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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / August 2007What we thought of the movie "Sicko"
Hello dear friends, We went to see "Sicko" yesterday as planned. To us it is definitely a MUST SEE movie. It will really make you wonder why the United States has to be so far behind other nations on something as important as health care. The is the only country where people are forced into bankruptcy and lost their homes even if they have health insurance. It is also the only country where the doctor has to get prior approval from an insurance company or anyone else before providing a service to a patient regardless of who that person is or their financial status. We have heard it said that doctors would leave medicine in droves if we ever pass a universal health care plan in this country. Just wait till you see the French general practice doctor who drives a new Audi and owns a one million dollar three story house on his wages paid by the government. Even if you are not a Michael Moore fan, if you believe only half of what is said in the movie, we think you will still believe you would be better off medically if you lived somewhere else - even Cuba. Go see it yourself and take the time to think about what you just saw.  SignatureGrandpa Chuck -ô¿ô- ~ Americans killed in the occupation of Iraq as of July 29, 2007 is 3,651. United Kingdom = 163 Other = 129. How many more Americans must die to satisfy Bush's ego? Let us all pray for Bush - God knows he needs it! As of July 30, 2007 it has been 1552 days since Bush while standing in front of the banner which was sent to the ship by the White House saying MISSION ACCOMPLISHED declared,"In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed." IOW MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Isn't Bush's "surge" of troops working well? Pay attention to the frequency of American deaths since it began. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, and carrying a cross." --Sinclair Lewis Thanks Chuck, I think I will see this this weekend. Loretta >Hello dear friends, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >else - even Cuba. Go see it yourself and take the time to think about >what you just saw. Michael Moore makes interesting movies. They are not documentries by any stretch of the imagination. Some of what he says is true, some is out of context, and some is just not true. Everyone is free to go to Cuba to live (I think). Or anywhere else that you have mentioned. I am not saying that our health system is great. I am not saying that I am against Free health Care for everyone. I don't think the government should run the program. Oversee it, sure, but not run it. Just one true independents opinion. >>Hello dear friends, >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >should run the program. Oversee it, sure, but not run it. Just one >true independents opinion. Then who should run it? Private insurance companies? Drug companies? If this country cannot establish a free health care system better than any other in the world by learning from mistakes other countries have made then we have failed at our old inspirational (not religious) and our ingenuity. SignatureGrandpa Chuck -ô¿ô- ~ Americans killed in the occupation of Iraq as of July 29, 2007 is 3,651. United Kingdom = 163 Other = 129. How many more Americans must die to satisfy Bush's ego? Let us all pray for Bush - God knows he needs it! As of July 30, 2007 it has been 1552 days since Bush while standing in front of the banner which was sent to the ship by the White House saying MISSION ACCOMPLISHED declared,"In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed." IOW MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Isn't Bush's "surge" of troops working well? Pay attention to the frequency of American deaths since it began. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, and carrying a cross." --Sinclair Lewis >>>Hello dear friends, >>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >made then we have failed at our old inspirational (not religious) and >our ingenuity. Don't know the answer. Don't claim to know the answer. >Hello dear friends, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >else - even Cuba. Go see it yourself and take the time to think about >what you just saw. Chuck, if you are down on mr. Bush as a person, you could be wrong. If you are down on Bushm the icon, yo may be on track. When we elect a new icon, we need to look at where they have obligations. To stay on topic. If there is ot an outcry, diabetes will never be cured. As far as a strike, The medical lcense is a legal document. Abuse it and lose it. >>Hello dear friends, >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Chuck, if you are down on mr. Bush as a person, you could be wrong. What does that have to do with our medical establishment? >If you are down on Bushm the icon, yo may be on track. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >To stay on topic. If there is ot an outcry, diabetes will never be >cured. The drug companies don't want to cure diabetes. That would be killing the golden calf. >As far as a strike, The medical lcense is a legal document. Please explain that statement. It makes no sense to me. >Abuse it and lose it. Huh? SignatureGrandpa Chuck -ô¿ô- ~ Americans killed in the occupation of Iraq as of July 29, 2007 is 3,651. United Kingdom = 163 Other = 129. How many more Americans must die to satisfy Bush's ego? Let us all pray for Bush - God knows he needs it! As of July 30, 2007 it has been 1552 days since Bush while standing in front of the banner which was sent to the ship by the White House saying MISSION ACCOMPLISHED declared,"In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed." IOW MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Isn't Bush's "surge" of troops working well? Pay attention to the frequency of American deaths since it began. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, and carrying a cross." --Sinclair Lewis > United States.... > > is also the only country where the doctor has to get prior approval > from an insurance company or anyone else before providing a service to > a patient regardless of who that person is or their financial status. Huh? I've never had that problem. Sure, sometimes a doctor has commented that my insurance might not cover something-or-other, but hasn't refused treatment on that basis alone. I've had treatment that the insurance company refused to cover, but as long as I agreed to pay for it the doctor & the hospital were fine with doing it. I also go to one doctor that doesn't even take insurance. I work out any coverage/repayment with the insurance company but meanwhile the doctor has been paid. bj > >> United States.... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > well you can afford that. . Many can't. The classic case which helped get the Children's coverage passed initially was a couple in DC with an asthmatic daughter, They both worked minimum wage with no benefits - about 20,000 per year total, WAY too much for medical assistance. Every tie the child had an attack, they went to the ER - at a cost of over $1,000, soon they owed the hospital $20,000. The hospital got a judgment and garnished the very small amount of wages that they could, but the debt kept mounting, Now the child had very uncomplicated asthma, and a few regular doctors visits and an inhaler. The advise to the parents by Social Services was to stop working and than they could get Medical assistance,. >>> United States.... >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> > well you can afford that. . Many can't. I was disputing the idea that a doctor must get approval from <insurance co. etc> no matter the financial status. bj >>>> United States.... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >The issue is that people in the US do suffer and do die every day because they cannot afford medical care. But we make a big deal over a dog fight operation which is very common in the US. Hurt a pet and it is a major case. A simple person setting in a waiting room for tens of hours is not a big deal. They are just a bunch of trash-good riddance. People here live in the temporary golden age of insurance and DO not realize it. Some of the crap that cluttes our life should disaappear before the sun sets. i > >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > No,rxcept in an emergancy, a doctor must get approval, often pre-approval, or an agreement that YOU will pay, or they won't do anything. >>>> United States.... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >etc> no matter the financial status. >bj Thank you for admitting you were wrong. If the person is covered by health insurance the doctor has to get prior approval for most procedures and tests. BTW if you volunteer to pay it yourself it still does on your medical record and may end up costing you coverage later on for subsequent services. SignatureGrandpa Chuck -ô¿ô- ~ Americans killed in the occupation of Iraq as of July 30, 2007 is 3,653. United Kingdom = 163 Other = 129. How many more Americans must die to satisfy Bush's ego? Let us all pray for Bush - God knows he needs it! As of July 31, 2007 it has been 1553 days since Bush while standing in front of the banner which was sent to the ship by the White House saying MISSION ACCOMPLISHED declared,"In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed." IOW MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Isn't Bush's "surge" of troops working well? Pay attention to the frequency of American deaths since it began. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, and carrying a cross." --Sinclair Lewis >> United States.... >> > is also the only country where the doctor has to get prior approval [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >to cover, but as long as I agreed to pay for it the doctor & the hospital >were fine with doing it. But if you lived in Canada, Great Britain or France it would not have cost you anything. >I also go to one doctor that doesn't even take insurance. I work out any >coverage/repayment with the insurance company but meanwhile the doctor has >been paid. >bj Not all of us have that much money. SignatureGrandpa Chuck -ô¿ô- ~ Americans killed in the occupation of Iraq as of July 29, 2007 is 3,651. United Kingdom = 163 Other = 129. How many more Americans must die to satisfy Bush's ego? Let us all pray for Bush - God knows he needs it! As of July 30, 2007 it has been 1552 days since Bush while standing in front of the banner which was sent to the ship by the White House saying MISSION ACCOMPLISHED declared,"In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed." IOW MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Isn't Bush's "surge" of troops working well? Pay attention to the frequency of American deaths since it began. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, and carrying a cross." --Sinclair Lewis >>> United States.... >>> > is also the only country where the doctor has to get prior approval [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > But if you lived in Canada, Great Britain or France it would not have > cost you anything. Would it have been done at all? If it's not approved by my insurance company & I can't afford to have it anyway so I skip it, how is that different from not having it (for free) when the health authority doesn't approve it? And it did turn out to be well worth the trouble, since they did "find something" -- made for an easy fix then but could have been a lot ickier later. bj >>>> United States.... >>>> > is also the only country where the doctor has to get prior approval [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Would it have been done at all? That is a ridiculous question. Did you see the movie? >If it's not approved by my insurance company & I can't afford to have it >anyway so I skip it, how is that different from not having it (for free) >when the health authority doesn't approve it? You do not appear to have seen the movie or if you did to have paid attention. SignatureGrandpa Chuck -ô¿ô- ~ Americans killed in the occupation of Iraq as of July 30, 2007 is 3,653. United Kingdom = 163 Other = 129. How many more Americans must die to satisfy Bush's ego? Let us all pray for Bush - God knows he needs it! As of July 31, 2007 it has been 1553 days since Bush while standing in front of the banner which was sent to the ship by the White House saying MISSION ACCOMPLISHED declared,"In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed." IOW MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Isn't Bush's "surge" of troops working well? Pay attention to the frequency of American deaths since it began. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, and carrying a cross." --Sinclair Lewis > "Grandpa Chuck" <GrandpaChuck@B4me.org> wrote in message >> United States.... >>> is also the only country where the doctor has to get prior approval >> from an insurance company or anyone else before providing a service to >> a patient regardless of who that person is or their financial status. Chuck, I really doubt you know whether any other countries allow that to happen. In fact, I doubt whether you can name two-thirds of the countries in the world without looking them up. I know I can't and I'm pretty good at geography. In fact, to be accurate, no one can prevent you and your doctor from getting any legal treatment. They may refuse to pay, but it depends on the plan and contract. There are a lot of payers that do not have such restrictions. SignatureWes Groleau Even if you do learn to speak correct English, whom are you going to speak it to? -- Clarence Darrow >> "Grandpa Chuck" <GrandpaChuck@B4me.org> wrote in message >>> United States.... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > it depends on the plan and contract. There are a lot of payers > that do not have such restrictions. Wes - I guess you don't know IF NO ONE WILL PAY, THE PROVIDERS WON'T WORK No physician or hospital will give you anything but the barest emergencey treatment unless they are sure that they will be paid To give you an example: My daughter was in an explosion and had a badly shattered leg. She went to Shock/Trauma, and had it rebuilt, and the shrapnel removed from her - This was covered by Workman's Comp She has to get follow up care A few years ago University of Maryland Hospital's Orthopedic division decided that Workman's Comp doesn't pay well enough, so, when she went for a follow up visit, they fold her to get lost, and be sure not to call ANY ortho in the UMMS system. She HAD insurance, which covered the visit, But the hospital wouldn't accept the payment offered, and wouldn't see her..Workman's comp only pays "reasonable and customary" fees, and the patient can NOT be billed. She is seen at Hainan University Hospital in China. Her insurance doesn't cover it, but the costs are low enough that she can pay them herself. > Wes - I guess you don't know > IF NO ONE WILL PAY, THE PROVIDERS WON'T WORK Ted - I guess you haven't been paying attention. I work for a provider posting payments from payers. I _do_ know about ABNs and up-front discounts and such. I have had four other employers with various sorts of health plans. Some of them have had rather stupid restrictions on treatment. Some have not. > No physician or hospital will give you anything but the barest > emergencey treatment unless they are sure that they will be paid We do our best to ensure payment, up front if possible, but it doesn't always happen. Over the past week, I closed over thirty thousand accounts totaling over eleven million dollars. We NEVER refuse _medical_ treatment. We certainly can and do get paid in advance for _cosmetic_ or _convenience_ treatment. However, none of that has any bearing on what I said. I said: 1. What Chuck complained happens "only in America" probably happens in at least one other place in this big world. 2. And it does not happen in every case in America. SignatureWes Groleau ----------- "Thinking I'm dumb gives people something to feel smug about. Why should I disillusion them?" -- Charles Wallace (in _A_Wrinkle_In_Time_) >> Wes - I guess you don't know >> IF NO ONE WILL PAY, THE PROVIDERS WON'T WORK [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > can and do get paid in advance for _cosmetic_ or _convenience_ > treatment. Many providers do not accept patients without some guarantee of the payment they want - you are an exception.. In another post, I pointed out that my youngest daughter had been injured in an explosion while working. She was treated at Shock/Trauma with no problem, but after the bone healed, she could not g back for follow up visits to her doctor. She WAS covered, but the Orthopedics Department of the University of Maryland won't take non-emergency Workman's Comp cases.They won't say why. She had to find another Ortho, not connected with UMMS. > However, none of that has any bearing on what I said. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > probably happens in at least one other place in > this big world. Of course - no body's perfect, but the preapproval problem and the maze of incomprehensible administrative procedures doesn't EXIST elsewhere. No "in Net" and "out of Net" > 2. And it does not happen in every case in America. agreed, but incredibly often. I need a gall bladder operation (non-emergency) everyone agrees, my insurance agrees, BUT 1) I first need a CAT scan of the abdomen 2) It must be done at a free standing facility, not the hospital ??? WHY . if you pay the same, it would be easier to have it in house where the operation is to be done 3) The Image center won't give me an appointment without a preapproval 4) The insurer won't give ME a preapproval - they want the surgeon to ask 5) The surgeon says they can't get a preapproval without an appointment 6) The insurer sent me to my PCP 7) My PCP sent me back to the insurance company. HE didn't do the original diagnosis, the ER had 8) The insurance company sent me to a NEW surgeon 9) THAT surgeon is on vacation, and I can't even get an appointment assigned for two weeks. The actual appointment will be in a few months. Everyone agrees that the simplest thing is for me to grab my stomach and go into the ER. If it is emergency, they can do it all right away. This so far has taken many many phone calls, and NO ONE, including the claims adjuster, thinks that there is any question that I should have the operation. If you want to know how this will work, ask someone in the military. They are already experiencing "free healthcare." >> Wes - I guess you don't know >> IF NO ONE WILL PAY, THE PROVIDERS WON'T WORK [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > 2. And it does not happen in every case in America. > If you want to know how this will work, ask someone in the military. They > are already experiencing "free healthcare." I spent ten years in the U.S. Navy. Met some decent doctors, dentists, nurses. But I also met some that gave me the impression they joined because they didn't think they could survive private practice. Since getting out (including while in the Reserves) I have seen at least five V.A. doctors in two different states. And several other V.A. support people. I'm sorry to say I can't recommend any award to the best of them, and some of them should not be in health care at all, anywhere. SignatureWes Groleau After the christening of his baby brother in church, Jason sobbed all the way home in the back seat of the car. His father asked him three times what was wrong. Finally, the boy replied, "That preacher said he wanted us brought up in a Christian home, and I wanted to stay with you guys." >> If you want to know how this will work, ask someone in the military. >> They are already experiencing "free healthcare." [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > best of them, and some of them should not be in > health care at all, anywhere. Until the recent problems with major increase in need, and little increase in the VA, the VA had an enviable record of low costs and high results. Not because of state-of-the-art stuff, but because they did a lot of preventative medicine which kept people (diabetics in particular) functioning and not needing hospitalization. But, the VA is only part of military care. My mother has TriCare, which is good just about anywhere Active military are served by outsourced companies like Sierra > Until the recent problems with major increase in need, and little > increase in the VA, the VA had an enviable record of low costs and high > results. Not because of state-of-the-art stuff, but because they did a > lot of preventative medicine which kept people (diabetics in particular) > functioning and not needing hospitalization. Preventive? Like telling me to not test every day? Like not firing a doctor who said an A1c of 8.2 is "excellent" and I should test once a week? Like programming their lab report system to print on every report that an A1c of 7 is "EXCELLANT CONTROL" [sic] ? Like changing thyroid medicine brands without retesting? (And changing them according to numbers the AACE had abandoned years earlier) Like employing a doctor who can tell someone they've never seen before that his chest pain is not cardiac without an examination? Like feeding a diabetic pancakes, orange juice, and two slices of white toast. Oh, it's OK (NOT!) because the jelly had aspartame in it. (And mashed potatoes and a spongy white flour roll for dinner) The V.A. health care system is not the worst the U.S. government has to offer. But it's close. SignatureWes Groleau Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it. -- Robert A. Heinlein >> Until the recent problems with major increase in need, and little >> increase in the VA, the VA had an enviable record of low costs and [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > The V.A. health care system is not the worst the U.S. > government has to offer. But it's close. As usual, people stupidly think that an anecdote is data they also compare a system that they have experience with with one that they are CLUELESS about. >>> Until the recent problems with major increase in need, and little >>> increase in the VA, the VA had an enviable record of low costs and [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >they also compare a system that they have experience with with one that >they are CLUELESS about. As the need for a better Health care system is debated we will see all sorts of claims. I think I see a lot of company executiveas tell us the truth. The health cost is ot of hand and it is doing great damage to our wholw aystwem. The corporate people want out of ealth care. It boils down to the faxtg that any entity or person will abuse the society if they can operate with no external controls. They can be expected to defend their "bird nest on the ground". TGhat is the reason we have a goovermental system of checks and balances. I do expect gross tales and some legit concerns. I expect threats of a strike. The strike would be a very bad idea, Unless there is some basic change it will be a nagging problen after I am gone. I can think of no saolution. But government agencies vs the docs will a more level playing field. Maybe a case of the docs shooting the goose that lays the golden egg. > As usual, people stupidly think that an anecdote is data As usual, Ted replies to messages he appears not to have read. The message was not 'an anecdote,' it was many anecdotes about many incidents, NONE of them praiseworthy, with the V.A. > they also compare a system that they have experience with > with one that they are CLUELESS about. I didn't compare it with anything. I just stated my consistently bad experiences with the system and several of its doctors and other staff. OK, I compared it with the AACE recommendations and other medical literature. I don't think it's accurate to say I'm CLUELESS about things I have read personally. Here's another 'anecdote' for you: In Fort Wayne, they give you free coffee in the lobby. Then when you get to the check-in site for your appointment, if you're paying attention, you see a small note taped to the counter: "Please do not drink coffee before your appointment." SignatureWes Groleau Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it. -- Robert A. Heinlein > > As usual, people stupidly think that an anecdote is data > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > taped to the counter: "Please do not drink coffee > before your appointment." Wes still doesn't know the meaning of the word "anecdote" he thinks that if he simply regurgitates another one, it will somehow make his unsupported ideas mean something. Wes Most diabetics get little or no follow up care, which is why people like glass are so proud of the results he gets, AND, if you are uninsured, you get NO care at all. The VA (until Bush) had a mediocre system of preventative care and follow up - which made it head and shoulders aabove non-VA. YES, SOME doctors and/or HMO's give good care, but they are the exception, not the rule > Wes still doesn't know the meaning of the word "anecdote" he thinks that > if he simply regurgitates another one, it will somehow make his > unsupported ideas mean something. Ted still thinks he can read minds when he has trouble reading print. I made no claim that my personal experience is universally true of the V.A. I do claim that 1. My personal experience with the V.A. is universally bad. 2. I highly doubt that Ted's personal experience is adequate support for a claim that the V.A.'s health care is good. SignatureWes Groleau "Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. But I'm not so sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein >> Wes still doesn't know the meaning of the word "anecdote" he thinks >> that if he simply regurgitates another one, it will somehow make his [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > 1. My personal experience with the V.A. is universally bad. possibly - no argument > 2. I highly doubt that Ted's personal experience is adequate > support for a claim that the V.A.'s health care is good. I have no personal experience with the VA - I read STUDIES with DATA in them, not anecdotes. >>> Wes still doesn't know the meaning of the word "anecdote" he thinks >>> that if he simply regurgitates another one, it will somehow make his [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >I have no personal experience with the VA - I read STUDIES with DATA in >them, not anecdotes. We also read here many studies full of DATA that are total crap. Ted, anecdotes are not data (well, actually they are if you are studying anecdotes:-) but data is only as good as the quality of the information collected. Data is also a very questionable source if the wrong questions are asked, the wrong hypotheses posed or the wrong interpretations made. Just look at the recent "study" posted in the BMJ concerning the validity of SMBG as one example of far too many. Further, statistics give general results, not specifics. You, more than most, should be able to accept that there are numbers outside the 95% confidence levels, even some outside 99.99% - your only argument should be whether Wes' experience is in that region. Personal experiences form part of a valid commentary and assessment on all things affecting the human experience. That includes a commentary on health care. The fact that it is not "data" by your definition does not invalidate it. What happened to Wes is what happened; he "just stated my consistently bad experiences with the system and several of its doctors and other staff". You have no cause to question his veracity. Nor does it justify the vitriolic response you've given Wes, who is one of the good guys here despite your difference of opinion on this subject. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraltraveloz.blogspot.com/ latest: Mossman Gorge in the Daintree Rainforest http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/ latest: Self-Testing and Type 2 Management > Personal experiences form part of a valid commentary and > assessment on all things affecting the human experience. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > you've given Wes, who is one of the good guys here despite > your difference of opinion on this subject. And, for what it's worth, I did not report _merely_ my "anecdotal experience" I pointed out the V.A.'s POLICY that diabetics on insulin should test BG once every other day. I pointed out the V.A.'s POLICY that lab reports should define A1c as 8.0 - GOOD CONTROL 7.0 - EXCELLANT CONTROL [sic] SignatureWes Groleau A UNIX signature isn't a return address, it's the ASCII equivalent of a black velvet clown painting. It's a rectangle of carets surrounding a quote from a literary giant of weeniedom like Heinlein or Dr. Who. -- Chris Maeda Ha, ha, Dr. ..... Who's Chris Maeda? -- Wes Groleau >> Personal experiences form part of a valid commentary and >> assessment on all things affecting the human experience. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > 8.0 - GOOD CONTROL > 7.0 - EXCELLANT CONTROL [sic] Hell, those standards are at least ten years behind the times. That's about where they were when I was first diagnosed in '96. Even then my doc said they were outdated. SignatureGrandpa Chuck -ô¿ô- ~ Americans killed in the occupation of Iraq as of August 06, 2007 is 3,679. United Kingdom = 165 Other = 129. How many more Americans must die to satisfy Bush's ego? Let us all pray for Bush - God knows he needs it! As of Augest 07, 2007 it has been 1560 days since Bush while standing in front of the banner which was sent to the ship by the White House saying MISSION ACCOMPLISHED declared,"In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed." IOW MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Isn't Bush's "surge" of troops working well? Pay attention to the frequency of American deaths since it began. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, and carrying a cross." --Sinclair Lewis > >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > doc said they were outdated. > Didi you read what Glass was bragging about? Of course the VA is well behind the time, but at least they check more often than not. > >> [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > latest: Self-Testing and Type 2 Management > Alan, it is not that 6the VA is that great, it is that the REST of the medical system is incredibly bad > Alan, it is not that 6the VA is that great, it is that the REST of the > medical system is incredibly bad I can only halfway agree with that. There are some incredibly bad things going on in the medical system. There are also some good things. Neither supports your earlier claim that > the VA had an enviable record of low costs and high results. > Not because of state-of-the-art stuff, but because they did > a lot of preventative medicine which kept people (diabetics > in particular) functioning and not needing hospitalization. Once I had learned just a little about diabetes, I began composing a letter to my Congressman complaining of 1. The treatment/advice that seemed aimed at getting me (a veteran) into the hospital sooner 2. The amount of money that I (a taxpayer) would spend on treatment of complications in veterans who wouldn't or couldn't educate themselves on better ways. I shamefacedly confess I never finished the letter. SignatureWes Groleau In any formula, constants (especially those obtained from handbooks) are to be treated as variables. >If you want to know how this will work, ask someone in the military. They >are already experiencing "free healthcare." Yep, and the scandals have been brought to the public's attention recently. Why has it deteriorated so much? Easy to answer: the Bush administration has cut funding to our vets by millions of dollars. BTW, people incarcerated in this country generally get better medical care than do the poor and near poor in this country. SignatureGrandpa Chuck -ô¿ô- ~ Americans killed in the occupation of Iraq as of August 05, 2007 is 3,669. United Kingdom = 164 Other = 129. How many more Americans must die to satisfy Bush's ego? Let us all pray for Bush - God knows he needs it! As of Augest 05, 2007 it has been 1558 days since Bush while standing in front of the banner which was sent to the ship by the White House saying MISSION ACCOMPLISHED declared,"In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed." IOW MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Isn't Bush's "surge" of troops working well? Pay attention to the frequency of American deaths since it began. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, and carrying a cross." --Sinclair Lewis Troly god post, Ted ! There are several countries in the world that appear as beacons of humanity in healthcare, usually in specialising areas. India, Roumania and to a lesser extent, France come to mind (lots of Brits from the UK come to France for healthcare. They pay less, have less waiting times and are very satisfed with the treatment. Same is true of the other countries cited. India is so attractive that people make a holiday out of it at the same time. Romania is a leading country in dental care ... very cheap, very good and very popular (especially with Germans). "ted rosenberg" <tedrosenberg@iname.com> a écrit ... >>> "Grandpa Chuck" <GrandpaChuck@B4me.org> wrote in message >>>> United States.... [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > She is seen at Hainan University Hospital in China. Her insurance doesn't > cover it, but the costs are low enough that she can pay them herself. >> "Grandpa Chuck" <GrandpaChuck@B4me.org> wrote in message >>> United States.... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >it depends on the plan and contract. There are a lot of payers >that do not have such restrictions. Wes, I was talking about western developed nations. SignatureGrandpa Chuck -ô¿ô- ~ Americans killed in the occupation of Iraq as of July 30, 2007 is 3,653. United Kingdom = 163 Other = 129. How many more Americans must die to satisfy Bush's ego? Let us all pray for Bush - God knows he needs it! As of July 31, 2007 it has been 1553 days since Bush while standing in front of the banner which was sent to the ship by the White House saying MISSION ACCOMPLISHED declared,"In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed." IOW MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Isn't Bush's "surge" of troops working well? Pay attention to the frequency of American deaths since it began. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, and carrying a cross." --Sinclair Lewis How can you claim to be "prettty good" at geography if you can't name countries ? "Wes Groleau" <groleau+news@freeshell.org> a écrit ... >> "Grandpa Chuck" <GrandpaChuck@B4me.org> wrote in message >>> United States.... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > it depends on the plan and contract. There are a lot of payers > that do not have such restrictions. > How can you claim to be "prettty good" at geography if you can't name > countries ? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> it depends on the plan and contract. There are a lot of payers >> that do not have such restrictions. SignatureWes Groleau http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau/Wes > How can you claim to be "prettty good" at geography if you can't name > countries ? Last time I tried, I was able to name 250 without checking any book or map. But that took a while, and I'm certain I didn't get them all. Some of those 250 no longer exist, and there are some now that did not exist then. The point is that it takes a heck of a lot of knowledge to say one of our common health care patterns occurs NOWHERE in the other 95% of the world. SignatureWes Groleau You always have time for what you do first. Nope. Sorry. You got me there - I don"t understand your argument as to WHY you think you are good at geography though you think you can name 250 countries (when there are only about 200 in the world). If you had said you could LOCATE xxx countries, I'd have understood. OK, I'll drop it ... "Wes Groleau" <groleau+news@freeshell.org> a écrit ... >> How can you claim to be "prettty good" at geography if you can't name >> countries ? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > to say one of our common health care patterns occurs > NOWHERE in the other 95% of the world. > You got me there - I don"t understand your argument as to > WHY you think you are good at geography though you think > you can name 250 countries (when there are only about 200 > in the world). Maybe it was 150. It was a long time ago. > If you had said you could LOCATE xxx countries, I'd have > understood. I can locate any I can think of the names of. > OK, I'll drop it ... Hey, if you need an ego boost, fire away. SignatureWes Groleau ----------- "Thinking I'm dumb gives people something to feel smug about. Why should I disillusion them?" -- Charles Wallace (in _A_Wrinkle_In_Time_) > Hello dear friends, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > -ô¿ô- > ~ Couple of questions and a thought or two Chuck; I've read through the complete thread and you say that healthcare should be free. No matter what source healthcare comes from it won't be free. Someone will be paying, either directly or through taxes. How much of your income are you willing to ante up for "Free Healthcare?" Who should run this magical Healthcare organization? I take it you think the government should be in charge. Name one federal agency that does an excellent job. I can't think of any I would trust to manage a program like that. But heck, let FEMA have it! I wonder how many GS14's will be needed for this outfit! I agree that changes need to be made, dollars collected by insurance are eaten away by the insurance companies mass so little is left for direct care. I agree that the ill of body or mind who are not capable of work should be provided care. However, if a person is capable of work and refuses to do so and lives off the public dole then I have little sympathy. Individuals must be responsible for their actions or lack of action. I also admit that I don't have the answers, but I really don't think that "Free Healthcare" is the answer. RB The complete thread was not on my newserver so I posted through Google > >> Hello dear friends, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > you willing to ante up for "Free Healthcare?" > probably little or none - currently US healthcare is SO bad and SO inefficient that the per capita cost the federal government pays for health care is greater than the per capita cost for any country which provides universal heath care. as much as 80% of the health care dollar goees to sales and administratiom. The medicare admin costs are about 4%, VA less. > Who should run this magical Healthcare organization? I take it you > think the government should be in charge. Name one federal agency > that does an excellent job. I can't think of any I would trust to > manage a program like that. CMS is currently doing an excellent job > But heck, let FEMA have it! I wonder how > many GS14's will be needed for this outfit! > > GE$E I asume that you8r ignorant brain thought that was funny > I agree that changes need to be made, dollars collected by insurance > are eaten away by the insurance companies mass so little is left for [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > THAT isn't the problem - the problem is people who ARE working > I also admit that I don't have the answers, but I really don't think > that "Free Healthcare" is the answer. > > RB > > The complete thread was not on my newserver so I posted through Google >>> Hello dear friends, >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > goees to sales and administratiom. The medicare admin costs are about 4%, > VA less. Ted, if you think there will not be a tax impact then I think your overly optimistic. Someone will have to manage the program. Those of us paying taxes will fund it. From what has been in the news about healhtcare (or lack of) in the VA system recently I think I'll take a pass. >> Who should run this magical Healthcare organization? I take it you >> think the government should be in charge. Name one federal agency >> that does an excellent job. I can't think of any I would trust to >> manage a program like that. > CMS is currently doing an excellent job Ok, I'll bite, who is CMS? What job are they doing so well now? >> But heck, let FEMA have it! I wonder how >> many GS14's will be needed for this outfit! [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> are eaten away by the insurance companies mass so little is left for >> direct care. No realistic, employees of the government are paid pretty well. GS-14 is a paygrade and any agency that manages healthcare administration will be loaded with them, Lower grades mostly but it will not be a cheap operation. >> I agree that the ill of body or mind who are not capable of work >> should be provided care. However, if a person is capable of work and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> > THAT isn't the problem - the problem is people who ARE working No both working and non working people are the problem. Someone will pay for the non-working as is done now. Those who work will have access but taxes will fund it. Ted, why so angry? I posted civily, without name calling. Try to show some maturity! RB >> I also admit that I don't have the answers, but I really don't think >> that "Free Healthcare" is the answer. >> >> RB >> >> The complete thread was not on my newserver so I posted through Google >>>> Hello dear friends, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >taxes will fund it. From what has been in the news about healhtcare (or >lack of) in the VA system recently I think I'll take a pass. What percent of our national defense budget will it take to operate such a system? We don't need to have a defense department that spends more than all other nations in the world combined. >>> Who should run this magical Healthcare organization? I take it you >>> think the government should be in charge. Name one federal agency [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >>> >>> The complete thread was not on my newserver so I posted through Google SignatureGrandpa Chuck -ô¿ô- ~ Americans killed in the occupation of Iraq as of July 30, 2007 is 3,653. United Kingdom = 163 Other = 129. How many more Americans must die to satisfy Bush's ego? Let us all pray for Bush - God knows he needs it! As of July 31, 2007 it has been 1553 days since Bush while standing in front of the banner which was sent to the ship by the White House saying MISSION ACCOMPLISHED declared,"In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed." IOW MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Isn't Bush's "surge" of troops working well? Pay attention to the frequency of American deaths since it began. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, and carrying a cross." --Sinclair Lewis > Ok, I'll bite, who is CMS? What job are they doing so well now? Medicare. I can imagine better, but I've definitely seen much worse. SignatureWes Groleau ----------- Daily Hoax: http://www.snopes2.com/cgi-bin/random/random.asp >> Hello dear friends, >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >paying, either directly or through taxes. How much of your income are >you willing to ante up for "Free Healthcare?" Whatever it takes so long as we don't have to pay any insurance premiums and everyone pays the same amount. >Who should run this magical Healthcare organization? I take it you >think the government should be in charge. Name one federal agency >that does an excellent job. I can't think of any I would trust to >manage a program like that. But heck, let FEMA have it! I wonder how >many GS14's will be needed for this outfit! If we can't look at other countries that have national health care systems and do it even better then this country has become a third world nation. >I agree that changes need to be made, dollars collected by insurance >are eaten away by the insurance companies mass so little is left for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >sympathy. Individuals must be responsible for their actions or lack >of action. And who decides exactly who they are? >I also admit that I don't have the answers, but I really don't think >that "Free Healthcare" is the answer. Did you see the movie? >RB > >The complete thread was not on my newserver so I posted through Google SignatureGrandpa Chuck -ô¿ô- ~ Americans killed in the occupation of Iraq as of July 30, 2007 is 3,653. United Kingdom = 163 Other = 129. How many more Americans must die to satisfy Bush's ego? Let us all pray for Bush - God knows he needs it! As of July 31, 2007 it has been 1553 days since Bush while standing in front of the banner which was sent to the ship by the White House saying MISSION ACCOMPLISHED declared,"In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed." IOW MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Isn't Bush's "surge" of troops working well? Pay attention to the frequency of American deaths since it began. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, and carrying a cross." --Sinclair Lewis > Hello dear friends, > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, and carrying a cross." --Sinclair > Lewis It is too bad that Michael Moore doesn't produce documentaries. It would make the issues, and his position, more useful to the cause. Mr. Moore did not inform my opinion on the medical situation. I do like the fact that Moore has made it a major issue. Other factors like the head of GM, saying they cannot afford to finance the plans any more, is more important. The medical profession represents it's self well. And the cost of medical care is almost out of hand. Too many are finding they cannot get medical insurance If they can get it they cannot pay the premiums. Others deliberately do not get insurance knowing they can get care of some form. This AM I heard a report that a majority of personal bankruptcies are related to illness. I would like to make a million each year and I could write a rationalization justifying that. The point is that is a fair way of allocating the GNP. IN the 30's the docs had to accept chickens at times. No matter what anyone says, the situation will be corrected. Mother nature is known to be a hard way to go. I know a young lady that did not make Medical school last year. She is going oversea now. A major problem with any change is shown by the Medicare D legislation. >> Hello dear friends, >> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >It is too bad that Michael Moore doesn't produce documentaries. It >would make the issues, and his position, more useful to the cause. >It is too bad that Michael Moore doesn't produce documentaries. It >would make the issues, and his position, more useful to the cause. I know you trolled me with that sentence, but I will answer you anyway. Why do you claim his movie is not a documentary? SignatureGrandpa Chuck -ô¿ô- ~ Americans killed in the occupation of Iraq as of August 05, 2007 is 3,670. United Kingdom = 164 Other = 129. How many more Americans must die to satisfy Bush's ego? Let us all pray for Bush - God knows he needs it! As of Augest 06, 2007 it has been 1559 days since Bush while standing in front of the banner which was sent to the ship by the White House saying MISSION ACCOMPLISHED declared,"In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed." IOW MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Isn't Bush's "surge" of troops working well? Pay attention to the frequency of American deaths since it began. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, and carrying a cross." --Sinclair Lewis Grandpa Chuck wrote in message ... >I know you trolled me with that sentence, but I will answer you >anyway. Why do you claim his movie is not a documentary? >-- > >Grandpa Chuck > -ô¿ô- I haven't seen the movie, so I won't comment on it, but he has been making sense in some of his interviews. Cheri >Grandpa Chuck wrote in message ... > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Cheri I urge you to take the time to see it. You will not be sorry. SignatureGrandpa Chuck -ô¿ô- ~ Americans killed in the occupation of Iraq as of August 05, 2007 is 3,670. United Kingdom = 164 Other = 129. How many more Americans must die to satisfy Bush's ego? Let us all pray for Bush - God knows he needs it! As of Augest 06, 2007 it has been 1559 days since Bush while standing in front of the banner which was sent to the ship by the White House saying MISSION ACCOMPLISHED declared,"In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed." IOW MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Isn't Bush's "surge" of troops working well? Pay attention to the frequency of American deaths since it began. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, and carrying a cross." --Sinclair Lewis Grandpa Chuck wrote in message <5dgfb3t4pesbbn0qechlh6nl30p9idk83u@4ax.com>... >>Grandpa Chuck wrote in message ... >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >>Cheri When it comes out on video, I will. I have seen all of his movies. I particularly liked Roger and me. I don't really go to movies anymore, they put me to sleep, so I rent what I want to see, and then when I fall asleep, I can restart them. :-) Cheri |
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