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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / March 2008Help requested and provided
Some background. I am T2 although I control it pretty well. My 1ac is 5.1%, BMI 22 and low body fat. I excercise a lot and watch my diet. I do eat carbs but only low GI and I try to get 30% of my diet from protein, 40% from carbs and 30% from fat. The only time of day I have trouble is in the morning. My FBG was 6.8 and I started using Apple Cider Vinegar Tablets at night and it made a big difference. It' now about 5.5-5.8. This is pretty good, and others may wish to try. It's been a week now of consistent results. I will post on the progess. This will be my contribution for now, I hope it helps others. I do one glass of dry red whine, 2 tablets and a piece of cheese before bed. Now for the help requested I seem to be very insulin resistant in the morning (all the way up to noon) and almost normal late afternoon/night. For example, if I do a 75mg glucose load at 10:30 AM, after 2 hours, I'll be 13 or 14. If I do the same thing at 4PM, I'll be at 8 At 11AM, my level was 5.5. I ate a granola bar and one hour later it was at 10. Same, granola bar, I ate at 5PM, with a level of 5. I went to 6 in an hour. I suspect the vinegar tablets are helping my morning liver dumps. But I think I am still very insulin resistant in the morning. If I can figure this out, I think I can control this thing even more. Right now, I avoid all carbs in the morning and do my excercise then to get my levels down. If I'm at 6.8 I go for a run and it drops to 6.1 I would prefer to eat my correct ratios of carbs/proteins all day. Could it be cortisol levels, GH ...any ideas ? PS : Although my 1ac was 5.3 and FBG 6.8 at the time, the dr put me on met. It did nothing. Didn't help my 1ac, FBG or OGTT. I told him I was getting of it and dropped down t to 5.1 without meds. > Some background. I am T2 although I control it pretty well. My 1ac is > 5.1%, BMI 22 and low body fat. I excercise a lot and watch my diet. I [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > met. It did nothing. Didn't help my 1ac, FBG or OGTT. I told him I was > getting of it and dropped down t to 5.1 without meds. Higher insulin resistance in the morning is not uncommon by any means. Consequently, many on ASD must tailor each meal to what the body can handle--usually fewer carbs in the morning and more in the afternoon/evening. You've got an excellent handle on managing your BG. Your A1c is great, and you know what foods to avoid in the AM, in order to keep your BG under control. Excellent! I am envious of the fact that you can eat that granola bar in the evening. I can't do that at any time. Sometimes we just have to put up with the quirks of our body. Best regards, Michelle C., T2 diet & exercise > Some background. I am T2 although I control it pretty well. My 1ac is > 5.1%, BMI 22 and low body fat. I excercise a lot and watch my diet. I [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > met. It did nothing. Didn't help my 1ac, FBG or OGTT. I told him I was > getting of it and dropped down t to 5.1 without meds. most of us are more carb resistant in the morning to counter act this, we eat less carbs for breakfast the idea is to eat well thru the day, not specifically in one meal heavens, even day to day variations are allowed, as long as the overall week looks good (my son's pediatrician told me to look at the kidlet's diet over a week to ensure it has the components it needs) good luck (oh, and yes, the vinegar trick does work to lower bg levels) > Some background. I am T2 although I control it pretty well. My 1ac is > 5.1%, BMI 22 and low body fat. I excercise a lot and watch my diet. I [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Could it be cortisol levels, GH ...any ideas ? More likely your insulin resistance is happening because of your having visceral adipose tissue (VAT) especially if you have been overeating. It remains smarter to eat less, down to the right amount: http://HeartMDPhD.com/BeSmart Hunger is wonderful: http://HeartMDPhD.com/Hunger Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be euglycemic... be blessed: http://TheWellnessFoundation.com/BeHealthy Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Swordbearer for the KING of kings and LORD of lords. http://HeartMDPhD.com/Sword re:> euglycemic. Hallelujah > re:> euglycemic. > > Hallelujah Hunger is wonderful: http://HeartMDPhD.com/Hunger http://HeartMDPhD.com/BeHungry Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be euglycemic... be blessed: http://TheWellnessFoundation.com/BeHealthy Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Swordbearer for the KING of kings and LORD of lords. http://HeartMDPhD.com/Sword : Some background. I am T2 although I control it pretty well. My 1ac is : 5.1%, BMI 22 and low body fat. I excercise a lot and watch my diet. I : do eat carbs but only low GI and I try to get 30% of my diet from : protein, 40% from carbs and 30% from fat. : The only time of day I have trouble is in the morning. : My FBG was 6.8 and I started using Apple Cider Vinegar Tablets at : night and it made a big difference. It' now about 5.5-5.8. This is : pretty good, and others may wish to try. It's been a week now of : consistent results. I will post on the progess. This will be my : contribution for now, I hope it helps others. I do one glass of dry : red whine, 2 tablets and a piece of cheese before bed. : Now for the help requested : I seem to be very insulin resistant in the morning (all the way up to : noon) and almost normal late afternoon/night. : For example, if I do a 75mg glucose load at 10:30 AM, after 2 hours, : I'll be 13 or 14. If I do the same thing at 4PM, I'll be at 8 : At 11AM, my level was 5.5. I ate a granola bar and one hour later it : was at 10. : Same, granola bar, I ate at 5PM, with a level of 5. I went to 6 in an : hour. : I suspect the vinegar tablets are helping my morning liver dumps. But : I think I am still very insulin resistant in the morning. If I can : figure this out, I think I can control this thing even more. Right : now, I avoid all carbs in the morning and do my excercise then to get : my levels down. If I'm at 6.8 I go for a run and it drops to 6.1 : I would prefer to eat my correct ratios of carbs/proteins all day. : Could it be cortisol levels, GH ...any ideas ? : PS : Although my 1ac was 5.3 and FBG 6.8 at the time, the dr put me on : met. It did nothing. Didn't help my 1ac, FBG or OGTT. I told him I was : getting of it and dropped down t to 5.1 without meds. Essentially don't eat as any carbs at the time your resistance is high. For most of us that is breakfast and the morning, so we eat very low carb at that time of day. Later, say at dinner, we can eat more carbs wihut spiking, ust like you do with teh granola bars-big spike in eh AM and little rise in the late afterneen. Adjusting your eating patterns will help here. Wendy >For example, if I do a 75mg glucose load at 10:30 AM, after 2 hours, >I'll be 13 or 14. If I do the same thing at 4PM, I'll be at 8 My simple suggestion is - don't do a 75mg glucose load at 10:30 AM. Or even a 15gm load at breakfast. My mornings were like yours. I limit myself to <10gms at breakfast and <15gms at lunch; snacks mid-morning are <5gms. I can add much larger carb portions from mid-afternoon into the evening, but not mornings. Try this for some alternative breakfast ideas: http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/2006/10/breakfasts.html Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Latest: The Quality of ADA Dietary Advice >I would prefer to eat my correct ratios of carbs/proteins all day. Missed this. My correct ratios are the ones that lead to acceptable BG's. Not the ones some dietician was mistakenly taught and then tried to mistakenly teach me. That ratio can be different at different times of day and in different meals. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Latest: The Quality of ADA Dietary Advice > On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 03:35:26 -0800 (PST), ItoTito > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > --http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com > Latest: The Quality of ADA Dietary Advice I want to thank everyone that responded. I had no idea that others had the same issue. That is what I have been doing. I love eggs so eat those alot. I use 1 egg, some egg white and a bit of cheese. That way the cholesterol isn't too bad. At lunch I do more the salad thing and then more carbs at night. The other thing I do is run in the morning, which allows me to take on a bit more carbs. By doing so, I can have very high fiber cereal for breakfast some time. Does anyone understand why the time of day makes a difference ? Is it cortisol levels ? One day had them tested and sure enough they were very high and followed the periods I struggle the most. Has anyone tried cortisol blocking supplements ? >> On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 03:35:26 -0800 (PST), ItoTito >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >very high and followed the periods I struggle the most. Has anyone >tried cortisol blocking supplements ? Someone probably already posted this link, but it's worth reading twice: http://www.diabetic-talk.org/dp.htm Also: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/diabetes/faq/part2/ scroll down to "Why is my morning bg high? What are dawn phenomenon, rebound, and Somogyi effect?" Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Latest: The Quality of ADA Dietary Advice >> On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 03:35:26 -0800 (PST), ItoTito >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> That ratio can be different at different times of day and in >> different meals. > I want to thank everyone that responded. I had no idea that others had > the same issue. > That is what I have been doing. I love eggs so eat those alot. I use 1 > egg, some egg white and a bit of cheese. That way the cholesterol > isn't too bad. > At lunch I do more the salad thing and then more carbs at night. > The other thing I do is run in the morning, which allows me to take on > a bit more carbs. By doing so, I can have very high fiber cereal for > breakfast some time. > Does anyone understand why the time of day makes a difference ? Is it > cortisol levels ? One day had them tested and sure enough they were > very high and followed the periods I struggle the most. Has anyone > tried cortisol blocking supplements ? Your body has natural rhythms. Why not follow them instead of trying to iron them out with medication? Go with the flow, man! :-)  SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] > >> >I would prefer to eat my correct ratios of carbs/proteins all day. > >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Your body has natural rhythms. Why not follow them instead of trying > to iron them out with medication? Go with the flow, man! :-) It would still be smarter to pursue a cure for the insulin resistance by eating less, down to the right amount: http://HeartMDPhD.com/BeSmart Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrer... be euglycemic: http://TheWellnessFoundation.com/BeHealthy Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Swordbearer for the KING of kings and LORD of lords. http://HeartMDPhD.com/Sword > It would still be smarter to pursue a cure for the insulin resistance > by eating less, down to the right amount: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Swordbearer for the KING of kings and LORD of lords. > http://HeartMDPhD.com/Sword First of all I read some of the stuff you posted and tend to believe in getting rid of the VAT. Where I struggle a little more is the way to get there. I excercise a lot and am getting leaner and leaner. I am less than 15% body fat, and want to make my way down to 10. 10% BF for a male is quite low I am trying to find the right diet/excercise program to keep the muscle and burn the fat. I may not agree with your way to get there in terms of mmasuring weight of what we intake. I want to make sure I am getting the right ratios of carbs, proteins, fats, fiber, vitamins, Omega 3....all of course remembering I am not 'normal', I am diabetic Is it safe to say that if I continue to lose weight and improve my % body fat, the VAT will go ? Is it likely to be a 10% BF and still have excess VAT ? Can other people comment on your approach and if it has worked for them ? "ItoTito" <itotito@yahoo.com> > > It would still be smarter to pursue a cure for the insulin resistance > > by eating less, down to the right amount: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > fat, the VAT will go ? Is it likely to be a 10% BF and still have excess VAT > ? > Can other people comment on your approach and if it has worked for them ? <...crickets...> -- cary > "ItoTito" <itotito@yahoo.com> > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > > Can other people comment on your approach and if it has worked for them ? http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/c2c9ecdc8dd39c0b? > <...crickets...> Sad to note that you remain afflicted with tinnitus. May we, who are Jesus' brethren, continue to pray for your perishing soul: http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts/PrayForCary Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Swordbearer for the KING of kings and LORD of lords. http://HeartMDPhD.com/Sword On Mar 2, 9:21 am, "ItoTito" > Can other people comment on your approach and if it has worked for them ? Google has a scholar search engine where you can search through medical journals and other journals and do a search. http://scholar.google.com/ >> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD >> Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >First of all I read some of the stuff you posted and tend to believe in >getting rid of the VAT. First of all, you are corresponding with a fruitcake. Don't just go on my advice, do a little searching of his past posts. Then ignore him. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > First of all, you are corresponding with a fruitcake. Name-calling simply shows that the Holy Spirit is absolutely right to convict you: http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts You really do not have much longer, dear Alan: http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit/Prophecy May you wisely choose to repent soon by publicly declaring with your mouth that "Jesus is LORD:" http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit/TheWay Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Swordbearer for the KING of kings and LORD of lords. http://HeartMDPhD.com/Sword On Mar 2, 5:11 pm, Ejac > > First of all, you are corresponding with a fruitcake. > > Name-calling simply shows that the Holy Spirit is absolutely right to > convict you: Not name calling, but calling "a fruitcake a fruitcake" http://HeartMDPhD.com/2PDFruitcakeApproach http://HeartMDPhD.com/Foolishsatan On Mar 2, 5:55 pm, Ejac > http://HeartMDPhD.com/FoolishChung http://HeartMDPhD.com/OAF On Mar 2, 5:55 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote: > http://HeartMDPhD.com/Foolishsatan ; ) > On Mar 2, 5:11 pm, Ejac > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > http://HeartMDPhD.com/2PDFruitcakeApproach What's worse, calling an obviously delusional person a fruitcake or calling one's rational critics Satan? >>> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD >>> Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. Thanks. Fruitcake's GI is way to high for me. Will avoid :-) > >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > > First of all, you are corresponding with a fruitcake. Name-calling simply shows that the Holy Spirit is absolutely right to convict dear neighbor Alan: http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts > > Don't just go on my advice, do a little searching of his > > past posts. > > > > Then ignore him. > > Thanks. Fruitcake's GI is way to high for me. Will avoid :-) Alan leading you around would be a classic example of a blind diabetic leading another diabetic to blindness. This saddens me. Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be euglycemic: http://TheWellnessFoundation.com/BeHealthy Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Swordbearer for the KING of kings and LORD of lords. http://HeartMDPhD.com/Sword > First of all I read some of the stuff you posted and tend to believe in > getting rid of the VAT. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > make my way down to 10. 10% BF for a male is quite low I am trying to find > the right diet/excercise program to keep the muscle and burn the fat. (snipped) > I want to make sure I am getting the right ratios of carbs, > proteins, fats, fiber, vitamins, Omega 3....all of course remembering I am [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Can other people comment on your approach and if it has worked for them ? Based on your comments it is obvious that you are not obese in general. Some ethnic grooups tend to be obese in the mid-section and can still have low BMI. The following shows a means of reducing VAT with symtoms other than diabetes and it is not necessarily applicable to you. "VFA and SFA decreased significantly after 6 months of NCPAP treatment. [...] Obesity can be defined as an accumulation of excess body fat and is the most common nutritional disorder in humans. It is a major cause of mortality and morbidity through the development of metabolic disorders and cardiovascular disease. Extensive research into obesity has shown that the location of body fat deposits rather than their size is more important in determining the risk of developing of obesity-linked disorders.8 In fact, the accumulation of intra-abdominal visceral fat in the mesentery and omentum is a better predictor of coronary heart disease than the body mass index (BMI).9 Visceral fat accumulation (VFA) and fat around the neck11 12 are also risk factors for OSAS (Obstructive sleep apnea syndrome) in obese patients.10" Changes in Intra-Abdominal Visceral Fat and Serum Leptin Levels in Patients With Obstructive Sleep Apnea Syndrome Following Nasal Continuous Positive Airway Pressure Therapy - http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/100/7/706 DHEA is known to decrease with age. "Participants Fifty-six elderly persons (28 women and 28 men aged 71 [range, 65-78] years) with age-related decrease in DHEA level. Intervention Participants were randomly assigned to receive 50 mg/d of DHEA or matching placebo for 6 months. Main Outcome Measures The primary outcome measures were 6-month change in visceral and subcutaneous abdominal fat measured by magnetic resonance imaging and glucose and insulin responses to an oral glucose tolerance test (OGTT). Results Of the 56 men and women enrolled, 52 underwent follow-up evaluations. Compliance with the intervention was 97% in the DHEA group and 95% in the placebo group. Based on intention-to-treat analyses, DHEA therapy compared with placebo induced significant decreases in visceral fat area ... and subcutaneous fat... . The insulin area under the curve (AUC) during the OGTT was significantly reduced after 6 months of DHEA therapy compared with placebo ... . Despite the lower insulin levels, the glucose AUC was unchanged, resulting in a significant increase in an insulin sensitivity index in response to DHEA compared with placebo... . Conclusion DHEA replacement could play a role in prevention and treatment of the metabolic syndrome associated with abdominal obesity.Effect of DHEA on Abdominal Fat and Insulin Action in Elderly Women and Men - http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/292/18/2243 See the linked articles citing this article listed at it's end. "Serum DHEA-S was inversely and specifically associated with visceral fat area (VA) as assessed by CT in men and with waist-to-hip ratio in women. In vitro, DHEA-S increased lipolysis in women's subcutaneous adipose tissue at 2 h, while in men, the effect was evident in visceral tissue and after 24 h of treatment. In conclusion, DHEA-S contributes to gender-related differences in body fat distribution probably by a differential lipolytic action." Source: Role of DHEA-S on body fat distribution: Gender- and depot-specific stimulation of adipose tissue lipolysis - http://tinyurl.com/2b5p2q "A logical approach to preventing or correcting visceral obesity is to down-regulate the lipoprotein lipase (LPL) activity of visceral adipocytes relative to that expressed in subcutaneous adipocytes and skeletal muscle. IGF-I activity appears to be a primary determinant of visceral LPL activity in humans; systemic IGF-I activity is decreased when diurnal insulin secretion is low, when hepatocytes detect a relative paucity of certain essential amino acids, and when estrogens are administered orally. The ability of alpha-glucosidase inhibitor therapy to selectively reduce visceral adiposity suggests that down-regulation of diurnal insulin secretion and/or IGF-I activity may indeed have a greater impact on LPL activity in visceral fat than in subcutaneous fat. Thus, low-glycemic-index, vegan, high-protein, or hypocaloric diets can be expected to decrease visceral LPL activity, as can postmenopausal estrogen therapy. Furthermore, estrogen enhances the LPL activity of non-pathogenic gluteofemoral fat cells, whereas testosterone decreases visceral LPL activity in men; this may explain why sex hormone replacement in middle-aged people of both sexes has a favorable impact on visceral fat and insulin sensitivity. Beta-adrenergic activity suppresses transcription of LPL in adipocytes; this phenomenon may contribute to the favorable impact of exercise training on visceral obesity..." PMID: 11461172 Also see PMID: 15386813, PMID: 15823385 Frank > > First of all I read some of the stuff you posted and tend to believe in > > getting rid of the VAT. [quoted text clipped - 103 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Very interesting post Frank. Thank you. Best regards, Michelle C., T2 diet & exercise > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > make my way down to 10. 10% BF for a male is quite low I am trying to find > the right diet/excercise program to keep the muscle and burn the fat. That would be the exercise your stomach does when it sings and laughs out loud. > I may not agree with your way to get there in terms of mmasuring weight of > what we intake. I want to make sure I am getting the right ratios of carbs, > proteins, fats, fiber, vitamins, Omega 3....all of course remembering I am > not 'normal', I am diabetic Your GI tract is designed to function optimally to address all nutritional needs when it is allowed to receive and process an optimal amount of food. > Is it safe to say that if I continue to lose weight and improve my % body > fat, the VAT will go ? No. > Is it likely to be a 10% BF and still have excess VAT ? Even one ounce of VAT is excessive and pathological. VAT persists while there is overeating. > Can other people comment on your approach and if it has worked for them ? Yes, and they have. Visit the unsolicited testimonials via links here: http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit/2PD-OMER Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be euglycemic: http://TheWellnessFoundation.com/BeHealthy Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Swordbearer for the KING of kings and LORD of lords. http://HeartMDPhD.com/Sword On Mar 2, 3:04 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote: > > Can other people comment on your approach and if it has worked for them ? > > Yes, and they have. Visit the unsolicited testimonials via links > here: > > http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit/2PD-OMER Once again Dr. Chung present part of the truth. Here are other parts of 5 of the positive "Unsolicited Testimonials" from Dr. Chung's site. All of them are from group posts - none sent to Dr. Chung - so most of these folks may have no idea they are "testifying" about the 2PD whatever. Dr. Chung has pulled quotes out of context to give the appearance of widespread support. "The simplest diet isn't really a diet at all - just a lifestyle change opting to move more, eat less. The rest will balance itself out in reasonably short order." Geoff Sample August 7, 2002 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hitdigest/message/12572 "Dr. Chung did make one strategic mistake in basing his two pounds on the food weight rations of mountain climbers. The two pounds there is concentrated and dehydrated. When properly hydrated before consumption it ends up to be more like 5 or 6 pounds. When I spent two weeks of 25 mile per day rocky mountain hiking I dropped from 185 to 175 on such a diet, but could probably gain on that same diet at today's activity level." Jerome R. Long May 29, 2002 http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/6cceb5e573041021 "I cannot imagine eating the 2 pound diet--at least not for any length of time. If I continued to eat my present well balanced diet and reduced the amount of food to 2 pounds I would be eating 800 calories a day. I would guess that anyone could lose weight on 800 calories a day. For me to do this, I would need to be in a hospital with an armed guard at the door. " Dolores Santos May 7, 2002 http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.nutrition/msg/42aa7f9bc58fb783 "What a**holes Dr. Chung and Michael Loser are--they don't take into consideration the emotional issues that overweight people need to deal with. They don't believe that people's bodies are cabable of telling them how to eat?? Notice I said ___bodies_____, not minds. Go out and buy yourself a two pound scale because you body must be broken. It has no way of telling you if it is hungry or full!!!! How, then, do they explain how babies and children know when to stop? What a joke!!!!! Things aren't always so black and white as those morons want to believe" Sharon "Happycat" July 26, 2002 http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.diet.low-carb/msg/5e3cb607fe996d88 "Andrew has stated that the 2PD figure is arbitrary and can be fine tuned by people of different build as needs but finding a suitable volume of food remains the mission." Carol Frilegh August 5, 2003 http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/a81148d89b5f17da > On Mar 2, 3:04 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" > <heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > Carol Frilegh August 5, 2003 http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/a81148d89b5f17da Well, you beat me to it; I was halfway into posting essentially what you just did. Only three of the "testimonials" reported having actually Tried the "approach", the other seventeen were merely commentary -- a number of them, as you point out, quite derisive. The three who tried it in fact reported losing weight -- and I've said here more than once that this would be expected -- but you will lose weight on any one of dozens diets; I myself lost 35 pounds in 9 weeks simply by keeping caloric intake under 1200 a day. There's nothing out of the ordinary here. More to the point, not one of the 15 percent of testifiers who actually report trying the thing mention being cured of diabetes. -- cary >I seem to be very insulin resistant in the morning (all the way up to >noon) and almost normal late afternoon/night. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Same, granola bar, I ate at 5PM, with a level of 5. I went to 6 in an >hour. "Doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do this" "Well don't do it then!" This is actually pretty common, with few exceptions most of the Type 2s here tend to eat fewer carbs in the morning and correspondingly more in the evening. My factor is about 2:1, others can be double that. I also used to have trouble exerting myself in the morning which would set off a liver dump, whereas this stopped happening later in the day unless I *really* overdid it. >>I seem to be very insulin resistant in the morning (all the way up to >>noon) and almost normal late afternoon/night. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > set off a liver dump, whereas this stopped happening later in the day > unless I *really* overdid it. I understand and agree. But the difference between morning and night is crazy for me. At night, I can eat almost any amount of carbs and come back to a lower than 7.8 within 2 hours. I'll peak at 9 at the most. I had sushi and a big piece of cheesecake the other night. Spiked to 9, back under 7 two hours later.( I don't do this very often. I do eat low carb most of the time.) In the morning, 1 slice of bread and I'm at 9. If I could soften the DP effect, I am sure I could further reduce my 1ac. I'm a stubborn SOB and want to go below 5%. I have always been an early morning person. I cannot sleep past 6AM. I wonder if I taught my system to set off the whole hormone HGH, cortisol thing. I spent years training at 6AM. >>>I seem to be very insulin resistant in the morning (all the way up to >>>noon) and almost normal late afternoon/night. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > wonder if I taught my system to set off the whole hormone HGH, cortisol > thing. I spent years training at 6AM. My A1c's are under 5 but I have DP every day. My A1c wouldn't be that low if my daytime numbers were as high as yours, i.e. under 7.8 at 2 hours. After my DP corrects itself the rest of my day is spent in the 4's and low 5's. I rarely go higher than that even after meals. Trust me, I don't consider a 7.8 good by any means and very very rarely allow this to happen. That would only be the case if I ate a high carb meal, which I don't After my DP, after lunch and about 2PM my pre meal level is usually mid 4s, I usually am a 6 max after a meal and back to a low 5 soon after. I tried testing at midnight and 2AM and I am 4ish. What are your morning levels like ? >>>>I seem to be very insulin resistant in the morning (all the way up to >>>>noon) and almost normal late afternoon/night. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > After my DP corrects itself the rest of my day is spent in the 4's and low > 5's. I rarely go higher than that even after meals. > Trust me, I don't consider a 7.8 good by any means and very very rarely > allow this to happen. That would only be the case if I ate a high carb [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > What are your morning levels like ? Anything up to 8.0. On a good day it could be low 6's, mostly between 7.0 and 8.0 though. Our numbers sound very similar. Morning and evening. I think you do a little better in the evening. But I take most of my carbs after 3 and about 125 or more a day. But only good carbs. I need to find the right amount of carbs and excercise to 'break' the DP morning cycle. If I eat 0 carbs for breakfast, my DP goes up to 6.8 and sticks there, drops to 6.2 by 9, 5.9 by 11....and then I have a low carb lunch and it goes to 7 and drops down to high 4 soon afterwards. Then I am ok for the rest of the day. >> Trust me, I don't consider a 7.8 good by any means and very very rarely >> allow this to happen. That would only be the case if I ate a high carb [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Anything up to 8.0. On a good day it could be low 6's, mostly between 7.0 > and 8.0 though. > Our numbers sound very similar. Morning and evening. I think you do a > little better in the evening. > > But I take most of my carbs after 3 and about 125 or more a day. But only > good carbs. What do you call "good" carbs? Good carbs to me are of a type and amount that don't cause my bg rise. Of course just about everything that goes in my mouth is as nutritious as I can make it. Lots of nutrition for the least amount of carbs. A plate of highly coloured, fibrousy raw vegetables with a bit of hommus, guacamole or salsa is more nutritional than a small serve of brown rice and way less carbs and virtually no appreciative rise in bg. Also more filling > I need to find the right amount of carbs and excercise to 'break' the DP > morning cycle. If I eat 0 carbs for breakfast, my DP goes up to 6.8 and [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> Anything up to 8.0. On a good day it could be low 6's, mostly between 7.0 >> and 8.0 though. >> Our numbers sound very similar. Morning and evening. I think you do a >> little better in the evening. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >>> Anything up to 8.0. On a good day it could be low 6's, mostly between 7.0 >>> and 8.0 though. I should be clearer. I call good carbs anything low GI or lots of fiber. So last night I got them from lentils (high fiber), yogurt (low GI) and spinach (low GI). I'm starting to think I need to rely less on what the label said 'it should do' and what it actually does. I always assumed GI and Fiber would be my indicators if OK to eat or not soooooo much to learn >>> Our numbers sound very similar. Morning and evening. I think you do a >>> little better in the evening. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > soooooo much to learn I think the GI is a great tool but it still needs personal experimentation. >I should be clearer. I call good carbs anything low GI or lots of fiber. >So last night I got them from lentils (high fiber), yogurt (low GI) and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >soooooo much to learn I call good carbs the carbs in any meal that led to a peak post-prandial meter reading under 6.5mmol/l(117). I call fibre a separate food item which may, or may not, be eaten together with my carbs. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Latest: The Quality of ADA Dietary Advice : I should be clearer. I call good carbs anything low GI or lots of fiber. : So last night I got them from lentils (high fiber), yogurt (low GI) and : spinach (low GI). : I'm starting to think I need to rely less on what the label said 'it : should do' and what it actually does. I always assumed GI and Fiber : would be my indicators if OK to eat or not : soooooo much to learn Your best measure is your meter which will let you know how various foods react on YOUR body, not some average. Pos prandial testing at 1 and 2 hours intensively until you learn what you can and can't eat and in what quantities is your best bet. Wendy >>>>I seem to be very insulin resistant in the morning (all the way up to >>>>noon) and almost normal late afternoon/night. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >my DP corrects itself the rest of my day is spent in the 4's and low 5's. I >rarely go higher than that even after meals. I don't suffer from DP as such, my fastings are almost always in the fours these days. Usual suggestions for those that do are varying types of snack at night, including some carbs, some protein, possibly some red wine. Not necessary in my case, and the carb control during the day works OK. However I can easily do postprandials like ItoTito's by munching on "recommended" levels of carbs. Using alpha-lipoic acid has reduced my numbers overall, and reduced the swings and the liver dumps. The "official" drug for obtaining these benefits is Metformin, or other meds which work on the insulin resistance. Other things which help the insulin resistance: exercise, losing midriff fat, reading posts by Old Al >>>>>I seem to be very insulin resistant in the morning (all the way up to >>>>>noon) and almost normal late afternoon/night. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Other things which help the insulin resistance: exercise, losing > midriff fat, reading posts by Old Al Thanks for your response Trinkwasser Excercise, Lots of it. I run 50km and lifts weights 3x a week Metformin, tried it, it did nothing for me. 1ac didn't improve, fasting stayed the same and OGTT was identical Fat : I am at about 15% body fat, which is good for a male. But I would love to be low teens Red wine : every night, jury is still out if it makes a difference, but heck, it's enjoyable Posts by Al....just learned about them and plan to read many more I need to try alpha-lipoic acid. Any recommendations ? > Excercise, Lots of it. I run 50km and lifts weights 3x a week Is that your weekly mileage or do you really run more-than-a-marathon several times a week regularly? :-) bj (I do ~15miles (25k) in a week in ~3 runs, it's all my body will put up with regularly) >> Excercise, Lots of it. I run 50km and lifts weights 3x a week > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > (I do ~15miles (25k) in a week in ~3 runs, it's all my body will put up > with regularly) Oops, that 50k for the week and weights 3x. I do it in 5 or 6 morning runs a week and one night of track. We both seem to like those 8kish runs. I hear that over 50k of running can cause drop in sex drive and you can never have enough of that, so I stop when i hit 50 ;-) > Oops, that 50k for the week and weights 3x. I do it in 5 or 6 morning runs > a week and one night of track. We both seem to like those 8kish runs. Actually my runs vary from ~3 miles to 5 or more -- I'm currently working up to 10+ & hope to feel like doing enough summer training for a fall 1/2M, so my long run right now is about 8-9 miles, with my other runs in the 3-4mile range. But 7-8k is a good "regular distance" for me -- comfortable, doesn't take *too* long, & doesn't usually wipe me out -- and feels like "a good run"; besides, it takes me the first 1-1/2 mi just to get warmed & loosened up so I like to have a decent amount of comfy-running after I've done the hard part! But I don't do weights unless I'm rehabbing something. I also don't do enough stretching, though the more I run the better I have to do on that or I'll be *very* stiff. bj >>>>>>I seem to be very insulin resistant in the morning (all the way up to >>>>>>noon) and almost normal late afternoon/night. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > >I need to try alpha-lipoic acid. Any recommendations ? Since the Metformin didn't help much I don't know whether the ALA will. There was some good information posted by Gys et al. last October Thread title Alpha Lipoic Acid. Beneficial effects for Diabetic Patients message ID 470b45da$0$25493$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.n I trialled it for the neuropathy and discovered for myself that it was helping lower my BG overall, reduce the post-meal spikes and also reduce the liver dumps I tended to get in the mornings not as DP per se but if I overexerted myself with too low BG. Even 200 - 300 mg/day had a measurable effect. You sound like me only worse <G> skinny and comparatively fit and active, does the same thing tend to run in your family as in mine? The other major anti-IR meds were Actos and Avandia, which have gotten something of a bad press of late, I suspect like a lot of things they are good drugs IF prescribed only to people without contraindications. You seem to be doing all the "right things" yet not finding a solution, maybe the best way is just to be aware of the phenomenon and avoid the carb levels that cause the spikes. I had an enlightening moment when I twigged that what is mainly wrong with me is that I can't handle carbs *over time* - Mr/Ms Average can stuff their face with a high carb load then somehow ration the glucose produced throughout the day: I need to treat carbs as "instant food" and not dose with any more than I can use immediately - but on the other hand not take so few that I trigger a liver dump. If I'm doing stuff in the morning I make use of the "pizza effect" using slow carbs plus fat to allow the slow release of glucose over the time that I'm active. This can be a nightmare for Type 1s except pumpers because the insulin works a lot faster than the carbs, but for some of us Type 2s the slow steady input of glucose pretty much matches the slow steady input of insulin from a pancreas which can churn out Phase 2 without the Phase 1 "boluses". What are your lipids like? The ratio of trigs/HDL is indicative of your general level of insulin resistance - but though I hammered mine right down thanks to the dietary advice from here, I still have a changing ratio through the day, mainly I suspect due to the muscle receptors. Hmmm, just checked my postprandial + 1 hour at 4.8 (86) and I didn't do much today beyond a long drive and taking mother for a short gentle walk, think I'll just do a power walk round the block and treat myself to some 85% chocolate, BRB . . . >>>>>>>I seem to be very insulin resistant in the morning (all the way up to >>>>>>>noon) and almost normal late afternoon/night. [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] > walk, think I'll just do a power walk round the block and treat myself > to some 85% chocolate, BRB . . . The only reason I am 'skinny' is because of the excercise. I used to weigh 232lbs at 5'10". Not pretty. I think my FBG was 13 back then. I lost a lot of the weight and everything went to 'normal'. 5.1 FBG and 5.1% 1ac, but a few years later it started creaping up again. I am now between 165 and 170. My family is very athletic and I used to be, but let myself go late 20s and paid the price for it. Now I am back in good shape and plan to stay this way. I have a certain amount of determination and will power which I think will eventaully help me even better control this thing. If it weren't for my DP I am sure I could do quite well. At night I can take quite a big carb load and have respectable 1 hour measure. It doesn't sound like I have much to lose in trying ALA. Is there a brand/dosage you would recommend ? >> Hmmm, just checked my postprandial + 1 hour at 4.8 (86) and I didn't >> do much today beyond a long drive and taking mother for a short gentle >> walk, think I'll just do a power walk round the block and treat myself >> to some 85% chocolate, BRB . . . Which was good, I only dropped to 4.6, the same walk can drop me 2 whole points if I get up to 6 or so. >The only reason I am 'skinny' is because of the excercise. I used to weigh >232lbs at 5'10". Not pretty. I think my FBG was 13 back then. I lost a lot [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >but let myself go late 20s and paid the price for it. Now I am back in good >shape and plan to stay this way. Yes sounds like you got rid of the environmental effects but are still left with those pesky genes. >I have a certain amount of determination and will power which I think will >eventaully help me even better control this thing. If it weren't for my DP I >am sure I could do quite well. At night I can take quite a big carb load and >have respectable 1 hour measure. Diabetes is very logical but sometimes the logic isn't immediately apparent. For example I have much more energy with low BG. Sometimes eating more carbs *drops* my BG. If I take a small hit (5 - 10g) of fast carbs it frightens my pancreas into action so by the time I eat the meal about 1/2 hour later I have sufficient insulin to deal with more carbs than usual - a mini-spike is better than a larger longer spike later. Sometimes not eating enough carbs at breakfast fails to shut down the liver, I'm wondering if you might trial a similar small dose of glucose or similar as soon as you wake up, or otherwise tinker with your morning carb levels, see if you can't find a dose which will turn your liver off without causing an unacceptable spike in its own right, this may require testing every 15minutes or so. As you say, otherwise you're doing all the right things and your numbers look excellent. >It doesn't sound like I have much to lose in trying ALA. Is there a >brand/dosage you would recommend ? I'm in the UK so suppliers and brand names won't be the same. First I tried some 200mg tabs from the local store, which were horse pills, currently I'm taking 2x150mg which are much easier to swallow, recommended doses seem to go up to 600 mg/day and recommended suppliers include Jarow and IHerb. Some recommend the sustained release type as the stuff has a very short half life but it doesn't seem to make much difference to me, the effect lasts all day and takes a few days to wear off (from my experiments starting and stopping it) > Sometimes not eating enough carbs at breakfast fails to shut down the > liver, I'm wondering if you might trial a similar small dose of [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > seem to make much difference to me, the effect lasts all day and takes > a few days to wear off (from my experiments starting and stopping it) Thanks Trinkwasser, I am going to experiment with something like 10g of carbs for breakfast to try and turn off the liver dump. I get a small amount from things like cottage cheese, but I doubt the 6g from there is enough. I have a funny feeling that my actual glucose dump isn't that high, but it's the extreme insulin resistance in the morning that makes it much worst. How quickly would I see results with ALA if it does decide to help ? Days, weeks, months ? Thanks >> Sometimes not eating enough carbs at breakfast fails to shut down the >> liver, I'm wondering if you might trial a similar small dose of [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >funny feeling that my actual glucose dump isn't that high, but it's the >extreme insulin resistance in the morning that makes it much worst. Yes that would be the one. Strangely I've discovered a new phenomenon, I've been crashing out briefly in the evening after my meal (roughly the equivalent of a siesta for people with more normal hours) and getting higher than expected numbers after my late night meal, where normally I can handle more carbs. Now I'm not sure if the insulin resistance is returning due to lying still for a while, or if it's a result of this pesky hospital-acquired cough and sinus infection (I splattered blood out of my left nostril yesterday). Now the evenings are getting lighter I'm returning to my evening walks, see if that resolves things. Strange how the patterns can sometimes change without you knowing what caused it. >How quickly would I see results with ALA if it does decide to help ? >Days, weeks, months ? In my case, days, I wasn't expecting it but the effect is reproducible. Run a full day testing fasting and postprandials, then try the same with the same meals after say a week, see if you can spot the difference. >>How quickly would I see results with ALA if it does decide to help ? >>Days, weeks, months ? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > try the same with the same meals after say a week, see if you can spot > the difference. Interesting. I started taking ALA Saturday morning. Last night 4PM I was at 4.9. Ate a 45g carb load of lentils, some meat, a salad and a yogurt. 1 hour later 4.9, 2 hours later 5.2...I couldn't believe it. I wonder if it's the ALA. Only thing I did was for a 20 minute walk before my 1 hour measurement. >>>>>I seem to be very insulin resistant in the morning (all the way up to >>>>>noon) and almost normal late afternoon/night. [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > types of snack at night, including some carbs, some protein, possibly > some red wine. Thing is, are we really suffering by having DP? It is a built in function to get us through a period of time when we have not eaten. I just don't worry about DP anymore. It turns itself off when I eat. my A1c's are low and all other regular tests come back in normal range. >I understand and agree. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >cheesecake the other night. Spiked to 9, back under 7 two hours later.( I >don't do this very often. I do eat low carb most of the time.) That's not crazy. That's exactly where I was when I first started testing. >In the morning, 1 slice of bread and I'm at 9. Yep. And I still reach 8(144) these days if I do the same. >If I could soften the DP effect, I am sure I could further reduce my 1ac. >I'm a stubborn SOB and want to go below 5%. > >I have always been an early morning person. I cannot sleep past 6AM. I >wonder if I taught my system to set off the whole hormone HGH, cortisol >thing. I spent years training at 6AM. I've learnt to just accept that is the way I am in the morning. Oddly, my DP is now much less than it was; I wake with numbers between 5.5(100) and 6(108); but I still have DP because on days when I fast for a doctor's appointment I will be between 6.5(117) and 8(144) for the blood draw. Bedtime snacks seemed to help me. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Latest: The Quality of ADA Dietary Advice >But the difference between morning and night is crazy for me. At night, I >can eat almost any amount of carbs and come back to a lower than 7.8 within >2 hours. Well, I don't know about my recovery because I try to be below 7.8 always - if I was anywhere close to 7.8 at 2 hours I'd be on my exercise machines. But I can cope with 6g CHO in the morning, 25-30g at lunch, and 40-45g at supper to achieve those numbers. I think that kind of diurnal tolerance pattern is pretty common. Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 100ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25 >> But the difference between morning and night is crazy for me. At night, I >> can eat almost any amount of carbs and come back to a lower than 7.8 within [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > D&E, 100ug thyroxine > Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25 When most people quote carbs, do they subtract fiber ? Last night I had 83g carbs with 36 fiber, so 47 net. I went from 5.3 to 6.7 (1hr) back to 5.9 (2hr) >>> But the difference between morning and night is crazy for me. At night, I >>> can eat almost any amount of carbs and come back to a lower than 7.8 within [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Last night I had 83g carbs with 36 fiber, so 47 net. I went from 5.3 to >6.7 (1hr) back to 5.9 (2hr) Depends on the country you are in. Here they are listed on packets as separate ingredients; no subtraction required. In the USA the fibre is part of the carb count and should be subtracted - but not necessarily for insulin calculations. I'll let the T1's and insulin users expand on that. Good numbers BTW for a 47gm load. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Latest: The Quality of ADA Dietary Advice >>>> But the difference between morning and night is crazy for me. At night, I >>>> can eat almost any amount of carbs and come back to a lower than 7.8 within [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com > Latest: The Quality of ADA Dietary Advice i'm a type 1 who subtracts the fibre content to find the carb content that i shoot for at meals i've heard of some type 1's who don't subtract the fibre, but i don't see how they can do that and not go hypo 3 hours later as the insulin lasts about 4 hours and the food is digested at 1 hour....... kate >When most people quote carbs, do they subtract fiber ? > >Last night I had 83g carbs with 36 fiber, so 47 net. I went from 5.3 to >6.7 (1hr) back to 5.9 (2hr) Depends :P If I'm eating slow carbs, then yes. Some things that doesn't work with, though - parsnips and oats should be fine, but are absolutely guaranteed to send my bg soaring in surprisingly small quantities. That's nice numbers from that meal. Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 100ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25 >>> But the difference between morning and night is crazy for me. At night, >>> I can eat almost any amount of carbs and come back to a lower than 7.8 [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Last night I had 83g carbs with 36 fiber, so 47 net. I went from 5.3 to > 6.7 (1hr) back to 5.9 (2hr) My nutritionist explained that if the dietary fiber is 5 or above, then you can subtract. That is what I do. SignatureT2 - Oct. '96 - Lantus, oral meds, diet http://www.lockergnome.com/darksentinel Undo the munge to reply by email > My nutritionist explained that if the dietary fiber is 5 or above, then > you can subtract. That is what I do. That's what my dietician said too. But some people measure their carbs & fiber practically down to the decimal point so for them a gram or two matters. I just count loosely. bj >> My nutritionist explained that if the dietary fiber is 5 or above, then >> you can subtract. That is what I do. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I just count loosely. Same here. Fortunately, I'm not at the point where I have to measure like that. SignatureT2 - Oct. '96 - Lantus, oral meds, diet http://www.lockergnome.com/darksentinel Undo the munge to reply by email |
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