Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / August 2007
Iron in Diabetes Development
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ironjustice@aol.com - 13 Aug 2007 09:45 GMT <<snip>> Elevated iron stores, reflected in elevated plasma ferritin levels, may induce baseline metabolic abnormalities that ultimately result in diabetes. <<snip>>
Am J Epidemiol. 2007 May 1;165(9):1047-54. Epub 2007 Feb 6. Links A prospective study of plasma ferritin level and incident diabetes: the Atherosclerosis Risk in Communities (ARIC) Study. Jehn ML, Guallar E, Clark JM, Couper D, Duncan BB, Ballantyne CM, Hoogeveen RC, Harris ZL, Pankow JS. Department of Epidemiology, Welch Center for Prevention, Epidemiology, and Clinical Research, Bloomberg School of Public Health, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD 21205, USA.
The authors performed a case-cohort study nested within the Atherosclerosis Risk in Communities (ARIC) Study to determine the association between plasma ferritin level and risk of type 2 diabetes mellitus. Persons with incident cases of type 2 diabetes diagnosed over an average follow-up period of 7.9 years (n = 599) were compared with a random sample of the cohort (n = 690). After adjustment for age, gender, menopausal status, ethnicity, center, smoking, and alcohol intake, the hazard ratio for diabetes, comparing the fifth quintile of ferritin with the first quintile, was 1.74 (95% confidence interval: 1.14, 2.65; p-trend < 0.001). After further adjustment for body mass index and components of the metabolic syndrome, the hazard ratio was 0.81 (95% confidence interval: 0.49, 1.34; p-trend = 0.87).
>From a causal perspective, there are two alternative interpretations of these findings. Elevated iron stores, reflected in elevated plasma ferritin levels, may induce baseline metabolic abnormalities that ultimately result in diabetes. Alternatively, elevated ferritin may be just one of several metabolic abnormalities related to the underlying process that ultimately results in diabetes, rather than a causal factor for diabetes. Longitudinal studies with repeated measurements of glucose and iron metabolism parameters are needed to establish the role of iron stores and plasma ferritin in diabetes development.
PMID: 17284722 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Who loves ya. Tom
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ferrous@paris.com - 13 Aug 2007 14:38 GMT From the abstract:
">From a causal perspective, there are two alternative interpretations of these findings. Elevated iron stores, reflected in elevated plasma ferritin levels, may induce baseline metabolic abnormalities that ultimately result in diabetes. Alternatively, elevated ferritin may be just one of several metabolic abnormalities related to the underlying process that ultimately results in diabetes, rather than a causal factor for diabetes. Longitudinal studies with repeated measurements of glucose and iron metabolism parameters are needed to establish the role of iron stores and plasma ferritin in diabetes development."
This has always been a problem, it is the tail and dog story again and again. One additional way to test the idea is to see where nature has already done an experiment involving iron levels and rate of diabetes.
In india iron levels are among the world's lowest but the rate of diabetes is the highest. This change to high diabetes rate has occured with no large increase in dietary iron intake.
The results of this experiment steers the possible relationship toward iron levels in blood becoming elevated post diabetes as inflamation increases. In fact one would have first to show that even in indian diabetes that iron levels are high as compared to other places where stored iron is higher.
Jesus ate a mediterranean diet.
ironjustice@aol.com - 13 Aug 2007 18:10 GMT On Aug 13, 6:38 am, ferr...@paris.com wrote: This has always been a problem, it is the tail and dog story again and again. One additional way to test the idea is to see where nature has already done an experiment involving iron levels and rate of diabetes. <<
Actually the **one** way IS being tested ..
It is called .. "iron depletion in diabetes" ..
It is a clinical trial ..
They are testing the results of lowering iron levels in the body ..
They believe this is a method of treating the patients for their diabetes ..
You haven't heard about the study .. ?
It is recruiting over 4000 people.
It is a mult-million dollar study ..
That is a very large study ..
I tell you what ..
YOU .. dig up a hypothesis .. YOU .. push it for over ten years .. and then YOU can sit back and wait for the study to be .. finished ..
THEN .. you can be sure whether or not your hypothesis holds water ..
But .. first .. **first** .. YOU .. have to come UP .. with .. a .. **hypothesis** ..
Of course we both KNOW .. that .. will not .. happen ..
Don't we ..
Because .. ?
You couldn't come up with an original thought if your life .. **depended** .. on .. it ..
Heh .. heh ..
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
ferrous@paris.com - 13 Aug 2007 19:22 GMT "Actually the **one** way IS being tested ..
It is called .. "iron depletion in diabetes" ..
It is a clinical trial ..
They are testing the results of lowering iron levels in the body ..
They believe this is a method of treating the patients for their diabetes .."
Sorry, this is not a test of the point made in the original abstract. It made the clear point, and one I have made often to you, that we can not know now if iron levels preceed diabetes or iron blood levels follow diabetes. It is the dog and tail story which you like to ignore but will not go away any time soon.
In the india natural expiriment low iron preceeds diabetes, the highest diabetes rate in the world.
ironjustice@aol.com - 13 Aug 2007 19:41 GMT On Aug 13, 11:22 am, ferr...@paris.com wrote: Sorry, this is not a test of the point made in the original abstract. It made the clear point, <<
Yes .. the CLEAR .. **point** .. IS .. "elevated iron levels in those with diabetes" ..
THAT was WHY they .. **did** the study ..
They **DID** the study .. **specifically** .. to COMPARE .. the ..**iron** / ferritin .. **iron** / ferritin .. **iron** / ferritin .. **stores** / ferritin ..
You disagree they .. **specifically** DID the study .. TO .. assess iron .. **stores** / ferritin .. ?
You WOULD disagree .. becauuuuse .. you have been shown to BE .. what .. ?
What have you been shown TO .. be .. ?
Stupid .. ?
I think that was it ..
I may have to go back in this thread .. TO .. verify that .. fact ..
But I am pretty sure it was .. stupidity ..
"to determine the association between plasma ferritin level and risk of type 2 diabetes mellitus"
Yep .. confirmed ..
The study WAS .. done .. **specifically** .. to SEE .. **specifically** .. about .. the .. **iron** .. stores .. and its' .. **relation TO** .. type two diabetes ..
**STUPIDITY**
You should actually find another line of work ..
You are too stupid for the one you have chosen ..
And THAT is .. remarkable ..
<<snip>> Elevated iron stores, reflected in elevated plasma ferritin levels, may induce baseline metabolic abnormalities that ultimately result in diabetes. <<snip>>
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
ferrous@paris.com - 13 Aug 2007 23:13 GMT The original abstract make he clear point that they could not know if iron preceeds diabetes as a cause or if iron levels in the blood increase as a result of diabetes.
In india low iron stores goes with the wrold's highest rate of diabetes. That would tend to answer that question.
Jesus ate a mediterranean diet.
ironjustice - 14 Aug 2007 02:59 GMT >> On Aug 13, 3:13 pm, ferr...@paris.com wrote: In india low iron stores goes with the wrold's highest rate of diabetes. << I don't believe you ..
Give a citation ..
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
ferrous@paris.com - 14 Aug 2007 16:06 GMT India as world's leader in diabetes
http://aadi.joslin.harvard.edu/intro/intro_asian_epidemic.asp
Iron levels in indians low compared to others
http://www.archive.official-documents.co.uk/document/doh/survey99/hse99-10.htm
Not only is the diabetes highest in india and indians have a low iron rate, but within india those who eat meat more often have a lower diabetes rate. More muslims with no cultural restraint on meat consumption live in north india on the whole and many fewer in south india who are more often hindu and do have such a restraint. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/553890_4
Jesus ate a mediterranean diet.
ironjustice - 14 Aug 2007 18:51 GMT >> On Aug 14, 8:06 am, ferr...@paris.com wrote: India as world's leader in diabetes http://aadi.joslin.harvard.edu/intro/intro_asian_epidemic.asp <<
Anything from Joslin is suspect. I personally corresponded with them over five years ago and when questioned about iron in diabetes .. they had no idea .. iron was involved.
Therefore .. leaving .. them .. wanting.
>> Iron levels in indians low compared to others http://www.archive.official-documents.co.uk/document/doh/survey99/hse... <<
Seems your research / data mining is kind of .. wrong.
<<snip>> Low anemia <<snip>>
Eur J Clin Nutr. 2007 Jul;61(7):865-9. Epub 2007 Jan 24. Related Articles, Links
Low anemia prevalence in school-aged children in Bangalore, South India: possible effect of school health initiatives.
Muthayya S, Thankachan P, Zimmermann MB, Andersson M, Eilander A, Misquith D, Hurrell RF, Kurpad AV.
Division of Nutrition, St John's Research Institute, St John's National Academy of Health Sciences, Bangalore, India. sumithra@iphcr.res.in
OBJECTIVE: Anemia is a serious public health problem in Indian school children. Since 2003, simple health intervention programs such as antihelminthic treatment and vitamin A supplementation have been implemented in primary schools in the Bangalore region, Karnataka, India. This study examines the prevalence of anemia in school children who are beneficiaries of this program. DESIGN: Cross-sectional survey. SETTING: Bangalore district, South India. SUBJECTS: A total of 2,030 boys and girls, aged 5-15 years, attending schools in the Bangalore district. INTERVENTIONS: School-based, twice yearly intervention: deworming (albendazole 400 mg, single oral dose) and vitamin A supplementation (200,000 IU, single oral dose). MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Anemia prevalence based on measure of blood hemoglobin (Hb). RESULTS: Mean age and blood Hb concentration of all children were 9.5+/-2.6 years and 12.6+/-1.1 g/dl (range 5.6-16.7), respectively. The overall anemia prevalence in this group was 13.6%. Anemia prevalence was lower in boys than girls (12.0%; n=1037 vs 15.3%; n=993 respectively, P<0.05). There was no significant difference in anemia prevalence between children in urban and rural locations (14.6 and 12.3%, respectively). CONCLUSIONS: The current low anemia prevalence in Bangalore could be due to the impact of school-based intervention programs that have been in place since 2003. The beneficial interactions of deworming and vitamin A supplementation could have widespread implications for current preventive public health initiatives. There is now need for the development of clear policy guidelines based on these simple and integrated interventions.
Publication Types: Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't
PMID: 17251926 [PubMed - in process]
>> indians have a low iron rate, << See above .. you are wrong.
>>but within india those who eat meat more often have a lower diabetes rate. <<
This says meat eating / non-vegetarian dietary habit causes diabetes .. NOT the other way around ..
Makes one wonder whether you are doctoring studies .. AGAIN ,,
<<snip>> non-vegetarian dietary habit <<snip>>
Study of risk factors of diabetes Mellitus
Banerjee P; Ghosh MM; Biswas R; Bhattacharya SK Department of Community Medicine, R.G. Medical College, Calcutta Study of risk factors of diabetes Mellitus Indian Journal of Community Medicine. 1993 Jan-Mar; 18(1): 48-50 ABSTRACT: A case control study of risk factors of Diabetes Mellitus was carried out among 75 diabetic cases attending the clinic, and an equal number of matched controls from inpatients of the Surgical department of R.G. Kar Medical College, Calcutta. Diabetes Mellitus was found significantly higher among those persons having family history of similar illness belonging to the socio-economic class (Kuppuswami's classification) and non-vegetarian dietary habit. KEYWORDS: Diabetes Mellitus/CO; Diabetes Mellitus/DT; Diabetes Mellitus, Non- Insulin Dependent; Diabetes Mellitus, Insulin Dependent; case-control study; Risk factors; Weight and Measures; Blood Pressure/PC; Statistical Distribution; Human References: 8 Record Identifier: NI202361
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
ferrous@paris.com - 14 Aug 2007 19:48 GMT > India as world's leader in diabetes > http://aadi.joslin.harvard.edu/intro/intro_asian_epidemic.asp << "Anything from Joslin is suspect."
Your opinion irrelevant. The chart and numbers showing that india tops the 5 highest nations with diabetes was from the International Diabetes Federation, you need to read more carefully, if you read it at all.
No doubt when you approached joslin with your iron causes all disease because people eat meat notion you got the appropriate response.
> Iron levels in indians low compared to others
>http://www.archive.official-documents.co.uk/document/doh/survey99/hse... "Seems your research / data mining is kind of .. wrong."
From the article which of course you did not read:
Compared with the general population, the proportion of people with low ferritin (with levels in the bottom quintile of the general population) was significantly higher among Indian and Pakistani men and among Indian, Pakistani and Bangladeshi women. In these three groups the proportion with low ferritin was higher than 40%, and their age-standardised risk ratios were significantly higher than 1.
And to mention again, within india the area with the most meat eaters has the lowest diabetes and the one with the least meat eating the highest. Of course you did not read that article either.
So, the natural experiment to test your notion that is india shows:
1. Low iron
2. highest diabetes
3. highest coordinated with not eating meat.
4. the increase in diabetes and the related heart disease etc. found in india did not occur with increases in meat eating.
5. the universal notion that people get all diseases because they eat meat can be tossed. For such universal notions when asserted it takes only one counter example to toss it. India is that example.
Jesus ate a mediterranean diet.
ironjustice - 14 Aug 2007 21:33 GMT >> On Aug 14, 11:48 am, ferr...@paris.com wrote: Of course you did not read that article either. <<
Of course I am .. going TO .. read an article placed by .. YOU .. ?
I placed COUNTER articles which showed .. you AND Joslin to BE .. wrong ..
You .. AND .. Joslin ..
Joslin .. evidence based .. MISSED .. the iron .. for over seventy years .. BUT .. now .. their iron studies are TO BE .. accepted and admired and used IN scientific .. debate .. ?
You .. lie .. falsify medical studies .. and .. stalk ..
Now WHY should I believe you or Joslin .. ?
THAT would be .. stupid ..
And if you haven't noticed by NOW .. boy ..
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
ferrous@paris.com - 14 Aug 2007 21:56 GMT A natural test of the iron causes all disease because people eat meat notion has been done.
India has highest diabetes and associated heart disease etc. related rate. India has low iron. The north of india with most meat eaters has lower rate then the south of india with more non meat eaters. The rate in india in recent decades has gone up, the intake of meat has not accordingly while other known diabetes risk factors have increased.
When a universal notion with no exceptions is asserted it takes only one counter example to toss that notion. India is that one example. This is not to say there are not other such tests, but we need only one.
Iron has not been shown to be the cause of all disease because people eat meat. Like almost any other substance, iron in excess can be toxic in specific contexts. Iron is an absolutly required mineral for human, and most other, life. Low iron levels is the world's number one public health problem especially among children and women. It can cause life long problems.
Jesus ate a mediterranean diet.
ironjustice - 14 Aug 2007 22:12 GMT >> On Aug 14, 1:56 pm, ferr...@paris.com wrote: India has low iron. <<
You have been unable to prove this .. hypothesis .. see **supplied** COUNTER .. article .. "low anemia in South Indian children" ..
But you STILL .. continue .. to attempt to use this as a part of some .. hypothesis .. ?
What IS .. your .. hypothesis .. ?
Low iron .. causes diabetes .. ?
How is the malaria in .. India .. ?
Do you think .. malaria .. screws the .. numbers .. ?
Would malaria show .. low iron .. WHEN in fact .. there IS .. iron .. ?
Does it .. ?
Does .. iron / ferritin .. FALSELY .. read .. WHEN .. malaria is .. present .. ?
Can .. ferritin BE .. **relied** .. upon .. ?
Malaria .. GIVES .. false readings.
You should KNOW that IF you are .. building a .. hypothesis ..
If you don't KNOW that .. you would be caught with your pants down ..
Oh .. yeah .. THAT is one of your .. claims to fame ..
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
ferrous@paris.com - 14 Aug 2007 23:05 GMT > India has low iron. "You have been unable to prove this .. hypothesis .. see **supplied** COUNTER .. article .. "low anemia in South Indian children" .."
The data to which you were pointed and did not read was comparing populations of indians and other s. asians to populations of people from other places in the world. Your example does not do this. Your example does not even ask this question to compare that group of indians with other similar populations of the world. To say "low" or "high" is relative to some reference among populations.
"Does .. iron / ferritin .. FALSELY .. read .. WHEN .. malaria is .. present .. ?"
This is irrelevant to the research given you as all the populations from various countries were in an area with no malaria. You would have known this had you read it.
...***INDIA***...
The test has been done, the results are in, the notion that iron causes all disease because people eat meat has been soundly refuted. When an universal assertion such as that notion is made it requires only one counter example to toss, it be tossed.
Jesus ate a mediterranean diet.
ironjustice - 15 Aug 2007 02:37 GMT On Aug 14, 3:05 pm, ferr...@paris.com wrote: as all the populations from various countries were in an area with no malaria. You would have known this had you read it. <<
Well using .. intelligence .....***INDIA***... has malaria.
You found a part of India that .. doesn't have .. malaria .. ?
>> The test has been done, the results are in, << Highest diabetes in those with elevated iron .. Asians .. HAVE .. elevated iron.
Asians don't have elevated iron .. ? http://tinyurl.com/2qtocp
I believe I posted that .. they DO .. **have** .. elevated / increased iron ..
http://tinyurl.com/2qtocp
MORE than .. anyone .. **anyone** .. but YOU .. have run across a study which says they .. don't .. ?
Surprise .. surprise ..
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
ferrous@paris.com - 15 Aug 2007 13:54 GMT Indians have low iron as a population compared to other populations of the world. Indians have the number one rate of diabetes. Diabetes rate is lower in area of more meat eaters in india and higher in fewer meat eaters. The increase in diabetes in india did not match an increase in meat intake.
All of the objections raised are irrelevant as it shows the articles provided were not read which show above.
The results are in from this natural test of the iron causes all disease because people eat meat notion, it be tossed.
Jesus ate a mediterranean diet.
ironjustice - 14 Aug 2007 22:00 GMT Joslins' REAL leading edge .. grade school research.
"Brown fat / good .. white fat / bad."
Joslin study reveals how a specific fat type can protect against weight gain and diabetes Submitted by News on 1 March 2007 - 3:00am. Research 2 peers
A new study from Joslin Diabetes Center may shed light on why some people can eat excessive amounts of food and not gain weight or develop type 2 diabetes, while others are more likely to develop obesity and this most common form of diabetes on any diet. The study, which used two strains of mice with differing tendencies to gain weight and develop diabetes on a high-fat diet, identified genetic and cellular mechanisms that may prevent certain mice on a calorie-dense diet from gaining weight and developing metabolic syndrome.
"Although this study was done with mice, it points out new mechanisms that may underlie the ability of genetically different mice -- and perhaps genetically different people -- to not gain much weight on high caloric diets," said lead investigator C. Ronald Kahn, M.D., an internationally recognized researcher who is Head of Joslin's Section on Obesity and Hormone Action and the Mary K. Iacocca Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School.
The study, published in the online edition of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences on Feb. 5-9, builds upon years of research at Joslin and elsewhere on energy metabolism and the genetics of fat cells.
It has long been known that people significantly differ in their tendency to gain weight and develop metabolic syndrome, a group of conditions including hypertension, abdominal obesity, high triglycerides and glucose intolerance that can lead to type 2 diabetes. More than 60 million Americans either are obese or have metabolic syndrome, putting them at risk for type 2 diabetes and its frequent complications, including cardiovascular disease and other serious conditions. Currently 21 million Americans have diabetes and approximately one-third of them do not even know they have the disease. Formerly known as adult-onset diabetes, type 2 diabetes is occurring more frequently in young adults and even children.
Previous studies at Joslin and elsewhere have uncovered the differing functions of the two types of body fat-white and brown. White fat, the more familiar form of fat that accumulates in the abdomen, thighs, buttocks and under the skin, stores energy for future needs, whereas brown fat or brown adipose tissue (BAT) burns energy and generates heat.
White fat, which is packed with large lipid droplets, is deposited under the skin, around internal organs and as visceral fat - one of the most harmful forms of abdominal fat. Brown fat, on the other hand, contains small lipid droplets tucked behind tiny energy factories called mitochondria. These cells are most prevalent in the necks of infants and between the shoulder blades in mice to help their bodies generate heat, but tend to mostly disappear by adulthood. A 2005 Joslin study by Dr. Kahn and his colleagues discovered genes that control the creation of the precursor cells that give rise to brown fat cells. This latest study shows that brown fat may not disappear in all adult animals and that little collections of brown fat may account for why some mice are protected from obesity and diabetes and others are not.
This study began by exploring differences in basal energy expenditure (the amount of energy required to maintain the body's normal metabolic activity, such as respiration and maintenance of body temperature) and its role in the development of obesity and metabolic syndrome in two different genetic strains of mice: the B6 mouse and the 129 mouse. The B6 mouse is one of the most commonly used strains in metabolic research and an established model for diet-induced obesity.
When placed on a high-fat diet, the B6 mouse develops severe obesity, high blood glucose and insulin resistance with extremely high insulin levels. By contrast, the 129 mouse gains on average 30 to 50 percent less weight on either a high-or low-fat diet than the B6 mouse and has been considered resistant to dietary induced obesity and glucose intolerance. In the new study, Dr. Kahn and his colleagues showed that this difference is due to the higher basal energy expenditure in the 129 mouse. When searching for the source of the energy expenditure, the researchers found unexpected clusters of brown fat cells stuck between bundles of muscle fibers in the leg of the mouse. In this case, the 129 mouse had over 100 times more brown fat in muscle than the B6 mouse.
"This site of brown fat was previously unrecognized and is certainly one of the reasons for the differences in energy expenditure between strains of mice. Now we need to see if the same is true for humans and if this could account for why some people gain weight easily and others seem to be protected against weight gain and metabolic syndrome that can lead to type 2 diabetes," Dr. Kahn said. "Finding drugs that stimulate the amount or activity of this brown fat could also lead to a new therapy for obesity and prevention of diabetes."
Written from a news release by Joslin Diabetes Center.
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This was known long before .. Joslin ..
http://tinyurl.com/3y7fyr
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
ferrous@paris.com - 14 Aug 2007 23:32 GMT "Written from a news release by Joslin Diabetes Center.
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This was known long before .. Joslin ..
http://tinyurl.com/3y7fyr "
Had you even a minimal grasp of how science is conducted you would have known that research is often repeated as confirmation of what others have done or to show it has problems. It also happens because it might be research done in a different way with similar results. The odds are very high that any previous similar research to which you might point will also be among the references listed in their article when published in a journal.
A quick look at the above link seems to have little to do with the news item, the only common topic brown fat which they are in no way claiming this research was the first to deal with it.
Jesus ate a mediterranean diet.
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