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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / August 2007Insulin and bg math
Some folks here like to model the body and bg's analytically/ mathematically. Here's a silly question: I find that one unit of insulin lowers my bg about 30 mg/dl. I take about 40 units of insulin a day. (Based on what I've read, the numbers above put me at the more- sensitive-to-insulin end of the scale for a Type 1 with a weight of 80- something kg. I know I've seen other Type 1's here post numbers that make them sound even more sensitive than me!) Does this mean, that if for some reason I missed a day's worth of shots, that my bg would be up 30 times 40, or 1200 mg/dl, over it's nominal value of 100mg/dl? That would make it 1300mg/dl. Or do nonlinearities start kicking in that would make my bg rise be less or more? I know the kidneys start spilling sugar around 180mg/dl, but they wouldn't be able to hardly be able to keep up for very long, right? After 3 days, would I be at 3700? More than half my insulin use is the long-lasting stuff for a basal, so even if I starved myself I would still see more than half this rise, I think. Right? Tim. > Some folks here like to model the body and bg's analytically/ > mathematically. Here's a silly question: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > 1) Your math is a bit simplistic - Insulin does NOT control BG - it is three steps away from it, so the result s what is known as a "chaotic" model, NOT a linear model (which you are using) 2) Even ignoring "chaotic" results, the type of curvr which you would het would not be linear, but either Perl-Voszhted, or Poisson, We use linear methods to solve our BG problem in what is called "Newton's Method". SO, if my BG is 200, I take 25 units of Insulin. I get a result probably between 70 and 150 (usually close to 100) THEN, if high, I take more insulin, and, again until I get in the 75-110 range. As a T2, I am more variable than you. 3) You will never have a BG much over 500 for any length of time. - you will be dead > 3) You will never have a BG much over 500 for any length of time. - you > will be dead I met a type II diabetic recently who told me that she had her blood sugars running at about 600 level for several years. She did not die, but has horrible neuropathy now. Her feet are totally numb, but she has the pain from it way up in her thighs. KC | > 3) You will never have a BG much over 500 for any length of time. - you | > will be dead [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] | | KC that is the difference between t1's and t2's. t1's cannot go very long without insulin, where t2's can run years at high glucose and continue to live. it's also doubtful the person was in the 600's for years. first off meters don't go higher then 600 and no medical person would allow someone with a lab of 600 to continue running that high. >| > 3) You will never have a BG much over 500 for any length of time. - >you [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >then 600 and no medical person would allow someone with a lab of 600 to >continue running that high. personnel cannot force an adult to do a damn thing against their will. nor can they make the individual do something when they have no money to pay for ongoing care and are dependent on the limited funds of a charity. as was my case.  SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > > 3) You will never have a BG much over 500 for any length of time. - you > > will be dead [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > horrible neuropathy now. Her feet are totally numb, but she has the pain > from it way up in her thighs. Not that I understand Type II very well, but... what stopped her from going above 600? Since she was Type II presumably she had some insulin but not enough. But if I have not enough insulin, my bg just goes up. Not "up to some high number", but up, no matter how high I already am. You will remember that I'm the guy who asks stupid questions like "What's a spike?". My bg, without constant measurement and adjustment of meals/doses/ exercise, does not naturally tend towards any number. It naturally goes up without insulin, goes down with too much insulin, and if I try very hard it stays in a sweet spot of, say, 60-140 but only with very concerted effort and some luck. Tim. > > Some folks here like to model the body and bg's analytically/ > > mathematically. Here's a silly question: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > three steps away from it, so the result s what is known as a "chaotic" > model, NOT a linear model (which you are using) Yes, obviously I'm using a linear model. It's also pretty obvious that at some point the model breaks down badly. If my insulin - along with meal planning, exercise, constant bg measurements, etc. doesn't control my BG, then what does? I will agree that just one of those 4 factors is not nearly enough to get control. Two of those 4 factors won't get me any control either. It takes at least 3 or preferably 4 to get any semblance of control. > 2) Even ignoring "chaotic" results, the type of curvr which you would > het would not be linear, but either Perl-Voszhted, or Poisson, We use [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I take more insulin, and, again until I get in the 75-110 range. As a > T2, I am more variable than you. I resolved a while ago to not play "my diabetes is bigger than your diabetes", but since you brought it up, how many times/weeks have you been in the ER for DKA or hypos? > 3) You will never have a BG much over 500 for any length of time. - you > will be dead- I've been in the 300-400-500 region for a few days at a time, usually as a result of a pretty serious illness (chicken pox was hell for me when I was in college. Sometimes looking back I'm surprised I survived it without hospitalization. Realistically I should've been in the hospital.) Tim. >1) Your math is a bit simplistic - Insulin does NOT control BG - it is >three steps away from it, so the result s what is known as a "chaotic" [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I take more insulin, and, again until I get in the 75-110 range. As a >T2, I am more variable than you. A type 1s math can be exceedingly simplistic, and work perfectly. We normally deal with little to no insulin resistance. Our insulin ratios are very easily calculated. As I have done in the past, I suggest reading the how to section at the insulin pumper's website concerning insulin ratios. The same methods apply even if not pumping. >3) You will never have a BG much over 500 for any length of time. - you >will be dead I do not know where you got this info from but it is wrong. The human body can live a very long time with BGs in excess of 500 mg/dl. I know first hand. It took me more than a year to get my BG below 800 when I was making a certain lifestyle change back in the 90s. I am not saying the body is not damaged and that eventually it will not fail. But it can survive long term with BGs in excess of 500. And I know of others who were diagnosed with BGs in the 1000 + range and did not know how long they were that high. And they were both type 1s and type 2s. A few of them have even posted here. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . On Jul 31, 2:58 pm, M?ck?? <tro...@renotworthsaving.net> wrote: > A type 1s math can be exceedingly simplistic, and work perfectly. We > normally deal with little to no insulin resistance. True there is little to no resistance, but even then I know I need more insulin in the early morning hours (dawn phenomena) and I also know that when I take a shot that it won't be absorbed at the same rate every single time. This makes it not "work perfectly" as simple math might allow. If it always worked perfectly I wouldn't have made a couple of ER trips over the years! > know first hand. It took me more than a year to get my BG below 800 > when I was making a certain lifestyle change back in the 90s. If you don't mind me asking, Mac, what caused it to seemingly self- regulate somewhere above the 800 level? I don't make regular excursions there, but in my more limited excursions it seems to me like "not enough insulin" always means that my bg goes up and up and that there is no upper limit where it would stop. > And I know of others who were diagnosed with BGs in the 1000 + range > and did not know how long they were that high. And they were both > type 1s and type 2s. A few of them have even posted here. I was in the 1000+ range at diagnosis but hadn't been there more than a few weeks (maybe even less than a week). Tim. >> A type 1s math can be exceedingly simplistic, and work perfectly. We >> normally deal with little to no insulin resistance. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >always worked perfectly I wouldn't have made a couple of ER trips over >the years! No one said that each individual would not react differently to it. It is common knowledge that our bodies will have different insulin ratios at different times of the day. That has been discussed in here many times. However even if you drew back plunger and saw no blood, there is not enough data in what you have said to discuss the ER issue in depth. We also don't know what you actually ate those days. however those of us who pump prove that the simple math does work. And we do take into account varying needs / changing ratios throughout the day. >> know first hand. It took me more than a year to get my BG below 800 >> when I was making a certain lifestyle change back in the 90s. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >like "not enough insulin" always means that my bg goes up and up and >that there is no upper limit where it would stop. not enough insulin was a part of it, heavy chemical enhancement was another. The reason I know it was in the 800 range that long was because I was in a halfway house during that period and was being sent by them to the Endo at the local medical college for care. You have no idea what it's like to have readings on your meter that 9 times out of 10 simply said HI. And then when you actually start getting your numbers down you have trouble with hypo symptoms even though the meter says 400, 500 etc. It's amazes me still that I never passed out during that time period. >> And I know of others who were diagnosed with BGs in the 1000 + range >> and did not know how long they were that high. And they were both [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Tim. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . 1700 is the highest BG level I've heard of in a live person, so I don't think it's linear like that. KC > Some folks here like to model the body and bg's analytically/ > mathematically. Here's a silly question: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Tim. > 1700 is the highest BG level I've heard of in a live person, so I don't > think it's linear like that. I agree that it's probably not linear. I was purposely taking the proportional-control model and pushing it way past its limits in the hope of provoking discussion. But other than the kidneys spilling sugar, I don't know what mechanism (other than death) would stop it from climbing forever. Tim. >Some folks here like to model the body and bg's analytically/ >mathematically. Here's a silly question: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >I know the kidneys start spilling sugar around 180mg/dl, but they >wouldn't be able to hardly be able to keep up for very long, right? Correct. >After 3 days, would I be at 3700? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Tim. zero insulin for 3 days as a type 1 would land you unconscious in DKA near death, IF your were lucky. And your BG would not have to reach numbers in the 3000 range. Not even 2/3s that. Without insulin, you are not dealing with just a simple rise in BG. thing of a system with multiple functions that start to fail in sequence. But instead of simple shutting down, they malfunction, the malfunctions compound each other(make each worse) then the entire system shuts down suddenly. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . "Måck©®" <trolls@renotworthsaving.net> wrote in message > zero insulin for 3 days as a type 1 would land you unconscious in DKA > near death, IF your were lucky. And your BG would not have to reach [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > malfunctions compound each other(make each worse) then the entire > system shuts down suddenly. I did read a story before of a man who got type I diabetes before the discovery of insulin, and he lasted for several years on a starvation diet, and then was able to start insulin when it became available and live many more years. Perhaps he was in the honeymoon phase though. KC > "Måck©®" <trolls@renotworthsaving.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > I don't know the details, but I do know that pre-Banting, T1's DID survive for a few years on starvation diets. >I don't know the details, but I do know that pre-Banting, T1's DID >survive for a few years on starvation diets. There was a documentary about that a couple of years ago on PBS, as I recall.... A horrific time filled with hope. Will, T2 >>I don't know the details, but I do know that pre-Banting, T1's DID >>survive for a few years on starvation diets. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Will, T2 what were their ages? SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > probably young - in those days, only juvinile diabetes was recognized >>>I don't know the details, but I do know that pre-Banting, T1's DID >>>survive for a few years on starvation diets. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >what were their ages? As I recall, they were mostly 12-16 yrs old.... One of the first young people who ever used insulin lived to about 76. Will, T2 |
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