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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / December 2007ADA To Change Thinking On Low Carb Diets?
Just arrived in the "Diabetes in Control" newsletter, which is supported by Bernstein. http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/results.php?storyarticle=5299 "ADA To Change Thinking On Low Carb Diets? Might it be a reality that the ADA might reduce its recommendations of getting most of our calories from carbohydrates? Could it be that they finally recognized that taking more medications rather then reducing the carbohydrates may not be the best treatment for patients with diabetes? Up to now, the American Diabetes Association, while admitting that "the best mix of carbohydrate, protein, and fat appears to vary depending on individual circumstances," has been reluctant to recommend significant carbohydrate restriction for a number of reasons. These include concerns that the diet is too difficult to follow, and that increasing fat and protein in the diet may cause health problems. However, there is new and mounting evidence that a low-carbohydrate diet can be helpful to Type 2 diabetics in a variety of ways, including weight loss, reduction of blood glucose, an often dramatic decrease in triglycerides, and other health benefits. Additionally, longer-term studies are so far not showing the ill effects that were feared. Each year in January, the ADA publishes new dietary and other treatment guidelines for diabetes, intended to reflect advances in the scientific understanding of how best to treat diabetes. Although the final wording of the 2008 document has not been fully decided upon, Dr. Judith Wylie-Rosett, co-chair of the writing panel for the ADA's 2007 Nutrition Recommendations, has indicated that, "there is growing recognition that a variety of diets including low carbohydrate diets, can achieve weight loss. The importance of controlling carbohydrate intake to improve postprandial blood glucose is also recognized." Although Dr. Wylie-Rosett is understandably hesitant to guess at the ADA's exact final wording for the 2008 update, she does think that it will reflect the growing indications that low carbohydrate diets can be helpful some diabetics. We shall anxiously await the opportunity to read the final version of the new ADA guidelines in the January 2008 issue of the journal Diabetes Care." end quote. Dr. Wylie-Rosett's comment "The importance of controlling carbohydrate intake to improve postprandial blood glucose is also recognized" may not seem dramatic, but it is a significant change in philosophy for the organisation. One less brick in the wall. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts Wow..so what are the "you must eat most of your calories from carbs and follow the ada at all costs" people gonna do now? Well..probably they will claim we are all nuts and they always advocated carb conrol as a way to manage bg...lol. KROM > Just arrived in the "Diabetes in Control" newsletter, which > is supported by Bernstein. [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com > Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts > Well..probably they will claim we are all nuts and they always advocated > carb conrol as a way to manage bg...lol. > "Alan S" <loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote in message >> Dr. Wylie-Rosett's comment "The importance of controlling >> carbohydrate intake to improve postprandial blood glucose is >> also recognized" may not seem dramatic, but it is a >> significant change in philosophy for the organisation. One >> less brick in the wall. So maybe 12 grains of rice will become official dogma. (- -) =m=(_)=m= RodS T2 Australia >> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. >> d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg >> Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. >> -- >> http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com >> Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts mmm..12 grains of rice... Beats my none..lol. Altho i had some chinese a while ago that had some of wifes rice from her meal spilled in and i did fine... I do miss general tso chicken with wgite rice. Im gonna have to creat a good sub for it..maybe using almond flour to deep fry the chicken for the crisp coating and make the sauce with splenda... KROM >> Well..probably they will claim we are all nuts and they always advocated >> carb conrol as a way to manage bg...lol. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >>> http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com >>> Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts >> Well..probably they will claim we are all nuts and they always advocated >> carb conrol as a way to manage bg...lol. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > So maybe 12 grains of rice will become official dogma. 12 grains of (brown) rice 11 sips of milk 10 mls of juice 9 bites of oatmeal 8 licks of ice cream 7 grains of sugar 6 grams of potato 5 goldennnnn corns 4 orange segments 3 tater tots 2 quarters of grain bread and 1 zero-fat diet. >>> Well..probably they will claim we are all nuts and they always advocated >>> carb conrol as a way to manage bg...lol. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >2 quarters of grain bread >and 1 zero-fat diet. and a partridge in a Pear tree... Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts >>>> Well..probably they will claim we are all nuts and they always advocated >>>> carb conrol as a way to manage bg...lol. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg >Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. stay away from the pear tree but enjoy the partridge.  SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >>>> Well..probably they will claim we are all nuts and they always >>>> advocated [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> > and a partridge in a Pear tree... Does partridge have fat in it? mmm...grilled partridge! eccept for the red haired kid..be he tastes gross! KROM > and a partridge in a Pear tree... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com > Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts >mmm...grilled partridge! > >eccept for the red haired kid..be he tastes gross! > >KROM have you seen him on his live show? SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > >> and a partridge in a Pear tree... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com >> Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts >>> Well..probably they will claim we are all nuts and they always advocated >>> carb conrol as a way to manage bg...lol. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > 2 quarters of grain bread > and 1 zero-fat diet. I kind of like that! :) > >> Well..probably they will claim we are all nuts and they always advocated > >> carb conrol as a way to manage bg...lol. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > 2 quarters of grain bread > and 1 zero-fat diet. This simply illustrates how without weighing, folks are clueless about how much they are eating. Suggested reading: http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/0803717a.html It remains wiser to eat less, down to the optimal amount: http://HeartMDPhD.com/EatLess Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed: http://TheWellnessFoundation.com/BeHealthy Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords. Our armchair diatition opines: "This simply illustrates how without weighing, folks are clueless about how much they are eating." Silly, knowing ones dinner weighs 1 pound tells nothing about carb content. Nutritional content for foods by serving or volume or numberetc. is easily found on packaging. If one wants, it can also be weighed but that would be a redundent activity. Additional evidence that the source can and should be ignored. God bless. >>> Well..probably they will claim we are all nuts and they always advocated >>> carb conrol as a way to manage bg...lol. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > 2 quarters of grain bread > and 1 zero-fat diet. ...... and a partridge in a pear tree John "RodS" <fred@fred.com> a écrit ... >> Well..probably they will claim we are all nuts and they always advocated >> carb conrol as a way to manage bg...lol. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > So maybe 12 grains of rice will become official dogma. ... when it used to be 5 loaves and 2 fishes ? > Wow..so what are the "you must eat most of your calories from carbs and > follow the ada at all costs" people gonna do now? I will still recommend newbies work with a dietitian. > Well..probably they will claim we are all nuts and they always advocated > carb conrol as a way to manage bg...lol. I agree, just because I do better on a diet higher in carbs does not mean I do not control the amount I eat. My diet from day 1 has motivated me to become more active which in the long run is much better for my body and mind. Nice troll and you will be happy to know that comments like yours have always been welcomed against fellow diabetics that post here. It is also why I strongly recommend the message boards at the ADA where all diabetics are welcomed and jokes like this are not. I still post there but being I actually have a job I dont have as much time as some others. Nice troll tho. SignatureTom www.TomsDiabeticDiary.com Chat in peace with other diabetes at the American Diabetes Associations Web Site. http://community.diabetes.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?nav=index&webtag=amdiabetesz&redi rCnt=1 Information You Can "Trust" From Your American Diabetes Association www.diabetes.org Information on Specific Types of Fat. http://www.diabetes.org/nutrition-and-recipes/nutrition/foodlabel/specific-fats.jsp > KROM > [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] >> http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com >> Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts also this is not the first time this post has been posted. it gets posted every so often >also this is not the first time this post has been posted. it gets posted >every so often It was posted for the first time in "Diabetes in Control" yesterday. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. >>also this is not the first time this post has been posted. it gets posted >>every so often [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. I am not surprised that I would read something like that on a site that has Atkins and Bernstein ads but not on the ADA web site. this is not the first time a post was made here saying the ADA is changing its thinking. I did not say the other posts and I don't have the time to find them but I will save this post. as for me I will continue telling newbie's they have a choice on what kind of diet to follow but strongly suggest they get help from a dietitian. We all have different needs and those needs change as our bodies change. SignatureTom www.TomsDiabeticDiary.com Chat in peace with other diabetes at the American Diabetes Associations Web Site. http://community.diabetes.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?nav=index&webtag=amdiabetesz&redi rCnt=1 Information You Can "Trust" From Your American Diabetes Association www.diabetes.org Information on Specific Types of Fat. http://www.diabetes.org/nutrition-and-recipes/nutrition/foodlabel/specific-fats.jsp >>>also this is not the first time this post has been posted. it gets posted >>>every so often [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >strongly suggest they get help from a dietitian. We all have different >needs and those needs change as our bodies change. Tom, this may seem like a novel concept to you, but it can be very useful to actually read the information at the web-site when someone posts a url. Usefel in the sense that you then know what the discussion is about before commenting on it. My opening words in the initial post were: "Just arrived in the "Diabetes in Control" newsletter, which is supported by Bernstein. http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/results.php?storyarticle=5299 "ADA To Change Thinking On Low Carb Diets? " Now you write: >>>also this is not the first time this post has been posted. it gets posted >>>every so often followed by, when told it was only published this week: >>I am not surprised that I would read something like that on a site that has >>Atkins and Bernstein ads but not on the ADA web site. Do you ever feel you're missing something? Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. Martin Luther King Jr. > also this is not the first time this post has been posted. it gets posted > every so often Um... Oooooookay. >also this is not the first time this post has been posted. it gets posted >every so often the article posted came from this issue: Diabetes in Control.com Newsletter The Newsletter for Professionals in Diabetes Care "November 21, 2007 - Issue #391 So how and when was it posted before? SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > also this is not the first time this post has been posted. it gets posted > every so often WTF? The ADA have never, prior to this time, ever made a statement even remotely like that. > news:fi0vv4$f1m$1@aioe.org... > > > Wow..so what are the "you must eat most of your calories from carbs and > > follow the ada at all costs" people gonna do now? > > I will still recommend newbies work with a dietitian. I do, too. Most people who are newly diagnosed with diabetes know very little about the disease. It's a complicated one and working with a professional is key to starting to understand the many lifestyle changes that someone has to make. A doctor, preferably and endo, along with a nurtitionist, CDE, and attending some diabetes groups...in person not on the Internet...will provide a foundation upon which a newly diagnosed diabetic can build. It's not a disease where someone learns all they need to know in a couple of months and then moves on. For me, as with most diabetics, learning about the disease is an ongoing lifelong "adventure." > > Well..probably they will claim we are all nuts and they always advocated > > carb conrol as a way to manage bg...lol. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > which in the long run > is much better for my body and mind. Knowing the ADA they won't be so foolish as to give a specific "eat this many carbs" a day mandate. What really constitutes low carb anyway? Many people would call what I eat "low carb" but in this newsgroup I have been labeled an ADA high carber. :) Whatever changes they make to their dietary recommendations I would be willing to wager it won't be anything extreme and it won't be enough to satisfy the low carb advocates in here or other sites. Hopefully, the ADA will continue to drive home the point that everyone is different and we each must work with a professional to determine what our particular needs are. > Nice troll and you will be happy to know that comments like yours have > always been welcomed [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > being I actually have a job I dont have as much time as some others. > Nice troll tho. I took the bait in this case because I think so many things about the ADA get misrepresented or joked about that there needs to be at least a couple of opinions that are contrary to the majority anti-ADAspeak that gets posted here. I have no problem with any "side" proclaiming what they feel is the right approach to diabetes, but in turn I expect those people to allow an alternate viewpoint. In my opinion, one change the ADA might consider is separating the "Weight Loss & Exercise" button on their opening page. Both are extremely important and shouldn't be lumped together. It dilutes the importance of each one. But I do like what they have to say about exercise and how important it is to all diabetics. My thoughts on a Wednesday. Kurt >It is also why I strongly >recommend the message boards >at the ADA where all diabetics are welcomed and jokes like this are not. I >still post there but >being I actually have a job I dont have as much time as some others. You do? I must have missed you. You must use a totally different style there. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts >>It is also why I strongly >>recommend the message boards [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >You do? I must have missed you. You must use a totally >different style there. not to mention a different name. but hiding behind another name after getting in trouble under a known name is not unusual for sushiboy aka howmany names now? SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > Wow..so what are the "you must eat most of your calories from carbs and > follow the ada at all costs" people gonna do now? Eat my carbs, same as before. > Well..probably they will claim we are all nuts and they always advocated > carb conrol as a way to manage bg...lol. Nope. Enjoy your 5 grams of carbs per day. > KROM > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > - Show quoted text - > Wow..so what are the "you must eat most of your calories from carbs and > follow the ada at all costs" people gonna do now? > > Well..probably they will claim we are all nuts and they always advocated > carb conrol as a way to manage bg...lol. Or that they always advocated "never question or criticize the experts." SignatureWes Groleau http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/ For lovers of language and learning > Or that they always advocated > "never question or criticize the experts." "He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother." SignatureWes Groleau Don't get even -- get odd! The ADA's dietary advice is to work with a dietitian they dont want newbies to create a diet based on what is on their page. They have for a very long time supported diets ranging from 40% fat way down to ultra low fat for some people. they do not believe in the one size fits all that is in many books. While what is written on their page may some day change. they never said ALL diabetics should eat 65% carbs but to work with a dietitian. also while others here know this but it does not work well in when they do their finger pointing. I have always felt diabetics should have a choice between low fat or high fat diets. For me tho low carb is not the way to go. SignatureTom www.TomsDiabeticDiary.com Chat in peace with other diabetes at the American Diabetes Associations Web Site. http://community.diabetes.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?nav=index&webtag=amdiabetesz&redi rCnt=1 Information You Can "Trust" From Your American Diabetes Association www.diabetes.org Information on Specific Types of Fat. http://www.diabetes.org/nutrition-and-recipes/nutrition/foodlabel/specific-fats.jsp > For me tho low carb is not the way to go. Tom, glad you've found what works for you. How did you control your bg levels when you were laid up all that time with a bad back ? cheers Paul >The ADA's dietary advice is to work with a dietitian they dont want newbies >to create a diet based on [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >ALL diabetics should eat 65% carbs but >to work with a dietitian. every dietician I have worked with has always ignored the ADA basic guidelines and had me work for a diet that did not require me to increase insulin simply to eat more. Which meant moderate carb intake. >also while others here know this but it does not work well in when they do >their finger pointing. >I have always felt diabetics should have a choice between low fat or high >fat diets. since you are not a diabetic dietician, and you have only followed your wife's diet created for her needs, (by your own admission), your opinion about what a dietician would say for a diabetic is dubious. >For me tho low carb is not the way to go. Good for you, no one is preventing you from following your own choices. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . <stuff> not relevant to my question. Mack, please excuse the hijacking of this part of the thread, but there is an important question I have to ask. Could you have a look at http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.support.diabetes/browse_thread/thread/28c1d125 2e3fe523/7dbfd3e8e425f932?hl=en&lnk=st&q=%22Thermodynamics%2C+again%22+group%3Aa lt.support.diabetes#7dbfd3e8e425f932 If that wraps, try http://tinyurl.com/18r or, if you want to preview the target, http://preview.tinyurl.com/18r It's a Google Groups search result for a message, seemingly from you, in the thread entitled "Thermodynamics, again". On that page, do a search for "On Nov 20, 4:59 pm" This will take you to a post by Randy, followed by a post from you, in which a URL is quoted from Randy's message, but is modified, and which takes you to a porn site. Thanks. SignatureLarry, T2, Saskatchewan, Canada. DX 24 Aug 07. D&E Metformin 2000mg, Ramipril, Simvastatin Last A1c 8.1 (at DX) ><stuff> not relevant to my question. > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Thanks. already answered. the site he posting a link to is a scam site selling a weight loss book. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >><stuff> not relevant to my question. >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >the site he posting a link to is a scam site selling a weight loss >book. Fine, but the way to counter that is to tell folks it's a scam, not to change the URL to a porn site index. You disappoint me, Mack. You really do. I thought you were better than that. SignatureLarry, T2, Saskatchewan, Canada. DX 24 Aug 07. D&E Metformin 2000mg, Ramipril, Simvastatin Last A1c 8.1 (at DX) >>><stuff> not relevant to my question. >>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >You disappoint me, Mack. You really do. I thought you were better than >that. it was not changed to a porn site index. that is how your pc software is interpreting it when trying find something close enough to the address. even with the typo it does not come up with anything linking to porn when I click on it. jumping to false conclusions and then telling me are disappointed in me because of action I did not take, doesn't bother me. many people jump to conclusions without facts. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >>>><stuff> not relevant to my question. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >address. even with the typo it does not come up with anything linking >to porn when I click on it. 1. You obviously don't know don't how DNS works 2. You obviously don't realize that the actions of a site when a file is not found, are under the control of the contents of that site as provided by the web site's authors. Frankly, I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt when it came to the way the address was munged, but I am becoming less inclined to do so as you say more, because you don't seem to realize that your action was inappropriate. >jumping to false conclusions and then telling me are disappointed in >me because of action I did not take, doesn't bother me. many people >jump to conclusions without facts. I did not jump to a false conclusion. You changed a the contents of a quoted posting, and that is totally unacceptable. This is an accusation that you have admitted to, and is, therefor, not a false one. I am indeed disappointed in you, but not because of the resulting destination of the URL, but because you presented it as another participant's words. That, sir, is dishonest. SignatureLarry, T2, Saskatchewan, Canada. DX 24 Aug 07. D&E Metformin 2000mg, Ramipril, Simvastatin Last A1c 8.1 (at DX) >I did not jump to a false conclusion. You changed a the contents of a >quoted posting, and that is totally unacceptable. This is an >accusation that you have admitted to, and is, therefor, not a false >one. it is a practice that has been in use for a very long time. And Not just by me in this group and others. just because you do not like it, does not mean a thing to the rest of he world. >I am indeed disappointed in you, but not because of the resulting >destination of the URL, but because you presented it as another >participant's words. That, sir, is dishonest. no sir it is not. changing the url to something sarcastic is simply being sarcastic. I hope you choose to have a better day. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >> it was not changed to a porn site index. that is how your pc software >> is interpreting it when trying find something close enough to the >> address. even with the typo it does not come up with anything linking >> to porn when I click on it. Giving Mack _and_ Oleg the benefit of the doubt, probably the address happened to have pron put on it after Mack posted it, but discovered and deleted by the hosting company after Oleg clicked on it. Still, perhaps changing a scam site's URI to "(harmful scam deleted)" is better than merely altering it. But _either_ is better than reposting garbage like so many people do! SignatureWes Groleau Change is inevitable. We need to learn that "inevitable" is neither a synonym for "good" nor for "bad." -- WWG >>> it was not changed to a porn site index. that is how your pc software >>> is interpreting it when trying find something close enough to the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >but discovered and deleted by the hosting company after Oleg >clicked on it. No, it's still there. And yes, I do know how to make the page reload. >Still, perhaps changing a scam site's URI to >"(harmful scam deleted)" is better than merely altering it. Yes indeed. >But _either_ is better than reposting garbage like so many people do! I disagree. Changing another person's words and presenting them as a quote is dishonest and abhorrent. SignatureLarry, T2, Saskatchewan, Canada. DX 24 Aug 07. D&E Metformin 2000mg, Ramipril, Simvastatin Last A1c 8.1 (at DX) > I disagree. Changing another person's words and presenting them as a > quote is dishonest and abhorrent. When it's done so we know they've been changed, it's not dishonest. And how can altering abhorrent material be abhorrent? SignatureWes Groleau ----------- "Thinking I'm dumb gives people something to feel smug about. Why should I disillusion them?" -- Charles Wallace (in _A_Wrinkle_In_Time_) >> I disagree. Changing another person's words and presenting them as a >> quote is dishonest and abhorrent. > >When it's done so we know they've been changed, it's not dishonest. > >And how can altering abhorrent material be abhorrent? There are plenty of ways to get your point across without altering another poster's words and presenting them as if quoted. Snipping the actual link, noting that it's been snipped, and presenting an altered link as your own words, comes immediately to mind. Anyway, enough. I've killfiled Mack. I am done with trying to get him to see the error of his ways, and I'n sure not going to spend much time on anyone who can't see that what he did is unacceptable. SignatureLarry, T2, Saskatchewan, Canada. DX 24 Aug 07. D&E Metformin 2000mg, Ramipril, Simvastatin Last A1c 8.1 (at DX) >Anyway, enough. I've killfiled Mack. I am done with trying to get him >to see the error of his ways, and I'n sure not going to spend much >time on anyone who can't see that what he did is unacceptable. your control issues aside, did even bother to read the pdf file from the scammer's web site then read the opening page of the scammer's web site and see how both are little more than just a mirror image of the other? I hope you are having a better day. I'm getting ready to pack everything up in the cars and head over to the kid's house. Hope you are not spending your day alone. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >>Anyway, enough. I've killfiled Mack. I am done with trying to get him >>to see the error of his ways, and I'n sure not going to spend much >>time on anyone who can't see that what he did is unacceptable. > >your control issues aside, No control issues. I just don't have time to deal with dishonesty. > did even bother to read the pdf file from >the scammer's web site then read the opening page of the scammer's web >site and see how both are little more than just a mirror image of the >other? Yes, but it has nothing to do with you changing another poster's words and presenting them as his. >I hope you are having a better day. I'm getting ready to pack >everything up in the cars and head over to the kid's house. Hope you >are not spending your day alone. I never spend my days alone. Slightly changing your name is a rather childish thing to do. SignatureLarry, T2, Saskatchewan, Canada. DX 24 Aug 07. D&E Metformin 2000mg, Ramipril, Simvastatin Last A1c 8.1 (at DX) >> did even bother to read the pdf file from >>the scammer's web site then read the opening page of the scammer's web >>site and see how both are little more than just a mirror image of the >>other? > >Yes, so was it or was it not what I said it was. if not, why not? SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >>>Anyway, enough. I've killfiled Mack. I am done with trying to get him >>>to see the error of his ways, and I'n sure not going to spend much [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > No control issues. I just don't have time to deal with dishonesty. No, time???? You seem to have PLENTY to obsess over nothing much! Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >No, time???? I started to say "I have no time to continue to deal with dishonesty", but went to change it to "I don't have the patience...". So sue me >You seem to have PLENTY to obsess over nothing much! I am completely amazed at the apathy I find here when it comes to issues like this. It teaches me that I should keep my opinions to myself, lest I step on someone's pet theory and become a target of an "anything goes" regular. SignatureLarry, T2, Saskatchewan, Canada. DX 24 Aug 07. D&E Metformin 2000mg, Ramipril, Simvastatin Last A1c 8.1 (at DX) > >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > myself, lest I step on someone's pet theory and become a target of an > "anything goes" regular. Don't let a few vocal bullies run you off, Larry. You have just as much right to post here as anyone else and hearing an alternative opinion to the mobspeak is not only welcomed, it's necessary. If you want to see obsession, stick around and watch the obsession over the ADA, low carb diets, amateur advice over professional, doctor bashing, something Tom wrote years ago taken out of context of what happened back then, and on and on. You've been chastised for not letting this go after just a day and a half. Yeah, that's obsession. :) Like I said in a previous post(s) the majority of people in the newsgroup are very supportive and helpful. And this is a good and unmoderated forum in which people exchange diabetes information. Don't let a couple of jerks get in the way of participating. I look forward to your continued involvement. Kurt >> >x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >Don't let a couple of jerks get in the way of participating. I look >forward to your continued involvement. O, I won't be running off. I'll just not bother to argue with anyone who would (or who would condone), browbeating, personal attacks, misquoting, and so on. Funny thing is, I pretty much agree with the low-carb crowd, because it seems to work for me. That being said, however, I sure have seen some bad behaviour on the part of those who think the same. SignatureLarry, T2, Saskatchewan, Canada. DX 24 Aug 07. D&E Metformin 2000mg, Ramipril, Simvastatin Last A1c 8.1 (at DX) > Funny thing is, I pretty much agree with the low-carb crowd, because > it seems to work for me. That being said, however, I sure have seen > some bad behaviour on the part of those who think the same. Agreeing with someone on one point does not necessarily mean you'll agree with them on others. More importantly, liking people and agreeing with them are not necessarily correlated. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ Jackie Patti wrote in message <474745ff$0$27014$470ef3ce@news.pa.net>... >More importantly, liking people and agreeing with them are not >necessarily correlated. A big huge ditto on that one Jackie. Cheri >>> >x-no-archive: yes >>> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > it seems to work for me. That being said, however, I sure have seen > some bad behaviour on the part of those who think the same. As you can tell from my posts, with a couple of notable objections, I pretty much get along with everyone. I don't try to browbeat or pretend that MY viewpoint is the one that matters. That being said, I have gone back and checked out where Mack has done the things you describe. To be honest, I see nothing disingenuous or malicious. To me, what he does is parody. Some of them are kind of funny actually. Do you think any of Weird Al's parodies were done with malicious intent? IMHO, you should look at them in the spirit they were intended. You are free to do as you please of course, but sometimes you just have to look at things with different eyes. SignatureT2 - DX Oct. '96 - Lantus, oral meds, and diet Remember...the only stupid question is the one you DIDN'T ask. You know what to do with the addy, to reply by email > I am completely amazed at the apathy I find here when it comes to > issues like this. It teaches me that I should keep my opinions to > myself, lest I step on someone's pet theory and become a target of an > "anything goes" regular. Not at all. You should just stop being so concerned about how others behave on usenet and forget about trying to modify their behavior, using kill files if that fails. Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >usenet and forget about trying to modify their behavior, using kill >files if that fails. When arguing a point of view, there are a number of techniques which are considered to be dishonest. "Strawman, personal attack, argument from authority, and so on. This is not confined to usenet. Rather it is the basis of civilized disagreement and debate. I can and will use killfiles. I remain appalled at the acceptance of argument by deliberate misquote. SignatureLarry, T2, Saskatchewan, Canada. DX 24 Aug 07. D&E Metformin 2000mg, Ramipril, Simvastatin Last A1c 8.1 (at DX) >>x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I can and will use killfiles. I remain appalled at the acceptance of > argument by deliberate misquote. I saw nothing wrong with what he did. > When arguing a point of view, there are a number of techniques which > are considered to be dishonest. "Strawman, personal attack, argument [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I can and will use killfiles. I remain appalled at the acceptance of > argument by deliberate misquote. I do, too, but I don't think that was a point in debate, I think it was mistinterpreted as such. It's not a practice I engage in nor endorse, please understand, just one that's not uncommon among those who feel particularly vigilant about policing commercial links on usenet, and not one it's worth expending time an energy discussing. IMO, of course. Susan >When arguing a point of view, there are a number of techniques which >are considered to be dishonest. "Strawman, personal attack, argument [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I can and will use killfiles. I remain appalled at the acceptance of >argument by deliberate misquote. Larry, you seemed like a reasonable bloke until this thing came up. You've made your point. Ad nauseum. The horse is well and truly dead and turned into chevalburgers, flogging it further is pointless. Would you please do whatever you have to do, killfile those you feel you need to, and then get on with it. Eventually you may find your killfiles redundant if those in your kf already have you in theirs. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts >>When arguing a point of view, there are a number of techniques which >>are considered to be dishonest. "Strawman, personal attack, argument [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >truly dead and turned into chevalburgers, flogging it >further is pointless. I have tried to stop flogging it, Alan, and posts like yours, as well as those from a few others, are in the way of me doing that. >Would you please do whatever you have to do, killfile those >you feel you need to, and then get on with it. Eventually >you may find your killfiles redundant if those in your kf >already have you in theirs. SignatureLarry, T2, Saskatchewan, Canada. DX 24 Aug 07. D&E Metformin 2000mg, Ramipril, Simvastatin Last A1c 8.1 (at DX) > >>When arguing a point of view, there are a number of techniques which > >>are considered to be dishonest. "Strawman, personal attack, argument [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >you may find your killfiles redundant if those in your kf > >already have you in theirs. And you don't want to end up in Alan's killfile because he'll keep you there till just seconds before your next post hits his screen. And that could be devastating to him because replying would be as irresistible as a tub of pasta after 24 hours offline. Bob >>>When arguing a point of view, there are a number of techniques which >>>are considered to be dishonest. "Strawman, personal attack, argument [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >I have tried to stop flogging it, Alan, and posts like yours, as well >as those from a few others, are in the way of me doing that. Other people are in control of your life? so brilliant, yet so powerless. By the way, I didn't make this post because of you, I made it because I chose too. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >>>>When arguing a point of view, there are a number of techniques which >>>>are considered to be dishonest. "Strawman, personal attack, argument [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > By the way, I didn't make this post because of you, I made it because > I chose too. THIS IS MY QUOTE HE WHO HIDES BEHIND AN EMAIL IS FULL OF CRAP >>>>>When arguing a point of view, there are a number of techniques which >>>>>are considered to be dishonest. "Strawman, personal attack, argument [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > THIS IS MY QUOTE > HE WHO HIDES BEHIND AN EMAIL IS FULL OF CRAP Sounds like you don't know the difference between email and a newsgroup post, and the difference in the advisibility of using correct return addresses in the two. Looks like you don't know that posting in ALL CAPITALS is treated the same as shouting, and likely to get you ignored. Maybe you have an extreme case of constipation. > HE WHO HIDES BEHIND AN EMAIL IS FULL OF CRAP We who are enlightened should hide the email from he who is full of caps. SignatureWes Groleau Promote multi-use trails in northeast Indiana! http://www.NorthwestAllenTrails.org/ >> HE WHO HIDES BEHIND AN EMAIL IS FULL OF CRAP > >We who are enlightened should hide the email >from he who is full of caps. Gee, thanks, Wes - now I have some nice Shiraz on my keyboard : ) Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 100ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25 >> HE WHO HIDES BEHIND AN EMAIL IS FULL OF CRAP > > We who are enlightened should hide the email > from he who is full of caps. tinw >>x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >I can and will use killfiles. I remain appalled at the acceptance of >argument by deliberate misquote. so in this post you prove yourself a liar since you had no problem with randy's "punk a.s bitch" language. your so called value system is apparently inconsistent. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:11:02 -0600, in alt.support.diabetes <879ek3th46o24mtbtju7rs0oof32b4av2d@4ax.com> Oleg Lego <rat@atatatat.com> wrote: > I started to say "I have no time to continue to deal with dishonesty", > but went to change it to "I don't have the patience...". So sue me [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > myself, lest I step on someone's pet theory and become a target of an > "anything goes" regular. I thought you had already put this away & I was a day late? Oops, huh? Far from apathetic ... SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel "A skilled writer is always aware of how he wants his readers to feel at any given moment in the story. Mastering the art of setups and payoffs will help ensure that whoever reads your work will keep asking for more - and this is how literary careers are built." - William Kowalski, The Writer, April 2007 >On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:11:02 -0600, in alt.support.diabetes ><879ek3th46o24mtbtju7rs0oof32b4av2d@4ax.com> Oleg Lego <rat@atatatat.com> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >I thought you had already put this away & I was a day late? Seems I am not being allowed to put it away. >Oops, huh? > >Far from apathetic ... SignatureLarry, T2, Saskatchewan, Canada. DX 24 Aug 07. D&E Metformin 2000mg, Ramipril, Simvastatin Last A1c 8.1 (at DX) In alt.support.diabetes on Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:25:06 -0600 in Msg.# <htgfk39gbpl97u7n6qgng7chbm5pue3gkf@4ax.com>, Oleg Lego <rat@atatatat.com> wrote: > >On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:11:02 -0600, in alt.support.diabetes > ><879ek3th46o24mtbtju7rs0oof32b4av2d@4ax.com> Oleg Lego <rat@atatatat.com> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Seems I am not being allowed to put it away. Really?!! I can't imagine how anyone could prevent you via Usenet. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "A little simplification would be the first step toward rational living, I think." - Eleanor Roosevelt (1884-1962) US first lady >I am completely amazed at the apathy I find here when it comes to >issues like this. It teaches me that I should keep my opinions to >myself, lest I step on someone's pet theory and become a target of an >"anything goes" regular. hook, line and Wes Wrote: > When it's done so we know they've been changed, it's not dishonest. > And how can altering abhorrent material be abhorrent? The link to the pdf I posted is neither spam or "abhorrent". Justifying Mack behavour on this point groundless. I'd welcome Frank,s view on this as he acutally read the pdf. He also a fair guy that usually disagrees with me. Randy . Hi Randy: > Wes Wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Randy I suspect that a lot of people know more about netiquette than I do. I have seen Mack's post since about the Fall of 2002 and he is generally a protector of the diabetes newsgroups from spammers, trolls, and psychopaths. Some of them like Chung and Ironjustice just won't go away. I did read Chapters 1 to 3 of the so called critique. The guy was spamming his book no doubt. Yet as I mentioned before and this is conditional since I have never read anything to my recollection written by Michael Eades. The chapter 2 critique of Eades in regard to comparing Keyes' study to a more recent one with quite different subjects and much less calorie restriction was valid. This not to say that I don't have problems with Keyes use of rabbits in his cholesterol studies, i.e., rabbits while mammals are not omnivores. Both spammers and trolls are a big pain in this media. I did not get a porno site with the link that appeared to me, yet I would agree with the general consensus that the link could have been just as easily omitted. I suspect the author of the critique was not that knowledgeable of the biological sciences and I would not have used him as a source myself. You have not done a lot of posting that has been archived with your e-mail address that you have used here. Most of your posts elsewhere have been related to computers, but this changed in 2007 - http://tinyurl.com/2r2t63. In alt.support.diabetes Oleg Lego <rat@atatatat.com> wrote: >>>> it was not changed to a porn site index. that is how your pc software >>>> is interpreting it when trying find something close enough to the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>but discovered and deleted by the hosting company after Oleg >>clicked on it. > No, it's still there. And yes, I do know how to make the page reload. >>Still, perhaps changing a scam site's URI to >>"(harmful scam deleted)" is better than merely altering it. > Yes indeed. >>But _either_ is better than reposting garbage like so many people do! > I disagree. Changing another person's words and presenting them as a > quote is dishonest and abhorrent. That's not what happened here. It wasn't words that were changed, but an URL which was believed to be a scam, and it was changed to insert the word "scam" into it. If more people had paused and looked again before posting then 95% of what has been posted on this topic wouldn't even have been written. SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] > That's not what happened here. It wasn't words that were changed, but > an URL which was believed to be a scam, and it was changed to insert > the word "scam" into it. It's one thing to go cyber cop on anonymous hit-and-run spammers and it's another to purposely change a link posted by a known poster. Randy has been posting in this newsgroup for some time and has established himself. Altering his link was wrong no matter how someone, and their buddies, try to justify it. Most sites come with some sort of "spam" if you really want to call it that. Someone posted a Gretchen Becker article the other day and it contained advertisements...why not protect us from that spam? Blog sites are posted here all the time and if you go to them there are a number of advertisements on them...why not protect us from that spam? I'll tell you why, because ads are a part of a getting free information. You don't have to buy the books advertised or click on the links that take you to pay services. Just read the info and move on. Easy. Randy deserves an apology and to anyone with a modicum of objectivity he is not a spammer and did not deserve what was done to him. The fact that people are justifying the hostile act towards him speaks volumes about the mob mentality that permeates this newsgroup by a vocal few. It's just plain wrong. Kurt >> That's not what happened here. It wasn't words that were changed, but >> an URL which was believed to be a scam, and it was changed to insert [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >someone, and their buddies, try to justify it. Most sites come with >some sort of "spam" if you really want to call it that. the only real reason you joined in on this is the same reason you always do, to argue against the anyone you do not like and to egg on arguments between posters while you sit back and laugh at everyone involved including Randy. The issue with the site he quoted wasn't spam, as they(the people who run the site) weren't spamming us. It was that Randy, as brilliant as he thinks himself to be, was quoting a scam site/ SCAM, and he actually believed it was a legit and trustworthy source of info. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > >> it was not changed to a porn site index. that is how your pc software > >> is interpreting it when trying find something close enough to the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > neither a synonym for "good" nor for "bad." > -- WWG The link I posted was not spam. Period. All justifications on Mack behavour based on this supposition is false I would welcome Frank's (Jefferson's) input oh this as he actually took the time to read the PDF, and is fair minded. Randy Look, people have had ample time to consider this & digest it. [cough, cough, ahem, late after Turkey Day] And, people have reached their own conclusions about what was or wasn't spam & what was or wasn't appropriate munging of a spam URL. Things have devolved into repetition. Why not just put it away? Top posting, unusually, for cause. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "A good cup of tea is better than sex." - Boy George In alt.support.diabetes on Thu, 22 Nov 2007 00:24:42 -0600 in Msg.# <t28ak3l3c3v9bsnibduva5lh1vi1v6mlgf@4ax.com>, Oleg Lego <rat@atatatat.com> wrote: > >><stuff> not relevant to my question. > >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > You disappoint me, Mack. You really do. I thought you were better than > that. >Things have devolved into repetition. Why not just >put it away? May I borrow your quote to copy/paste into 90% of the threads in about 30 other groups that I follow? LoL :-) Port In alt.support.diabetes on Fri, 23 Nov 2007 06:36:22 -0600 in Msg.# > >Things have devolved into repetition. Why not just > >put it away? > > May I borrow your quote to copy/paste into 90% of the threads in about > 30 other groups that I follow? LoL :-) Hey, you betcha! SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "A little simplification would be the first step toward rational living, I think." - Eleanor Roosevelt (1884-1962) US first lady >DonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 > >"A good cup of tea is better than sex." - Boy George From what I've seen of Boy George, that's probably wrongly attributed. His partner is the more likely source:-) He is one weird, er, guy. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts >>DonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 >> >>"A good cup of tea is better than sex." - Boy George > From what I've seen of Boy George, that's probably wrongly > attributed. His partner is the more likely source:-) > He is one weird, er, guy. He's less weird in the UK than in the less tolerant (ex) colonies. We Brits like our eccentrics. Like good wines they rarely travel well :-) SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] "Chris Malcolm" <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> a écrit ... >>>DonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > He's less weird in the UK than in the less tolerant (ex) colonies. We > Brits like our eccentrics. Like good wines they rarely travel well :-) Absolutely ! Take Prince What's-his-name, heir to the throne; messed up in family, job completed in Gordonstoune[?], he preferred a frumpy grandmother-like mother, to a charming half-her-age woman who had a mind of her own, and was allowed to keep it on condition she didn't express herslf outside her bedroom..... > From what I've seen of Boy George, that's probably wrongly > attributed. His partner is the more likely source:-) > > He is one weird, er, guy. I don't think so? What do you think is weird about him, other than his behavior while abusing drugs, which is far from unusual? Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I don't think so? What do you think is weird about him, other than his > behavior while abusing drugs, which is far from unusual? I like him. He's so cute! I just want to run up and give him a hug! Alan S wrote in message <6vjdk3tvhn62vetbj8hi30st7h8r378h60@4ax.com>... >>DonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >He is one weird, er, guy. I've always loved Boy George and his music. :-) Cheri > >From what I've seen of Boy George, that's probably wrongly > >attributed. His partner is the more likely source:-) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Cheri He is a part of music history and it's sad to see he's fallen on bad times lately. Most creative types are a little "weird" compared to the average person...but weird in a good way. Now, if you really want to see the living definition of weird then spend an afternoon with an accountant...creepy! :) Kurt In alt.support.diabetes on Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:06:10 +1100 in Msg.# <6vjdk3tvhn62vetbj8hi30st7h8r378h60@4ax.com>, Alan S <loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote: > >"A good cup of tea is better than sex." - Boy George > > From what I've seen of Boy George, that's probably wrongly > attributed. His partner is the more likely source:-) > > He is one weird, er, guy. Yeah, he's a guy. But, I believe that the line is correctly attributed. I don't even know who his partner is, though. Who is he? SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "A house full of daughters is a cellar full of sour beer." - Dutch Proverb >> >"A good cup of tea is better than sex." - Boy George >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >I don't even know who his partner is, though. Who is he? No idea. Nor do I care whether it he or she. I'll admit to personal prejudice. I liked Karma Chameleon, but I detested him since his narcotics addictions became obvious. I have a problem with any public figure or role model who uses narcotics. I was unaware of this news when I made that comment, but it doesn't surprise me at all: http://ukpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5huvHp4S8aLiF1uNEV7K8sQykLgcw Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts Alan S wrote in message ...speaking of Boy George >No idea. Nor do I care whether it he or she. I'll admit to >personal prejudice. I liked Karma Chameleon, but I detested >him since his narcotics addictions became obvious. I have a >problem with any public figure or role model who uses >narcotics. I liked all of his songs in the old days, but I haven't kept track of him. If you have problems with public figures who used narcotics, you must have hated a whole lot of musicians that came out of the 60's, 70's, 80's etc. Personally, they fight their own demons, and I don't envy them that, but I love the music of Eric Clapton, Jim Morrision, Janice Joplin, Grace Slick etc., and I can't really separate them from it, so I don't detest the artists. YMMV Cheri > I liked all of his songs in the old days, but I haven't kept track of > him. If you have problems with public figures who used narcotics, you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Janice Joplin, Grace Slick etc., and I can't really separate them from > it, so I don't detest the artists. YMMV <*trying to figure out if I've ever liked a non druggie musician*> I don't believe that Alan was referring to drug use when he called Boy George weird. Drug use is truly quite ordinary, after all. Susan >I don't believe that Alan was referring to drug use when he called Boy >George weird. Drug use is truly quite ordinary, after all. > >Susan Maybe not, but he did say this, so...that's what I responded to. :-) Alan said...speaking of Boy George >No idea. Nor do I care whether it he or she. I'll admit to >personal prejudice. I liked Karma Chameleon, but I detested >him since his narcotics addictions became obvious. I have a >problem with any public figure or role model who uses >narcotics. In alt.support.diabetes on Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:15:47 +1100 in Msg.# <a78hk3tn1s948rg5g3oi30c2apjspuvitr@4ax.com>, Alan S <loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >"A good cup of tea is better than sex." - Boy George > >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > No idea. Nor do I care whether it he or she. I'll admit to > personal prejudice. ... Okay, so it has nothing at all to do with the likelihood of Boy George saying the above. Thanks. I'm glad we cleared that up. And, while we're at it, Boy George hasn't set himself up as a role model. SignatureDonnaB 06-07-06 Diagnosis T2 HbA1c 8.1, D&E & Metformin 500mg Current ................... HbA1c 5.3 "Always laugh when you can. It is cheap medicine." - Lord Byron >Okay, so it has nothing at all to do with the likelihood of Boy George >saying the above. Thanks. I'm glad we cleared that up. > >And, while we're at it, Boy George hasn't set himself up as a role model. I must admit I never realised I'd be opening such a can of worms. And yes, despite liking their songs, I did lose respect for those entertainers who used narcotics, more for those who used the hard stuff. Whether they want to be role models or not - they are. And kids copy them, thinking it's cool. I loved the Beatles songs, and Garland, and Minelli, and many others who used drugs including Johnny Cash. I can like the music without respecting the artist. However, a big difference was that Johnny went out of his way after he got clean to "set himself up as a role model"; at least I thought so and I respected him for that. As a side issue he was also T1 but that's a separate aspect. No-one has to agree with me, nor do I ask them to. Nor do I accept that lots of musos doing drugs makes it OK. And on Boy George being weird, it's the combination of his drug use, his androgynous appearance (no, that doesn't make me a homophobe - it just makes me think he looks weird) and his lifestyle that led me to use that glib remark that started this threadlet. Actually, my real view of this guy, using the terms of Basil Fawlty, is that he is a waste of space. I may not be right in your opinion, but I'm being honest about how I feel about someone like him. Like it or lump it, I won't be changing that. Not, of course, that the guy in question would be aware of my existence or care one iota about my opinion if he was. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts Alan S wrote in message <67oik359pru062t2mpcqgikhdi85mob0mp@4ax.com>... >loved the Beatles songs, and Garland, and Minelli, and many >others who used drugs including Johnny Cash. I can like the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >thought so and I respected him for that. As a side issue he >was also T1 but that's a separate aspect. Really, he was a type 1? I always heard he was an IDDM, and had gone undiagnosed for years. Cheri > Alan S wrote in message > <67oik359pru062t2mpcqgikhdi85mob0mp@4ax.com>... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Cheri I've been researching it a bit since I got home from work. johnnycash.com has no info and I spent far too much time listening to the music feed. I only found a small reference on some nondescript site that he was T2. Wikipedia says his diagnosis of Shy-Drager syndrome was actually a misdiagnosis of autonomic neuropathy. He spent time in the army, so his diagnosis would have been after that. T1s got cut loose from the army at diagnosis, I don't know if this still happens. The best site about famous diabetics, angelarose.com, doesn't seem to want to work for me. I can get the main page but can't get the list. Dunno why, but I'm still learning XP. Maybe I've got something turned off somewhere that I shouldn't have. Vicki >> Alan S wrote in message >> <67oik359pru062t2mpcqgikhdi85mob0mp@4ax.com>... [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Dunno why, but I'm still learning XP. Maybe I've got something turned > off somewhere that I shouldn't have. I don't think it's you. I can't get the list to load either, and I'm not using XP. TaniO > Vicki In alt.support.diabetes on Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:36:48 -0500 in Msg.# <0001HW.C36F6330024C6467B01AD9AF@news.east.earthlink.net>, TaniO <aobensam@earthlink.net> wrote: > > I've been researching it a bit since I got home from work. > > johnnycash.com has no info and I spent far too much time listening to [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I don't think it's you. I can't get the list to load either, and I'm not > using XP. I have it loaded right now. ... Hmm, nope. The intro page & thanks page loads but not the other pages. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "Comfort and prosperity have never enriched the world as much as adversity has. Out of pain and problems have come the sweetest songs, and the most gripping stories." - Billy Graham >> Alan S wrote in message >> <67oik359pru062t2mpcqgikhdi85mob0mp@4ax.com>... [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >Vicki I'll stand corrected on his type. I know he died of "complications from diabetes" and I vaguely recalled others here mentioning he was type 1, but I have no certainty of it. In doing some checking, I was surprised to find his backing group's families included diabetics too: http://www.diabetes.org/aboutus/celebrity-corner-4.jsp Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts http://angelarose.com/FamousDiabetics/DiabetesThanks.html You had to wave your mouse over parts of the dialogue to find hyperlinks. Not a particularly good way of setting up a website. >> Alan S wrote in message >> <67oik359pru062t2mpcqgikhdi85mob0mp@4ax.com>... [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Vicki Wait, that's only the thank you list! >> Alan S wrote in message >> <67oik359pru062t2mpcqgikhdi85mob0mp@4ax.com>... [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Vicki >Alan S wrote in message ><67oik359pru062t2mpcqgikhdi85mob0mp@4ax.com>... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Cheri ¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿??????????? In alt.support.diabetes on Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:11:52 +1100 in Msg.# <67oik359pru062t2mpcqgikhdi85mob0mp@4ax.com>, Alan S <loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote: > >Okay, so it has nothing at all to do with the likelihood of Boy George > >saying the above. Thanks. I'm glad we cleared that up. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I must admit I never realised I'd be opening such a can of > worms. I am surprised that you're surprised. > And yes, despite liking their songs, I did lose respect for > those entertainers who used narcotics, more for those who [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > clean to "set himself up as a role model"; at least I > thought so and I respected him for that. As far as I know the last thing Johnny Cash wanted was to set himself up as a role model. > I may not be right in your opinion, but I'm being honest > about how I feel about someone like him. ... Yeah, someone like him, a human being. Of course, I think it's appalling that someone would be labeled 'weird looking' for an androgynous appearance. And, I still say that the quote in question is likely properly attributed to him & have no idea what partner you were referring to. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "Anticipate the good so that you may enjoy it." - Ethiopian Proverb > Of course, I think it's appalling that someone would be labeled 'weird > looking' for an androgynous appearance. What she said. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > > > Of course, I think it's appalling that someone would be labeled 'weird > > looking' for an androgynous appearance. > > What she said. Oooh! May I pile on? I have found, for myself, that "wierd looking" becomes "how Mary or Joe or Shameel looks" after a while -- if I remember that I'm talking about a human being and get to know them a bit. Priscilla, no beauty queen herself >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > or Shameel looks" after a while -- if I remember that I'm talking about > a human being and get to know them a bit. I may be on the wrong track here but I read Alan's comment as finding Boy George's use of make up, eyebrow plucking etc as looking weird. People have the right to find things wierd or un-appealing. Some may find paris hilton attractive depite her drug abuses etc...me i think the she looks like a wet rat drugs or not. She shes a human but a messed up one..and again we all have the right to preferences etc..its wrong when we ACT upon those preferences in a way that harms another person. I am a black male..i dont expect a lesbian white girl to find me attractive..she might..she might not..lol..its what makes the world spin...differences and those that like ours. So alan has the right to find boy george "wierd"..and his drug use bad..he isnt going to attack the man or say hateful things about him..he simple doesnt feel the mans vibe..who cares... As the sat night live charactoer says.."simmah down nah!" KROM "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote > > I may be on the wrong track here but I read Alan's comment as finding Boy > George's use of make up, eyebrow plucking etc as looking weird. In alt.support.diabetes on Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:53:28 -0600 in Msg.# > People have the right to find things wierd or un-appealing. And others have the 'right' to object to it. > I am a black male..i dont expect a lesbian white girl to find me > attractive..she might..she might not..lol..its what makes the world [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > isnt going to attack the man or say hateful things about him..he simple > doesnt feel the mans vibe..who cares... Exactly, why in the world would anyone need to be attracted to someone to NOT find them weird looking ... you wouldn't. If we all thought that everyone we weren't attracted to was 'weird', it would make the world a pretty messed up place. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel "... a person is either with this court or he must be counted against it, there be no road between." - THE CRUCIBLE, Act 3, Scene 1, Arthur Miller [10/17/1915 - 2/10/2005] Not messed up..interesting..i may find a goth girl stunning and beautiful..some might think she hideous...doesnt matter..again as long as they dont deny the goth girl jobs and same treatment as everyone else..if we all thought the same thing was attractive THEN life would be dull....its the differences and preferences that makes life interesting. The fact your mate found YOU appealing and not sombody else was a good thing..lol. To claim you find everyone beautiful is a lie and human nature...otherwise youd be married to the ugly hairy guy with the banna hammok and comb over. Good thing is sombody else might and he is happy and so are you with the person you were drawn to. By your way of thinking if alan doesnt have a right to object to boy georges looks then we cant find skin heads or neo nazis un-appealing cause after all they are just people who dress different... Bottom line is dont hog pile on poor alan cause he finds a certain entertainer un-appealing..i bet i can find a entertainer you dont like either like maybe a gangsta rapper or whatever...we all got likes and dislikes..i know we all want to be sure it wasnt because of the mans sexual proefernces etc and he said it wasnt so the rest is not somthing to beat him up about. KROM > In alt.support.diabetes on Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:53:28 -0600 in Msg.# > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > everyone we weren't attracted to was 'weird', it would make the world a > pretty messed up place. In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:22:57 -0600 in Msg.# > Not messed up..interesting.. Right, interesting is the end result of diversity NOT the end result of different being 'weird looking'. > beautiful..some might think she hideous...doesnt matter..again as long as > they dont deny the goth girl jobs and same treatment as everyone else..if we > all thought the same thing was attractive THEN life would be dull....its the > differences and preferences that makes life interesting. > The fact your mate found YOU appealing and not sombody else was a good > thing..lol. We're talking past each other. I'm not speaking of what or who someone is attracted to. There is much more to diversity than just someone is attracted to! This isn't about pheromones or preferences. This is about tolerance as opposed to pointing at someone on the subway. > To claim you find everyone beautiful is a lie and human nature. Nor is anyone speaking of that. > By your way of thinking if alan doesnt have a right to object Full Stop. I didn't say that. I pointed out that while he has the 'right' to say that, that I have the right to disagree with it. You can't have it just one way. > to boy georges > looks then we cant find skin heads or neo nazis un-appealing cause after all > they are just people who dress different... There's nothing about Boy George's 'look' that relates to someone's opinion of the look of skinheads, but then the look of skinheads isn't the issue with them, anyway, now, is it? > Bottom line is dont hog pile on poor alan cause he finds a certain > entertainer un-appealing. And, NO ONE has done so. Alan's said what he has thought. A few of us have said that we disagree with him & why. That's life. That is civilly disagreeing. Hog Pile? Poor Alan?!!! GMAB. > i bet i can find a entertainer you dont like > either like maybe a gangsta rapper or whatever. ARGH. He didn't say he didn't like him. He said he thought he was weird looking. They're totally different things. They're so totally different that they are unrelated. > ..we all got likes and dislikes. Yup. And, that has zip to do with what's been said. > i know we all want to be sure it wasnt because of the mans sexual > proefernces etc and he said it wasnt so the rest is not somthing to beat him > up about. Beat him up?!! Okay, I don't know why this is confusing, since there's no reason for it to be confusion, but, if JohnSmith posts that Boy George is weird looking, if purple hair is weird looking, if dreads are weird looking, if an Albino is weird looking, there's a good chance I'm going to post as I have. And it has nothing to do with who I prefer or don't prefer!!! It has to do with us all being human beans. Now, if you continue to want to disagree with me, that's cool, but please disagree with what I'm actually saying & not something else - and leave 'poor Alan' out of it. I really doubt very seriously if he wants to be considered 'poor Alan'. If I were him, I wouldn't, at any rate. He made a statement. Some of us disagree with him. That doesn't make us meanies, nor does it make him a bad person. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "There are 10 of us, all of family Zathras. Each one named Zathras. Slight differences in how you pronounce Zathras ... Zathras ... Zathras. You are seeing now?" - Zathras 2 "There are 10 of you???" - Ivanova "Yes! Oh, well ... 9 now." - Zathras 2 Hehe got ya riled up... :-) Im just conversatin..lol..we can go back to b5 talk if ya want..<giggle> KROM > In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:22:57 -0600 in Msg.# > [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > statement. Some of us disagree with him. That doesn't make us meanies, nor > does it make him a bad person. In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 05:17:36 -0600 in Msg.# > Hehe got ya riled up... > :-) > > Im just conversatin..lol..we can go back to b5 talk if ya want..<giggle> No, krom, if you want to rile me up, ... well, actually, that would be pointless, huh? LOL The more some people get riled, the more I get calm. If I don't get calm, I put it all away until later, or simply move on, take a break, whatever. Remember this? <*> SignatureDonnaB 06-07-06 Diagnosis T2 HbA1c 8.1, D&E & Metformin 500mg Current ................... HbA1c 5.3 "Zathras does not want to die. But if it is the only way, then Zathras dies. It is life." - Zathras to Sinclair, B5, "Babylon Squared" Is that the man in the boat?..lol..i kid i kid..lol KROM "DonnaB shallotpeel" <shallotpeel@comcast.net> wrote> > Remember this? <*> I'm shocked! ;) > Is that the man in the boat?..lol..i kid i kid..lol > > KROM > > "DonnaB shallotpeel" <shallotpeel@comcast.net> wrote> >> Remember this? <*> > Beat him up?!! Okay, I don't know why this is confusing, since there's no > reason for it to be confusion, but, if JohnSmith posts that Boy George is > weird looking, if purple hair is weird looking, if dreads are weird looking, > if an Albino is weird looking, there's a good chance I'm going to post as I > have. And it has nothing to do with who I prefer or don't prefer!!! It has > to do with us all being human beans. But... if I were a human bean who *didn't* want to look different, I'd have not put in the dreads! It does make me unordinary. In the decade before the dreads, only once did a stranger comment on my hair. Now it happens about once or twice a month. I don't mean people insult me or anything. I mean people ask me how long I've had them or how did I put them in or how do I take care of them or if I've had problems becuse of them or just flatout compliment me or remark they'd like dreads but think their boss/parent/spouse would dislike them. I've noticed two disapproving looks in a year, most people who "notice" the dreads are interested or intrigued, and the rest ignore them entirely. The thing is... I wasn't trying to look ordinary when I put them in! And I'd guess the same applies to Boy George, as he wasn't *born* looking unusual but has done it on purpose as part of his whole thang. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ > The thing is... I wasn't trying to look ordinary when I put them in! And > I'd guess the same applies to Boy George, as he wasn't *born* looking > unusual but has done it on purpose as part of his whole thang. Actually, in all recent sighting, he's been extremely ordinary looking. For years now, so labeling him "weird" now is truly odd. Unless pudgy, t shirted and short haired is weird. Susan >> Beat him up?!! Okay, I don't know why this is confusing, since there's no >> reason for it to be confusion, but, if JohnSmith posts that Boy George is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >But... if I were a human bean who *didn't* want to look different, I'd >have not put in the dreads! if you were a human bean, nothing you could do would prevent you from looking different. >It does make me unordinary. to say the least. > In the decade before the dreads, only once >did a stranger comment on my hair. I think people were still trying to get beyond the human bean thing. > Now it happens about once or twice a >month. apparently the human bean issue lost it's novelty in time. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:59:12 -0500 in Msg.# <474ad133$0$27071$470ef3ce@news.pa.net>, Jackie Patti <jpatti@ccil.org> wrote: > But... if I were a human bean who *didn't* want to look different, I'd > have not put in the dreads! [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > And I'd guess the same applies to Boy George, as he wasn't *born* > looking unusual but has done it on purpose as part of his whole thang. Interested or intrigued is curious, ... or some other positive or neutral value, though. Weird looking is a negative one. And, yes, I had purple hair all summer. I'd always wanted to do it. I did. It was great fun. I will probably do it or some other non-natural color again at some point. People loved it. Little girls looked at it & you could just see them thinking, ... that they didn't know you could have hair that color. (First it was dark purple, then with sun & time it was either lavender or pink, which is a big fave color for little girls in the southern USA now.) Lots of interesting comments, even though, NO, I didn't do it for or against anyone else at all, I did it for me. And, I didn't do it to be different. Hell, I was born different. I've felt different all my life. It's not something I would seek out. And, I suspect it's not something that Boy George seeks out either. The people who obviously disapproved of it, including the rude ones, were all pinched mouthed and looked quite obviously unhappy. But, no, having purple hair this summer isn't why I feel so passionately about this. What Priscilla said sums things up rather nicely. People are people. I try not to judge them at all. If I must judge them, it will be on their actions toward others. But, basically, they are responsible for their own relationship to the universe. And, I spent half my life, at least, swallowing people's commentary about it being okay for people to be themselves as long as they keep it out of sight. I reached a point when I couldn't choke that down anymore. I don't plan on going back. Too unhealthy, hurts too bad. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "Zathras is oldest living caretaker of Great Machine. One hundred ten years old. Ha ha." - Zathras, B5 > Interested or intrigued is curious, ... or some other positive or neutral > value, though. Weird looking is a negative one. Ah, this is the source of our disagreement. I was vice-president of "The Wierd Club" (intentionally mispelled) in junior high school. To me, the word is equivalent to "unusual" and does not have a negative connotation necessarily, though it might in some circumstances. I thought Alan's original comment could be read either as negative, specifically wrt to androgynous folks or other gender-benders, or not. His explanations since have clarified for me that it was not meant with negative connotaitons, but meant as "unusual." > And, I didn't do it to be > different. Hell, I was born different. I've felt different all my life. It's > not something I would seek out. And, I suspect it's not something that Boy > George seeks out either. But you didn't do purple hair to fit in either, eh? I shall relay a story here. I am white, as is my daughter. When she was 4 years old, we moved to Pensacola for me to go to university. I was originally from the north and found myself very shocked by the blatant racism that existed there at the time. It was like some weird movie; I didn't know people were really like that. I felt... almost closeted about being a *liberal* let alone anything else. I worried my daughter might pick up some level of stupidity from the environment and decided to give her a long lecture one day. I began by asking her if it was better to be black or white, all ready with a lecture when she told me white was better. But she told me it was better to be black, and when I asked her why, she said because it was different, and differences were interesting as the world would be boring if we were all the same. I decided she didn't need my lecture as she was wiser at age 4 than most adults. This doesn't mean she doesn't *notice* differences or have opinions about them or have aesthetic preferences, though you'd be unable to classify them based on race or gender; she's dated people of many races and both genders. I really haven't seen Alan say anything that is necessarily indicative of being less wise on the topic than my daughter is. > But, no, having purple hair this summer isn't why I feel so passionately > about this. What Priscilla said sums things up rather nicely. People are > people. I try not to judge them at all. If I must judge them, it will be on > their actions toward others. But, basically, they are responsible for their > own relationship to the universe. I judge everyone, all the time. I may choose to use discretion about which judgements I share, but I have them. My most severe judgements of others are based on behaviour; I'm *exceedingly* judgmental about that. I don't even try not to have them. That they are people isn't relevant, really. What is relevant is I am a person and thus have opinions, thoughts, desires, likes and dislikes. I think okra is great but asparagus is gross. That's a judgement - and it says nothing whatsoever about the intrinsic value of either vegetable; it says something about me. > And, I spent half my life, at least, swallowing people's commentary about it > being okay for people to be themselves as long as they keep it out of sight. > I reached a point when I couldn't choke that down anymore. I don't plan on > going back. Too unhealthy, hurts too bad. I am giving Alan the benefit of the doubt on that comment, though I agree with you it can easily be perceived as hurtful. But I don't believe Alan intends to be hurtful to queers. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ >I really haven't seen Alan say anything that is necessarily indicative >of being less wise on the topic than my daughter is. Thanks - I've reached 4yo level(but a wise 4yo:-) Truly honoured. I hope I still measure up when she becomes a teen:-) Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts >> I really haven't seen Alan say anything that is necessarily indicative >> of being less wise on the topic than my daughter is. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Truly honoured. I hope I still measure up when she becomes a > teen:-) She is 24, so adolescent stupidity is in the past. ;) Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ >>> I really haven't seen Alan say anything that is necessarily indicative >>> of being less wise on the topic than my daughter is. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >She is 24, so adolescent stupidity is in the past. ;) Dang! So I can never catch up now. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts >>> I really haven't seen Alan say anything that is necessarily indicative >>> of being less wise on the topic than my daughter is. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >She is 24, so adolescent stupidity is in the past. ;) oy you are naive. ;) SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > I think okra is great but asparagus is gross. That's a judgement - and > it says nothing whatsoever about the intrinsic value of either > vegetable; it says something about me. I would call that a preference. A judgement would be that asparagus is bad or okra is the best there is. There is preference, assessment, and judgement. Each can assign value but each also has different connotations. Priscilla >> I think okra is great but asparagus is gross. That's a judgement - and >> it says nothing whatsoever about the intrinsic value of either [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > There is preference, assessment, and judgement. Each can assign value > but each also has different connotations. OK, but... people who like asparagus are weird. ;) Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ > >> I think okra is great but asparagus is gross. That's a judgement - and > >> it says nothing whatsoever about the intrinsic value of either [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > OK, but... people who like asparagus are weird. ;) LOL! As an asparagus lover I resent that! We're not weird... we're odd. Priscilla In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:26:27 -0500 in Msg.# <vze23t8n-C3B1C9.16262727112007@individual.net>, "Priscilla H. Ballou" <vze23t8n@verizon.net> wrote: > > > There is preference, assessment, and judgement. Each can assign value > > > but each also has different connotations. Ooh, that is such a nice line. May I add you to my quotes file? > > OK, but... people who like asparagus are weird. ;) > > LOL! As an asparagus lover I resent that! We're not weird... we're odd. I love both okra & asparagus. Does that make me bi-vegetable? SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "A cynic is not merely one who reads bitter lessons from the past; he is one who is prematurely disappointed in the future." - Sydney J. Harris > In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:26:27 -0500 in Msg.# > <vze23t8n-C3B1C9.16262727112007@individual.net>, "Priscilla H. Ballou" [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ooh, that is such a nice line. May I add you to my quotes file? Why certainly! > > > OK, but... people who like asparagus are weird. ;) > > > > LOL! As an asparagus lover I resent that! We're not weird... we're odd. > > I love both okra & asparagus. Does that make me bi-vegetable? I'd be delighted to welcome you to the world of bi! ;-) Priscilla, who prefers her okra deep fried and her asparagus thick >> In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:26:27 -0500 in Msg.# >> <vze23t8n-C3B1C9.16262727112007@individual.net>, "Priscilla H. Ballou" [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Priscilla, who prefers her okra deep fried and her asparagus thick I don't think I've ever seen okra for sale here in the Great White North. I suppose it doesn't travel well, or maybe it just wouldn't sell here. I have seen jicama, but at the specialty greengrocer, not in the store where I work. California strawberries (Dole) are currently 4.99 a pound. Yikes! Vicki >>> In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:26:27 -0500 in Msg.# >>> <vze23t8n-C3B1C9.16262727112007@individual.net>, "Priscilla H. Ballou" [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >Vicki Okra does well in my garden. I we olant it early it comes up and suls. Then when o hot days comes it takes off and is very productive. The Gulf Coast turns the heat on in lote May. Most of our garden has peaked then. but my blackberriess come in. DAm diabetes lintmy nrtake. Maybe some on can post on the value of ths produce. > Okra does well in my garden. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Maybe some on can post on the value of > ths produce. I'm not sure if I'm commenting properly as there were a few too many typos for me to parse. I'm in central PA and okra is available here, not all the time, and not at all stores. I can often find it frozen when I can't find it fresh. One of my local groceries has a *huge* produce department and it's usually available there. Okra is not traditional here, it's more of a southern vegetable. However, it grows just fine in the north; it's just habit that we don't grow it much up here. It's traditionally served either battered and deep-fried or in gumbo, which is a type of stew. My favorite way is just to slice the pods up and fry them in a bit of butter, which takes about 5 minutes. Depending on how it's cooked, it can be sort of slimy. People who object to it are often objecting to the slime. It doesn't *have* to be slimy though, depends how you fix it. I can't describe the flavor; to me, it doesn't taste like anything else. It sort of fits in the same place in my diet as artichokes, it's a veggie I tend to eat plain with some butter, rather than use in recipes. A half pound of okra fried in a tablespoon of butter has 16g total carb (about half of which is fiber), 5g protein and 170 calories (most of which are from the butter). I have no problem whatsoever eating a half pound of the stuff at a sitting, it is quite yummy. Okra has significant amounts of vitamins A, C, K and folate. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ >> Okra does well in my garden. >It's traditionally served either battered and deep-fried or in gumbo, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >object to it are often objecting to the slime. It doesn't *have* to be >slimy though, depends how you fix it. Slimy is definitely not a quality I welcome on my plate. Hmmm... unless it's mushrooms... but anyway, how do I cook it to eliminate slime? Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 100ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25 >> Depending on how it's cooked, it can be sort of slimy. People who >> object to it are often objecting to the slime. It doesn't *have* to be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > unless it's mushrooms... but anyway, how do I cook it to eliminate > slime? Not making gumbo is a start, as the slime is sort of part of the thickening in gumbo. But in that case, it's considered a plus rather than a negative. I think the reason it's so often cornmeal battered and deep-fried is that "covers" the sliminess. With okra, you don't have to dip it in milk or egg, it's damp enough to just dip in the breading and fry. I imagine that would work with some of the low-carb flour replacements also. If I were going to try that, I'd probably bread it in flaxmeal. Fresh pods, especially baby ones, are much less slimy. Slime seems to have to do with older pods to some degree. Really old, large okra pods can have slime with almost a snot-like consistency, which is what many object to. I don't find chopping up fresh pods and frying them in butter is slimy. The frozen stuff sometimes is and sometimes isn't, I guess it depends on how young and fresh it was when they froze it. If I had a large batch that was particularly slimy and didn't want to make gumbo, I'd probably stew it in tomatoes, which would get rid of the objectional consistency. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:51:18 +0000 in Msg.# <8voqk39173don4t68dmltespciosirn8e9@4ax.com>, Nicky <ukc802466929@btconnect.com> wrote: > Slimy is definitely not a quality I welcome on my plate. Hmmm... > unless it's mushrooms... but anyway, how do I cook it to eliminate > slime? Pick it as soon as it can be & cook it immediately. If it's tender you can even steam it & not have the slime factor. It's also not slimy in gumbo, or lightly battered & fried. Also not in succotash. When most people have had it & it's been slimy, it's because it wasn't tender and/or because it was over-cooked aka water, saucepan, heat, okra & seasoning, cook too long. <G> Oh, you want to clean it, tenderly but well, to avoid the slime, too. It kind of has peach fuzz on it. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "We will all be better citizens when voting records of our congressmen are followed as carefully as scores of pro-football games." - Lou Erickson, "Atlanta Journal" >I don't think I've ever seen okra for sale here in the Great White >North. I suppose it doesn't travel well, or maybe it just wouldn't sell [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Vicki it travels quite well, both canned and fresh. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . On 11/28/07 9:37 AM, in article eq9rk392d7t7omt6jgqm0lcbtmabfbj89c@4ax.com, >> I don't think I've ever seen okra for sale here in the Great White >> North. I suppose it doesn't travel well, or maybe it just wouldn't sell [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > it travels quite well, both canned and fresh. You have no trouble getting it here in Vancouver. You won't get fresh ones in a supermarket, only canned ones, but most of the independent grocers have the fresh ones. Especially the ethnic markets. SignatureMartha Irwin T2 Canada 1500mg. Metformin, 4mg. Avandia In alt.support.diabetes on Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:16:29 GMT in Msg.# > You have no trouble getting it here in Vancouver. You won't get fresh ones > in a supermarket, only canned ones, but most of the independent grocers have > the fresh ones. Especially the ethnic markets. Oh, I love it! Okra is an ethnic food! LOL SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "Understanding is a three edged sword, your side, their side, and the truth." - John Sheridan, Babylon 5 > Oh, I love it! Okra is an ethnic food! LOL I thought she was a talk show host? Susan >In alt.support.diabetes on Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:16:29 GMT in Msg.# > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Oh, I love it! Okra is an ethnic food! LOL redneck is an ethnic group? SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > On 11/28/07 9:37 AM, in article eq9rk392d7t7omt6jgqm0lcbtmabfbj89c@4ax.com, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > in a supermarket, only canned ones, but most of the independent grocers have > the fresh ones. Especially the ethnic markets. Heh heh, you know, canned never entered my mind. Canned okra sounds more gross than canned asparagus by a long shot... I'll take a look in the canned veggie aisle. I don't think I'll be buying any if I see it. What else is there to do with canned okra other than dumping it into a gumbo? Vicki > >> In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:26:27 -0500 in Msg.# > >> <vze23t8n-C3B1C9.16262727112007@individual.net>, "Priscilla H. Ballou" [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > California strawberries (Dole) are currently 4.99 a pound. Yikes! I live in Massachusetts, and I think I may have had it in Indian (or at least South Asian) restaurants. Priscilla >>> OK, but... people who like asparagus are weird. ;) >> LOL! As an asparagus lover I resent that! We're not weird... we're odd. > > I love both okra & asparagus. Does that make me bi-vegetable? It makes you suspect for "cheating" on okra. ;) Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:27:19 -0500 in Msg.# <474c99c4$0$27023$470ef3ce@news.pa.net>, Jackie Patti <jpatti@ccil.org> wrote: > >>> OK, but... people who like asparagus are weird. ;) > >> LOL! As an asparagus lover I resent that! We're not weird... we're odd. > > > > I love both okra & asparagus. Does that make me bi-vegetable? > > It makes you suspect for "cheating" on okra. ;) LOL, oh, yeah, bi-veggie, non-exclusive, ... this could get to be a good personal ad. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "A liking for truth at any cost is a passion that spares nothing & that nothing resists. It's a vice, at times a comfort, or a selfishness." - Albert Camus > In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:26:27 -0500 in Msg.# > <vze23t8n-C3B1C9.16262727112007@individual.net>, "Priscilla H. Ballou" [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I love both okra & asparagus. Does that make me bi-vegetable? Eeeeeew! What kind of sicko are you? I'll bet you mash your potatoes too! *Prefers to eat celery and peppers* "DonnaB shallotpeel" <shallotpeel@comcast.net> a écrit ... >> > > There is preference, assessment, and judgement. Each can assign >> > > value [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I love both okra & asparagus. Does that make me bi-vegetable? I suppose so, unless you gro-vegetable ... ;)) >> >> I think okra is great but asparagus is gross. That's a judgement - and >> >> it says nothing whatsoever about the intrinsic value of either [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Priscilla On a more serious note, I also detested asparagus before Quentin alerted me to it's benefits. However, my experience of asparagus was in my childhood as horrible mushy green stuff that came out of a can. I had learnt from past experience of Quentin's nutrition advice that it was worth-while trying anything he recommended. It took a while to overcome past aversions, but I did. Originally, my motto of choice was "everything in moderation"; slowly it is starting to become "you never know what you can learn to like until you accept that your life may depend on it". I had never eated fresh, crisp asparagus. Or cooked asparagus properly prepared and presented. Nor had I experienced the delights of spargelsuppe. Jackie, which form of asparagus did you find gross? All of those, some of those, or is your experience also only of the canned variety? Incidentally, I've yet to taste okra. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:38:23 +1100 in Msg.# <d43pk350kjfs8sn48cq5plo44i06gl8bmp@4ax.com>, Alan S <loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote: > Incidentally, I've yet to taste okra. Wwhaa-at?!! How long did you say you were on the coast?!! Never had any okra? My goodness, someone did not do their Southern hospitality duty! SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "A happy childhood is the worst possible preparation for life." - Kinky Friedman, probably in the novel ARMADILLOS & OLD LACE > Jackie, which form of asparagus did you find gross? All of > those, some of those, or is your experience also only of the > canned variety? I found the canned stuff gross as a child. But I tried them again as an adult. A friend had both asparagus and brussel sprouts in her garden and it turned out I don't like the fresh ones either. I grew beets one year as Steve said he liked them. I tried a bunch of different recipes. Turned out, I don't like them even fresh... and neither did he! I agree with retrying things every so often. For me, tastes change and there's a lot of foods I feel differently about now than I did as a child. But asparagus isn't one of the tastes that changed - I don't like them. Neither do I like brussel sprouts, beets, liver or lobster. > Incidentally, I've yet to taste okra. It's *way* better than asparagus. ;) I just remembered that once I belonged to a BBS which had a forum in which folks passionately flamed pro and anti okra arguments. It was a joke, not a serious disagreement, but boy did we go at it! I am amused that I chose okra as an example here as if my own unconscious mind is mocking me. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ Jackie Patti wrote in message <474c97bb$0$27023$470ef3ce@news.pa.net>... >I grew beets one year as Steve said he liked them. I tried a bunch of >different recipes. Turned out, I don't like them even fresh... and >neither did he! Arrrgh, I've never met a beet I liked. :-) Cheri > Arrrgh, I've never met a beet I liked. :-) I love beets, both raw and cooked. In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 04:31:07 GMT in Msg.# <fa63j.16361$Mg1.1942@trndny03>, "Julie Bove" <juliebove@verizon.net> wrote: > > Arrrgh, I've never met a beet I liked. :-) > > I love beets, both raw and cooked. I love beets, raw, cooked & pickled. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders & convert them to Christianity." - Ann Coulter 2004 > On a more serious note, I also detested asparagus before > Quentin alerted me to it's benefits. However, my experience > of asparagus was in my childhood as horrible mushy green > stuff that came out of a can. That's the only kind I'd ever had too. > I had learnt from past experience of Quentin's nutrition > advice that it was worth-while trying anything he [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > asparagus properly prepared and presented. Nor had I > experienced the delights of spargelsuppe. Well, I tried it both raw and cooked fresh and it still gags me either way. It's just as bad as cooked broccoli if not worse. At least with the broccoli, I can manage to eat it raw. With the broccoli it's a taste and odor thing. With the asparagus it's a taste, texture and odor thing. > Jackie, which form of asparagus did you find gross? All of > those, some of those, or is your experience also only of the > canned variety? > > Incidentally, I've yet to taste okra. I've had little bits of okra in a "gumbo" soup from Campbell's. I neither liked it nor disliked it. It was just sort of there. Although I've seen okra in the stores here, my mom has warned me not to buy it because she says it's no good unless it's really fresh and you can't get it fresh here. I had fried oakra in memphis tennessee..was delicious! I hate aspergras as im one of the few who can smell it in my pee..lol..only one in ten can or ssomthing like that. KROM >>> >> I think okra is great but asparagus is gross. That's a judgement - >>> >> and [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com > Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts > I had fried oakra in memphis tennessee..was delicious! > > I hate aspergras as im one of the few who can smell it in my > pee..lol..only one in ten can or ssomthing like that. [ . . . ] It smells, whether you can smell it or not! ;-D SignatureNick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families! I've known US vets who served as far back as the Spanish American War. They are all my heroes! Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~ >> I had fried oakra in memphis tennessee..was delicious! >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >It smells, whether you can smell it or not! ;-D do trees falling when no one is around to hear them actually make a noise? SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . : I had fried oakra in memphis tennessee..was delicious! : I hate aspergras as im one of the few who can smell it in my pee..lol..only : one in ten can or ssomthing like that. : KROM Manyy can smell it in their pee, but so what? It is just something that happens. Wendy >OK, but... people who like asparagus are weird. ;) so now you are calling me weird. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . Màck©® wrote in message ... >>OK, but... people who like asparagus are weird. ;) > >so now you are calling me weird. Wierd? No, "wierdo" suits better. ;-) Cheri >Màck©® wrote in message ... >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Cheri True. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >>> I think okra is great but asparagus is gross. That's a judgement - and >>> it says nothing whatsoever about the intrinsic value of either [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > OK, but... people who like asparagus are weird. ;) I don't like asparagus in any way, shape or form. Haven't had any okra in years but as a child, I loved deep fried okra. > I don't like asparagus in any way, shape or form. Haven't had any okra in > years but as a child, I loved deep fried okra. I loved it like that too, with a corn meal batter. I just fry it plain in butter now though. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ > And, I suspect it's not something that Boy >George seeks out either. in goy George's case, I disagree with the above. It's all part of the stage persona. >The people who obviously disapproved of it, including the rude ones, were >all pinched mouthed and looked quite obviously unhappy. hair color is pretty mild, but I see people who color their hair, partially or completely in bright colors such as purple, pink, blue, red etc....I can't help but think why would they change it when their natural appearance is far more beautiful. >But, no, having purple hair this summer isn't why I feel so passionately >about this. What Priscilla said sums things up rather nicely. People are [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I reached a point when I couldn't choke that down anymore. I don't plan on >going back. Too unhealthy, hurts too bad. I don't think anyone going there. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > Not messed up..interesting..i may find a goth girl stunning and > beautiful..some might think she hideous...doesnt matter..again as long as [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > proefernces etc and he said it wasnt so the rest is not somthing to beat him > up about. Finding someone attractive or not is completely different thing from labeling someone weird for their gender presentation. Susan >Finding someone attractive or not is completely different thing from >labeling someone weird for their gender presentation. > >Susan Actually, I labelled him weird for the total combination. Is androgynous a gender? :-) Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. >>Finding someone attractive or not is completely different thing from >>labeling someone weird for their gender presentation. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Actually, I labelled him weird for the total combination. Is > androgynous a gender? :-) Alan, I know you think this is a non issue, but labeling folks weird for gender presentation has led to a lot of serious and even deadly consequences here, not unlike the hate that has befallen other groups labled as "other." Boy George is not confused about his gender, it's clear he knows he's a boy. He's also an artist and has, at times in the past, chosen to use his body as his palette. To you that makes him weird; to me it makes him creative and uninhibited. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > body as his palette. To you that makes him weird; to me it makes him > creative and uninhibited. Michael Jackson used his body as a palette too, he is weird. >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Michael Jackson used his body as a palette too, he is weird. Michael had a lot of plastic surgery. I think that's a little different than using makeup or even getting a tattoo to express ones self. Ahh see ..so YOU set the rules? If one has surgery its ok to clal them wierd but if they use makeup and tattoos they arent? See what a slippery slope that is? Sombody could be as outraged at you as you are at alan because they find sugery simply a tool to get thier personal expressions out... KROM >> Michael Jackson used his body as a palette too, he is weird. > > Michael had a lot of plastic surgery. I think that's a little different > than using makeup or even getting a tattoo to express ones self. > Ahh see ..so YOU set the rules? > If one has surgery its ok to clal them wierd but if they use makeup and > tattoos they arent? > See what a slippery slope that is? > Sombody could be as outraged at you as you are at alan because they find > sugery simply a tool to get thier personal expressions out... There's nothing wrong with surgery. But when one keeps having it over and over to the point where one's nose collapses, I think that's a problem. And I don't think I'm alone in that thinking. Hey that cat woman who goes on talk shows for having a zillion sugeries is a person too! I think... Shes wierd! ;-) KROM >> Ahh see ..so YOU set the rules? >> If one has surgery its ok to clal them wierd but if they use makeup and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > over to the point where one's nose collapses, I think that's a problem. > And I don't think I'm alone in that thinking. >>> x-no-archive: yes >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Michael had a lot of plastic surgery. I think that's a little different >than using makeup or even getting a tattoo to express ones self. he should have consulted Cher on that one then as she already made the same mistakes and figured out how to correct them. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >>>> x-no-archive: yes >>>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > he should have consulted Cher on that one then as she already made the > same mistakes and figured out how to correct them. True. >>Finding someone attractive or not is completely different thing from >>labeling someone weird for their gender presentation. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Actually, I labelled him weird for the total combination. Is > androgynous a gender? :-) It is a lack of gender. >>>Finding someone attractive or not is completely different thing from >>>labeling someone weird for their gender presentation. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >It is a lack of gender. But there wasn't a lack of smiley... I did know what the word meant. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts >Actually, I labelled him weird for the total combination. Is >androgynous a gender? :-) > >Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. yes, actually. but in goy George's case it's all for the stage. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:47:25 +1100 in Msg.# <3hjlk3pqbtb3fhpnlk60q0nhai2jv1agp8@4ax.com>, Alan S <loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote: > >Finding someone attractive or not is completely different thing from > >labeling someone weird for their gender presentation. Thank you! > Actually, I labelled him weird for the total combination. Is > androgynous a gender? :-) I believe that androgyny is a gender identity issue, yes. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "Zathras is used to being beast of burden to other people's needs. Very sad life. Probably have very sad death, but at least there is symmetry." - Zathras, B5 > In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:47:25 +1100 in Msg.# > <3hjlk3pqbtb3fhpnlk60q0nhai2jv1agp8@4ax.com>, Alan S [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I believe that androgyny is a gender identity issue, yes. There was a guy in MHD with Kleinfelter's Syndrome - he was androgynous, extra x chromosome. So not an "issue" always but a fact. My point is it is a look not necessarily a lifestyle issue so finding it wierd is the same as finding the thug looks with gold teeth wierd or finding a wifebeater t-shirt and cut offs wierd or the lizard man who filed his teeth and tattoed scales over his entire body and had his tongue surgically split. I think most are upset because they think it was somehow lifestyle bashing and wanted to be "sensitive" to it. Since alan said it was not a issue with his lifestyle but simply his look and drug abuse i see zero reason to be mad about it. KROM "Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote > > Finding someone attractive or not is completely different thing from > labeling someone weird for their gender presentation. > > Susan > My point is it is a look not necessarily a lifestyle issue so finding it > wierd is the same as finding the thug looks with gold teeth wierd or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Since alan said it was not a issue with his lifestyle but simply his look > and drug abuse i see zero reason to be mad about it. Man, I'm gone for a day or two and things go to hell...lol I read all the posts in this thread, and have a few items to contribute. My own two cents, so take it as you will. First, we ALL judge to a certain extent or another. In some instances, this is NOT a bad thing. Would judging a pedophile to be a sick evil individual worthy of nothing short of death be wrong? Judging murderers or rapists? Hitler or Stalin? Racists? The extent we judge is based on but not limited to, and in no certain order, environment, upbringing, our own personal moral code. What we should strive for IMHO, is to judge those things not considered wrong by society as a whole, as fairly as possible. I was raised, and my own moral code tells me, not to judge people based on race, appearances, religious preference, or sexual orientation. I go by the "Whatever floats yer boat" principle. In other words, whatever gets you through the day. People are people, and I do my utmost to get along with everyone, unless they prove themselves unworthy. One of my dearest friends in the world is gay as the day is long, but he gave me the best and most cherished compliments I have ever gotten. He said the reason people are drawn to me, is that I treat everyone as if they were special. That I don't judge anyone based on the above criteria. I am a prime example of the saying, "Don't judge a book by it's cover". All my family is from West Virginia. And when I don't shave for a while, wear my NASCAR ball cap, sleeveless shirt, jeans, and sh.t-kicker boots, I appear to be the epitome of he archetypical redneck hillbilly. But with an IQ of 161, a Master's in Comp Sci, a Bachelor's in Pysch, and mediate and practice Tai Chi, THAT stereotype gets shot to pieces. I have 7 tattoos. Did I get them to be a rebellious or ant-social? I got them because they represent times of profound change in my life, a test of my endurance, and as a way to express some of my beliefs. Heavy metal is my favorite genre of music. Does that make me a blood drinking anti-social Satanist. No, I like all genres, with classical and old Motown right behind metal. I am a trained musician and singer. Those fans of Star Trek are familiar with the term IDIC. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. We just need to rejoice in each other's differences. SignatureT2 - DX Oct. '96 - Lantus, oral meds, and diet Remember...the only stupid question is the one you DIDN'T ask. You know what to do with the addy, to reply by email krom wrote in message ... >Bottom line is dont hog pile on poor alan cause he finds a certain >entertainer un-appealing..i bet i can find a entertainer you dont like [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >KROM Yes, but there were just opinions on his opinions. Absolutely nobody beat Alan up and there were no nasty posts to Alan or anything...certainly not my definition of a hog pile, whatever that is. :-) Cheri >krom wrote in message ... > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Cheri But, but..., forget it (hobbling off into distance nurse wounds) sniff, Alan Alan S wrote in message <0egmk3di5u67632oj4uu3c2h4fcgn7blo3@4ax.com>... >>Yes, but there were just opinions on his opinions. Absolutely nobody >>beat Alan up and there were no nasty posts to Alan or [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >sniff, Alan LOL, but what's a hog pile, and who the Hell is baby Grace? Is she related to Boy George? :-) Cheri > Alan S wrote in message > <0egmk3di5u67632oj4uu3c2h4fcgn7blo3@4ax.com>... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > LOL, but what's a hog pile, and who the Hell is baby Grace? Is she > related to Boy George? :-) She might be a distant cousin. >Alan S wrote in message ><0egmk3di5u67632oj4uu3c2h4fcgn7blo3@4ax.com>... [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >LOL, but what's a hog pile, and who the Hell is baby Grace? http://news.google.com/news?q=baby+grace&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&um=1&ie=U TF-8&sa=X&oi=news_result&resnum=1&ct=title Is she >related to Boy George? :-) >Cheri something like a dog pile? everyone piles on? SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >In alt.support.diabetes on Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:53:28 -0600 in Msg.# > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >everyone we weren't attracted to was 'weird', it would make the world a >pretty messed up place. finding someone weird does not make the world a pretty messed place, even though the world is a pretty messed up place. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >>> x-no-archive: yes >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I may be on the wrong track here but I read Alan's comment as finding Boy > George's use of make up, eyebrow plucking etc as looking weird. He apparently has not been to Seattle or San Francisco, or Provincetown... >>>> x-no-archive: yes >>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >He apparently has not been to Seattle or San Francisco, or Provincetown... Well, actually, San Francisco was interesting, both times. So was New Orleans. But London's Gay Pride parade was more picturesque and Sydney's Mardi Gras probably puts them all in the shade. Why do you think I mean nasty when I mean weird? Does the word have a different meaning on the other side of the Pacific? I don't mean in the supernatural sense but this one: "Weird: Of a strikingly odd or unusual character; strange." Now, is anyone who has jerked their knees on this thread of the opinion that Boy George is not of a strikingly odd or unusual character or strange? Or, to reverse that, is anyone of the opinion that Boy George is an unremarkable character and totally normal? If you said that to him I think he would be offended, myself. I wasn't being nasty when I said he was weird, just descriptive. When I said he was a waste of space, that's when I was being nasty:-) Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts >>>>> x-no-archive: yes >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > descriptive. When I said he was a waste of space, that's > when I was being nasty:-) Well, it certainly isn't nice to say that someone is weird. I don't think he's weird at all. >> I wasn't being nasty when I said he was weird, just >> descriptive. When I said he was a waste of space, that's >> when I was being nasty:-) > >Well, it certainly isn't nice to say that someone is weird. I don't think >he's weird at all. So in that case he is quite normal. Ordinary. If you ever meet the guy, if you really want to upset him, see how he reacts if you tell him he's ordinary. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts >>> I wasn't being nasty when I said he was weird, just >>> descriptive. When I said he was a waste of space, that's [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> > So in that case he is quite normal. Ordinary. To say that someone is ordinary is not nice either. > If you ever meet the guy, if you really want to upset him, > see how he reacts if you tell him he's ordinary. Why would I do that? Why would I even comment? That would be rude! > So in that case he is quite normal. Ordinary. Perhaps. I don't know him well enough to say, and neither do you. > If you ever meet the guy, if you really want to upset him, > see how he reacts if you tell him he's ordinary. Alan, different is not weird, weird is an unkind judgment. Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Susan That's the problem I was trying to explain, apparently badly, to Donna. You read the word differently to the way I write it. In other words, it means different things to the two of us. Weird is not an unkind judgement in my use of it. It is purely a description, in my view accurate, in your view not. Check your dictionary definition. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts > Weird is not an unkind judgement in my use of it. It is > purely a description, in my view accurate, in your view not. > Check your dictionary definition. Alan, it isn't a simple description, it's a judgement. Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Susan just as you have judged Alan on this issue. no human being is capable of not making a judgment. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > just as you have judged Alan on this issue. > > no human being is capable of not making a judgment. I have not judged Alan, if you comprehend the thread. I've commented on the connotations and impact of his statement, and explained why it matters to me. It's called conversation. There's a difference between exercising good judgment and judgmentalism. One is a skill, the other a trait or habit. Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Susan in human beings, I am unsure of how it works in human beans, if the first is being practiced the second still exists in the same person. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:58:30 -0500 in Msg.# <j9gmk3hq3056om86fjmrjqp6verbmv8eal@4ax.com>, Màck©® <IAM@OneWithTheGoddess.org> wrote: > just as you have judged Alan on this issue. If I state my opinion & agree to disagree with him, which I have, then, I disagree that I am judging him. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "Zathras warn Zathras, but Zathras never listen to Zathras." - Zathras 2, B5 >In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:58:30 -0500 in Msg.# ><j9gmk3hq3056om86fjmrjqp6verbmv8eal@4ax.com>, Màck©® [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >If I state my opinion & agree to disagree with him, which I have, then, I >disagree that I am judging him. how much have you actually "read into" his comments in this thread? SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 03:54:29 -0500 in Msg.# <0pmnk3te609u3vmggtlrq6fnhnir1r2tlv@4ax.com>, Màck©® <IAM@OneWithTheGoddess.org> wrote: > >In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:58:30 -0500 in Msg.# > ><j9gmk3hq3056om86fjmrjqp6verbmv8eal@4ax.com>, Màck©® [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > how much have you actually "read into" his comments in this thread? Mack, I have attempted to make it clear what was being said & what was not being said. I don't think that I am reading into his comments or reading back into the text. I don't think it is a question of not understanding one another. I think we simply disagree. Apparently he does not share my summary of our positions. That, too, is okay with me, as it is also a part of civilized discourse. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "The Religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It will transcend a personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and spiritual, it will based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that can cope with modern scientific needs, it is Buddhism." - ALBERT EINSTEIN, Ideas and Opinions >>x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > purely a description, in my view accurate, in your view not. > Check your dictionary definition. ctionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This weird /w??rd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[weerd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation adjective, -er, -est, noun -adjective 1. involving or suggesting the supernatural; unearthly or uncanny: a weird sound; weird lights. 2. fantastic; bizarre: a weird getup. 3. Archaic. concerned with or controlling fate or destiny. -noun Chiefly Scot. 4. fate; destiny. 5. fate (def. 6). Sounds unkind to me. And I certainly wouldn't like it if someone labeled me as weird. >>>x-no-archive: yes >>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >Sounds unkind to me. And I certainly wouldn't like it if someone labeled me >as weird. No, I disagree; I think Boy George has deliberately chosen "fantastic; bizarre" as a promotion gimmic. Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 100ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25 > No, I disagree; I think Boy George has deliberately chosen "fantastic; > bizarre" as a promotion gimmic. Lots of black folks in the U.S. use the N word, but I would NEVER, nor do I suffer it in silence in my presence. Self deprecation or self labeling is very different than judgment by others. Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Self deprecation or self labeling is very different than judgment by others. This might be a culture thing - weird is not generally a problem over here... Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 100ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25 >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Susan I wasn't judgemental - but that was and extends the discussion to a new level. I'll invoke Godwin's law in advance now, before we move to the next level. Outa this thread, Alan, T2, Australia. > I wasn't judgemental - but that was and extends the > discussion to a new level. > > I'll invoke Godwin's law in advance now, before we move to > the next level. Alan, I don't think there's any risk of escalation here, and this has not been at all a hot thread, just a discussion. I agree it's been DONE. Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Susan So what would you have done if you had seen a black man, mid 20s, sitting in a crowded public place with a 3 year old sitting his lap, calling the child a punk while getting the child to respond and call him a nigga? I told the guy he should shut up, not use that language in public and to learn to respect himself so he could teach the child to respect himself. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > So what would you have done if you had seen a black man, mid 20s, > sitting in a crowded public place with a 3 year old sitting his lap, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to learn to respect himself so he could teach the child to respect > himself. I'd not have intervened in that case as you describe it. There are LOTS of things I see parents of all kinds do with and to their kids that I hate and disapprove of. That's life. Unless they're beating or verbally abusing with anger, I don't comment. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > kids that I hate and disapprove of. That's life. Unless they're beating > or verbally abusing with anger, I don't comment. I too try not to comment on what I see other people do. I remember Angela getting very upset when a man yelled at me in a restaurant. It was a cold day. We'd brought our coats, but decided to leave them in the van, rather than try to find a place to put them at the counter were we were going to sit. I had parked right by the front door so it wasn't like we had to walk a long ways out in the cold. Still, the man yelled at me for not putting a coat on the child. She couldn't understand why he chose to comment on it like that and said it was none of his business. I agreed. >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >coat on the child. She couldn't understand why he chose to comment on it >like that and said it was none of his business. I agreed. imagine a set of scales. the coat issue________^______teaching a child to disrespect himself SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >There are LOTS of things I see parents of all kinds do with and to their >kids that I hate and disapprove of. That's life. Unless they're >beating or verbally abusing with anger, I don't comment. > >Susan I'd settle for seeing them correct the "little darlings" at times, to just say stop it, and mean it. :-) Cheri I am a black man and i DO judge black people who use the N word as morons and those who would dress in gang fashions and call it a "part of our culture" as stupid as well. And when i see a guy with gold teeth and pants around his lower buttcheek and winter hiking boots in the summer.. i say that person looks wierd. KROM > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Susan >I am a black man and i DO judge black people who use the N word as morons >and those who would dress in gang fashions and call it a "part of our [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >KROM Thanks mate. I'd love to meet you some day. I've forgotten, where are you? Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts I live in the now frozen state of minnesota..we had managed to sorta avoid winter thanks to global warming..till now..sigh.. 8 degrees out..bleh..and snow is on its way. time to get the gloves and scarves and shovels ready. KROM >>I am a black man and i DO judge black people who use the N word as morons >>and those who would dress in gang fashions and call it a "part of our [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com > Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts Was "ADA To Change Thinking On Low Carb Diets?" I thought this thread strayed long ago, but I decided to make this threadlet OT >I live in the now frozen state of minnesota..we had managed to sorta avoid >winter thanks to global warming..till now..sigh.. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >KROM I'm afraid we may never meet, but life is strange. I had a cyber-friend from Minnesota. Which day was summer this year? :-) I'll digress to a little story. When I planned my first trip 'round the world in 2002, which I took in 2003, I did a lot of pre-planning. Among other things I joined the AARP (American Association of Retired People), to get senior's discounts in the USA while I drove there. They have a travel forum. While I was asking questions about California and the deep South, I noticed someone asking questions about Eastern Australia. It was a bit like the newsgroup here, but of course, more civilised:-) So, I offered some answers and we started a cyber-relationship. Eventually it transpired that she lived in Minnesota (somewhere near St Paul IIRC) and that she was visiting somewhere near me. We didn't realise how near until I realised she was staying in a Timeshare only ten minutes drive from me. To cut a long story short, we hosted her when she came out, showed her all the sights, arranged for her to judge a local dog show (a passion of hers), wandered off to Nimbin with her (Nimbin is a weird place, and I use the term advisedly, even she agreed:-) and sent her off to stay at my sister's place in Grafton for a night, and so on. I'm not a believer in deities; but I do believe that what goes around comes around. We enjoyed showing off our area and never expected anything. In conversations we discovered that Nevil Shute was an author we both liked and she discovered my belief that Penfolds Bin 707 is one of the top ten wines this country produces. Probably top 5. Anyway, we said goodbye and she invited me to drop in, but we both knew that Minnesota was a long way off my itinerary. So I haven't seen her since. A couple of months later it was Christmas. I got a parcel in the mail. A Nevil Shute First Edition. Then I got a phone call from a wine merchant to come to pick up a parcel. It was a '92 Bin 707 (look it up, way beyond my budget). Of course, I rang her to thank her, but that wasn't the end of it. My son had met a new lady. Normally, a bottle like that would be stored in a cellar for years, a collectors item. But I liked this new lady and her effect on my son and decided we'd invite them both to a restaurant to celebrate, and opened the bottle after dinner. It was superb. That couple are now the parents of my grandchild. I thought that bottle was one of the best presents I could have had. But I was wrong of course. What it led to was. What goes around comes around. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts Hopefully this will go through i overtalked my limit in the ada thread and my newsgroup has put me in time out..lol.. Someday ya might come to the mall of america or something and we can eat at famous dave's bar-bque resteraunt. :-) KROM > Was "ADA To Change Thinking On Low Carb Diets?" > [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com > Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts "krom" <thekromremoveremove@hotmail.com> a écrit ... >I live in the now frozen state of minnesota..we had managed to sorta avoid >winter thanks to global warming..till now..sigh.. Ahaaaaaaaaa ! > 8 degrees out..bleh..and snow is on its way. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> Thanks mate. I'd love to meet you some day. I've forgotten, >> where are you? LOl..dangit now yer stalk me and try to make a suit of my skin... I hate when that happens! KROM > "krom" <thekromremoveremove@hotmail.com> a écrit ... >>I live in the now frozen state of minnesota..we had managed to sorta avoid >>winter thanks to global warming..till now..sigh.. > > Ahaaaaaaaaa ! >>>>x-no-archive: yes >>>> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >D&E, 100ug thyroxine >Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25 and the winner is.... Nicky by a mile.... SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:45:39 -0500 in Msg.# > Alan, different is not weird, weird is an unkind judgment. Again, thank you! Why did it take me so many freaking lines?!!! LOL SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel "Zathras trained in crisis management!" - Zathras, B5 > In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:45:39 -0500 in Msg.# > >> Alan, different is not weird, weird is an unkind judgment. > > Again, thank you! Why did it take me so many freaking lines?!!! LOL But there is nothing in any dictionary that shows it is a judgmental word. In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:50:29 +1100 in Msg.# <13kmmu350qh3g1e@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote: > > In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:45:39 -0500 in Msg.# > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > But there is nothing in any dictionary that shows it is a judgmental word. Dictionary -> denotation; Usage -> connotation. In what universe is 'weird looking' not a negative? <G> And, I mean that quite seriously. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "When I see an exceedingly solemn man, I know he is an exceedingly stupid man. No man of any humor ever founded a religion - never. Humor sees both sides. While reason is the holy light, humor carries the lantern & the man with a keen sense of humor is preserved from the solemn stupidities of superstition." - Robert Green Ingersoll >In what universe is 'weird looking' not a negative? South of the Equator, West of the dateline, everywhere. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts "Alan S" <loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> a écrit ... >>In what universe is 'weird looking' not a negative? > > South of the Equator, West of the dateline, everywhere. Alan, At the time, I took your "...look weird... " comment in the sense of "... look excentric..." and similar notions. I never understood you to be giving a negative judgement so I consider those who DO, are at the very least, rather narrow in judgement of your character. Besides, I have 'known' you for about 5 months and I cannot say in any way thay you are a negative person or one who is given to negative judgements of others character. Staid, perhaps. Even conservative ... Perhaps it comes from us two being of a similar culture ? Frank >"Alan S" <loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> a écrit ... >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Frank Perhaps (an Aussie similar to a brit living in France:-) Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts > Alan, > At the time, I took your "...look weird... " comment in the sense [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Staid, perhaps. Even conservative ... > Perhaps it comes from us two being of a similar culture ? NO ONE judged Alan's character based upon those words. What has been under discussion are the connotations and impact of the words themselves. Any other interpretation is in the imagination of those making it. Susan In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:29:03 -0500 in Msg.# > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Any other interpretation is in the imagination of those making it. Of course no one judged Alan's character. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive & usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us & is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair." - H. L. Mencken On 11/27/07 8:05 PM, in article 474ce924$0$4646$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-06.noos.net, "Frank t2" <a@b.c> wrote: > "Alan S" <loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> a écrit ... >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Frank I agree. I come from the same similar culture. A thought has occurred to me that possibly these ladies equate weird as a synonym for queer. That of course is a pejorative. Any way Alan, I still love you. SignatureMartha Irwin T2 Canada 1500mg. Metformin, 4mg. Avandia MI wrote in message ... >I agree. I come from the same similar culture. A thought has occurred to me >that possibly these ladies equate weird as a synonym for queer. That of >course is a pejorative. Any way Alan, I still love you. I still love *all* the posters in this thread. :-) Cheri >I still love *all* the posters in this thread. :-) > >Cheri Happy Christmaskwanzahanukkah to you too. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . Màck©® wrote in message ... >>I still love *all* the posters in this thread. :-) >> >>Cheri > >Happy Christmaskwanzahanukkah to you too. And to all of you too!!! Cheri > I agree. I come from the same similar culture. A thought has occurred to > me > that possibly these ladies equate weird as a synonym for queer. That of > course is a pejorative. Any way Alan, I still love you. Not me. I have used the word weird in reference to people, to their face. As in, "You're weird!" In response to something they said or did. When one man said, "Thank you!" I replied, "I didn't mean that in a GOOD way!" To me, weird means someone so far outside of society that they haven't a clue. Or maybe so outside of this world that they don't even know it. What did the man do that was weird? We'd gone to an Italian restaurant and he kept ordering mixed drink after mixed drink off the menu. He wasn't drinking any of them. When he reached about drink number 7, they refused to serve him and he pitched a fit. He said he was the customer and they had to do as he said. The waitress then told him that the concern was he would drink all of the drinks at once and get really drunk. This was not something they wanted. He replied that he had no intent of drinking the drinks, but just wanted them and he was going to pay for them. This kind of behavior just defies anything I can think of. To me, that's weird. And it's not good. > In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:50:29 +1100 in Msg.# > <13kmmu350qh3g1e@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> > wrote: >> > In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:45:39 -0500 in Msg.# >> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> But there is nothing in any dictionary that shows it is a judgmental word. > Dictionary -> denotation; Usage -> connotation. > In what universe is 'weird looking' not a negative? <G> And, I mean that > quite seriously. The universe of weirdies. They have special terms of disapproval and disrespect for normal ordinary looking people :-) SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] > But there is nothing in any dictionary that shows it is a judgmental word. Words have connotations, Jan, in human communications. Susan >>>>>> x-no-archive: yes >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > Well, it certainly isn't nice to say that someone is weird. I don't think > he's weird at all. How about Angela's future boyfriend with 20 rusty rings coming out of every orifice, eyebrow, nipple (you get the picture) and tattoos all over his face? Ok, silly analogy but hey, I have seen my kids bring home some weird looking characters, nice kids, but weird looking. >>>>>>> x-no-archive: yes >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >face? Ok, silly analogy but hey, I have seen my kids bring home some weird >looking characters, nice kids, but weird looking. You've already got me worried about my grand-daughter's future beaux - and she's only 3... Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts >> Well, it certainly isn't nice to say that someone is weird. I don't >> think he's weird at all. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > his face? Ok, silly analogy but hey, I have seen my kids bring home some > weird looking characters, nice kids, but weird looking. That really wouldn't bother me at all. I'm not personally into tattoos and piercings, but I do strive to be different and I hope I am teaching her the same. We all express ourselves our own way. And really, piercings and tattoos are quite common here. My mom dated a biker with an earring before she met my dad. This was back in the 1950's. I was taught that it is rude to comment on what people look like. Now Britney Spears is a different matter. As one person put it, she is "One hot mess!" >Now Britney Spears is a different matter. As one person put it, she is "One >hot mess!" Exectly my thoughts on Boy George... Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts >>Now Britney Spears is a different matter. As one person put it, she is "One >>hot mess!" [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg >Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. I need my migraine meds now, that you very much for that Alan. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > Well, it certainly isn't nice to say that someone is weird. I don't think > he's weird at all. I think it depends on context. Alan has explained enough what he meant that I'd personally not be offended if he called me weird. On the other hand, I'd be a tad offended if someone called me normal, average and nondescript. But then, I'm weird. ;) Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:47:32 -0500 in Msg.# <474ace76$0$27061$470ef3ce@news.pa.net>, Jackie Patti <jpatti@ccil.org> wrote: > But then, I'm weird. ;) Oh, I am definitely weird & so are the people most important to me. But, that's not the same thing as weird looking. I know I'm weird close up. I know those people as weird close up. However, they just look like people & judging them as other than that is, to me, wrong, ... as I have said. And, no one has to agree with me! That I have NOT said. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "I can't believe you would've trusted the Shadows when they said they were on your side. They just wanted you to waste your resources fighting each other." - Capt. Sheridan, B5 "Interludes & Examinations" >>>> x-no-archive: yes >>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >He apparently has not been to Seattle or San Francisco, or Provincetown... He doesn't need to - weirdest person I've ever seen was in downtown Brisbane... Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 100ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25 >>>> x-no-archive: yes >>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >He apparently has not been to Seattle or San Francisco, or Provincetown... wouldn't make any difference. Boy George is weird. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >>>>> x-no-archive: yes >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > wouldn't make any difference. Boy George is weird. Again, I disagree. >>> x-no-archive: yes >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >I may be on the wrong track here but I read Alan's comment as finding Boy >George's use of make up, eyebrow plucking etc as looking weird. Ta. Definitely closer to my intent than the over-reacting responses are reading. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:29:15 +1100 in Msg.# <dspkk315i75jieuiqni0mttn5ik55bh71i@4ax.com>, Alan S <loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote: > >I may be on the wrong track here but I read Alan's comment as finding Boy > >George's use of make up, eyebrow plucking etc as looking weird. > > > Ta. Definitely closer to my intent than the over-reacting > responses are reading. Whoa. Over-reacting?!! Look, I disagree with you about this. I didn't think you were thinking of something else. I wasn't confused. I am reacting to what you said & what you meant & do not appreciate your characterizing it as over-reaction. So much for my characterizing it as simply people disagreeing. Sheesh. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel Ivanova: "Let's try this again." Zathras 2: "As you wish." Ivanova: "Zathras came with us to Babylon 4." Zathras 2: "Yes." Ivanova: "Zathras stayed in the past with Valen." Zathras 2: "Yes" Ivanova: "You're Zathras." Zathras 2: "Yes!" Ivanova: "Therefor you went into the Past!!" Zathras 2: "No. That was not Zathras, that was Zathras." BABYLON 5 >Whoa. Over-reacting?!! Look, I disagree with you about this. I didn't think >you were thinking of something else. I wasn't confused. I am reacting to >what you said & what you meant & do not appreciate your characterizing it as >over-reaction. > >So much for my characterizing it as simply people disagreeing. Sheesh. Sheesh. More like whoosh. If you take the time to re-read everything we both wrote, slowly over a steaming coffee, I think you'll find there is a failure to communicate here. At least, I certainly hope so. In the interests of not exacerbating that I'll leave the last word to you, or anyone else who wants to add another "me too". Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts On 11/25/07 11:56 PM, in article 7sukk35skijec42c1vbevgs1pb8fsroud3@4ax.com, >> Whoa. Over-reacting?!! Look, I disagree with you about this. I didn't think >> you were thinking of something else. I wasn't confused. I am reacting to [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com > Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts Alan, it appears that some here have a different meaning for, or understanding of the word "weird". How it could be insulting and likewise "ordinary' is beyond me. SignatureMartha Irwin T2 Canada 1500mg. Metformin, 4mg. Avandia > On 11/25/07 11:56 PM, in article > 7sukk35skijec42c1vbevgs1pb8fsroud3@4ax.com, [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > understanding of the word "weird". How it could be insulting and likewise > "ordinary' is beyond me. I think dictionaries should be obsolete, people will put their own meanings on words anyway. In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:44:09 +1100 in Msg.# <13kmmi7c2nuu655@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote: > > Alan, it appears that some here have a different meaning for, or > > understanding of the word "weird". How it could be insulting and likewise > > "ordinary' is beyond me. I don't understand what your second sentence here means. I can't parse it at all. > I think dictionaries should be obsolete, people will put their own meanings > on words anyway. They serve a certain purpose, but they are not the be-all and end-all of word usage, no. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "When a dog barks at the moon, then it is religion; but when he barks at strangers, it is patriotism!" - David Starr Jordan > On 11/25/07 11:56 PM, in article > 7sukk35skijec42c1vbevgs1pb8fsroud3@4ax.com, [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > understanding of the word "weird". How it could be insulting and likewise > "ordinary' is beyond me. Well, to me... To say that someone is ordinary is to say they are not special. I believe we are all special and we should celebrate our differences. I know not everyone thinks this way and I do know some people who go out of their way to appear ordinary. > I may be on the wrong track here but I read Alan's comment as finding Boy > George's use of make up, eyebrow plucking etc as looking weird. EXACTLY. So did I. Susan > >> x-no-archive: yes > >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I may be on the wrong track here but I read Alan's comment as finding Boy > George's use of make up, eyebrow plucking etc as looking weird. Yes, and that's what some of us are objecting to. Priscilla >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Priscilla, no beauty queen herself I got called M'sieur 5 times yesterday at work. That's only slightly higher than average. Vicki - plain and tall percy wrote in message ... >I got called M'sieur 5 times yesterday at work. That's only slightly >higher than average. > >Vicki - plain and tall LOL Vicki. I have the same thing going on with my voice on the phone. People always assume I'm a man, even when I say my name is Cheri (does anybody really know men named Cheri) It does come in handy when you need to get something done though, since customer service people always pay more attention when it's a man calling. Sad but true. :-) Cheri > LOL Vicki. I have the same thing going on with my voice on the phone. > People always assume I'm a man, even when I say my name is Cheri (does > anybody really know men named Cheri) It does come in handy when you > need to get something done though, since customer service people > always pay more attention when it's a man calling. Sad but true. :-) It's only been about 10 years that folks have stopped asking to speak to my mother when I answer the phone. One online acquaintance heard me on her answering machine and said "you sound like you're 15." Thankfully, never happens now. Susan > >> x-no-archive: yes > >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Vicki - plain and tall When it gets really cold and my Baxter State Parka goes on my back, I get a lot of "Sirs." Priscilla, 5'10" tall > x-no-archive: yes > >> Of course, I think it's appalling that someone would be labeled 'weird >> looking' for an androgynous appearance. > > What she said. What they said. >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Susan You have both jumped to conclusions based on very slim evidence. Do I detect the odour of moral outrage? Apparently it's appalling to honestly express a non-PC opinion. You're both entitled to your opinion. As am I. You probably think I look weird too. The difference is that I would find that neither appalling nor offensive. I'm afraid I won't be changing my old-fashioned opinion on appearances. I tend to prefer that guys look like guys and girls look like girls, at least most of the time. But don't make the mistake of thinking my opinions on androgynous appearance has anything to do with homophobia. I couldn't care less what other people do in the privacy of their bedroom, as long as I'm not in the bed with them. That's another appallingly old-fashioned attitude of mine. I prefer that aspect of life to remain in the privacy of people's homes, rather than be paraded in public. I drove cabs on the night shift for nearly 17 years in a major city; I've met and been friends with people you would run from screaming. Some were weird, some thought I was, some were nuts, they were every gender including trannies and every sexuality including some you can't imagine. The night people are a different world; many were very weird and some would be annoyed if I thought they weren't. I treat people as I find them and as they treat me, regardless of creed, colour, sexuality etc. And I still find Boy George weird:-) Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:28:20 +1100 in Msg.# <1dokk3ptgog82eo7peq82lmaosqaj4bmqc@4ax.com>, Alan S <loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote: > >x-no-archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > evidence. Do I detect the odour of moral outrage? Apparently > it's appalling to honestly express a non-PC opinion. Personally I think so-called 'PC' is more or less full of it. It once had a meaning. It no longer does. > You're both entitled to your opinion. As am I. You probably > think I look weird too. That's where you're wrong. > The difference is that I would find > that neither appalling nor offensive. > > I'm afraid I won't be changing my old-fashioned opinion on > appearances. I don't think it has anything to do with old-fashioned attitudes either. > I tend to prefer that guys look like guys and > girls look like girls, at least most of the time. Once again preference is being tangled up with judging someone based on externals, where externals are the ways in which we express who we are ... > ... But don't > make the mistake of thinking my opinions on androgynous > appearance has anything to do with homophobia. I couldn't > care less what other people do in the privacy of their > bedroom, as long as I'm not in the bed with them. However, that statement is a lot like, 'I don't have anything against gay people as long as they keep it to themselves.' And, if someone feels that you have to be in the closet, then, ho, yes, that very well can be a sign of homophobia. I'm not saying you are. I'm not saying you aren't. I don't know whether you are or not. But, I've known many homophobes to make the statement you just did. > That's another appallingly old-fashioned attitude of mine. I > prefer that aspect of life to remain in the privacy of > people's homes, rather than be paraded in public. Being themselves, you mean? SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel "I only hope that in your stumbling around, you do not wake the dragon." - Londo Mollari B5 >> That's another appallingly old-fashioned attitude of mine. I >> prefer that aspect of life to remain in the privacy of >> people's homes, rather than be paraded in public. > >Being themselves, you mean? No, that's not what I mean. Nor were the other things you extended from my earlier comments what I meant. I said exactly what I meant, no more, no less. But for some reason others seem to need to interpret my words. So, obviously, we are failing to communicate. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:48:25 +1100 in Msg.# <9u1lk3hiop2ugd45q4os8jfp58kv4ergro@4ax.com>, Alan S <loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote: > >> That's another appallingly old-fashioned attitude of mine. I > >> prefer that aspect of life to remain in the privacy of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > others seem to need to interpret my words. So, obviously, we > are failing to communicate. I don't agree. If you ask me, I'm going by what you are posting. But, it's okay to disagree. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "I would of course prefer you be conscious but I do not know what your pleasure threshold is." - Ambassador G'Kar B5 > In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:28:20 +1100 in Msg.# > <1dokk3ptgog82eo7peq82lmaosqaj4bmqc@4ax.com>, Alan S [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > whether you are or not. But, I've known many homophobes to make the > statement you just did. Here I'd agree with you. Straight people "flaunt" heterosexuality all the time, referring to their spouses, boyfriends and girlfriends, "hot" celebrities, etc. I'm remembering a particular job I had at a time when I identified as lesbian (an identification that has ceased applying since I married a male!) One day, a bunch of women I worked with were chatting with me about Mel Gibson's a.s and how hot he was. Aside from absolutely *despising* the man, there was no way to tell them I was squicked by discussing male anatomy without outting myself. Of course, had *I* outted myself, I'd have been discussing inappropriate stuff at work, whereas their discussion of his a.s was just normal conversation. It's not "non-private" to be straight, but being queer is too-much-information. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ >> In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:28:20 +1100 in Msg.# >> <1dokk3ptgog82eo7peq82lmaosqaj4bmqc@4ax.com>, Alan S [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > conversation. It's not "non-private" to be straight, but being queer is > too-much-information. One thing that gets me is a pregnant woman. When I was a kid, women usually tried to cover up the pregnancy until they were really showing and had no choice. Now they don't do that at all. Isn't that flaunting their sexuality? Not that it's a bad thing. Just a really obvious thing. On 11/26/07 8:49 AM, in article 2OC2j.5865$Jy1.486@trndny02, "Julie Bove" <juliebove@verizon.net> wrote: >>> In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:28:20 +1100 in Msg.# >>> <1dokk3ptgog82eo7peq82lmaosqaj4bmqc@4ax.com>, Alan S [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > choice. Now they don't do that at all. Isn't that flaunting their > sexuality? Not that it's a bad thing. Just a really obvious thing. Is it really flaunting sexuality or the joy having a child? The women I know are extremely happy about having a baby and want to share that joy with everyone. That's not flaunting sexuality to me. SignatureMartha Irwin T2 Canada 1500mg. Metformin, 4mg. Avandia > Is it really flaunting sexuality or the joy having a child? The women I know > are extremely happy about having a baby and want to share that joy with > everyone. That's not flaunting sexuality to me. Nor to me. Susan In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:53:04 GMT in Msg.# > On 11/26/07 8:49 AM, in article 2OC2j.5865$Jy1.486@trndny02, "Julie Bove" > <juliebove@verizon.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > are extremely happy about having a baby and want to share that joy with > everyone. That's not flaunting sexuality to me. Me either. I'm glad people don't somehow hide out for 'x' months while pregnant. It's a natural part of life. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "Zathras understand ... no, Zathras not understand ... but Zathras DO. Zathras good at doings not understandings." - Zathras, B5, "War Without End" > Is it really flaunting sexuality or the joy having a child? The women I > know > are extremely happy about having a baby and want to share that joy with > everyone. That's not flaunting sexuality to me. You have to have sex to have a baby! In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:59:06 GMT in Msg.# <e5J2j.22483$701.19148@trndny08>, "Julie Bove" <juliebove@verizon.net> wrote: > > Is it really flaunting sexuality or the joy having a child? The women I > > know > > are extremely happy about having a baby and want to share that joy with > > everyone. That's not flaunting sexuality to me. > > You have to have sex to have a baby! No, you don't. LOL SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "What does the Bible have to say about homosexuality... very little. What people get mixed up about is that the church has a lot to say on the subject of homosexuality. There are a lot of 'Shalt Nots' in religion, but they don't necessarily come from the Scriptures. Jesus had a lot to say about divorce, about women, about almost everything. Therefore, if homosexuality was an issue for him, how come we don't know about it?'' - Rev. Rayner Hesse Jr., Priest > In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:59:06 GMT in Msg.# > <e5J2j.22483$701.19148@trndny08>, "Julie Bove" <juliebove@verizon.net> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > No, you don't. LOL True. But that's how they usually get here. >> In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:59:06 GMT in Msg.# >> <e5J2j.22483$701.19148@trndny08>, "Julie Bove" <juliebove@verizon.net> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > True. But that's how they usually get here. But that is sooo 1970 ;) Julie Bove wrote in message ... >> Is it really flaunting sexuality or the joy having a child? The women I >> know >> are extremely happy about having a baby and want to share that joy with >> everyone. That's not flaunting sexuality to me. > >You have to have sex to have a baby! Not anymore, you don't. Cheri > You have to have sex to have a baby! Um, no you don't. You might just need a baster. Susan > > Is it really flaunting sexuality or the joy having a child? The women I > > know > > are extremely happy about having a baby and want to share that joy with > > everyone. That's not flaunting sexuality to me. > > You have to have sex to have a baby! No you don't. You need to somehow get sperm to an egg. That doesn't necessarily require sex, although I do know lesbians who say that the turkey baster method works best when used in the context of sex. Priscilla >> Is it really flaunting sexuality or the joy having a child? The women I >> know >> are extremely happy about having a baby and want to share that joy with >> everyone. That's not flaunting sexuality to me. > >You have to have sex to have a baby! no you don't. it's just more fun getting there if you do. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > On 11/26/07 8:49 AM, in article 2OC2j.5865$Jy1.486@trndny02, "Julie Bove" > <juliebove@verizon.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > are extremely happy about having a baby and want to share that joy with > everyone. That's not flaunting sexuality to me. Me neither but I don't think that's what its about here. I know plenty of people who are gay and you would never be able to tell unless you knew them personally. Ditto heterosexual people. People who walk and talk in an "affected" way is a different kettle of fish. I see no need for someone to do that. > Me neither but I don't think that's what its about here. I know plenty of > people who are gay and you would never be able to tell unless you knew them > personally. Ditto heterosexual people. People who walk and talk in an > "affected" way is a different kettle of fish. I see no need for someone to > do that. Jan, that attitude is truly disgusting and repellent to me. I don't care if a man is sitting next to me with a full beard in a dress and heels, and I can't imagine why you give a fu*k. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > if a man is sitting next to me with a full beard in a dress and heels, and > I can't imagine why you give a fu*k. Exactly. There used to be a man who lived in this area. He was married with children and he always wore a skirt. Always! Often the skirt was made of leather. He also had really long hair. People would stare and make rude comments and I could never understand that. > Exactly. There used to be a man who lived in this area. He was married > with children and he always wore a skirt. Always! Often the skirt was made > of leather. He also had really long hair. People would stare and make rude > comments and I could never understand that. I can understand the staring, but not the rudeness. The other day, we were getting gas and a little girl maybe 7 or 8 in the next car kept staring at Steve the whole time. She watched him as he set the pump, walked around the vehicle and cleaned the windows, etc. It was very obvious she was fascinated by him. We live in a very conservative area so she may have never seen a person with both hair down the middle of the back and a beard down their front, maybe she thought hippies were only from movies. I teased him that she must have never seen a Canadian before. ;) Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ >> Exactly. There used to be a man who lived in this area. He was married >> with children and he always wore a skirt. Always! Often the skirt was [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I teased him that she must have never seen a Canadian before. ;) There used to be a Mexican restaurant here and one of the waiters was very short and had small feet. He had on women's shoes (high heels), quite a lot of jewelry and makeup. His hairstyle appeared to be male and he was wearing men's clothing. The standard black pants and white shirt that wait staff often wears. As he was waiting on us, Angela's mouth gaped open. She couldn't say a thing. Then after he left, she whispered to me, "Why is that man wearing women's shoes?" I told her he was short and probably felt the need to be taller. She appeared to mull this over and then said, "Oh. Okay then." And it was over. She has since referred to him as the man who wears women's shoes. And when she says that, everyone knows who she is talking about. I guess these days people are less likely to freak out over such stuff, at least in this area. I don't recall anyone ever staring at him or making rude comments. Maybe they did, but I didn't notice. And he continued to work there for a couple of years until the place closed. > We live in a very conservative area so she may have never seen a person > with both hair down the middle of the back and a beard down their front, > maybe she thought hippies were only from movies. Aren't there like a gazillion Amish out that way Jackie or are they more north of you. Just tell Steve to go buy a straw hat... John C. >> We live in a very conservative area so she may have never seen a person >> with both hair down the middle of the back and a beard down their front, >> maybe she thought hippies were only from movies. > > Aren't there like a gazillion Amish out that way Jackie or are they > more north of you. Just tell Steve to go buy a straw hat... Amish men don't have long hair though, just the long beards. And yes, we have a lot of Amish here, but more Mennonites. The Mennonites drive cars and such, and while they dress differently from us, they dress different from the Amish also. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > if a man is sitting next to me with a full beard in a dress and heels, and > I can't imagine why you give a fu*k. I don't mean about sitting in a dress in a beard, I mean "mincing". Why should someone feel the need to "mince". If someone is comfortable with their sexuality, whichever flavour, they shouldn't need to pretend. > > x-no-archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > should someone feel the need to "mince". If someone is comfortable with > their sexuality, whichever flavour, they shouldn't need to pretend. You're right. They shouldn't need to pretend. They should be able to mince all they want. What business is it of yours how someone else speaks or uses their hands or their hips or whatever it is that you find so disturbing? And why do you assume it's put on and not their natural way of being? (Clue: for some, it is.) Priscilla, not going to modify her forthright stride in comfortable shoes for any bigot >> > x-no-archive: yes >> > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > you assume it's put on and not their natural way of being? (Clue: for > some, it is.) When you grow up with people who don't mince and then they suddenly do then it's pretty obvious it isn't their norm. > Priscilla, not going to modify her forthright stride in comfortable > shoes for any bigot But I bet you have always had a forthright stride and I bet you feel comfortable in your own skin - at least that is how you come across in here. Teenage girls aren't born wiggling their arses when they see a member of the opposite sex. I am not particularly disturbed by mincing, I just don't "understand" why people feel they have to put on an act. Is being one's normal self so wrong? > When you grow up with people who don't mince and then they suddenly do then > it's pretty obvious it isn't their norm. Total nonsense, Jan. Folks evolve, and they grow and they also reach a point where they stop pretending NOT to be that way. > But I bet you have always had a forthright stride and I bet you feel > comfortable in your own skin - at least that is how you come across in here. > Teenage girls aren't born wiggling their arses when they see a member of the > opposite sex. I am not particularly disturbed by mincing, I just don't > "understand" why people feel they have to put on an act. Is being one's > normal self so wrong? It's not an act. It's natural to them. Not doing so previously meant they didn't feel safe, or they hadn't developed a realization of their orientation or personal style. Do you really have all the same mannerisms, without change, that you had as a child? If so, that's called stunted development. Susan > But I bet you have always had a forthright stride and I bet you feel > comfortable in your own skin - at least that is how you come across in > here. Teenage girls aren't born wiggling their arses when they see a > member of the opposite sex. I am not particularly disturbed by mincing, I > just don't "understand" why people feel they have to put on an act. Is > being one's normal self so wrong? For starters, it may not be an act. It may just be how the person naturally is. I've always been dramatic. My mom used to (and still does) Theda Bara. She was a silent film actress who was very dramatic. The name didn't mean much to me because I never saw any of her work. Now I have Angela and she is every bit as dramatic as I am. Is it because she learned it from me? I don't know. Could be. But who did *I* learn it from? Not my parents. I also know people who have said when out in public, they feel the need to be "on" all the time. By that I mean entertaining, whether it is being dramatic, comedic or whatever gets people's attention. I guess to some degree I would fall into that category as well. Angela does not because she is naturally very shy. She will be this way only around people she knows well. My friend's brother is a very entertaining sort. He will take the most mundane and boring story and turn it into something hilarious! I love to listen to him tell stories. But he says when he gets home and is all alone, he is exhausted from feeling the need to be "on" all the time. I also know other people who seem to expend a lot of energy just trying not to be noticed. I had a friend who was always worried that people were looking at her, or staring at her or whatever. She made sure her hair was neither too long nor too short. And she hated it to look freshly trimmed. Her clothes needed to be non-descript. Not too far out of fashion but not trendy and she usually wore shades of grayish blue, tan, brown, beige, gray or maybe navy. Nothing too dark or too light. She also took pains to modify the clothes to make them look like they were not too new. She used to practice speaking so that her voice was neither too soft nor too loud. She loved playing tennis and was very good at it but she didn't want to be known as the best on the team, so she would make deliberate mistakes just so she wouldn't win all the matches because being the best would call attention to her. She preferred being second best or even third. I used to think it would really suck to be her because she was obviously very uncomfortable with herself. So it can go both ways with people expending a great amount of energy for no apparent reason. Then there are the rest of us who are comfortable in our own skin. Some people may eventually get to that point and some never will. >When you grow up with people who don't mince and then they suddenly do then >it's pretty obvious it isn't their norm. > >> Priscilla, not going to modify her forthright stride in comfortable >> shoes for any bigot for some, when they finally break out of their closet, it is a bit of over compensation when experiencing the freedom to be themselves. For others it is a matter of finding out who they are after spending a life time of hiding from themselves and others. The Coming Out stage is accompanied by a growing up and experimentation stage. And that stage is greatly influenced by the people they make friends with at that time. For some others, camp, is just having fun. what you really need to take a look at is, those who did this in your life were hiding themselves from you while they were growing up. You didn't actually know them as well as you thought you did, and they are now starting to get to know themselves. >But I bet you have always had a forthright stride and I bet you feel >comfortable in your own skin - at least that is how you come across in here. and how did she to get this point? what was the journey actually like? >Teenage girls aren't born wiggling their arses when they see a member of the >opposite sex. I am not particularly disturbed by mincing, I just don't >"understand" why people feel they have to put on an act. society and families do not tell teenage girls and boys that they are acceptable as they are. Children are taught they have to fit a mold. >Is being one's normal self so wrong? think about it some more. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >>When you grow up with people who don't mince and then they suddenly do >>then [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > know them as well as you thought you did, and they are now starting to > get to know themselves. This is probably true but still, society should be such that a person can be openly gay or whatever else without needing to put on some kind of face. But I guess that is pie in the sky thinking. Total acceptance will never happen. A teenage girl I know is about 18 now. She has a large family, 3 sisters, 2 brothers, mother and step father. When she was 13 she told her mum she was pretty sure she was gay. The entire family accepted it unconditionally - so did her best friends (probably a novelty for 13 year old girls where we live). Despite the acceptance (and no need to hide away) the girl still went on to wear what is a common "uniform" here for Lesbians - cropped hair, baggy pants, heavy shoes etc. At 15 she got a girlfriend and kept the uniform thing going for about a year then suddenly went back to long hair, dresses, make up etc, ditto the girlfriend. At 18 she still has the same girlfriend but they both seem to be very comfortable with who they are. >>>When you grow up with people who don't mince and then they suddenly do >>>then [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >openly gay or whatever else without needing to put on some kind of face. But >I guess that is pie in the sky thinking. Total acceptance will never happen. Acceptance and Tolerance are 2 different things, tolerance has to come first. Acceptance cannot be dictated by anyone and will come in degrees. >A teenage girl I know is about 18 now. She has a large family, 3 sisters, 2 >brothers, mother and step father. When she was 13 she told her mum she was [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >dresses, make up etc, ditto the girlfriend. At 18 she still has the same >girlfriend but they both seem to be very comfortable with who they are. you just illustrated my point. it's a growing up process. Give them another 10 years and they will not be the same people they are today. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > This is probably true but still, society should be such that a person can be > openly gay or whatever else without needing to put on some kind of face. But [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > dresses, make up etc, ditto the girlfriend. At 18 she still has the same > girlfriend but they both seem to be very comfortable with who they are. I remember wondering stuff like that... if I should cut my hair short, buy a leather jacket and a motorcycle. I decided not, but it doesn't surprise me at all that other kids go through that. I don't know if it's "not being themselves" or trying to figure out who one's self is. Sometimes you have to try on a few things to find a self that "fits" properly. The other teenage girl behaviour you've discussed, I remember my daughter going through that. There was a time when boys were interested in her but she wasn't interested in them yet. When she was around 12, she discovered she could make boys jump through hoops and fight over her by waggling her a.s a bit. She didn't take their feelings very seriously, but rather just enjoyed the power of being desired. It was new and she played with her sexuality in her social interactions before she became a bit wiser and was able to put sexuality in context. I've seen people behave like that at a much older age and probably for similar reasons. Most people get "over" the discovery that they're sexual. For a time, it can feel like *this* is your "real" self and it takes a while to remember all the other stuff is just as real too and be a bit balanced about it. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ >>> I don't mean about sitting in a dress in a beard, I mean "mincing". Why >>> should someone feel the need to "mince". If someone is comfortable with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> you assume it's put on and not their natural way of being? (Clue: for >> some, it is.) > When you grow up with people who don't mince and then they suddenly do then > it's pretty obvious it isn't their norm. I was clean shaven and short haired until I was 20, at which time I stopped shaving my face and cutting my hair. I can't remember how long it took for my hair to get down past my shoulders. I guess it was probably a couple of years. I stayed like that for most of the next forty years. Often in the middle of the summer I'd shave the beard off and get a haircut. To begin with it was obvious to many people, including my mother, that I was reverting to norm when I shaved and got a haircut. After I'd been a long haired beardie for decades it was obvious that getting a haircut and shave was the aberration from norm. Which raises the interesting question of how long I had to have been a long haired beardie before it became my norm instead a deviation from norm. That in turn begs the question of whether averages and history are the right way of establishing a norm. I'd like to remind folk of Camus's observation that "Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal." I am, by the way, weird in the positive sense, unless of course you're one of those for whom weirdness is inherently negative. SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] >I am, by the way, weird in the positive sense, unless of course you're >one of those for whom weirdness is inherently negative. Thank you. Me too:-) Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts In alt.support.diabetes on 27 Nov 2007 13:00:44 GMT in Msg.# <5r2insF12f0inU1@mid.individual.net>, Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote: > I was clean shaven and short haired until I was 20, at which time I > stopped shaving my face and cutting my hair. I can't remember how long [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I am, by the way, weird in the positive sense, unless of course you're > one of those for whom weirdness is inherently negative. Well put. And, I am, too. Of course, I've already said that. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to a garage makes you an automobile." - Billy Sunday (1862-1935) > > Priscilla, not going to modify her forthright stride in comfortable > > shoes for any bigot > > But I bet you have always had a forthright stride and I bet you feel > comfortable in your own skin - at least that is how you come across in here. I've had *decades* of therapy (which continues), plus 12 step programs, plus all the aspects of coming out. A few years ago I got together again with someone I'd been in high school with. Since there were 25 in our graduating class, we'd spent a fair amount of time rubbing shoulders. He was astonished at who I am these days. I was extremely different from who I'd been in high school. Priscilla > I've had *decades* of therapy (which continues), plus 12 step programs, > plus all the aspects of coming out. A few years ago I got together > again with someone I'd been in high school with. Since there were 25 in > our graduating class, we'd spent a fair amount of time rubbing > shoulders. He was astonished at who I am these days. I was extremely > different from who I'd been in high school. LOL... in the past few years, I've had reunions with not only HS friends, but with those from when I was 8-12 y.o. My friend's, my kid's and Tom's jaws dropped when they heard how quiet and shy I was. "Very quiet and shy" is how my oldest friends remembered me. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > My friend's, my kid's and Tom's jaws dropped when they heard how quiet > and shy I was. "Very quiet and shy" is how my oldest friends remembered me. When I say to the Dean of the Cathedral that I used to be quiet and rarely heard from he cracks up and says he has a really hard time believing me. Not that he thinks I'm lying, but it's *so* different from the loud mouth me he has to deal with! LOL! Priscilla, who has found her voice > I don't mean about sitting in a dress in a beard, I mean "mincing". Why > should someone feel the need to "mince". If someone is comfortable with > their sexuality, whichever flavour, they shouldn't need to pretend. Jan, that's a truly ignorant and prejudiced view. self expression, what you call "mincing" comes as naturally to them as your behavior comes to you. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > self expression, what you call "mincing" comes as naturally to them as > your behavior comes to you. As I said to Priscilla, a few people I have know since they were kids only started the mincing and affected talk in their middle to late teens. It didn't come naturally. That's what I am talking about. I feel sad they feel the need to do that. One guy once told me it was to "tell" everyone he was gay so others gays could approach him?? > As I said to Priscilla, a few people I have know since they were kids only > started the mincing and affected talk in their middle to late teens. It > didn't come naturally. That's what I am talking about. I feel sad they feel > the need to do that. One guy once told me it was to "tell" everyone he was > gay so others gays could approach him?? This is so jaw droppingly presumptuous and profoundly ignorant of human nature and development that I have nothing more to say. I guess heterosexual folks don't "display" certain styles or mannerisms so that other heterosexuals will approach them? You just don't notice it because your bias is against open homosexuals. I know you think you're being perfectly reasonable, but I'm finding your lack of insight and your prejudice very sad and even pitiable. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > This is so jaw droppingly presumptuous and profoundly ignorant of human > nature and development that I have nothing more to say. How can it be presumptuous when it comes straight from the mouth of a gay guy? > I guess heterosexual folks don't "display" certain styles or mannerisms so > that other heterosexuals will approach them? You just don't notice it > because your bias is against open homosexuals. I have already said that girls wiggle their arses in front of guys. I have seen it, I have stated that I don't understand the need for it. There is no bias here, people of all sexual orientations do it. Guys do certain things in fornt of women also. I see no need period for anyone to put on an act to be noticed by someone. know you think you're being perfectly reasonable, but I'm finding your > lack of insight and your prejudice very sad and even pitiable. Then you aren't looking properly. I guess I now have a prejudice against the whole human race? In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:31:53 +1100 in Msg.# <13kn0cmhf13d781@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote: > >> As I said to Priscilla, a few people I have know since they were kids > >> only started the mincing and affected talk in their middle to late teens. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > How can it be presumptuous when it comes straight from the mouth of a gay > guy? Because you are the one who is presuming that it is both sad and unnatural. > > I guess heterosexual folks don't "display" certain styles or mannerisms so > > that other heterosexuals will approach them? You just don't notice it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > in fornt of women also. I see no need period for anyone to put on an act to > be noticed by someone. What makes it an act? SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "To know a person's religion we need not listen to his profession of faith but must find his brand of intolerance." - Eric Hoffer > What makes it an act? Jan thinks it's an act because they didn't behave that way before they were sexually mature. Jan thinks folks should behave the same way at 18 that they did at 3, 6, 8 and 10, or they're faking. Unbelievable, just unfuc*ingbelievable. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Unbelievable, just unfuc*ingbelievable. What about 40? Or 60? A wee bit past sexual maturity. Have you never known people who led sheltered lives and have never displayed the signs of sexual maturity that you are talking about, as in arse wiggling or whatever? It's not a given that people immediately start acting in certain ways just because they became sexually mature. There are many learned responses in life. People are free to put on whatever little act they feel necessary to attract the sex of their choice, I just don't see the need for it. That doesn't make me homophobic, bigoted or biased. I don't see the need for killing people or sexually abusing children. >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > for it. That doesn't make me homophobic, bigoted or biased. I don't see > the need for killing people or sexually abusing children. People do not act in proscribed ways. Some people are flirty and some people are not. Those who are might be that way for life or it might start at any time of their life. I used to work with a woman who was in her 40's and lost a lot of weight. She began wearing really short skirts and wore her short hair in tiny pigtails or clipped on little plastic barrettes intended for toddlers or young girls. The style of clothing she wore seemed to me to be more suitable for about a 6 year old and at times I wondered where she even found the stuff in her size! She was often late for work because she'd stop by the beauty parlor to have long false lashes or fake nails applied. To the rest of us, it seemed sadly comical. But she couldn't see that she was doing anything wrong, even when she got called on the carpet and was told she was dressing inappropriately for work. Why did she do this? Well, I'm not a psych major, but I can venture to guess. I worked with another woman who was addicted to drugs and alcohol. Several of us attended AA meetings and other group sessions with her at the hospital where she was getting "clean". We were told that when one has an addiction like drugs and alcohol, they tend to stay emotionally at whatever age they were at the time they began the addiction. In this case it was age 8. And surely enough, it did appear in her case that the world was like a bright shiny new place and she was looking at it through the eyes of a child when she finally did sober up. In the case of the woman who lost the weight, I think perhaps she started packing on the pounds as a young child. I don't know this for sure. Just guessing. So perhaps after she lost that weight (with food being her addiction) she was taken back to that age and began dressing as she did back then. She also began acting rather flirty towards men at that time, batting the false eyelashes around. I think sometimes when major changes occur like this in people's lives, they no longer know how to act. They don't feel like their old selves and they can no longer rely on those crutches be they drugs, alcohol, food or whatever. They feel they need to make some sort of change, and perhaps it's not necessarily a good change. Just a guess on my part. I also study astrology. I very much believe a great deal of who we are is predetermined from birth. But I also don't believe it has to stay that way. Not for everyone anyway... Some people are certainly more stubborn and resistant to change. Some people will never change. Some people will come to realize that something in their life isn't going so well for them and they will make an effort to change it. With me, I used to walk like a duck. I hadn't noticed it until my dad pointed it out. He was walking behind me and commented on it. And then I noticed it in the home movies he took. It was true! I pointed my feet out when I walked. I didn't want to walk like that. And I probably did because I was a ballerina and spent so much of my time in dance with my feet pointed out! I decided from then on, I wasn't going to walk like that any more. I would practice walking across the floor with my feet pointed straight ahead. It didn't hurt me to walk that way so I feel like it wasn't just the way my feet or my legs went. It was just like a bad habit. Took me a couple of years of thinking about it probably a lot more than I should, but I no longer walk like a duck. But you know who DOES walk like a duck? My DAD! Yep. He points his feet out. Which leads me to another point... I think we tend to despise or notice or be critical of things in others that are the exact things we dislike about ourselves. And we often don't even realize we are doing it. >> What makes it an act? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Unbelievable, just unfuc*ingbelievable. You two know that I primarily agree with you on this topic, but... If I thought Alan and Jan were mindless bigots, I'd not be speaking to them; they'd be killfiled. I doubt you two would be arguing with them if you thought they were intentionally hurtful either. So... do you really think you're accomplishing anything by accusing them of being prejudiced? There is such a thing as explaining your own viewpoint, especially when you're speaking to people of good will. Just hurling insults back and forth isn't accomplishing anything here. I haven't been here all that long, but it is quite apparent to me that Alan and Jan are not a.sholes. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:20:24 -0500 in Msg.# <474ba915$0$27021$470ef3ce@news.pa.net>, Jackie Patti <jpatti@ccil.org> wrote: > >> What makes it an act? > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I haven't been here all that long, but it is quite apparent to me that > Alan and Jan are not a.sholes. A few things: I haven't accused anyone of being prejudiced. I haven't hurled insults at anyone. Whether someone is intentionally being hurtful isn't the point. We're having a discussion. It was sparked off of what some of us see as negative labeling. It went on to a statement about 'being okay in the privacy of their own homes' and is now going in a few different directions. If you ask me, this is a discussion. Regardless of her language here specifically, Susan is expressing something in a discussion that is very hard to believe, ... something that seems incredulous, this idea that something is only natural if one is born exhibiting it. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "The public education movement has also been an anti-Christian movement. ... We can change education in America if you put Christian principles in and Christian pedagogy in. In three years, you would totally revolutionize education in America." - Pat Robertson See we all come to disscussions throught our own filters.. When i was told it un-natural for me as a black man to not speak "black" and that i talk "white" to be highly insulting. My gay pals say its insulting that people are "shocked" they are gay because they didnt fit a sterotype. So we all bring somthing to the table.. KROM "DonnaB shallotpeel" <shallotpeel@comcast.net> wrote . something that seems incredulous, this idea that > something is only natural if one is born exhibiting it. In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 05:40:06 -0600 in Msg.# >> "DonnaB shallotpeel" <shallotpeel@comcast.net> wrote . something that seems >> incredulous, this idea that something is only natural if one is born >> exhibiting it. > See we all come to disscussions throught our own filters.. Yes. > When i was told it un-natural for me as a black man to not speak "black" > and that i talk "white" to be highly insulting. I guess that was your reaction. I had a co-worker once tell me they thought I was putting on airs because I [correctly] used neither and nor. I wasn't insulted. I told them it's just the way I talk & had been so since I learned it in elementary school. What was the point in getting riled up? > ... My gay pals say its > insulting that people are "shocked" they are gay because they didnt fit a > sterotype. And, I'm sure that that was their honest reaction. There are other reactions that are possible to the situation. Different people, different perspectives, different sets of experience, ... > So we all bring somthing to the table.. And, I'm sure you know I've posted before, even here in this thread now, about different perspectives and that different does not equal wrong. Personally I think it is a good thing to explore differences. Some reactions here & now suggest it's not, but some suggest it is. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "All of our leaders, Democrat & Republican, have attended church & have made very sure they are seen to do so. But there is a difference between offering this gesture of respect for majority beliefs & manipulating & pandering to the bigotry, prejudice & millennial fantasies of Christian extremists. Though for public consumption the Founding Fathers identified themselves as Christians, they were, at least by today's standards, remarkably honest about their misgivings when it came to theological doctrine & religion in general came very low on the list of their concerns & priorities - always excepting, that is, their determination to keep the new nation free from bondage to its rule." - Brooke Allen, 'Our Godless Constitution', http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050221&s=allen >See we all come to disscussions throught our own filters.. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >KROM that has nothing to do with those who actually fit the stereotype being unnatural or play acting. There are many different varieties of gay people just as there are many different varieties of heterosexual people. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > You two know that I primarily agree with you on this topic, but... > > If I thought Alan and Jan were mindless bigots, I'd not be speaking to > them; they'd be killfiled. I doubt you two would be arguing with them > if you thought they were intentionally hurtful either. > So... do you really think you're accomplishing anything by accusing them > of being prejudiced? Yeah, after pointing out that such attitudes lead to violence and murder and having them not consider for one moment the impact of their words in a new way rather than just rationalizing it. Whether one intends harm or not, once one is put on notice that harm's been done, sensitive folks stop doing the offensive thing and consider that their self perceived intentions don't matter, but the perceptions of those harmed by their words matter a lot. > There is such a thing as explaining your own viewpoint, especially when > you're speaking to people of good will. Just hurling insults back and > forth isn't accomplishing anything here. I felt myself getting hot, so I shut down my PC and walked away last nigth for that reason. > I haven't been here all that long, but it is quite apparent to me that > Alan and Jan are not a.sholes. I'm not saying they are, but on this issue, they're being insensitive and hurtful and don't seem to think that matters as much as defending their right to keep expressing those hurtful thoughts. Jan seems to care, quite often, more for the sport of argument than for anyone else's feelings about her argument, historically. Susan >> So... do you really think you're accomplishing anything by accusing >> them of being prejudiced? > > Yeah, after pointing out that such attitudes lead to violence and murder > and having them not consider for one moment the impact of their words in > a new way rather than just rationalizing it. Yeah, well... I understand the anger, believe me. But thinking Boy George looks weird does not lead to violence; you're conflating two different things. Having the "right" attitudes isn't necessarily all it's cracked up to be; liberal gays can be stupid too, try being an out lesbian who marries a man for an example. >> I haven't been here all that long, but it is quite apparent to me that >> Alan and Jan are not a.sholes. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > care, quite often, more for the sport of argument than for anyone else's > feelings about her argument, historically. It seems to me that in speaking with people of good will it is preferable to explain *why* those comments can be perceived as hurtful rather than flinging hurtful comments back. Just saying. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ >>> So... do you really think you're accomplishing anything by accusing >>> them of being prejudiced? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Yeah, well... I understand the anger, believe me. > But thinking Boy George looks weird does not lead to violence; you're > conflating two different things. I disagree. I believe that such labeling leads to or supports the kinds of social attitudes that lead to such violence. That's why I discussed this off the top. It's what I believe is the outcome of such social labeling for gender variance, or other variance, frankly. Everyone has prejudices, admitted or not. Reconsidering them when they're held up to you is crucial, I believe. > Having the "right" attitudes isn't necessarily all it's cracked up to > be; liberal gays can be stupid too, try being an out lesbian who marries > a man for an example. I completely agree; I haven't noted that liberals are free of gender bias or homophobia, nor do I subscribe to liberalism politically, so that's a non sequitir, IMO. I mean, lots of gay folks are homophobic, too, leading them to be closeted the way Jan would like it, or married to the opposite sex and foot tapping in public men's rooms, for example. So sad to see how many internalize the social negativity. Whether folks like Alan or Jan feel hatred isn't the issue; attitudes like theirs give succor and coverage to haters and those who commit hate crimes. > It seems to me that in speaking with people of good will it is > preferable to explain *why* those comments can be perceived as hurtful > rather than flinging hurtful comments back. > > Just saying. It's where I started off from, til it became clear that it was bouncing right off them, like water off a duck's back. As I said, I felt myself getting overheated and just walked away. It's very frustrating when folks think their intent matters more than their impact on others does. Susan >> But thinking Boy George looks weird does not lead to violence; you're >> conflating two different things. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > this off the top. It's what I believe is the outcome of such social > labeling for gender variance, or other variance, frankly. Yeah, well I just don't see it. It seems an overreaction to me. I think Boy George looked weird and have never had the slightest inclination to bash him or anyone else for their sexual preferences. I don't think badly of him for looking weird. I did think badly of him when someone posted the link about him tying someone up without their consent. That behavior *matters* whereas how he looks doesn't. > Everyone has prejudices, admitted or not. Reconsidering them when > they're held up to you is crucial, I believe. I believe that too. I'm less certain that people are likely to do so when bashed over the head with an opposing viewpoint though. Sorry, but I must bore everyone with another story about my daughter. When she was around 11 or 12, she relayed a story to me in which she got the best of a kid who was hassling her at school by calling him a fag. I blew up at her when she told me this. She got hurt and defensive and asked me did she have to think the same way as me on everything and began crying. That calmed me down a bit. I found an analogy to explain, that if she were genuinely racist and disagreed with me on that, I'd still expect her to be *polite.* She could know if she was being rude to people of other races, but she couldn't necessarily know when she was being rude to gays cause you can't tell who is or isn't. I explained that she could easily be hurtful without realizing it and about the high suicide rate for gay teenagers. A few weeks later, she told me she had noticed that all the teenage girl magazines she read were always talking about boys and it occurred to her how alone and different you must feel if you're a lesbian. Ya know, she didn't "get" it when I yelled at her, she only got hurt and defensive, but when I explained, she "got" it. > I completely agree; I haven't noted that liberals are free of gender > bias or homophobia, nor do I subscribe to liberalism politically, so > that's a non sequitir, IMO. I mean, lots of gay folks are homophobic, > too, leading them to be closeted the way Jan would like it, or married > to the opposite sex and foot tapping in public men's rooms, for example. > So sad to see how many internalize the social negativity. Foot tapping isn't being gay, it's being Republican. ;) > It's very frustrating when folks think their intent matters more than > their impact on others does. Both matter. I think you can give credit for intention while explaining the impact. People of good will shall "get it" and people who are a.sholes aren't worth discussing it with. I'm vaguely nostalgic for arguing about carbs. ;) Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ > Yeah, well I just don't see it. It seems an overreaction to me. We'll have to agree to differ. > I believe that too. I'm less certain that people are likely to do so > when bashed over the head with an opposing viewpoint though. You might consider this point yourself, having made it about 8 times so far. I've already said that I walked away from the discussion to avoid further angry posts. I don't think I require lecturing on this point, certainly not redundancy. [snip} > Foot tapping isn't being gay, it's being Republican. ;) LOL... if only. If you recall, NJ's Dem. governor was also a closted day man married to a woman, with children, while secretly romancing an unqualified gay male employee. The NJ Dem version of foot tapping. Internalized homophobia by gay men has no political affiliation, it's driven by social labeling and attitudes like those that began this discussion, IMO. >> It's very frustrating when folks think their intent matters more than >> their impact on others does. > > Both matter. They do, but some folks give *all* the weight to their stated intent. > I think you can give credit for intention while explaining the impact. > People of good will shall "get it" and people who are a.sholes aren't > worth discussing it with. > > I'm vaguely nostalgic for arguing about carbs. ;) As I said, I disengaged because on topics like homophobia, racism, social labeling and intolerance, I know I have a reflexive disgust and repulsion for those who rationalize their own behavior while negating its impact on others. Susan >> I believe that too. I'm less certain that people are likely to do so >> when bashed over the head with an opposing viewpoint though. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > further angry posts. I don't think I require lecturing on this point, > certainly not redundancy. Point taken. >> Foot tapping isn't being gay, it's being Republican. ;) > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > driven by social labeling and attitudes like those that began this > discussion, IMO. I think... Republicans should have to use different rest rooms so as to not gross anyone out when they discover what they just had in their mouth. ;) I agree anyone can be closeted, and to varying degrees as well. Even if you have chosen to be out, it's hard to figure out exactly when one should say something or not. Even when there's no fear of consequences, there's still just deciding how appropriate it is to correct people who think you're straight. And it's just not something most straight people have to deal with because everyone pretty much presumes everyone else is straight for the most part. Unless a straight person has mannerisms that people interpret as gay, they're not going to have experience with this confusion and "need" to "flaunt" their orientation. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ >Unless a straight person has mannerisms that people >interpret as gay, I've been how by some of the straight I know, I enjoy their favorite gay singers, like Seal and Rick Astley. They argue with me when I tell them what their mistake is. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:00:24 -0500 in Msg.# <474c5b38$0$27042$470ef3ce@news.pa.net>, Jackie Patti <jpatti@ccil.org> wrote: > >> But thinking Boy George looks weird does not lead to violence; you're > >> conflating two different things. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Yeah, well I just don't see it. It seems an overreaction to me. I am really surprised at this. Violence against certain persons doesn't just spring up, full blown. It begins with attitude. Speech fuels attitude. Speech may even do more than just fuel them. And, yes, I am a huge Free Speech advocate. This is not a free speech issue. I simply govern my own speech accordingly & I speak out if I believe I see those kinds of attitudes being put out there in the norm & not being questioned. > I don't think badly of him for looking weird. I did think badly of him > when someone posted the link about him tying someone up without their > consent. That behavior *matters* whereas how he looks doesn't. If indeed it was without consent. > I think you can give credit for intention while explaining the impact. > People of good will shall "get it" and people who are a.sholes aren't > worth discussing it with. If they weren't people worth trying to have dialogue with, I wouldn't be. That's as true now as it was when you said it before, and, even before you said it. However, people of good will *might* get it. They also *might not*. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "'When you have a hammer, all problems start to look like nails.' This is true. But nations without great military power face the opposite danger: when you don't have a hammer, you don't want anything to look like a nail." - Robert Kagan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I personally have a best friend who is a gay man and he is the best. He even does the kiss-kiss thing! Sooo cute! :) A couple friends of mine are black and they do not use ebonics. It used to be big in Oakland, CA, but I am up in northern California and it didn't catch on. I am a white woman, and I like just about everyone. Well, except rapists and child molestors. I will judge them as they suck. :) Cindy "Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in message > I completely agree; I haven't noted that liberals are free of gender bias > or homophobia, nor do I subscribe to liberalism politically, so that's a > non sequitir, IMO. I mean, lots of gay folks are homophobic, too, leading > them to be closeted the way Jan would like it, or married to the opposite > sex and foot tapping in public men's rooms, for example. > So sad to see how many internalize the social negativity. Where did I say or even hint at any of what you just wrote Susan? I quite simply just do not see the need for anyone, gays, young teens, adult heteros, anyone - to over exaggerate in public to be noticed. I have the same feelings about people who talk and swear very loudly in public. It is not my problem if you can't fathom that there are other ways to make people take notice of you. Foot tapping in men's rooms? Get real. That might be the case for a certain type of gay male but it puts the rest of them in a rather nasty light. The majority of my gay male friends have never seen the need to over exaggerate in public either. And they certainly are never short of partners. This is not about hiding in a closet it's about not feeling the need to over exaggerate. I haven't come across the "scared to come out of the closet" thing here in more than 20 years. > Where did I say or even hint at any of what you just wrote Susan? I quite > simply just do not see the need for anyone, gays, young teens, adult [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > need to over exaggerate. I haven't come across the "scared to come out of > the closet" thing here in more than 20 years. So you've learned nothing from several of us pointing out to you that it's not necessarily exaggeration, as you continue to characterize stereotypical vocalization or posturing? Did you think we were lying to you? Priscilla > So you've learned nothing from several of us pointing out to you that > it's not necessarily exaggeration, as you continue to characterize > stereotypical vocalization or posturing? That was my assessment of that post. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That was my assessment of that post. Then you assessed wrong. it happens, especially when one's mind is closed enough that they can't or won't see what is really being said. Read my post to Priscilla to see (once again) my clarification of what I am saying. I am starting to get a feeling that homosexuality is still very much not tolerated in the US. Otherwise I cannot see how a comment about Boy George being weird-looking escalated very rapidly into Australians being homophobic, hate-crime loving people. Even then I can't figure why the phrase caused such a rabid response. You could almost see the frothing during some of your posts Susan. You might want to explore why you keep wanting 2+2 to equal 5, especially if it forces you to be angry enough to walk away from a keyboard. Considering you feel it ok to say MM is ugly, one can only presume that a comment about a person's appearance is ok as long as that person isn't gay??? Because that seems to be the only difference between the two comments. Weird has never been and never will be a negative word unless you want to change the English language to suit yourself, but ugly could never be anything but negative. You know, it is ok to be wrong sometimes. Just saying... > Then you assessed wrong. it happens, especially when one's mind is closed > enough that they can't or won't see what is really being said. Read my post [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Just saying... That's the problem, Jan. For the record, I'm not the only one interpreting your remarks the way I have. I know exactly what you mean and what you intend, and I find it as offensive as others here do. Gay, lesbian, transgendered folks face hostility all over the world, including the U.S. and Australia. At least we KNOW it. Susan wow......... how did we get to calling Jan and Allan as being 'hostile' when all that was said is that Boy George is weird........ Boy George IS weird and why the gay references? is Boy George gay? sigh just a Canuck who doesn't see what ever it is that Susan has been frothing at the mouth over > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Susan > wow......... how did we get to calling Jan and Allan as being 'hostile' when > all that was said is that Boy George is weird........ Boy George IS weird [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > just a Canuck who doesn't see what ever it is that Susan has been frothing > at the mouth over Thank you for such an erudite contribution. Susan In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:15:02 -0700 in Msg.# > wow......... how did we get to calling Jan and Allan as being 'hostile' when > all that was said is that Boy George is weird........ Boy George IS weird [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > just a Canuck who doesn't see what ever it is that Susan has been frothing > at the mouth over 1 - weird looking, not weird 2 - yes, Boy George is gay 3 - see ref to statement about it being okay for people to be gay as long as it is in the privacy of their own home That's the best I can do if you want it in a multi-vitamin type capsule. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "A man is literally what he thinks, his character being the complete sum of his thoughts." - James Allen, 'As a Man Thinketh' How could you possibly tell if a persona gay in public? Thats sorta like saying saying a trek fan in public..oh wait you CAN tell those by thier spock ears..unless they are elves... Spocks and elves are wierd! OK seriously we shouldnt fight..talking is fine but you just know theres a certain few people who are lathered in crisco reading this thread enjoying us arguing with each other..such as annon and his ilk. You all know i lurve ya! KROM "DonnaB shallotpeel" <shallotpeel@comcast.net> wrote > > 3 - see ref to statement about it being okay for people to be gay as long > as > it is in the privacy of their own home >How could you possibly tell if a persona gay in public? when you are walking towards someone and you look at their face and they look at you, you can tell if someone is showing interest, or is just blankly staring at you or is repulsed. Then when you look back and catch them doing the same...it's kind of dance, called cruising and or gaydar. >Thats sorta like saying saying a trek fan in public..oh wait you CAN tell >those by thier spock ears..unless they are elves... >Spocks and elves are wierd! the communicator badges kinda give them away even without the spock ears. >OK seriously we shouldnt fight..talking is fine but you just know theres a >certain few people who are lathered in crisco reading this thread enjoying >us arguing with each other..such as annon and his ilk. I've noticed a couple who are blatantly absent from this thread. >You all know i lurve ya! > >KROM if it doesn't come with a back rub are we really interested? SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > I've noticed a couple who are blatantly absent from this thread. Maybe we need to discuss whether carbs are weird looking. I think mashed potatoes are often very weird looking, remember Close Encounters? And don't tell me pasta isn't weird looking, like *that* is a natural look for a wheat berry. It's just so over-the-top. Also, I think carb-eaters should be more discreet. You ever seen a carnival? People go around eating fried dough and cotton candy in public, in front of *children.* I don't care what someone eats in the privacy of their bedroom, but really, there's just no need for that. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ Jackie Patti wrote in message <474dbb11$0$27008$470ef3ce@news.pa.net>... >Also, I think carb-eaters should be more discreet. You ever seen a >carnival? People go around eating fried dough and cotton candy in >public, in front of *children.* I don't care what someone eats in the >privacy of their bedroom, but really, there's just no need for that. :-) Cheri >> I've noticed a couple who are blatantly absent from this thread. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > in front of *children.* I don't care what someone eats in the privacy of > their bedroom, but really, there's just no need for that. I agree with you there. That's one reason I hate carnivals. People walking around, blatantly eating bad food. >>> I've noticed a couple who are blatantly absent from this thread. >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I agree with you there. That's one reason I hate carnivals. People > walking around, blatantly eating bad food. Then you are badfoodophobic! > Then you are badfoodophobic! Yep! And proud of it. >> Then you are badfoodophobic! > > Yep! And proud of it. See being phobic isn't a bad thing. Homophobia is not a bad thing. It is natural for some people to feel scared of or repulsed by the thought of being with a person of the same sex. What is not good is when someone does something bad to the object they are scared of. How do feel about being sexually involved with a woman? Even if you felt some repulsion and voiced that out loud, you probably wouldn't be labelled a homophobic. If a male voices is repulsion about being with another man, the world comes down on him like a ton of bricks. >>> Then you are badfoodophobic! >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > voices is repulsion about being with another man, the world comes down on > him like a ton of bricks. Um... When did a man voice repulsion about being with another man? In this newsgroup, I mean. I believe it started with the word "weird". >>>> Then you are badfoodophobic! >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Um... When did a man voice repulsion about being with another man? In > this newsgroup, I mean. I believe it started with the word "weird". Must have been a whoosh! then Julie. I was making a play with the badfoodophobic reference, seeing the word homophobic has been thrown around here the past few days. >>>>> Then you are badfoodophobic! >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > badfoodophobic reference, seeing the word homophobic has been thrown > around here the past few days. Whatever. I'm outta here. *poof* > Whatever. I'm outta here. > > *poof* Julie be careful with that word it has a totally different meaning this side of the Pacific, people may think your insulting Jan. (- -) =m=(_)=m= RodS T2 Australia > See being phobic isn't a bad thing. Homophobia is not a bad thing. It is > natural for some people to feel scared of or repulsed by the thought of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > voices is repulsion about being with another man, the world comes down on > him like a ton of bricks. That's not been my experience. I've known a number of straight males who were personally squicked at the idea of sex with males. One friend used to get hit on constantly at every pride march he went to. Another doesn't do the marches, but I've been there when he had guys hit on him and he just politely turns them down. I never heard of anyone calling either homophobic cause they weren't interested in sex with other males. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ In alt.support.diabetes on Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:58:24 +1100 in Msg.# <13ksea6omjqsf45@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote: > ... Homophobia is not a bad thing. Gotta completely disagree here. Bias, hatred, etc. of a person or group simply because they are a member of that group is decidedly a bad thing. > It is > natural for some people to feel scared of or repulsed by the thought of > being with a person of the same sex. Continue to disagree. If it were somehow natural to have this bias everyone would presumably have it, which is not the case. > What is not good is when someone does > something bad to the object they are scared of. Of course that's bad. > How do feel about being > sexually involved with a woman? Fine. > Even if you felt some repulsion and voiced > that out loud, you probably wouldn't be labelled a homophobic. I agree that that in itself is not necessarily expressing homophobia. > If a male > voices is repulsion about being with another man, the world comes down on > him like a ton of bricks. Gotta disagree yet again. It is entirely possible for people to be gay-friendly & not be gay themselves. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel "Leo [McKern] comes from Sydney & Australians are born with one great advantage: they have almost no respect for authority." - John Mortimer, MURDERERS & OTHER FRIENDS I just assume everyone is interested in me sexually..lol. I think id mess up a persons gaydar cause i have no problem finding a guy attractive or a female repulsive..lol. But then i feel all human beings are bi...you put any two humans on a desert island with no hope of rescue..stuffs gonna happen regarless of orientation.no matter how they justify it.. <grin> KROM >>How could you possibly tell if a persona gay in public? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and catch them doing the same...it's kind of dance, called cruising > and or gaydar. >I just assume everyone is interested in me sexually..lol. > I think id mess up a persons gaydar cause i have no problem finding a guy [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > orientation.no matter how they justify it.. > <grin> lol krom wrote in message ... >I just assume everyone is interested in me sexually..lol. >I think id mess up a persons gaydar cause i have no problem finding a guy [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >KROM I absolutely do not believe that all human beings are bi...and I don't believe your desert island theory either, unless you're talking about masturbation. Geez, not that's painting people with a wide brush don't you think? :-) Cheri > krom wrote in message ... >>I just assume everyone is interested in me sexually..lol. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > masturbation. Geez, not that's painting people with a wide brush don't > you think? :-) Was interesting none the less :) You do hear of men having sex in prisons - when there long term - when there was no bi-lean (that they knew of) before hand. >> krom wrote in message ... >>>I just assume everyone is interested in me sexually..lol. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >when there long term - when there was no bi-lean (that they knew of) before >hand. I didn't say it didn't happen, of course it does, but that's a far cry from saying *all humans* are bi, or *any* two humans on an island will get it on. :-) Cheri Why does it bother you if all humans were bi? KROM >>> krom wrote in message ... >>>>I just assume everyone is interested in me sexually..lol. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Cheri > Why does it bother you if all humans were bi? I can't speak for Cheri. For me, it wouldn't bother me at all if all humans were bi, though given I'm married I'd be less able to take advantage of the situation. However, it is somewhat bothersome that someone decides what reality is for everyone else. I'm not saying I haven't on occassion doubted the orientation someone has told me they were, but I'd never presume to tell them they were wrong. If they are, they'll figure it out for themselves sooner or later. The vast majority of the time, it seems to me people know themselves better than I know them; and even in the minority of the time when I think they're mistaken, I'd not presume to speak for them in such a personal fashion. I realize you were stating a general principle you believe to be true about humans in general, but given that it contradicts some folk's understanding of themselves - well, I am on the side of folks getting to decide for themselves what is truth for them. Orientation can't be measured from the outside. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ krom wrote in message ... >Why does it bother you if all humans were bi? > >KROM Why does it bother that they're not? Cheri Never said it did or would. KROM > krom wrote in message ... >>Why does it bother you if all humans were bi? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Cheri krom wrote in message ... >Never said it did or would. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> Cheri Neither did I. You asked the question first. Cheri :-P <plbbrrrrrtttttttttttttttttttt!> KROM "Cheri" <gserviceatinreachdotcom> wrote . You asked the question first. > Cheri LOL :-) Cheri krom wrote in message ... >:-P > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> Cheri You got the right to believe whatever you wish. I just know human beings are sexual and will adapt if the situation calls for it. Thus the whole GWIP thing..aka gay while in prision..lol Only way we could prove it is to put ya on a dessert island with the opposite gender of yor preference for say 50 years..lol. You might "do" them and think of yer preference but i personally think it would likely happen. KROM "Cheri" <gserviceatinreachdotcom> wrote > > I absolutely do not believe that all human beings are bi...and I don't > believe your desert island theory either, unless you're talking about > masturbation. Geez, not that's painting people with a wide brush don't > you think? :-) > > Cheri krom wrote in message ... >You got the right to believe whatever you wish. >I just know human beings are sexual and will adapt if the situation calls [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >KROM Well, yeah, but you didn't say anything about a "dessert island". In that case, I'll have the cherry cheesecake, and I would share that with the male or female stranded on the island with me, but that's it. :-) Cheri > wow......... how did we get to calling Jan and Allan as being 'hostile' when > all that was said is that Boy George is weird........ Boy George IS weird There's been a lot more than that said. > and why the gay references? is Boy George gay? I believe so, and Jan has been talking a lot about gay men and how she disapproves of how they behave. > sigh > > just a Canuck who doesn't see what ever it is that Susan has been frothing > at the mouth over I think that is an unkind and inaccurate way to represent Susan's contributions to this thread. Susan has *never* frothed at the mouth that I've known of in the five or more years I've been reading her posts. She is always clear and direct. For some, that's hard to take. Susan never pussy foots around, rather she comes right out and tells you what she thinks. It's hard not to know where she stands, and she doesn't always stand where the biggest group of people is standing. Sometimes I can find her style a little abrasive, but I'm rarely left wondering what she meant. I take this discussion very personally because someone very close to me identifies as gender queer. Perhaps those who don't know what that means might take the time to research it. More and more people are taking their lives into their hands and daring to stand up and speak the truth about themselves and dress, speak, walk, move their hands, and choose their shoes according to that truth. Human diversity is here and fabulous. Get used to it! Priscilla Priscilla H. Ballou wrote in message ... >means might take the time to research it. More and more people are >taking their lives into their hands and daring to stand up and speak the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Priscilla Yep, and I'll wear white shoes in December if I choose to as well. The rest of the world be damned. :-) Cheri >Yep, and I'll wear white shoes in December if I choose to as well. The >rest of the world be damned. :-) > >Cheri and here I was thinking you were a civilized person...sigh heathens and barbarians all. ;P In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:39:55 -0500 in Msg.# <fc6rk3dlmbspo2gcpg0jes9lciv2fgnot4@4ax.com>, Màck©® <IAM@OneWithTheGoddess.org> wrote: > >Yep, and I'll wear white shoes in December if I choose to as well. The > >rest of the world be damned. :-) > > and here I was thinking you were a civilized person...sigh > > heathens and barbarians all. I'm sure they're winter white!!! <G> SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "You're the rock star of the DNC. You're like Springsteen." - an unidentified "Good Morning America" producer, to Michael Moore after he met with union supporters in Brookline. "He's Not One in Name, but Democrats Sure Like Mike" THE LOS ANGELES TIMES, July 28, 2004 > wow......... how did we get to calling Jan and Allan as being 'hostile' > when all that was said is that Boy George is weird........ Boy George IS > weird > > and why the gay references? is Boy George gay? He was. I presume he still is. The song "Do You Really Want To Hurt Me" was written to one of his bandmates. He also tried for many years to make his sexuality a non-issue. > sigh > > just a Canuck who doesn't see what ever it is that Susan has been frothing > at the mouth over Because the way things are being phrased, is making them come out sounding bad. At least to me. > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > At least we KNOW it. Susan, I am gay ffs, of course I know it. But I have to say, from what I am reading here, gays outside of Oz seem to have a harder time of it overall than here. In my wide circle of gay friends (mostly male) none of them have come up against any problems, coming out, dealing with friends or at work or being targeted for bashing, taunting etc. Obviously there are some that do but they seem to be those who walk in different circles. e.g. gay bars in large cities etc. This is why I am finding it hard to understand your reaction to Alan's weird-looking comment. It just doesn't gel with what I live every day. I guess once again it is down to cultural differences. >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > gel with what I live every day. I guess once again it is down to cultural > differences. I think it goes beyond the word weird. It was how it was used. His androgenous look, if I remember correctly. >>> x-no-archive: yes >>> [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > I think it goes beyond the word weird. It was how it was used. His > androgenous look, if I remember correctly. How is saying he has an androgynous look offensive? I have a female look, that is not offensive. It is a fact of what I look like. My child has a Down syndrome look, it is not offensive to say that. A six year old boy last week told me he didn't like "that" girl (Jasmine) because she is ugly. His mother was horrified and I asked her if I could explain her looks rather than her as he was only 6. Her initial instincts were to come down on him like a ton of bricks for being offensive, I preferred to explain about her to give him a bit of an idea about disabilities. He know knows she is not "normal" but it probably won't make him think her any less "ugly". When my husband first started living with his girlfriend after our separation, her eldest son who was 7 refused to sit down next to her at the dinner table in case he caught her disease. When my kids told me this I was angry, not because of what he said but because neither his mum or my ex sat him down and told him a few things. > > I think it goes beyond the word weird. It was how it was used. His > > androgenous look, if I remember correctly. > > How is saying he has an androgynous look offensive? No, nothing offensive in recognizing androgyny. It was terming it as "looking weird" that was objectionable to some of us. "Weird" has negative connotations in some cultures, much of US culture included. I think that the expansion of the discussion beyond that cultural linguistic connotative difference was what escalated the disagreement, as non-straight-appearing queer people began also to be bashed for their self-expression, as non-traditionally-gendered-appearing people had already been. As I was coming home from work, mulling over this discussion, I realized that it doesn't matter if one's self-expression is exaggeration or inherent and unavoidable. People are different whether they choose to minimize or maximize how apparent their differences are. If you have a problem with how someone expresses themselves in appearance or mannerisms, get over yourself already! It's none of your fracking business. Priscilla If you have a > problem with how someone expresses themselves in appearance or > mannerisms, get over yourself already! It's none of your fracking > business. What she said. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > What she said. Then stop bitching about the way you "think" I am expressing myself. >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Susan ah, only some people have the right to freely express themselves. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >> > I think it goes beyond the word weird. It was how it was used. His >> > androgenous look, if I remember correctly. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > mannerisms, get over yourself already! It's none of your fracking > business. So why are you getting so upset at me expressing MY opinions - because you assumed wrongly that I have homophobia or some other such thing against my own peers???? As I said before, it's a two way street. And it is not so black and white. A drunk was expressing himself by peeing against a wall at McDonald's the other day in broad daylight on McHappy Day, the busiest day of the year. Strangely enough I didn't find his self expression of himself (by not only having his penis entirely exposed he actually chased a couple of small children waving it around at them while peeing) acceptable. This of course is where everyone jumps in and says that there is a caveat here, that scenario is inappropriate. Well hell, who decides what is appropriate or not? Who decides which self expressing act is ok or not? I have no problem with people expressing themselves but I can voice my reasons for not understanding a certain act of self-expression. Did someone come in here and make a small few people Gods when I wasn't looking? Your idea of inappropriate and mine might be different. Who is right? I asked the question about a guy walking into a child's party wearing a thong to see who thought that was appropriate self-expression. Julie said it depends where? How does exposing a goodly amount of hairy balls to little kids ever become appropriate in any circumstance? You see everyone's perception of what is right or wrong or inappropriate is different. And the stupid thing is that I haven't once said that gay guys should not mince in an over exaggerated manner! Not that you or the me toos will take a scrap of notice of what is written here for all to see. The blinkers are on the path has been set. Susan has done nothing but "Jan would have it like this" "Jan would have it like that". How the f.cking hell would Susan know how I would have anything. Last time I looked she didn't have a Psychic Shingle above her door. All presumptions as is her usual MO. I seriously did not believe that you Priscilla had such a bad grasp on comprehension skills though. I am offended by the word queer by the way. Does that word used by you with no ill intent mean I shouldn't feel the impact? FWIW I accept that the way I perceive it is my problem, because I know you mean no ill intent. But how many people get hugely offended over benign things said. Matter nought how benign something is there will always be someone who perceives it differently and gets offended. I deal with it. As to Boy George, I seriously doubt he is in any danger from being bashed and murdered because little AlanS half a world away stated he was weird-looking. This whole thing is like the Harper Valley PTA. A certain few taking the moral high ground. I wonder just how many have had certain thoughts about other people but just never said them out loud? I feel sorry for Susan's brother who now seems to be on the outer because he has obviously started to live like those in his adopted country. Suddenly he is all wrong - no tolerance of the fact he is living in a different culture. Shame on him for self-expressing in a different way now. Everything said here to me can be said right back at the person who said it. > I asked the question about a guy walking into a child's party wearing a > thong to see who thought that was appropriate self-expression. Julie said it > depends where? How does exposing a goodly amount of hairy balls to little > kids ever become appropriate in any circumstance? Nobody sees anything wrong with it on the many nudist beaches along the north coast of the Mediterranean. However, if you wander into one of those beaches wearing clothes you're likely to be considered a pervert and may even be threatened with violence. SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] >> I asked the question about a guy walking into a child's party wearing a >> thong to see who thought that was appropriate self-expression. Julie said it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >of those beaches wearing clothes you're likely to be considered a >pervert and may even be threatened with violence. Having seen the rocks they call sand on those beaches I'd be scared to sit down on them with padded swimmers on, let alone a bare bum. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts >>> I asked the question about a guy walking into a child's party wearing a >>> thong to see who thought that was appropriate self-expression. Julie said it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>of those beaches wearing clothes you're likely to be considered a >>pervert and may even be threatened with violence. > Having seen the rocks they call sand on those beaches I'd be > scared to sit down on them with padded swimmers on, let > alone a bare bum. There's plenty of nice sandy ones too, but you probably have to go further off the beaten track to find them. In heavily commercialised areas unprofitable minorities like nudists tend to get pushed out to the uncomfortable edges. SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] > There's plenty of nice sandy ones too, but you probably have to go > further off the beaten track to find them. In heavily commercialised > areas unprofitable minorities like nudists tend to get pushed out to > the uncomfortable edges. I haven't been there in a few years, but there used to be a gorgeous nude beach at Sandy Hook in NJ - and as it's name indicates, it was very sandy. My daughter and I used to go there often when she was young. IME, there were lots of little kids and lots of adults of various ages, but rarely teenagers. Typically, when my daughter hit puberty, she didn't want to go anymore. It was located in the midst of a bunch of public beaches with signs warning you if you approached from other directions that you were coming to the clothing-optional beach. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ >Nobody sees anything wrong with it on the many nudist beaches along >the north coast of the Mediterranean. However, if you wander into one >of those beaches wearing clothes you're likely to be considered a >pervert and may even be threatened with violence. That's OK, because if an adult wanders into my yard naked, they will definitely be threatened with violence, or at the very least an icy cold hosing down. Cheri In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:06:22 +1100 in Msg.# <13kpmp6guvgktaa@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote: > ... A drunk was expressing himself by peeing against a wall at > McDonald's the other day in broad daylight on McHappy Day, the busiest day [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > scenario is inappropriate. Well hell, who decides what is appropriate or > not? Well, for one thing, public urination is not self-expression. It's not how you look or walk, it's what you do. And, from the first of this discussion, it's been said (I said it right off the bat) that it's one thing to judge someone on their actions but another on how they look, etc. To me, this is perfectly reasonable & something that is widely accepted. Now, there are cultures, I am told, where it is common for males, young & old, to urinate against public walls. But, we're not talking about a culture like that. We're talking about a culture that does not find public urination acceptable. > Who decides which self expressing act is ok or not? The society or culture decides. Public urination, for example, is probably against the law in most places in our cultures, even if it's covered by some umbrella about 'keeping the peace' or whatever. If you're drunk & doing so, it can definitely get you arrested! > I have no problem > with people expressing themselves but I can voice my reasons for not > understanding a certain act of self-expression. No one has disputed anyone's right to speak. In fact, 'we' have specifically affirmed the right of 'you' as well as 'us' to do so. > ... The blinkers are on the path has been set. Now, this has been said by persons on both 'sides' about persons on the other 'side'. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive & usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us & is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair." - H. L. Mencken > Well, for one thing, public urination is not self-expression. It's not how > you look or walk, it's what you do. And, from the first of this > discussion, > it's been said (I said it right off the bat) that it's one thing to judge > someone on their actions but another on how they look, etc. To me, this is > perfectly reasonable & something that is widely accepted. Not only that, but in pretty much all of the places I've lived, it's illegal! It was very common for males to do this in one of the military housing areas where I once lived. I guess the reason being, the housing was such that you had to go up a flight of stairs to get to the toilet. The buildings had a small fenced patio and most were designed so that there was only a few feet between the buildings. So the men and boys would go between the buildings or behind the fence to pee, rather than go indoors. Since it hardly ever rained there, you can imagine the eventual stench that created! The problem got so bad that the housing department was on the constant lookout for violators and they began prosecuting them instantly. > Now, there are cultures, I am told, where it is common for males, young & > old, to urinate against public walls. But, we're not talking about a > culture > like that. We're talking about a culture that does not find public > urination > acceptable. True. Now I've heard that NYC cabbies pee out the side of thier cars. Not sure if this is true or not. >> Who decides which self expressing act is ok or not? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > so, > it can definitely get you arrested! Right. <snip> It's none of your fracking >business. > >Priscilla someone has been watching battlestar galactica. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > It's none of your fracking > >business. > > > >Priscilla > > someone has been watching battlestar galactica. You bet yer sweet fracking a.s! Priscilla, who would frack Starbuck in a heartbeat In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:21:59 -0500 in Msg.# <vze23t8n-9ADD28.16215928112007@individual.net>, "Priscilla H. Ballou" <vze23t8n@verizon.net> wrote: > > It's none of your fracking > > >business. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Priscilla, who would frack Starbuck in a heartbeat Did you enjoy RAZOR? SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "When all think alike, no one is thinking very much." - Walter Lippmann > In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:21:59 -0500 in Msg.# > <vze23t8n-9ADD28.16215928112007@individual.net>, "Priscilla H. Ballou" [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Did you enjoy RAZOR? Yeah, it was nice to get back into that universe. It didn't have quite the oomph that I was expecting, but I was glad to be seeing new BG again. How bout you? Priscilla In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:36:02 -0500 in Msg.# <vze23t8n-E229D6.16360228112007@individual.net>, "Priscilla H. Ballou" <vze23t8n@verizon.net> wrote: > > Did you enjoy RAZOR? > > Yeah, it was nice to get back into that universe. It didn't have quite > the oomph that I was expecting, but I was glad to be seeing new BG again. > > How bout you? Yeah, I thought it suffered a bit from being over-hyped and from the time lapse since we last had some new BSG to watch!! But, yes, I really enjoyed it & thought it had some interesting plot elements, plus consistent characterization. I particularly enjoyed the ways they hooked what we'd already seen with backstory & previously unknown front story! Fit together like dovetail in drawers. Have you been watching Katee on BIONIC WOMAN? She really should be the lead there. Even if they'd had to hold the show off a year until Katee was free. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "Well, now, that came out a lot more lesbian than it sounded in my head." - Anya, BtVS, "Tough Love" > In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:36:02 -0500 in Msg.# > <vze23t8n-E229D6.16360228112007@individual.net>, "Priscilla H. Ballou" [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Have you been watching Katee on BIONIC WOMAN? She really should be the lead > there. Even if they'd had to hold the show off a year until Katee was free. No, I didn't know to follow it at first and then I just got busy with other stuff. It was funny, though... last summer at Camp Camp I'd worn my "I'd frack Starbuck" t-shirt one day. Most people who read it needed an explanation, but a couple were clearly BG fans, because they chuckled or told me I have good taste. In October I went to the reunion barbecue, and someone greeted me with "So, she's on Bionic Woman now." No "hi, how are ya?" Just leap in with no contextual clues. Took us a bit of negotiation to put the pieces together. I'd forgotten I'd worn that t-shirt in August. She is SO hot. *whew* Priscilla In alt.support.diabetes on Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:44:19 -0500 in Msg.# <vze23t8n-CEAF95.12441929112007@individual.net>, "Priscilla H. Ballou" <vze23t8n@verizon.net> wrote: > No, I didn't know to follow it at first and then I just got busy with > other stuff. It was funny, though... last summer at Camp Camp I'd worn [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > bit of negotiation to put the pieces together. I'd forgotten I'd worn > that t-shirt in August. She is SO hot. *whew* You had Camp Camp reunions already?!! Gotta love it. Katee has this excellent attitude about all of her women fans, too! SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "In Real Life, things happen one after another. In fiction, things happen BECAUSE of one another." - Elizabeth Engstrom > As I was coming home from work, mulling over this discussion, I realized > that it doesn't matter if one's self-expression is exaggeration or > inherent and unavoidable. People are different whether they choose to > minimize or maximize how apparent their differences are. I agree with this. Similarly, I don't see why it matters if orientation is inborn or not; people get to make their own choices. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ > > As I was coming home from work, mulling over this discussion, I realized > > that it doesn't matter if one's self-expression is exaggeration or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Similarly, I don't see why it matters if orientation is inborn or not; > people get to make their own choices. Amen. Priscilla >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >have. I know exactly what you mean and what you intend, and I find it >as offensive as others here do. If you know exactly what she means and intends and you are still interpreting what she is saying to mean something offensive, the problem does not originate from or with Jan. >Gay, lesbian, transgendered folks face hostility all over the world, >including the U.S. and Australia. > >At least we KNOW it. > >Susan But not from Jan personally, nor in every place all over the world. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > >Gay, lesbian, transgendered folks face hostility all over the world, > >including the U.S. and Australia. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > But not from Jan personally, nor in every place all over the world. Yes, from Jan, here. She is hostile to gay men's self expression, their "exaggerated" mannerisms. Priscilla >> >Gay, lesbian, transgendered folks face hostility all over the world, >> >including the U.S. and Australia. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Yes, from Jan, here. She is hostile to gay men's self expression, their > "exaggerated" mannerisms. Show me one hostile word from me about that specifically. > >> >Gay, lesbian, transgendered folks face hostility all over the world, > >> >including the U.S. and Australia. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Show me one hostile word from me about that specifically. You characterize non-straight-appearing gay men's mannerisms as exaggeration and will not modify your stance based on the voices of gay men that some of us are passing on to you that their mannerisms are NOT exaggeration. Priscilla >> >> >Gay, lesbian, transgendered folks face hostility all over the world, >> >> >including the U.S. and Australia. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > men that some of us are passing on to you that their mannerisms are NOT > exaggeration. Terrrorism is hostile. > You characterize non-straight-appearing gay men's mannerisms as > exaggeration and will not modify your stance based on the voices of gay > men that some of us are passing on to you that their mannerisms are NOT > exaggeration. And if it *were* exaggeration, it would be the same. I don't care for Jan to post that she's modified her stance. I think all I'd hoped for was some evidence of reflection. Susan >> > Yes, from Jan, here. She is hostile to gay men's self expression, their >> > "exaggerated" mannerisms. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Priscilla no she was giving you real life examples from people she personally knows, people you do not know. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >> >Gay, lesbian, transgendered folks face hostility all over the world, >> >including the U.S. and Australia. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Priscilla No she is not a threat to me. Stop accusing a lesbian of being my enemy. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > No she is not a threat to me. > > Stop accusing a lesbian of being my enemy. It's not as if being gay is a credential. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > It's not as if being gay is a credential. But you certainly get a better insight of the people you are talking about not actually living with. >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > But you certainly get a better insight of the people you are talking about > not actually living with. AND actually living with, not NOT. > AND actually living with, not NOT. If you can be gay and not understand why some gay men have those gestures and mannerisms, then clearly it hasn't helped you to understand anything better. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and mannerisms, then clearly it hasn't helped you to understand anything > better. ?? Of the near 40 people in my 'circle" 5 are women, the rest men. None of the men have the mannerisms we are speaking of. Just because your experiences are different doesn't make mine less credible. As I said we seem to be worlds apart not 1/2 a world. I am sorry if life experiences here are different. I can't change that for you. > ?? Of the near 40 people in my 'circle" 5 are women, the rest men. None of > the men have the mannerisms we are speaking of. Just because your > experiences are different doesn't make mine less credible. You're too busy trying to score points to even reflect for a second that this thread isn't about anyone's credibility or being wrong or right. It was meant to elicit thinking, not your typical incessant, score keeping, self congratulatory rants. The fact that you choose to hang only with gay men who aren't flamboyant doesn't address the fact that such mannerisms are a natural part of many gay men's lives, just as many lesbians naturally present as very butch. Just because you're not one of those doesn't mean it's not natural for others to do so. That's the whole crux of it. Susan > You're too busy trying to score points to even reflect for a second that > this thread isn't about anyone's credibility or being wrong or right. It [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > doesn't address the fact that such mannerisms are a natural part of many > gay men's lives, The crux of the matter was and is, I don't understand OVER EXAGGERATION of mannerisms. Not ALL such mannerisms. Stop reading things that aren't there. Google over exaggeration in my posts, you will find plenty of instances. Oh so now we have the truth of it.. So mexicans must be lazy..jews cheap and blacks eat watermellon..because its "natural" for them. See doesnt feel so good when sombody twist your words to hammer a point home and again i say you owe alan a apology. KROM >the fact that such mannerisms are a natural part of many gay men's lives, >just as many lesbians naturally present as very butch. Just because you're [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Susan > Oh so now we have the truth of it.. > So mexicans must be lazy..jews cheap and blacks eat watermellon..because > its "natural" for them. A lot of what Susan is saying is starting to sound like stereotypal stuff that I am beginning to wonder just how much experience she has with gay people in numbers. > A lot of what Susan is saying is starting to sound like stereotypal stuff > that I am beginning to wonder just how much experience she has with gay > people in numbers. Only when you lie and distort. I've argued only against judgment and labeling. Never that any group has members who all behave the same way. Or that my country is free of antagonism and discrimination just because I personally don't see it or experience it. You think there's a fight to be won here and you're consistent in distortion, illogic to do so. I don't, and I never am intentionally dishonest nor do I use the straw man fallacy, ever, that you so rely on. Susan > Oh so now we have the truth of it.. > So mexicans must be lazy..jews cheap and blacks eat watermellon..because its > "natural" for them. > > See doesnt feel so good when sombody twist your words to hammer a point home > and again i say you owe alan a apology. You're being ridiculous. I've only argued for non judgment and social labeling, not that all people of a certain group behave a certain way. I have no idea why you're so intent of fanning flames, but I'm not rising to the bait. Susan >The fact that you choose to hang only with gay men who aren't flamboyant >Susan now you are showing just how presumptuous and arrogant you truly can be. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . But do they because they are gay or because they choose to use them? If you say it is because they are gay and therfore MUST use them or be false.. YOU are the homophobe! KROM > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Susan In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:44:52 -0600 in Msg.# > But do they because they are gay or because they choose to use them? > If you say it is because they are gay and therfore MUST use them or be > false.. YOU are the homophobe! I really don't understand why you keep going down this same alley. It's a false question, false statement, false set-up, false analogy, etc. The issue is not whether people are whomever they are, predestined by some one thing that you're thinking of versus people deciding as they leave the house in the morning for work which self they will be. Yes, people are the sum total of their parts. That includes their genetic make-up, their upbringing, their socio-economic (or other) class, their sexuality, their life struggles, etc., etc. on & on including many many factors. And, yes, to some degree, especially if they allow it, people continue to change & grow. What some of us are talking about is people being allowed to be themselves - whatever that may be for them. I fully believe it is of crucial importance for everyone to have full civil rights. People in the US now do not. People in some countries have it much worse than here. People in some, very few, places have it better, at least legally. If it helps to bring this home to you, I think it is equally as important for you to be able to be a black male who doesn't speak 'black' and not be hassled & accused of pretending to be someone you are not as for a 56 year old white lesbian to have 7 earrings, short spiky purple hair, and have long since given up make-up & skirts/dresses. You're being you - even though some of your peers find you outside the norm. I'm being me even though, ... yadda yadda ditto. I mean do you think that you are putting on a false persona, exaggerated diction, etc.? What is 'different' is all about perspective, point of view. But, there's no reason being 'different' should be wrong. Does this help at all? You keep seeming ready to pounce, but to be doing so arguing against your own reality! SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel "Lead, follow, or get out of the way." - made popular when it appeared in a photo of Ted Turner's desk in FORTUNE magazine, 1987 My peers can/might/do find me wierd and i got zero problem with it. Again the origional fight was over one poster saying a pop star was wierd..and the hell that was unleashed on him and chest pounding and hair pulling and gnashing of teeth and wails of dispair over him saying so. All my posts were basically saying he should be beat up by the thought police for having a opinion..and then we were discussing if gay people were "naturally" predisposed to behave a certain way which i belive to be false. Susan was railing agianst those she perceived as homophobic but made some statements i felt were as homophobic without her doing it on purpose..so i pointed out that she attacked alan for a percieved slight when she too was capable of making simple statement one could twist into somthing bad as well and cut the guy some slack..she doesnt agree.. <shrug> KROM "DonnaB shallotpeel" <shallotpeel@comcast.net> wrote You're being you - even > though some of your peers find you outside the norm. I'm being me even > though, ... yadda yadda ditto. > Susan was railing agianst those she perceived as homophobic but made some > statements i felt were as homophobic without her doing it on purpose..so i > pointed out that she attacked alan for a percieved slight when she too was > capable of making simple statement one could twist into somthing bad as well > and cut the guy some slack..she doesnt agree.. You got your play by play wrong, again. I don't recall Alan commenting on homosexuality in the post I responded to, actually, do you? Susan <<It was the thread that never ends..it just goes on and on my friends......>> So to not be acused of "fanning the flames" i am done with the boy george/wierd/stereotypes talk..i posted that two days ago my my wake sleep time and am well done with it. You gonna see it yer way... me mine..neither is gonna budge so why bother? I aint mad at ya! :-) KROM > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Susan ><<It was the thread that never ends..it just goes on and on my >friends......>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >KROM Krom, if you ever feel like fanning the flames, we'll get you a loin cloth and one of those huge feather fans they use in movies like Cleopatra where the servants are fanning the Queen, and we'll be happy to give you a job. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . Woohoo watch me work it..lol KROM > Krom, if you ever feel like fanning the flames, we'll get you a loin > cloth and one of those huge feather fans they use in movies like > Cleopatra where the servants are fanning the Queen, and we'll be happy > to give you a job. >Krom, if you ever feel like fanning the flames, we'll get you a loin >cloth and one of those huge feather fans they use in movies like >Cleopatra where the servants are fanning the Queen, and we'll be happy >to give you a job. Good grief - I haven't recovered from the squirrel image yet! :P Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 100ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25 >>Krom, if you ever feel like fanning the flames, we'll get you a loin >>cloth and one of those huge feather fans they use in movies like [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >D&E, 100ug thyroxine >Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25 what squirrel? those are only good in the crock pot or breaded and deep fried on a stick... SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >>>Krom, if you ever feel like fanning the flames, we'll get you a loin >>>cloth and one of those huge feather fans they use in movies like [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >what squirrel? those are only good in the crock pot or breaded and >deep fried on a stick... Yah, we went down that route on another thread. Krom has a squirrel friend, making him not interested in recipes. It's bringing him little presents, it clearly wants to move the relationship up a notch :D Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 100ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25 "Nicky" <ukc802466929@btconnect.com> a écrit ... >>>>Krom, if you ever feel like fanning the flames, we'll get you a loin >>>>cloth and one of those huge feather fans they use in movies like [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > friend, making him not interested in recipes. It's bringing him little > presents, it clearly wants to move the relationship up a notch :D I'd have thought that would be a dead-ender relationship, but who knows what goes on in 'the colonies' ... ? >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Susan if you, not being gay, can claim that you know so much about why gay men act the way they do, when actual gay men disagree with you, it hasn't helped you much.... SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . M???? <IAM@onewiththegoddess.org> wrote: >>> AND actually living with, not NOT. >> >>If you can be gay and not understand why some gay men have those >>gestures and mannerisms, then clearly it hasn't helped you to understand >>anything better. > if you, not being gay, can claim that you know so much about why gay > men act the way they do, when actual gay men disagree with you, it > hasn't helped you much.... If people knew why they behaved as they do we wouldn't have had to invent psychologists. SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] "Chris Malcolm" <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> a écrit ... > M???? <IAM@onewiththegoddess.org> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > If people knew why they behaved as they do we wouldn't have had to > invent psychologists. And if it weren't for lawyers, we wouldn't need lawyers ... > But you certainly get a better insight of the people you are talking about > not actually living with. What makes you think I didn't or don't now live with or close to gay folks? Susan In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:46:18 -0500 in Msg.# > It's not as if being gay is a credential. Well, darn. <G> What's the point of getting those membership cards then?!! SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "Who needs the big picture? Not me. Hints are fine." - Joan Girardi, to God, JOAN OF ARCADIA > In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:46:18 -0500 in Msg.# > > > It's not as if being gay is a credential. > > Well, darn. <G> What's the point of getting those membership cards then?!! You didn't go and redeem yours for a toaster oven? Priscilla > Well, darn. <G> What's the point of getting those membership cards then?!! Toaster ovens. Susan > >> >Gay, lesbian, transgendered folks face hostility all over the world, > >> >including the U.S. and Australia. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Stop accusing a lesbian of being my enemy. She should get a free pass on heterosexist behavior because she's queer herself? I don't think so. Internalized homophobia can be especially nasty. Priscilla >> >> >Gay, lesbian, transgendered folks face hostility all over the world, >> >> >including the U.S. and Australia. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > herself? I don't think so. Internalized homophobia can be especially > nasty. I guess it could if one felt that way. >She should get a free pass on heterosexist behavior because she's queer >herself? I don't think so. Internalized homophobia can be especially >nasty. > >Priscilla seeing something in someone that isn't actually there is often a form of what? SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > > x-no-archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Just saying... Do you realize this is totally unresponsive to what Susan and I were talking about? Priscilla >> > x-no-archive: yes >> > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >Priscilla then maybe you should ask yourself why you need her to respond in a specific way that you approve of. The response to Jan is way over the top. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > then maybe you should ask yourself why you need her to respond in a > specific way that you approve of. > > The response to Jan is way over the top. You might have a point if it was just one or two of us upset about it. But it is several of us and nothing seems to be changing. They still fail to see why we are so upset! >> then maybe you should ask yourself why you need her to respond in a >> specific way that you approve of. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >it is several of us and nothing seems to be changing. They still fail to >see why we are so upset! Democracy, and a majority, have nothing to do with validity. I know why you are upset, I simply don't agree that you should be, nor that you should be attempting to tell us how to think and speak. You are also failing to see why we are upset. We are upset about something totally different to you. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts >>> then maybe you should ask yourself why you need her to respond in a >>> specific way that you approve of. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > You are also failing to see why we are upset. We are upset > about something totally different to you. I don't want to tell you how to think or speak. >> then maybe you should ask yourself why you need her to respond in a >> specific way that you approve of. >> >> The response to Jan is way over the top. > You might have a point if it was just one or two of us upset about it. But > it is several of us and nothing seems to be changing. They still fail to > see why we are so upset! You're upset because you're Americans reacting to her words as though she were an American using them. This is in fact an international newsgroup, even though it's dominated by Americans. SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] > You're upset because you're Americans reacting to her words as though > she were an American using them. This is in fact an international > newsgroup, even though it's dominated by Americans. No, Chris, that's not it. I brought it up to create an awareness of how/why such labeling can be hurtful. Thinking about such concerns and responding in a thoughtful manner is something I've found folks of all nationalities capable of. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Thinking about such concerns and responding in a thoughtful manner is > something I've found folks of all nationalities capable of. Agreed. >>> then maybe you should ask yourself why you need her to respond in a >>> specific way that you approve of. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >she were an American using them. This is in fact an international >newsgroup, even though it's dominated by Americans. as an American I am not upset with what she wrote. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >>>> then maybe you should ask yourself why you need her to respond in a >>>> specific way that you approve of. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > as an American I am not upset with what she wrote. Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, word meanings are in the ear of the perceiver. No matter what a person's intent some people will always take words and phrases in a way that was never intended. One of my daughters is like that, you can actually see the hackles rise and teeth bare. >Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, word meanings are in the ear >of the perceiver. No matter what a person's intent some people will always >take words and phrases in a way that was never intended. One of my >daughters is like that, you can actually see the hackles rise and teeth >bare. I know, I work with some that are like that. You can't sit around worrying about them to the point you have to change who and what you are to suit them. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >> then maybe you should ask yourself why you need her to respond in a >> specific way that you approve of. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >it is several of us and nothing seems to be changing. They still fail to >see why we are so upset! Then explain to me why I should be upset about, when I am not. Especially since I have been the victim of gay bashing on more than one occasion, ranging from verbal insults to physical attacks. Explaign to me why I should be upset about it. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > Then explain to me why I should be upset about, when I am not. > Especially since I have been the victim of gay bashing on more than > one occasion, ranging from verbal insults to physical attacks. > Explaign to me why I should be upset about it. Why should your caring or not affect how others feel? Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Susan can you answer the same question? SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:57:16 +1100 in Msg.# <13kp4lkionbfl6f@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote: > ... Read my post > to Priscilla to see (once again) my clarification of what I am saying. What post of yours to her? I have yet to see clarification from you where I could tell what it was that you were describing. You referred to one TV show, that I don't watch or didn't watch, whichever, but Mack said that what's being illustrated there is not what you called 'mincing' yesterday & what you call an over exaggeration today. Frankly, that's one thing that has been SO totally puzzling to me - that there's been so little clarification when there was ample opportunity for it. I find it utterly perplexing. > I am > starting to get a feeling that homosexuality is still very much not > tolerated in the US. Homosexuality has problems with 'toleration' all over. > Otherwise I cannot see how a comment about Boy George > being weird-looking escalated very rapidly into Australians being > homophobic, hate-crime loving people. Well, I never said anything remotely like that, but I can tell you exactly how it escalated. The 'out of the blue' statement of it 'being okay for people to be gay as long as they keep it in the privacy of their own bedroom'. It was more than easy to agree to disagree about Boy George specifically. But, suddenly, as they say, the plot got thicker, ... or is that the gravy. <G> > ... Weird has never been and never will be a negative > word unless you want to change the English language to suit yourself, but > ugly could never be anything but negative. You don't have to change the English language one bit. You only have to understand about denotation & connotation. > You know, it is ok to be wrong sometimes. > > Just saying... So far, Susan's said that about you & Alan, Alan's said that about Susan, you've said that about Susan ... although perhaps you & Alan meant that to be about anyone who happened to disagree with you. It's not exactly possible to tell. The thing is, ... who is and who isn't right is so very NOT what it's about. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "A legend is an old man with a cane known for what he used to do. I'm still doing it." - Miles Davis > The thing is, ... who is and who isn't right is so very NOT what it's about. For Jan, it is. Susan > In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:57:16 +1100 in Msg.# > <13kp4lkionbfl6f@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > & > what you call an over exaggeration today. The post a few minutes ago. As mincing is defined as exaggerated I didn't think I need to clarify it further until it was obvious people were were thinking I meant effeminacy - not by a long shot. > Frankly, that's one thing that has been SO totally puzzling to me - that > there's been so little clarification when there was ample opportunity for > it. I find it utterly perplexing. I have repeated myself about what I mean ad nauseum. >> I am >> starting to get a feeling that homosexuality is still very much not [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > specifically. But, suddenly, as they say, the plot got thicker, ... or is > that the gravy. <G> I keep things in the privacy of my bedroom also, what's the problem? I can see Alan's comment has been twisted. Here is his actual quote: "couldn't care less what other people do in the privacy of their bedroom, as long as I'm not in the bed with them." He does not mention gays. And since when is it homophobic to not want to sleep with someone of the same sex? I know lesbians who find the thought of sleeping with a man repugnant. What does that make them? Heterophobic? Things go both ways ya know. I know the sort of repugnance they mean, like thinking about sleeping with a brother or sister. It seems people are allowed to be offended by one thing but don't accord others the same privelege. >> ... Weird has never been and never will be a negative >> word unless you want to change the English language to suit yourself, but [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > possible > to tell. The message was to Susan. >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Just saying... Think of it this way... Wouldn't it be sooo much easier to get married and have a couple of kids, a dog, a white picket fence, or whatever else is the "norm"? When you are perceived as being normal, people do not tend to bother you very much. You just nicely blend in. If you are single past say...age 30...people bug you. Why aren't you married? If you are married and in your 30's with no child yet, people bug you about that! I know a couple who seems not to be able to have children. They want children very badly and Drs. can't find a reason why they are unable to conceive, or so they say. The poor woman gets reduced to tears now whenever someone asks about the lack of children. These people do not want to feel like they have to justify their situation or their choices to others. I'm sure gay people do not either. I know gay people who have gotten married to an opposite sex person just for appearance sake. One person is in the military. One is not allowed to be gay in our military. Sometimes it is easier to appear to be "normal" than have to keep justifying yourself to others. And then one is forced to live to some extent in secrecy. Two of my friends were in such situations. One moved out of the area so she didn't have to face the people she used to know as a gay person. The other took his own life because he so badly wanted to be what he perceived as "normal", but it just wasn't him. He just couldn't be himself. Couldn't accept himself. I find that very sad. >Think of it this way... > >Wouldn't it be sooo much easier to get married and have a couple of kids, a >dog, a white picket fence, or whatever else is the "norm"? When you are >perceived as being normal, people do not tend to bother you very much. You >just nicely blend in. why would a lesbian want to think of it that way? SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > why would a lesbian want to think of it that way? For the same reason many gay men hide out in straight marriages. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > >> why would a lesbian want to think of it that way? > > For the same reason many gay men hide out in straight marriages. I don't know any, that seems to be very much a thing in the past. Your society may be different. > I don't know any, that seems to be very much a thing in the past. Your > society may be different. That should have come with a spew alert, literally! LOL Susan > x-no-archive: yes > >> I don't know any, that seems to be very much a thing in the past. Your >> society may be different. > > That should have come with a spew alert, literally! For what reason? We live in two different countries. Is it still a problem where you live? If so, very sad. > For what reason? We live in two different countries. Is it still a problem > where you live? If so, very sad. Yeah, I'm sure all that anti gay discrimination and violence hasn't driven any gay folks into the closet at all. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Yeah, I'm sure all that anti gay discrimination and violence hasn't driven > any gay folks into the closet at all. Demographics. Some gay folk hang in gay bars in dreadfully seedy areas with the morons of the world who congregate around said area. Places like Kings Cross in Sydney, a den for prostitutes, drug addicts and low lifes (some, not all). It is never an excuse to bash or otherwise harm a gay person because of their sexual orientation (or any other reason) but these places are known for that kind of thing so should be avoided. I am sure if you walked through a nasty neighbourhood your chances of an incident are higher than in your own neighbourhood? If you were here and heard the local news you would know that the average gay person who doesn't frequent these areas is in no more danger of being harmed than the rest of the population. that's the bad thing about reading statistics after googling. Never a proper or full picture. If as you say, a gay can be killed for making a pass where you live then once again I am sorry to hear that. >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > If as you say, a gay can be killed for making a pass where you live then > once again I am sorry to hear that. I am sure they can be killed anywhere. You can't tell me that every single person in your country loves gay people and would be fine with them making a pass at them. I don't buy that for an instant! >>> x-no-archive: yes >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > single person in your country loves gay people and would be fine with them > making a pass at them. I don't buy that for an instant! A homophobic would for the most part say something derogatory, F off poofter. Not everyone is a killer. Have you never had an unwanted pass made at you? Did you feel the urge to kill? >>>> x-no-archive: yes >>>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > poofter. Not everyone is a killer. Have you never had an unwanted pass > made at you? Did you feel the urge to kill? I never said everyone was a killer. And while I'm no expert I'd also venture to guess that many killers are in fact mentally ill. Of course I have had unwanted passes made at me and so far I haven't killed anyone. People snap for any number of reasons. Which is why I find it very hard to believe that nobody is ever killed in your country for their sexuality. >Demographics. Some gay folk hang in gay bars in dreadfully seedy areas with >the morons of the world who congregate around said area. Places like Kings >Cross in Sydney, a den for prostitutes, drug addicts and low lifes (some, >not all). In America, because of the rampant and blatant homophobia in the public and in the local and state governments, areas like those are sometimes the only places you can keep a gay bar operating. Not to mention the fact that the desire to hide influences the choice of where to build bars. > It is never an excuse to bash or otherwise harm a gay person >because of their sexual orientation (or any other reason) but these places >are known for that kind of thing so should be avoided. Agreed on both points. >I am sure if you >walked through a nasty neighbourhood your chances of an incident are higher >than in your own neighbourhood? I was jumped 1 foot from the door of my home. When I walk in the neighborhood I am never without a means to defend myself. Welcome to America. >If you were here and heard the local news >you would know that the average gay person who doesn't frequent these areas [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >If as you say, a gay can be killed for making a pass where you live then >once again I am sorry to hear that. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > For what reason? We live in two different countries. Is it still a problem > where you live? If so, very sad. Oh come on! Now I am finding you VERY hard to believe. I have a friend in Australia. I guess I will ask him if things are really as hunky dory over there as you say. I highly doubt that. >>> x-no-archive: yes >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > in Australia. I guess I will ask him if things are really as hunky dory > over there as you say. I highly doubt that. Ok, you ask your one Australian friend how many gays he knows that are married to women so no one will know he is gay and get back to me. Also ask him if he is associated with a gay community and spends regular time with them. In return I will ask one of my American friends who aren't in the military to tell me exactly how life is in the military over there. Fair enough? The reason you no doubt find it hard to believe that things can happen differently in another country is because you are judging the rest of the world on the only yard-stick you know, your own country's yard-stick. It would be like me highly doubting that certain countries perform barbaric acts on women including female circumcision. And I don't doubt. Just because there are a number of homophobic idiots who get pleasure out of treating homosexuals badly and doing them harm, doesn't mean the rest of the population hasn't progressed beyond how they were 30 years ago. Times change. Attitudes change, tolerances change. 20 years ago if a member of the military or police force etc were spotted on TV taking part in our Gay & Lesbian Mardi Gras they were sacked. We've come a long way baby and all the sneering and disbelief from thousands of k's away will not change that fact. You are bordering on racism Julie, Susan has already crossed that line. >>>> x-no-archive: yes >>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > perform barbaric acts on women including female circumcision. And I don't > doubt. If that is the case, then explain the Australian film called The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. Granted, the film is a few years old, but I find it hard to believe that things could have changed that much that quickly. As for female cicumcision, it is done in this very country. It's not common, but people who come here from other countries still sometimes do that which is familiar to them, like it or not. > Just because there are a number of homophobic idiots who get pleasure out > of treating homosexuals badly and doing them harm, doesn't mean the rest [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > not change that fact. You are bordering on racism Julie, Susan has already > crossed that line. *I'm* bordering on racism? I fail to see how. And I fail to see how Susan has crossed that line either. Julie Bove wrote in message ... >As for female cicumcision, it is done in this very country. It's not >common, but people who come here from other countries still sometimes do >that which is familiar to them, like it or not. No, I don't like it, and it's a criminal act in this country, and well it should be. Cheri > Julie Bove wrote in message ... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > No, I don't like it, and it's a criminal act in this country, and well > it should be. True. But it's being done as are arranged marriages. Still not common, but it happens. >>>>> x-no-archive: yes >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > years old, but I find it hard to believe that things could have changed > that much that quickly. Um, what about the movie? I am at a loss to see the relevance to the conversation. >>>>>> x-no-archive: yes >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Um, what about the movie? I am at a loss to see the relevance to the > conversation. They were Australian drag queens and not very well accepted in some areas they traveled in. >>>>>>> x-no-archive: yes >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > They were Australian drag queens and not very well accepted in some areas > they traveled in. The fictitious characters? Splurt. >>>>>> x-no-archive: yes >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >Um, what about the movie? I am at a loss to see the relevance to the >conversation. The fact that a film like that could be a monster hit in Australia suggests that we don't dislike even quite weird homosexuals. When the Terrence Stamp character stomped on the lout's nuts and announced "Now he's f.cked" a great cheer went up in the theatre I was in, much as used to happen following the "That's not a knife; THIS is a knife" line in Crocodile Dundee. SignaturePeter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com I am starting to think they are just more comfortable knowing the gays are in thier "box" and are fighting to keep them there as any coment of there not being a box has upset them so.. KROM "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote We've come a long way baby and all the > sneering and disbelief from thousands of k's away will not change that > fact. You are bordering on racism Julie, Susan has already crossed that > line. >I am starting to think they are just more comfortable knowing the gays are >in thier "box" and are fighting to keep them there as any coment of there >not being a box has upset them so.. I had a similar feeling. I was particularly disturbed hearing about the dedicated glbt proms. That in my opinion is a step backwards, along the lines of apartheid. People who are different creating ways to be away from the general population. That in my opinion could create a bigger rift wherever it is happening. If a group are finding the need to hide away again because of fear of harm or ridicule then the strides forward have been in vain. Gay Pride parades on the other hand allow glbt's to bring their flavour out into the public letting them know they are there and that they won't be closeted again. Right i wouldnt join the black panthers now because theres no longer a need..nor do i march...and i would hope some day soon gay people wouldnt feel the need to either..meaning theres nothing to march against. Now i would join a group if it had a possitive purpose..if i saw a need. That said if people wanna march cause they are irish or gay or mommies day or whatever i dont care..i just dont see a need ..but i certainly dont get mad if they wanna. We have rondos day here a black pride parade and ive never been to it once..again i dont see the need to. KROM >>I am starting to think they are just more comfortable knowing the gays are >>in thier "box" and are fighting to keep them there as any coment of there [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > their flavour out into the public letting them know they are there and > that they won't be closeted again. > Right i wouldnt join the black panthers now because theres no longer a > need..nor do i march...and i would hope some day soon gay people wouldnt [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > We have rondos day here a black pride parade and ive never been to it > once..again i dont see the need to. I'm not sure I totally agree with you, Krom. It was certainly more important back in the 60's, when I rode with the Chosen Few out of South Central LA. At that time, I worked with SNCC and had the FBI's Wanted poster for Eldridge Cleaver on the back of my cutoff. The struggle for equal treatment and equal opportunity for people of all colors, ethnicities, genders and orientations is still a worldwide problem. SignatureNick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families! I've known US vets who served as far back as the Spanish American War. They are all my heroes! Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~ Oh you missunderstood me... the debate was if trying to be seperate was still necessary..of course the movement then was very important..but now i would march for general rights rather then just black rights is the point i mean. KROM >> Right i wouldnt join the black panthers now because theres no longer a >> need..nor do i march...and i would hope some day soon gay people wouldnt [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > colors, ethnicities, genders and orientations is still a worldwide > problem. > Oh you missunderstood me... the debate was if trying to be seperate was > still necessary..of course the movement then was very important..but now [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > > I'm not sure I totally agree with you, Krom. [] OK. I'm good with that. SignatureNick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families! I've known US vets who served as far back as the Spanish American War. They are all my heroes! Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~ > I had a similar feeling. I was particularly disturbed hearing about the > dedicated glbt proms. That in my opinion is a step backwards, along the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > flavour out into the public letting them know they are there and that they > won't be closeted again. I don't think so. I don't know of any schools here where glbt kids are safe from bullying and harassment. Retreating to safe space seems very reasonable to me; no one can be on the defensive *all* the time. Would it be preferable if they were safe in their schools? Of course. But since they aren't, having places where they can be comfortable seems quite reasonable to me. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ > The reason you no doubt find it hard to believe that things can > happen differently in another country is because you are judging the rest of > the world on the only yard-stick you know, your own country's yard-stick. Believe it or not, being American doesn't *necessarily* mean someone is US-centric and unaware of the rest of the world. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I don't know any, that seems to be very much a thing in the past. Your > society may be different. It's not a thing of the past here and just because you "think" it's a thing of the past there, doesn't make it so. I'd be willing to bet you don't know what goes on behind closed doors, in most people's lives just as I don't know either. People who are going to live a closeted life are not going to go around announcing things to everyone else. They only confide in a select few, if any. Here there are plenty of people who might not want to make it known they are gay. I am thinking of some government officials and teachers (especially of young children). I'm sure there are others. If person is openly gay and runs for office, there is going to be a percentage of people who will not vote for him or her just for that reason. And sadly, there are some who think homosexuality and pedophilia are one and the same and will not want such a person teaching their children. One of my best teachers was gay. He worked out very well in elementary school. But then our school closed and he went on to teach at the Jr. High. That did not work out so well for him at all. While he was not open about his sexuality, he displayed the very mannerisms and way of talk you dislike. Nobody made fun of him in elementary school, but they sure did in Jr. High. He was tormented all the time he was in class and he wound up having a nervous breakdown. Thankfully after a few years, he resumed teaching at another elementary school. > One of my best teachers was gay. He worked out very well in elementary > school. But then our school closed and he went on to teach at the Jr. High. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Thankfully after a few years, he resumed teaching at another elementary > school. I have a friend with a similar issue, though she's not gay. She's just stunningly beautiful. She just *can't* teach anything but elementary school without being harassed. As it is, the third graders all have crushes on her. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ > x-no-archive: yes > >> why would a lesbian want to think of it that way? > > For the same reason many gay men hide out in straight marriages. I know of one military man who was very much into the military. He married a woman because doubts about his sexuality began to crop up. > >Think of it this way... > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > why would a lesbian want to think of it that way? Because in some places it would be so much easier than having to combat homophobia and heterosexism. Priscilla "Priscilla H. Ballou" <vze23t8n@verizon.net> wrote in message news:vze23t8n- >> why would a lesbian want to think of it that way? > > Because in some places it would be so much easier than having to combat > homophobia and heterosexism. Has it happened to you? If so, I am very sorry to hear that. I have never had to combat anything like, nor have my friends. Not saying it doesn't happen but it certainly hasn't happened to anyone I know. Its very nice to lead the life one chooses without harassment, ridicule and fear. >>Think of it this way... >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > why would a lesbian want to think of it that way? Because in some ways and in some cases it is easier. I used to work with a lesbian who married a gay guy. She was openly gay at work. At the time our personnel manager was very much into gay people (I don't know why) and we had quite a lot of them working there. She said it was just easier in some situations (she didn't explain why and I didn't ask) to be perceived as a married woman. It also helped in some financial respects because one could add the other to the insurance policy and things like that. Both were friends and both led separate lives, but had the marriage on paper and shared a house. >>>Think of it this way... >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >friends and both led separate lives, but had the marriage on paper and >shared a house. only part of what you describe is about the reasons original presented. The rest is a clear example of getting around America's socially and legally accepted tradition. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> a écrit ... >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Just saying... On the nail, Jan. Some people though are rude and will never step down, even when they realise they are wrong. Hint: you can have the support of several, many, even the majority and still be wrong. >> Where did I say or even hint at any of what you just wrote Susan? I quite >> simply just do not see the need for anyone, gays, young teens, adult [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > stereotypical vocalization or posturing? Did you think we were lying to > you? Why do you think I need to learn something? Some gay males do this, one has told me why, and yes it is an "act" in his opinion. One person obviously can't speak for the rest but he admits to over exaggerating things for a reason. I am not a male gay so I took his word for it. You are not a male gay so anything you know about it would have to be second hand also, agreed? Once again, we are not talking about a natural way of talking and walking that some gay males have but an over exaggeration of it. I am really sure you know what I mean when I talk about over exaggeration. It seems that some here are trying to argue the former and ignore the latter which I am talking about and clarified very early in the discussions. > >> Where did I say or even hint at any of what you just wrote Susan? I quite > >> simply just do not see the need for anyone, gays, young teens, adult [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > here are trying to argue the former and ignore the latter which I am talking > about and clarified very early in the discussions. Read carefully and slowly now... for some is is not any exaggeration. This is really true. NOT an exaggeration. Some people are really different from you and from your expectations. Really. Did you follow that? Should I repeat it? Just in case... Read carefully and slowly now... for some is is not any exaggeration. This is really true. NOT an exaggeration. Some people are really different from you and from your expectations. Really. Priscilla > > "Priscilla H. Ballou" <vze23t8n@verizon.net> wrote in message > > > [ . . . ] > Read carefully and slowly now... for some is is not any exaggeration. > This is really true. NOT an exaggeration. Some people are really > different from you and from your expectations. Really. <sigh> Back in the 1960's, I worked in a shop with an absolute flaming, swishy, queen, Bobby. He wasn't exaggerating, that was just the way he was. In the 90's, I worked with another gay guy, Chuck. He was subdued in his behavior, but not hiding in the closet. He frequently came to my wife's restaurant, after working out at the gym. If I was there, I'd sit at his table and we'd talk. He knew me from work and felt quite comfortable talking to me about his trips overseas, sometimes in detail. The behavior of most of the gays and lesbians of my acquaintance, over the last 50 years, has been nearer the subdued end of the spectrum. I've never been judgemental of their livestyle and am honored by their trust. This thread seems to have drifted a bit. Obsession seems to fuel a lot of flame (no pun intended) wars. Oh, well. This is one way to get to know each other. ;-/ SignatureNick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families! I've known US vets who served as far back as the Spanish American War. They are all my heroes! Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~ In alt.support.diabetes on 27 Nov 2007 22:39:36 GMT in Msg.# <20071127173938.897$Fe@newsreader.com>, Nick Cramer <n_cramerSPAM@pacbell.net> wrote: > <sigh> Back in the 1960's, I worked in a shop with an absolute flaming, > swishy, queen, Bobby. He wasn't exaggerating, that was just the way he [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > years, has been nearer the subdued end of the spectrum. I've never been > judgemental of their livestyle and am honored by their trust. I would just have to echo what Mack said & that is that gay folk come in as many different varieties as everyone else does. > This thread seems to have drifted a bit. Obsession seems to fuel a lot of > flame (no pun intended) wars. Oh, well. This is one way to get to know each > other. ;-/ Obsession? Now, you want to talk about colognes?!!! <G> Seriously, I don't know where you get to obsession from here - not that I have to know, because I don't. What kind of a shop? SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education & social ties & needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment & hope of reward after death." - Albert Einstein > <n_cramerSPAM@pacbell.net> wrote: > [ . . . ] > I would just have to echo what Mack said & that is that gay folk come in > as many different varieties as everyone else does. I totally concur! > > This thread seems to have drifted a bit. Obsession seems to fuel a lot > > of flame (no pun intended) wars. Oh, well. This is one way to get to > > know each other. ;-/ > > Obsession? Now, you want to talk about colognes?!!! <G> Kiss me and I'll tell you. ;-D > What kind of a shop? Electronics, mostly tape recorder repair and service, audio console design and construction. SignatureNick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families! I've known US vets who served as far back as the Spanish American War. They are all my heroes! Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~ <snip> > Obsession? Now, you want to talk about colognes?!!! <G> Seriously, I don't > know where you get to obsession from here - not that I have to know, > because > I don't. <snip> *Breathes deeply* Mmmm... My favorite! Especially the men's version. >> This thread seems to have drifted a bit. Obsession seems to fuel a lot of >> flame (no pun intended) wars. Oh, well. This is one way to get to know each [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >know where you get to obsession from here - not that I have to know, because >I don't. Polo Double Black is far superior to Obsession. >What kind of a shop? The Little Shop of Horrors. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >> >> Where did I say or even hint at any of what you just wrote Susan? I quite >> >> simply just do not see the need for anyone, gays, young teens, adult [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > >Priscilla read carefully what you either misunderstood or failed to read in her quote above: >> Once again, we are not talking about a natural way of talking and walking >> that some gay males have but an over exaggeration of it. she already gets the point you repeated twice. you're just choosing not to see it. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >> >> Where did I say or even hint at any of what you just wrote Susan? I >> >> quite [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > This is really true. NOT an exaggeration. Some people are really > different from you and from your expectations. Really. I can tell you right now she wouldn't like to hear ME talk. I tend to be very theatrical and at times comical when I speak. I've always been this way. Daughter is the same. Guess she wouldn't like her either. >>> >> Where did I say or even hint at any of what you just wrote Susan? I >>> >> quite [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > very theatrical and at times comical when I speak. I've always been this > way. Daughter is the same. Guess she wouldn't like her either. I have a whole family of dramatic people, what's your point? They have been like that all their lives. >I can tell you right now she wouldn't like to hear ME talk. I tend to be >very theatrical and at times comical when I speak. I've always been this >way. Daughter is the same. Guess she wouldn't like her either. so long as you make it personal you will be in conflict. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >Why do you think I need to learn something? Some gay males do this, one has >told me why, and yes it is an "act" in his opinion. One person obviously [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >here are trying to argue the former and ignore the latter which I am talking >about and clarified very early in the discussions. so you don't like camp. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:06:26 -0500 in Msg.# <rm8pk3ttfnq8dfbedoifoomip90rekuap6@4ax.com>, Màck©® <IAM@OneWithTheGoddess.org> wrote: > >Why do you think I need to learn something? Some gay males do this, one has > >told me why, and yes it is an "act" in his opinion. One person obviously [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > so you don't like camp. Wait, is that it? Is it camp that she doesn't like? If so, what's the non-gay male, non-chorus boys & girls, non-Cher ... non-Rufus Wainwright equivalent for other folk? SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel "Your brain is like your stomach in the sense that if it's empty, you're willing to put anything in there to fill it up." - DILBERT, Scott Adams >In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:06:26 -0500 in Msg.# ><rm8pk3ttfnq8dfbedoifoomip90rekuap6@4ax.com>, Màck©® [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >non-gay male, non-chorus boys & girls, non-Cher ... non-Rufus Wainwright >equivalent for other folk? gays are not the only ones with their version of camp. and for some people the dislike of things like that also includes rude displays of public affection, hence the phrase "get a room". You notice she never said anything about two guys or gals walking down the street holding hands while window shopping and just minding their own business? In Jan's case it probably includes things like overly loud and obnoxious people who disrupt a quiet dinning room in a restaurant, or obnoxious teens sucking one another's faces down their throats and feeling each other up in a school or in a park or in a mall. Or like the group of teens I ran into one day at a food court in a mall who were slapping each other, cussing at each very load, knocking their chairs over, all in front of several families with very young children. Why was it I was the only to speak up and tell them to behave and then call security on them when they didn't and after they were thrown out the other people thanked me for it? Come on some social standards are totally acceptable and have nothing to with prejudice of any kind. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:53:33 -0500 in Msg.# <8l6rk3hfj3nlu0jv06ushgqam61gkv97no@4ax.com>, Màck©® <IAM@OneWithTheGoddess.org> wrote: > >In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:06:26 -0500 in Msg.# > ><rm8pk3ttfnq8dfbedoifoomip90rekuap6@4ax.com>, Màck©® [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > said anything about two guys or gals walking down the street holding > hands while window shopping and just minding their own business? No, she didn't say, at all. I specifically brought up certain aspects to see if anyone wanted to clarify, via example, what they meant, and didn't mean. No one was inclined to do so - which is their choice. But, it means they leave people either not knowing or guessing what they 'probably' mean. > In Jan's case it probably includes things like overly loud and > obnoxious people who disrupt a quiet dinning room in a restaurant, or [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Come on some social standards are totally acceptable and have nothing > to with prejudice of any kind. And, every single example you're listing is behavior, not self expression! But, yes, of course, there are. Your first listed example, however, probably isn't 'actionable' in most cases, since most restauranteurs aren't going to antagonize a customer just for being overly exuberant. Who will or won't speak up or take action, as a volunteer or citizen or whatever, is another thing altogether. And, I say that as someone who has stopped children from running in the aisles in Wal-Mart, given them effective dirty looks, told them they need to pay attention to what their mother just said to them, as well as things said & looks given in movies, etc. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "You want to have consistent & uniform muscle development across all of your muscles? It can't be done. It's just a fact of life. You just have to accept inconsistent muscle development as an unalterable condition of weight training." - Response to Arthur Jones, who solved the "unsolvable" problem by inventing Nautilus > In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:53:33 -0500 in Msg.# > <8l6rk3hfj3nlu0jv06ushgqam61gkv97no@4ax.com>, Màck©® [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > them they need to pay attention to what their mother just said to them, as > well as things said & looks given in movies, etc. I once wore a pair of red shoes to work. We did have a dress code at the time and it didn't say anything about red shoes. Just that we could not wear athletic shoes. The personnel manager told me I needed to wear shoes in black or brown because those were the proper color for shoes! I told her if the customers started complaining about my shoes, I would gladly change them. Since then, I wore numerous colors and styles of shoes and nobody said a thing. I can understand dress codes to an extent. Sometimes I can't see the reasons for certain things. Like men not being able to wear beards. That seems to be a common one and it was on the dress code where I worked. I could understand it if the person were working with food, but that wasn't the case there. In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:16:30 GMT in Msg.# <iFm3j.23105$rg1.20814@trndny04>, "Julie Bove" <juliebove@verizon.net> wrote: > I once wore a pair of red shoes to work. We did have a dress code at the > time and it didn't say anything about red shoes. Just that we could not [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > could understand it if the person were working with food, but that wasn't > the case there. Red shoes, that's a new one on me. LOL There are certain plants where, even if your work only takes you out onto the plant floor to pick up data, etc. there's protective breathing gear that must be worn that cannot be worn with beards. There are always reasons where some things make sense & where they don't seem to! Even though I've never been personally affected by it I know of people who have really been given a tough time over their 'ethnic' look, ... twists, corn rows, braids, etc. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "Isn't Hollywood a dump - in the human sense of the word. A hideous town, pointed up by the insulting gardens of its rich, full of the human spirit at a new low of debasement." - F. Scott Fitzgerald 1896-1940, letter, (July 29, 1940), in Andrew Turnbull ed., The Letters of F. Scott Fitzgerald (1963). >>> Where did I say or even hint at any of what you just wrote Susan? I >>> quite [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > ignore the latter which I am talking about and clarified very early in the > discussions. So one has told you why he does what he does. So what? That's him. People do what they do because that's who they are! Is there a natural way of talking? If so then explain why YOU talk differently than *I* do over here in the US. And why my friends in TX talk differently than you or I? Who is the natural one? >>>> Where did I say or even hint at any of what you just wrote Susan? I >>>> quite [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > So one has told you why he does what he does. So what? That's him. And I also said this: "One person obviously can't speak for the rest but he admits to over exaggerating things for a reason. I am not a male gay so I took his word for it." People > do what they do because that's who they are! Or to be noticed.. > Is there a natural way of talking? If so then explain why YOU talk > differently than *I* do over here in the US. And why my friends in TX > talk differently than you or I? Who is the natural one? I think you know the difference between accents and dressing up in a mini skirt like your ex colleague and prancing around outside in front of men for attention? You even said your employer pulled her up for it? You think he found it not quite normal also? My 16 yr old was asked by his manager at work (McDonald's) the other day to remove his tongue ring as it wasn't an impression they wanted to convey to their customers. Should he have jumped up and down about his right to self-expression? Have there been huge rallies in the US about gays not being allowed in your military? If not why not? Does the extent of your (generic your) concern about the gay rights you think I am against only go as far as an argument in a small newsgroup? I see many things argued to the death in here but never where it counts most. > I think you know the difference between accents and dressing up in a mini > skirt like your ex colleague and prancing around outside in front of men > for attention? You even said your employer pulled her up for it? You think > he found it not quite normal also? She. My boss was a she. And it was not that she found it normal or not quite normal. We had a strict dress code for work and this woman was violating it. >My 16 yr old was asked by his manager at work (McDonald's) the other day to >remove his tongue ring as it wasn't an impression they wanted to convey to >their customers. Should he have jumped up and down about his right to >self-expression? Probably. Unless he signed papers spelling out the dress code and that tongue rings were forbidden. We had similar incidents in which men were told not to wear earrings to work. There was nothing in the dress codes against wearing earrings for either sex, so those men who disputed this were (in my opinion) in the right. Had they fired the men for wearing earrings, those men would have had a case. What ended up happening, sadly, was the men were harrassed and harrassed by the employer every day until they finally switched to wearing tiny, almost flesh colored earrings that weren't very noticeable. During this time period, we had a gay man they wanted to get rid of. That was easy enough for them to do. They simply extracted $50 from his till several days in a row then wrote him up three times for being short. It's very easy to fire someone if you really want to. And very easy to fake a reason. >Have there been huge rallies in the US about gays not being allowed in >your military? If not why not? I don't really know. I don't follow this stuff. And being that my husband *is* in the military, I try to stay out of this stuff so as not to make waves for him. > Does the extent of your (generic your) concern about the gay rights you > think I am against only go as far as an argument in a small newsgroup? I > see many things argued to the death in here but never where it counts > most. I do not go out and march in gay rights parades or anything like that. I don't personally feel that they do much good. But I could be wrong. I try to treat everyone as my equal, unless they give me some reason to consider them not to be. Like hurling verbal abuse at me or some such thing. I am not generally a fighter for any sort of cause. Just not in my nature to do so. >> Where did I say or even hint at any of what you just wrote Susan? I quite >> simply just do not see the need for anyone, gays, young teens, adult [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > stereotypical vocalization or posturing? Did you think we were lying to > you? Yeah. It's getting old. I feel like she is saying, "Don't be yourself! Be the way *I* want you to be." >>> Where did I say or even hint at any of what you just wrote Susan? I >>> quite [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Yeah. It's getting old. I feel like she is saying, "Don't be yourself! > Be the way *I* want you to be." If I felt that way I would have said I hate the way x people do y, why can't they be like, m,n and o. Repeatedly I have said I "don't understand" the need for why x,y and z do certain things to gain attention Vastly different. But not hard to comprehend from everything I have written, over and over and over.. x-no-archive; yes > If I felt that way I would have said I hate the way x people do y, why can't > they be like, m,n and o. That does not at all logically follow. Repeatedly I have said I "don't understand" the > need for why x,y and z do certain things to gain attention Vastly different. > But not hard to comprehend from everything I have written, over and over and > over.. Someone call the Thread Coroner. This has gone on at length to go nowhere. Susan > x-no-archive; yes > >> If I felt that way I would have said I hate the way x people do y, why >> can't they be like, m,n and o. > > That does not at all logically follow. So what is the logical? Julie's comment? : "Don't be yourself! Be the way *I* want you to be." If I felt people should be as I want them to be I would have said so. But I guess half your fun would have been taken away not being able to presume. In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:11:40 +1100 in Msg.# <13kpchlo6hdop62@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote: > If I felt that way I would have said I hate the way x people do y, why can't > they be like, m,n and o. Repeatedly I have said I "don't understand" the > need for why x,y and z do certain things to gain attention Vastly different. > But not hard to comprehend from everything I have written, over and over and > over.. You said it was something you didn't find necessary, yes, more than once, as if any of us gets to say what is necessary for someone else. But, then, you go on to generalize that people who behave a certain way, with examples missing, do so to gain attention, when it is certainly not the case for most people. You make no room for those people, any of them, to simply be being themselves. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "You need someone listening to you for it to be an actual conversation." - T-shirt slogan Gosh, sometimes you just have to love random taglines being generated. >>>> Where did I say or even hint at any of what you just wrote Susan? I >>>> quite [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > different. But not hard to comprehend from everything I have written, over > and over and over.. It is hard for me to comprehend because it seems to be going nowhere. >Yeah. It's getting old. I feel like she is saying, "Don't be yourself! Be >the way *I* want you to be." isn't that what everyone is expecting of her? We are this way, how dare you be different and honest enough to say so. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > isn't that what everyone is expecting of her? We are this way, how > dare you be different and honest enough to say so. Mack, I know how you love to stand outside a fire with your fan while doing play by play, but you've ocmpletely distorted and misinterpreted this discussion. What's being asked is for someone to consider how some descriptions and words can cause actual unintended harm, if they were not aware of it in the first place. Period. No one has been told nor requested to be dishonest or to conform. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > No one has been told nor requested to be dishonest or to conform. We have asked Jan to learn from information we're presenting to her. Priscilla >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > We have asked Jan to learn from information we're presenting to her. That's very presumptuous and reeks of "you" are right and I am wrong. That is not the case. We are different. I never said I wanted to change anyone's way. Voicing that I do not understand the need is not trying to change someone nor is it wrong. I therefore have nothing to learn, nothing to apologise. In alt.support.diabetes on Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:18:08 +1100 in Msg.# <13krmo391nroiaa@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote: > > We have asked Jan to learn from information we're presenting to her. > > That's very presumptuous and reeks of "you" are right and I am wrong. Well, I guess that is one way to look at it, but it's a way that one chooses & not necessarily what's being said or what was meant. 'Learning from information we are presenting to her' to me indicates a different view. When there's an insistence that it's about someone being right & someone being wrong, the point where things are different but we learn about each other's differences is just blown right by. > ... Voicing that I do not understand the need is not trying to change > someone nor is it wrong. What I saw you say again & again was not about understanding. Instead it was about objecting to people behaving a certain way, that you simply saw no need, no necessity, for it, etc. > ... I therefore have nothing to learn, nothing to apologise. If you have nothing to learn, you are a truly rare individual. I can only say that I would not find that to be true of anyone here, going by what is posted. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "What kind of warped human being would find that funny?" - Marge Simpson > In alt.support.diabetes on Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:18:08 +1100 in Msg.# > <13krmo391nroiaa@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > about objecting to people behaving a certain way, that you simply saw no > need, no necessity, for it, etc. Saying I don't see a necessity for it is not the the same as objecting to it. If I object to something there won't be any demarcation doubts. I am not afraid to voice my objections in any situation. I have no objections to people being how they want tobe, I just don't find it necessary. >> ... I therefore have nothing to learn, nothing to apologise. > > If you have nothing to learn, you are a truly rare individual. I can only > say that I would not find that to be true of anyone here, going by what is > posted. I have nothing to learn about this issue, how did you interpret that to be nothing to be learned ever? The word "therefore" after my statement should have been a clue. What I have learned though in this discussion (not the issue) is that people are allowed to have differing opinions but some opinions over rule. "All people are equals, but some are more equal than others". > What I have learned though in this discussion (not the issue) is that people > are allowed to have differing opinions but some opinions over rule. "All > people are equals, but some are more equal than others". The fact that you don't understand belies your belief that being gay and living with gay folks imparts greater understanding. For the record, I have never demanded that you change your mind or say you're wrong. I've really only asked that you *consider* something and think. Clearly too high an expectation. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Clearly too high an expectation. I considered your point of view, came to the conclusion that it didn't coincide with how I saw the use over exaggerating mannerisms and still hold to my original views. Did you consider my view? If so what conclusion did you come to? What did you "learn"? > I considered your point of view, came to the conclusion that it didn't > coincide with how I saw the use over exaggerating mannerisms and still hold > to my original views. Did you consider my view? If so what conclusion did > you come to? What did you "learn"? I certainly DID consider your view. I consider it completely self centered and egotistical and believe it demonstrates your complete lack of understanding of human development and behavior. That's how you know I was paying attention. I never asked you to learn something and lord knows I don't expect you to. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > understanding of human development and behavior. That's how you know I > was paying attention. See, there ya go. How about you consider that just maybe, somewhere out there outside of Susanville, is a whole different world of gay people just getting on with life - probably all self-centred and egotistical and absolutely clueless to the fact that there is some stereotypical behaviour out there they should be following. You are very sad Susan, there are plenty of people out there who really do not have over-exaggerated mannerisms that you seem to think would be the natural expression of male guys. And no, they don't stifle those mannerisms, they are self-expressing but not in the way you seem to think is normal for gay males. They are not hiding, or not coming out of the closet. they don't have hang-ups and are marvellously comfortable with themselves and those around them. You really should come and meet them, see first hand that there is something outside your square. Lol, I find this funny: "Everyone displays in a way to attract the attention they want, Jan. It's not up to you to decide who's authentic and who isn't. You're just expressing the attitude of a bigot." So... you are allowed to say MM is ugly, attention-seeking and theatrical and that you won't finish reading one of Alan's posts becasue you think he is tossing a tantrum BUT I can't comment about over-exaggerated mannerisms in male gays? Is the double standard becasue my comment was about gays? I know you will come up with what you feel is a perfectly good reason for saying what you say. Who are you to decide whether MM is authentic or not with his theatrics or Alan with his "tantrum"? I feel the need to inform you how hurtful it can be to label people. Poor theatrical and attention-seeking MM! > See, there ya go. How about you consider that just maybe, somewhere out > there outside of Susanville, is a whole different world of gay people just [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > should come and meet them, see first hand that there is something outside > your square. Susan never said people should follow some stereotypical behavior! Nor did she say that all gay males should have over-exaggerated mannerisms. But you seem to imply they are wrong if they do. Why can't people just be as they are? <snip> >> See, there ya go. How about you consider that just maybe, somewhere out >> there outside of Susanville, is a whole different world of gay people [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Susan never said people should follow some stereotypical behavior! Nor > did she say that all gay males should have over-exaggerated mannerisms. Susan is telling me I don't have an understanding of human development and behaviour because I have a large number of friends who don't over exaggerate mannerisms and aren't with-holding some alleged natural mannerism. Read up. >>> See, there ya go. How about you consider that just maybe, somewhere out >>> there outside of Susanville, is a whole different world of gay people [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > exaggerate mannerisms and aren't with-holding some alleged natural > mannerism. Read up. I did read that. And I agree with Susan. >>>> See, there ya go. How about you consider that just maybe, somewhere out >>>> there outside of Susanville, is a whole different world of gay people [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > I did read that. And I agree with Susan. What, you agree that you know more about my 35 or so male gay friends that I spend a lot of time with than I do? They will be mildly amused about that. They'll probably camp it up a bit in your honour ;) >> I did read that. And I agree with Susan. > > What, you agree that you know more about my 35 or so male gay friends that > I spend a lot of time with than I do? They will be mildly amused about > that. They'll probably camp it up a bit in your honour ;) I don't know anything about your gay male friends and frankly I don't CARE! My objection (and I believe Susan's as well) was your saying that some people don't need to act the way they do. We are saying it is natural for them to be this way. What you don't seem to see is we're all different. And just because someone is different doesn't make them wrong! >>> I did read that. And I agree with Susan. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > some people don't need to act the way they do. We are saying it is > natural for them to be this way. I said I don't inderstand the need to over-exaggerate not that people don't need to. So you have a lot of first hand experience with gays? > What you don't seem to see is we're all different. And just because > someone is different doesn't make them wrong! Who said you were wrong? >>Susan is telling me I don't have an understanding of human development and >>behaviour because I have a large number of friends who don't over >>exaggerate mannerisms and aren't with-holding some alleged natural >>mannerism. Read up. > > I did read that. And I agree with Susan. Except that wasn't my reason for saying it; whether the lie is intentional or not, it's a lie. Susan My point is ..isnt it homophobic or at least ignorent to assume that "thats how gays are" and therefore must be blindly accepted..and to question it a sin? Ozgirl and i are basically saying "is it neccesary in this day and age to stand apart when we can simply all be people?" I think alan meant that when he said he doesnt care what people do in thier own beds that the only way one could tell a person was gay is if you saw them having sex because theres no difference bewtween a gay or a straight person. All reasonable thoughts for disccusion yet they have been burned at the stake as fascist and homphobes. I find it as hateful to judge people of differing views as it is to judge them on skin color etc. I dont judge person for how they look..but i do resevrve the right to find it attractive or not. The fact this has brought such rightious indignation is amusing yet sad. KROM > Susan never said people should follow some stereotypical behavior! Nor > did she say that all gay males should have over-exaggerated mannerisms. > But you seem to imply they are wrong if they do. Why can't people just be > as they are? > > <snip> In alt.support.diabetes on Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:44:56 +1100 in Msg.# <13krrqr7m3n7d12@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote: > >> ... Voicing that I do not understand the need is not trying to change > >> someone nor is it wrong. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > afraid to voice my objections in any situation. I have no objections to > people being how they want tobe, I just don't find it necessary. Well, at least you're not claiming here that it means you were saying that you didn't understand it. As to the other, I can only say that, obviously, I don't agree with you about what it means to say that a behavior or way of being isn't a necessary one. But, we know how we each feel about it because we've already covered that turf. > >> ... I therefore have nothing to learn, nothing to apologise. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > nothing to be learned ever? The word "therefore" after my statement should > have been a clue. I did so by misunderstanding what you said (and meant). That's what happens in dialogue. If you have nothing to learn about this issue, ... I'm honestly not sure why you entered it & stayed in it as long as you did. But, hey, we're different. That's the way it goes. > What I have learned though in this discussion (not the issue) is that people > are allowed to have differing opinions but some opinions over rule. "All > people are equals, but some are more equal than others". I can only say that I'm here in the same discussion with you & I do not find that to be true. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "We write to taste life twice." - Anaïs Nin > In alt.support.diabetes on Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:44:56 +1100 in Msg.# > <13krrqr7m3n7d12@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > different. > That's the way it goes. Because my point of view or more to the point, "musings" were made into a huge deal no matter how clearly I explained myself. Therefore it seemed that my explanation did not go any way towards placating those who felt it wrong, homophobic etc etc. I made a comment therefore I am homophobic and anything else anyone felt like tossing in. I am none of those things. I haveclarified my position but it is not good enough for some. I still haven't given my pound of flesh. >In alt.support.diabetes on Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:18:08 +1100 in Msg.# ><13krmo391nroiaa@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Well, I guess that is one way to look at it, but it's a way that one chooses >& not necessarily what's being said or what was meant. and is it possible for everyone disagreeing with Jan to be making that very mistake? SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . "Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in message > What's being asked is for someone to consider how some descriptions and > words can cause actual unintended harm, if they were not aware of it in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > No one has been told nor requested to be dishonest or to conform. So what do call the comments like : she hasn't learned anything yet, why can't she see we are upset etc? If I said yes thank you girls, I have learned now, happy? I have nothing to learn, I have not spoken with ill intent. I didn't like you calling MM ugly, that labelled him and I don't like Priscilla's use of the word queer. Mack has actually been very spot on for almost everything brought up. I have never seen such a blatant misuse of dictionary words in my life. It's very much a see it our way or we will hound you into submission. Yeah the dictionary says this but we are going to change its meaning to suit ourselves and our argument. How often do you live the gay life Susan? You seem very much an outsider looking in. I live it and breathe it every day. My local "community" of close gay/bi/lesbian friends is close to 40. My group never have and probably never will need your brand of rescuing. We are happy and comfortable with who we are, some of the guys camp it up at parties just for kicks but on the whole we just live our normal every day lives like the rest of the community at large. We don't mind labelling, its human nature to label it seems and we aren't in danger of being bashed or murdered. As Alan said, that is not our society. We don't frequent the places where these types of incidents occur. We don't need your brand of help, save it for those gays and individuals who want it. I once tried to help a friend out of her house due to some major marital problems. She said hang on, we are at odds here, I am trying to SAVE my marriage not be helped out of it. Sometimes people just don't want well-meaning help because isn't actually what they are after. In your society perhaps gays do need your help, go for it. In alt.support.diabetes on Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:56:42 +1100 in Msg.# <13krhvegmf98le8@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote: > ... In your society perhaps gays do need your help, go for it. ... Another thing this is not about! This is not about helping some group, or not helping some group, ... or about some group somewhere needing help or some group not needing it. This is simply not a my society vs. your society issue, although some parts of this discussion may have cultural differences involved. What this is about is people's opinions about what's good for the world we live in - and people do not agree about that. We do not have consensus on it. That's not shocking. Yes, we people do have different opinions. And, there's nothing wrong with that. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "Writing does bring indescribable healing to us all & creates emotionally healthy souls." - Alice J. Wisler > In alt.support.diabetes on Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:56:42 +1100 in Msg.# > <13krhvegmf98le8@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > consensus on it. That's not shocking. Yes, we people do have different > opinions. And, there's nothing wrong with that. But I am still being requested to learn. I have a difference of opinion but I need to learn to think differently?? How about you learn what I am saying. My comments aren't telling anyone what's good for the world, words like Susan's for example are: "What's being asked is for someone to consider how some descriptions and words can cause actual unintended harm, if they were not aware of it in the first place. Period." I have considered my comments and they don't come up wanting. It may not be what you want to hear but it doesn't make me wrong and Susan, or anyone who agrees with her, right. In my opinion Susan's calling someone ugly has intended harm. Ugly is a negative word with no doubts. The hypocrisy is astounding. But they are opinions as are your, I am not apologising for my opinions nor will I say I have learned something from your opinions. I don't think you can see that you are still saying your opinions are the right ones and mine are wrong. Otherwise it would be an agree to disagree on our opinions without the need for 400 messages trying to urge me to "learn". Or if not urge, treating my lack of learning with disdain. The clicking of the collective tongues over my failure to learn is quite audible. In alt.support.diabetes on Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:33:27 +1100 in Msg.# <13krnkqead63q0e@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote: > > Another thing this is not about! This is not about helping some group, or > > not helping some group, ... or about some group somewhere needing help or [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > But I am still being requested to learn. Personally I don't have a problem with that, with 'one' being requested to learn, or put the way it originally was, for information to be presented & there be a desire for others to learn from it. > I have a difference of opinion but I need to learn to think differently? You'll note that I didn't say that, before, here now or in the prior post that you likely haven't seen yet. > How about you learn what I am saying. How about when you were willing to actually explain what you were saying, I read everything you said & asked questions to try to better understand what you did mean? > My comments aren't telling anyone what's good for the world, words like > Susan's for example are: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Period." That's her opinion. I don't have a problem with it. I don't perceive some moral indignation or superiority when someone expressed their opinion, whether I agree with it or disagree with it. > I have considered my comments and they don't come up wanting. It may not be > what you want to hear but it doesn't make me wrong and Susan, or anyone who > agrees with her, right. You might remember that I said eons back up the thread that this isn't about some being right & some being wrong. > ... I don't think you can see that > you are still saying your opinions are the right ones and mine are wrong. I can't still be saying it, because I never began to say it. > Otherwise it would be an agree to disagree on our opinions without the need > for 400 messages trying to urge me to "learn". Which is exactly how it began. > Or if not urge, treating my > lack of learning with disdain. The clicking of the collective tongues over > my failure to learn is quite audible. Here's where the inability to conclusively gauge someone's tone in a text only environment comes into play. What you hear as this disdain, etc. may be nothing but someone else's frustration with going around in circles & feeling unheard. People very naturally want to feel they've been heard. Often they do not. I have heard you & Alan & understood what you were saying & I disagree with you. That is my opinion. Obviously I also understand that you do not agree with me. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "What is it? I had a hard day at the office & I need to decompose." - Faith, HOPE & FAITH, 4-8-04 > So what do call the comments like : she hasn't learned anything yet, why > can't she see we are upset etc? If I said yes thank you girls, I have [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > hound you into submission. Yeah the dictionary says this but we are going to > change its meaning to suit ourselves and our argument. It's not about like or preferences for language, though you seem to want to trivialize it that way. > How often do you live the gay life Susan? You seem very much an outsider > looking in. While not gay, bi nor trans, I'm otherwise as far from being an outsider as one can be otherwise. For many years, in fact. I live it and breathe it every day. My local "community" of > close gay/bi/lesbian friends is close to 40. As I've said before; being gay is not a credential nor a free pass, nor does it even mean you're necessarily free of homophobic attitudes. [snippage of excess verbiage] Susan We have gone so far from my origional poitn of everyone has the right to find a look or a affectation wierd. I might find sombody green eyeshadow weird looking and if they are in the news allegedly hogtieng thier mates weird behaving. The fact that everyone assumed because alan said boy george was wierd that he was saying so because the man is gay. I would love to go back in time and have him say the same thing about britney spears or paris hilton..i would bet nobody would have said a word.. We can argue in circles forever.. but the point is i will think who i think is wierd and like who i like dislike who i dislike because i can..lol KROM > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Susan > We have gone so far from my origional poitn of everyone has the right to > find a look or a affectation wierd. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > britney spears or paris hilton..i would bet nobody would have said a > word.. Both have been commented on this year and it hardly raised an eyebrow. I also believe this was about gayness as well. I have already seen Susan label Marilyn Manson in this same thread where she complained about giving people labels. Hypocrisy? Alive and well and living in ASD. God should be worried, he is about to be finally usurped. t is i will think who i think > is wierd and like who i like dislike who i dislike because i can..lol And you can bet your sweet bippy that you are not even remotely the only person in here who thinks that way. > We have gone so far from my origional poitn of everyone has the right to > find a look or a affectation wierd. > I might find sombody green eyeshadow weird looking and if they are in the > news allegedly hogtieng thier mates weird behaving. > The fact that everyone assumed because alan said boy george was wierd that > he was saying so because the man is gay. It had nothing to do with him being gay or not. Susan In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:14:52 -0600 in Msg.# > We have gone so far from my origional poitn of everyone has the right to > find a look or a affectation wierd. Hold on. That was my original point, before you entered the fray. > I might find sombody green eyeshadow weird looking and if they are in the > news allegedly hogtieng thier mates weird behaving. > The fact that everyone assumed because alan said boy george was wierd that > he was saying so because the man is gay. Not what happened. And, this is being repetitive. We've already been here. > I would love to go back in time and have him say the same thing about > britney spears or paris hilton..i would bet nobody would have said a word.. > We can argue in circles forever.. but the point is i will think who i think > is wierd and like who i like dislike who i dislike because i can..lol Also been there since it has zero to do with who ya like & who ya don't like. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel "Language is more fashion than science, and matters of usage, spelling and pronunciation tend to wander around like hemlines." - Bill Bryson, quoted in The Independent 17 Dec (1994) I enter because i can. <grin> KROM "DonnaB shallotpeel" <shallotpeel@comcast.net> wrote > > Hold on. That was my original point, before you entered the fray. >What's being asked is for someone to consider how some descriptions and >words can cause actual unintended harm, if they were not aware of it in >the first place. >Susan and the PC movement is reborn. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:00:01 -0500 in Msg.# <oi7rk3h9ued7vuv5v8lku72i156o4bvvgb@4ax.com>, Màck©® <IAM@OneWithTheGoddess.org> wrote: > >Yeah. It's getting old. I feel like she is saying, "Don't be yourself! Be > >the way *I* want you to be." > > isn't that what everyone is expecting of her? We are this way, how > dare you be different and honest enough to say so. It's not what I'm expecting of anyone. And, I've been unflinchingly honest. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "You may be disappointed if you fail, but you are doomed if you don't try." - Beverly Sills >"Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in message > > >leading >> them to be closeted the way Jan would like it I missed this when it went through. It is of course blatantly false. and is very ugly. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . them to be closeted the way Jan would like it > I missed this when it went through. It is of course blatantly false. > and is very ugly. Expecting others to hide their true nature because you find its expression unappealing is insistence on closeting. Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Susan another false statement. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >>"Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I missed this when it went through. It is of course blatantly false. > and is very ugly. And also untrue. I have not even hinted at anything like despite Susan's and Priscilla's remarks to the contrary. Priscilla: "I believe so, and Jan has been talking a lot about gay men and how she disapproves of how they behave." Luckily anyway who can read will find that they are being presumptuous. I have repeatedly said I don't understand why some people, gays and heterosexuals, young teens etc feel the need to over exaggerate in public to gain attention. I can't get any plainer than that. For anyone who thinks Oz hasn't got this problem: http://jos.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/37/3/257 Journal of Sociology, Vol. 37, No. 3, 257-273 (2001) DOI: 10.1177/144078301128756337 © 2001 Australian Sociological Association Engendering homophobia: violence, sexuality and gender conformity Stephen Tomsen University of Newcastle, Australia Gail Mason University of Sydney The links between social constructions of sexuality and gender are theoretically and politically problematic. A contemporary social movement understanding of violence against gay men and lesbians as ‘homophobic’ suggests a solid basis for coalitionist action. But important aspects of the imposition of gender conformity are a common thread in the experience of female, male and transsexual victims and the motives of perpetrators. Detail of violent and hostile incidents is drawn from two Australian studies: Victorian research on the experiences of 75 lesbians and a New South Wales study of 74 homicides with anti-homosexual motives. Violent acts commonly reflect the hatred and stigma felt towards women and men whose sexuality falls outside of acceptable gendered boundaries. Additionally, this research signals the importance of violence and harassment for the attainment and protection of a masculine identity among perpetrators, and the significance of gender in ways that call for a new understanding of ‘homophobia’ as a socially widespread phenomenon. Key Words: gender • hate crime • homophobia • masculinity • sexuality • violence http://www.murdoch.edu.au/elaw/issues/v3n2/fitzgera.html E LAW | Murdoch University Electronic Journal of Law - Copyright Policy ________________________________________ Australia's Criminal Justice System Fails Lesbians and Gay Men Author: Andrew Fitzgerald Student, School of Law, Murdoch University Subjects: Criminal justice administration of Australia (Other articles) Discrimination Australia (Other articles) Sexual orientation (Other articles) Issue: Volume 3, Number 2 (July 1996) Category: Comment Introduction 1. This paper discusses Australia's criminal justice system and the way it relates to the 'sexual orientation' of a party. Research is presented which seeks to underscore the extent of the difficulties faced by lesbian and gay men within that system. Exam ination is made of the broader social context within which Australia's criminal justice system operates. This process will highlight some of the dynamics which operate to subordinate lesbians and gay men generally and which assist in shaping Australia's legal system. Discussion will then be focused on theoretical analysis of the concept of homosexuality and social and legal discourse in relation to 'hate crimes' against lesbians and gay men. Finally, a conclusion is offered that seeks, very briefly, to put forward possible solutions which would improve the chances for homosexuals to achieve similar standards of justice to those which are considered immutable by the wider heterosexual population. http://www.thepinkbroad.com.au/issue/25/news.htm News Issue 25, Tuesday 1 August, 2006 Back to Archives page HREOC meets howard's invisible people National day of action planned for august 13 Cross burning "not a hate crime" if the victim is gay Latvian pride violated http://www.globalgayz.com/australia-aborigine-news.html Introduction This section looks at homophobia and its impact on Indigenous people Those from the first peoples of the land and sea in Australia. We have a 200+ year history of invasion, dispossession and conflict between the original inhabitants and mainstream Australia. Non-Indigenous people are only beginning to acknowledge this. Meanwhile, Indigenous people have survived, adapted and overcome displacement. This section recognises that there will be different questions and answers for Indigenous peoples in Australia. These Indigenous peoples are Aboriginal Australians, Torres Strait Island peoples, and those who have been taken from culture and family and may now know little of their heritage and history. Indigenous and gay? We know that Australia was home to hundreds of different clan groups with different languages and Dreamings. Attitudes towards sex, sexuality and homosexuality varied across different groups of Indigenous peoples. The impact of western cultures has also been different. Government policies, church missions, and forced adoption and fostering of children have had different impacts on different groups. All these factors still do. Many Indigenous communities had/have a place for people who identify as ‘sistergirls’. This term is used affectionately between Aboriginal women. It is also used to identify people who identify as transgender or transsexual. There is no one term within all Indigenous communities which covers lesbians, gay men and sistergirls. Some communities used terms like ‘Two-one’ to show their view that two spirits (both male and female) lived within one person. All Indigenous groups placed and still place a high priority on family, community and the wisdom and authority of Elders. These values remain important for all Indigenous peoples. Indigenous Australians may experience harassment, discrimination and violence to a greater level than do non-Indigenous people. They experience violence against them because of racism as well as homophobia. Impact of violence Indigenous peoples are far over-represented as victims/survivors of violence. It is likely that they experience greater levels of homophobic violence. There is no evidence to show that Indigenous people are more likely to be violent against lesbians and gay men. Anecdotal evidence suggests the opposite. Many Indigenous people have had their life opportunities limited and defined by other people and mainstream Australian culture. Family and culture are very important for most Indigenous people. Those who identify as lesbian, gay transgender or sistergirl have to find a place within their own communities as well as deal with wider racism and homophobia. This may mean not being able to be fully part of either culture. http://www.zipworld.com.au/~josken/hateread.htm BIBLIOGRAPHY AND RECOMMENDED READING LIST Contact us at: josken_at_zipworld_com_au ANTI-HOMOPHOBIA Week 2000, August 2000, NSW Lesbian and Gay Anti-Violence Project A Report into Youth Violence in New South Wales - Standing Committee on Social Issues, Legislative Council of NSW Report No.8, September 1995 A time for action . . . . . The New South Wales Department of School Education and Anti-Gay and Lesbian Violence - Education Policy Statement No.2, April 7 1991. Written by the NSW Gay and Lesbian Rights Lobby Australian and International Bibliography of Homophobia and Homophobic Violence - A reference list of works on Homophobic and Hate-related Violence by Amy Gentle BA and Polly Purser, published by the Lesbian and Gay Anti-Violence Project 1999 Australia's Criminal Justice System Fails Lesbians and Gay Men - by Andrew Fitzgerald, published by E LAW - Murdoch University Electronic Journal of Law, Volume 3, Number 2 (July 1996) Board of Studies, NSW Australia, 1990, Syllabus years 11-12 - 2 unit Personal Development Health and Physical Education Bondi Badlands by Greg Callaghan published by The Weekend Australian Magazine, 4-5 October 2003 Crimes of hate, conspiracy of silence - Torture and ill-treatment based on sexual identity published by Amnesty International Publications, 2001 Faces of Hate Crime in Australia edited by Chris Cunneen, David Fraser, Stephen Tomsen, Published by Hawkins Press, 1997 (Book reference: [State Library of NSW] FACES OF HATE - Hate crimes in Australia Editors: Chris Cunneen, David Fraser, Stephen Tomsen - Hawkins Press 1997 PO Box 45 Annandale NSW 2038)* (Chris Cunneen - Assoc. Prof. Inst. of Criminology, University of Sydney) *Chapter 5: Sexual identity and victimhood in gay-hate murder trials - Stephen Tomsen (Comstock 1991, Herek and Berrill 1992, Mason 1993) Fear and Loathing on university council - article by Ryan Heath UTS in Vertigo No. 7 published by University of Technology Sydney 2000 Fear or Favour - sexual assault of young prisoners by David M Heilpern, published by Southern Cross University Press, 1998 Final Report of the STREETWATCH IMPLEMENTAION ADVISORY COMMITTEE published by the NSW Anti-Discrimination Board June 1994 Gay-Hate Related Homicides: An Overview of Major Findings in New South Wales by Jenny Mouzos and Sue Thompson published by Australian Institute of Criminology - trends and issues in crime and criminal justice, No.155 June 2000 Going to Fair Day - by Brenna and Vicki Harding, Illustrated by Chris Bray-Cotton, Published by Vicki Harding, 2002, Distributed by Bulldog Books, Sydney Hatred, Murder and Male Honour - Anti-homosexual Homicides in New South Wales, 1980-2000 by Stephen Tomsen, published by Australian Institute of Criminology Research and Public Policy Series No.43, 2002 HOMOPHOBIA - What are you scared of? Bulletin Number 3 February 1998, NSW Lesbian and Gay Anti-Violence Project (AVP) INSULT AND THE MAKING OF THE GAY SELF by Didier Eribon - Translated by Michael Lucey - Published by Duke University Press 2004 Koalas on Parade - by Brenna and Vicki Harding, Illustrated by Chris Bray-Cotton, Published in 2005 by Learn to Include Books, Sydney, Distributed in Australia by Bulldog Books Lesbian and Gay Anti-Violence Project - Strategic Plan 1992-1993 lifesaver - the journal of the lesbian and gay anti-violence project 1995-1998 My House - by Brenna and Vicki Harding, Illustrated by Chris Bray-Cotton, First published in 2002 by Learn to Include, Reprinted 2004, Distributed in Australia by Bulldog Books, Sydney Not yet equal: Report of the VGLRL Same Sex Relationships Survey 2005 by Ruth McNair and Nikos Thomacos, Victorian Gay and Lesbian Rights Lobby with the assistance of Gay and Lesbian Health Victoria, July 2005, ISBN: 1920948678 Our town: working with same-sex attracted young people in rural communities - A report on the experiences of twelve projects established in rural Victoria to promote the mental health of same-sex attracted people - Marion Frere, Janet Jukes, Michael Crowhurst, VicHealth, 2001 safety in our schools - strategies for responding to homophobia - Australian Research Centre in Sex, Health and Society, La Trobe University, and Vic Health The Beat - A True Account of the Bondi Gay Murders - By I.J.Fenn published by The Five Mile Press 2006 The Bride Wore Pink - Legal Recognition of our Relationships - A Discussion Paper - February 1994, Lesbian and Gay Legal Rights Service, a project of the NSW Gay and Lesbian Rights Lobby THE HIGH PRICE OF HEAVEN - A book about the enemies of pleasure and freedom by David Marr published by Allen and Unwin 1999 THE LARAMIE PROJECT - A play about the brutal murder of Matthew Shepard in 1998 By Moises Kaufman and the Members of the Tectonic Theater Project published by Vintage Books 2001 The Police and you - A survey of Lesbians and gay men in South Australia - A report of a survey of the experiences of lesbians and gay men with the South Australian Police conducted in 1993, Written by Barbara Baird, Keith Mason and Ian Purcell - A project of Lesbian and Gay Community Action, 1994 The Rainbow Cubby House - by Brenna and Vicki Harding, Illustrated by Chris Bray-Cotton, Published in 2005 by Learn to include, Sydney, Distributed in Australia by Bulldog Books Writing Themselves In - A National Report on the Sexuality, Health and Well-Being of Same-Sex Attracted Young People (Monograph Series No.7) 1998 (reprinted 2002) Written by Lynne Hillier, Deborah Dempsey, Lyn Harrison, Lisa Beale, Lesley Matthews, Doreen Rosenthal, Published by the National Centre in HIV Social Research, Australian Research Centre in Sex, Health and Society, La Trobe University writing themselves in again: 6 years on The 2nd national report on the sexuality, health and well-being of same-sex attracted young people in Australia Written by Lynne Hillier, Alina Turner, Anne Mitchell (Monograph Series No. 50) 2005. ARCSHS - Australian Reesearch Centre in Sex, Health and Society, La Trobe University "You shouldn't have to hide to be safe" - A Report on Homophobic Hostilities and Violence Against Gay Men and Lesbians in New South Wales - December 2003 Attorney General's Department of New South Wales Violence against Homosexual Men and Women - Handouts and Overheads - NSW Department of School Education 1991 > x-no-archive: yes > > For anyone who thinks Oz hasn't got this problem: Who said Oz didn't have a problem? If you "googled" every country in the world it would be doubtful of you would find 1 unique problem. The difference is the magnitude, or not, of the problem. There are problems, they are not denied, it is just not on a scale like what I am seeing you talk about in the US. > Who said Oz didn't have a problem? If you "googled" every country in the > world it would be doubtful of you would find 1 unique problem. The > difference is the magnitude, or not, of the problem. There are problems, > they are not denied, it is just not on a scale like what I am seeing you > talk about in the US. What statistics do you have to substantiate that claim? Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > What statistics do you have to substantiate that claim? I am sure the FBI would have statistics. Are you now saying the US doesn't have a major problem with murders for sexual reasons? I am not following, one minute the argument was about how large a problem it was and now you don't think it is as large as the Australian problem of 74 deaths over 21 years in our largest populated state? In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:32:44 +1100 in Msg.# <13kpdp49m6o2r7b@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote: > > x-no-archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > don't think it is as large as the Australian problem of 74 deaths over 21 > years in our largest populated state? Murders for sexual reasons would probably fall into various different categories. But, we didn't just discuss murder ... However, if someone really wants to come up with the populations of the US and Australia & Crime Statistics & do a comparison ... wouldn't that just be an incredible waste of time? This is SO not about some affront to either country, or national pride in any way, jingoistic or not. Just say no to flags being waved next. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "You may not realize it when it happens, but a kick in the teeth may be the best thing in the world for you." - Walt Disney DonnaB shallotpeel wrote in message >This is SO not about some affront to either country, or national pride in >any way, jingoistic or not. > >Just say no to flags being waved next. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL>>>>>>>>>>running with my flag to be first in line. :-) Cheri In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:19:21 -0800 in Msg.# <Coydna7xFdZLXNHanZ2dnUVZ_tmhnZ2d@inreach.com>, "Cheri" <gserviceatinreachdotcom> wrote: > DonnaB shallotpeel wrote in message > > > >Just say no to flags being waved next. > > LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL>>>>>>>>>>running with my flag to be first in line. :-) Cheri! Never run with a flag! You'll put yer eye out! <G> Yeah, LOL. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "Comedians and politicians each tell the audience what it wants to hear. The difference is that the audience laughs at the comedian and the politician laughs at the audience." - Alexis A. Gilliland >In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:32:44 +1100 in Msg.# ><13kpdp49m6o2r7b@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >Just say no to flags being waved next. first she says that she doesn't see the problems locally, then she clarifies it that she is not saying they do not exist just not as bad as they in locations within her country that she does not live. The Americans are saying the problem not only exists but is much greater than perceived(without any OZZY facts) then a crime report is posted, just 1 mind you, on this issue in specific locations in Oz. Then we say that we can't compared the problem as it exists in the USA to as it exists in Oz because that would what jingoistic? If you are going to continue dismissing everything she has to say because it does not agree with your take on the issue, then you are not discussing anything but simply telling her what she should be doing and thinking. The truth is, hate crimes in America are far more of problem than they have been or are in Australia. In part because of the population difference and also in part because the culture is different. Do you think that they Gay Mardi Gras that takes place every year in Australia would ever take place here in the US, on even half the scale it does there? If you are simply not going to consider cultural differences when discussing these issues you will never understand the other person or where they are coming from. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . Màck©® wrote in message ... >>In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:32:44 +1100 in Msg.# >><13kpdp49m6o2r7b@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >Australia would ever take place here in the US, on even half the scale >it does there? Yes, I believe they would be on the same scale. San Francisco has several such parades a year, they even televise them where I live. I agree about the hate crimes though. Gay beatings and deaths seem to take place in CA quite often, which not only outrages me, it surprises me since CA is supposed to be progressive with social issues. My teenage grandson is gay, and he lives in the South (Alabama) I worry about him and his safety all the time, but it seems the problem is national, not region specific. Cheri > Yes, I believe they would be on the same scale. San Francisco has > several such parades a year, they even televise them where I live. I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > about him and his safety all the time, but it seems the problem is > national, not region specific. There's the Greenwich Village gay Hallowe'en parade every year, the HYOOGE pride parade in NYC, and the hyooge gay pride parade and festival in my suburban town every year, for starters. There's also an annual glbt prom so glbt kids can participate unharassed in their own gender presentations. Mh local cinema has glbt film fests... There's still rampant anti glbp bullying in every school. Susan In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:20:28 -0500 in Msg.# <qa8rk35jf9is63mb4a4ppluggck4hue606@4ax.com>, Màck©® <IAM@OneWithTheGoddess.org> wrote: > >Murders for sexual reasons would probably fall into various different > >categories. But, we didn't just discuss murder ... [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > say that we can't compared the problem as it exists in the USA to as > it exists in Oz because that would what jingoistic? I wouldn't characterize what I've said or what anyone on either 'side' of this in the way you have here, so, uh, no, I disagree with you that that's what has transpired. And, no, I did not link my conclusion that this is not in some way USA vs Oz to anything about crime statistics. I even specifically left space between them. But, if that was unclear to you, let this be an improvement in wording: I spoke here of things moving toward a jingoistic flag-waving position of USA vs Oz enmity as a general reflection on how the discussion was moving, just as I did previously about it not being about someone being right & someone else being wrong. > If you are going to continue dismissing everything she has to say > because it does not agree with your take on the issue, then you are > not discussing anything but simply telling her what she should be > doing and thinking. I'm not dismissing anything anyone here is saying, no matter what 'side' they're on. And, I am certainly not telling anyone what to do or think. > The truth is, hate crimes in America are far more of problem than they > have been or are in Australia. In part because of the population [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > discussing these issues you will never understand the other person or > where they are coming from. Mack, you're not saying anything new here or anything I don't know, or anything I don't subscribe to. You're certainly entitled to say this stuff, but, I truly don't get it, which of course is also okay. Oh, and I specifically mentioned comparing the populations of the USA and Oz in what you snipped, ... seems weird to me, given what you posted, but, hey, that's life. Personally, as I said, to me it would be a waste of time for someone to undertake a comparative statistical study, but if you did so, and your goal was to compare how much of a problem each country has, you would factor population *in*, not out, so, no, population difference wouldn't be a reason why the USA has a bigger problem. The only reason it came up though was because of a simple interest in refuting what was a simple seeming statement about Australia being free of this kind of problem. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "You know, Barbara, the Arabs have decided to jack up the price of oil another 20% ... uh, the CIA has been caught opening Senator Humphrey's mail ... there's a civil war in Angola ... another one in Beirut ... the, uh, New York City's still facing default ... they finally caught up with Patricia Hearst ... & the whole front page of the 'Daily News' is Howard Beale." - Diana, flipping through the paper, NETWORK [1976] > I am sure the FBI would have statistics. Are you now saying the US doesn't > have a major problem with murders for sexual reasons? I am not following, > one minute the argument was about how large a problem it was and now you > don't think it is as large as the Australian problem of 74 deaths over 21 > years in our largest populated state? you're really twisting and contorting and being evasive. you said that there was apparently a much bigger problem here than there, I never said there's no problem here. Alan did say there was no such problem there. I provided ample proof that the problem in Oz is substantial and I expect, though I don't know, that it's equal to here. Susan >> I am sure the FBI would have statistics. Are you now saying the US doesn't >> have a major problem with murders for sexual reasons? I am not following, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Susan Please do not lie about the things I said or did not say. Quote me directly. I did NOT say that. I won't bother repeating what I did say - google it. At least, with my comments, you can. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts >>> I am sure the FBI would have statistics. Are you now saying the US >>> doesn't [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > repeating what I did say - google it. At least, with my > comments, you can. You did say that. I remember. But I can't quote you because I'm not tracking back through all this drivel to try to find it. >>>you said that there was apparently a much bigger problem here than >>>there, I never said there's no problem here. Alan did say there was no [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >You did say that. I remember. But I can't quote you because I'm not >tracking back through all this drivel to try to find it. This is descending to kindergarten level. Actually, that was a while ago. You remember? Take the trouble to track back or apologise. I did NOT say there was no such problem here. What I did say was that our society is different. We see things through different eyes. I also said we do have problems but everything is relative. Our crime problems - hate crimes included - are major to us but minuscule compared to many; including yours. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com Psyllium, Fibre, Muesli and Nuts >>>>you said that there was apparently a much bigger problem here than >>>>there, I never said there's no problem here. Alan did say there was no [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > hate crimes included - are major to us but minuscule > compared to many; including yours. I did quote it in another thread. >>>>>you said that there was apparently a much bigger problem here than >>>>>there, I never said there's no problem here. Alan did say there was no [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >I did quote it in another thread. You quoted that I said we live in a different society. That is not "Alan did say there was no such problem there." In fact I have regularly said that we do, but not at the same level. That's the end for me. If you really can't see the difference, and it appears that you can't, then continuing this discussion is pointless. It was already. This thread that has shown such an enormous communications gulf between you and the other ""me toos" and the couple this side of the Pacific. I find it hard to express adequately my disappointment in the way the original trivial comment led to this. I've had enough. I'll say the rest in a separate post. Alan, T2, Australia. >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Susan Did you ask Alan is he were talking about his own personal experiences, what he has seen first hand? Or what he has actually researched concerning his entire country? I have visited family members in my family and in my spouses family who have never seen any first hand discrimination and simply don't understand why others are so hateful. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Susan crime statistics are publically available for almost every country. Google is your friend. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . M??? <IAM@onewiththegoddess.org> wrote: >>x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >>Susan > crime statistics are publically available for almost every country. > Google is your friend. Crime statistics are only half the story, the other half is how they are perceived. For example, in the UK young men are much more likely to get attacked than young women, but young women are much more scared of being attacked. Young women are also much more scared of being attacked today than some decades ago, even though some decades ago the risk of attack was greater. SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > they are not denied, it is just not on a scale like what I am seeing you > talk about in the US. Alan said you all didn't have this problem. >>> x-no-archive: yes >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Alan said you all didn't have this problem. No he didn't, read back thru the 400 posts again. >>>> x-no-archive: yes >>>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > No he didn't, read back thru the 400 posts again. No thanks. But Susan remembers him saying it and I remember him saying it. That's good enough for me...considering Susan and I rarely agree on anything! :) >>>>> x-no-archive: yes >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > it. That's good enough for me...considering Susan and I rarely agree on > anything! :) Susan has misquoted every thing I am supposed to have said and added a few presumptions into the mix as well. But it is your prerogative to continue criticising without the proof positive in front of you. Just doesn't make for a proper discussion. >>>>>> x-no-archive: yes >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > criticising without the proof positive in front of you. Just doesn't make > for a proper discussion. Okay... Since I had nothing more exciting to do. Here's the quote: "On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:08:59 -0500, Jackie Patti <jpatti@ccil.org> wrote: >Ozgirl wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >it's a lot easier to telegraph your sexuality and allow others to make the >first move. We do not live in that society. Alan, T2, Australia." >>>>>>> x-no-archive: yes >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > We do not live in that society. That is so not the same as saying deaths don't happen here because of sexual orientation. >>>>>>>> x-no-archive: yes >>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > That is so not the same as saying deaths don't happen here because of > sexual orientation. Doesn't sound that way to me! And it didn't to others too. I know there was someone else besides Susan and I who thought so because they posted a link. And no, I'm not looking that one up. This whole thing is pointless now. We'll just keep butting heads on both sides and it will just keep going on like that. > That is so not the same as saying deaths don't happen here because of sexual > orientation. In it's context it is. And we're not talking about orientation alone here, we're talking about gender presentation. Susan In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:34:04 +1100 in Msg.# <13kpve3198d2j2e@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote: > > Okay... Since I had nothing more exciting to do. Here's the quote: > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > That is so not the same as saying deaths don't happen here because of sexual > orientation. What it is, is what I recalled, which was Alan, or if not Alan then someone else, saying, or implying, that Australia didn't have the kind of problem that we have, aka, in this context, didn't have a problem with violence against gays, hostility against gays, etc. which at the time I knew to be untrue since Australia does, in fact, have just those kinds of problems. But, this had an excellent chance of being a meaningful bit of dialogue between people. It has been between some people. It has not between others. And, it might as well, for the most part, be a food fight at this point. And, no, I'm not going to call you or Alan or any other non-USAer a 'me, too' or any other name. I began talking about this because labeling is a bad thing for people to do, IMO. So, I'm hardly set to begin calling names here, now. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive & usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us & is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair." - H. L. Mencken > And, no, I'm not going to call you or Alan or any other non-USAer a 'me, > too' or any other name. I began talking about this because labeling is a bad > thing for people to do, IMO. So, I'm hardly set to begin calling names here, > now. One of the big differences between the way Americans use English and Brits and Aussies use it is in the attitudes to labelling and what the use of labels is held to imply. This entire discussion reminds me of Derek Freeman and Margaret Mead arguing about the Samoans :-) SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] In alt.support.diabetes on 29 Nov 2007 02:32:21 GMT in Msg.# <5r6mllFl7r7nU4@mid.individual.net>, Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote: > One of the big differences between the way Americans use English and > Brits and Aussies use it is in the attitudes to labelling and what the > use of labels is held to imply. > > This entire discussion reminds me of Derek Freeman and Margaret Mead > arguing about the Samoans :-) Well, personally my background is in words & communication but I hang around Sociologists all the time so that's a bit more like Anthropologists, but then, there's Linguistics to consider. [No, not linguini. I have restricted pasta like crazy since diagnosis.] LOL SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "I have a great deal more to say that will shock you out of all patience ... and as fast as these become clear to me you may depend on my proclaiming them." - Ralph Waldo Emerson, quoted in Kenneth S. Sacks, UNDERSTANDING EMERSON, 2003 > "Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > across the "scared to come out of the closet" thing here in more than 20 > years. Did it ever occur to you that some people WANT to be noticed? A current example is my husband. He is in the other room and going on and on about the TV show he is watching. Rachel Ray. I can't stand her show. She is just too bubbly for my liking and I don't care for the kind of food she cooks. I have told him repeatedly if I wanted to watch the show, I would. I have a TV in this room. The TV here is even on, to a show Angela is trying to watch, but she can't watch it because her dad won't shut up. He does this in pretty much any situation we are in. If things are calm and peaceful, he will "accidentally on purpose" cause some sort of accident just to stir things up. Or he will just go on and on about his latest malady which now is a cough that has gone on for three months. He has some sort of inner need to have all attention focused on him all the time. Some people just do. "Julie Bove" <juliebove@verizon.net> wrote in message news:n423j.14311 > Did it ever occur to you that some people WANT to be noticed? Umm yes. That's what I am talking about. There are different ways to get noticed. What parent prefers to give in to the child's tantrum for example? The child that is seeking attention. A cluey child eventually realises there are different and better ways to gain attention. Some people get the wrong attention. Example the 12 yr old done up like an 18 yr old that is always hanging around in my street. I have heard some of the boys in the street calling her derogatory names for acting like she does - trying to get boy's attention. Not nice at all for the boys to say but they are telling her in bad words what her attention seeking methods are doing. One day one of the boys may take her up on what she "appears" to be offering, even though it probably isn't what she offering. All I am saying is that there ways and means to get attention without drawing the wrong attention. > "Julie Bove" <juliebove@verizon.net> wrote in message news:n423j.14311 > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > saying is that there ways and means to get attention without drawing the > wrong attention. We're not talking about children here. We're talking about adults who are behaving in the way THEY want to behave. Yes, it seems to bother you, but it isn't hurting you or anyone else. So really... Why should you care? I was 12 once. I wore short skirts, hot pants, tube tops, halter tops, etc. We all did back in those days. I don't buy that little scenario you are hinting at. Nobody called me a derogatory name, unless you call "Twiggy" derogatory. That was one of my nicknames because I was so skinny. It would appear that you are uncomfortable with anyone expressing their sexuality no matter their proclivities. > It would appear that you are uncomfortable with anyone expressing their > sexuality no matter their proclivities. I'm a man who likes to take photographs of young girls. One of my photographs of young girls seems to be generally considered a good photograph and has been specifically requested and generally admired in two exhibitions. Nevertheless when taking it I had to do it surreptitiously and quickly with a long lens and move on quickly. The mere fact that I was an old man with a big camera in the vicinity of scantily dressed young girls was already getting me glared at. I get the impression from talking to other photographers that this serious discomfort about men who like taking photographs of young girls is now pretty common on both sides of the Atlantic, and frequently occurs in people who regard themselves as tolerant of other people's sexual proclivities. SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] >> It would appear that you are uncomfortable with anyone expressing their >> sexuality no matter their proclivities. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > frequently occurs in people who regard themselves as tolerant of other > people's sexual proclivities. My friend flipped out when a man was taking pics of her. My daughter flipped out when a newspaper photographer took pics of her at a store opening. Some people just don't like having their pics taken by strangers. >>> It would appear that you are uncomfortable with anyone expressing their >>> sexuality no matter their proclivities. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> frequently occurs in people who regard themselves as tolerant of other >> people's sexual proclivities. > My friend flipped out when a man was taking pics of her. My daughter > flipped out when a newspaper photographer took pics of her at a store > opening. Some people just don't like having their pics taken by strangers. That's not what I'm talking about. I've got very hostile reactions in situations where the children and their parents were friends and had asked me to take photographs. In some cases I've been grudgingly permitted to continue, in other cases I've been threatened enough that I've moved on, despite having both the permission of the children and parents. SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] In alt.support.diabetes on 28 Nov 2007 20:35:13 GMT in Msg.# <5r61o1F133u8fU2@mid.individual.net>, Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote: > That's not what I'm talking about. I've got very hostile reactions in > situations where the children and their parents were friends and had > asked me to take photographs. In some cases I've been grudgingly > permitted to continue, in other cases I've been threatened enough that > I've moved on, despite having both the permission of the children and > parents. Hmm, and, it was somehow apparent that you had parental permission, even participation, ... as in 'were the parents there?' If so, that's really interesting. Maybe it is just an increased awareness of pedophilia. Maybe it's the increase of the near hysteria of Christian fundamentalism? Just batting around ideas ... SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "When St. Genesius, the patron saint of actors, refused to act in a Roman play that ridiculed Christianity, the legend goes, the producers executed him. It reminds some people of Broadway today." - Samuel G Freedman > In alt.support.diabetes on 28 Nov 2007 20:35:13 GMT in Msg.# > <5r61o1F133u8fU2@mid.individual.net>, Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> > wrote: >> That's not what I'm talking about. I've got very hostile reactions in >> situations where the children and their parents were friends and had >> asked me to take photographs. In some cases I've been grudgingly >> permitted to continue, in other cases I've been threatened enough that >> I've moved on, despite having both the permission of the children and >> parents. > Hmm, and, it was somehow apparent that you had parental permission, even > participation, ... as in 'were the parents there?' The parents were there and it was obvious if you asked me or them or the kids. Happened once on a hot summer's day when their kids were playing in a fountain in a park, and another time with older kids who were climbing in a climbing arena. I have to say it doesn't always happen. Sometimes a parent will happily accept the offer of copies of the photographs for their own family album in return for permission. > If so, that's really interesting. Maybe it is just an increased awareness of > pedophilia. Maybe it's the increase of the near hysteria of Christian > fundamentalism? It certainly seems like hysteria to me. It's blown up out of nothing in the last twenty or thirty years. In fact these days half of our best old classic children's authors would probably be prosecuted for pedophilia. SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] >It certainly seems like hysteria to me. It's blown up out of nothing >in the last twenty or thirty years. In fact these days half of our >best old classic children's authors would probably be prosecuted for >pedophilia. It's not blown out of nothing in this country. Every day there is some horror story of crimes committed against children by pedophiles,and other assorted low life scumbags, children being stolen right out of their beds etc., so yes, things have changed a lot in the past thirty years, and children do have to be protected from the predators...at all times. If a grandfatherly type gets looked at in a funny way for too much attention, that's sad, but necessary. Cheri > It's not blown out of nothing in this country. Every day there is some > horror story of crimes committed against children by pedophiles,and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > all times. If a grandfatherly type gets looked at in a funny way for > too much attention, that's sad, but necessary. Not to minimize the actual real problems, but I do think fear of pedophiles is blown out of proportion. Most men are not pedophiles, but most men are very uncomfortable interacting with children for fear of accusations. I smile and say hello to small children in the grocery store; Steve doesn't. Years ago, he interacted with kids as I still do, but it became less appropriate for him to do so over time. He likes kids as much as I do, just feels people view him interacting with a small child as suspicious. My stepfather will never give any of the nieces a hug or any type of physical affection because of this issue. When they were younger, he would not babysit because he wasn't going to change diapers or give anyone a bath. He just doesn't want to be alone with small children ever. The world is weird on this topic. I agree with keeping children safe, but it's over-the-top to so limit their interactions with adult males. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ Jackie Patti wrote in message <474ea293$0$26999$470ef3ce@news.pa.net>... >Not to minimize the actual real problems, but I do think fear of >pedophiles is blown out of proportion. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >The world is weird on this topic. I agree with keeping children safe, >but it's over-the-top to so limit their interactions with adult males. Yes, but still necessary...unfortunately. Too many freaks running around. I agree that most men aren't pedophiles, and many are unjustly accused as well, but that's the way it is in this day and age. Cheri > Jackie Patti wrote in message > <474ea293$0$26999$470ef3ce@news.pa.net>... [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > around. I agree that most men aren't pedophiles, and many are unjustly > accused as well, but that's the way it is in this day and age. Yet most sexual abuse of children is at the hands of a relative or trusted good friend. At least that's what statistics here say. In alt.support.diabetes on Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:00:09 +1100 in Msg.# <13kukkjb56mpa3a@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote: > Yet most sexual abuse of children is at the hands of a relative or trusted > good friend. At least that's what statistics here say. Oh, here, too. Primarily men, primarily non-stranger, which includes relatives, friends, priests, teachers, counselors, coaches, etc. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "If you're only going to have 10 rules, I don't know if [prohibiting] adultery should be one of them." - Ted Turner, speech, Feb. 16 1999, calling the Ten Commandments "A little out of date." >Yet most sexual abuse of children is at the hands of a relative or trusted >good friend. At least that's what statistics here say. That's why you have to keep an eye on some relatives, including women, as well as strangers. Sad but true. Cheri > That's why you have to keep an eye on some relatives, including women, > as well as strangers. Sad but true. Or a very sharp eye on your kids and their reactions to them. :-/ Susan >> It's not blown out of nothing in this country. Every day there is some >> horror story of crimes committed against children by pedophiles,and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> all times. If a grandfatherly type gets looked at in a funny way for >> too much attention, that's sad, but necessary. > Not to minimize the actual real problems, but I do think fear of > pedophiles is blown out of proportion. > Most men are not pedophiles, but most men are very uncomfortable > interacting with children for fear of accusations. > I smile and say hello to small children in the grocery store; Steve > doesn't. Years ago, he interacted with kids as I still do, but it > became less appropriate for him to do so over time. He likes kids as > much as I do, just feels people view him interacting with a small child > as suspicious. In past years if I found a lost child I'd stop and help it. Today that's something I dare not do. SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] >>It certainly seems like hysteria to me. It's blown up out of nothing >>in the last twenty or thirty years. In fact these days half of our >>best old classic children's authors would probably be prosecuted for >>pedophilia. > It's not blown out of nothing in this country. Every day there is some > horror story of crimes committed against children by pedophiles,and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > all times. If a grandfatherly type gets looked at in a funny way for > too much attention, that's sad, but necessary. The research into this that I've seen suggests that the incidence of pedophilic crimes hasn't increased in the last hundred or so years, what's changed is the reporting in national news media and how scared that has made many people. SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] >The research into this that I've seen suggests that the incidence of >pedophilic crimes hasn't increased in the last hundred or so years, >what's changed is the reporting in national news media and how scared >that has made many people. I don't really believe that though. Some may, I just don't. Cheri >>The research into this that I've seen suggests that the incidence of >>pedophilic crimes hasn't increased in the last hundred or so years, >>what's changed is the reporting in national news media and how scared >>that has made many people. > > I don't really believe that though. Some may, I just don't. I completely believe that prevalance has not changed, but that openness and encouragement of children and others reporting it has raised our awareness of its prevalence. Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Susan As I said Susan. I don't believe that. Some may, I just don't. Cheri > As I said Susan. I don't believe that. Some may, I just don't. So you believe the % of the population who's pedophilic has increased? Do you think that increased opportunities a la the internet or other has increased the actual prevalence, or some other cause? Susan >So you believe the % of the population who's pedophilic has increased? > >Do you think that increased opportunities a la the internet or other has >increased the actual prevalence, or some other cause? > >Susan Yes, I do believe that. I also believe that horrific crimes against children have increased dramatically, and I don't believe that the crimes that are being perpetrated against children today have been happening all along in the same numbers, and just not reported. Cheri > Yes, I do believe that. I also believe that horrific crimes against > children have increased dramatically, and I don't believe that the > crimes that are being perpetrated against children today have been > happening all along in the same numbers, and just not reported. Interesting. I view it as something that some folks are hardwired with, a probably set % of the population at any given time. You seem to be saying that increased exposure to images and/or reporting of it have actually stimulated pedophilic feelings in people who would not have had an interest in it otherwise, is that correct? Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Susan People are hardwired with all kinds of things Susan, but they don't necessarily act on many of those things. Let's just say that the *hardwired child molestors/murderers* are acting on those feelings more than they did in the past IMO, and much of it is due to liberal laws, instead of harsh sentences for these disgusting crimes, and I absolutely do not believe that you would stimulate pedophilic feelings in a person who wasn't a pedophile, no matter what kind of things you showed them. That's my final answer. :-) Cheri > People are hardwired with all kinds of things Susan, but they don't > necessarily act on many of those things. Absolutely, no question. Let's just say that the > *hardwired child molestors/murderers* are acting on those feelings > more than they did in the past IMO, and much of it is due to liberal > laws, instead of harsh sentences for these disgusting crimes, and I > absolutely do not believe that you would stimulate pedophilic feelings > in a person who wasn't a pedophile, no matter what kind of things you > showed them. That's my final answer. :-) AH, so you think harsher punishments would reduce pedophiles acting out? I don't, any more than the death sentence prevents murders. Sometimes it seems like the wisest course is to keep your kid attached to you with a lanyard til age 18 or so. :-) Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Susan once someone kills for any reason, you do not want them repeating the behavior. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >>x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > As I said Susan. I don't believe that. Some may, I just don't. All I know is I have encouraged my kids always, to tell me or shout or just tell someone. Jasmine is my worry of course. In alt.support.diabetes on Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:04:57 +1100 in Msg.# <13kuktj6o8hg1b9@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote: > All I know is I have encouraged my kids always, to tell me or shout or just > tell someone. Jasmine is my worry of course. People who take advantage of the vulnerable are the worst kind of pond scum. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel "If you want to know all about the sea, you go & ask a sailor, or a marine biologist, or an oceanographer & they can tell you a lot about the sea. But if you go & ask the sea itself, what does it say? Grumble, grumble, swish swish. It is too busy being itself to know anything about itself." - Ursula K. LeGuin I think it has risen because of the internet and population growth. For example a pervert years ago felt he was alone and probably knew what he was wanting to do was wrong and also knew that in his small town he would be found out and probably killed. Also he wouldnt likely have access to materials that would fan the flames so to speak. Today they go onto the internet and BAM all the perverse materials they could hope for and million of other perverts telling them its perfectly fine and they are part of a safe annonymus communtity. Shows like to catch a preditor shows that if u set up in any town now even small ones...hundreds of disturbed people will show up..most shocked that they are doing somthing wrong..that its "just fun on the internet and not real" Yet them turning up is very real and very scary. KROM > I completely believe that prevalance has not changed, but that openness > and encouragement of children and others reporting it has raised our > awareness of its prevalence. > > Susan In alt.support.diabetes on Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:27:52 -0600 in Msg.# > I think it has risen because of the internet and population growth. > For example a pervert years ago felt he was alone and probably knew what he [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > real" > Yet them turning up is very real and very scary. Some people are apparently unaware of how active pedophiles were in mail rings, in touch by phone, who got together regularly, etc. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "'I wish life was not so short,' he thought. 'Languages take such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'" - JRR Tolkien, The Lost Road No...my point was a simple one...lets say a guy is into people who dress as gnomes and who ride hobby horses naked..well i know i personally would pre internet have zero idea how to get ahold of such material and would feel wierd and alone in my gnomish desires... then come the internet..he logs on and types in "naked gnome" into a search engine and lo and behold all the materials he could ever hope for and wow he's not alone!..millions of others like him are there saying it is perfectlly normal. So yeah in the past people had thier ways of getting it..but again if it was in my scenerio he'd have to hang about the park in his trenchcoat about the gnomes with fear of being arrested and outted to his community as a gnome lover...and risk embarasment or physical harm if he approched the guy by the gnome and it turns out he likes beards not gnomes and was mearly admiring the gnomes beard. The internet let gnome guy seemingly safely and annonymusly fill his sick gnomish desires without the risk/ reward fears. So yeah the net makes it far easier for them...and i do believe people who normally wouldnt take the risks of finding such materials are being encouraged by the internet KROM "DonnaB shallotpeel" <shallotpeel@comcast.net> wrote > > Some people are apparently unaware of how active pedophiles were in mail > rings, in touch by phone, who got together regularly, etc. ROFLMAO I got to give it to you Krom gnomes with beards who ride hobby horses naked I gota google *that* one :-) (- -) =m=(_)=m= RodS T2 Australia > No...my point was a simple one...lets say a guy is into people who dress as > gnomes and who ride hobby horses naked..well i know i personally would pre [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> Some people are apparently unaware of how active pedophiles were in mail >> rings, in touch by phone, who got together regularly, etc. Those lil bastids is sexy! I mean ..um..er.. Those sickos! hehe i was seriously shocked when i first got online to discover that if u can think there probably is a group of people doing it. So there probably actually is such a group..lol KROM > ROFLMAO > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > RodS T2 > Australia > I got to give it to you Krom gnomes with beards who ride hobby horses > naked I gota google *that* one :-) I predict you'll find it. Every time I think to google for something outlandish and ridiculous, I find people who are into it. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ > > I got to give it to you Krom gnomes with beards who ride hobby horses > > naked I gota google *that* one :-) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Every time I think to google for something outlandish and ridiculous, I > find people who are into it. Ha I thought I had you. So I searched for swallow frogs. Got 315000 hits. Bill Frogs being low carb ;)) SignatureS Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid Ok, what ya smokin'? ;) > No...my point was a simple one...lets say a guy is into people who dress > as gnomes and who ride hobby horses naked..well i know i personally would [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> Some people are apparently unaware of how active pedophiles were in mail >> rings, in touch by phone, who got together regularly, etc. <cough> powdered gnat farts...want a puff? <takes a long draw > Wow man i taste purple! Oz...oz...ya ever like think like what if we were all a cats dream man?.. No? Think about it ... KROM "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote ... > Ok, what ya smokin'? ;) >Ok, what ya smokin'? ;) and what's it laced with? >> No...my point was a simple one...lets say a guy is into people who dress >> as gnomes and who ride hobby horses naked..well i know i personally would [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> >> KROM SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >No...my point was a simple one...lets say a guy is into people who dress as >gnomes and who ride hobby horses naked..well i know i personally would pre [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >he's not alone!..millions of others like him are there saying it is >perfectlly normal. There are 7,680 hits for "naked gnome" on google. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . LOL..figures...the sexy little devils! KROM "Màck©®" <IAM@OneWithTheGoddess.org> wrote > > There are 7,680 hits for "naked gnome" on google. "Màck©®" <IAM@OneWithTheGoddess.org> a écrit ... >>No...my point was a simple one...lets say a guy is into people who dress >>as [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > There are 7,680 hits for "naked gnome" on google. I got 6,890 ... they must be a dying breed ... ;))) In alt.support.diabetes on Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:22:25 -0800 in Msg.# <S4KdnZvXy4DCptLanZ2dnUVZ_vKunZ2d@inreach.com>, "Cheri" <gserviceatinreachdotcom> wrote: > >The research into this that I've seen suggests that the incidence of > >pedophilic crimes hasn't increased in the last hundred or so years, > >what's changed is the reporting in national news media and how scared > >that has made many people. > > I don't really believe that though. Some may, I just don't. Well, it's a cyclic kind of thing. The victims of pedophiles *may* grow up to become pedophiles. So, probably there is a certain level of increase over time. But, not a dramatic increase. There have always been pedophiles. In the past it was a secret, unreported. Now, with there being a greater consciousness of its existence, more is reported or eventually learned about. That's what is so sad about crimes that perpetuate future criminal acts. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel "In a bureaucratic system, useless work drives out useful work." - Milton Friedman On 11/29/07 2:33 PM, in article 9bfuk3pad8gj85teb5hsacj7bo9ls01lur@4ax.com, > In alt.support.diabetes on Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:22:25 -0800 in Msg.# > <S4KdnZvXy4DCptLanZ2dnUVZ_vKunZ2d@inreach.com>, "Cheri" [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > That's what is so sad about crimes that perpetuate future criminal acts. There was a new study reported in today's paper stating that have found evidence that pedophilia is not a learned abnormality. They have found some evidence, which still has to be peer reviewed and tested, that there are areas of the brain that may not be completely formed and that this is the cause of the problem. Very interesting hypothesis. If proved this will force a complete change of attitudes and maybe open a door to actually helping these people. SignatureMartha Irwin T2 Canada 1500mg. Metformin, 4mg. Avandia In alt.support.diabetes on Fri, 30 Nov 2007 04:57:54 GMT in Msg.# > On 11/29/07 2:33 PM, in article 9bfuk3pad8gj85teb5hsacj7bo9ls01lur@4ax.com, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > a complete change of attitudes and maybe open a door to actually helping > these people. I'm not sure why it would force a complete change of attitudes. However, if they could begin to come up with cures, or interventions, etc. then that would be wonderful. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel "A failure is not always a mistake, it may simply be the best one can do under the circumstances. The real mistake is to stop trying." - BF Skinner >>The research into this that I've seen suggests that the incidence of >>pedophilic crimes hasn't increased in the last hundred or so years, >>what's changed is the reporting in national news media and how scared >>that has made many people. > > I don't really believe that though. Some may, I just don't. When I was a kid I was touched up several times by older men. I never said a word. My sister had the same thing happen to her but it was closer to home and she made a huge fuss and went and lived with my grandparents when she was 13. >>>The research into this that I've seen suggests that the incidence of >>>pedophilic crimes hasn't increased in the last hundred or so years, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >and she made a huge fuss and went and lived with my grandparents when she >was 13. OK, I wasn't touched in that way as a youngster, so does that lead me to the conclusion that nobody was, of course not, but I still don't believe that pedophilia hasn't increased in the past hundred years and is just not being reported. YMMV :-) Cheri >>> Chris Malcolm wrote in message > <5r7sqvF139gp9U2@mid.individual.net>... [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > believe that pedophilia hasn't increased in the past hundred years and > is just not being reported. YMMV :-) It was pretty common in those days for kids to not report abuse, suffer in silence. My sister did well by raising the roof but it was a few years before she forgave my mother. I was an adult when my sister told me this, apparently she felt mum should have known what was going on or alternatively did know and turned a blind eye. >>>> Chris Malcolm wrote in message >> <5r7sqvF139gp9U2@mid.individual.net>... >>>>>The research into this that I've seen suggests that the incidence >> of >>>>>pedophilic crimes hasn't increased in the last hundred or so years, >>>>>what's changed is the reporting in national news media and how >> scared >>>>>that has made many people. >>>> I don't really believe that though. Some may, I just don't. >>>When I was a kid I was touched up several times by older men. I never >> said a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> she >>>was 13. >> OK, I wasn't touched in that way as a youngster, so does that lead me >> to the conclusion that nobody was, of course not, but I still don't >> believe that pedophilia hasn't increased in the past hundred years and >> is just not being reported. YMMV :-) > It was pretty common in those days for kids to not report abuse, suffer in > silence. My sister did well by raising the roof but it was a few years > before she forgave my mother. I was an adult when my sister told me this, > apparently she felt mum should have known what was going on or alternatively > did know and turned a blind eye. When I was a kid most kids wouldn't have dreamed of telling their parents or other adults about pedophilic incidents because they would either freak or refuse to believe it. My impression was that they had managed to convince themselves it was very rare, despite their own childhood experiences, and really didn't want the lid on that terrible box to be lifted. But children told each other, and we all knew the locals we had to watch out for. And in families the cousins had told each other which uncle to watch out for. Big brothers sometimes had to let Dad know to watch his step where their sister was concerned. SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] >That's not what I'm talking about. I've got very hostile reactions in >situations where the children and their parents were friends and had >asked me to take photographs. In some cases I've been grudgingly >permitted to continue, in other cases I've been threatened enough that >I've moved on, despite having both the permission of the children and >parents. OK, but that's not what you said in your earlier post. You gave no indication of permission, and permission makes all the difference in the world to me. Cheri >>That's not what I'm talking about. I've got very hostile reactions in >>situations where the children and their parents were friends and had [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>I've moved on, despite having both the permission of the children and >>parents. > OK, but that's not what you said in your earlier post. You gave no > indication of permission, and permission makes all the difference in > the world to me. Permission is only practicable in some circumstances. It would be impossible to manage to get all the appropriate permissions if you were for example photographing a few dozen kids frolicking in the surf on a beach. What's more, in all the local shopping malls and the busiest shopping streets here there are security cameras everywhere taking videos of everyone without asking anyone's permission. I should probably also mention that I specifically attract hostile attention because I'm using a big black camera with knobs on. Often in the same circumstances there are people wandering around taking photographs with tiny silver pocket digital cameras and nobody bothers with them because they're taking "snaps". Which if they're being suspicious of pedophiles is completely silly, because a pedophile would obviously avoid using the kind of camera that attracts attention. SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] >>>That's not what I'm talking about. I've got very hostile reactions in >>>situations where the children and their parents were friends and had [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >busiest shopping streets here there are security cameras everywhere >taking videos of everyone without asking anyone's permission. But everyone knows the cameras are there, which is different than somebody with a long lens camera taking pictures when someone doesn't know it. Practicable or not, I don't think it's appropriate at all to be taking pictures of kids without permission. That's JMO, but I can see that the "villagers might be chasing you with torches one day." Cheri >>>> It would appear that you are uncomfortable with anyone expressing their >>>> sexuality no matter their proclivities. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > I've moved on, despite having both the permission of the children and > parents. Hmmm... Strange. >I'm a man who likes to take photographs of young girls. One of my >photographs of young girls seems to be generally considered a good [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >mere fact that I was an old man with a big camera in the vicinity of >scantily dressed young girls was already getting me glared at. As well it should have. I don't think anybody has any business taking pictures of young girls or boys without their permission as your long lens camera suggests Chris. I see somebody taking pics like that in my neighborhood, since I live next to a high school full of young girls and boys, I'd call the police...in a hot second. Cheri Cheri >>I'm a man who likes to take photographs of young girls. One of my >>photographs of young girls seems to be generally considered a good [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>mere fact that I was an old man with a big camera in the vicinity of >>scantily dressed young girls was already getting me glared at. > As well it should have. I don't think anybody has any business taking > pictures of young girls or boys without their permission as your long > lens camera suggests Chris. I see somebody taking pics like that in my > neighborhood, since I live next to a high school full of young girls > and boys, I'd call the police...in a hot second. In the UK it's still legal for photographers to take photographs of people, including children, when both are in a public place. I used to use portrait lenses and take photographs from nearby with the permission of the people involved. Apart from other considerations you get better photographs. There are also concerns about how the photographs might be used if the people in them are recognisable, but those concerns don't apply when the people aren't recognisable. But public hostility is now so marked that I've pretty much given up photographing children in public places, except occasionally with a long lens. I've once had someone set the police on me. They were quite happy with my explanation and identification and simply advised me to try to be more careful to avoid exciting paranoid citizens in future. I find it very sad indeed that taking photographs of children enjoying themselves is now regarded with such suspicion and hostility. I see that some parents have even been prosecuted for taking photographs of their own children. It's probably just as well I'm now an old man, because I don't like the kind of place this world is turning into. SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] >> It would appear that you are uncomfortable with anyone expressing their >> sexuality no matter their proclivities. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >frequently occurs in people who regard themselves as tolerant of other >people's sexual proclivities. In the USA, might depend on local state laws, you can get locked up for taking and using anyone's photo without their permission regardless of age. And every parent has the right to prevent anyone for any reason from photographing their children. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >We're not talking about children here. We're talking about adults who are >behaving in the way THEY want to behave. Yes, it seems to bother you, but [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >hinting at. Nobody called me a derogatory name, unless you call "Twiggy" >derogatory. That was one of my nicknames because I was so skinny. ahh but that was then, do the same thing today and see what happens. >It would appear that you are uncomfortable with anyone expressing their >sexuality no matter their proclivities. she said she didn't understand the need to exaggerate. she did not say what you wrote above. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . Julie Bove wrote in message ...speaking of her husband >He does this in pretty much any situation we are in. If things are calm and >peaceful, he will "accidentally on purpose" cause some sort of accident just >to stir things up. Or he will just go on and on about his latest malady >which now is a cough that has gone on for three months. He has some sort of >inner need to have all attention focused on him all the time. Some people >just do. True, very true. Cheri >Did it ever occur to you that some people WANT to be noticed? A current >example is my husband. He is in the other room and going on and on about [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >inner need to have all attention focused on him all the time. Some people >just do. And when other people exercise their own right not to be bothered by other people's needs for attention, it doesn't make them mean or prejudiced. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > > But thinking Boy George looks weird does not lead to violence; you're > > conflating two different things. > > I disagree. I believe that such labeling leads to or supports the kinds > of social attitudes that lead to such violence. Yes. They may be at different points on the continuum, but it's the same continuum. Better to not start down that path than to try to put on the brakes after getting into the ruts. Priscilla >> I haven't been here all that long, but it is quite apparent to me that >> Alan and Jan are not a.sholes. > I'm not saying they are, but on this issue, they're being insensitive > and hurtful and don't seem to think that matters as much as defending > their right to keep expressing those hurtful thoughts. Jan seems to > care, quite often, more for the sport of argument than for anyone else's > feelings about her argument, historically. I suspect you may be interpreting what is actually a cultural and linguistic difference in US-centric terms. Ozzies often come across as abrupt and insensitive to we Brits, and in general we're less sensitive and more direct than Americans are about how one voices opinions on these topics. In fact when reading some of what Alan and Ozgirl have posted in this thread I've found myself thinking "Well, I know what you mean, and I agree, but it's asking for trouble to say it like that with Americans listening :-)" SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] > I suspect you may be interpreting what is actually a cultural and > linguistic difference in US-centric terms. Ozzies often come across as > abrupt and insensitive to we Brits, and in general we're less > sensitive and more direct than Americans are about how one voices > opinions on these topics. This must be why my brother fits in so well in Oz. Every time he opens his mouth, someone feels hurt, insulted or wounded and he fails to see why or apologize for it. Susan Was "Re: ADA To Change Thinking On Low Carb Diets?" Changed for obvious reasons >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Susan Hello Susan Chris has explained it well. There is a cultural and linguistic divide here. You are not prepared to understand. I asked you earlier to back off. Today you repeatedly wrote about getting hot and shutting down the PC. Believe me, you aren't alone. I tried to simmer down before posting this. I failed. Now you are acting like the very wise but offended sage; forgive them because they know not what they do. With venom and outrage dripping from every word in every post I have read so far this morning from you on this subject. This is the one that went beyond the pale for me "Whether folks like Alan or Jan feel hatred isn't the issue; attitudes like theirs give succor and coverage to haters and those who commit hate crimes." I have occasionally been angered by comments directed at me here, but rarely as much as I am by that. That is a vile charge. On some other things, Susan, we have agreed. On a few we have disagreed. Bitterly. The implications of homophobia, racism and other hate issues that you have attributed to myself and Jan in this discussion have shocked me. You have no conception that there are societies which may approach issues from a different philosophical viewpoint than yours does, because of different roots and a different way of life. Because our way of seeing things does not agree with your passionate perceptions, we must be wrong. Not only that, our whole culture must be racist and homophobic. That is just plain crap. In that regard our society has faults, so does yours, and both need improvement. As does every civilised society on the planet. However, I have not noticed a rush to emigrate by our gays and non-caucasians from Sydney or Melbourne to San Francisco or Chicago. Have you? Maybe I missed the exodus. But I have no need to justify my own values nor my nation's against your preconceptions, nor does Jan. I am very comfortable with those values, as are my friends of all genders, races, orientations and nationalities. You have some major anger issues and seem to be carrying an oversized and easily dislodged chip on your shoulder. And you cannot accept, on any subject at any time, that you could possibly be mistaken. To put it bluntly in our vernacular, on this subject you are a self-righteous w.nker who is up herself. I'm sure you can find a translation somewhere on the web. If not, possibly Jan or your brother will translate for you. In case it's not obvious, the physical impossibilities implicit in that description are non-judgmental and gender-neutral. Alan, T2, Australia. In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:17:38 +1100 in Msg.# <isuok3tf0fkgf7hsv5catckaju03v7990m@4ax.com>, Alan S <loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote: > Was "Re: ADA To Change Thinking On Low Carb Diets?" > Changed for obvious reasons Susan changed it once already & someone immediately noted that they could now filter it out under the new subject line. I've not found either new subject line to be apt. And, I don't want to unnecessarily create new subject lines for people to filter. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche >In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:17:38 +1100 in Msg.# ><isuok3tf0fkgf7hsv5catckaju03v7990m@4ax.com>, Alan S [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I've not found either new subject line to be apt. And, I don't want to >unnecessarily create new subject lines for people to filter. These group seems to be a good example of warped people that are not interested in diabetes. They break their arm patting them selves on the back. It does not take long to see if a person is interested in learning about diabetes or just lost and need a bull outlet. Like pigeons they land and create a mess. Then may fly to another roost. guys@consolidated.net wrote in message ... >Like pigeons they land and create a mess. Then may fly to another >roost. Coo, coo. Cheri >guys@consolidated.net wrote in message ... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Cheri actually poo poo SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:59:06 -0600 in Msg.# > These group seems to be a good example of warped people that > are not interested in diabetes. They break their arm patting them > selves on the back. It does not take long to see if a person is > interested in learning about diabetes or just lost and need a bull > outlet. As sometimes happens, Guy, I have no idea what you're talking about in most of your posts right now. They do not track. > Like pigeons they land and create a mess. Then may fly to another > roost. No surprise, ... we disagree about people here in general. OT is OT & is accepted as such here. Plus, things that have an impact on our lives relate to 'support'. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "Your vision will become clear only when you look into your heart. Who looks outside, dreams. Who looks inside, awakens." - Carl G. Jung >>In alt.support.diabetes on Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:17:38 +1100 in Msg.# >><isuok3tf0fkgf7hsv5catckaju03v7990m@4ax.com>, Alan S [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Like pigeons they land and create a mess. Then may fly to another >roost. how dare you diabetics have anything but diabetes going in your lives, shame on you. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >>Like pigeons they land and create a mess. Then may fly to another >>roost. > >how dare you diabetics have anything but diabetes going in your lives, >shame on you. Mack, what give you the right to set around and just make smart assed remarks. I really do not care but some others do care. You can be insulting to them. You must know what I am doing. May not work well but at least I am trying. You are not helping the group . You used to be different. I do remember when you were distressed and many came to you with support. I had some negative thoughts then but did not post them. You need to think before you post. You do have great knowledge which you need to post.. Many have not been here long and might profit from them .. >>>Like pigeons they land and create a mess. Then may fly to another >>>roost. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Mack, what give you the right to set around and just make smart >assed remarks. I really do not care but some others do care. the same right that you have for doing the same thing. The only difference is, I know I am a smartass, and have not convinced myself I know what is best for everyone else. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > Because our way of seeing things does not agree with your > passionate perceptions, we must be wrong. Not only that, our > whole culture must be racist and homophobic. I'm ignoring the rest of your post because I think it was a tantrum, uncivil and grossly inaccurate. I feel no venom, though I do feel a great deal of passion on the subject of social labeling and dismissing the painful experiences of others to rationalize one's own unkindness. I have not characterized your culture nor even the two of you, I have addressed a particular attitude and behavior and the impact of them on others, and your shared blindness to the experience of others who are labeled as different. I see no reason to change that assessment, far from it after this and Jan's last post. I hope you feel better for having launched your little missile. I guess in some quarters it beats all heck out of holding your fire and pondering why so many find certain attitudes hurtful, insulting and harmful. Even if you can't figure out why, the *fact* of the harm should concern you, at the very least. I'm completely free of any concerns about what others think of me, soI welcome you to fire off any more childish schoolyard epithets that come to mind; I promise you they'll be just as easily ignored and if they make you feel that much better, keep at it. Susan "Alan S" <loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> a écrit ... > Was "Re: ADA To Change Thinking On Low Carb Diets?" > Changed for obvious reasons [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > > Alan, T2, Australia. Alan, I salute this post of yours for its restraint. If I had embarked on such a venture I am sure I would have been much more explicit and most likely not as polite. Tolerance can only go so far when ppl are in pain and they OUGHT to realise the vulgarity of their expressions and how they come across in other cultures. As for the summary, spot on. > Was "Re: ADA To Change Thinking On Low Carb Diets?" > Changed for obvious reasons [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > obvious, the physical impossibilities implicit in that > description are non-judgmental and gender-neutral. I'm thinkin' that didn't sound very nice. :( "Priscilla H. Ballou" <vze23t8n@verizon.net> wrote: > "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote: > > "Priscilla H. Ballou" <vze23t8n@verizon.net> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > This is really true. NOT an exaggeration. Some people are really > different from you and from your expectations. Really. <sigh> Back in the 1960's, I worked in a shop with an absolute flaming, swishy, queen, Bobby. He wasn't exaggerating, that was just the way he was. In the 90's, I worked with another gay guy, Chuck. He was subdued in his behavior, but not hiding in the closet. He frequently came to my wife's restaurant, after working out at the gym. If I was there, I'd sit at his table and we'd talk. He knew me from work and felt quite comfortable talking to me about his trips overseas, sometimes in detail. The behavior of most of the gays and lesbians of my acquaintance, over the last 50 years, has been nearer the subdued end of the spectrum. I've never been judgmental of their lifestyle and am honored by their trust. This thread seems to have drifted a bit. Obsession seems to fuel a lot of flame (no pun intended) wars. Oh, well. This is one way to get to know each other. ;-/ SignatureNick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families! I've known US vets who served as far back as the Spanish American War. They are all my heroes! Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~ <Moved to a better subject line.> One issue both sides have not discussed about this particular spin off is that within the gay community itself their has been an on going battle over this intolerance of effeminate males and butch females. At times it gets so bad that a clear separation of the two into various camps as it were is painfully and ridiculously obvious obvious. And comes from the misguided and sad desire of insecure gay people to fit in completely with their insecure heterosexual counterparts. And along with this butch/fem war there are 4 others that complicate the whole thing. They are Gay vs Bi. Transgendered vs non-transgendered, running hand in hand although separate cross dressers vs non-cross dressers, and Female vs male. And yes sadly within the gay community Racism is still an issue. If you want to begin to understand it start with the gay bars. In small towns/small cities with small gay populations there may be one or two gay bars, if they are lucky. When they first open these bars are not focused on any specific groups within the gay community. All types hang out together and get along well and support and friendships are strong and open, within the a close community. Over time the bars, like people and communities will change. You'll start to have male and female only nights, drag shows on specific days of the week, leather nights etc. This comes from individuals wanting to express themselves AND individuals wanting to be around people with similar interests and personalities. For the individuals this is great but it tends to fragment the community unless they have something to keep them together. This also leads to other bars with specific themes opening up to cater to specific groups. Go into any large city with a large gay community and several group specific bars. You'l find that the Lesbian bars are generally unwelcoming to gay males and the same will be true of the gay male bars. Within those two groups the bars divide again into butch or leather bars, twink or the 20s dance crowd, black clubs, country clubs, show clubs and others but you get the idea. Does it give you a headache yet? Trust me it gives gays a headache at times and is one of the reason why so many mature gays are "over the bar scene". Here's one real life example. I once rented a room to a lesbian who became one of my closest friends. We did almost everything together. Until she started dating a woman who believed that gay women and men should never interact. And I mean never. When she would come to the house to pick Jill up this woman wouldn't even cross the threshold at the door, would talk to anyone, except to ask for Jill. Now take that attitude and sprinkle it through the gay community and you'll begin to get an idea how screwed up the community can truly be at times. Two out gay men who live within walking distance of a lesbian bar can come in for drinks and literally clear the end of the bar they are sitting. The same can and does happen when drag queens and Transgenedered (they are not the same) individuals enter "butch" clubs. And in some places where there are no "black" gay clubs you can walk into clubs and literally see a clear divide in the room with white on one side and black on the other. All of this weakens and fragments the gay community and that weakness is carried out into the community at large and is picked up, mostly subconsciously and sometimes intentionally by everyone else. Real homophobes pick up on it and feed on it. Insecure individuals are the ones to be singled out and attacked the most. This insecurity is the cause for misdirected anger. Where bigotry and hostility are perceived where there is none. And this is actually what is taking place in this newsgroup right now. Don't get me wrong, the who;e gay community is not entirely screwed up over this. There are strong individuals and groups within the gay community who understand the nature of the problem and work hard to turn it into a positive and find ways to celebrate the diversity of the community. Turning a weakness into a strength. You can see these same types outside the gay community who work on race specific celebrations who fight to make the inclusive of people who are not of the race being celebrated. Of course all of this is taken into account here without any mention of the real hate groups and individual hate mongers who would tear any individual/community apart simply because they are different from the perceived "right" way of being. Those sick individuals and groups are the threat. Not someone who thinks Boy George is weird. Because the fact is, all of Boy George's weirdness is an intentional stage act. It's all for show and attention. Gays themselves think Boy George is weird. Just as they think any intentionally bad looking drag queen is weird. That doesn't mean they are actually being rejected or discriminated against. Believe it or not just as blacks make fun of and laugh at themselves for their own stereotypes so do gays. Now you want to see real hatred and prejudice check out http://www.godhatesamerica.com . That will show you real hatred and prejudice. And even they do not go as far as some hate groups and individuals will and have gone to act on the evil within their hearts and minds. -- Måck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > One issue both sides have not discussed about this particular spin off > is that within the gay community itself their has been an on going [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > individuals will and have gone to act on the evil within their hearts > and minds. A wonderful post, Mack. Just wonderful. Signaturehttp://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/ "Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> a écrit ... > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > his mouth, someone feels hurt, insulted or wounded and he fails to see why > or apologize for it. That's awfully rude of you, Susan. The way you expressed it implies you consider Austalians to be insensitive, rude brusque people. Though there are people of that nature the world over, I consider it insensitive and incorrect to stereotype all Australians in that way. > That's awfully rude of you, Susan. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Though there are people of that nature the world over, I consider it > insensitive and incorrect to stereotype all Australians in that way. Frank, maybe SOME DAY you'll post SOMETHING here about diabetes. Could happen. Susan Black people dont naturally speak ebonics and gay men dont naturally lisp...those are learned behaviours taken on because society tells them they should.. i dissagree KROM > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Susan >Black people dont naturally speak ebonics and gay men dont naturally >lisp...those are learned behaviours taken on because society tells them they >should.. >i dissagree > >KROM lisping is actually quite natural for some people. both heterosexuals and homosexuals. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >>Black people dont naturally speak ebonics and gay men dont naturally >>lisp...those are learned behaviours taken on because society tells them [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > lisping is actually quite natural for some people. both heterosexuals > and homosexuals. Especially when two front teeth are missing ;) Of course but some do it to fullfill a sterotype which i find annoying in all forms as i have said I dont see the need to perpetuate them. Very few people lisp in say 100 people how many would? The point being if a person does a thing naturally fine..but if they are playing a role i think it is silly...but that me. KROM >>Black people dont naturally speak ebonics and gay men dont naturally >>lisp...those are learned behaviours taken on because society tells them [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > lisping is actually quite natural for some people. both heterosexuals > and homosexuals. In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 05:35:29 -0600 in Msg.# > Of course but some do it to fullfill a sterotype which i find annoying in > all forms as i have said I dont see the need to perpetuate them. And, how is it that you know why some people do it? That they somehow want to fulfill some stereotype? I mean, I thought after Mack's rebuttal, that we were done with this misnomer, but apparently not. > Very few people lisp in say 100 people how many would? > The point being if a person does a thing naturally fine..but if they are > playing a role i think it is silly...but that me. I don't know the statistics but lisps and tongue thrusts are both pretty common, I believe. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel "All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become." - Buddha. Hindu Prince Gautama Siddhartha, the founder of Buddhism, 563-483 B.C. >Of course but some do it to fullfill a sterotype which i find annoying in >all forms as i have said I dont see the need to perpetuate them. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >KROM so how do you determine who is being natural and who is playing a role? SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > so how do you determine who is being natural and who is playing a > role? My question is, "why bother?" Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Susan I forget, did I ask that of you, or someone I was trying to make a point with? SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . I dont..at least unless i know them...it doesnt make me angry or anything..but i do find it annoying if a person lisps..sorta like if a person has a high squeeky voice. I have a gay friend who youd never know and one who is very loud and proud..i like them both the same and we have this discussion a few times. I dont try to change anyones behaviour i just have my personal preferences which brings us back to the begining. Oh and i do believe in trasngendered people so if a person feels they are a different gender inside..or hey if a person just likes to behave a certain way i dont care..my thoughts were about how i dont see the need or necessity for certain behaviours..if people want to cling to them it is thier world. I just know my sexuality and amount of pigment in my skin doesnt control my behaviour. KROM > so how do you determine who is being natural and who is playing a > role? >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Susan what's so unfuckingbelievable is the rapid jump to judgment. Jan is not the enemy nor is she a bigot. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/ http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:31:53 +1100 in Msg.# > <13kn0cmhf13d781@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > What makes it an act? Do you wiggle your butt and act provocatively when alone in the house? Do you do it in front of a boss or employee, the local priest? If said boss or employee complained that your hypothetical "behaviour" was sexual harassment would you still believe that kind of manner was "natural" and fight for your right to display open sexual provocation? In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:53:46 +1100 in Msg.# <13kn1ln2hg5ch8c@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote: Jan: > >> >> As I said to Priscilla, a few people I have know since they were kids > >> >> only started the mincing and affected talk in their middle to late [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Do you wiggle your butt and act provocatively when alone in the house? I guess it's according to whether I'm dancing & grooving to some great music. But, the point here is *alone*. There's no need for anyone to try to put their 'best foot out there' - in whatever way - unless there is someone present who they find attractive, all parties are available & the environment is appropriate. > Do > you do it in front of a boss or employee, the local priest? Inappropriate locales. But, those are things that are determined culturally. Has nothing to do with how someone behaves naturally when they are attracted to someone else. > If said boss or > employee complained that your hypothetical "behaviour" was sexual harassment > would you still believe that kind of manner was "natural" and fight for your > right to display open sexual provocation? Just because it's natural doesn't necessarily mean it's an appropriate time, place, etc. Do you truly not believe there is anything natural about mating behaviors? Do you think that everyone the world over who mates based on romantic love (rather than arranged marriages) is pretending to show attraction? SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "The world holds 2 classes of men: intelligent men without religion & religious men without intelligence." - Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri > In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:53:46 +1100 in Msg.# > <13kn1ln2hg5ch8c@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > present who they find attractive, all parties are available & the > environment is appropriate. In other words an act... >> Do >> you do it in front of a boss or employee, the local priest? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Do you think that everyone the world over who mates based on romantic love > (rather than arranged marriages) is pretending to show attraction? Not in the street. If I have a specific person in mind it would be a private between us game, not a free for all to see in the street. In alt.support.diabetes on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:19:33 +1100 in Msg.# <13kn3622i76n98f@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote: > > But, the point here is *alone*. There's no need for anyone to try to put > > their 'best foot out there' - in whatever way - unless there is someone > > present who they find attractive, all parties are available & the > > environment is appropriate. > > In other words an act... Uh, no, being oneself. No acting required. > >> Do you do it in front of a boss or employee, the local priest? > > > > Inappropriate locales. But, those are things that are determined > > culturally. Has nothing to do with how someone behaves naturally when they are > > attracted to someone else. And, BTW, if I were dating my local priest, my behavior toward them would naturally reflect that relationship. > >> If said boss or > >> employee complained that your hypothetical "behaviour" was sexual [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Not in the street. If I have a specific person in mind it would be a private > between us game, not a free for all to see in the street. I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense at all. If people only behaved naturally toward people who they were attracted to in private, how would they ever get into private with them in the first place? They wouldn't. But, quite frankly, I simply don't buy it that people don't *get* that straight people express their straightness constantly, day in & day out, everywhere, all the time, and that for others to express their gayness or bisexuality is JUST as natural a desire of expression. And, no, I don't know whatever in the world you're on about, but I'm not talking about some 'free for all'. To me, a 'free for all' would be an orgy. And, no one here has spoken about orgies yet until here, when you bring up 'free for alls' all of a sudden. You cannot be a fully integrated person, live in the world, and not out yourself. That's what this is about. Quite natural healthy people being themselves instead of having to hide out. SignatureDonnaB shallotpeel, T2 since June 06, USA, last HbA1c 5.3 "The UCC properly implied that millions of American Christians are at odds with the Christian Right In reality, there are no biblical literalists, only selective literalists. By abolishing slavery & ordaining women, millions of Protestants have gone far beyond biblical literalism." - William Sloane Coffin "DonnaB shallotpeel" <shallotpeel@comcast.net> wrote in message Me: >> Not in the street. If I have a specific person in mind it would be a private >> between us game, not a free for all to see in the street. > > I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense at all. If people only > behaved > naturally toward people who they were attracted to in private, how would > they ever get into private with them in the first place? They wouldn't. If I have a specific person in mind it would be a private "between us" game, not a "free for all to see" (game) in the street. Have you not met a person in a crowd and started talking to them and eventually getting around to arranging a date without wiggling a bum or stick boobs in their face? I don't feel the need to act like a bitch on heat. I usually find that I am talking to someone before feeling the attraction and often find common interests while chatting which eventually lead to one or the other suggesting meeting up again. > You cannot be a fully integrated person, live in the world, and not out > yourself. That's what this is about. Quite natural healthy people being > themselves instead of having to hide out. I don't hide out, I have no need to hide out but I also have no need to have a public "outing" or flaunt myself. Just because there are tools of trade doesn't mean one has to use them. Quite frankly I would be rather disappointed in myself if I had to resort to play-acting to attract someone (and let's face it, the so called mating game is play-acting). If I can't attract someone by being myself then something is badly wrong. WYSIWYG with me. >"DonnaB shallotpeel" <shallotpeel@comcast.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >in a crowd and started talking to them and eventually getting around to >arranging a date without wiggling a bum or stick boobs in their face? do you honestly think they didn't look at your boobs and your bum before agreeing to it? >I don't feel the need to act like a bitch on heat. I usually find that I am >talking to someone before feeling the attraction and often find common >interests while chatting which eventually lead to one or the other >suggesting meeting up again. now we are discussing the differences that maturity brings in dating compared to the inexperience of youth. >> You cannot be a fully integrated person, live in the world, and not out >> yourself. That's what this is about. Quite natural healthy people being [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >attract someone by being myself then something is badly wrong. WYSIWYG with >me. WYSIWYG is only the beginning of what you get with those whose behavior is not as mature as yours when it comes to the mating game. Thank God. It makes it so fun and interesting. Signature |
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