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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / March 2008

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Risk of death in T1 when restricting insulin to lose weight

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Robert Miles - 28 Feb 2008 15:08 GMT
An article on T1 diabetics increasing their risk of death by
restricting insulin to lose weight:

http://www.healthday.com/Article.asp?AID=613033
Uncle Enrico - 28 Feb 2008 14:01 GMT
> An article on T1 diabetics increasing their risk of death by
> restricting insulin to lose weight:
>
> http://www.healthday.com/Article.asp?AID=613033 

Hmmm...
This issue of insulin and weight gain and the problem of weight
conscious Type I women cutting back on their  insulin to hazardous
consequences makes me think about Dr. Bernstein's writings on alpha
lipoic acid and its insulin mimetic properties.

According to Bernstein, ALA mimics the action of insulin, particularly
if taken with evening primrose oil (gamma linolenic acid). For Type I's
and all those injecting insulin, sufficient doses of the two supplements
will lower blood sugar and reduce the need for insulin injections by
about 30%, according to his calculations and experience. Insulin users
must titrate their dosages when beginning ALA and EPO  or risk hypoglycemia.

The interesting point of this is that ALA's mimicking of insulin
involves transporting blood glucose into the muscle tissues but
***without entailing fat storage.***

So how safe is ALA plus EPO? Pretty safe apparently, given its long
record of use, and with many side benefits:  ALA is a potent
anti-oxident being taken, according to Bernstein, by cardiologists who
were previously taking vitamin E.  Bernstein is a Type I and takes ALA
and EPO himself. ALA and EPO are also effective for many people with
neuropathy pain. There is evidence that ALA and EPO work directly on the
pathology of oxidative stress which gives rise to diabetic neuropathy.
My own physician takes ALA and EPO and has her family do the same. Her
husband, also a physician as well as a Type II takes these supplements.

Since I've been using ALA and EPO for my neuropathy, I've significantly
reduced my total daily dosage of insulin and have lost weight. I should
add, though, that I am seriously restricting fast carbs at the same time
and continuing my daily exercise.
Candle - 29 Feb 2008 16:17 GMT
>> An article on T1 diabetics increasing their risk of death by
>> restricting insulin to lose weight:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> makes me think about Dr. Bernstein's writings on alpha lipoic acid and its
> insulin mimetic properties.

Can you elaborate on this?
Is ALA+EPO good even for people who don't have neuropathy
yet?
I am currently only on metformin. Will taking ALA+EPO help
control my sugar levels better? What dosage?

> According to Bernstein, ALA mimics the action of insulin, particularly if
> taken with evening primrose oil (gamma linolenic acid). For Type I's and
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> add, though, that I am seriously restricting fast carbs at the same time
> and continuing my daily exercise.
Candle - 01 Mar 2008 10:03 GMT
Uncle Enrico - did you get a chance to look at my question?
Can you answer or provide a link Bernsteins article on this, in
case it's available on the web?

>>> An article on T1 diabetics increasing their risk of death by
>>> restricting insulin to lose weight:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I am currently only on metformin. Will taking ALA+EPO help
> control my sugar levels better? What dosage?
morris - 02 Mar 2008 09:29 GMT
> > Hmmm...
> > This issue of insulin and weight gain and the problem of weight conscious
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I am currently only on metformin. Will taking ALA+EPO help
> control my sugar levels better? What dosage?

Candle,

On a recent thread on ALA here on asd, Uncle Enrico puzzled over what
he noted as Bernstein's assertion that ALA seems to lower blood sugar
among the insulin dependent, but not among those on oral meds.  The
latter part of that matches my personal experience and that of many
people I have communicated with, although the first part does not seem
to match any communications I have had with anyone. Either the doctor
is wrong, or my lack of communication with T1s has colored the
feedback I have on this...

Of course Uncle Enrico probably can summarize what he knows about this
far better and more accurately than I just did....and probably will...

Morris
guys@consolidated.net - 28 Feb 2008 16:26 GMT
>An article on T1 diabetics increasing their risk of death by
>restricting insulin to lose weight:
>
>http://www.healthday.com/Article.asp?AID=613033

Diabetes is not well understod,  the body is a very complex
thing.  That leads to so many things  to be put out there that
may have no basis n fact.

I have never seen an intellgent person that is arrogant.

Real science has a way of making them a bit humble.

Bar room bums always have firm answers. They read them in
Popular Mechanics.
Màck©® - 28 Feb 2008 19:04 GMT
>>An article on T1 diabetics increasing their risk of death by
>>restricting insulin to lose weight:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Bar room bums always have firm answers. They read them in
>Popular Mechanics.

what you just wrote has zero to do with the article linked to above.  

For as long as you have been type 1 and you have no clue about type 1s
intentionally dropping their insulin very low in order to lose weight
is amazing.  This problem has been discussed multiple times every year
since I was discussed in ADA literature, ADA support meetings, amongst
groups and professionals who deal with eating disorders, even amongst
body builders(for the opposite reason).

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Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 02 Mar 2008 12:18 GMT
friend Guy (g...@consolidated.net) wrote:

> >An article on T1 diabetics increasing their risk of death by
> >restricting insulin to lose weight:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Real science has a way of making them a bit humble.

Real science is a search for the truth.

We, who are scientists, are humbled when we find HIM.

"I am the way and the truth and the life... " -- LORD Jesus Christ
(John 14:6).

Amen.

May we, who are Jesus' brethren, continue to pray for your perishing
soul:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts/PrayForGuy

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
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Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Swordbearer for the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
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Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 28 Feb 2008 19:05 GMT
> An article on T1 diabetics increasing their risk of death by
> restricting insulin to lose weight:
>
> http://www.healthday.com/Article.asp?AID=613033

For this reason, it is also smarter for overweight T1 diabetics to eat
less, down to the right amount:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/BeSmart

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be euglycemic... be blessed:

http://TheWellnessFoundation.com/BeHealthy

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Swordbearer for the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
http://HeartMDPhD.com/Sword
J Clement - 28 Feb 2008 19:52 GMT
On Feb 28, 2:05�pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:
> > An article on T1 diabetics increasing their risk of death by
> > restricting insulin to lose weight:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Lawful steward ofhttp://EmoryCardiology.com
> Swordbearer for the KING of kings and LORD of lords.http://HeartMDPhD.com/Sword

For this reason it is also important to measure BG level with a meter
and not to decide hunger is an accurate gauge of ones need for
insulin, other medications or food.

Wiser still to listen to people who have facts to back up their
medical claims.
The shared experiences of others facing simular challenges are more
valuable than the writings of a self-referential person who is not an
endocrinologist.

JS
Alan S - 28 Feb 2008 21:36 GMT
>An article on T1 diabetics increasing their risk of death by
>restricting insulin to lose weight:
>
>http://www.healthday.com/Article.asp?AID=613033

I read this first on a different site which gives slightly
different information from the study:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/98893.php
You will find the abstract of the original here:
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/dc07-2026v1

On my first reading of it I couldn't help seeing certain
parallels to the recent ACCORD headlines. By that I mean
that I would draw rather different conclusions from the data
than those arrived at by the researchers and the media.

Some snippets from the "medical news today" report:

"Thirty percent of the subjects reported restricting their
insulin intake at the study's outset. Frequency of the
behavior appears to influence mortality risk.
Insulin-restricting women who died had reported more
frequent insulin restriction and reported more eating
disorder symptoms at the study's outset than those
insulin-restrictors who were still living at study's end."

"This study's findings strongly suggest that insulin
restriction and related eating disorder behaviors may be
unique barriers to achieving optimal diabetes management,
Goebel-Fabbri said."

Chicken, egg, which came first?

Surely this report's headline could just as easily have been
"female Type 1 diabetics with eating disorders have a higher
risk of death than those who do not". The insulin
restriction could be a symptom of the eating disorder, not5
the other way around, so the real problem could be the
disorder, not insulin restriction. Particularly when you
note this: "Based on multivariate Cox regression analysis,
insulin restriction conveyed a three-fold increased risk of
mortality after controlling for baseline age, BMI, and
HbA1c." If A1c was the same, then restricted or otherwise it
would appear that the blood glucose effects may have been
similar. Or were they? No comment on differences in spike
amplitude differences despite similar A1c were made.

Only a lateral thought, but I understand that adolescence is
the period when females are most likely to develop eating
disorders. And, unlike type 2's, many type 1's are diagnosed
prior to or during adolescence. I wonder if the researchers
included "age at diagnosis" in their data and whether lower
diagnosis age was also related to the study subjects with
eating disorders and insulin restriction.

As a digression, no-one in the study or the journalists have
linked these two pieces of data. To me they stand out:

"Mean BMI was 25kg/m2 and mean HbA1c was 7.9%."

"Mean age of death was younger for insulin restrictors (45
vs. 58 years"

Excess weight was obviously not a factor despite the eating
disorders. 45 is far too young, but so is 58. And from my
type 2 viewpoint 7.9 is far too high for a diabetic of any
type.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com
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Tim Shoppa - 01 Mar 2008 13:49 GMT
> If A1c was the same, then restricted or otherwise it
> would appear that the blood glucose effects may have been
> similar. Or were they? No comment on differences in spike
> amplitude differences despite similar A1c were made.

Alan -
 I have some but not much experience with the subject. I volunteered
at my University Hospital's Pediatric Endocrinology unit while I was
in college, and mostly worked with diabetic teens in trouble. While I
was mostly working with boys as kind of a "role model", I would
occasionally overlap with girls with (suspected if not confirmed)
eating disorders. Typically they would be hospitalized multiple times
a year with DKA after skipping shots - bg's in the high hundreds if
not low thousands.

 I fear that any knowledge you or I try to apply about "spike
amplitude differences" is blown completely out of the water when bg's
are running that severely high, even occasionally.

 Several of the kids I worked with in that period died of acute
complications of DKA.

> Only a lateral thought, but I understand that adolescence is
> the period when females are most likely to develop eating
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> diagnosis age was also related to the study subjects with
> eating disorders and insulin restriction.

As a male with T1 diabetes I feel that I am almost completely
unqualified to talk about diabulimia in girls/women. Yeah, I've got
some mental hangups about some health issues, but every problem I've
ever had pales in comparison with an eating disorder that results in a
teenager ending up in intensive care because she didn't take her shots
because she was afraid of getting fat. Yes, I'm trivializing the rat
race going on in somebody's head when there's such problems and the
mental run-around going on. While I've been in DKA and I have some
hang-ups, I have never been through what those girls went through and
it scares the living bejeezus out of me after seeing some of what can
happen.

> As a digression, no-one in the study or the journalists have
> linked these two pieces of data. To me they stand out:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> type 2 viewpoint 7.9 is far too high for a diabetic of any
> type.

Again I feel that the sort-of-arithmetic average that the A1C and
other study statistics seems to constitute completely misses the
severity of even occasional trips through DKA. I almost feel that the
statistics are an attempt at downplaying the trauma caused by eating
disorders in diabetics. I've seen the extreme cases first-hand and
while a scientific study has to have numbers etc. in it, the personal
tragedies I witnessed seem completely trivialized by average numbers.

Sometimes I make stupid jokes here or elsewhere about diabulimia and
then feel really bad afterwards. It's such a scary subject that I have
a hard time saying anything useful about it without stupid stuff
coming out of my fingertips and into the keyboard. I apologize for
past trivializations I may have made out of my inability to cope with
what I've seen.

Tim.
Alan S - 01 Mar 2008 22:34 GMT
>> If A1c was the same, then restricted or otherwise it
>> would appear that the blood glucose effects may have been
[quoted text clipped - 67 lines]
>
>Tim.

Tim, I think we actually agree here, even if we came from
different directions.

My point is that the root cause of the problem is the eating
disorder. The insulin restriction is a result. That is not
how the paper and the headlines read.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com
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Tim Shoppa - 02 Mar 2008 13:09 GMT
> Tim, I think we actually agree here, even if we came from
> different directions.
>
> My point is that the root cause of the problem is the eating
> disorder. The insulin restriction is a result. That is not
> how the paper and the headlines read.

I agree, Alan, that paper doesn't say (it cannot, the way the study
was conducted) which came first. They're only saying that T1 diabetes
+ diabulimia is more fatal than just T1 by itself.

There are other studies that do show that eating disorders are more
prevalent in T1's than in the general population. The studies I've
read of adolescent females put T1's at a 2x to 3x risk than the
general population.

Tim.
willbill - 02 Mar 2008 14:48 GMT
> An article on T1 diabetics increasing their risk of death by
> restricting insulin to lose weight:
>
> http://www.healthday.com/Article.asp?AID=613033 

interesting article, given that it
is specific to type-1 women

i did find it interesting that it is
true for type-1 women, who i've always
thought tended to be thin!  but as we
all know, women in general are crazy
about body weight

... but you have to read it carefully.  the key
statement is buried in the middle:

<" ... But shortchanging insulin doses means
  glucose levels are not controlled and, ...,
  persistently high blood glucose levels lead
  to serious complications, including eye and
  kidney trouble, and even death.">

fwiw, over the years, i've lowered my insulin
levels a number of times (to lose weight).
the key is that i made sure to keep my blood
sugars under control

bill t1 since '57
 
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