Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / May 2008
Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance
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Quentin Grady - 10 May 2008 08:56 GMT G'day G'day Folks,
I came across a magazine article suggesting that ACE inhibitors could have significant effects making marked reductions in insulin resistance and all sorts of other ways. The good news is that ACE inhibitors have been around for a while so their side effects are well known. To find out more I decided to look up scholar.google.com
Indeed there was some rodent research suggesting that ACE inhibitors could have that virtue. The research though was 2002.
Has there been significant human studies since?
Best wishes,
 Signature Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading."
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Jefferson - 10 May 2008 19:19 GMT > G'day G'day Folks, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Has there been significant human studies since? Scholar.google works better for specific ACE inhibitors. "insulin resistance"+ramipril: 4,490 finds - http://tinyurl.com/6hs7ex. Using advanced scholar.google resulted in 2,820 finds from 2003 to 2008 - http://tinyurl.com/5qahgu. By adding diabetes to the advanced search there were still 2,730 finds - http://tinyurl.com/5hduhm.
One of those finds was "Adiponectin and adiponectin receptors in insulin resistance, diabetes, and the metabolic syndrome" - http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1483172
(Adiponectin secretion occurs from fat cells and a higher level is associated with less insulin resistance. Adiponectin also exists in 3 forms of which the higher density form is the most active. Weight reduction helps to increase adiponectin levels. The lab that my doctor uses does not have a test for adiponectin.)
The adiponectin article referenced "Koh K.K., et al. Vascular and metabolic effects of combined therapy with ramipril and simvastatin in patients with type 2 diabetes. Hypertension. 2005;45:1088–1093. [PubMed]" - http://hyper.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/45/6/1088
"Mechanisms underlying biological effects of statin and angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitor therapies differ. Therefore, we compared vascular and metabolic responses to these therapies either alone or in combination in patients with type 2 diabetes. ... Fifty patients with type 2 diabetes were given simvastatin 20 mg and placebo, simvastatin 20 mg and ramipril 10 mg, or ramipril 10 mg and placebo daily during each 2-month treatment period. Ramipril alone or combined therapy significantly reduced blood pressure when compared with simvastatin alone. When compared with ramipril alone, simvastatin alone or combined therapy significantly improved the lipoprotein profile. All 3 treatment arms significantly improved flow-mediated dilator response to hyperemia and reduced plasma levels of malondialdehyde relative to baseline measurements. However, these parameters were changed to a greater extent with combined therapy when compared with simvastatin or ramipril alone (P<0.001 by ANOVA). When compared with simvastatin or ramipril alone, combined therapy significantly reduced high-sensitivity C-reactive protein levels (P=0.004 by ANOVA). Interestingly, combined therapy or ramipril alone significantly increased plasma adiponectin levels and insulin sensitivity relative to baseline measurements. These changes were significantly greater than in the group treated with simvastatin alone (P<0.015 by ANOVA). Ramipril combined with simvastatin had beneficial vascular and metabolic effects when compared with monotherapy in patients with type 2 diabetes."
W. Baker - 10 May 2008 21:15 GMT In alt.support.diabetes Jefferson <Jefferson@comcast.net> wrote:
: > G'day G'day Folks, : > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] : By adding diabetes to the advanced search there were still 2,730 finds - : http://tinyurl.com/5hduhm. Just a small piece of informatioon. I was just informed that Ramiprill is now avalable generic. As it is is early days yet, the cost has not come down a ton, but after some months, when several generic makers will be able to compete, it shoudl get even better in price. Formerly, this was Altace.
Wendy
willbill - 11 May 2008 04:15 GMT > In alt.support.diabetes Jefferson <Jefferson@comcast.net> wrote:
> : > G'day G'day Folks, > : > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > : > inhibitors have been around for a while so their side effects are well > : > known. To find out more I decided to look up scholar.google.com sorry quentin, i've no clue about ACE and possible reduction of insulin resistance, since i'm a t1 and don't suffer from insulin resistance
> Just a small piece of informatioon. I was just informed that Ramiprill is > now avalable generic. As it is is early days yet, the cost has not come [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Wendy thank you VERY MUCH for the ref on *generic* ramipril. :)
fwiw, pull down the 20 page pdf at: www.consumerreports.org/health/resources/pdf/best-buy-drugs/ACEI.pdf
page 10 (of 20) is the one that gets my eye for ramipril
i'm currently using Wal-Mart's generic enalapril at a very attractive yearly price, with almost no cough side effect (very minor for me, and at most once a week)
i'll get my doc to write me a script for ramipril, than keep asking at two different pharmacies, until the price comes down (it took something like 9-to-12 months for the price of generic simvastatin to really come down)
i hope i don't get a cough with ramipril (i did with Accupril(generic=quinipril))
do you know if it is ok to split ramipril pills?
bill t1 since '57
W. Baker - 11 May 2008 16:13 GMT In alt.support.diabetes willbill <trek@worldwide.net> wrote:
: > In alt.support.diabetes Jefferson <Jefferson@comcast.net> wrote:
: > : > G'day G'day Folks, : > : > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : > : > inhibitors have been around for a while so their side effects are well : > : > known. To find out more I decided to look up scholar.google.com
: sorry quentin, i've no clue about ACE : and possible reduction of insulin resistance, : since i'm a t1 and don't suffer from : insulin resistance
: > Just a small piece of informatioon. I was just informed that Ramiprill is : > now avalable generic. As it is is early days yet, the cost has not come [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : > : > Wendy
: thank you VERY MUCH for the ref on *generic* ramipril. :)
: fwiw, pull down the 20 page pdf at: : www.consumerreports.org/health/resources/pdf/best-buy-drugs/ACEI.pdf
: page 10 (of 20) is the one that gets my eye : for ramipril
: i'm currently using Wal-Mart's generic enalapril : at a very attractive yearly price, with almost : no cough side effect (very minor for me, and at : most once a week)
: i'll get my doc to write me a script for ramipril, : than keep asking at two different pharmacies, : until the price comes down (it took something : like 9-to-12 months for the price of generic : simvastatin to really come down)
: i hope i don't get a cough with ramipril : (i did with Accupril(generic=quinipril))
: do you know if it is ok to split ramipril pills?
: bill t1 since '57 MIne are little capsules, so impossible to split. I don'tknow the form of the generic yet as I am still working on my 3 month supple of Altace, which I know comes in 5 and 10mg capsules. It may well com ein other forms, but I don't know.
Wendy
Màck©® - 13 May 2008 02:41 GMT >> In alt.support.diabetes Jefferson <Jefferson@comcast.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >since i'm a t1 and don't suffer from >insulin resistance that doesn't mean other type 1s don't have to deal with insulin resistance.
 Signature Måck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt
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"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins
DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... .
willbill - 13 May 2008 05:50 GMT >> sorry quentin, i've no clue about ACE >> and possible reduction of insulin resistance, >> since i'm a t1 and don't suffer from >> insulin resistance
> that doesn't mean other type 1s don't have to deal with > insulin resistance. kindly provide an approximate percentage of type 1s that do have insulin resistance
and give a cite/site while you're at it
= = = = =
out of curiosity, do *you* have insulin resistance?
bill g1 since '57
Nicky - 13 May 2008 17:30 GMT >>> sorry quentin, i've no clue about ACE >>> and possible reduction of insulin resistance, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >and give a cite/site while you're at it Surely all you T1s get it as you get older? I'm assuming that it's a big part of the 20% less calories needed as a woman goes through menopause - a purely age-related thing, as our bodies get less efficient.
Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 100ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25
willbill - 15 May 2008 01:23 GMT >>>> sorry quentin, i've no clue about ACE >>>> and possible reduction of insulin resistance, >>>> since i'm a t1 and don't suffer from >>>> insulin resistance
>>> that doesn't mean other type 1s don't have to deal with >>> insulin resistance.
>> kindly provide an approximate percentage >> of type 1s that do have insulin resistance >> >> and give a cite/site while you're at it
> Surely all you T1s get it as you get older? no we don't
at least, i haven't, and it's clear to me, from t1 Màck©®'s cute response, that he doesn't suffer from IR either
you have to read t1 coughran's response (to me) carefully, to understand that t1's who have insulin resistance (IR) are a minority (well less than 49%) of the total t1 population
fwiw, my hunch is that t1 coughran also does not suffer from insulin resistance (but i don't know that for sure)
it remains unclear to me, just what percent of the total t1 population suffers from IR
fwiw, already my own doc is suggesting t2 pills to me!! confirming to me, that while docs do a lot of reading, they aren't that smart at seeing the forest (i am a very good system analayst, and see the forest just fine)
bill t1 since '57
p.s. for definitions of IR and other terms (in t1 coughran's response), www.wikipedia.org is your friend
fwiw, my '08 Britannica has this quote:
<"It seems likely that there are two distinct causes for IDDM and NIDDM. A genetic factor appears to be more important in NIDDM, since analysis of a large series of identical twins has shown a concordance (the appearance of the trait) in both twins of more than 90 percent for NIDDM, while in IDDM the rate is about 50 percent. This relatively low incidence of the disease among the identical twins of insulin-dependent diabetics suggests that other factors are important.">
> I'm assuming that it's a > big part of the 20% less calories needed as a woman goes through [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > D&E, 100ug thyroxine > Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25 Màck©® - 15 May 2008 06:37 GMT >no we don't > >at least, i haven't, and it's clear >to me, from t1 Màck©®'s cute response, >that he doesn't suffer from IR either so my endo lied to me?
 Signature Måck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt
(o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins
DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... .
willbill - 16 May 2008 07:52 GMT >> and it's clear >> to me, from t1 Màck©®'s cute response, >> that he doesn't suffer from IR either
> so my endo lied to me? so what drug(s) does he have you taking for that?
bill t1 since '57
Màck©® - 16 May 2008 09:30 GMT >>> and it's clear >>> to me, from t1 Màck©®'s cute response, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >bill t1 since '57 you really are a nutball.
Insulin, fool.
 Signature Måck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt
(o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins
DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... .
willbill - 16 May 2008 21:04 GMT >>>> and it's clear >>>> to me, from t1 Màck©®'s cute response, >>>> that he doesn't suffer from IR either
>>> so my endo lied to me?
>> so what drug(s) does he have >> you taking for that? >> >> bill t1 since '57
> you really are a nutball. > > Insulin, fool. ah, so your endo has told you that you have IR (Insulin Resistance), but you still only take insulin?
that's more than a little hard to believe
imo, you've got serious mental problems
and you almost never provide any useful info, and/or links, when prompted for those
plonk!
Màck©® - 17 May 2008 14:33 GMT >plonk! please, someone tell me this is actually true.
 Signature Måck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt
(o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins
DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... .
Màck©® - 13 May 2008 20:01 GMT >out of curiosity, do *you* have insulin resistance? > >bill g1 since '57 yep, whenever I get sick.
 Signature Måck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt
(o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins
DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... .
Charly Coughran - 14 May 2008 00:01 GMT >>> sorry quentin, i've no clue about ACE >>> and possible reduction of insulin resistance, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > bill g1 since '57 Attached are a few references in the order encountered in a quick search. The next to last one suggests insulin resistance (metabolic syndrome) occurs in 12-40% of type 1 diabetics, but it is a second tier journal at best. The last one which concludes, "The greatest effect of rosiglitazone occurred in subjects with more pronounced markers of insulin resistance", didn't have enough information, at least in a quick scan, to calculate a percentage.
Diabetes Metab Res Rev. 2002 May-Jun;18(3):192-200
Insulin resistance plays a larger role in the type 1 diabetes disease process than is commonly recognized. The onset of type 1 diabetes is often heralded by an antecedent illness and/or the onset of puberty, both conditions associated with insulin resistance. In the face of a damaged beta-cell and thus reduced insulin secretion, this change is enough to manifest hyperglycemia. During the first year of clinical disease, considerable evidence suggests that the occurrence of clinical remission or 'honeymoon period' is due to a temporary resolution of the insulin- resistant state present at diagnosis. Intensive diabetes management is associated with both improved insulin sensitivity and beta-cell function. This indicates that the historical data on the changes in insulin secretion post-diagnosis may be inappropriate when designing current studies. The known physiological relationship between beta-cell function and insulin sensitivity complicates interpretation of insulin secretion data obtained as part of prevention or intervention trials. While it is recommended that at least a subset of subjects participating in these trials undergo formal measurements of insulin sensitivity to evaluate effects of therapy on this parameter independent of effects on the beta- cell, the sample size must be sufficient to determine an effect if present. Finally, one could speculate that it is possible that subsets of people with mild manifestations of the type 1 autoimmune disease process could benefit from treatments aimed at improving the insulin-resistant state. Copyright 2002 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.
Diabetes Metab. 2001 Sep;27(4 Pt 2):S19-25.
Puberty is characterised by important physiological and hormonal changes. In type 1 diabetes, abnormalities in the growth hormone/insulin-like growth factor-1 (GH/IGF-1) axis play a important role. Spontaneous hyper- GH secretion arises, with reduced circulating IGF-1 levels, both leading to a reduction in insulin sensitivity. From a clinical point of view, these abnormalities are linked to a deterioration glycaemic control, often more marked in females (in whom the degree of insulin resistance during puberty seems to be higher). These abnormalities in the GH/IGF-1 axis in may constitute a risk for the development of microangiopathic complications. Optimisation of insulin therapy has practical limitations and intensification of insulin therapy poses problems (weight gain, nocturnal hypoglycaemia). Several alternative therapeutic approaches have been explored to restore insulin sensitivity, either through a direct effect on the GH/IGF-1 axis, or through drugs with a direct insulin sensitivity effect, but all these approaches remain to be confirmed and the safety and acceptability of these treatments to be established on a long-term basis.
Diabetes Obes Metab. 2007 Jan;9(1):143-5
AIM: As many overweight people with T1DM are insulin resistant, adjuvant therapy with insulin sensitising agents, such as metformin, may be beneficial. This study evaluated the effect of adjuvant metformin in T1DM on insulin sensitivity, diabetic control, body composition, quality of life (QOL) and treatment satisfaction. MATERIALS AND METHODS: A 3-month prospective open-labelled pilot study of 16 patients aged 18-40 with T1DM and body mass index (BMI) >25 kg/m(2) was performed. The patients received 500-850 mg metformin twice daily. Insulin sensitivity, assessed by a frequently sampled intravenous glucose tolerance test [n=5], body composition, HbA(1c) and quality of life (QOL) were measured before and after treatment. A retrospective review of 30 patients with T1DM treated with metformin for at least 4 months was also performed. BMI, HbA(1c) and insulin requirements during metformin treatment was compared to pre- metformin data, and to patients treated with insulin only. RESULTS: In the pilot study, insulin sensitivity increased significantly from 0.86 +/- 0.33 x 10(-4)/min/(microU/ml) to 1.17 +/- 0.48 x 10(-4)/min/ (microU/ml) after 3 months adjuvant therapy (p = 0.043). This was associated with a decreased insulin requirement and mean daily blood glucose. There were no significant changes in HbA(1c) or body composition. QOL significantly improved (p < 0.002). The retrospective review revealed an initial reduction in HbA(1c) (0.8 +/- 1.4%, p = 0.001). This effect diminished with prolonged treatment. BMI decreased in patients remaining on metformin for a 2-year period (0.5 +/- 0.5kg/m(2), p = 0.042). CONCLUSION: Adjuvant metformin can improve QOL, insulin sensitivity and glycaemic control in overweight adults with T1DM.
Arq Bras Endocrinol Metabol. 2006 Apr;50(2):250-63. Epub 2006 May 23
Insulin resistance (IR) plays a larger role in the type 1 diabetes mellitus (T1DM) disease process than commonly recognized. Overweight and physical inactivity have increased steadily for the last 20-30 years in children and adolescents in many populations, concurrently with a rising incidence of T1DM. The role of IR in T1DM has only recently been gaining acceptance. This review will focus on how IR influences our current understanding of disease development and metabolic syndrome (MS) in T1DM. Increases in IR by weight gain and sedentarism, associated to decreased beta cell mass by autoimmune process, may disrupt normoglycemia in pre- T1DM individuals. IR may reflect a more aggressive form of autoimmune disease mediated by immuno-inflammatory factors that also mediate beta cell destruction (TNF-alpha and IL-6). These concepts are included in the "accelerator hypothesis". Moreover, family history of T2DM and chronic hyperglycemia (glucotoxicity), occurring after T1DM diagnosis, contribute to decrease peripheral glucose uptake. The onset of diabetic nephropathy (DN) might also contribute to IR and metabolic syndrome (MS) via low- grade inflammation and increased oxidative stress. MS is found between 12 to 40% in T1DM, especially in patients with advanced DN and poor glycemic control. These findings have therapeutic and cardiovascular prognostic implications as children make the transition toward adolescence and young adulthood T1DM.
Diabetes Care. 2005 Jul;28(7):1562-7.Click here to read
OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the safety and effectiveness of rosiglitazone in the treatment of overweight subjects with type 1 diabetes. RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS: A total of 50 adult type 1 diabetic subjects with a baseline BMI > or =27 kg/m(2) were randomly assigned in a double-blind fashion to take insulin and placebo (n = 25) or insulin and rosiglitazone 4 mg twice daily (n = 25) for a period of 8 months. Insulin regimen and dosage were modified in all subjects to achieve near-normal glycemic control. RESULTS: Both groups experienced a significant reduction in HbA (1c) (A1C) level (rosiglitazone: 7.9 +/- 1.3 to 6.9 +/- 0.7%, P < 0.0001; placebo: 7.7 +/- 0.8 to 7.0 +/- 0.9%, P = 0.002) and a significant increase in weight (rosiglitazone: 97.2 +/- 11.8 to 100.6 +/- 16.0 kg, P = 0.008; placebo: 96.4 +/- 12.2 to 99.1 +/- 15.0, P = 0.016). Baseline measures of BMI (P = 0.001), total daily insulin dose (P = 0.002), total cholesterol (P = 0.005), HDL cholesterol (P = 0.001), and LDL cholesterol (P = 0.02) were predictors of improvement in A1C level only in the group treated with rosiglitazone. Total daily insulin dose increased in subjects taking placebo (74.0 +/- 33.8 to 82.0 +/- 48.9 units, P < 0.05 baseline vs. week 32), but it decreased slightly in subjects taking rosiglitazone (77.5 +/- 28.6 to 75.3 +/- 33.1 units). Both systolic blood pressure (137.4 +/- 15.6 vs. 128.8 +/- 14.8 mmHg, baseline vs. week 32, P < 0.02) and diastolic blood pressure (87.2 +/- 9.4 vs. 79.4 +/- 7.2 mmHg, P < 0.0001) improved in the group treated with rosiglitazone. The total incidence of hypoglycemia did not differ between groups. CONCLUSIONS: Rosiglitazone in combination with insulin resulted in improved glycemic control and blood pressure without an increase in insulin requirements, compared with insulin- and placebo-treated subjects, whose improved glycemic control required an 11% increase in insulin dose. Weight gain and hypoglycemia were similar in both groups at the end of the study. The greatest effect of rosiglitazone occurred in subjects with more pronounced markers of insulin resistance.
 Signature ------- Charly Coughran ccoughran@DELETE-TO-RESPOND-UCSD.EDU
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 16 May 2008 20:58 GMT > > G'day G'day Folks, > > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > forms of which the higher density form is the most active. Weight > reduction helps to increase adiponectin levels. Specifically, it is VAT (black fat) loss that increases adiponectin levels.
Adiponectin does make us hungrier.
Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be euglycemic...
Prayerfully in the awesome name of LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <>< -- http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3558812d72ab4e17?
Trinkwasser - 11 May 2008 22:55 GMT >G'day G'day Folks, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Has there been significant human studies since? I've seen it mentioned in several papers which I've downloaded as pdfs and am now reading/rereading, also with ARBs but the effect is generally small, as with a lot of other things a fraction of what you can achieve through diet and exercise
Chris Malcolm - 18 May 2008 12:02 GMT >>G'day G'day Folks, >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >>Has there been significant human studies since?
> I've seen it mentioned in several papers which I've downloaded as pdfs > and am now reading/rereading, also with ARBs but the effect is > generally small, as with a lot of other things a fraction of what you > can achieve through diet and exercise I guess until they come up with an exercise pill we'll just have to go on using our muscles. They don't seem to having much success with the diet pill either, so we'll just have to go on watching what we eat. They do seem to have a good bit of success with pills for having fun. Shame that most of them are illegal :-)
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Trinkwasser - 18 May 2008 19:18 GMT >>>G'day G'day Folks, >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >eat. They do seem to have a good bit of success with pills for having >fun. Shame that most of them are illegal :-) And becoming more so. :(
The nearest equivalent to an exercise pill I suppose would be metformin - or if it works as it does for me ALA - which causes the same amount of exercise to have more effect.
For diet pill you can simply substitute diet . . .
Chuck - 16 May 2008 10:00 GMT > Has there been significant human studies since? Yes, ARB's do the same. These meds also have antioxidant and antiinflammatory properties... also possible reduction in adipogenesis. If you are diabetic with hypertension you want to be on one of these two, not a beta-blocker, et al (unless there is a heart (the actual organ) reason). CB
Trinkwasser - 16 May 2008 19:51 GMT >> Has there been significant human studies since? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >one of these two, not a beta-blocker, et al (unless there is a heart >(the actual organ) reason). One of the relevant studies was DREAM which compared Ramipril (ACE) and Rosiglitazone on prediabetics
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673606694208/abstract
et al.
somehow I have obtained pdfs of some of the papers
Quentin Grady - 17 May 2008 05:33 GMT >> Has there been significant human studies since? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >(the actual organ) reason). >CB Thanks Chuck. Although the research I saw quoted was on mice the results were impressive and worth considering.
Best wishes,
 Signature Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading."
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Chuck - 17 May 2008 09:22 GMT > Thanks Chuck. �Although the research I saw quoted was on mice the > results were impressive and worth considering. > > Best wishes, > -- > Quentin Grady � � � You are welcome. There are now plenty of studies in humans on this subject. I'm fortunate that I have a job where I have to keep my nose in the medical research journals. In addition, I have a family history of diabetes and predilection myself towards metabolic syndrome. I take low dose Micardis (ARB) and Red Yeast Rice (OTC statin cholesterol reducer) with good results. (exercise like crazy and watch my diet, of course). No doubt that breaking that cycle of inflammation, oxidation, glycation....... is important in diabetes. ACE's or ARB's (I prefer ARB's) can be a key part of that. Glad to have helped. CB
Quentin Grady - 18 May 2008 10:02 GMT >> Thanks Chuck. ?Although the research I saw quoted was on mice the >> results were impressive and worth considering. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >subject. I'm fortunate that I have a job where I have to keep my nose >in the medical research journals. G'day G'day Chuck,
I can appreciate what a privilege that must be. My job enables me to read New Scientist in the tertiary institute library. Now that is not the same as having access to medical journals.
>In addition, I have a family history >of diabetes and predilection myself towards metabolic syndrome. I take [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >ARB's) can be a key part of that. Glad to have helped. >CB I'm told ARBs are an improvement but more expensive.
Best wishes and thanks.
 Signature Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading."
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
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