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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / July 2009Re: post prandial indicator 1,5 anhydroglucitol
Peppermint Patootie wrote: > In article <h165l8$ffl$1@news.eternal-september.org>, > Michelle C <bookbug_35@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Yes, my father has ADD (he's 64 now). Looking back, we know he had ADD as child--back when no one had a clue about it and just thought he was incorrigible. Also highly intelligent. He remembers his dad shouting at him, "Your IQ is higher than mine. How come you can't do your school work?" Pretty much describes the whole issue in a nutshell. The failure of his family to understand (not that they had any resources for understanding ADD back in the 50's) shot the hell out of his self-esteem, which added to the problem. > Wow. This is so exactly my experience. I was born in 1953. Starting in elementary school my mother would repeatedly back me into a corner. "What do you do these things?" she'd rage, and I had no answer. So they concluded I was lazy, irresponsible, obstinate and, yes, incorrigible, and I had nowhere to go but end up agreeing with them. It's a horrible feeling, to think you have no recourse but to say it's your fault you did those things you had no intention of doing. Wears out any self-esteem you've got. Shame city. Yep, you've described it exactly. Surprisingly, since my grandparents have come to live nearby (in a house behind ours), I've realized that my grandpa--my dad's dad--has ADD too. He has trouble following conversations, often goes off on tangents, and frequently fails to acknowledge what was just said, because he's thinking his own thoughts. Looking back over the years, I can see that he's always been this way, but seeing him nearly everyday has brought this home to me. Unlike my dad who had such trouble in school, my grandpa did okay though. However, his school experience occurred in a one room school house with 13 kids ranging in age from 1st grade to 8th. Much less stressful environment with individualized attention. My dad's brother shows some symptoms too. >> He was diagnosed when he was in his 40's, but didn't find adequate medication until his early 50's. He takes the Parkinson's med, seligiline for it. > I'm on Adderall, which helps a lot, but I may need to fine tune it sometime. I'm starting to have problems at work again. Although the seligiline is a long-acting med--he takes a tiny dose every 3 days--sometimes, he finds taking a break from it helps him "reset". Of course, the "reset" period has to occur when there isn't much going on that requires his attention. Michelle C. > PP > Although the seligiline is a long-acting med--he takes a tiny dose every > 3 days--sometimes, he finds taking a break from it helps him "reset". > Of course, the "reset" period has to occur when there isn't much going > on that requires his attention. On weekends I often either take only 1 Adderall a day instead of 2 or just skip it. My psydoc says that's why I haven't built up a tolerance. I don't think I have. I just need something else maybe. PP >> Although the seligiline is a long-acting med--he takes a tiny dose every >> 3 days--sometimes, he finds taking a break from it helps him "reset". [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > PP I hope you're able to find something that works better for you, Priscilla. Best regards, Michelle C. > >> Although the seligiline is a long-acting med--he takes a tiny dose every > >> 3 days--sometimes, he finds taking a break from it helps him "reset". [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I hope you're able to find something that works better for you, Priscilla. Thanks. I have the typical ADD ability to focus when there's novelty involved, so I have that way of assisting myself, too. A cubicle move at work helped a LOT, giving me changes in my physical environment to jangle my novelty detector. Management's becoming somewhat more rigid in terms of time reporting is also helping me by forcing me to keep more lists and notes. So, it's not all about meds, for me at least. PP >>>> Although the seligiline is a long-acting med--he takes a tiny dose every >>>> 3 days--sometimes, he finds taking a break from it helps him "reset". [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > PP I agree, there are lot of other coping mechanisms that can help. For my dad, he's learned to rely on lists and to do only one thing at a time. Since he's retired, he has the luxury of operating that way. :-) Best regards, Michelle C., T2 >Thanks. I have the typical ADD ability to focus when there's novelty >involved, so I have that way of assisting myself, too. Hi PP, Help me understand this more fully please. Does novelty distract you or assist you? I'd like to understand ADD better. Thanks, Quentin. > A cubicle move >at work helped a LOT, giving me changes in my physical environment to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >PP  SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin >> Thanks. I have the typical ADD ability to focus when there's novelty >> involved, so I have that way of assisting myself, too. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks, > Quentin. Hi Quentin, I can't answer for PP, however in my observation of my dad, it's easy to distract him from mundane things like paying bills example. A stray thought, (or an interruption) causes him to lose his place and he has to backtrack to remember where he was in the process. (He has a routine that must be done in order.) However if the thing he's focused on is novel, then stray thoughts are much less likely. In fact, sometimes what I call hyperfocus comes into play. He can think about a problem/puzzle/interesting idea for hours. Best regards, Michelle C., T2 much snipped > Hi Quentin, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Best regards, > Michelle C., T2 exactly, Michelle, this happens with teenlet guess what the teachers say? "well, obviously, if it suits him he CAN pay attention" :( sigh ps, this kid took 2 books on HTML programming out at the library for over a month while he was 'working on a design for a game' he was 12 he would work on that for hours! but, he has his computer to look at, and NO school bells ringing, etc pps. he designed a section of the game that was added to the original game :) kate >much snipped >> Hi Quentin, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >:( >sigh Hi Kate, I can imagine the frustration and despair, not only for you but also for the teachers who are unlikely to understand the phenomenon. >ps, this kid took 2 books on HTML programming out at the library for >over a month while he was 'working on a design for a game' [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >pps. he designed a section of the game that was added to the original >game :) That is incredible. >kate Glad he has a caring and understanding mother. SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin >> much snipped >>> Hi Quentin, [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Glad he has a caring and understanding mother. well, Quentin, i'm frustrated for teenlet's sake, cause he's a very bright child, and in all likelihood (if we can keep him on track) he will go to a tech school, and most likely learn a trade he should be working with computers and math and science, and perhaps have some 'building, hands on' in that set of talents he has........... engineering perhaps (gotta keep the family trad working!) but, he doesn't have the necessary English skills (speed, short term memory and ability to communicate his thoughts to others)to qualify for a University program as long as he is happy, what more can i ask for............ perhaps if i was rich and could afford a one on one tutor for all of his school work, he would do better.......... that isn't the case, so we won't even go there thanks for the 'cheer me up' comment :) kate >>> much snipped >>>> Hi Quentin, [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >have some 'building, hands on' in that set of talents he has........... >engineering perhaps (gotta keep the family trad working!) It is a pity you can't come to NZ where the tertiary institutes are willing to accept students so long as they pay their fees. >but, he doesn't have the necessary English skills (speed, short term >memory and ability to communicate his thoughts to others)to qualify for >a University program This is where the distinction between a university and a tertiary program is important. With tertiary programs here it wouldn't matter. >as long as he is happy, what more can i ask for............ perhaps if i >was rich and could afford a one on one tutor for all of his school work, >he would do better.......... that isn't the case, so we won't even go there Understood. Some very able students do need one to one tutoring. >thanks for the 'cheer me up' comment :) I believe you deserve it. He's lucky to have you. >kate SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin > much snipped >> Hi Quentin, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> Best regards, >> Michelle C., T2 > exactly, Michelle, this happens with teenlet > guess what the teachers say? > "well, obviously, if it suits him he CAN pay attention" > :( > sigh > ps, this kid took 2 books on HTML programming out at the library for > over a month while he was 'working on a design for a game' > he was 12 > he would work on that for hours! > but, he has his computer to look at, and NO school bells ringing, etc > pps. he designed a section of the game that was added to the original > game :) When I was 14 I spent weeks designing a machine for playing NIM based on telephone company dialling circular switching relays, about 14 of them. I then managed to acquire about 7 of them from local electronic scrap merchants, but having solved the problem already, I lost interest and never made the machine. At school I used to read all the new textbooks of the year with great interest in a few weeks. Then for the rest of the year I was terribly bored. I was always being punished for not doing my homework. The problem was it was boring. I used to set myself more difficult homework problems for fun. I liked difficult problems that took at least hours to solve, preferably days. Many years later after discovering computers I wrote a computer program based on the same principles as my telephone relay machine which worked very well. SignatureChris Malcolm >When I was 14 I spent weeks designing a machine for playing NIM based >on telephone company dialling circular switching relays, about 14 of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >program based on the same principles as my telephone relay machine >which worked very well. Hi Chris, Each of us forms opinions about the abilities of one another. I have always been impressed with you literary skills but was unaware of your skills in designing. Shows how little we know about the hidden talents of one another. kind regards, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin > ps, this kid took 2 books on HTML programming out at the library for > over a month while he was 'working on a design for a game' [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > pps. he designed a section of the game that was added to the original > game :) My first fifteen or more years in the industry I could easily go into hyperfocus and crank out amazing amounts of solid code with few bugs. In those days the extraordinary amount of horsepower in my brain was accommodating the lack of executive control from the prefrontal cortex. Then hormonal changes of middle age started to erode my ability to accommodate, and I started losing the ability to hyperfocus and found my normal focus dwindling. I was diagnosed 3 years ago and have been on the meds about as long. I don't notice now any changes when I take them, but I'm rather at sea when I don't. My psychiatrist is glad I don't take them all the time, since that prevents my building a tolerance, but on some weekends I really need to re-discipline myself to take them so I can get stuff done at home. PP >> ps, this kid took 2 books on HTML programming out at the library for >> over a month while he was 'working on a design for a game' [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > PP i've often wondered if my psych Rx'd the Dexedrine XR for ADD rather than the reason's he stated :) mind you, if that's the case, they don't work for me, it would have to be something else kate > much snipped >> Hi Quentin, [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > kate Hi Kate, Yes, it seems that many people do not understand that the distractability is proportional to the number of distractions. :-) (Classroom setting with many children versus working alone or one-on-one.) Best regards, Michelle C., T2 >>> Thanks. I have the typical ADD ability to focus when there's novelty >>> involved, so I have that way of assisting myself, too. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >Best regards, >Michelle C., T2 Thanks Michelle, Fascinating. It seems almost normal behaviour but extreme in its execution. It is easy to imagine being distracted from something boring like doing accounting but being absorbed in some fascinating new idea. Once again thank you, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin > Thanks Michelle, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Once again thank you, well, there is bookkeeping (which can be all the bits of papers, or sorted down to Accounts Payable, Accounts Receivable, etc) and bookkeeping literally drove me to tears in under 1 year......... when i went to management and BEGGED them for a job with more challenge to it, cause i would have to leave if i had to face 'that job one more day' and then i found Accounting :) systems design, both for computer programs and for 'accounting information' provided to all the levels of 'consolidation' of multiple companies and other interesting accounting functions as with all jobs, there is SOME grunt work (as the senior, i would help my friends 'catch up' and get back on track, but i could handle doing that ONCE A MONTH, not every day! :) ) and..............if they hadn't invented the computer to do the drudgery work, i certainly would not be in accounting today LOL kate >>>> Thanks. I have the typical ADD ability to focus when there's novelty >>>> involved, so I have that way of assisting myself, too. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Once again thank you, Hi Quentin, I agree. We call all relate to this type of behavior in some ways. It's the extremeness of it that is the issue. I read an interesting article once that hypothesized that a person with ADD who lived a more primitive tribal existence would be a great benefit to the tribe. The fact that people with ADD are highly distractable would make them the first ones to be alert to danger. It might also carry over to the hunt where s/he might be the first to detect the presence of prey. Best regards, Michelle C., T2 >>>>> Thanks. I have the typical ADD ability to focus when there's novelty >>>>> involved, so I have that way of assisting myself, too. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > make them the first ones to be alert to danger. It might also carry over > to the hunt where s/he might be the first to detect the presence of prey. I don't know about that. I know two people with ADHD. Now maybe the "H" has something to do with this. They are both highly aware of any potential dangers but totally unaware of when real danger happens. They also miss pretty much all of the little details. >>>>>> Thanks. I have the typical ADD ability to focus when there's novelty >>>>>> involved, so I have that way of assisting myself, too. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > dangers but totally unaware of when real danger happens. They also miss > pretty much all of the little details. Hi Julie, I think you are right about the difference between ADD and ADHD. From what I've been reading, one of the differences is that those with ADD often suffer a high degree of anxiety, while those with ADHD tend to be fearless. That would cause a significant difference in reaction and behavior. There were other differences too, but I didn't try to remember them. Best regards, Michelle C., T2 >>>>>> Thanks. I have the typical ADD ability to focus when there's novelty >>>>>> involved, so I have that way of assisting myself, too. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >> make them the first ones to be alert to danger. It might also carry over >> to the hunt where s/he might be the first to detect the presence of prey. > I don't know about that. I know two people with ADHD. Now maybe the "H" > has something to do with this. They are both highly aware of any potential > dangers but totally unaware of when real danger happens. They also miss > pretty much all of the little details. Some ADDults are extremely good in serious life threatening emergencies, not freaking out, being highly aware, focused, rational, decisive. Some of them like what such emergencies do to their brains enough that they seek them out. You find them enjoying dangerous sports etc.. SignatureChris Malcolm > Some ADDults are extremely good in serious life threatening > emergencies, not freaking out, being highly aware, focused, rational, > decisive. Some of them like what such emergencies do to their brains > enough that they seek them out. You find them enjoying dangerous > sports etc.. Both of the ones I know are very good at reacting. They will react instantly and almost always not in the appropriate fashion. One example is a basement that flooded. The carpeting was brand new. So what did the homeowner do? Cut the carpet up with scissors. Why? You tell me. Both of them freak and become hysterical in medical emergencies. So much so that when in the ER, the medical professionals wind up paying attention to *them* and not the patient! When I had a hypo once, the one insisted on trying to force me to eat cheese (this is before I knew of my allergies) and put a cold cloth on my head instead of getting the candy for me that I told him I needed. Neither one of them can follow medical advice they've been given for their own health problems because they just can't manage to listen to all that the Dr. says. They will hear a small amount...like three words and then their brain seems to fill in the rest of the details, incorrectly. > > Some ADDults are extremely good in serious life threatening > > emergencies, not freaking out, being highly aware, focused, rational, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Dr. says. They will hear a small amount...like three words and then their > brain seems to fill in the rest of the details, incorrectly. People like that make me want to start slapping them. That is definitely not like the ADD I have. In an emergency, the fact that it's an emergency provides the novelty I need to focus on what's going on and figuring out what's needed. I am a ROCK in a crisis, keeping everything going, making sure people have what they need, being in charge until the emergency is over. Then I go curl up somewhere and let the chemicals flow through me and get processed out, and I fuzz out. PP >> > Some ADDults are extremely good in serious life threatening >> > emergencies, not freaking out, being highly aware, focused, rational, [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > emergency is over. Then I go curl up somewhere and let the chemicals > flow through me and get processed out, and I fuzz out. That's good then! In both cases, they excel or excelled (one is retired) at their jobs. From what I have been told, this is one thing where they can really focus their attention. But they can't seem to focus on anything else. Judging on how I see them act elsewhere, I fail to see how they can do so well at work, but apparently they do! >> > Some ADDults are extremely good in serious life threatening >> > emergencies, not freaking out, being highly aware, focused, rational, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> Dr. says. They will hear a small amount...like three words and then their >> brain seems to fill in the rest of the details, incorrectly. > People like that make me want to start slapping them. That is > definitely not like the ADD I have. In an emergency, the fact that it's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > emergency is over. Then I go curl up somewhere and let the chemicals > flow through me and get processed out, and I fuzz out. It sounds to me as though Julie is talking about ADD which is also associated with some impairment of brain function. Minor brain damage such as can result from a difficult birth or nutritional deficits in early infancy often produces ADD-like symptoms in combination with other problems. It's also the case that minor frontal lobe physical damage from an accident, infection, or poisoning, will produce ADD-like symptoms. But since, like diabetes, we're still ignorant enough that we have to diagnose ADD on the basis of symptomatology rather than underlying etiology, all these different things count as ADD simply because they behave like ADD. But it is possible to have ADD in an otherwise high quality brain. As have I and Peppermint P :-) It's the observation of our kind of special talents in seriously dangerous emergencies that has led some to hypothesise that it's not so much a brain malfunction as a brain which has been evolutionarily tuned for high performance in a rather different lifestyle than we enjoy today. That's the idea behind Thom Hartman's hunter-farmer hypothesis about the origins of ADD, as explained in this Wikipedia article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_vs._farmer_theory SignatureChris Malcolm >>> > Some ADDults are extremely good in serious life threatening >>> > emergencies, not freaking out, being highly aware, focused, rational, [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_vs._farmer_theory It's also possible that the two people of which I speak have other impairments as well. I know one has OCD and strongly suspect the other one does as well. My daughter was thought to have ADD but it turned out to be food allergies. Within 2 weeks of changing her diet, she was suddenly able to concentrate in school and to pay attention. > People like that make me want to start slapping them. That is > definitely not like the ADD I have. In an emergency, the fact that it's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > emergency is over. Then I go curl up somewhere and let the chemicals > flow through me and get processed out, and I fuzz out. Me, too, or I was til adrenally insufficient, which fogs my brain instantly under stress. All my life, in an emergency, it was as if everything slowed down, I slowed myself down and prioritized and delegated and managed calmly, exactly as you say. Then let the adrenaline and tension hit me after everything was handled. Susan > > I don't know about that. I know two people with ADHD. Now maybe the "H" > > has something to do with this. They are both highly aware of any potential [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > enough that they seek them out. You find them enjoying dangerous > sports etc.. I like carrying the help phone for the University website sometimes because it wakes me up. I can focus on those small immediate problems, while if I go back to working on a project I'm on, my mind starts to slide away. PP > Some ADDults are extremely good in serious life threatening > emergencies, not freaking out, being highly aware, focused, rational, > decisive. That's me. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That's me. Me, too, as long as the crisis wasn't caused by something I did. If it is, or if people think it is, I'm an anxious mess. If there's no-one pointing at me, I'm a key person in solving the problem. Priscilla >Some ADDults are extremely good in serious life threatening >emergencies, not freaking out, being highly aware, focused, rational, >decisive. Some of them like what such emergencies do to their brains >enough that they seek them out. You find them enjoying dangerous >sports etc.. Hi Chris, That is interesting. I've noticed some people love being ambulance workers. There is something about the crisis situation that appeals to them. Never connected it with ADD. kind regards, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin >Hi Quentin, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Best regards, >Michelle C., T2 Hi Michelle, I've read similar articles. They assume ADD has been around for ever. Maybe it has. Maybe it is of modern occurrence. Hard to tell which hypothesis to support. Kind regards, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin >> Hi Quentin, >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Kind regards, I agree, Quentin. Of course, it could always be both. ;-) Actually, I've been wondering if children's brains are being developed differently with our high-paced societies and all the technology that supports it. Best regards, Michelle C., T2 >> Hi Michelle, >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Best regards, >Michelle C., T2 What an exciting thought Michelle, It is thought that jugglers were accused of magic in the past because people weren't used to the fast pace. The same thing occurs with people who have lived in forests who are driven in cars. They are frightened by the speed. Even with kids today their thumbs are dominant in their brains not their index fingers as was true in the past. It comes from text messaging with their thumbs. So environmental factors determine the way the brain develops. With exposure to games boxes children are developing more towards speed than our generation. Kind regards SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin >>> Hi Michelle, >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Kind regards Hi Quentin, Interesting about the perception of the jugglers. As for riding in a car, my grandfather tells about the first time his MIL rode in a car. It was going only about 20 MPH, but she thought it was too fast. She was used to a horse and buggy. Besides the intrigue about children developing brains geared toward speed and dominant thumbs, it begs the question what skills aren't being developed. The book Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain, which explores the plasticity of the brain, cites many examples in which a skill may take over neurons that either aren't being used for their original purpose, such as when a person is blind, the brain uses those neurons for other skills instead of letting them lie dormant; or as in an accomplished string musician's (such as violinist) brain devotes more motor neurons to the four fingering digits of the left hand. So again, I have to wonder, when this happens, what skills/functions are going by the wayside? We had a very skilled guitartist friend who knew all the words/chords/single notes to literally hundreds of songs. (We were totally blown away one night when he sang and played the complete 20 minute version of Alice's Restaurant.) As I believe I've mentioned to you before, this friend had multiple problems coping with life in general. We always joked that it was because he didn't have room in his brain for the mundane chores of living. I don't know how true that is, if the neuroplasticity could really be that extreme, and yet it often seemed that way. Best regards, Michelle C., T2 >>>> Hi Michelle, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >It was going only about 20 MPH, but she thought it was too fast. She >was used to a horse and buggy. WOW. Michelle, That brings home the message doesn't it. I was born too late for he horse and buggy age but my mother wasn't. Wonder how it affected here. >Besides the intrigue about children developing brains geared toward >speed and dominant thumbs, it begs the question what skills aren't being >developed. Perhaps none. It is suggested that computer ibox games are developing speed that simply weren't there before. Kids are acquiring higher IQs as a result apparently. > The book Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain, which explores >the plasticity of the brain, cites many examples in which a skill may [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >if the neuroplasticity could really be that extreme, and yet it often >seemed that way. Although you joked about it IMHO you were close to the truth if not spot on. Good on you for having such insight into the vagaries that make us different. >Best regards, >Michelle C., T2 And warmest regards for the excellent examples you provide. Quentin. SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin >>>> Best regards, >>>> Michelle C., T2 [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > horse and buggy age but my mother wasn't. Wonder how it affected > here. Hi Quentin, I was rather blown away by the story as well. :-) >> Besides the intrigue about children developing brains geared toward >> speed and dominant thumbs, it begs the question what skills aren't being [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > speed that simply weren't there before. Kids are acquiring higher IQs > as a result apparently. Cool! Increased speed due to the fact that there is an external stimulus with which the brain can interact. That makes sense. Kind of like riding in cars at higher speeds than a horse and buggy doesn't bother us because we grew up with them. Best regards, Michelle C., T2 >> The book Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain, which explores >> the plasticity of the brain, cites many examples in which a skill may [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > And warmest regards for the excellent examples you provide. > Quentin. >>> Hi Quentin, >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> >> Kind regards, > I agree, Quentin. Of course, it could always be both. ;-) Actually, > I've been wondering if children's brains are being developed differently > with our high-paced societies and all the technology that supports it. Of course they are. The human brain is "designed" to develop in response to the way it is used. Things you do a lot will recruit more of the brain, and things you never do will fade away. We're used to the idea of "use it or lose it" in terms of age and physiological performance, but it applies equally to the brain. It used to be thought that nearly all the brain development was achieved at a young age (varying from around ten years old to twenty dependingon criteria) and after that all that happened to the brain was that it slowly degenerated as you got older, more rapidly as you get very old. But we now know that while the young brain is much more plastic than the adult brain, adult brains still have an amazing amount of plasticity left. The most dramatic recent example of that was the London taxi driver study, where they found that middle aged people who became London taxi drivers started growth in the spatial navigation parts of the brain which went on for years, resulting in very much larger portions of the brain (in fact in the hippocampus) devoted to finding their way round the city. An interesting area of current research is where you can gain cross-over benefits, where learning to do one kind of thing makes it easier to do better at another apparently unrelated kind of thing. There is for example some suggestive evidence that teaching young children to swim or to play music has an improving effect on general more academic mental performance. SignatureChris Malcolm >An interesting area of current research is where you can gain >cross-over benefits, where learning to do one kind of thing makes it >easier to do better at another apparently unrelated kind of >thing. There is for example some suggestive evidence that teaching >young children to swim or to play music has an improving effect on >general more academic mental performance. Karate is an essential part of helping my youngster to cope with her dyslexia. She had a 6-month break a couple of years ago, and her reading age declined sharply; we found a new dojo, and her reading age was within months back close to what's predicted by her IQ. Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 150ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26 >> An interesting area of current research is where you can gain >> cross-over benefits, where learning to do one kind of thing makes it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > reading age declined sharply; we found a new dojo, and her reading age > was within months back close to what's predicted by her IQ. Interesting example of that crossover effect. It's great to hear from somebody who has seen it at work. :-) Best regards, Michelle C., T2 > Nicky. > T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid > D&E, 150ug thyroxine > Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26 >>>> Hi Quentin, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > very much larger portions of the brain (in fact in the hippocampus) > devoted to finding their way round the city. Hi Chris, I enjoyed your reference to the middle-aged London taxi drivers. I've read lots of examples of brain plasticity, but that wasn't among them. > An interesting area of current research is where you can gain > cross-over benefits, where learning to do one kind of thing makes it > easier to do better at another apparently unrelated kind of > thing. There is for example some suggestive evidence that teaching > young children to swim or to play music has an improving effect on > general more academic mental performance. I suppose that was the general idea about a "well-rounded" education. Unfortunately, I'm not sure exposure in a single semester is adequate. Best regards, Michelle C., T2 >I suppose that was the general idea about a "well-rounded" education. >Unfortunately, I'm not sure exposure in a single semester is adequate. Wow, is that all you guys get? - my youngest has opted in to a music GCSE exam, so she will have had 11 years of state-sponsored music at least once a week by the time she's 16; the norm is 9. They also do some form of phys ed once a week, plus a variable amount of drama. They also have the option (which both mine took) to do a scheme that requires them to do extra exercise plus some form of community service; that happens outside of school hours, but is teacher-led. Then they do music practice and grade exams (Urgh! I hate the violin), horse-riding, karate and sailing outside of school. Eldest is also learning Japanese, and youngest is spending lots of time doing stage lighting for various school plays and local theatre groups. They actually do less of this kind of thing than I did when their age, and I suspect their academic load is heavier. Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 150ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26 >> I suppose that was the general idea about a "well-rounded" education. >> Unfortunately, I'm not sure exposure in a single semester is adequate. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > D&E, 150ug thyroxine > Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26 Hi Nicky, Children do have music once per week while they are in elementary school along with a once per week computer class, and once per week phys ed (this schedule may vary by state). Once a kid enters junior high and high school these classes become electives; they are not required. The required classes center around English, history, algebra, phys ed, limited science, and a foreign language for the college bound. Music and the other arts are very neglected imo. In college, the basic requirements are much the same, however, they often demand at least one semester of "humanities" which covers the arts. This was what I was thinking about when I made the comment about a well rounded education. Best regards, Michelle C., T2 >In college, the basic requirements are much the same, however, they >often demand at least one semester of "humanities" which covers the >arts. This was what I was thinking about when I made the comment about >a well rounded education. Ah! Not a requirement in our system at all, at college level. I'm currently trying to work out how to get the kids to continue sport of some kind at college; the eldest may continue her flute, as it's pretty portable, but I expect the youngest will give up her violin- unless she finds a fiddle band : ) Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 150ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26 >> In college, the basic requirements are much the same, however, they >> often demand at least one semester of "humanities" which covers the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > D&E, 150ug thyroxine > Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26 I'm always torn about what would be the appropriate courses for the largest numbers of students. There are some students who would excel at their studies IF they were permitted to concentrate primarily in the subjects in which they are interested and have some talent for. These same students can find school a drudgery when forced to take courses for which they have no affinity. On the other hand, what knowledge is necessary for people to know whether or not they have an affinity for the topic or not? It's an interesting question. Ah, a fiddle band. :-) There are lots of fiddles in the country-western bands here. Very talented bunch of musicians. Perhaps you are talking about some other style of music though? Best regards, Michelle C., T2 >>> In college, the basic requirements are much the same, however, they >>> often demand at least one semester of "humanities" which covers the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> pretty portable, but I expect the youngest will give up her violin- >> unless she finds a fiddle band : ) > I'm always torn about what would be the appropriate courses for the > largest numbers of students. There are some students who would excel at > their studies IF they were permitted to concentrate primarily in the > subjects in which they are interested and have some talent for. These > same students can find school a drudgery when forced to take courses for > which they have no affinity. > On the other hand, what knowledge is necessary for people to know > whether or not they have an affinity for the topic or not? > It's an interesting question. When I was at school everyone including me agreed on the subjects I had an affinity for, and those I didn't. I did very well in those I really liked, and somewhere between mediocre and bad in those I didn't. Then something very remarkable happened. After the age of 16, when many kids left school, I stayed on. The teaching regime changed, and we got a completely new set of teachers. I was amazed to discover that some of my previously hated subjects became subjects I liked, and started doing very well at. And vice versa. That was when I realised how important the teacher was. I'd been confusing interesting subjects with good teachers, and bad subjects with bad teachers. The truth was I liked subjects with good teachers and was bored by bad teachers. I liked and was good at anything with a really good teacher. I reacted very negatively to bad teachers. SignatureChris Malcolm >>>> In college, the basic requirements are much the same, however, they >>>> often demand at least one semester of "humanities" which covers the [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > and was bored by bad teachers. I liked and was good at anything with a > really good teacher. I reacted very negatively to bad teachers. Totally agree. Although I've always loved science (blessed to have good teachers?), the math that should accompany it was often difficult for me. In algebra, I could work the equations and had a good enough memory to get good grades on the exams, but without any practical applications, I always thought to myself, "Who cares what x equals? It's meaningless." Then I took chemistry and we used lots of algebra. Ah-ha! The x's mean something. Much better. At about the same time I again took algebra in college, and had a really terrific teacher. It dawned on me that part of my problem with math had been the teachers. I'd had a series of pretty poor ones starting in junior high and never realized it. My enthusiasm for increased, however, I could never completely get by the feeling that it was somehow difficult because I'd felt that way for so long. Best regards, Michelle C., T2 > Totally agree. Although I've always loved science (blessed to have good > teachers?), the math that should accompany it was often difficult for [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > completely get by the feeling that it was somehow difficult because I'd > felt that way for so long. I could do logic in a hearbeat, and geometry, but never algebra. It was a language I could not learn to speak. My ex was a math grad student with superb student evals. One said "he could teach linear algebra to a brain dead monkey." Right. But not to ME. :-) Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Susan In my opinion, algebra, to be fully understood, must be taught in the context of practical application. I learned to do algebra in chemistry and I learned to trigonometry in physics. After that, the straight algebra and trig classes were moot. I believe that not experiencing the practical application of the math is why so many struggle with it. (Of course there are those who are particularly gifted like you ex.) Best regards, Michelle C., T2 >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> >> Susan > In my opinion, algebra, to be fully understood, must be taught in the > context of practical application. I learned to do algebra in chemistry > and I learned to trigonometry in physics. After that, the straight > algebra and trig classes were moot. I believe that not experiencing the > practical application of the math is why so many struggle with it. (Of > course there are those who are particularly gifted like you ex.) I agree. I found algebra very hard to understand until the physics classes started using it. Seeing how it could be used in practical applications gave me the intuitions that made sense of it. With the physical intuitions it was easy to understand. Without them it made no sense and my brain revolted against it. My maths teacher thought this indicated that I was too stupid to understand pure maths and needed a mental crutch. He was very annoyed when I later won the maths prize :-) SignatureChris Malcolm >>> x-no-archive: yes >>> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > mental crutch. He was very annoyed when I later won the maths prize > :-) LOL! However, I would say that doing pure math without the application is kind of like knowing individual musical notes or chords and not having a song. Best regards, Michelle C., T2 >That was when I realised how important the teacher was. I'd been >confusing interesting subjects with good teachers, and bad subjects >with bad teachers. The truth was I liked subjects with good teachers >and was bored by bad teachers. I liked and was good at anything with a >really good teacher. I reacted very negatively to bad teachers. Yeah. Around 16 or so I discovered that text books could be a cracking good read, too, and could replace the bad teacher altogether... Nicky. >That was when I realised how important the teacher was. I'd been >confusing interesting subjects with good teachers, and bad subjects >with bad teachers. The truth was I liked subjects with good teachers >and was bored by bad teachers. I liked and was good at anything with a >really good teacher. I reacted very negatively to bad teachers. A common comment I've encountered for not liking mathematics was their mathematics teacher had bad breath. SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin : >That was when I realised how important the teacher was. I'd been : >confusing interesting subjects with good teachers, and bad subjects : >with bad teachers. The truth was I liked subjects with good teachers : >and was bored by bad teachers. I liked and was good at anything with a : >really good teacher. I reacted very negatively to bad teachers. I had very good math teaching in igh School, but in college and graduate school I found that the teachers were often brilliant and had n idea how to explain to students like me, who were no longer able to intuit the math as they had had this come easily to them. brilliance and teaching ability are not the same thing and for non-majors you need more teaching and less brilliance. Wendy : A common comment I've encountered for not liking mathematics was their : mathematics teacher had bad breath. > The > required classes center around English, history, algebra, phys ed, > limited science, and a foreign language for the college bound. Music > and the other arts are very neglected imo. What about Science? We have this same stupidity in NSW High Schools. We are basically making kids unemployable morons. SignatureGreat advances in Debian Linux; post a bug report and get spam in three days. >> The >> required classes center around English, history, algebra, phys ed, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > We have this same stupidity in NSW High Schools. We are basically making > kids unemployable morons. As for science, the key is to make it fun and interesting--starting in elementary school. However, our schools are so strapped for money, that having the resources to actually do science (experiments) isn't available, and the kids are left with dry reading. I think that's why a lot of kids aren't interested, and take only the minimum required. Heck, I'd just like to see the high school kids here get a course on balancing their checkbooks, how to understand credit card interest, and how to make a budget. Often they get economic theory here (Karl Marx, etc.), and still know nothing about how to manage their personal finances. Best regards, Michelle C., T2 >Heck, I'd just like to see the high school kids here get a course on >balancing their checkbooks, how to understand credit card interest, and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Best regards, >Michelle C., T2 Hi Michelle, Here in NZ they have had success teaching pragmatic mathematics. Mathematics with every day application. Like how good a deal is 15% off? How to balance a cheque book fits in there. Working out one's proportion of the rent etc. The tertiary students who will become automotive mechanics specialize in doing calculations that suit them. Horse for course you could say. Classes that are likely to major in science subjects get to learn algebra and calculus. SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin > The tertiary students who will become automotive mechanics specialize in > doing calculations that suit them. Horse for course you could say. Well, we no longer have this in NSW. There is this bleat to have ALL students do their higher school certificate. So you can now do a mechanics apprenticeship as part of your HSC. Basically they replace the mechanics maths course with the useless basic general course. > Classes that are likely to major in science subjects get to learn > algebra and calculus. Umm, algebra is basic stuff. SignatureGreat advances in Debian Linux; post a bug report and get spam in three days. -- Great advances in Debian Linux; post a bug report and get spam in three days. : > The tertiary students who will become automotive mechanics specialize in : > doing calculations that suit them. Horse for course you could say. : Well, we no longer have this in NSW. There is this bleat to have ALL : students do their higher school certificate. So you can now do a : mechanics apprenticeship as part of your HSC. Basically they replace the : mechanics maths course with the useless basic general course. : > Classes that are likely to major in science subjects get to learn : > algebra and calculus. : Umm, algebra is basic stuff. I taught for several years in vocational High Schools, teaching Social Studies(History, geography and Economic) to kid who were spending about half the day in "shop" courses and related tch. At the firsts school, fasion Industries, they were going to be various kinds of clothing workers or upholsterers, in the send, Machine and Metal Trads, they were doing carpentry, cabinetmaking, machine shop, refrigeration and air conditioning, etc. Much of the related tech in the cclothing school involved, measurement, structure and compsition etc of various cloths, including such issues a flammability, weave, etc. At the boys M&MT they had material related to thier respective trades. Teaching History to such kids was often a challange, particularly at the boys school, as they saw no relevance to their trade. This made discipline difficult unless you coul dfind a waay to catch their interest. I was no artist, but found creating cartoons that reflected the topic of the lesson helped a great dealie. in teaching the frictions between colonial powers that, constanly threatened was, I drew a map of Africa(very crude drawing) with a line from N-S labelled england and one from E-W labelld France and at the junction of the lines put exclmation points and labelled it Fashoda. This would serve to start the discussion. This enabed me to get some knowledge into otherwise resistant heads. There was also much comment on my drawing in a good natured way. I don't know how the system is workign now. as it is over 40 years since I left those school. Wendy >: > The tertiary students who will become automotive mechanics specialize in >: > doing calculations that suit them. Horse for course you could say. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > >Wendy Well done Wendy. It sounds as though you had a talent for teaching these students. SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin >> The tertiary students who will become automotive mechanics specialize in >> doing calculations that suit them. Horse for course you could say. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Umm, algebra is basic stuff. How often do you use algebra during your daily life? Best regards, Michelle C., T2 >>> The tertiary students who will become automotive mechanics specialize in >>> doing calculations that suit them. Horse for course you could say. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> Umm, algebra is basic stuff. > How often do you use algebra during your daily life? At least once a month. Sometimes in optical perspective geometry, because I've taken up a retired interest in photography, but mostly in refining the spreadsheets I've devised which model the relationships between my exercise and my physical capabilities. I do that just for the fun of it, and because it helps to keep me motivated to do exercise by giving it extra interest. Sometimes I'll spend nearly a whole day on it. But if I'd never been taught maths at school and university by good teachers I'd have completely missed out on such interesting and entertaining calculations :-) SignatureChris Malcolm >>>> The tertiary students who will become automotive mechanics specialize in >>>> doing calculations that suit them. Horse for course you could say. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > teachers I'd have completely missed out on such interesting and > entertaining calculations :-) :-) :-) Okay, let me rephrase the question...how often do you think "most" people use algebra in their daily lives? Although I occasionally use algebra to re-figure proportions, I think the math related subject I use most often is drafting, because I quilt. Best regards, Michelle C., T2 > Okay, let me rephrase the question...how often do you think "most" > people use algebra in their daily lives? > > Although I occasionally use algebra to re-figure proportions, I think > the math related subject I use most often is drafting, because I quilt. Basically, I don't care about what most people do do. Why should everyone be condemned to the level of the terminally stupid? If they are taught the basics, then they have no excuse for no using it. SignatureGreat advances in Debian Linux; post a bug report and get spam in three days. > >> The tertiary students who will become automotive mechanics specialize in > >> doing calculations that suit them. Horse for course you could say. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > How often do you use algebra during your daily life? Well there's 'kitchen math', figuring the carb content of something I eat, and I do a lot of modification of knitting patterns. Signature"[xxx] has very definite opinions, and does not suffer fools lightly. This, apparently, upsets the fools." ---BB cuts to the pith of a flame-fest >>> The tertiary students who will become automotive mechanics specialize in >>> doing calculations that suit them. Horse for course you could say. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Best regards, >Michelle C., T2 Hmmm. Mentally mg/dl = mmol/l * 20 - (mmol/l * 20)/10 :-) Just for one small example...well, it's a simple formula rather than algebra, but it's based on algebraic methods. >> Umm, algebra is basic stuff. >> > How often do you use algebra during your daily life? fuel economy, price comparisons, how many bits x length will i get out of y length, how many boxes this size go into this larger box, etc. SignatureGreat advances in Debian Linux; post a bug report and get spam in three days. >>> Umm, algebra is basic stuff. >>> >> How often do you use algebra during your daily life? > > fuel economy, price comparisons, how many bits x length will i get out of > y length, how many boxes this size go into this larger box, etc. I guess we differ on our definition of algebra. ;-) I consider this basic math. Best regards, Michelle C., T2 >>>> Umm, algebra is basic stuff. >>>> >>> How often do you use algebra during your daily life? >> >> fuel economy, price comparisons, how many bits x length will i get out of >> y length, how many boxes this size go into this larger box, etc. > I guess we differ on our definition of algebra. ;-) I consider this > basic math. The distinctions I learned at school were that if it only involved numbers and the multiplication tables it was arithmetic. If you had to use letters as well as numbers it was algebra, which was also mathematics. If there were no letters, but some of the numbers involved were transcendental (roots, logs, trig, etc.) it was mathematics. So long division is arithmetic, but the process similar to long division for calculating square roots is mathematics. But I note that many Americans call math what I think of as only arithmetic, such as the proportion calculations for changing recipe amounts for different numbers of people. SignatureChris Malcolm >>>>> Umm, algebra is basic stuff. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > arithmetic, such as the proportion calculations for changing recipe > amounts for different numbers of people. Yes, arithmetic and math are used interchangeably here. However, math/arithmetic and algebra two different things. ;-) That said, I like your explanation. Best regards, Michelle C., T2 >> The tertiary students who will become automotive mechanics specialize in >> doing calculations that suit them. Horse for course you could say. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Umm, algebra is basic stuff. hi Terry, That reminds me of a student who asked if I could teach them algebra on Friday. I took a look at their prescription and said, "yes". I based what I taught on DO and UNDO like the computer commands. It was successful. Too often teachers teach more than is necessary for the student's needs. Kind regards, >Great advances in Debian Linux; post a bug report and get spam in three >days. SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin > That reminds me of a student who asked if I could teach them algebra on > Friday. I took a look at their prescription and said, "yes". I based > what I taught on DO and UNDO like the computer commands. It was > successful. Too often teachers teach more than is necessary for the > student's needs. We have discussions here occasionally on how to teach maths, science and tech stuff. SWMBO is an infants/primary teacher, but apart from maths, not the strongest(as are most) in the other two. Emphasis is always finding out kids interest to develop relevant examples of uses, then easiest Works a treat. SignatureGreat advances in Debian Linux; post a bug report and get spam in three days. >> Heck, I'd just like to see the high school kids here get a course on >> balancing their checkbooks, how to understand credit card interest, and [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Classes that are likely to major in science subjects get to learn > algebra and calculus. Hi Quentin, I don't know why pragmatic mathematics isn't a required high school course here. I'm hoping after the economic melt down that may change. We'll see. The other unfortunate thing is that because Americans believe that anybody can do anything (which is a great sentiment, but not always practical) often kids are pushed into doing higher mathematics (algebra is required for all high school kids, and in some places geometry too) when in fact, a large percentage of these kids are not college bound. This sets them up to feel like failures when in fact, they may do perfectly well at a vocational school where they can learn a trade. Thanks for the information. Best regards, Michelle C., T2 >>> Heck, I'd just like to see the high school kids here get a course on >>> balancing their checkbooks, how to understand credit card interest, and [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >course here. I'm hoping after the economic melt down that may change. >We'll see. After the Russians launched sputnik we had a dramatic change in the way physics was taught. America was desperate to catch up in the space race and training more physicists was seen as part of the way to achieve this. PSSC physics it was called and it was very practical with multi-flash photography, air tracks etc. We loved it. Without that impetus physics teaching has died away once more. So you could be right. The economic downturn could bring about a resurgence of pragmatic mathematics. >The other unfortunate thing is that because Americans believe that >anybody can do anything (which is a great sentiment, but not always [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >This sets them up to feel like failures when in fact, they may do >perfectly well at a vocational school where they can learn a trade. Sad, isn't it to see people put off mathematics at an early age. >Thanks for the information. > >Best regards, >Michelle C., T2 And thank you, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin >>> The >>> required classes center around English, history, algebra, phys ed, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> We have this same stupidity in NSW High Schools. We are basically making >> kids unemployable morons. > As for science, the key is to make it fun and interesting--starting in > elementary school. However, our schools are so strapped for money, that > having the resources to actually do science (experiments) isn't > available, and the kids are left with dry reading. I think that's why a > lot of kids aren't interested, and take only the minimum required. > Heck, I'd just like to see the high school kids here get a course on > balancing their checkbooks, how to understand credit card interest, and > how to make a budget. Often they get economic theory here (Karl Marx, > etc.), and still know nothing about how to manage their personal finances. When I was at school we were taught how to do compound interest calculations around age 14. It was thirty years later when I started thinking seriously about buying a house with a mortgage and comparing different kinds of package. I remembered the compound interest I'd been taught at school thirty years earlier. In those intervening years calculators had been invented which made it much easier. Very easy indeed if you had one of the expensive financial calculators which bank managers often had on their desks beside the computer. In one mortgage comparison session with my bank manager the computer went down. He stopped being able to get figures from the computer in answer to my questions. He found out that the computer was probably going to be down for at least a few hours. He suggested I make a new appointment, since we could proceed no further. "My questions are general," I said. "I don't need quotes to the penny, just general comparisons of different kinds of package. We've got the basic rates on your leaflet there, and your calculator can do the rest." He apologised for never having bothered to learn how to use the calculator. I asked if I could look at it. He handed it over. I verified that I could reproduce some of the figures in the printed leaflet and suggested we carry on checking things out using his calculator. He didn't like that idea at all, didn't trust the calculator to be using the same calculation methods as the bank. "But it's just straight compound interest," I said, "and as the figures show, the bank is using approximate monthly interest figures based on dividing annual by 12 instead of the strictly accurate monthly compounding, and your calculator can do whichever method you like. It's been specifically built to follow current banking calculation practices." It turned out that this "bank manager" hadn't the slightest clue how to calculate compound interest. That led me to check out another couple of banks. Their "bank managers" or "mortgage consultants" hadn't a clue how to do compound interest calculations either. I was gobsmacked. I wondered just how high up in a bank you had to go before you found someone who really understood compound interest. Recent events in the banking world suggest that once they'd got a computer on every desk in the bank they thought only the computers and the geeks in the programming dungeons needed to understand the mathematics of banking, and the people in charge could simply concentrate on getting the best profit forecasts out of the computers. We all know that for decades some banks, mortgage companies, insurance companies, etc., have been swindling their customers right up to the hilt of what the law permitted. What happened recently is that smarter banks started swindling stupider banks, which proved so hugely profitable they in effect started a toxic loan pyramid selling scheme. Those schemes produce amazing profits for those at the top until every sucker has been swindled stupid. Then they explode. In this case the banking world swindled itself stupid and exploded. So I blame the world financial crisis squarely on the schools which stopped teaching people how to do basic banking financial calculations :-) SignatureChris Malcolm >>>> The >>>> required classes center around English, history, algebra, phys ed, [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > stopped teaching people how to do basic banking financial > calculations :-) Very enlightening and scary story, Chris! Yikes! I agree with blaming the schools for alleviating basic banking financial calculations. However, I would also blame our business courses in our universities (at least the American universities) that went beyond financial instruction and started employing theoretical mathematical calculations that really had no basis in finance as a method of doing business. Also some psychologists have made the assertion that American business schools in universities such as Harvard, are turning out pure narcissists, and these people become the CEOs of our banks. Got to wonder if there isn't some validity to the hypothesis, because instead of hanging their heads at the mess they've made, we still get this overwhelming sense of entitlement from these people. Best regards, Michelle C., T2 >>>> The >>>> required classes center around English, history, algebra, phys ed, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >indeed if you had one of the expensive financial calculators which >bank managers often had on their desks beside the computer. For some reason the financial calculators are much dearer than the scientific calculators, say $75 instead of $18. Guess it is about competition or economies of scale. Not many people except those doing some degrees are interested in financial calculations these days. >In one mortgage comparison session with my bank manager the computer >went down. He stopped being able to get figures from the computer in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >basic rates on your leaflet there, and your calculator can do the >rest." And there are approximations for compound interest which would probably have served the purpose. For example the rule of 70. >He apologised for never having bothered to learn how to use the >calculator. I asked if I could look at it. He handed it over. I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >couple of banks. Their "bank managers" or "mortgage consultants" >hadn't a clue how to do compound interest calculations either. Not surprising. When there is a computer to be relied on it will be relied on. >I was gobsmacked. I wondered just how high up in a bank you had to go >before you found someone who really understood compound interest. Or how low. Managers tend to pride themselves on making personal decisions not on being able to do calculations. This is unlike the Chinese bureaucracy where mathematics exams were the way to promotion. As a result they developed an advance system of arithmetic unlike the Greeks who stumbled along with the Roman numeral system and turn to geometry for their solutions. >Recent events in the banking world suggest that once they'd got a >computer on every desk in the bank they thought only the computers and [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >stopped teaching people how to do basic banking financial >calculations :-) A frightening thought. Best wishes, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin >> The >> required classes center around English, history, algebra, phys ed, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >We have this same stupidity in NSW High Schools. We are basically making >kids unemployable morons. Sad if science is dropped from the general curriculum. It at least educated students on how to think. SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin >>>> Hi Quentin, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >young children to swim or to play music has an improving effect on >general more academic mental performance. Thanks Chris, I knew of the taxi drivers but not of the cross over from swimming and music. Mind you it doesn't surprise me. A woman scientist Miriam Diamond was I think her name showed with rats that their intelligence increased when they were given stimulating activity. She concluded that most rats were dying from boredom. I suspect the same thing can happen with humans if they don't take care. Kind regards SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin >>> Thanks. I have the typical ADD ability to focus when there's novelty >>> involved, so I have that way of assisting myself, too. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> Thanks, >> Quentin. > Hi Quentin, > I can't answer for PP, however in my observation of my dad, it's easy to > distract him from mundane things like paying bills example. A stray [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > what I call hyperfocus comes into play. He can think about a > problem/puzzle/interesting idea for hours. That's me, an untreated ADDult. I can easily focus all day or all week on something interesting, sometimes most unwisely forgetting all kinds of important but boring things I ought to do, like paying bills. I get bored so easily and so extremely that it's very hard for me to do boring things that take more than a minute, such as paying bills and tidying up. The usual stimulant treatments do work very well for me, but the condition of my elderly diabetic heart makes it unwise to use them. All my life I've been terrified of boredom. Discovering in late middle age about ADD was a revelation, and did help me to understand why I was different and how to cope with it. SignatureChris Malcolm >>>> Thanks. I have the typical ADD ability to focus when there's novelty >>>> involved, so I have that way of assisting myself, too. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > age about ADD was a revelation, and did help me to understand why I > was different and how to cope with it. Hi Chris, Research seligiline HCl. It's primarily used to treat Parkinson's disease often at 10 mg per day to raise dopamine levels. My dad takes 1.25 mg 2-3 times per week. (The medication has a long half-life. Takes 2 weeks to completely leave the body.) It doesn't cause him any of the problems associated with the typical stimulants. It's not absolutely perfect, but has been a big help. Best regards, Michelle C., T2 >>>>> Thanks. I have the typical ADD ability to focus when there's novelty >>>>> involved, so I have that way of assisting myself, too. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >> age about ADD was a revelation, and did help me to understand why I >> was different and how to cope with it. > Hi Chris, > Research seligiline HCl. It's primarily used to treat Parkinson's > disease often at 10 mg per day to raise dopamine levels. My dad takes > 1.25 mg 2-3 times per week. (The medication has a long half-life. Takes > 2 weeks to completely leave the body.) It doesn't cause him any of the > problems associated with the typical stimulants. It's not absolutely > perfect, but has been a big help. Thanks, I'll check it out. SignatureChris Malcolm > >Thanks. I have the typical ADD ability to focus when there's novelty > >involved, so I have that way of assisting myself, too. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Does novelty distract you or assist you? > I'd like to understand ADD better. Novelty helps me focus. When I'm doing something new or in novel conditions my mind is less liable to wander. PP >>> Thanks. I have the typical ADD ability to focus when there's novelty >>> involved, so I have that way of assisting myself, too. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > PP novelty = interest soon............. novelty can turn to 'i don't care' that then turns to 'unable to focus' IF we can catch teenlet with 'novelty' we have a chance...........small, but a chance :) kate Peppermint Patootie wrote: > In article <h165l8$ffl$1@news.eternal-september.org>, > Michelle C <bookbug_35@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Yes, my father has ADD (he's 64 now). Looking back, we know he had ADD as child--back when no one had a clue about it and just thought he was incorrigible. Also highly intelligent. He remembers his dad shouting at him, "Your IQ is higher than mine. How come you can't do your school work?" Pretty much describes the whole issue in a nutshell. The failure of his family to understand (not that they had any resources for understanding ADD back in the 50's) shot the hell out of his self-esteem, which added to the problem. > Wow. This is so exactly my experience. I was born in 1953. Starting in elementary school my mother would repeatedly back me into a corner. "What do you do these things?" she'd rage, and I had no answer. So they concluded I was lazy, irresponsible, obstinate and, yes, incorrigible, and I had nowhere to go but end up agreeing with them. It's a horrible feeling, to think you have no recourse but to say it's your fault you did those things you had no intention of doing. Wears out any self-esteem you've got. Shame city. Yep, you've described it exactly. Surprisingly, since my grandparents have come to live nearby (in a house behind ours), I've realized that my grandpa--my dad's dad--has ADD too. He has trouble following conversations, often goes off on tangents, and frequently fails to acknowledge what was just said, because he's thinking his own thoughts. Looking back over the years, I can see that he's always been this way, but seeing him nearly everyday has brought this home to me. Unlike my dad who had such trouble in school, my grandpa did okay though. However, his school experience occurred in a one room school house with 13 kids ranging in age from 1st grade to 8th. Much less stressful environment with individualized attention. My dad's brother shows some symptoms too. >> He was diagnosed when he was in his 40's, but didn't find adequate medication until his early 50's. He takes the Parkinson's med, seligiline for it. > I'm on Adderall, which helps a lot, but I may need to fine tune it sometime. I'm starting to have problems at work again. Although the seligiline is a long-acting med--he takes a tiny dose every 3 days--sometimes, he finds taking a break from it helps him "reset". Of course, the "reset" period has to occur when there isn't much going on that requires his attention. Michelle C. > PP My Grandson has problems with conversation also....he looses his place mid sentence. When he is on his meds we can have good conversations. He doesn't like how the Adderall makes him feel...so the last semester of school his Mom told him she was tired of fighting him about taking the meds...all of his grades went way down...he failed the semester in English so will have to "catch up" his Senior year....he went to his Mom and said I do need the meds. I told them to ask the Dr if maybe they could try cutting the dosage and see if he can handle it better. I remember a kid in my 4th grade class in the 50's had his knuckles rapped daily for not sitting still or not paying attention...disruppting the clas. I felt so sorry for him. Today he probably would have been diagnosed with ADD. No wonder allot of these kids ended up in trouble. > Peppermint Patootie wrote: > > In article <h165l8$ffl$1@news.eternal-september.org>, [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > and said I do need the meds. I told them to ask the Dr if maybe they > could try cutting the dosage and see if he can handle it better. Hi Jacqui, Sounds like seeing the consequences of not taking the med is exactly what your grandson needed to get with the program. I'm with you though, surely there is an adjustment that could be made in dosage or perhaps a different medication? > I remember a kid in my 4th grade class in the 50's had his knuckles > rapped daily for not sitting still or not paying attention...disruppting > the clas. I felt so sorry for him. Today he probably would have been > diagnosed with ADD. No wonder allot of these kids ended up in trouble. Yep. That's exactly right. Best regards, Michelle C. Thank you Michelle C for sharing this story of a man's life. It is so hard to be different and misunderstood as a child. The good news is the lucky ones grow out of it or at least come to have some understanding of their situation. I read just recently that an important part of changing to more successful patterns of behaviour is to make the old pattern seem unfamiliar and the new pattern familiar. Virginia Satir, a world famous and highly gifted family therapist is credited with saying that we strive to maintain familiarity in what we do more than our own survival. That is certainly true for many people with nutrition and T2 diabetes. What do you think? Best wishes, Quentin. >Peppermint Patootie wrote: > > In article <h165l8$ffl$1@news.eternal-september.org>, [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > > PP SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin >I read just recently that an important part of changing to more >successful patterns of behaviour is to make the old pattern seem >unfamiliar and the new pattern familiar. I read something similar last night - the theory was that it's a tradeoff between the reaction of the amygdala (emotional, fast response) and the cortex (cool, considered response) to a new situation. The amygdala responds first, due to the wiring of the brain, and doesn't like change; so if you can fool it into being happy, you get a much better chance at embedding change. In terms of reducing carbs, I think it's partly due to the fast feedback from your meter, and partly developing a less favourable view of carbs you don't want, that engage the amygdala on your side. I also think it's what Allan Carr does with his stop smoking, etc books. Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 150ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26 >>I read just recently that an important part of changing to more >>successful patterns of behaviour is to make the old pattern seem [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >brain, and doesn't like change; so if you can fool it into being >happy, you get a much better chance at embedding change. Hi Nicky, You give me a lot of food for thought with your comments. The amygdala is wired for reflexive response. If one could associate that with being unfamiliar ... Interesting possibilities. >In terms of reducing carbs, I think it's partly due to the fast >feedback from your meter, and partly developing a less favourable view >of carbs you don't want, that engage the amygdala on your side. I'm wondering how I made that transition relatively easily compared with some folks. With understanding there is a possibility of being able to help new comers more effectively. >I also think it's what Allan Carr does with his stop smoking, etc >books. > >Nicky. Thanks Nicky. Smoking has been irrelevant to me so I've not read his books. SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin >>I also think it's what Allan Carr does with his stop smoking, etc >>books. >>Thanks Nicky. > Smoking has been irrelevant to me so I've not read his books. It also occurs to me if it's what NLP is trying to do... Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 150ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26 > Thank you Michelle C for sharing this story of a man's life. > It is so hard to be different and misunderstood as a child. > The good news is the lucky ones grow out of it or at least come to > have some understanding of their situation. Hi Quentin, I would think that society's and the medical profession's greater understanding of ADD would be a boon to today's kids and newly diagnosed adults. However, throughout the years my mom has had kids in her class with ADD, and there is still a lot of misunderstanding. Things like, "he can play with his cars for hours, so I can't see why he can't focus in school?" Um...how about the 20-30 other little distractions in class? Lots of resistance to both the meds and cognitive therapy. It's sad when this happens because a lot of ADD kids are both intelligent and creative, often thinking outside the box. If given a chance who knows what they might have to offer society? > I read just recently that an important part of changing to more > successful patterns of behaviour is to make the old pattern seem [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > That is certainly true for many people with nutrition and T2 diabetes. > What do you think? I totally agree, and imo that statement covers just about everything. It's why a lot of women in abusive relationships stay in them. It's the way the men in their mother's life treated their mothers and they think it's normal. To do the things it takes to build a new and different life is a somehow scarier proposition. It takes a truly remarkable and determined person to move to a totally different kind of existence than she or he are used to. With people with self-esteem issues, it often seems to me that they're afraid to believe they deserve better. Best regards, Michelle C., T2 > Best wishes, > Quentin. [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] >> >>> PP >> I read just recently that an important part of changing to more >> successful patterns of behaviour is to make the old pattern seem [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I totally agree, and imo that statement covers just about everything. >It's why a lot of women in abusive relationships stay in them. So true though there are other descriptions of the situation. > It's the way the men in their mother's life treated their mothers and they think >it's normal. What a frightening possibility. It is amazing what can be accepted as normal. I recall once a HAPPY yet destructive scene. While traveling with friends we stopped for afternoon tea with some of their friends. Out came the best china. Each person was offered massive slices of cream cake. It was all done with such politeness and courtesy that it was hard to conceive of anything wrong ... except for the waddle. They were morbidly obese and then some. There seemed to be absolutely no connection in their minds between the loving ceremony of "and would you like another slice?" "I don't mind if I do." and their obesity. I will always remember their happy voices as they shared with one another. > To do the things it takes to build a new and different >life is a somehow scarier proposition. It takes a truly remarkable and >determined person to move to a totally different kind of existence than > she or he are used to. Oh, absolutely. I try to imagine what determination it would take for one of the children to rebel from that happy afternoon tea scene with its beautiful china. It would be as difficult as it is for women to escape from many abusive situations. Well it wouldn't be as dangerous by any means but it would be difficult to see there was a different existence possible, one they were unfamiliar with. > With people with self-esteem issues, it often >seems to me that they're afraid to believe they deserve better. It seems to me that is their self esteem issue. Being afraid to believe they deserve better must be a horrible experience. >Best regards, >Michelle C., T2 Thanks Michelle, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin Hi Quentin, I am so glad to read you. But as usual, you are too smart for me and find I cant grasp what you are saying. Also, Susan, Nicky and MIchele sound brilliant and I cant comprehend what they are saying Has my absence caused my brain cells to die. :-) or on the other hand, did I ever have any? Loretta -- I lol..im with you loretta.. reminds me of when i was in the bodybuilding groups..they would talk about molecul this and chemical that... i would just shrug and go lift heavy stuff ..hehe Hopefully when the smartypants make thier great breakthroughs they can take pity on us mere mortal minded types and just give us a pill..or somthing... :-) KROM > Hi Quentin, I am so glad to read you. But as usual, you are too smart > for me and find I cant grasp what you are saying. Also, Susan, Nicky [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > -- > I >Hi Quentin, I am so glad to read you. But as usual, you are too smart >for me and find I cant grasp what you are saying. Hi Loretta, I struggle with understanding what I'm saying so join the crowd. > Also, Susan, Nicky >and MIchele sound brilliant and I cant comprehend what they are saying Good for you. They are brilliant each in their own way. >Has my absence caused my brain cells to die. :-) >or on the other hand, did I ever have any? The way jest with us I doubt you have lost any brain cells. Keep up the good humour. That is more important than most things. Feel free to ask if you need anything translated. >Loretta Good to see you back. SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin |
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