Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / July 2009
Bad lab reports
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Evelyn - 19 Jun 2009 21:39 GMT All of a sudden after doing so well for so long.
It's my own fault I know. A1C suddenly shot up to 6.9 Doc prescribed Januvia instead of Byetta. Weakness in my legs from Statins.... again. He says no more Crestor for 6 months to see how I feel
Time to get serious and be really, really good. No cheats. Walk every day and eat right...... again
 Signature Evelyn
"Even as a mother protects with her life her only child, So with a boundless heart let one cherish all living beings." --Sutta Nipata 1.8
Susan - 19 Jun 2009 22:06 GMT > All of a sudden after doing so well for so long. > > It's my own fault I know. > A1C suddenly shot up to 6.9 > Doc prescribed Januvia instead of Byetta. Maybe he should do some extensive endocrine testing to see why your diabetes doesn't respond to diabetes meds?
> Weakness in my legs from Statins.... again. You're NEVER suposed to take a statin if it happens even once.
> He says no more Crestor for 6 months to see how I feel Crestor has a terrible safety record.
> Time to get serious and be really, really good. No cheats. > Walk every day and eat right...... again And get tested for pituitary and adrenal status?
LDL cholesterol is what life giving adrenal hormones are made from. If you eat a lot of carbs, take adrenal suppressive meds too, you're going to need a LOT more LDL to overcome the effects.
Not to pester you, but to keep doing what doesn't work may get you out of the office faster but it's not going to do you any good.
When conventional DM meds don't work, you may not have conventional diabetes.
Susan
Nicky - 20 Jun 2009 18:40 GMT >All of a sudden after doing so well for so long. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Time to get serious and be really, really good. No cheats. >Walk every day and eat right...... again And stay off the damn statins for good - they've never proven any benefit whatsoever for women. The walking would also allow you to regrow your vit D stocks - which are made by the action of sunlight on the cholesterol just under your skin - you will have been artificially lowering that ability with the Crestor. More Vit D; better immune system; better mood; more ability to walk; more ability to watch your carbs; better bg control. Give the Januvia a chance...
Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 150ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26
Evelyn - 20 Jun 2009 19:19 GMT >>All of a sudden after doing so well for so long. >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > D&E, 150ug thyroxine > Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26 Thanks Nicky. I have been taking vitamin d-3 for about a year now. It does improve mood!
 Signature Evelyn
"Even as a mother protects with her life her only child, So with a boundless heart let one cherish all living beings." --Sutta Nipata 1.8
Michelle C - 20 Jun 2009 19:31 GMT >> All of a sudden after doing so well for so long. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > And stay off the damn statins for good - they've never proven any > benefit whatsoever for women. I have to agree with Susan and Nicky on the statins:
From this article:
http://discovermagazine.com/2008/jul/20-wonder-drugs-that-can-kill/article_view? b_start:int=0&-C=
John Abramson, a clinical instructor at Harvard Medical School and author of Overdo$ed America: The Broken Promise of American Medicine, says he grew concerned when he learned that the authors of professional guidelines recommending an expanded use of statins had ties to the drugs’ manufacturers. So, Abramson, a tall, dark-haired man with owlish glasses, decided to review the study data. What he found stunned him. Statins could reduce heart attacks and strokes—but only in a small fraction of the people taking the drugs. “Doctors give statins in one of two ways,” Abramson explains. “The first way is to give the drugs to people with elevated cholesterol as primary prevention—to prevent a heart attack, stroke, or other serious cardiovascular event. [These are] people who have never suffered any of those events. The other way to give statins is as secondary prevention, after people have had one of those events or develop diabetes.”
Despite broad recommendations in the National Cholesterol Education Program guidelines, Abramson found that there were no studies that showed statins were beneficial for primary prevention for women of any age or men over 65. Yet more than three-quarters of people taking statins take them for primary prevention—meaning that many patients stand to gain no benefit at all. Abramson, who with a colleague published his findings in the British medical journal The Lancet, says that even when statins are used for men at the highest risk, “you have to treat about 238 men for one year to prevent one heart attack.”
Another problem with statin studies, according to Abramson, is that many do not measure clinically and critically important outcomes like heart attacks, serious adverse events, or all-cause mortality. Instead they measure surrogate markers—outcomes that are associated with a risk of disease—but not a bad outcome itself. In the case of statins, the surrogate marker most commonly used is cholesterol levels. If a drug reduces cholesterol, it is said to be “effective.” But lowering cholesterol doesn’t necessarily mean a drug will reduce the bad outcomes people are worried about—such as death or heart attack.
Best regards, Michelle C., T2
The walking would also allow you to
> regrow your vit D stocks - which are made by the action of sunlight on > the cholesterol just under your skin - you will have been artificially [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > D&E, 150ug thyroxine > Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26 Peppermint Patootie - 22 Jun 2009 05:12 GMT > From this article: > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > Best regards, > Michelle C., T2 Nice summary. Thanks for posting it. I should print it out for my Joslin endo who denied statins did nothing for women. She was probably thinking lowering cholesterol was beneficial. Uh, no. Not necessarily.
PP
Michelle C. - 23 Jun 2009 02:21 GMT >> From this article: >> [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > PP Hi Priscilla,
I keep that article bookmarked, because it is so useful in these discussions.
Uh...you've got the scary endo who surrounds herself in righteous attitude. I wouldn't rile her up too much. ;-) I can see why it's tempting though.
Michelle C., T2
Peppermint Patootie - 24 Jun 2009 18:36 GMT > >> From this article: > >> [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Michelle C., T2 When she tells me things that are out and out untrue, I cannot hold my tongue. It feels like capitulating to evil. I used to say she lies to me, but someone pointed out that she may believe that what she's saying is true, so I try to not accuse her of deliberately lying.
PP
Michelle C. - 24 Jun 2009 19:33 GMT >>>> From this article: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > PP She probably isn't lying, per se, just terribly filled with 'tude and not willing to admit that science moves on and that things that appeared to be true earlier have been disproved. It's odd because some people who go into a science tend to hold on to the first things they were taught as if they were gospel.
I probably wouldn't be able to hold my tongue either.... ;-)
Michelle C., T2
Nicky - 24 Jun 2009 22:10 GMT >I probably wouldn't be able to hold my tongue either.... ;-) Me either :( I spend a lot of time trying to work out diplomatic ways of saying "but that's not true..." and then end up blurting it out anyway...
Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 150ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26
Peppermint Patootie - 26 Jun 2009 17:28 GMT > >I probably wouldn't be able to hold my tongue either.... ;-) > > Me either :( I spend a lot of time trying to work out diplomatic ways > of saying "but that's not true..." and then end up blurting it out > anyway... Last appointment I kept saying, "We seem to be working from different information."
PP
Michelle C. - 26 Jun 2009 19:01 GMT >>> I probably wouldn't be able to hold my tongue either.... ;-) >> Me either :( I spend a lot of time trying to work out diplomatic ways [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > PP Actually, Priscilla, that sounds quite diplomatic.
Michelle C., T2
Nicky - 27 Jun 2009 08:17 GMT >>>> I probably wouldn't be able to hold my tongue either.... ;-) >>> Me either :( I spend a lot of time trying to work out diplomatic ways [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Actually, Priscilla, that sounds quite diplomatic. Yeah! But I bet what the endo kept hearing was, "The patient has been fed incorrect information from somewhere"...
Last time I had a major battle with the GP, I printed out a bunch of papers for him. It didn't work - because he dismissed them, saying that you could pick and choose studies, next time I'll take a Cochrane review - but it did cut down the condescension level.
Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 150ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26
bgl - 27 Jun 2009 10:10 GMT > Last time I had a major battle with the GP, I printed out a bunch of > papers for him. It didn't work - because he dismissed them, saying > that you could pick and choose studies, next time I'll take a Cochrane > review - but it did cut down the condescension level. I don't know what you mean by Cochrane review -- but isn't picking & choosing studies what we do all the time? along with evaluating how "good" they are? bj
Michelle C. - 27 Jun 2009 20:06 GMT >> Last time I had a major battle with the GP, I printed out a bunch of >> papers for him. It didn't work - because he dismissed them, saying [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > they are? > bj And isn't the doctor picking and choosing too?
Michelle C., T2
Nicky - 27 Jun 2009 23:15 GMT >>> Last time I had a major battle with the GP, I printed out a bunch of >>> papers for him. It didn't work - because he dismissed them, saying [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >And isn't the doctor picking and choosing too? Well yes of course, but that doesn't count because they're a DOCTOR :P
BJ, the Cochrane institute do meta-studies - examining the evidence from all the studies they can find with comparable data. It can show some quite amazing results that are hidden in individual, small-scale studies, but which show in larger data pools. Conversely, it can show where small studies' data is out of whack with the larger pool. http://www.cochrane.org/
Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 150ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26
Susan - 27 Jun 2009 23:22 GMT > BJ, the Cochrane institute do meta-studies - examining the evidence > from all the studies they can find with comparable data. It can show > some quite amazing results that are hidden in individual, small-scale > studies, but which show in larger data pools. Conversely, it can show > where small studies' data is out of whack with the larger pool. > http://www.cochrane.org/ And often, due to picking and choosing or researcher bias, they're wrong, too. I'm pretty sure this was the case with their antibiotic reccos for sinus infections, especially for chronic cases.
Susan
Tiger Lily - 28 Jun 2009 07:01 GMT >>>>> I probably wouldn't be able to hold my tongue either.... ;-) >>>> Me either :( I spend a lot of time trying to work out diplomatic ways [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > D&E, 150ug thyroxine > Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26 "oh, really? that's your goal? hmmmmmm the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologist's says "xxxxxx"
oh, interesting? that's good, can you tell me what you think of Gary Taubes new book?
i bring a complete list of all meds i'm on (highlighting and putting any suggested changes due to my symptoms) on to a sheet of paper, that i take, along with a short commentary of 'how i'm doing'
this prevents me from forgetting, and it gives him a shorter appt
he's a marvellous Dr and he spends as long as 'necessary' to reply to all of my questions................................... all my life, i have had to 'ask questions as the Dr walks out the door' !!!!!!!!! and i sure appreciate this treatment :)
kate
Nicky - 28 Jun 2009 08:16 GMT >"oh, really? that's your goal? hmmmmmm the American Association of >Clinical Endocrinologist's says "xxxxxx" Alas, in the UK we've got the prime idiot who's the world leader in insisting that T4 is the only drug worth treating hypothyroidism with - and he trumps the AACE locally : (
>oh, interesting? that's good, can you tell me what you think of Gary >Taubes new book? A BOOK? (not a paper?) Written by a journalist? *sniff*
Managing your GP ought to be a required course when you get a chronic disease. At least bringing up kids prepares you to handle fragile egos...
Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 150ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26
Alan S - 16 Jul 2009 05:48 GMT >>oh, interesting? that's good, can you tell me what you think of Gary >>Taubes new book? > >A BOOK? (not a paper?) Written by a journalist? *sniff* I mention his book as one of the best collections of cites and references to scientific papers on diet and nutrition ever collected in one place. There are 67 pages of Bibliography, with about 15 cites per page.
GysdeJongh - 22 Jun 2009 08:39 GMT > I have to agree with Susan and Nicky on the statins: > From this article:
> http://discovermagazine.com/2008/jul/20-wonder-drugs-that-can-kill/article_view? b_start:int=0&-C= Hi Michelle, I found the original article in The Lancet.Here is an abstract :
Abramson J, Wright JM. Are lipid-lowering guidelines evidence-based? Lancet 2007; 369:168–69.
doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(07)60084-1 Comment J Abramson and JM Wright Harvard Medical School, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA Department of Anesthesiology, Pharmacology & Therapeutics and Medicine, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, BC, Canada Available online 18 January 2007
The last major revision of the US guidelines, in 2001,1 increased the number of Americans for whom statins are recommended from 13 million to 36 million, most of whom do not yet have but are estimated to be at moderately elevated risk of developing coronary heart disease.In support of statin therapy for the primary prevention of this disease in women and people aged over 65 years, the guidelines cite seven and nine randomised trials, respectively. Yet not one of the studies provides such evidence.For adults aged between 30 and 80 years old who already have occlusive vascular disease, statins confer a total and cardiovascular mortality benefit and are not controversial.The controversy involves this question: which people without evident occlusive vascular disease (true primary prevention) should be offered statins? With about three-quarters of those taking statins in this category, the answer has huge economic and health implications.In formulating recommendations for primary prevention, why do authors of guidelines not rely on the data that already exist from the primary prevention trials?
We have pooled the data from all eight randomised trials that compared statins with placebo in primary prevention populations at increased risk.Our analysis suggests that lipid-lowering statins should not be prescribed for true primary prevention in women of any age or for men older than 69 years. High-risk men aged 30–69 years should be advised that about 50 patients need to be treated for 5 years to prevent one event. In our experience, many men presented with this evidence do not choose to take a statin, especially when informed of the potential benefits of lifestyle modification on cardiovascular risk and overall health.8 This approach, based on the best available evidence in the appropriate population, would lead to statins being used by a much smaller proportion of the overall population than recommended by any of the guidelines.
Why the disagreement? The current guidelines are based on the assumption that cardiovascular risk is a continuum and that evidence of benefit in people with occlusive vascular disease (secondary prevention) can be extrapolated to primary prevention populations.This assumption, plus the assumption that cardiovascular risk can be accurately predicted, leads to the recommendation that a substantial proportion of the healthy population should be placed on statin therapy.
There was a lot of comment on this article in later issues .... :) The subject still has a lot of controversies.I have read it all.I don't see a clear cut message I decided, long ago, that I will not use statins.Mainly because one of the side effects : Muscle pain.As one of the critics also remarks : T2 patients have to exercise to manage their condition.If you give them statins they won't be able to exercise nough.They will have a lower lipid level and still die sooner ... :( I completely agree with this mans analysis of the problem.
As always : Ymmv Everybody has to decide for himself what his conclusion will be on the (limited) available evidence ... :)
hth Gys
Michelle C. - 23 Jun 2009 02:30 GMT >> I have to agree with Susan and Nicky on the statins: >> From this article: [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > hth > Gys Hi Gys,
Thanks for finding the original article. VERY interesting. I will be saving a copy.
Me? Being a woman without heart disease, I cannot justify a statin. There are other considerations besides the muscle pain too. Due to the statins anti-inflammatory effects, which means they damp down the immune system, they increase the risk of cancer. Then there are the anecdotal stories about associations between statins and memory impairment.
Yes, it is a YMMV thing, but it's disheartening that most people do not have all the facts.
Best regards, Michelle C., T2
Julie Bove - 23 Jun 2009 02:49 GMT >>> I have to agree with Susan and Nicky on the statins: >>> From this article: [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > Yes, it is a YMMV thing, but it's disheartening that most people do not > have all the facts. Memory impairment? I wonder if that's why...that's why... Uh... What was I saying?
Michelle C. - 23 Jun 2009 20:16 GMT >> Hi Gys, >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Memory impairment? I wonder if that's why...that's why... Uh... What was > I saying? LOL! :-)
Michelle C., T2
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 22 Jun 2009 10:18 GMT > All of a sudden after doing so well for so long. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Time to get serious and be really, really good. No cheats. > Walk every day and eat right...... again Would suggest you ask your doctor to supervise your eating only the amount that you need (32 ounces) in order to lose the VAT thereby cure the insulin resistance (IR/MetS) and possibly also receive a cure for your type-2 diabetes:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Be hungrier, which is truly healthier for mind, body, and soul:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/991d4e30704307e7?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <>< -- Author of WDJW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_does_Jesus_want%3F
"... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor 12:3) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/035c93540862751c?
What are the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven? http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/980b41e6999de315?
Only the truth can cure the "hunger is starvation" delusion: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/74281ab7d7ce78de?
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