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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / June 2007

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Red, red wine revisited

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Alan S - 22 Jun 2007 08:34 GMT
Now I have another Aussie agreeing with me:-)

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/6/1545
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 85, No. 6,
1545-1551, June 2007
© 2007 American Society for Nutrition

Effect of alcoholic beverages on postprandial glycemia and
insulinemia in lean, young, healthy adults

Jennie C Brand-Miller, Kaniz Fatima, Christopher Middlemiss,
Marian Bare, Vicki Liu, Fiona Atkinson and Peter Petocz

"Conclusion:In realistic settings, alcoholic beverage
consumption lowers postprandial glycemia by 16–37%, which
represents an unrecognized mechanism by which alcohol may
reduce the risk of chronic disease."

Admittedly, not a study on diabetics.


Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Slovenia
Nicky - 22 Jun 2007 09:01 GMT
>Now I have another Aussie agreeing with me:-)
>
>http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/6/1545
>American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 85, No. 6,
>1545-1551, June 2007
>© 2007 American Society for Nutrition

Short enough to reproduce the meat of it:
"Design: In study 1, isoenergetic (1000 kJ) servings of beer, white
wine, and gin were compared with a 1000-kJ portion of white bread. In
study 2, the same servings were compared with water as an
accompaniment to a bread meal. In study 3, 20-g alcohol portions were
served as a premeal drink. Fingertip capillary blood samples were
taken at regular intervals over 2–3 h.

Results: In study 1, the mean (±SE) glucose scores for beer (58 ± 11),
wine (7 ± 3), and gin (10 ± 5) were significantly lower (P < 0.001)
than those for bread (= 100). In study 2, meals consumed with beer (84
± 11; P = 0.03), wine (63 ± 6; P < 0.001), and gin (80 ± 12; P =
0.007) produced less glycemia than did the meal consumed with water (=
100). In study 3, all 3 beverages reduced the postprandial glycemic
response to the subsequent meal (67 ± 5, 75 ± 6, and 78 ± 4 with the
beer, wine, and gin trials, respectively; P < 0.003)."

A bit difficult figuring out what's going on with 3 studies, but I
THINK that says that you get a better pp reading by taking a drink an
hour before as opposed to with the meal - have I interpreted that
right?

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.6%  BMI 25
Alan S - 22 Jun 2007 10:06 GMT
>>Now I have another Aussie agreeing with me:-)
>>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>D&E, 100ug thyroxine
>Last A1c 5.6%  BMI 25

It's a bit obscure. See if this Reuters article, which
appears to have access to the full report, sheds any light
on it:

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSCOL15805420070621

"The team first tested the effect of drinking beer, white
wine, or gin compared to eating the equivalent amount of
calories in carbohydrate. Each of the alcoholic beverages
produced a smaller rise in blood sugar than the bread, while
insulin response to the drinks was also lower than to the
bread, according to the report.

In the next experiment, the researcher found that blood
sugar rose less when any of the alcoholic beverages were
consumed with the bread compared to eating bread with water.
Wine had the strongest effect, while the effect of beer was
the weakest.

In a third situation, when study participants drank before a
meal -- specifically, the equivalent of about two drinks of
beer, wine or gin an hour before eating a meal of instant
mashed potatoes -- the post-meal blood glucose increase also
was lower than when they drank water."

"also was lower" doesn't really clarify it for me.

I'll continue to have a glass or two of red with and after
the meal. That's total, not cumulative, but it adds to the
glass with lunch:-)


Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Slovenia
GysdeJongh - 22 Jun 2007 11:52 GMT
> A bit difficult figuring out what's going on with 3 studies, but I
> THINK that says that you get a better pp reading by taking a drink an
> hour before as opposed to with the meal - have I interpreted that
> right?

Hi Nicky,
if you look at the data than that is exacly what happens .The effect is also
significant , judged from the graphs they give.Strangely enough the authors
do not comment on the effect in their conclusion.They do state :

"By themselves, the alcoholic beverages produced much less glycemia than did
an isoenergetic portion of a starchy food. The physiologic basis of these
findings is likely to be ethanol's ability to acutely inhibit
gluconeogenesis and hepatic glucose output (12). Reducing postprandial
hyperglycemia may therefore be an additional mechanism, hitherto
unrecognized, through which moderate alcohol consumption may improve glucose
homeostasis and consequently lower the risk of chronic disease."

So for them the effect seems more "acute" ??

hth
Gys
Nicky - 22 Jun 2007 22:41 GMT
>> A bit difficult figuring out what's going on with 3 studies, but I
>> THINK that says that you get a better pp reading by taking a drink an
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>So for them the effect seems more "acute" ??

Hmmm. It's news to the medical profession that alcohol turns off the
liver's ability to do a dump? They need more diabetics doing research!

Well, I generally start cooking about an hour before supper. I guess I
could have a glass of wine then - but it might cause severe
deterioration to the quality of the food : )

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.6%  BMI 25
Peter C - 22 Jun 2007 12:42 GMT
Seems to suggest that the alcohol means the "fit, lean, healthy young
Adults" were not getting the full nutritional value of what they were
eating. If the alcohol reduced the glucose available to them would that mean
they would get hungrier sooner and have to make up the 16% deficiency in
energy caused by the alcohol ?
Will, T2 - 22 Jun 2007 14:02 GMT
>Results: In study 1, the mean (±SE) glucose scores for beer (58 ± 11),
>wine (7 ± 3), and gin (10 ± 5) were significantly lower (P < 0.001)
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>D&E, 100ug thyroxine
>Last A1c 5.6%  BMI 25

I tend to have a moderate drink, or two about an hour before  dinner,
and also during dinner. Frequently, it is one or two dry gin martinis
before dinner, and a glass of nice dry red wine with dinner,
preferably an Australian Shiraz, or a French Cabernet....

By embracing such a pleasant regimen, engaging in moderate exercise,
and keeping my weight down with a low carb diet and calorie and
portion control... I have even been able to go off the metformin and
still wake up on most days to a BG of less than 100... Today, even
though I am still sick, it was 97. Of course, with antibiotics, I
avoided the spirits last night.

I have noticed, however,  that illness makes my blood glucose more
difficult to control for some reason....

Will, T2
Jefferson - 23 Jun 2007 01:28 GMT
Hi Nicky:

> A bit difficult figuring out what's going on with 3 studies, but I
> THINK that says that you get a better pp reading by taking a drink an
> hour before as opposed to with the meal - have I interpreted that
> right?

This article gives some clues. The full article is available with this link.

Effect of ‘pre-dinner drinks’ on postprandial glycemia and insulinemia
in lean young adults -
http://www.healthyeatingclub.com/APJCN/ProcNutSoc/2000+/2005/114.pdf

"The study suggests that ‘pre-dinner’ drinks lower the glycaemic
response to a meal by increasing insulin secretion and/or insulin
sensitivity. Reducing glucose ‘spikes’ and overall postprandial glycemia
may be one mechanism by which alcohol consumption reduces risk of type 2
diabetes and cardiovascular disease."

Obviously this conclusion would not be valid for a type 1 DM.

Frank
Nicky - 23 Jun 2007 09:41 GMT
>Effect of ‘pre-dinner drinks’ on postprandial glycemia and insulinemia
>in lean young adults -
>http://www.healthyeatingclub.com/APJCN/ProcNutSoc/2000+/2005/114.pdf

Thanks, Frank. Those guys have a very strange idea of civilised meal
times: "A standard breakfast was consumed at 8 am, followed by the
‘pre-dinner’ drinks at 10 am and the standard lunch meal at 11 am."

I wonder if their findings were confounded by either swilling alcohol
on top of breakfast, or by taking it at a time when insulin resistance
would be naturally high.

I'm not terribly inclined to have my glass of wine with my breakfast
flaxmeal, but it does look like that would be the most efficient
time... I've never been any good after a lunchtime drink either. So it
looks like I'm committed to alcohol at the least efficient time. Tant
pis!

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.6%  BMI 25
Peter C - 24 Jun 2007 15:55 GMT
>>Effect of 'pre-dinner drinks' on postprandial glycemia and insulinemia
>>in lean young adults -
>>http://www.healthyeatingclub.com/APJCN/ProcNutSoc/2000+/2005/114.pdf
>
> Thanks, Frank. Those guys have a very strange idea of civilised meal
> times:

....and an absurd idea of what constitutes an acceptable scientific study
....only 18 subjects in it, LOL.
Don't reach for the corkscrew just yet if you are lean, healthy, young
adult.
Nicky - 24 Jun 2007 16:12 GMT
>Don't reach for the corkscrew just yet if you are lean, healthy, young
>adult.

Actually, I make frequent use of the corkscrew, and I meet the above
criteria (loosely, anyway...). If I'd get more health benefit by
having an aperitif instead of drinking with my meal - I might be
interested.

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.6%  BMI 25
johnniemccoy@ - 25 Jun 2007 04:58 GMT
>>Don't reach for the corkscrew just yet if you are lean, healthy, young
>>adult.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Nicky.

Keep drinkin, Nicky. Booze makes women interesting.

Read my latest book:
"How To Get Lucky With Women Who Don't Drink."

John
www.askunclejohn.com
johnniemccoy@ - 25 Jun 2007 05:05 GMT
>>>Don't reach for the corkscrew just yet if you are lean, healthy, young
>>>adult.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> John
> www.askunclejohn.com

Actually, My days off, I drink 2 of the small bottles of Merlot with dinner
(each bottle will only fill 1 good sized wine glass). I don't bother taking
my bg afterwards cause I know the alcohol is going to screw up the results.
And, of course, on Mondays I drink a few Michelob Ultra Lights (3 carbs a
bottle - that's the beer that tastes like cat piss) while I grill out at
midnight and annoy the neighbors with loud music.

John
Nicky - 25 Jun 2007 08:57 GMT
>Keep drinkin, Nicky. Booze makes women interesting.
>
>Read my latest book:
>"How To Get Lucky With Women Who Don't Drink."

I'm married, John :D

You know that song from Fiddler on the Roof? - For 25 years I've
washed your socks - if that's not love, what is?" : )

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.6%  BMI 25
Susan - 22 Jun 2007 13:46 GMT
> "Conclusion:In realistic settings, alcoholic beverage
> consumption lowers postprandial glycemia by 16–37%, which
> represents an unrecognized mechanism by which alcohol may
> reduce the risk of chronic disease."
>
> Admittedly, not a study on diabetics.

Yet a plausible explanatin for the French paradox.

Susan
Help! My igloo's on FIRE! - 22 Jun 2007 14:46 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Susan

The French Paradox is only "parodoxical" to someone who has little
experience of French life. I lived there for several years and see no paradox.

The issue is that those who regard it as a paradox assume that the French
eat things that are considered negative in the same quantities that
Americans etc., do.  They don't, they exercise self control, small
portions,  small packaging and serving sizes etc., and they get more
exercise. Any other western nation could also do this but don't. The French
aren't fat, lazy over indulgent pigs, and they regard treats as special,
not as daily sustenance the way other countries do.

There is no paradox. French women are slim and attractive, French children
are well behaved and grow up into adults who have self discipline. It isn't
their diet, it is their attitudes to life. Go back a hundred years or so
and most of the current west had the same thing. New age BS thinking
destroyed it, except for the French.

The biggest difference that I see is the French have set mealtimes, healthy
servings sizes, and don't tend to snack between meals like Americans.

Certainly red wince is healthy, but just like in other countries, many
French prefer sugar laden white or sparkling wines.

Eskimo Joe
dumb_fishie99@yahoo.com - 22 Jun 2007 15:47 GMT
>The French Paradox is only "parodoxical" to someone who has little
>experience of French life. I lived there for several years and see no paradox.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>Certainly red wince is healthy, but just like in other countries, many
>French prefer sugar laden white or sparkling wines.

And they are so well loved too......not.....

oh yeah, I am allowed to say that because I'm descended from them.
Frank T2 - 30 Jun 2007 01:43 GMT
"Help! My igloo's on FIRE!" <p@nic.net> a écrit ...
>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> Certainly red wince is healthy, but just like in other countries, many
> French prefer sugar laden white or sparkling wines.

This is an honest resumé of french life style from Eskimo Joe.

I have been living in France for some 35 years now, and have
had the time to judge.
Help! My igloo's on FIRE! - 30 Jun 2007 03:31 GMT
> "Help! My igloo's on FIRE!" <p@nic.net> a écrit ...
>>> x-no-archive: yes
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> I have been living in France for some 35 years now, and have
> had the time to judge.

I didn't realise that you were in France, not having had reason to look at
your headers.

Versailles is a nice area, I have visited there, but most of my time was in
the south. It was quite a while back, Françoise Hardy and the Yé-yé craze
was top of the pops so that gives you an idea of the time frame. I still
visit on occasion, I have a daughter who lives there.

I have some very fond memories, particularly of my last year there as a
teenager. Actually spent between France, Germany, and London but mostly
exploring rural France (and a rather delightful Swiss girl:) ). I had a
little Alpha 1600 GTV and no parental restrictions. ;) I returned to
Australia at the end of that year and decided to let the Navy pay for my
tertiary education.

I often wonder what would have happened if I had stayed. Returning was a
close decision. My family lived in England for much of the fifties and we
spent several months each year in southern France - I loved the place.

David - (Eskimo Joe)
Frank T2 - 30 Jun 2007 22:01 GMT
My second wife loves it too.
(She's from Yaroslavl and often says I saved her life)

It's such a free-feeling country (the French have a saying,
"The Presidents job is so easy, 56 million Frenchmen all
thinking THEY run the country")

It is one of the most hedonistic societies I know of ...
comaprable to the Etruscans, I think, so it won't be much
longer before some envious person tries to break it up.

"Help! My igloo's on FIRE!" <p@nic.net> a écrit ...
>> "Help! My igloo's on FIRE!" <p@nic.net> a écrit ...
>>>> x-no-archive: yes
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
>
> David - (Eskimo Joe)
Will, T2 - 30 Jun 2007 22:07 GMT
>It's such a free-feeling country (the French have a saying,
>"The Presidents job is so easy, 56 million Frenchmen all
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>comaprable to the Etruscans, I think, so it won't be much
>longer before some envious person tries to break it up.

Sounds like Paradise, Frank...
'
Will, T2
Will, T2 - 30 Jun 2007 22:14 GMT
>It is one of the most hedonistic societies I know of ...
>>comaprable to the Etruscans, I think, so it won't be much
>>longer before some envious person tries to break it up.

Please, just keep the neocon zagnuts out... Just a suggestion.

Will, T2
W. Baker - 22 Jun 2007 22:00 GMT
: Now I have another Aussie agreeing with me:-)

: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/6/1545
: American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 85, No. 6,
: 1545-1551, June 2007
: ?? 2007 American Society for Nutrition

: Effect of alcoholic beverages on postprandial glycemia and
: insulinemia in lean, young, healthy adults

: Jennie C Brand-Miller, Kaniz Fatima, Christopher Middlemiss,
: Marian Bare, Vicki Liu, Fiona Atkinson and Peter Petocz

: "Conclusion:In realistic settings, alcoholic beverage
: consumption lowers postprandial glycemia by 16???37%, which
: represents an unrecognized mechanism by which alcohol may
: reduce the risk of chronic disease."

: Admittedly, not a study on diabetics.

:  
: Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
: http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/ 
: latest: Slovenia

Well, last night I wnet to big Jewish wedding and that means FOOD!! There
was lots of diabetic friendly stuff  boh tat teh smorgasbord adn the
dinner, which I stuck to pretty well( I di dhave a few Chinese dumplings
adn a cracker at the dinner.)  It still was a large amount of food.  In
the cousre of the over 4 hours I was there I consumed, in addition to my
Starlix for insurance, 3 glasses of dry red Merlot.  when I got home, well
less than 2 hours after the meal my BG was at 93!  In the morning my FBG
was 91, about average for my numbers the last few weeks.  Now this eating
took place over a very long period of time, but I think that wine really
helped and didn't give me a rebound in teh morning.  

I did get on the scale to not play ostritch, and I had gained aobut 3 lbs,
most of which I epect wil come off in the next day or so.  

It was a great wedding!!! the groom had been one of my volunteers at food
and clothing drives from the age of 8 and his parents are also drivers for
these drives, takign the stuff to the places we donate to.  I di dso some
active circle dancing, bu tonly sporatically as my sciatica kept kicking
up.

Wendy
dumb_fishie99@yahoo.com - 22 Jun 2007 22:42 GMT
The best wedding I ever went to was a lesbian
wedding, conducted by a voodoo priestess.
An Elvis impersonator presided over the
entertainment.
Alan S - 22 Jun 2007 23:35 GMT
>The best wedding I ever went to was a lesbian
>wedding, conducted by a voodoo priestess.
>An Elvis impersonator presided over the
>entertainment.

That does cause me to wonder what the worst wedding you went
to was...


Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Slovenia
dumb_fishie99@yahoo.com - 23 Jun 2007 02:08 GMT
>>The best wedding I ever went to was a lesbian
>>wedding, conducted by a voodoo priestess.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>That does cause me to wonder what the worst wedding you went
>to was...

Ummm....it was a Mormon weddng redeption.  We weren't
allowed at the ceremony of course.  Food was tunafish
on crackers.  Music was the Village People's "YMCA."
Alan S - 23 Jun 2007 02:23 GMT
>>>The best wedding I ever went to was a lesbian
>>>wedding, conducted by a voodoo priestess.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>allowed at the ceremony of course.  Food was tunafish
>on crackers.  Music was the Village People's "YMCA."

My most interesting, but not "worst", was at the
headquarters of the NSW SDA, at Cooranbong in the late '80s.
The reception was actually in a large room under the nave of
the church, and the menu was totally vegetarian and
non-alcohilic.

First place I ever drank a quasi-champagne made from
carbonated non-fermented grape juice. Also the last place:-)

The wedding photographer was Michael Chamberlain. Aussies
will know who I mean; maybe others who watched "Evil Angels"
will too. It was an intersting day.


Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Slovenia
dumb_fishie99@yahoo.com - 24 Jun 2007 16:53 GMT
>My most interesting, but not "worst", was at the
>headquarters of the NSW SDA, at Cooranbong in the late '80s.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>will know who I mean; maybe others who watched "Evil Angels"
>will too. It was an intersting day.

I don;t know him, nor "Evil Angels"  When I got cable
I started watching only films. I'm totally out of touch
with TV pop culture.

wel...the lesbian weddng may not sound so good
to you, but it was a riot.
Alan S - 25 Jun 2007 00:36 GMT
>>My most interesting, but not "worst", was at the
>>headquarters of the NSW SDA, at Cooranbong in the late '80s.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>wel...the lesbian weddng may not sound so good
>to you, but it was a riot.

I'm sure it was:-)

Just for info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azaria_Chamberlain_disappearance
"Evil Angels" was a movie about the case, starring Meryl
Streep with one of the worst Aussie accents on film.

Michael was a nice guy when I met him; one felt for him and
the way that night changed his life forever. But the wedding
in the SDA cellar was fascinating.


Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraltraveloz.blogspot.com/
latest: Up to Kuranda by train
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Slovenia
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
latest: Jennifer's Story
Alan S - 22 Jun 2007 23:35 GMT
>: Now I have another Aussie agreeing with me:-)
>
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
>Wendy

Sounds like you had a wonderful time. Of course, the wine
may have had a bit to do with that too, not just with
Bg's:-)


Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Slovenia
ray - 23 Jun 2007 02:18 GMT
> Now I have another Aussie agreeing with me:-)
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
> Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

I'd still stick with the 'dry' drinks. I do a martini, maybe a scotch on
occassion, or a Merlot or Cabernet.
 
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