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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / March 2008

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Type of excercise and time of day

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ItoTito - 07 Mar 2008 18:11 GMT
Exercise plays a big role in controlling my weight and T2.
I do aerobic because I like it most. I do resistance (weight training)
because I was told that muscle mass helps with insulin sensitivity.

I also have significant dawn phenomenen and am wondering if my excercise
habit and schedule is not making it worst.

I run every morning before breakfast (45-50 minutes) and lift weights 3
times a week at noon.

Usually my levels will drop slightly immediately after my run, but then they
seem to rise soon afterwards. I am wondering if I am not forcing my liver to
produce more sugar when my heart rate goes up. During the excercise I
probably consume some of this glucose, but since I am quite insulin
resistant in the morning  I am producing more than I am burning.

I was wondering if maybe I should do the resistance training (weights) early
in the morning and run at noon.
I believe Bernstein claimed resistance training increased immediate insulin
sensivity quite a bit. I don't think it has the effect of telling my liver
to produce more sugar like I think aerobic is doing.

I know I need to expirement, but my body never reacts the same way two days
in a row, so figuring out a pattern is difficult. I will continue trying.

Other people's experiences and opinions may help me narrow down the best
type of excercise and time of day to do it.

Thanks

Ito
ray - 07 Mar 2008 18:34 GMT
> Exercise plays a big role in controlling my weight and T2. I do aerobic
> because I like it most. I do resistance (weight training) because I was
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Ito

It seems to help me if I do some exercise in the evening - after dinner.
YMMV.
Paul L - 07 Mar 2008 19:58 GMT
> Exercise plays a big role in controlling my weight and T2.
> I do aerobic because I like it most. I do resistance (weight training)
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Ito

Hi Ito ... I rarely eat much if anything before 10AM.    Exercise in the
AM sends my bg up so my exercise schedule is now dictated by
my particular T2 clock ... I exercise shortly after eating lunch.  I
did some heavy snow shoveling the other morning and my bg
went from 100 fasting at wakeup to about 130 after shoveling
snow.  My preferred time to exercise was always after work and
before dinner but that no longer works as I will go low.   My schedule
is what it needs to be for me, so that is now my routine.  I think
it would work equally well to exercise after dinner but that doesn't
fit my schedule.

cheers

Paul
ItoTito - 07 Mar 2008 21:24 GMT
Thanks Paul,

Did you ever experiment with different types of excercise i.e aerobic vs
resistance ?

>> Exercise plays a big role in controlling my weight and T2.
>> I do aerobic because I like it most. I do resistance (weight training)
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> Paul
Paul L - 07 Mar 2008 21:31 GMT
> Thanks Paul,
>
> Did you ever experiment with different types of excercise i.e aerobic vs
> resistance ?

I was totally aerobic until about 8 months ago and now I try
to get a good mix between the two.  My goal is a six pack but
I'm about 4 1/2 short   :-)  ... It is nothing short of astonishing
what increased ab strength has done for my low back.  I'll be
patient for the stunning visuals to appear  .... ahem.

cheers

Paul
hemyd - 07 Mar 2008 22:51 GMT
> Exercise plays a big role in controlling my weight and T2.
> I do aerobic because I like it most. I do resistance (weight training)
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Ito

Ever since diagnosis of Type 2 in 1995 I have always had this "liver dump"
thingy - where I both had high fbg, and often exercise would result in my bg
going up instead of down. Or, as in your case, it WOULD go down, but then
started bouncing up again! Now, at the age of 60, I have a heavy schedule of
commuting to work on my bicycle almost daily, a round trip of 25 kilometres.
Although I am quite certain that in the long term this has a beneficial
effect on my bg, it doesn't seem to be in the short term. I am just as
likely to get a specific bg reading after not having ridden as after having
ridden.

I do believe timing is very important. Having started my commuting, I would
ride almost immediately after having had breakfast. At the end of the ride
I'd get a spike. And the spike would persist for hours! Another poster,
Beavis, suggested I wait an hour after eating before cycling, and that did
it! The theory was - when I have breakfast, the bg from eating might not
start increasing for at least 45 minutes. If I start riding before then, my
liver thinks "hey, this fellow is active, and his bg needs boosting", then
the liver pumps glucose into my bloodstream. At the end of my ride, my bg
has gone up. Then the food also kicks in, and the bg goes up even further.

Even now, if I ride immediately after eating, I can be assured of a massive
liver dump. Every time. Strangely, there are other factors which may
influence my bg. For instance - when I ride to work during the week, a
dangerous exercise, as I ride on the highway in peak hour traffic - the
effect of the riding on my bg is minimal. However when I ride on a bike path
during the weekend, with vastly less traffic, then the bg lowering effect of
the ride is a lot more. This is even when having eaten a much larger
breakfast than the meagre single slice of MG toast I have each morning, and
despite me riding not more than half an hour after eating. Is it adrenalin
affecting my bg?

Of course I am basing all the above on my own observations, as I have not
researched the matter. I am happy to accept opinions and corrections to my
theories by anyone who has researched it deeply.

Henry Mydlarz
(19,000 kilometres of bicycle commuting since 2005)
itotito - 07 Mar 2008 23:13 GMT
>> Exercise plays a big role in controlling my weight and T2.
>> I do aerobic because I like it most. I do resistance (weight training)
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
> Henry Mydlarz
> (19,000 kilometres of bicycle commuting since 2005)

This makes a lot of sense.

I am going to try the wait 1 hour trick. I suspect that will make a
difference. This was one of my experiments to try and since you said it
works for you, it just jumped to the front of the queue. I do want to
try resistance training vs aerobic as well. An elevated heart rate is
what kicks off the liver dump I believe. The muscle usage is what lowers
the glucose levels.

I suspect that if my breakfast causes my BG to raise until say 7.8 or 8
insulin production will kick in. If when insulin production kicks in and
I am excercising, the insulin will be better utilized.

My theory is that right now, my insulin production at a BG level of
about 7 is low. ACtaully I know it's low, because when they did my OGTT
they saw at fasting it was low even though my BG level was 6.6. My
insulin production only picked up at the 1 hour mark when the glucose
had fully kicked in.

If I had to guess on what causes the difference in traffic, I'd say
stress and cortisol. Stress will raise cortisol levels which causes
insulin resistance.
hemyd - 08 Mar 2008 07:58 GMT
>>> Exercise plays a big role in controlling my weight and T2.
>>> I do aerobic because I like it most. I do resistance (weight training)
[quoted text clipped - 90 lines]
> and cortisol. Stress will raise cortisol levels which causes insulin
> resistance.

I have often though that trying to work out exactly what is happening, and
trying to work out exactly what effect a certain diet and a certain type of
exercise will have at a certain time of day, is like trying to play chess
with your body. For instance: I have always had a high fbg - rarely below 7,
often as high as 9! this was irrespective what diet I tried (I do observe a
vastly reduced carb intake), and no matter at what time in the evning I
tried to have whichever snack. At one stage I tried having a zero carb
breakfast to reduce post-breakfast spikes, and all it seemed to achieve was
to gradually increase my following fbg. Lantus killed the high fbg problem,
as well as lowered my HbA1c from the high 6s, to mid 5s.

Henry Mydlarz
ItoTito - 11 Mar 2008 13:42 GMT
>>> I do believe timing is very important. Having started my commuting, I
>>> would ride almost immediately after having had breakfast. At the end of
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>>> have each morning, and despite me riding not more than half an hour
>>> after eating. Is it adrenalin affecting my bg?

I need to try this a few more times, but it seemed to make a big difference.

I ate a bowl of high fiber cereal (23g carbs, 13g fibre) and waited 45
minutes. It caused my BF to spike to 156 after 45 minutes. I did my running
and it dropped to 84. 45 minutes after that it was 93 and stable. Before
when excercising without a meal it could go as high as 135 after excercise
and stay there for a while.

I will try and bring that 156 spike down a bit. I may have overdid the carbs
a little.

Thanks for the tip, I need to confirm this a few times, but there is some
hope I can continue to excercise in the morning, which is the most
convenient for me.
hemyd - 11 Mar 2008 21:31 GMT
>>>> I do believe timing is very important. Having started my commuting, I
>>>> would ride almost immediately after having had breakfast. At the end of
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> hope I can continue to excercise in the morning, which is the most
> convenient for me.

I eat a small slice of low carb bread (24g per 100g) with cheese. I figure
this is just enough to "trick" my liver into not giving me a spike when I go
for my bike ride to work 45 minutes later, but also it is not enough carbs
to spike me on its own before I go on my bike ride. (I hope you can work out
what I'm trying to say - woke up with a headache. Braincells still not
functioning.....)

No bike ride for me today. I'm waiting for my clinic to open and I'll have a
whole lot of routine tests, including fbg. Last year at the clinic, having
waited a long time to get the tests done, I was starving hungry afterwards.
I had what I thought was a modest breakfast at a local cafe, then rode to
work 15 minutes after. I had this "spike from hell" when I arrived at work.
It kept the bg up for hours afterwards. It was then I decided I would not
ride when having these tests done.

Henry Mydlarz
Chris Malcolm - 09 Mar 2008 11:53 GMT
In alt.support.diabetes itotito <itotito@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> I do believe timing is very important. Having started my commuting, I would
>> ride almost immediately after having had breakfast. At the end of the ride
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> the liver pumps glucose into my bloodstream. At the end of my ride, my bg
>> has gone up. Then the food also kicks in, and the bg goes up even further.

> This makes a lot of sense.

> I am going to try the wait 1 hour trick. I suspect that will make a
> difference. This was one of my experiments to try and since you said it
> works for you, it just jumped to the front of the queue.

I found that a pause of half an hour after eating was enough to
prevent an exercise-induced liver dump when doing everyday commuting
or shopping cycling.

Signature

Chris Malcolm        cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk              DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 09 Mar 2008 13:48 GMT
> >> I do believe timing is very important. Having started my commuting, I would
> >> ride almost immediately after having had breakfast. At the end of the ride
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> prevent an exercise-induced liver dump when doing everyday commuting
> or shopping cycling.

From a cardiovascular/physiological perspective, exercising before
ones GI tract has finished digesting and absorbing macronutrients is
sub-optimal.

The loss of tight glucose control (what you are calling liver dump)
would be consistent with this less than optimal situation.

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be euglycemic:

http://TheWellnessFoundation.com/BeHealthy

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Brethren of the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
http://HeartMDPhD.com/ChristianBrethren
Trinkwasser - 09 Mar 2008 19:52 GMT
>> Exercise plays a big role in controlling my weight and T2.
>> I do aerobic because I like it most. I do resistance (weight training)
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> I run every morning before breakfast (45-50 minutes) and lift weights 3
>> times a week at noon.

Yes that could very well be significant, something including
"sufficient" carbs (which your meter will helpfully dictate) before
the run should help.

>> Usually my levels will drop slightly immediately after my run, but then
>> they seem to rise soon afterwards. I am wondering if I am not forcing my
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>the liver pumps glucose into my bloodstream. At the end of my ride, my bg
>has gone up. Then the food also kicks in, and the bg goes up even further.

Yes it's like a busted thermostat, doesn't turn the heat on until it
gets far too cold then doesn't turn it off either.

>Even now, if I ride immediately after eating, I can be assured of a massive
>liver dump. Every time. Strangely, there are other factors which may
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>researched the matter. I am happy to accept opinions and corrections to my
>theories by anyone who has researched it deeply.

Well I can only agree, in *my* case: I don't get DP as such but any
form of exertion in the morning would tend to drive just such a liver
dump *unless* I first got my BG up around 6 (110) which would kill it.
Later in the day this just does not occur.

So like you I'd eat my usual 15g breakfast carbs, wait a while, then
follow up with something slow like an oatcake and almond butter, then
do whatever, and add further stuff like ryebread and butter or
oatcakes and cheese to feed further glucose in slowly.

That's the B answer, the A answer is not exerting myself until the
afternoon when the system is more predictable.

Also since using the ALA this phenomenon has been tamed somewhat, to
the extent I can work myself into genuine lows if not complete hypos.
Nicky - 07 Mar 2008 23:02 GMT
>I was wondering if maybe I should do the resistance training (weights) early
>in the morning and run at noon.

Personally, I don't do anything before about 11am if I can help it; I
generally do something aerobic after lunch, and weights or karate
after supper.

I developed that routine when I was getting liver dumps from hell;
they're much less of an issue now, and I can do exercise in the
morning if I have to, but a dump is still a risk if I overdo it. I
don't like going high for any reason, even a good one like exercise,
and if I can avoid the issue by rescheduling, I will.

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.6%  BMI 25
hemyd - 08 Mar 2008 07:52 GMT
>>I was wondering if maybe I should do the resistance training (weights)
>>early
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> D&E, 100ug thyroxine
> Last A1c 5.6%  BMI 25

I've also always been prone to those "liver dumps from hell". Years ago I
came to the conclusion that any exercise I did, even if not actually
counter-productive, was definitely more effective when done in the late
afternoon. Unfortunately in my current cycling in to work type of exercise,
to be able to ride in the afternoon (ride home) I first have to ride to work
in the morning.

Henry Mydlarz
 
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