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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / August 2007Diabetic women at a higher risk of dying
A recent cohort study using NHANES I,II, and III data has unearthed what seems to be a very disturbing trend for diabetic women. To be published in the August 7th issue of the Annals of Internal Medicine. The researchers looked at data from 3 different national surveys (about 20000 people) that took place in 1971 -1974, 1976 - 1980 and 1988 - 1994. They asked people whether they had diabetes or not and then followed them for up to 12 yrs to see who was still living and who had died. They also looked at causes of death and compared data from all groups. They found that overall death rates among the general population (with and without diabetes) had decreased by about 42% from 1971 to 2000. Death from heart disease decreased at a similar rate. Men with diabetes experienced a drop in death rate from all causes and from heart disease similar to the general population. For diabetic women, however, the death rate DOUBLED from 1971 to 2000, when compared to nondiabetic women! Death from heart disease did not change significantly (as opposed to the significant decrease in everyone else). Now, we have to figure out the real reason for this trend. Regardless of the limitations of this cohort study, the difference in trends is alarming, IMO. Probable causes: - Diabetic women are less likely to receive appropriate care (as suggested by an analysis of HEDIS data from 2005--this analysis suggests that physicians do a poor job modifying cardiovascular risk in women) - Hormones? Much can be speculated. -What else? Some food for thought, especially for the women in the group. > A recent cohort study using NHANES I,II, and III data has unearthed > what seems to be a very disturbing trend for diabetic women. To be [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Some food for thought, especially for the women in the group. Thanks, Glass... Now, that was an interesting post. Will, T2 >A recent cohort study using NHANES I,II, and III data has unearthed > what seems to be a very disturbing trend for diabetic women. To be [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Some food for thought, especially for the women in the group. Thanks for the article. I especially liked the part where you said, "My mission is simple. Help answer questions about Diabetes and share experiences. Hope this little pep talk sparks something in you that will push you towards the lifestyle modification needed to control this disease." Please, I've asked you 4 times how we can get your book. I've got the money, really. John On Jul 30, 9:18 pm, "johnniemccoy@" <johnniemc...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote: > >A recent cohort study using NHANES I,II, and III data has unearthed > > what seems to be a very disturbing trend for diabetic women. To be [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Any ideas about this health disparity? Why are diabetic women being left behind? BTW, if I had to sell a book, I would want millions of sales and this would not be the place to pitch it. I would try Oprah! lol. "glass318" <glass318@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Any ideas about this health disparity? Why are diabetic women being > left behind? Only the ugly ones. John ... and then, there's alcohol ... "johnniemccoy@" <johnniemccoy@NOSPAMhotmail.com> a écrit ... > "glass318" <glass318@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > John > On Jul 30, 9:18 pm, "johnniemccoy@" <johnniemc...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > Any ideas about this health disparity? Why are diabetic women being > left behind? Don't you have to factor out the effects of women being undertreated for heart disease, perhaps because of the bias that pre-menopausal women don't have heart attacks? If this is true, in general, there's no reason to think it wouldn't be true of diabetic women as well.  SignatureAF "Non Sequitur U has a really, really lousy debate team." --artyw raises the bar on rec.sport.baseball > In article <1185849352.988728.74...@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > - Show quoted text - They compared diabetic versus nondiabetic women. The death rate doubled in diabetics when you compare the two groups. That removes the potentially confounding effects of the overall undertreatment of heart disease and other gender-related issues. So, regardless of what happens to women across the board, diabetic women are doing even worse. : > In article <1185849352.988728.74...@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, : > [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] : > : > - Show quoted text - : They compared diabetic versus nondiabetic women. The death rate : doubled in diabetics when you compare the two groups. That removes the : potentially confounding effects of the overall undertreatment of heart : disease and other gender-related issues. : So, regardless of what happens to women across the board, diabetic : women are doing even worse. No necessarily. If diabetics in general, are more at risk fo rCVD, heart attacks and strokes than non-diabetics, if the women are given less cardio/stoke preventive care there will be more deaths from the highly suseptible diabetic women than among the less susseptible non-diabetic women, exacerbaiting the difference. Wendy > : > In article <1185849352.988728.74...@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > > Wendy Well, less preventive care is one of the hypotheses explaining the disparity. The disparity has been unearthed in this study, Now we need to figure out why. Yuor 'less preventive care' hypothesis is one of the possible causes. > >> [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > > I am not saying that a disparity does not exist - it may, but the numbers five are as bad as most statistics on diabetes. I can't tell if the idiot who did the study can't count, or has problems explaining. Probably a little of both There is also a problem in that the life expectancy for women in the US is 7 years LONGER than that of men. If women are getting such lousy care, and have such a high mortality, how come they aren't actually dying? (HCFA Life Expectancy Tables |). It used to be 5 years longer, go back a while and it was three years longer, go back far enough and it was actually shorter "ted rosenberg" <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote in message news:f8o830$7u3 > There is also a problem in that the life expectancy for women in the US is > 7 years LONGER than that of men. If women are getting such lousy care, > and have such a high mortality, how come they aren't actually dying? (HCFA > Life Expectancy Tables |). It used to be 5 years longer, go back a while > and it was three years longer, go back far enough and it was actually > shorter Obviously, this is a technology issue rather than being related to the quality, or availability, of medical care. Increased methods of communication between women from all over the world have enabled them to develop, through the years, more advances ways to drive men to the grave at a younger age. John : "ted rosenberg" <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote in message news:f8o830$7u3 : > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] : develop, through the years, more advances ways to drive men to the grave at : a younger age. : John Ok wiseguy. Think of producing a child every year or so and doing all the water hauling, house and kitchen work, laundry done by boiling water on teh stove, etc, all while mostlypregnant andor lactatting. No wonder men often wore out 2 or 3 wives in the course of a lifetime. Wendy > : "ted rosenberg" <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote in message > news:f8o830$7u3 [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Wendy Well, I have to say, they're certainly getting back at us now....hehe John Cooking .. you left out the cooking ! .. and cleaning ... and changing the bedding ... "W. Baker" <wbaker@panix.com> a écrit ... > Ok wiseguy. Think of producing a child every year or so and doing all the > water hauling, house and kitchen work, laundry done by boiling water on > teh stove, etc, all while mostlypregnant andor lactatting. No wonder men > often wore out 2 or 3 wives in the course of a lifetime. > > Wendy : Cooking .. you left out the cooking ! .. and cleaning ... and changing the : bedding ... : "W. Baker" <wbaker@panix.com> a ?crit ... : > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] : > : > Wendy What do you think thewater hauling, house work and kitchen work was? Cooking on a wook or coal stove, etc. In even older times, it was cooking in a open fireplace with heavy pots hanging from hooks, etc. Wendy >What do you think thewater hauling, house work and kitchen work was? >Cooking on a wook or coal stove, etc. In even older times, it was cooking >in a open fireplace with heavy pots hanging from hooks, etc. > >Wendy You remind me of the last family reunion I attended with my spouses family. open fireplace...cast iron pots hanging from hooks, that was such a wonderful week. But for the life of me, I can't recall any of the women doing any of the cooking until we got the gas tank filled and hooked back up to the propane stove. Not one of those little camping units. But one of those huge cast iron stoves with an oven. Came off an old navy ship. You can see one like it at the Hill House in Portsmouth Will. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >I am not saying that a disparity does not exist - it may, but the >numbers five are as bad as most statistics on diabetes. I can't tell if [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >go back a while and it was three years longer, go back far enough and it >was actually shorter I assume they're talking about diabetic women who don't have good control, and don't stay top of things, right? "W. Baker" <wbaker@panix.com> wrote in part: >: So, regardless of what happens to women across the board, diabetic >: women are doing even worse. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >suseptible diabetic women than among the less susseptible non-diabetic >women, exacerbaiting the difference. Yes. I think that is a likely part of the explanation. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA glass318 <glass318@yahoo.com> wrote in part: >They compared diabetic versus nondiabetic women. The death rate >doubled in diabetics when you compare the two groups. That removes the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >So, regardless of what happens to women across the board, diabetic >women are doing even worse. I think one reason may be that women have less muscle than men and are less likely to work to build it. It is harder for them to achieve as low a body fat %, also. That combination makes diabetes worse for women. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > I think one reason may be that women have less muscle than men and are > less > likely to work to build it. It is harder for them to achieve as low a body > fat %, also. That combination makes diabetes worse for women. > -- Women aren't supposed to have as low a body fat % as men. So, is it harder for them to get to a normal female % than it is for men? or just less likely that they will do the type of exercise that gets it there? bj "bj" <bjones44@bellatlantic.net> wrote in part: >> I think one reason may be that women have less muscle than men and are >> less [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >just less likely that they will do the type of exercise that gets it there? >bj I think diabetes may affect women more because they have a naturally lower ratio of muscle to fat. It is also less likely for them to engage in muscle-building activity, and doing so has a smaller effect. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > "bj" <bjones44@bellatlantic.net> wrote in part: > >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > ratio of muscle to fat. It is also less likely for them to engage in > muscle-building activity, and doing so has a smaller effect. More significantly here in the U.S., pregnant women are unwisely instructed to eat for two and so they often more than double their intake. The world's great lie about hunger tends to be more deeply entrenched in the hearts of women: http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease Be hungry... be healthy... be blessed. Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Cardiologist But, Jim,, that's so they can stand closer to the sink ... <grinning, ducking & running> "Jim Chinnis" <jchinnis@SPAMalum.mit.edu> a écrit ... > I think one reason may be that women have less muscle than men and are > less > likely to work to build it. It is harder for them to achieve as low a body > fat %, also. That combination makes diabetes worse for women. > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA >But, Jim,, that's so they can stand closer to the sink ... > ><grinning, ducking & running> You know, that is really not funny. Take it back. OK, for the pregnant ones (like my wife) ... I take it back. They CAN'T stand closer to the sink ... <dumb_fishie99@yahoo.com> a écrit ... >>But, Jim,, that's so they can stand closer to the sink ... >> >><grinning, ducking & running> > > You know, that is really not funny. Take it back. >OK, for the pregnant ones (like my wife) ... I take it back. >They CAN'T stand closer to the sink ... Ok that's it. You are a friggin chauvinist, and it's really not appreciated. I get sick of this. Recently on a coputer forum I'm on, Somebody started a thread called "why can;t women shut their trap." HIs avatar was a picture of Chuck Norris hitting a woman, and all the guys went for this. They lined up around the block to feel sorry for the guy because his girlfriend really didn;t like it, and said so. The moderators had so little liking for this thread that they locked it, then they removed it entirely. You need to get a f.cking clue, and have some respect. Whoaa, get a grip on yourself ... <dumb_fishie99@yahoo.com> a écrit ... >>OK, for the pregnant ones (like my wife) ... I take it back. >>They CAN'T stand closer to the sink ... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > You need to get a f.cking clue, and have some respect. >Whoaa, get a grip on yourself ... No you get get a grip, and take a good look at how insulting it is. Or do you have enough self awareness to do so? >>Whoaa, get a grip on yourself ... > > No you get get a grip, and take a good look at > how insulting it is. Or do you have enough > self awareness to do so? She's right, you know. Us men are a little too rough on women with our humor sometimes. Broads don't like that insulting stuff. John You* are mistaken in your evaluations. I am talking English, not American dialect. I live in a different society, with different values where it IS OK to call a woman one likes a "babe" and not raise an eyebrow. In fact, I have several American women who never take offense at my correspondence after 6+ years of exchanges. I realise that you live in a society which is radically different, and which I would not be comfortable but I never attack you for your positions (though they offend me as I see many responses as "hair trigger" reactions). I am truly sorry for all of you that reacted that way. You will probably be like that for the rest of your lives. Frank *'You', in this instance, is an address to all those who reacted to my posts. <dumb_fishie99@yahoo.com> a écrit ... >>Whoaa, get a grip on yourself ... > > No you get get a grip, and take a good look at > how insulting it is. Or do you have enough > self awareness to do so? > You* are mistaken in your evaluations. > > I am talking English, not American dialect. > I live in a different society, with different values where > it IS OK to call a woman one likes a "babe" and > not raise an eyebrow. You can call me babe anytime :) As to pregnancy jokes. I have been pregnant 7 times and it is the usual to be the butt of friendly ribbing whereI live, like I have a built-in tray for my tea or I can't sit close to the table etc. All in good fun. "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote in message > I have been pregnant 7 times Don't you have a television? John > "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote in message > >> I have been pregnant 7 times > Don't you have a television? lol What? ... has your cable never broken down ? "johnniemccoy@" <johnniemccoy@NOSPAMhotmail.com> a écrit ... > "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote in message > >> I have been pregnant 7 times > Don't you have a television? > > John Wow 7! You are either a saint or crazy! Or maybe started one and moved to the other... :-) KROM > You can call me babe anytime :) As to pregnancy jokes. I have been > pregnant 7 times and it is the usual to be the butt of friendly ribbing > whereI live, like I have a built-in tray for my tea or I can't sit close > to the table etc. All in good fun. What do other guys tink? I think 7 is a great number, and hats off to you for going so far, "Ozgirl" ! "krom" <thekromremoveremove@hotmail.com> a écrit ... > Wow 7! > You are either a saint or crazy! [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> whereI live, like I have a built-in tray for my tea or I can't sit close >> to the table etc. All in good fun. > What do other guys tink? > > I think 7 is a great number, and hats off to you for > going so far, "Ozgirl" ! Yes, I should have slapped his hand away the first time :) >> What do other guys tink? >> >> I think 7 is a great number, and hats off to you for >> going so far, "Ozgirl" ! > > Yes, I should have slapped his hand away the first time :) ..... not his hand John "... given him an ice cream .." wold have been better. Redirecting focus is often more succesful and in this example, a darn site more pleasing ... F "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> a écrit ... >> What do other guys tink? >> >> I think 7 is a great number, and hats off to you for >> going so far, "Ozgirl" ! > > Yes, I should have slapped his hand away the first time :) Oh i love kids..just not THAT patient.. My father came from a family with 10 other brothers and sisters and my wife has 6 brothers and sisters. I was a only child and LIKED it..lol KROM > What do other guys tink? > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >>> whereI live, like I have a built-in tray for my tea or I can't sit close >>> to the table etc. All in good fun. I am a member of a 5 children family. Although there were frequent heated debates as children, we were a strong family. Now, of course, one is in Oz, one in Switzerland, one in France and 2 in the UK, near Oxford. We all ADORED our mother ... and still do, though she is no longer with us. "krom" <thekromremoveremove@hotmail.com> a écrit ... > Oh i love kids..just not THAT patient.. > My father came from a family with 10 other brothers and sisters and my [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >>>> whereI live, like I have a built-in tray for my tea or I can't sit >>>> close to the table etc. All in good fun. People who come from big families always seem to like it..and those only children the same.. KROM >I am a member of a 5 children family. > Although there were frequent heated debates as children, [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >>>>> ribbing whereI live, like I have a built-in tray for my tea or I can't >>>>> sit close to the table etc. All in good fun. > Wow 7! > You are either a saint or crazy! > Or maybe started one and moved to the other... Like unfinished projects? lol. NOW I Know why one of my brothers emigrated to Oz ... Babe ! (You see, it's not a physical thing ... it's amentality thing, I think) "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> a écrit ... >> You* are mistaken in your evaluations. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > whereI live, like I have a built-in tray for my tea or I can't sit close > to the table etc. All in good fun. I keep the pregnancy jokes for my wife ... she loves them ! But they are too good to waste on 'a certain class of people' in here ... "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> a écrit ... >> You* are mistaken in your evaluations. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > whereI live, like I have a built-in tray for my tea or I can't sit close > to the table etc. All in good fun. > I keep the pregnancy jokes for my wife ... she loves them ! > But they are too good to waste on 'a certain class of people' in here ... I know you consider yourself quite a wit, Frank. You're only half right. Susan >You* are mistaken in your evaluations. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >You will probably be like that for the rest of your lives. So will you. <dumb_fishie99@yahoo.com> a écrit ... >>You* are mistaken in your evaluations. >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > So will you. Sorry for you .. you won't like this response but I think you have issues with society ... Several people have tried their best to explain to you the differences in societies and you apear to refuse to listen to them. Your total contribution (give or take one post, as I post now), appears to be to wish to impose your way of thinking on a stranger to your society in this one thread ... I do not know what sets you apart, aside from the speculation on my part, that your gender is "feminine" and that you possibly have been hurt by a man or men in the past. I wanted to avoid telling you this but, "your attitude is a large part of what is disliked about americans (you ARE american, aren't you?) in the world." On the more positive side, Americans have in the less-recent past, shewn enormous tolerance for other people's cultures, have been in the past, great sharers of burdens, whether financial or other. Those hey-days of when America was admired, enjoyed and welcomed everywhere in the world, appear to be attenuated in the last [almost] decade. I have seen people from many sectors of society in my travels around the world, jewish, women, Jehovah's witnesses, 'original sects', and what for many americans would be shocking, 'communists' too. Have you travelled to broaden your outlook on humanity ? Do your best to shew Americans in their better light ... for their sake. >>OK, for the pregnant ones (like my wife) ... I take it back. >>They CAN'T stand closer to the sink ... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >You need to get a f.cking clue, and have some respect. Let's just lighten up... Frank is OK. He was just making a joke. His wife *is* pregnant, a joyous event in the lives of the two of them... He is a loving husband and a very nice fellow. Indeed, he has long known some members of my family, for over 30 yrs, and they vouch for him very strongly. Will, T2 Indeed, he has > long known some members of my family, for over 30 yrs, and they vouch > for him very strongly. Not fer nuthin', but it's not hard to see why they might be called upon to do so. ;-) Susan >Not fer nuthin', but it's not hard to see why they might be called upon >to do so. ;-) Come on, Susan.. Give poor Frank a break. He really is a first rate fellow, who just has a sense of humor, that's all... Some of my crowd have known him for many years, and I would trust him with my life. By the way, Frank has endured tragedy that is quite beyond the imagining of many of us here... Please take it easy on him. Also, please don't underestimate Frank! Stand by for a joke, or a blast, of some sort! ;-) Will, T2 >>Not fer nuthin', but it's not hard to see why they might be called upon >>to do so. ;-) [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Stand by for a joke, or a blast, of some sort! ;-) Yeah yeah yeah, it was the same thing on the computer forum..... don;t antagonize us guys! Put up with it! Well guess what .....at least the moderators had a sense of decency. So why don;t you? >Well guess what .....at least the moderators had a sense >of decency. So why don;t you? > > Huh? What are you smokin? I really don't think that you know anything about my sense of decency... Or else your a.s is screwed on too tight. Will, T2 > >Well guess what .....at least the moderators had a sense > >of decency. So why don;t you? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > What are you smokin? I really don't think that you know anything about > my sense of decency... Or else your a.s is screwed on too tight. For the most part, you do seem quite decent. But you're showing an inexplicable blindspot with regard to Frank's overt misogyny. SignatureAF "Non Sequitur U has a really, really lousy debate team." --artyw raises the bar on rec.sport.baseball >> >Well guess what .....at least the moderators had a sense >> >of decency. So why don;t you? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >For the most part, you do seem quite decent. But you're showing an >inexplicable blindspot with regard to Frank's overt misogyny. Hi Alice, I just don't see it as overt misogyny... I just thought he was making a joke. You must realize Frank lives and worked for many years in a very different culture than that which prevails here. As I was driving to a court case about 75 miles away this morning, I was thinking about the exchanges in this thread.... Maybe I am more inclined to take a more tolerant view with people. It does seem like some of the prostitutes and borderline criminals I often represent are better company than the excessively and affectedly "decent" people. Then I heard that Roy Buchanan lyric, "if I go to Hell, I will speak very highly of you.... " Sometimes asd reminds me or the title of a very enjoyable book of literary criticism and commentary that I read one time. The title of the book is "The Come as You Are Masquerade Party", by Samuel Rosenberg.... really great reading. Rosenberg also wrote "Why Freud Fainted", and "Naked is the Best Disguise". Samuel Rosenberg, now deceased, was an extremely witty and knowledgeable man who made his living in large part as a consultant and detective of sorts in the area of copyright infringement.... I recommend his writing highly to the more literary inclined. Will, T2 > >> >Well guess what .....at least the moderators had a sense > >> >of decency. So why don;t you? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > was making a joke. You must realize Frank lives and worked for many > years in a very different culture than that which prevails here. Indeed. But he also needs to realize that a large number of participants here find some of his jokes extremely offensive. We've had far too much experience with misogynists who attempt to justify their remarks with "can't you take a joke?" SignatureAF "Non Sequitur U has a really, really lousy debate team." --artyw raises the bar on rec.sport.baseball : > >> >Well guess what .....at least the moderators had a sense : > >> >of decency. So why don;t you? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] : > was making a joke. You must realize Frank lives and worked for many : > years in a very different culture than that which prevails here. : Indeed. But he also needs to realize that a large number of participants : here find some of his jokes extremely offensive. We've had far too much : experience with misogynists who attempt to justify their remarks with : "can't you take a joke?" First there was the "baby" business and now this. Wendy The baby business is my wifes affair ... for December. Is that what you mean, Wendy ? "W. Baker" <wbaker@panix.com> a écrit ... > First there was the "baby" business and now this. > > Wendy : The baby business is my wifes affair ... for December. : Is that what you mean, Wendy ? : "W. Baker" <wbaker@panix.com> a ?crit ... : > : > First there was the "baby" business and now this. : > : > Wendy Nope, calling women baby or babe. I think your wife having a baby os wonderful. Wendy Ahh, but since I am called to task on the PRECISION of my posts, I think it only normal that I call others to task, should they challenge me. And you wrote 'baby business' (I *never* posted in here, the term 'baby', AFAIR) "W. Baker" <wbaker@panix.com> a écrit ... > : The baby business is my wifes affair ... for December. > : Is that what you mean, Wendy ? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Wendy : Ahh, but since I am called to task on the PRECISION of my : posts, I think it only normal that I call others to task, should : they challenge me. : And you wrote 'baby business' (I *never* posted in here, : the term 'baby', AFAIR) Never called anyone "Babe?" Wendy > Indeed. But he also needs to realize that a large number of participants > here find some of his jokes extremely offensive. We've had far too much > experience with misogynists who attempt to justify their remarks with > "can't you take a joke? Well, granted, I can understand how some of the readership would not think it was an appropriate joke.... I just do not see Frank as a misogynist, however. Maybe that is because my brother's father-in-law speaks so highly of him, having known and worked with him at IBM in France. Both gentlemen are English and are extremely well educated and cultured. Will, T2 > > >> >Well guess what .....at least the moderators had a sense > > >> >of decency. So why don;t you? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > experience with misogynists who attempt to justify their remarks with > "can't you take a joke?" Amen, sister. Priscilla >Hi Alice, I just don't see it as overt misogyny... I just thought he >was making a joke. You must realize Frank lives and worked for many [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >some of the prostitutes and borderline criminals I often represent are >better company than the excessively and affectedly "decent" people. Are you saying that you like the whores better because they don't mind a little misogyny? Are you calling those of us who have a problem with it as being worse people than those who do hate women? Men who sympathisize with misogynysts, are misogynysts themselves. THAT'S why you like it too. THAT'S why you don't mind it when others do it. I think there should be an international anti-misogyny court. Any man that exhibits misogyny, gets no more sex for the rest of life. NONE! See how fast that turns them around! heh. > Are you saying that you like the whores better because they don't mind > a little misogyny? Are you calling those of us who have a problem > with it as being worse people than those who do hate women? You misunderstand my point... I am talking about conjeniality and people who have enjoyable personalities. Note also, that I said "some" of the those that I represent, not "all".... They are human beings, and an excess of over-zealous judgmental pronouncement by "decent people" cannot take that away from them. Sorry to disappoint you, but it is not an all black and white, this and that, either or, kind of world.... You have just told me a lot about your personality and the psychic scars you bear. You must have had a hard life..... Sorry. Will, T2 > Are you saying that you like the whores better because they don't mind > > a little misogyny? Are you calling those of us who have a problem [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > You must have had a hard life..... Sorry. Even Horace Rumpole sometimes saw the human side of members of the Timson family.... Seems like Tom Timson was a frequent flier at the Old Bailey.... charged with burglary, larceny, and such.... Not that I am a misogynist, which I am definitely not, I would hate to be on your approved list, dumb fishie.... A coven of witches would be more fun ;-) I actually have known some witches.... I have represented some of them. Now,on the other hand, I do enjoy fresh fish from time to time..... Have a nice day.... It has been great fun talking with you. Will, T2 >Even Horace Rumpole sometimes saw the human side of members of the Timson >family.... Seems like Tom Timson was a frequent flier at the Old Bailey.... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Now,on the other hand, I do enjoy fresh fish from time to time..... Have a >nice day.... It has been great fun talking with you. You just have to get those little stabs in there, don't you.... that's a sign of being somewhat dysfunctional. >You just have to get those little stabs in there, don't you.... >that's a sign of being somewhat dysfunctional. Sorry, I live in a very, very fast paced world.... and a very complex reality, that changes moment by moment, as it were... No stabs, really... just an extention of my ruminations about the complexity of human existence. Come go through just a day at my side, and you will see what I mean... Will, T2 >Even Horace Rumpole sometimes saw the human side of members of the Timson >family.... Seems like Tom Timson was a frequent flier at the Old Bailey.... >charged with burglary, larceny, and such.... You're not facing it, Will. You just don;t want to face that it wasn't a nice thing to say. >Not that I am a misogynist, which I am definitely not, I would hate to be on >your approved list, dumb fishie.... A coven of witches would be more fun ;-) >I actually have known some witches.... I have represented some of them. > >Now,on the other hand, I do enjoy fresh fish from time to time..... Have a >nice day.... It has been great fun talking with you. Ok I'll try this again: It would be more useful if you left out the little jabs. Communicate honestly instead, ok? >>Not that I am a misogynist, which I am definitely not, I would hate to be on >>your approved list, dumb fishie.... A coven of witches would be more fun ;-) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Ok I'll try this again: It would be more useful if you left out the >little jabs. Communicate honestly instead, ok? I never post in any other way... Will, T2 >>Ok I'll try this again: It would be more useful if you left out the >>little jabs. Communicate honestly instead, ok? > >I never post in any other way... > >Will, T2 Sorry fishie, It is just my way... I really do try to be totally honest all the time, and where matters of fact are concerned, all of my posts are caluclated to be 100% verifiable from multiple sources, as some here have learned. Where emotions are concerned, I really and truly do try to be sincere. Still, please remember that I am a trial lawyer, somewhat skilled in the classic arts of rhetoric and argumentation, and have been such for about 30 years... It is how I make my living. Also, I teach here and there, and I am frequently invited to give lectures and presentations, both locally, and all over the world... Several of the people reading this may remember some of my exploits in at least two cases within the last couple of years that were publicized worldwide... As part of the way I have made my way, I have been a very serious student of psychology, and I have both studied psychology intensively and applied it in my practic, with the help of a number of friends who are well known psychologists and psychiatrists. It has really helped me to have that "edge" in court. Will, T2 "Will, T2" <wmmckee@cox.net> wrote in message > Now,on the other hand, I do enjoy fresh fish from time to time..... > > Will, T2 Oh My God!!!...... hahahahaha John >> Are you saying that you like the whores better because they don't mind >> a little misogyny? Are you calling those of us who have a problem [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >away from them. Sorry to disappoint you, but it is not an all black and >white, this and that, either or, kind of world.... Will, I think there's a problem with closing your eyes to the unpleasant things people do just because you know them personally, just because they have a fine education and are witty and etc. The problem with your way of thinking is that you accept his misogyny because of social factors, and then turn around and judge the women here who don't like it. You have never been in their shoes, have you? So now you want us to not say anything about it. I think what really needs to happen here, is you look at how taking sides on this issue causes you to actually side with misogyny. You did not say: " Frank is a fine person but I don;t agree with his ideas." You said that Frank is a fine person, and we women should just put up with his ideas. Big difference. So maybe you need to really be clear, first, about where you stand on the issue before you say anything, because being told by you that he's a fine person in non-cyberspace, doesn't excuse what he does on-line. Even though you think it should. So you need to take a real look at what he's actually doing, on here. Put what you know about him aside, and ask yourself: "Gee, was that a nice thing to say, or wasn't it?" (to be clear, I'm talking about Frank's joke). Be honest! You know in your heart , it was not a nice thing to say. That is what needs to be faced here, not how supposedly nice or educated he is. >You have just told me a lot about your personality and the psychic scars you >bear. >You must have had a hard life..... Sorry. I think that could be taken as rather judgmental, actually. So you make this judgment about me from a few posts, yet you expect us to ignore our own observations about Frank T2 and take your word for it? If you are trying to be nice, I accept, but excuse me, no you don;t know, and it's none of your business. >The problem with your way of thinking is that you accept his misogyny >because of social factors, and then turn around and judge the women >here who don't like it. You have never been in their shoes, have >you? So now you want us to not say anything about it. I am not judging anyone, and I certainly do not presume to judge either you or Frank... I simply did not think he was a misogynist from his post, given what I know about him from sources outside asd... One of the sources is a VERY senior VP of IBM, who is a much beloved member of my extended family. My only agenda is kindness and tolerance.... I have often been in my own shoes, judged by people who mis-attribute and misquote my statements in the natinal and international press.. I have represented and been the champion of horribly abused women, some of whom were murder victims. Believe me, I do get it... I just think that maybe the radar was set in an over-sensitive mode, as to Frank. He can speak for himself, but I do know that Frank truly loves women for the wonderful people that they are.... About the "hard life"... Yes, I do sense that you have had your share of disappointments and bereavement. And, I agree, it is your business. The remark was meant only in a very kind and sincere way... Do you have a name? I hate to keep calling you "dumb fishie" or "pescado mudo", or whatever may be the language of the moment. Have a very nice night ! One of the problems with the Internet, is that people cannot really guage and evaluate each other easily, in real time, to allow for spontaneity. I very much appreciate the strength and honesty of your emotions, though. Your friend, Will >>> Are you saying that you like the whores better because they don't mind >>> a little misogyny? Are you calling those of us who have a problem [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > because of social factors, and then turn around and judge the women > here who don't like it. If you call the pregnancy comment misogyny then you don't know what it means. Friendly ribbing, that's what I see. And I am sure Frank's pregnant wife isn't jumping up and down about him not being "PC". >If you call the pregnancy comment misogyny then you don't know what it >means. Friendly ribbing, that's what I see. And I am sure Frank's pregnant >wife isn't jumping up and down about him not being "PC". No, .I' m talking about the joke that implies that all women are bulimic. That means that to be female is to be so freaked out about one's appearance that vomiting is necessary. That means all women are like this. I don't know why it wasn't clear to everyone, but apparently it wasn't. This is what happens when jokes are made that make genrealizations about all members of any gender or race. >If you call the pregnancy comment misogyny then you don't know what it >means. Friendly ribbing, that's what I see. And I am sure Frank's pregnant >wife isn't jumping up and down about him not being "PC". PS: no offense meant. I shouldn't assume it was clear to everyone. But yes I do know what misogyny means. >Are you saying that you like the whores better because they don't mind >a little misogyny? Are you calling those of us who have a problem [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >See how fast that turns them around! heh. oh great, just f'en great. And just who's door do you think those creeps are gonna come a knockin on when they can't get any nooky? Trust me, there's another group of people on this planet who don't want them either. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . >oh great, just f'en great. And just who's door do you think those >creeps are gonna come a knockin on when they can't get any nooky? >Trust me, there's another group of people on this planet who don't >want them either. This is merely a fantasy, and I was thinking they couldn't go to men either. Not even themselves! I think it would work though. >>oh great, just f'en great. And just who's door do you think those >>creeps are gonna come a knockin on when they can't get any nooky? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >I think it would work though. not even themselves? uh oh someone's about to create a male chastity belt. SignatureMåck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco" "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . > Are you saying that you like the whores better because they don't mind > a little misogyny? Are you calling those of us who have a problem [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > THAT'S why you like it too. THAT'S why you don't mind it when > others do it. You are SO way out of line here. Susan Alice Faber wrote in message ... >> What are you smokin? I really don't think that you know anything about >> my sense of decency... Or else your a.s is screwed on too tight. > >For the most part, you do seem quite decent. But you're showing an >inexplicable blindspot with regard to Frank's overt misogyny. Thank you Alice. I spend a lot of time biting my fingers instead of typing responses to some of those posts...including the one a few days ago when heart problems in women diabetics was being discussed, and the reason they are often left behind in care...and someone (you know who you are) said..."just the ugly ones." If I would have posted the response I wanted to, I would have been very ashamed of myself. LOL Cheri > Alice Faber wrote in message ... > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Cheri You know, in truth, no one loves politically incorrect humor better than I. I think the reason I find Frank's posts so tiresome is that he doesn't have the kind of history or personal capital with me that would let me know that he's really not a misogynist or any other "ist." In addition, I find it easier to take jokes and giggles from folks who occasionally interrupt the merriment to discuss DM and post useful information or questions about it. I'm perfectly willing to accept Will's word for Frank's real life decency. I'm just not willing to read Frank's posts or say they're okay with me when they're not. Maybe if he took a breather from the low brow asides once in a while, and behaved a bit less like a juvenile. Susan >You know, in truth, no one loves politically incorrect humor better than >I. I think the reason I find Frank's posts so tiresome is that he [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Susan I think you've hit the nail on the head there Susan. It does take time to get to know a poster before knowing how to take them. Cheri >You know, in truth, no one loves politically incorrect humor better than >I. I think the reason I find Frank's posts so tiresome is that he >doesn't have the kind of history or personal capital with me that would >let me know that he's really not a misogynist or any other "ist." Yeah, I think that's the problem -there's no context here; you can't see if Frank is grinning and you can't throw a mock-punch back. During the running of this thread IRL, two men have called me babe; one I snapped at, one was fine in context. On the assumption that no-one other than my husband (for whom it's not optional) actually thinks I am a babe, my response is likely to be coloured by my level of tolerance for that person - Frank probably gets more than my window-cleaner, who left with a distinct flea in his ear :D Nicky. T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid D&E, 100ug thyroxine Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25 > Thank you Alice. I spend a lot of time biting my fingers instead of > typing responses to some of those posts... Lol me too. It's so ingrained in me to "not say anything if you can't say something nice," that I practically can't post. You'd all laugh if you knew how many posts I start and discard. This thread is hilarious, though, and I couldnt' resist chiming in. including the one a few days > ago when heart problems in women diabetics was being discussed, and > the reason they are often left behind in care...and someone (you know > who you are) said..."just the ugly ones." If I would have posted the > response I wanted to, I would have been very ashamed of myself. But he apologized later and even chided poor old Frank because "broads" don't like to be insulted, you know. Next he'll be telling someone they don't sweat much for a fat girl, LOL. Ricavito wrote in message >But he apologized later and even chided poor old Frank because >"broads" don't like to be insulted, you know. Next he'll be telling >someone they don't sweat much for a fat girl, LOL. LOL Rica, no doubt. :-) Cheri > Ricavito wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Cheri Huh, uh. In my opinion, "fat jokes" are cruelty, not comedy. In some cases, you can joke about someone who has a temporary, or a passing condition that might appear comical "at the time," but not a condition or situation that can possibly be the cause of maybe a lifetime of pain or heartbreak. Like if a guy sprains his ankle and hobbles around for a week or so, he might get teased, but you don't make fun of of the guy who hobbles around because he's crippled. Now, women? ... that's another story. They're just damn funny..........hehe JOhn On Aug 2, 10:45 pm, "johnniemccoy@" <johnniemc...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote: you can joke about someone who has a temporary, or a passing condition that > might appear comical "at the time," but not a condition or situation that > can possibly be the cause of maybe a lifetime of pain or heartbreak. Like if [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > JOhn Yeah, in my youth I used to find Helen Keller and dead baby jokes funny. Life has disabused me of a lot of such insensitivities, and at the same time it's not worth it to be too thin skinned--you have to spend a lot of energy being offended and I'd rather spend it laughing. I too still find the opposite sex pretty funny. My husband and I laugh a lot, at each other's little pecadillos, LOL > On Aug 2, 10:45 pm, "johnniemccoy@" <johnniemc...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > laughing. I too still find the opposite sex pretty funny. My husband > and I laugh a lot, at each other's little pecadillos, LOL Not that his pecadillo is little, LOL, it's quite healthy sized. >Huh, uh. In my opinion, "fat jokes" are cruelty, not comedy. In some cases, >you can joke about someone who has a temporary, or a passing condition that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >crippled. Now, women? ... that's another story. They're just damn >funny..........hehe I have at least found a more positve way to deal with the chauvinists on that computer forum. Now I just go straight to the moderators, and zip the offensive comments are gone. These guys (the posters not the moderators) have such a low level mentality that they even find it funny if a woman expresses her dislike of the misogyny. Eventually I might even suggest a sticky post by the moderators, because there are far too many threads like that. Maybe I'll be glad when my computer upgrade is done, unless I decide to overclock. In that case I might become a real regular. >> Thank you Alice. I spend a lot of time biting my fingers instead of >> typing responses to some of those posts... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >"broads" don't like to be insulted, you know. Next he'll be telling >someone they don't sweat much for a fat girl, LOL. well what can you say about a guy who plays his music loud on Mondays just to piss off his neighbors? er.......:) almost. >>> Thank you Alice. I spend a lot of time biting my fingers instead of >>> typing responses to some of those posts... [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > well what can you say about a guy who plays his music loud on Mondays > just to piss off his neighbors? er.......:) almost. Not only that, while I'm grilling and listening to the music, I let the dog wander around unsupervised so he can crap in their yards. I call it, "lawn mower surprise." ....hehehe. This Monday I have a cd of old Arab folk songs to play for a while... let's see if that stirs em up a little. John >Not only that, while I'm grilling and listening to the music, I let the dog >wander around unsupervised so he can crap in their yards. I call it, "lawn >mower surprise." ....hehehe. This Monday I have a cd of old Arab folk songs >to play for a while... let's see if that stirs em up a little. Oh God. Watch out they might think of ways to get you back... > Thank you Alice. I spend a lot of time biting my fingers instead of > typing responses to some of those posts...including the one a few days [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Cheri That was me. And after posting it, I felt properly chastised by my own conscience. In truth, I feel very strongly about ugly women getting fair treatment. John >>Not fer nuthin', but it's not hard to see why they might be called upon >>to do so. ;-) > > Come on, Susan.. Give poor Frank a break. Will, I have given him a break. I completely ignore him, and have pretty much since his arrival here. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Not fer nuthin', but it's not hard to see why they might be called upon > to do so. ;-) LOL! One of those comments that you have to wait a two-beat to get. Priscilla Will, T2 wrote in message ... >>>OK, for the pregnant ones (like my wife) ... I take it back. >>>They CAN'T stand closer to the sink ... [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Will, T2 You really don't need to speak for Frank, Will. He seems quite capable of putting his own foot in his mouth at times. LOL Cheri >You really don't need to speak for Frank, Will. He seems quite capable >of putting his own foot in his mouth at times. LOL Maybe someday, Cheri, I will share with you what I was thinking... Will, T2 >You really don't need to speak for Frank, Will. He seems quite capable >of putting his own foot in his mouth at times. LOL > >Cheri :-)) Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. > Any ideas about this health di |
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