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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / May 2008

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A cheese/calcium/fat question

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David - 18 May 2008 00:16 GMT
Thanks those who have sorted me out about fibre.
Just have another question please.
I've worked out a good diet for myself which I am enjoying. But after doing
the nutritional analysis I find my calcium intake kind of low - I am getting
some calcium out of veg but I find the easiest way for me is  to get calcium
from cheese - if I have 100 gms of cheese a day that gives me around 800 mg
calcium but also quite of a bit of saturated fat i.e. 30 gms saturated fat
per day - trans fat next to zero
I know there is a debate about the harmful effects of saturated fats.
Can you please give me any ideas on what I should be doing?

Am  grateful for your help
Ozgirl - 18 May 2008 04:42 GMT
> Thanks those who have sorted me out about fibre.
> Just have another question please.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Am  grateful for your help

I eat low fat yoghurt as a stand alone snack, doesn't affect my bg's like
milk does. Low fat cottage cheese, low fat cheese (0.2% fat is one cheese I
have - plastic cheese though), fish with bones - like canned salmon and
sardines.  Tofu and lots of green vegetables helps add to the total.
Legumes, especially soy beans. Oyster, I am lucky to get some for free once
a week. If you feel you can't get enough try a calcium/magnesium supplement
(those two minerals are synergestic).

If you are going to cut out sat and trans fats then make sure you replace
them with good fats that provide  EFA's (essential fatty acids). EFA's
cannot be produced by the body and a low fat diet will quite simply not do
your health any favours.
David - 18 May 2008 09:58 GMT
>> Thanks those who have sorted me out about fibre.
>> Just have another question please.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> cannot be produced by the body and a low fat diet will quite simply not do
> your health any favours.

Excellent - foods I never thought of. Thanks for that -
Tiger_Lily - 18 May 2008 04:54 GMT
> Thanks those who have sorted me out about fibre.
> Just have another question please.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Am  grateful for your help

brocolli???

and what Ozgirl said

add vit D to the calcium supplement if you go that way........ the
calcium supplement should tout itself as 'bone building formula' and
already have the additional vitamins/minerals in it

ask your pharmacist

Signature

kate
type 1 since 1987
www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.diabetes-support.org.uk/newly%20diagnosed.html

David - 18 May 2008 10:00 GMT
>> Thanks those who have sorted me out about fibre.
>> Just have another question please.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> ask your pharmacist

Will learn to like brocoli!  I  just dont trust anything in pill form -
trying to get it from food
Thanks Ozgirl
Alan S - 18 May 2008 14:13 GMT
>Will learn to like brocoli!  I  just dont trust anything in pill form -
>trying to get it from food
>Thanks Ozgirl

Good thinking. I totally agree, but if it isn't possible or
practicable then consider supplementation. But only after
investigating and trialling as you are.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com
Latest:What to Eat Until You Get Your Meter.

Angkor Wat
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com
David - 18 May 2008 19:03 GMT
>>Will learn to like brocoli!  I  just dont trust anything in pill form -
>>trying to get it from food
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> practicable then consider supplementation. But only after
> investigating and trialling as you are.

I am trying to be drug free and supps free at some stage!!

> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
> d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Angkor Wat
> http://loraltravel.blogspot.com
W. Baker - 18 May 2008 19:35 GMT
: >>Will learn to like brocoli!  I  just dont trust anything in pill form -
: >>trying to get it from food
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
: >
: I am trying to be drug free and supps free at some stage!!

that's fine if it works out for you, but if not, there is no sin in taking
meds or vitamins, minerals, etc, if you need them.  Some can control by
diet and exercise alone, others can't or can't after some years as there
may well be more problems as time passes.  I, personally, am on drugs, the
same as I have been on for over 12 years now for the diabetes-metfomin,
1000mgs, tice a day, Amaryl 1 gram nightly adn  an n 1/3 of the BPmeds I
was on only a year ago.  I am an over 20 year typs 2, who became serious
about controllng about 12 yers ago.  Currently, little exercise other than
my stretches and PT for sciatica and sacroiliac probles that are salways
with me.  

Wendy
David - 18 May 2008 19:54 GMT
> : >>Will learn to like brocoli!  I  just dont trust anything in pill
> form -
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> my stretches and PT for sciatica and sacroiliac probles that are salways
> with me.

Yes I take your point Wendy - my sister is also T2 and chides me about my
obsession with not taking drugs - exactly the same as you - takes the meds
and she says 'if it helps me why not'
It makes much more sense to take the drugs than be at risk
Good how you have good control over the years

> Wendy
Julie Bove - 18 May 2008 05:00 GMT
> Thanks those who have sorted me out about fibre.
> Just have another question please.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Am  grateful for your help

Fish with bones, like sardines are high in calcium.  So are leafy greens.  I
mince up Swiss Chard very fine and mix it into things like hambuger gravy
and soup.  I put spinach in meatloaf.

I can't eat cheese because I'm allergic, but before I knew of the allergy, I
ate it every day and didn't worry about the sat fat.
David - 18 May 2008 10:01 GMT
>> Thanks those who have sorted me out about fibre.
>> Just have another question please.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> I can't eat cheese because I'm allergic, but before I knew of the allergy,
> I ate it every day and didn't worry about the sat fat.

Never realized about sardines - and thanks for the tips - my wife said she
will help me!
W. Baker - 18 May 2008 18:00 GMT
: Never realized about sardines - and thanks for the tips - my wife said she
: will help me!

Just make sure you don't get the "skinless-boneless" varieties:-).  The
reletively inexpensive  pink salmon that comes in 15 oz can has soft bones
in it and can be mashed upso they "disappear."  ayou can also get the flat
cans of tomato sardines, rather larger than the kind in the little  tins
aand try those, but do test to make sure the tomato sauce is OK for you.

Wendy
Nicky - 18 May 2008 09:09 GMT
>I know there is a debate about the harmful effects of saturated fats.
>Can you please give me any ideas on what I should be doing?

David,

Have you come across these lists? Dead handy for diet tweaking.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR15/wtrank/wt_rank.html

Nicky (Not personally terribly worried about sat fat...)
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.6%  BMI 25
David - 18 May 2008 10:03 GMT
>>I know there is a debate about the harmful effects of saturated fats.
>>Can you please give me any ideas on what I should be doing?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Have you come across these lists? Dead handy for diet tweaking.
> http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR15/wtrank/wt_rank.html

Nikki I think I love you! Never knew such a link existed! Wonderful to have
that tool. Just what I need
Thank you

> Nicky (Not personally terribly worried about sat fat...)
> T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
> D&E, 100ug thyroxine
> Last A1c 5.6%  BMI 25
Alan S - 18 May 2008 14:11 GMT
>Thanks those who have sorted me out about fibre.
>Just have another question please.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Am  grateful for your help

I eat both cheese and yoghurt. I doubt that I go close to
100gm daily of cheese, probably never more than 50gm and
rarely that.

However, I would eat a cup or two of plain home-made yoghurt
every couple of days, flavoured with fruit or berries and
Splenda.

Last time I ran a sample daily menu through DWIDB I found
that those, plus the combination of veges I eat, provided
more than enough calcium and I dropped my calcium
supplement.

If you go to this page
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR15/wtrank/sr15w301.pdf
and browse down the list, you will find some surprises if
you ignore all the cheeses, milks, yoghurts and cereals.

Collards, Rhubarb, sardines (its the bones, I also eat the
bones in canned salmon), Spinach, Soybeans, and Turnip
greens are high on the list. And there are lots of other
non-starchy choices further down that list.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com
Latest:What to Eat Until You Get Your Meter.

Angkor Wat
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com
David - 18 May 2008 19:02 GMT
>>Thanks those who have sorted me out about fibre.
>>Just have another question please.
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> greens are high on the list. And there are lots of other
> non-starchy choices further down that list.

Thanks Alan - great info - ran through the list of foods with calcium and
yes you are right - a few surprises particularly with veg - had no idea the
calcium content of some vegetables.
And good point about the bones - I will only buy canned salmon with bones
now as you say you just mash them
appreciate that thanks
Quentin Grady - 26 May 2008 09:54 GMT
>Thanks those who have sorted me out about fibre.
>Just have another question please.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Am  grateful for your help

G'day G'day David,

  Add the following to your list of favorates.  Tonight I decided it
was about time to make a short list of site relevant to diabetics to
make providing the URLs easier.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR15/wtrank/wt_rank.html

It seems like ricotta cheese might be a good choice for a T2 diabetic.
As always enjoy doing a bit of arithmetic in helping make wise
choices.   Pick a few things you might like to eat and work out the
calcium per calorie.  It could be cottage cheese is a better choice.
It often is thanks to its higher protein to fat content.  However be
aware cheese is manufactured and each recipe creates a different
product so brands differ in how suitable they are for you and your
long term goals.

Let me know what you think.   Ask more questions now you're on a roll.
We can all learn from the experience.

I loved ozgirls answers. She hit the nail on the head with fish where
one eats the bones. Canned sardines and salmon fit that category well.
Almonds do well thanks to their magnesium content. Sesame is also and
excellent choice.   I've been fascinated to watch a person losing
weight while eating a dessert spoon (maybe a tablespoon) of tahini per
day.  On ASD some of us advocate seeds as one of those things that
helps one form a balanced diet.  Tahini is one way to do that in a
practical manner.  You might like to think about that.  There are
fabulous Lebanese dishes suitable for Summer enjoyment.  Remember that
food is not only essential for nutrition but also for enjoying fine
things in the company of others.  

A glass of wine has a high calcium content. <grin>  Well the glass is
calcium silicate.  Unfortunately its joke that only engineers and
chemists are likely to appreciate.

Best wishes,
Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Ozgirl - 26 May 2008 11:06 GMT
>> Thanks those who have sorted me out about fibre.
>> Just have another question please.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> I loved ozgirls answers. She hit the nail on the head with fish where
> one eats the bones. Canned sardines and salmon fit that category well.

It seems that bones in sardines and salmon (canned) is more an Oz/NZ thing.
From what I gather most canned sardines in the US is boneless whereas I have
never seen boneless sardines here.
Nicky - 26 May 2008 20:46 GMT
>It seems that bones in sardines and salmon (canned) is more an Oz/NZ thing.
>From what I gather most canned sardines in the US is boneless whereas I have
>never seen boneless sardines here.

They come as standard in ours, too.

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.6%  BMI 25
Tiger_Lily - 26 May 2008 20:58 GMT
>> It seems that bones in sardines and salmon (canned) is more an Oz/NZ thing.
>>From what I gather most canned sardines in the US is boneless whereas I have
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> D&E, 100ug thyroxine
> Last A1c 5.6%  BMI 25
bones in here as well (Canada)

Signature

kate
type 1 since 1987
www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.diabetes-support.org.uk/newly%20diagnosed.html

MI - 26 May 2008 23:22 GMT
On 5/26/08 3:06 AM, in article 69vgedF351e2qU1@mid.individual.net, "Ozgirl"
<are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote:

>>> Thanks those who have sorted me out about fibre.
>>> Just have another question please.
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> From what I gather most canned sardines in the US is boneless whereas I have
> never seen boneless sardines here.

Not just Oz/NZ. In Canada you can buy sardines both ways, though with bones
is commoner. Salmon always have bones and we catch, can, and send them all
over the world.

Signature

Martha T2 Canada
1500mg. Metformin, 4mg. Avandia

W. Baker - 28 May 2008 15:13 GMT
: >> Thanks those who have sorted me out about fibre.
: >> Just have another question please.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
: > I loved ozgirls answers. She hit the nail on the head with fish where
: > one eats the bones. Canned sardines and salmon fit that category well.

: It seems that bones in sardines and salmon (canned) is more an Oz/NZ thing.
: From what I gather most canned sardines in the US is boneless whereas I have
: never seen boneless sardines here.

Here, in NYC you can get both with and without bones, so I choose the ones
with the bones.

Wendy
Quentin Grady - 26 May 2008 10:55 GMT
>Thanks those who have sorted me out about fibre.
>Just have another question please.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Am  grateful for your help

G'day G'day David,

Thought I might Google to find out what said back a few years.  
Here is something of interest relevant to your question. I've added to
it.

The book "The Okinawa Program" by the brothers Wilcox and Suzuki gives
some comparison.  Here is a simplified list

                         % absorption
Tofu                            31
Orange juice                 31
Soy milk                      31
Milk                             32
yoghurt                        32
Cheddar                        32
soy bean dried           16
Kale                             59
Broccoli                       61
Cabbage                      53
Spinach                        5

Maybe you're like me and surprised broccoli, kale and cabbage have
such good absorption rates.  Its one of the great features of ASD, we
get to check things out and revise what we know when new comers ask
questions. It too easy to think broccoli, kale and cabbage might be
like spinach. Clearly they are not and this is important.

Its the oxalic acid in spinach that reduces the calcium absorption so
dramatically.  This is such an important factor that plant breeders
have bred oxalic acid free spinach.  Great if you are a gardener and
can buy the seed.  Unfortunately I've never seen it sold.

They say one can guess the oxalic acid content by the "fuzzy" feeling
when you taste it.  Do I believe it can be done?  
Frankly I've never noticed it perhaps others can.

It seems to me there are at least four factors to consider with
calcium sources.

1.  % calcium in food.

2.  % absorption

3.  reasonable serving size.

4.  effect on blood pH.  

There are those that hypothesize slight changes in blood pH make
profound differences to bone density after several decades.  For this
reason I'd like to know more about fresh figs.  Fig seem to have a
high calcium level for a fruit and I once read a table that suggested
they raised blood pH significantly compared to other common foods.  

On a lighter note, to see how diets really stack up against one
another one could do worse than test them under survival conditions as
occurred with the Roman gladiators.  The strong men were referred to a
barley men.  

The gladiators were allocated figs as an important part
of their diet.  Was this early blood doping?  

A slightly more alkaline blood would give the gladiator the ability to
absorb more carbon dioxide much like doping horses with sodium
bicarbonate "milk shakes."

Now since exercise it number one when it comes to living with T2
diabetes perhaps you could try a fig or two.  Remember though that
they tend to bump up blood glucose fiercely. Test, test, test

Of course if you eat them before running this might not matter.

Best wishes,
Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

 
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