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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / February 2008Lipoic Acid
I decided to try a new supplement, which is (R)-Lipoic Acid. This is similar to alpha lipoic acid, but it is more bio-available requiring you to take less daily. All I can say so far is wow. Taking the same insulin dosage prior to taking the supplement, my blood sugar numbers are a lot lower than before. I will have to take less insulin now (which is a good thing). I'm a T1. This is the third day of taking the supplements, and they have made a very noticeable improvement in my blood sugar. I just thought I'd share, because this is something that your doctor will more than likely never tell you. I'm taking a total of 100mg of (R)-Lipoic Acid per day (50mg two times a day with breakfast and dinner). I wish I had done this a lot sooner! > I decided to try a new supplement, which is (R)-Lipoic Acid. This is > similar to alpha lipoic acid, but it is more bio-available requiring [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I'm taking a total of 100mg of (R)-Lipoic Acid per day (50mg two times > a day with breakfast and dinner). I wish I had done this a lot sooner! Maybe they can inject you with a stem cell matrix and grow yourself a new pancreas.  SignatureBlattus Slafaly ? 3 :) 7/8 >> I decided to try a new supplement, which is (R)-Lipoic Acid. This is >> similar to alpha lipoic acid, but it is more bio-available requiring [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Maybe they can inject you with a stem cell matrix and grow yourself a >new pancreas. G'day G'day, I think the irony may be lost on many of the readers here. Lipoic acid improves nerve conduction so helps some diabetics with peripheral neuropathy either by itself or in conjunction with gamma linoleic acid, GLA found in evening primrose oil. In Germany it is prescribed for high blood sugar levels. The question is "What is the mechanism?" Best wishes, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin >G'day G'day, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Best wishes, I really did not know much about this supplement or its uses. I started taking a few more supplements recently, and I added this one to my regimen. To my surprise, it has affected my blood sugar readings. Nothing else has changed except the addition of supplements. I've never used primrose oil, nor have I had a need to. I still have feeling and sensation in my toes. I didn't even know that lipoic acid was used to treat neuropathy. > Lipoic acid improves nerve conduction so helps some diabetics with > peripheral neuropathy either by itself or in conjunction with gamma > linoleic acid, GLA found in evening primrose oil. > > In Germany it is prescribed for high blood sugar levels. > The question is "What is the mechanism?" I can give you some leads but you know more about chemistry than I do. Uncle Enrico gave Bernsteins explanation of what it does. It seems that you are asking how does alpha lipoic acid do it? The TCA Cycle The complex also requires 5 different coenzymes: CoA, NAD+, FAD+, lipoic acid and thiamine pyrophosphate (TPP). Three of the coenzymes of the complex are tightly bound to enzymes of the complex (TPP, lipoic acid and FAD+) and two are employed as carriers of the products of PDH complex activity (CoA and NAD+). - http://themedicalbiochemistrypage.org/tca-cycle.html See dihydrolipoyl dehydrogenase and transacetylase a-Betoglutaric Dehydrogenase X. ON THE MECHANISM OF DIHYDROLIPOYL DEHYDROGENASE REACTION - http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/236/8/2317 Search for dihydrolipoyl+mechanism: 1,070 finds - http://tinyurl.com/ys8pav Down-regulation of Pyruvate Dehydrogenase Phosphatase in Obese Subjects is a Defect that Signals Insulin Resistance - http://www.obesityresearch.org/cgi/content/full/13/4/678 A Model-Based Method for Assessing Insulin Sensitivity From the Oral Glucose Tolerance Test - http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/24/3/539 Search for dihydrolipoyl: 1,740 finds - http://tinyurl.com/299yvj Alpha-lipoic acid in liver metabolism and disease. "R-alpha-Lipoic acid is found naturally occurring as a prosthetic group in alpha-keto acid dehydrogenase complexes of the mitochondria, and as such plays a fundamental role in metabolism. ... it has the ability to alter the redox status of cells and interact with thiols and other antioxidants. Therefore, it appears that this compound has important therapeutic potential in conditions where oxidative stress is involved. ... A common response in these trials was an increase in glucose uptake, but increased plasma levels of pyruvate and lactate were also observed, suggesting that an inhibitory effect on the pyruvate dehydrogenase complex was occurring." PMID: 9607614 lipoprotein+"lipoic acid":02,600 finds - http://tinyurl.com/3x3gzv pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase 4 (PDK4) is important in fatty acid oxidation. "fatty acid oxidation"+PDK4: 392 finds - http://tinyurl.com/34o3t8 Frank > > Lipoic acid improves nerve conduction so helps some diabetics with > > peripheral neuropathy either by itself or in conjunction with gamma > > linoleic acid, GLA found in evening primrose oil. > > > In Germany it is prescribed for high blood sugar levels. > > The question is "What is the mechanism?" What I have read many times is that there are lots of theories about how ALA works, but none of them are proven. So while I am glad it helped with my neuropathy, and cite what sounds reasonable to me, I certainly wouldn't claim to know for sure. That explanation, BTW, is that ALA, as the only anti-oxidant that is both fat and water soluble, can migrate to and effectively remove free radicals in parts of the body, such as the nerve sheathes where the nerve damage causing neuropathy occurs. Other anti-oxidants, being only water or fat soluble, cannot get to those places. Sounds very plausible to me, the weak point being the assumption that free radicals are involved in neuropathy, an assumption that hasn't, to my knowledge, been proven. Which does not make me any less pleased with the results... Morris >Maybe they can inject you with a stem cell matrix and grow yourself a >new pancreas. I recall reading something about this. I'll wait until all the kinks are worked out first though :) > I decided to try a new supplement, which is (R)-Lipoic Acid. This is > similar to alpha lipoic acid, but it is more bio-available requiring [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I'm taking a total of 100mg of (R)-Lipoic Acid per day (50mg two times > a day with breakfast and dinner). I wish I had done this a lot sooner! Are you taking Insulow? >Are you taking Insulow? I don't get it. >> Are you taking Insulow? > > I don't get it. Dr. Bernstein has a couple of pages on alpha lipoic acid and now r-lipoic acid or r-alpha lipoic acid in his book "Diabetes Solution" 2nd and 3rd editions. Bernstein describes ALA as an "insulin mimetic" which transports glucose into muscle tissue, much like insulin, but it doesn't entail fat storage. Does this sound too good to be true? It's working for me as described. He says that ALA plus evening primrose oil works well to reduce or eliminate painful neuropathy, as many of us know, and advises patients injecting insulin to titrate their insulin dosages downward depending on how much ALA they take. In his 2nd edition, for neuropathy, he was recommending Jarrow Sustain time release ALA in dosages of 600 mg every 8 hours along with 1000 mg of EPO and advised insulin users to expect to reduce their insulin by 30%. In his 3rd edition, for neuropathy, he is recommending Insulow, an r-ALA and has reduced the dosage recommendation to 200 mg. every 8 hours along with 1000 mg of EPO. Insulow's package describes its ALA form as r-ALA. I've seen r-lipoic acid in nutrition stores. I'm assuming it's the same stuff. Insulow is available through Amazon.com. Personally, I found that Insulow was more potent at mimicking insulin than Jarrow Sustain, but I didn't think it was as effective in pain reduction. >>> Are you taking Insulow? >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > than Jarrow Sustain, but I didn't think it was as effective in pain > reduction. One other interesting footnote on ALA and it's blood sugar lowering properties: Bernstein says that he's been prescribing ALA and now r-ALA or r-LA for quite some time and has only seen hypos for those injecting insulin, but no hypos for those on oral meds. Hmmmm.... Explain that one. He also said that many cardiologists he knows long ago switched from Vitamin E to ALA, as he has done. He's a Type I. I'd be curious to know how much Insulow he's taking each day. I've reduced my insulin by around 40% with a modification in diet thrown in the mix. Blood sugars are much more stable. >One other interesting footnote on ALA and it's blood sugar lowering >properties: Bernstein says that he's been prescribing ALA and now r-ALA [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I've reduced my insulin by around 40% with a modification in diet thrown >in the mix. Blood sugars are much more stable. Thanks for the explanation. No -- I am not taking this particular product. I would guess, as you stated, Insulow is the same as r-LA (probably a trademarked name or some such). I actually ordered r-LA to take for an additional antioxidant. I was pleasantly surprised to learn it lowered my blood sugar. While we're sharing info, I am also taking olive leaf extract that I ordered from the same place. I think this may be a good supplement for diabetics too, especially if you are not taking an ACE inhibitor (I am not taking one, because my blood pressure is good). Olive leaf extract lowers the blood pressure, which helps protect the kidneys, in additional to boosting the immune system. It has no side effects, is all natural and safe. > I actually ordered r-LA to take for an additional antioxidant. I was > pleasantly surprised to learn it lowered my blood sugar. While we're [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > additional to boosting the immune system. It has no side effects, is > all natural and safe. Thanks for the info on olive leaf extract. >I actually ordered r-LA to take for an additional antioxidant. I was >pleasantly surprised to learn it lowered my blood sugar. While we're [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >additional to boosting the immune system. It has no side effects, is >all natural and safe. Yes I started taking it (ordinary bog standard ALA, first 200 mg then 2x150 mg) and was also surprised to find it not only improved my BG but also the muscle glucose uptake and cut out my morning liver dumps. The latter is a two-edged sword though, previously if I over-exerted in the morning unless I deliberately put my BG up I'd do a liver dump, now I can quite happily drop my BG to 60 before I start to notice, so I *still* deliberately put my BG up and I'm currently rechecking the parameters to see what I can and can't get away with. There have been other threads about this over the years, like most things it works for some but not others. I'd assumed it would work better for Type 2s as it reduces insulin resistance, hadn't thought of it for Type 1s. Hadn't heard of the olive leaf extract, personally I'm happy with my ARB for BP control. ACE and ARBs have kidney protective effects and others over and above the BP lowering. I have always read that ALA is supposed to lower blood sugar as well as help reverse neuropathy, and have corresponded with many people who have found it effective at the latter--but never anyone who had it lower their blood sugar. About a year ago, the Rexall brand of ALA had a warning on the bottle saying not to take it if you had diabetes, and we always assumed that was a cover-your-a.s (or their a.s) warning because it might lower blood sugar. But I have never seen evidence that it does lower blood sugar. Of course the ALA I took which helped with my neuropathy was garden variety Trader Joe's non-time release ALA, which worked well without EPO. I have seen a pretty good argument for why time release should not be as effective as the cheaper stuff http://www.doctormurray.com/ask/alphalipoic.asp although that runs contrary to the experience of some people here. Is it possible that one form of ALA is more effective with neuropathy, and that another form has an effect on blood sugar? Morris > I have always read that ALA is supposed to lower blood sugar as well > as help reverse neuropathy, and have corresponded with many people who [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Morris How much ALA were you taking per day? I began with 600 mg. 3 times a day. That required at least a 30% reduction in insulin. I was taking 200 mg 3X/day, or sometimes 300mg 2X/day. I took it for about a year, or about 6 months after the neuropathy stopped improving- it improved about 95%. Later on I tried another 3 months, and then later still read here about EPO and tried the cocktail for 3 months, hoping to get that last 5%, but it had no effect. At no point when I started or stopped did my blood glucose levels show any significant change. Morris > > I have always read that ALA is supposed to lower blood sugar as well > > as help reverse neuropathy, and have corresponded with many people who [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > How much ALA were you taking per day? I began with 600 mg. 3 times a > day. That required at least a 30% reduction in insulin. >I have always read that ALA is supposed to lower blood sugar as well >as help reverse neuropathy, and have corresponded with many people who [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Morris The R-Lipoic Acid I am taking is not time released. I ordered from the same company I order all my supplements from, and they are a high quality producer. The supplements I take are capsules, not pills, that do not contain any artificial or unnecessary ingredients (like coloring). Also, you would have to take a significantly higher amount of ALA to receive the same benefits of the R-LA supplement. I guess it is possible that a higher quality supplement provides more potency than one of a lower quality. |
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