Heart rate 2 minutes after excersize

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Phil Scott - 01 Jan 2004 07:36 GMT

I did some research and it indicates roughly that a 30 point drop in heart
rate after 2 minutes of stopping excercise indicates poor health... and a 50
point drop after 2 minute indicates excellent health.

I notice that 10 minutes on the tread mill is real hard on me...but others
are doing half an hour or more at faster speeds. So I did a rough check of
my heart rate drop after 2 minutes. It warnt good kids.

Now I have a question. Has anyone else been measuring their heart rate
drop after excersize. and did it improve over time?

a drop of under 22 beats per minute after stopping excerize for 2 minutes
provides a mortality rate prediction of 2.6 to 1 that is 2 and a half
times more likely to kick off than someone of the same age with a ratio of 1
to 1...that would be about a 50 beat per minute drop in heart rate after 2
minutes resting.

I also learned that the average person has 5 liters of blood... and all 5
liters of that is circulated at 75 beats per minute in a healthy person each
minute. .. so at 150 beats per minute a healthy person is puming 10 liters
per minute or a bit over 2 galons.

Thinking about that and the muscles need for blood after excercise...a heart
rate drop of say 25 beats per minute, 2 min after excercise, instead of the
ideal 50 bpm drop, would indicate that heart was pumping about half as much
blood per minute in the case if the slower recovery to normal? Judging by
what i see of myself and others on the treadmill Id say Im pumping half as
much blood.

And that goes bad fast if I eat grease or mucous producing food... as a
mechanical engineer that tells me that the arterial system is restricted so
that modest increases in blood viscosity have an exponential effect on flow
resistance. In other words its not weak heart muscle or a single
restriction as much as it is a general narrowing of the arteries. A person
could even plug that into a pipe sizing program and work out the diameter
reduction.

A recovery to resting heart rate,( to about 75 bpm for most people) within 6
minutes of excercise is considered very good. These are consided
extremely good indicators of health and fitness in the medical articles I
reviewed on a google search.

So again, my question is, does excercise generally reverse that condition or
do I need to get back into my arterial plaque removal program?

My guess is that if 2 months on the tread mill reverses the condition..that
the arteries are more or less open and stretchable to increase blood flow.
and if the excercise doesnt result in faster BPM drop after exercize, then
the person would have a blockage problem.

Ive done a lot of chelation therapy (EDTA acid drip into the arm, 70
treatments each takes about 3 hours) that works very well for most
people...but there are others getting the same effects on a product taken
orally called HeartTechnology
(www.herbaladvantage.com) and one report of a guy who went with high doses
of ginko billoba.

I might try those in compbination prior to treadmill work and see what
happens with the recovery rate.

Phil Scott

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Phil Scott - 01 Jan 2004 09:43 GMT

> I did some research and it indicates roughly that a 30 point drop in heart
> rate after 2 minutes of stopping excercise indicates poor health... and a 50
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> I might try those in compbination prior to treadmill work and see what
> happens with the recovery rate.

Its curable. Syndrom X its called.
http://www.dohealthnet.com/article1010.html

> Phil Scott

Reply to this Message

Annette - 01 Jan 2004 11:07 GMT

> > Ive done a lot of chelation therapy (EDTA acid drip into the arm,

For those who are curious, you can find out more about this
unproven, unsupported therapy, from a skeptics report at;

http://skepdic.com/chelate.html

"Critics of the therapy in the American Medical Association (AMA)
and the Federal Drug Administration (FDA) claim that there is no
good scientific evidence supporting the extravagant claims of
advocates."

Of course, advocates claim it's all a conspiracy to prevent people
from accessing this wonderful cure.

What bothers me most, is that it may be keeping people from seeking
more helpful and legitimate medical treatment. After all, the
promoters are claiming cures for some very serious & life
threatening disorders;
"Advocates claim that there is ample evidence to support the claim
that chelation can prevent and cure heart disease, stroke, senility,
diabetic gangrene and many other vascular diseases."

And while they are messing about with this stuff, their condition is
getting worse. The bit about GANGRENE really worried me.

>> 70
> > treatments each takes about 3 hours) that works very well for most
> > people...but there are others getting the same effects on a product taken
> > orally called HeartTechnology
> > (www.herbaladvantage.com)

I could find nothing about this therapy at all. But people can buy
their pills if they like to take a chance.

and one report of a guy who went with high

> doses
> > of ginko billoba.

Ginko biloba may have some merit. For some details about it and
it's properties see;
http://www.stanford.edu/group/hopes/treatmts/antiox/k_ginkgo.html

It certainly has anti-inflamatory and blood thinning properties.
OTOH, high doses seems a bit dangerous if not used under medical
supervision.

"some case studies reported that people taking Ginkgo experience
prolonged bleeding times due to its inhibition of PAF. Two case
reports of hemorrhage were reported by people who were taking
Ginkgo. Compounds such as aspirin and warfarin that are known to
inhibit blood clotting have been found to result in bleeding
complications when taken with Ginkgo."

Although some research has indicated it may have some protective
effect on neurological damage, and be helpful for treating Alzheimer
?s Disease, no research has been carried out to date on heart
disease.

> > I might try those in compbination prior to treadmill work and see what
> > happens with the recovery rate.

Phil, if you do have impaired heart function, you are dicing with
death to play around with these unproven remedies. There are much
safer and proven treatments available through a legitimate doctor.

Or then again you may just be a shill.

> Its curable. Syndrom X its called.
> http://www.dohealthnet.com/article1010.html

I didn't even bother looking at this link. Syndrome X or more
properly, Metabolic Syndrome, is NOT curable. Scientific evidence
is mounting that indicates the underlying cause is probably genetic.

It CAN be managed or controlled, but NOT cured. It's manifestations
can be prevented or slowed, or treated. The underlying mechanism
cannot be altered.

That's it.

Annette

Reply to this Message

Phil Scott - 01 Jan 2004 20:37 GMT

> > > Ive done a lot of chelation therapy (EDTA acid drip into the
> arm,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> http://skepdic.com/chelate.html

Search further you will find many other scientific journal material on the
issue including the 1990 study by Stanford University...the negative report
refer to a 1945 study that consisted of only 3 treatments.

Im also sure that some bogus claims have been made for chelation
therapy..but have not seen that in the 3 or 4 clinics Ive gotten chelated
at...I have sat in rooms with 10 or 20 others being chelated...we share
stories... it changes lives dramatically in about 90% of the cases and fails
in about 10%... (it wont handle blocked arteries).

> "Critics of the therapy in the American Medical Association (AMA)
> and the Federal Drug Administration (FDA) claim that there is no
> good scientific evidence supporting the extravagant claims of
> advocates."

The AMA sends thugs after chelation practitioners...who continue to do well
in the US because of all the repeat bidness.\ Many chelationists are full
medical doctors who used to belong to the AMA...but were booted out because
they offered chelation.

In Germany they will not do by pass surgery on most patients unless prior
chelation has failed......... this larger picture is work a review... you
can find hundreds of links on google yourself...my dredging up a single
possibly biased one wont serve well.

> Of course, advocates claim it's all a conspiracy to prevent people
> from accessing this wonderful cure.

The AMA does indeed appear to be protecting its vested interests...the did
this with the Hpylori / Ulcer thing too ...for 20 years a hundreds of
thousands died needlessly they would not even try the currently approved 3
antibiotic treatment that is over 89% sucessful.... The AMA its problems.

But yes there are quacks...and there are quacks within the AMA pushing
approved treatments in inappropriate ways and for too much money as well.

One should investigate broadly imho before doing any treatment with anyone,

> What bothers me most, is that it may be keeping people from seeking
> more helpful and legitimate medical treatment. After all, the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that chelation can prevent and cure heart disease, stroke, senility,
> diabetic gangrene and many other vascular diseases."

Fraud is rampant as you say...I have not seen it rampant in the chelation
clinics I got treated at...and sat next to a few people who were being
chelated with the doctors advice that it probably wouldnt work in thier case
(one of dementia that I can recall, but he was trying it...that was in
1980,,, no known cure for alzhiermers at the time).

I know for a fact that chelation saved my life...it was grossly evident in a
400% or so increase in stamina. and treadmill tests...but it sure as hell
isnt perfect or the only solution... follow on work with other approaches
has given extended benefits.

> And while they are messing about with this stuff, their condition is
> getting worse. The bit about GANGRENE really worried me.

You can no doubt find a few thousand fraudsters in any field... I havent
seen it personally with chelation but Im sure they exist.

> >> 70
> > > treatments each takes about 3 hours) that works very well for
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I could find nothing about this therapy at all. But people can buy
> their pills if they like to take a chance.

find the 'heart technology' hyper link, its in the header on page one. at
taht web site then look at what he says and what tests he has done... I got
spectacular results with this stuff...ymmv.

> and one report of a guy who went with high
> > doses
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> it's properties see;
> http://www.stanford.edu/group/hopes/treatmts/antiox/k_ginkgo.html

Now there you go... very interesting... I think ginko is fantastic and so
to millions of others...but our local TV station blabber mouth MD says its
all hogwash...and he is an AMA member touting thier line on many issues.

The AMA btw is slowly beginning to recognise many of these alternative
approaches,,,why? Their members were loosing too much business to viable
alternative medicine. Thats been on 60 minutes a few times and in the
paper.

The AMA is as full of error as it is sound practice.

> It certainly has anti-inflamatory and blood thinning properties.
> OTOH, high doses seems a bit dangerous if not used under medical
> supervision.

Everything is dangerous...some more dangerous than others... you can find
dosage experience with Ginko on the web in credible scientific studies to
determine the risks in any particular case...its considered not so toxic in
high doses....but as with any blood thinner, can precipitate a fatal stroke.

One must assess the risks and benefits and go from there...the AMA would
advice a dying 100 year ol man not to take a tums because it could harm his
health.... they did with with dying aids patients while back while the
public jeered.... the aids guy was breathing his last but the AMA would risk
harming his health with a trial drug.

Rational behavior is not a halmark of many organizations..

> "some case studies reported that people taking Ginkgo experience
> prolonged bleeding times due to its inhibition of PAF. Two case
> reports of hemorrhage were reported by people who were taking
> Ginkgo. Compounds such as aspirin and warfarin that are known to
> inhibit blood clotting have been found to result in bleeding
> complications when taken with Ginkgo."

correct. and there are other issues as well... there are always issues.

> Although some research has indicated it may have some protective
> effect on neurological damage, and be helpful for treating Alzheimer
> 's Disease, no research has been carried out to date on heart
> disease.

correct...but if you live or are around a retirement community and heard the
war stories you have that view as well... scientific or not...if the old
fart takes ginko for a few months and resumes his interest in reading and
starts chasing the women...thats progress...and if thats a broad experience
in the community it 'evidence' even if it is not scientific evidence.

There are no shortage of actualities that science has not proven...yet the
actuality exists. for instance how the neuron snyapes work is not know...yet
we know it functions.

> > > I might try those in compbination prior to treadmill work and
> see what
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> death to play around with these unproven remedies. There are much
> safer and proven treatments available through a legitimate doctor.

Ive worked with many doctors... most of the AMA certified ones failed
badly... the ones booted out of the AMA with other approaches provided great
improvements.

I have interviewed a few cariologists (some sneaking into the preventive
medical clinic in SF calif to get chelation treatment :)... some jabber 20
year old, outdated technology at me... The AMA includes not shortage of
complete morons imho..about the same percentage you find in any other
proffession..... a review of law suits against them demonstrates the issue
with stunning clarity....as the AMA stands by sometimes for years doing
nothing.

> Or then again you may just be a shill.

How could I be shilling for 3 *competing therapies... especially when two
of them are OTC remedies anyone can purchase on their own from sources I
dont even know of... thats also true with chelation... there are hundreds of
doctors delivering that therapy in the US, and thousands world wide...
how could I be shilling?

> > Its curable. Syndrom X its called.
> > http://www.dohealthnet.com/article1010.html
>
> I didn't even bother looking at this link. Syndrome X or more
> properly, Metabolic Syndrome, is NOT curable. Scientific evidence
> is mounting that indicates the underlying cause is probably genetic.

It was reporting the work of Dr Ornsish MD in San Francisco...he is world
famous an in good standing with the AMA. You would find it interesting as
it defines these issues with links. Dr Ornish has been curing SyndromeX
for over 5 years now, and speaking to doctors nation wide and is published
in their peer reviewed journals.

You'd think the AMA would notice...why dont they? He is world
famous for his results. and treats many of his fellow doctors who write up
thier succes with his approach..and he has the double blind studies to prove
his approach.

Look...read the article...then look around to see if you can find a site
trashing Ornish and read that...and keep reading, and understand the science
yourself... then you will have any conclusions you reach on a better
footing.

> It CAN be managed or controlled, but NOT cured. It's manifestations
> can be prevented or slowed, or treated. The underlying mechanism
> cannot be altered.

Dr Ornish has proven with hundreds of patients that he has reversed the
syndrom.

> That's it.

..Im glad you arent armed :)

Phil Scott

> Annette
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Jenny - 01 Jan 2004 14:43 GMT

Phil,

When I started exercising on the treadmill 9 months ago, at the least bit of
exertion my heart rate would shoot up to the 160s and not come down for ten
minutes. My doctor sent me to a cardiologist, who said that I did not have
anything wrong with my heart except for being extremely out of shape. (I'd
hurt my back and couldn't walk well for several years.) My resting heart
rate at the time was in the high 80s or low 90s.

I started out using the "fat burn" program and setting it at a very modest
112 bpm. I did this program which meant walking very slowly at almost no
slope for a couple weeks. Then I boosted it to 115 and did that for another
couple weeks. After 6 weeks of this extremely modest program, I started
noticing that my heart rate was much steadier. I kept gradually increasing
my target heart rate for the next couple months.

Now, nine months later I routinely work out at 132 bpm (80% calculated for
my age) am doing intervals
up to 150 bpm. My heart rate recovery is much better--after the most
intense workout with a 5 minute cooldown I usually am at 104 bpm. When I
run the "fit test" on the treadmill using the heart rate monitor, it says
I'm "above average" since I have to really push to get my heart rate up.

My resting heart rate now is in the high 60s or low70s.

So yes, you can greatly improve your heart rate and recovery. However, for
me the trick was to start very very slow, not straining the heart too much.
Figure out your maximum heart rate and then start out aiming for a heart
rate that is 60% of that maximum. (Your calculated max heart rate should be
220 minus your age.)

Go slow, only increase your heart rate target by 3 bpm increments every week
for the first couple months.
Get checked out by a cardiologist if your family doctor thinks it
adviseable, as it will free your mind from worrying or, alternatively,
explain what it is you have to worry about and how best to approach it.

Good luck!

-- Jenny
Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!

Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes and more at
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

> I did some research and it indicates roughly that a 30 point drop in heart
> rate after 2 minutes of stopping excercise indicates poor health... and a 50
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
>
> Phil Scott

Reply to this Message

Phil Scott - 01 Jan 2004 20:47 GMT

> Phil,
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> up to 150 bpm. My heart rate recovery is much better--after the most
> intense workout with a 5 minute cooldown I usually am at 104 bpm.

Thanks for the feed back. It would be good to know much your heart rate
drops after 2 minutes. You are apparently getting a close to or even a
50 bpm drop in 5 minutes. That has to be good. If it drops to your
resting heart rate in 6 minutes thats about as good as it gets by the study
I read.

When I

> run the "fit test" on the treadmill using the heart rate monitor, it says
> I'm "above average" since I have to really push to get my heart rate up.

That says a lot...that you have to push to get your heart rate up. and is
very encouraging for me to hear, especially comming from where you were.

> My resting heart rate now is in the high 60s or low70s.

Thats superb you know. Im still interested in how much it drops in 2 min.
my guess is 35 to 40 bpm...that would be in the very good range for your
age, maybe even excellent for your age. I have it appears 3 or 4 months
work to reach those levels myself.

> So yes, you can greatly improve your heart rate and recovery. However, for
> me the trick was to start very very slow, not straining the heart too much.
> Figure out your maximum heart rate and then start out aiming for a heart
> rate that is 60% of that maximum. (Your calculated max heart rate should be
> 220 minus your age.)

Mine according the machine 136..but thats too steep for me..Im going to
switch to your approach and take it back to 115 bpm for a week..then slowly
go up. Pushing seems like it might be destructive. The standard machine
settings were pushing it for me...I can revamp the automatic settngs by
inputting my age at 80 or something.

> Go slow, only increase your heart rate target by 3 bpm increments every week
> for the first couple months.

Thanks, thats what I needed..numbers to go by.

Phil Scott

> Get checked out by a cardiologist if your family doctor thinks it
> adviseable, as it will free your mind from worrying or, alternatively,
[quoted text clipped - 87 lines]
> >
> > Phil Scott

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