out untrue, I cannot hold my
tongue.  It feels like capitulating to evil.  I used to say she lies to
me, but someone pointed out that she may believe that what she's saying
is true, so I try to not accuse her of deliberately lying.

PP
Michelle C. - 24 Jun 2009 19:33 GMT
>>>>  From this article:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
>
> PP

She probably isn't lying, per se, just terribly filled with 'tude and
not willing to admit that science moves on and that things that appeared
to be true earlier have been disproved.  It's odd because some people
who go into a science tend to hold on to the first things they were
taught as if they were gospel.

I probably wouldn't be able to hold my tongue either....  ;-)

Michelle C., T2
Nicky - 24 Jun 2009 22:10 GMT
>I probably wouldn't be able to hold my tongue either....  ;-)

Me either :(  I spend a lot of time trying to work out diplomatic ways
of saying "but that's not true..." and then end up blurting it out
anyway...

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 150ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.2%  BMI 26
Peppermint Patootie - 26 Jun 2009 17:28 GMT
> >I probably wouldn't be able to hold my tongue either....  ;-)
>
> Me either :(  I spend a lot of time trying to work out diplomatic ways
> of saying "but that's not true..." and then end up blurting it out
> anyway...

Last appointment I kept saying, "We seem to be working from different
information."

PP
Michelle C. - 26 Jun 2009 19:01 GMT
>>> I probably wouldn't be able to hold my tongue either....  ;-)
>> Me either :(  I spend a lot of time trying to work out diplomatic ways
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> PP

Actually, Priscilla, that sounds quite diplomatic.

Michelle C., T2
Nicky - 27 Jun 2009 08:17 GMT
>>>> I probably wouldn't be able to hold my tongue either....  ;-)
>>> Me either :(  I spend a lot of time trying to work out diplomatic ways
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Actually, Priscilla, that sounds quite diplomatic.

Yeah! But I bet what the endo kept hearing was, "The patient has been
fed incorrect information from somewhere"...

Last time I had a major battle with the GP, I printed out a bunch of
papers for him. It didn't work - because he dismissed them, saying
that you could pick and choose studies, next time I'll take a Cochrane
review - but it did cut down the condescension level.

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 150ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.2%  BMI 26
bgl - 27 Jun 2009 10:10 GMT
> Last time I had a major battle with the GP, I printed out a bunch of
> papers for him. It didn't work - because he dismissed them, saying
> that you could pick and choose studies, next time I'll take a Cochrane
> review - but it did cut down the condescension level.

I don't know what you mean by Cochrane review -- but isn't picking &
choosing studies what we do all the time? along with evaluating how "good"
they are?
bj
Michelle C. - 27 Jun 2009 20:06 GMT
>> Last time I had a major battle with the GP, I printed out a bunch of
>> papers for him. It didn't work - because he dismissed them, saying
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> they are?
> bj

And isn't the doctor picking and choosing too?

Michelle C., T2
Nicky - 27 Jun 2009 23:15 GMT
>>> Last time I had a major battle with the GP, I printed out a bunch of
>>> papers for him. It didn't work - because he dismissed them, saying
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>
>And isn't the doctor picking and choosing too?

Well yes of course, but that doesn't count because they're a DOCTOR :P

BJ, the Cochrane institute do meta-studies - examining the evidence
from all the studies they can find with comparable data. It can show
some quite amazing results that are hidden in individual, small-scale
studies, but which show in larger data pools. Conversely, it can show
where small studies' data is out of whack with the larger pool.
http://www.cochrane.org/

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 150ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.2%  BMI 26
Susan - 27 Jun 2009 23:22 GMT
> BJ, the Cochrane institute do meta-studies - examining the evidence
> from all the studies they can find with comparable data. It can show
> some quite amazing results that are hidden in individual, small-scale
> studies, but which show in larger data pools. Conversely, it can show
> where small studies' data is out of whack with the larger pool.
> http://www.cochrane.org/

And often, due to picking and choosing or researcher bias, they're
wrong, too.  I'm pretty sure this was the case with their antibiotic
reccos for sinus infections, especially for chronic cases.

Susan
Tiger Lily - 28 Jun 2009 07:01 GMT
>>>>> I probably wouldn't be able to hold my tongue either....  ;-)
>>>> Me either :(  I spend a lot of time trying to work out diplomatic ways
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> D&E, 150ug thyroxine
> Last A1c 5.2%  BMI 26

"oh, really? that's your goal? hmmmmmm the American Association of
Clinical Endocrinologist's says "xxxxxx"

oh, interesting? that's good, can you tell me what you think of Gary
Taubes new book?

i bring a complete list of all meds i'm on (highlighting and putting any
suggested changes due to my symptoms) on to a sheet of paper, that i
take, along with a short commentary of 'how i'm doing'

this prevents me from forgetting, and it gives him a shorter appt

he's a marvellous Dr and he spends as long as 'necessary' to reply to
all of my questions................................... all my life, i
have had to 'ask questions as the Dr walks out the door' !!!!!!!!! and i
sure appreciate this treatment :)

kate
Nicky - 28 Jun 2009 08:16 GMT
>"oh, really? that's your goal? hmmmmmm the American Association of
>Clinical Endocrinologist's says "xxxxxx"

Alas, in the UK we've got the prime idiot who's the world leader in
insisting that T4 is the only drug worth treating hypothyroidism with
- and he trumps the AACE locally : (

>oh, interesting? that's good, can you tell me what you think of Gary
>Taubes new book?

A BOOK? (not a paper?) Written by a journalist? *sniff*

Managing your GP ought to be a required course when you get a chronic
disease. At least bringing up kids prepares you to handle fragile
egos...

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 150ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.2%  BMI 26
Alan S - 16 Jul 2009 05:48 GMT
>>oh, interesting? that's good, can you tell me what you think of Gary
>>Taubes new book?
>
>A BOOK? (not a paper?) Written by a journalist? *sniff*

I mention his book as one of the best collections of cites and
references to scientific papers on diet and nutrition ever collected
in one place.  There are 67 pages of Bibliography, with about 15 cites
per page.
GysdeJongh - 22 Jun 2009 08:39 GMT
> I have to agree with Susan and Nicky on the statins:
> From this article:

> http://discovermagazine.com/2008/jul/20-wonder-drugs-that-can-kill/article_view?
b_start:int=0&-C
=

Hi Michelle,
I found the original article in The Lancet.Here is an abstract :

Abramson J, Wright JM.
Are lipid-lowering guidelines evidence-based? Lancet 2007; 369:168–69.

doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(07)60084-1
Comment
J Abramson and JM Wright
Harvard Medical School, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA
Department of Anesthesiology, Pharmacology & Therapeutics and Medicine,
University of British Columbia, Vancouver, BC, Canada
Available online 18 January 2007

The last major revision of the US guidelines, in 2001,1 increased the number
of Americans for whom statins are recommended from 13 million to 36 million,
most of whom do not yet have but are estimated to be at moderately elevated
risk of developing coronary heart disease.In support of statin therapy for
the primary prevention of this disease in women and people aged over 65
years, the guidelines cite seven and nine randomised trials, respectively.
Yet not one of the studies provides such evidence.For adults aged between 30
and 80 years old who already have occlusive vascular disease, statins confer
a total and cardiovascular mortality benefit and are not controversial.The
controversy involves this question: which people without evident occlusive
vascular disease (true primary prevention) should be offered statins? With
about three-quarters of those taking statins in this category, the answer
has huge economic and health implications.In formulating recommendations for
primary prevention, why do authors of guidelines not rely on the data that
already exist from the primary prevention trials?

We have pooled the data from all eight randomised trials that compared
statins with placebo in primary prevention populations at increased risk.Our
analysis suggests that lipid-lowering statins should not be prescribed for
true primary prevention in women of any age or for men older than 69 years.
High-risk men aged 30–69 years should be advised that about 50 patients need
to be treated for 5 years to prevent one event. In our experience, many men
presented with this evidence do not choose to take a statin, especially when
informed of the potential benefits of lifestyle modification on
cardiovascular risk and overall health.8 This approach, based on the best
available evidence in the appropriate population, would lead to statins
being used by a much smaller proportion of the overall population than
recommended by any of the guidelines.

Why the disagreement? The current guidelines are based on the assumption
that cardiovascular risk is a continuum and that evidence of benefit in
people with occlusive vascular disease (secondary prevention) can be
extrapolated to primary prevention populations.This assumption, plus the
assumption that cardiovascular risk can be accurately predicted, leads to
the recommendation that a substantial proportion of the healthy population
should be placed on statin therapy.

There was a lot of comment on this article in later issues ....  :)
The subject still has a lot of controversies.I have read it all.I don't see
a clear cut message
I decided, long ago, that I will not use statins.Mainly because one of the
side effects : Muscle pain.As one of the critics also remarks : T2 patients
have to exercise to manage their condition.If you give them statins they
won't be able to exercise nough.They will have a lower lipid level and still
die sooner ... :( I completely agree with this mans analysis of the problem.

As always : Ymmv
Everybody has to decide for himself what his conclusion will be on the
(limited) available evidence ... :)

hth
Gys
Michelle C. - 23 Jun 2009 02:30 GMT
>> I have to agree with Susan and Nicky on the statins:
>> From this article:
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
> hth
> Gys

Hi Gys,

Thanks for finding the original article.  VERY interesting.  I will be
saving a copy.

Me?  Being a woman without heart disease, I cannot justify a statin.
There are other considerations besides the muscle pain too.  Due to the
statins anti-inflammatory effects, which means they damp down the immune
system, they increase the risk of cancer.  Then there are the anecdotal
stories about associations between statins and memory impairment.

Yes, it is a YMMV thing, but it's disheartening that most people do not
have all the facts.

Best regards,
Michelle C., T2
Julie Bove - 23 Jun 2009 02:49 GMT
>>> I have to agree with Susan and Nicky on the statins:
>>> From this article:
[quoted text clipped - 84 lines]
> Yes, it is a YMMV thing, but it's disheartening that most people do not
> have all the facts.

Memory impairment?  I wonder if that's why...that's why...  Uh...  What was
I saying?
Michelle C. - 23 Jun 2009 20:16 GMT
>> Hi Gys,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Memory impairment?  I wonder if that's why...that's why...  Uh...  What was
> I saying?

LOL!  :-)

Michelle C., T2
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 22 Jun 2009 10:18 GMT
> All of a sudden after doing so well for so long.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Time to get serious and be really, really good.   No cheats.
> Walk every day and eat right...... again

Would suggest you ask your doctor to supervise your eating only the
amount that you need (32 ounces) in order to lose the VAT thereby cure
the insulin resistance (IR/MetS) and possibly also receive a cure for
your type-2 diabetes:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?

Be hungrier, which is truly healthier for mind, body, and soul:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/991d4e30704307e7?

Marana tha

Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,

Andrew <><
--
Author of WDJW:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_does_Jesus_want%3F

"... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor
12:3)
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/035c93540862751c?

What are the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/980b41e6999de315?

Only the truth can cure the "hunger is starvation" delusion:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/74281ab7d7ce78de?
 
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