Insulin Question......

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Saxology - 18 Dec 2006 23:47 GMT

Sorry that I haven't lurked in a while so I am out of synch with the group.
I have a question triggered by a show I saw on TV. I was watching a police
show where the basic show is that they show you the crime scene, discover
facts, catch the offenders and give you the resultant jail terms at the end.
I am sure you have seen such shows.

This show depicted a scam where a person was to be killed at the end of the
scam. The method of killing was to be to burn the person up. The get the
person into a state to be burned a large injection of insulin was used to
induce a coma. How large I don't know but it was supposed to be quite large
and the victim was a non-diabetic.

The conclusion of the show claimed that the victim fully recovered with the
exception that they now were a diabetic which was due to this large
injection of insulin. My question is simple..... how could this be? What
is the mechanism that does this? I know its TV but there is no real
additive value for claiming this if it weren't true. I just don't
understand this.

Thanks,
Sax

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Anon - 19 Dec 2006 00:15 GMT

> Sorry that I haven't lurked in a while so I am out of synch with the
> group. I have a question triggered by a show I saw on TV. I was watching
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Thanks,
> Sax

Fiction

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Ben Skversky - 19 Dec 2006 02:34 GMT

How old are you? Do your parents know that you are online?

> Sorry that I haven't lurked in a while so I am out of synch with the
> group. I have a question triggered by a show I saw on TV. I was watching
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Thanks,
> Sax

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oldal4865 - 19 Dec 2006 11:47 GMT

Saxology wrote in message
<5MFhh.947$pQ3.718@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>...

>Sorry that I haven't lurked in a while so I am out of synch with the group.
>I have a question triggered by a show I saw on TV. I was watching a police
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Thanks,
>Sax

Nonsense.

I sometimes think that much TV plot and dialogue is created by squads of
8th graders in order to keep budgets low.

Regards
Old Al

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Saxology - 19 Dec 2006 20:11 GMT

<snip>

> Nonsense.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Regards
> Old Al

Me too, but when I though about it... well, I was intrigued to say the
lesat. I mean, for a T2 like me, is it possible that high levels of insulin
prior to the uncontrolled sugar phase actually creates or progresses the
disease/failure mechanism? It was a wild thought but since no one really
knows the exact mechanism it was, for that moment at least, an idea. I just
didn't know if anyone had ever thought this or was told this.
-Sax

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oldal4865 - 19 Dec 2006 21:01 GMT

Saxology wrote in message ...

><snip>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>didn't know if anyone had ever thought this or was told this.
>-Sax

The strongest theory I know of is that T2 is the ultimate result of a
genetic flaw in susceptible folks such that their beta cells die faster than
they can be replaced. The death process is called "apoptosis". Forcing
the beta cells to make extra insulin (high Insulin Resistance, high carb
diet) exacerbates the problem, i.e. you can become T2 at age 15 or age 85
depending on your lifestyle. IOW, it's not having a lot of insulin
around, it's making too much insulin.

http://www.joplink.net/prev/200209/02.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/dispomim.cgi?id=147940

". . . .Polymerization of IAPP to form amyloid may further contribute to the
development of type II diabetes mellitus by destroying islet cells and by
disrupting the passage of glucose and hormones to and from them. . . ."

Regards
Old Al

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Ma¢k - 20 Dec 2006 01:51 GMT

[Default] On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 20:11:55 GMT, "Saxology"
<saxology2000@yahoo.com> Giggled into the madness of usenet:

><snip>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>didn't know if anyone had ever thought this or was told this.
>-Sax

high insulin production for type 2s is a problem and is a factor in
the progression of the disease.

that is totally separate from someone injecting insulin.

in fact injecting insulin often helps type 2s prolong the life span of
their own insulin producing beta cells. meaning it works in their
favor to slow the progression of the disease because injected insulin
lowers the body's need to over produce it's own insulin thus
preventing beta cell burnout/death.

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Chris Malcolm - 20 Dec 2006 10:28 GMT

Ma?k <stopthespam@shootspammers.com> wrote:

> [Default] On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 20:11:55 GMT, "Saxology"
> <saxology2000@yahoo.com> Giggled into the madness of usenet:

>><snip>
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> high insulin production for type 2s is a problem and is a factor in
> the progression of the disease.

> that is totally separate from someone injecting insulin.

> in fact injecting insulin often helps type 2s prolong the life span of
> their own insulin producing beta cells. meaning it works in their
> favor to slow the progression of the disease because injected insulin
> lowers the body's need to over produce it's own insulin thus
> preventing beta cell burnout/death.

Of course, but don't forget that the simultaneous presence in the
blood of high levels of glucose and insulin causes damage on its own,
so an insulin injecting T2 who chooses to eat more carbs and cover
them with higher doses of insuling will over time suffer more of that
damage. It's not as simple as something being either bad or good, some
things are both.

Signature

Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

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Ma¢k - 20 Dec 2006 01:47 GMT

[Default] On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:47:13 GMT, "Saxology"
<saxology2000@yahoo.com> Giggled into the madness of usenet:

>Sorry that I haven't lurked in a while so I am out of synch with the group.
>I have a question triggered by a show I saw on TV. I was watching a police
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Thanks,
>Sax

it's called creative license, TV shows don't have to present any facts
to be entertaining. It just helps if they add some facts and some
myths. Putting a non-diabetic into a coma using insulin would not
make them diabetic. It might result in brain damage though.

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Karl - 20 Dec 2006 17:14 GMT

> [Default] On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:47:13 GMT, "Saxology"
> <saxology2000@yahoo.com> Giggled into the madness of usenet:
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> myths. Putting a non-diabetic into a coma using insulin would not
> make them diabetic. It might result in brain damage though.

Perhaps the author of the show tried it, and damaged his or her own brain ;)

Signature

Karl
T2 - DX 4/1/2004 FBG 142 -> 93 A1c 5.4 -> 4.1 D&E

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Saxology - 21 Dec 2006 01:50 GMT

<snip>

> Perhaps the author of the show tried it, and damaged his or her own brain
> ;)

which came first, the sugar or the insulin? maybe having too much insulin
in our system creates the desire for carbs/sugar which causes more
insulin.... and on goes the cycle. I don't think anyone really knows the
full process and feedback mechanisms that would call any 1 theory wrong. I
am just approaching it with an open mind. When I saw the show it really
made me think.... thyroid dumps wrong amout of hormone and it causes you to
get fat or thin.... why not the same thing with insulin? maybe we always
produced too much by a small amount and it lead to increased food intake to
generate the sugar desired. If so, and this caused a later loss of
production of insulin then the sugar would be too high...

Hey, its just a though. Reversing thinking sometimes yields new ideas. The
show sparked me a bit.
-Sax

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