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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / October 2006

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When to ignore your doctor's advice

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Chris Malcolm - 27 Oct 2006 12:25 GMT
When you know better of course.

Well, that raises a lot of questions!

Let's first consider them in the context of a non-diabetic example. My
mother and all her children suffer from ulcerative colitis (UC). Some
time ago it was all of them except me. Then I developed the familiar
dreaded symptoms after a campylobacter infection. I called in a
doctor. I told him that I was the only one in my family without UC,
and described to him my typical UC symptoms.

"Probably not," was the diagnosis. "Probably just residual
campylobacter. Take these antibiotics to make sure it's really cleared
up and we'll see how it goes."

I rang my sister. "The lunatic!" she said, "The antibiotic will make
you worse! And the fool didn't even take a stool sample for testing to
confirm his speculative diagnosis! Complete moron! Think of an excuse
to call in another doctor tomorrow. Time is very critical!"

Well, to cut a long story short in three days I went through three
doctors from that practice, all of who told me I probably didn't have
UC, I should take the antibotics, and we should wait and see. The
third was the head of the practice, who brought along a student doctor
to see how she dealt with this now notoriously troublesome
patient. She did back down from the antibiotic after I asked her to
tell me what effect it would have on me on the remote off-chance that
I did happen to be suffering from UC.

"There's a nasty tummy bug going round", she said. "And it could also
be a resurgence of the campylobacter. Let's wait and see what the lab
comes up with from your stool sample. We'll hold off on the antibiotic
until we get the results and we'll see what happens while we wait."

After having been stonewalled by three doctors, including the senior
head of the practice, I was inclined to take their unanimous medical
advice. But my sister was still going ballistic about medical morons
on the end of the telephone. No, she's not a doctor, nor does she have
any medical or biological or even scientific educational
qualifications at all. She's just an intelligent patient who's
suffered the disorder for decades, and has taken the opportunity to
learn as much as she could about it. So should I listen to her, or to
the three medically qualified doctors?

I don't judge the opinion of an expert by his or her qualifications
except in an emergency when nothing else is available. I judge it by
how well they can provide me with a good explanation of their
diagnosis. If I don't have the educational background to understand it
all they should be able to explain what's missing and why a simplified
analogy won't work so I can do the appropriate homework. In other
words they have to convince me that they do know what they're talking
about.

None of the three doctors could do that. None of them could fit all of
my symptoms into a convincing explanatory diagnostic model. Whereas my
sister could. What's more, she had been right about the error
committed by the first doctor which the other two had admitted, and the
error commited by the first two which the third had admitted. I didn't
take her advice over theirs because she was my sister, I took it
because she could provide a more convincing explanation of my symptoms
in terms of a diagnostic model than they could.

So I called in a fourth doctor. He put his hand up to stop my standard
recitation of my problems after about twenty seconds. "Have you a
phone?" he asked. I pointed to it. He picked it up and booked me
straight into the hospital as an emergency case of suspected UC.

I was very lucky. He had booked me into a GI research clinic run by a
professor whose research speciality was UC.

"We're *so* lucky to have caught you this early," she told me, "Most
people who arrive here have been faffed around by their doctors for at
least months and sometimes years before they get to us. We've been
trying for ages to alert them to the critical importance of getting
people in here fast before they've suffered too much damage. They
shouldn't be waiting to be pushed into a diagnosis by irrefutable
exclusion. They should send people to us as soon as there's a
suspicion. That may possibly the most critical factor in a good
prognosis, starting treatment as early as possible. The risks of
wasting time while irrecoverable damage progresses are far too high
not to act on the first possible suspicion. But we can't just talk to
the local GPs, we have to to go to the top and fight our way through
the national bureaucracy. These things aren't medical problems any
more unfortunately, they've been turned into political problems."

In fact I managed to get treated so early that I joined a very select
club, so select that officially it doesn't exist -- those people who
have been cured of UC. The professor told me that she suspected that
with early enough diagnosis and modern treatment it might even be
possible to cure rather than just control UC. I had been caught so
early that she was very interested in how I was going to fare.

Very sadly she died of cancer before discovering just how well her
treatment worked on someone who had been caught as early as I had
been. The last time I saw her I thought to myself "Why are you talking
to me like a woman whose life is over? You're the same age as me!" But
I didn't know her well enough to ask if she was dying.

So in sum you should ignore your doctor's advice when you have good
reasons to suspect that you know better. Notice the "you"
there. Notice I did not suggest that you sould ignore your doctor's
advice because you know someone *else* you think knows better. That's
simply shifting the authority from your doctor to someone else. That's
playing the childish "who is the best authority?" game.

It's *your* disease. It's *your* life. The relationship between you
and your doctor is not a child-parent relationship. The doctor is an
expert whom you, a grown up autonomous adult, consult. You ask for
their advice. You ask them to justify their advice to you if they have
failed to do so. You compare their advice and justification with that
of other people you consult, such as other doctors, relatives,
friends, or strangers on the internet. Then *you* take the decision
about whose advice to follow, if any.

If I had taken the unanimous advice of the first three doctors I
consulted about my UC then I might have ended up by now with a
colostomy bag instead of an a.shole.  Fortunately for me my sister had
had plenty of experience of ignorant doctors mistreating UC
possibilities, and was able to guide me past them.

Is this relevant to diabetes? Of course. It's how I got diagnosed.

For years doctor after doctor had been telling me "Nothing to worry
about, you're not diabetic yet". Then one day I saw a really cheap BG
meter on offer in a supermarket and bought it out of curiosity. I
tested my BGs, looked up diabetes on the web, found this newsgroup,
and took complete graphs of my BG response to various typical meals
along to my doctor. He agreed. He also agreed that by the standard
recommended UK NHS testing procedures if he hadn't seen those graphs
he'd still be telling me "you haven't got diabetes yet". He apologised
for the UK NHS diabetes diagnosis rules, and said they were a bit out
of date.

Incidentally, I tested my sister, and suggested she might like to
suggest to her doctor that she might be diabetic. She was later very
pleased to be able to tell me that her doctor had told her there was
nothing to worry about, she wasn't diabetic yet. All I did was a
"whatever" shrug.  I didn't say another word. She's an intelligent
woman. "Let's see how long it takes her", I thought.

It was several weeks before I saw her again. "I've been looking into
this diabetes business," she said, "and I think my doctor might be a
bit of out date."

You go girl! That's my sister!

Signature

Chris Malcolm        cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk              DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

MaryL - 27 Oct 2006 14:08 GMT
> When you know better of course.
>
> Well, that raises a lot of questions!
>
> <snip excellent but long post>

I generally try to follow my doctor's advice -- that's why I consult him.
However, I did ignore one part of his and the diabetic nutritionist's
advice, both of whom based their advice on ADA standards.  That is, they
recommended *far* more carbs in my diet than I have been eating.  In this
case, I found information on the newsgroups that was more helpful.  With the
aid of my meter, I was able to see that there clearly was a relationship
between my BG and certain types of carbs.  My doctor has actually been
impressed with the results -- weight loss, BG under control (had been
averaging 96 for a considerable period of time, 92 average for the last
month), and he withdrew my medication in March 2005.

MaryL
W. Baker - 27 Oct 2006 17:15 GMT
: > When you know better of course.
: >
: > Well, that raises a lot of questions!
: >
: > <snip excellent but long post>

I agree, chris. I didn't know enough 8 yers ago when my regular
opthamologist told me i had diabetic macular edema and required some light
lasaring.  My numbers wee in good control at teh time, so I wondered how
this had happened, but went along.  I had the light lasaring and within a
few days had my first eye bleed in that eye (can't spell the correct
word:-), the first of three that took m left eye focus.  I di dstart
seeing a retinologist atafter tht time adn when I got severe macular
edema, with continuing excellent bgs over years, she said she wanted me to
see a macula specialist, as it , most likely, was wet macular edema.  
that is how I ended up with my super ~-specialist who has saved my focus
in the right eye and improved my vision quite a bit.

I don't know if there wewre treatments availalbe 8 years ago, as the
research in the filed is coming thick and fast, but the lasaring was the
wrong thing to do in the way it was done, because the opthamologist just
assumed that a diabetic would be having diabetic macular edema.

this cautionary tale, which  have told on this group before, should be
taken to heart.  Don't let the Doctor assume that all your ills are due to
the diabetes.  

Wendy
italiangm - 27 Oct 2006 15:01 GMT
Thanks for sharing your story.

Docs all too often proceed to presumptive diagnosis and treatment when
family history should be raising their index of suspicion toward a
definitive differential diagnosis to rule out the familial trend.

Presumptive diagnosis and treatment can be a reasonable choice when
doing so isn't likely to do more harm. But in your case, the docs just
weren't paying attention. Major alarm bells should have been going off
in their pointy little heads. *sigh*
Susan - 27 Oct 2006 15:13 GMT
> When you know better of course.
>
[quoted text clipped - 141 lines]
>
> You go girl! That's my sister!

My BIL is an oncologist.  Something he's often said about missed
diagnoses is "once a diagnosis is made (even the wrong one), all
thinking stops."

Susan
sonatabv@sbcglobal.net - 27 Oct 2006 15:58 GMT
I'm living with the result of a misdiagnosis.  After five visits with
my doctor, he admitted his mistake but I'm still left with the
consequences.

Just my .0002,

Vickie B.
Chris Malcolm - 27 Oct 2006 18:36 GMT
>> When you know better of course.
>>
>> Well, that raises a lot of questions!

[snip]

>> Well, to cut a long story short in three days I went through three
>> doctors from that practice, all of who told me I probably didn't have
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> tell me what effect it would have on me on the remote off-chance that
>> I did happen to be suffering from UC.

[snip]

>> So I called in a fourth doctor. He put his hand up to stop my standard
>> recitation of my problems after about twenty seconds. "Have you a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> people who arrive here have been faffed around by their doctors for at
>> least months and sometimes years before they get to us."

[snip]

> My BIL is an oncologist.  Something he's often said about missed
> diagnoses is "once a diagnosis is made (even the wrong one), all
> thinking stops."

It's a characteristic feature of human thinking. Thinking is
difficult, so we only do it when we're puzzled. When we've thought of
an explanation we stop being puzzled and stop thinking.

There are dozens of TV detective series based on the stories of an
amazing detective who doesn't stop thinking when a likely suspect is
found, and the fights he or she has with all the police who do stop
thinking as soon as they find a likely suspect.

Signature

Chris Malcolm        cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk              DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

MaryL - 27 Oct 2006 20:41 GMT
> My BIL is an oncologist.  Something he's often said about missed diagnoses
> is "once a diagnosis is made (even the wrong one), all thinking stops."
>
> Susan

I firmly believe that my mother saved my father's life and that his GP
almost cost him his life.  This was *years* ago, but his doctor kept
insisting that there was nothing wrong with his heart and his symptoms were
"just arthritis poor circulation."  This was for a man who was only 53 years
old at the time and was so out-of-breath that he could hardly walk to the
mailbox.  The doctor gave him EKGs but not stress tests or any other type of
test.  My mother was very concerned and finally insisted on a referall to a
top cardiologist.  Dad was sent to Cleveland, and there he was told that he
was "a walking time bomb."  He was immediately scheduled for a triple bypass
(at a time when that procedure was still in its infancy).  His quality of
life was *greatly* improved after that, he was able to undertake a daily
routine of 3-mile walks, and he lived for another 25 years.

MaryL
Susan - 27 Oct 2006 21:47 GMT
> I firmly believe that my mother saved my father's life and that his GP
> almost cost him his life.  This was *years* ago, but his doctor kept
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> life was *greatly* improved after that, he was able to undertake a daily
> routine of 3-mile walks, and he lived for another 25 years.

Same story with my friend's mother, who was always very fit and active
in her 70s, though type 2 DM.  She was weak, short of breath, kept
complaining to her doctor of those things plus abdominal pain.  Her PCP,
a cardiologist, did EKG and blew it all off.  My friend did some
research, found those signs to be typical of women with heart disease.

Took her to the local, very highly touted heart center, where she had
angiography and emergency quintuple bypass surgery the next day; she was
over 90% blocked, arterially.

Her doc ignored her previous level of functioning, her DM predisposition
to CVD and nearly let her die unnecessarily.

BTW, the diagnostic cardiologist at the most prestigious heart center in
my area told her that an HbA1c of 7% and post prandials of 200 were just
fine for her age!  Fortunately, her endocrinologist has told her it's
way too high, and to stop eating fruit and starch.

Susan
BlueBrooke - 27 Oct 2006 16:44 GMT
>When you know better of course.
>
>Well, that raises a lot of questions!

[snip]

Thanks for posting this, Chris -- it makes some very valid points.  

BlueBrooke
T2/D&E/June 2005

The things that come to those who wait will
be the things left by those who got there first.
Julie Bove - 27 Oct 2006 17:00 GMT
> When you know better of course.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> campylobacter. Take these antibiotics to make sure it's really cleared
> up and we'll see how it goes."

<snip>

And interestingly enough, this is exactly how I was diagnosed with diabetes.
But I didn't buy the campylobacter thing.  The Dr. at the ER insisted that I
probably had it even though testing didn't show it because there was an
outbreak in the area from tainted chicken.  No matter that I was just
passing through the area.  No matter that I hadn't eaten any chicken there
or anywhere else.

Even my Endo. who confirmed my diagnosis of diabetes given to me by the ER
Dr. thought I had it.  Thought that was the cause of the chronic diarrhea I
had.

Then I began to read stories here of people who had the same problem upon
diagnosis.  I assumed that my problem must have been caused by high BG, even
though I got my diabetes under control very quickly and brought my Arc down
from 10.0 to 8.0 in two weeks and then to 4.something by 3 months.

Now I know of my allergy to egg and dairy.  At home, I hadn't been eating
eggs very often at all.  But now we were on vacation.  Dining out all the
time.  My mom cooking breakfast.  Eggs every morning.  Meatloaf, corn bread
and other foods containing egg.

Back at home I suffered from so many other medical problems, the stomach
issue kept getting pushed aside.  The goal was to get me up and walking.

Then we moved to NY.  I had a kid out of control.  A kid who was supposed to
go to pre-I but who would dash back through the door to use the toilet.
Then when I'd finally get her off the toilet, I'd have to run back there.  I
thought it was nerves.  She didn't want to go to pre-I.  didn't want to make
that horrible drive.  The bad roads, bad weather, bad traffic and lack of
parking.  It seemed we were always running late because it took so long for
us both to get off the toilet and out the door.  Then it was a race for me
to get back home again because I'd need to use the toilet again!  Never once
did I stop to think that the two of us might be allergic to our breakfast
foods and that's why we needed the toilet so soon after eating.

At least we finally got that sorted out.  Now on to my next stomach issue.
Is it delayed stomach emptying?  Gallbladder?  Both?  Something else?
Hopefully I'll find out next month.

Signature

See my web:
http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm

rainbow - 28 Oct 2006 17:05 GMT
Yeah, i and my sister know that toilet story pretty well. Ben there,
done that! Well, I was just diagnosed as delayed stomch emptying &
gallbladder. Put me on a low fiber diet, when high fiber had been my
credo ... Well, I began to ave the worst hard dry stool ... eating stool
softeners like candy, till I just got tired of that because it wasn't
working that well. So  started eaing some high fiber again. Apples with
the peel and other stuff. I feel like shoutin' halleluhia, I been
healed!!! Not only is the bowel movement easy, my BG is still under
control and uneffected ...!!!!!  But I also know that other side ...
running for the potty ... for some odd reason I am "improved" ... I am
not trottin' for every potty, but I am not having a simple BM either,
it;s just "better" and a level I can certainly live with. My sister is,
BTW, allergic to all milk products, except yogurt.
I once said, I knew where every potty room in Vegas was and how long it
would take me to get there from where I was! And on days when I had alot
of birthday parties or shows was not allowed to eat eggs or milk
products myself. Lest i get the trots in the middle of a routine and
have to "go"!                                             Rainbow
Loretta Eisenberg - 27 Oct 2006 22:48 GMT
Chris that is some story.  I am very happy to hear that it has a good
ending.

To me, the fact that the three doctors you went to were in the same
practice would not be getting a second opinion.  

Your sister is a smart cookie .  I am glad you found the right doctor
for your condition.

Loretta

--
In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.
MI - 28 Oct 2006 00:44 GMT
On 10/27/06 4:25 AM, in article 4qe8lgFmednbU1@individual.net, "Chris
Malcolm" <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

> When you know better of course.
>
> Well, that raises a lot of questions!

<snip>

Great information for when to double check your doctor. I will add my story
if only to help people realize that our doctors are not infallible and there
are times we should not just automatically follow directions.

All my life I have been borderline hypothyroid and was treated off and on
depending on the lab results. Then I got pregnant and really bottomed out.
All I wanted to do was sleep! I was put on medication and told I would have
to remain on it the rest of life. After my son was born the readings started
to rise until I was hyperthyroid. I was given all the tests including the
radioactive iodine uptake. After the tests the radiologist wanted to make an
appointment to destroy part of my thyroid before I even saw my endo again.
He, too, wanted to destroy my thyroid even though I insisted I was not hyper
and the high readings were from too much medication.

As luck would have it I had to make a trip home at this time and my husband
insisted I see my old doctor. He hit the roof and said he didn't care if my
endo was a clinical professor at both Stanford University and Lawrence
Livermore Laboratory, I was not to let them destroy my thyroid but that I
should go on medication to lower the readings. After a fight with the endo,
he agreed to the medication and in three months I was back to normal. A year
later I was back home and my thyroid was still normal. I, now many years
later, am a hypothyroid permanently, but think of all the years I would have
suffered if I had let those two specialists do what they wanted.

Strike one up for my old GP!

Martha, T2 Canada
Metformin, Avandia, Synthroid, Advair Singulair
Kurt - 28 Oct 2006 01:31 GMT
> When you know better of course.

This thread title is a wet dream to some people in this newsgroup.  I
think a better title for the thread would be "When should you look for
a new doctor."

I would never "ignore" a doctors advice, but I might disagree with it.
If that were the case I would seek out another doctor and get a second
opinion.  Part of a doctor's responsibility is to explain to a patient,
in layman's terms, why he or she is prescribing a medication or advice
for the patient to follow.  Most doctors are aware that there are going
to be patients who ignore their advice, or not take their medicine.
These are usually the ones who are non compliant versus the few who
disagree with what the doctor is saying.

The problem in this newsgroup, IMO, is that a few people encourage
others to ignore their doctors advice.  Just because they had a bad
experience with a doctor, or a certain diet doesn't work for them, they
feel that will be true for everyone.  Not the case.

Kurt
MaryL - 28 Oct 2006 02:01 GMT
>> When you know better of course.
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Kurt

Kurt, I don't think anyone is saying that experiences like this will be true
of everyone.  In fact, I said in my message that "I generally try to follow
my doctor's advice -- that's why I consult him."  But, we are saying (at
least, that is my inference) that we should not blindly follow.  We also
need to take precautions, ask questions, and consider alternatives.  That
said, I am one of those who almost always follows a doctor's advice.  My own
doctor is open to questions and communication.  If he were not, I would
follow one part of *your* advice and seek a new a second opinion (or even a
new doctor).

MaryL
Will, T2 - 28 Oct 2006 03:47 GMT
>Kurt, I don't think anyone is saying that experiences like this will be true
>of everyone.  In fact, I said in my message that "I generally try to follow
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>MaryL

Lemmings blindly follow... also gullible human diabetics, led on by
the ADA and the American Carb and Grain Council....

Will, T2
Kurt - 28 Oct 2006 05:31 GMT
> >> When you know better of course.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> of everyone.  In fact, I said in my message that "I generally try to follow
> my doctor's advice -- that's why I consult him."

I wasn't referring to you, Mary.

>But, we are saying (at
> least, that is my inference) that we should not blindly follow.

Using the word "we" does you a disservice.  There are only a few who I
take issue with in regards to bullying newbies into ignoring their
doctors and placing their primary care in the hands of a.s.d. and
you're not one of them.

>We also
> need to take precautions, ask questions, and consider alternatives.  That
> said, I am one of those who almost always follows a doctor's advice.  My own
> doctor is open to questions and communication.  If he were not, I would
> follow one part of *your* advice and seek a new a second opinion (or even a
> new doctor).

That sounds reasonable to me.  

Best,
Kurt
jackiepatti@gmail.com - 28 Oct 2006 08:11 GMT
> Kurt, I don't think anyone is saying that experiences like this will be true
> of everyone.  In fact, I said in my message that "I generally try to follow
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> follow one part of *your* advice and seek a new a second opinion (or even a
> new doctor).

I agree with this.

Any problem I have or any medication I'm prescribed, I'm going to look
into in some detail myself.  I did the same for my daughter when she
was small also.  Then there's discussion with the doctor, and
addressing questions or concerns I have.  Doctors that are not open to
questions and communication get fired.  I don't do "submission to
authority" well.

Some doctors are really good at staying current with research in their
specialties and have a lot of good info and are quite worth talking to.
And other doctors are primarily educated by pharmaceutical company
sales reps.  If I can't determine via discussion which type of doctor
it is, I'm not terribly likely to put much credence in his or her
advice.

On the other hand, if I have found the doctor to be relatively clueful,
I'm much more likely to back off on the questions and take their
advice, particularly on short-term things where the decision has to be
made rapidly.  There are people I've come to respect who's advice is
worthwhile to me.  Having an MD after one's name does not automatically
earn that trust though.

Clueful doesn't *always* mean knowing more than I do.  It does mean
knowing one's limitations though.  A GP I had when uninsured a few
years back provided some of the best diabetic care I ever had and he
did not know much about diabetes at all when we began.  A willingness
to learn is more impressive to me than someone who acts like they're an
expert but won't have a discussion that allows me to guage their
knowledge myself.

A doctor I *really* miss was my doctor before I moved here... wish I
could still see her.  She was a GP also.  I was seeing an endo then so
she had little to do with my diabetes care, but generally provided very
good care to myself and my daughter for a number of years.  She never
"faked it," if she didn't know something, she found out or referred me
elsewhere.  I trusted her a *lot* more than I've ever trusted a doctor
before or since.

And generally, I can figure out who to listen to on a newsgroup or not
in a similar manner.  I do *not* keep up with diabetes research myself,
it's been 15 years since I did a whole bunch of research so I'm wildly
out-of-date.  I can generally tell who is clueful or not though.

Further, research isn't always done into the questions I find myself
wanting answers for.  A newsgroup provides a bunch of data points in
those cases, if people are willing to answer.  It's not as good as a
double-blind study no, but it beats only having the one data point of
myself.

I feel I am primarily responsible for my own health.  Doctors,
research, newsgroups and such can provide useful information, but the
final responsibility is mine.

And that is how it should be as the repercussions are mine also.
coonskin@amestwp.com - 28 Oct 2006 03:13 GMT
"The problem in this newsgroup, IMO, is that a few people encourage
others to ignore their doctors advice.  Just because they had a bad
experience with a doctor, or a certain diet doesn't work for them, they
feel that will be true for everyone.  Not the case."

The problem is that you resent for some reason that people here are
educated to the point to know when to ignore a doctor and seek other
advice with another.  The problem is that it is but one more example of
the terrible state of diabetes care provided, as the terrible outcomes
show.

When people know as much or more then their docter and refuse direction
it is to their credit to have educated themselves to have empowered
themselves to be able to do so.  If same happens in this newsgroup then
more power to them.

One of the most important lessons to be learned is the skill and
knowledge among doctors varies greatly and indeed some are downright
dangerous.  Another is that with some effort one can be in a position to
know when to fire a doctor and how to advise others to do same.  If you
are uncomfortable with people empowering themselves to do so then
perhaps you would be best advised to go elsewhere.
Kurt - 28 Oct 2006 05:41 GMT
> "The problem in this newsgroup, IMO, is that a few people encourage
> others to ignore their doctors advice.  Just because they had a bad
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> the terrible state of diabetes care provided, as the terrible outcomes
> show.

And what do you base your claim of "terrible state of diabetes care"
on?  What you read in here?  Your own situation?

> When people know as much or more then their docter

Do you think you know as much or more than your doctor?  About
diabetes?  About the human body?  If you think you do then I would
suggest you find a new doctor.

>and refuse direction
> it is to their credit to have educated themselves to have empowered
> themselves to be able to do so.  If same happens in this newsgroup then
> more power to them.

I think every diabetic should empower themselves with as much
information as possible about diabetes.  We have it 24/7 and the more
we know the better.  But I also think that it is dangerous to base
one's diabetic care on reading posts in a newsgroup from strangers who
they know nothing about and whose claims cannot be substantiated.

> One of the most important lessons to be learned is the skill and
> knowledge among doctors varies greatly and indeed some are downright
> dangerous.

How many have you seen in order to make this claim?  How many is
"some"?

>Another is that with some effort one can be in a position to
> know when to fire a doctor and how to advise others to do same.

How can someone in here be in any kind of position to tell another
person who logs in here to fire their doctor.  Really, you are being
silly.

>If you
> are uncomfortable with people empowering themselves to do so then
> perhaps you would be best advised to go elsewhere.

LOL.  Yeah, right.

Kurt
Chris Malcolm - 28 Oct 2006 14:37 GMT
>> "The problem in this newsgroup, IMO, is that a few people encourage
>> others to ignore their doctors advice.  Just because they had a bad
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> the terrible state of diabetes care provided, as the terrible outcomes
>> show.

> And what do you base your claim of "terrible state of diabetes care"
> on?  What you read in here?  Your own situation?

The national statistics for diabetes provided by ADA paint the picture
well enough.

>> When people know as much or more then their docter

> Do you think you know as much or more than your doctor?  About
> diabetes?  About the human body?  If you think you do then I would
> suggest you find a new doctor.

Knowledge does not come in simple one dimensional quantities like
water. It is structured and differentiated. It is possible for me to
know more than my doctor about diabetes at the same time as my doctor
knows more than me about diabetes. You seem to be assuming that if I
know more than my doctor then my doctor must necessarily know less
then me. That's a misleading oversimplification.

>>and refuse direction it is to their credit to have educated
>> themselves to have empowered themselves to be able to do so.  If
>> same happens in this newsgroup then more power to them.

> I think every diabetic should empower themselves with as much
> information as possible about diabetes.  We have it 24/7 and the more
> we know the better.  But I also think that it is dangerous to base
> one's diabetic care on reading posts in a newsgroup from strangers who
> they know nothing about and whose claims cannot be substantiated.

Very good advice. You should only take seriously the claims of
newsgroup strangers which can be substantiated.

>> One of the most important lessons to be learned is the skill and
>> knowledge among doctors varies greatly and indeed some are downright
>> dangerous.

> How many have you seen in order to make this claim?  How many is
> "some"?

It has been a common and important enough problem among posters here
to be a matter of serious concern. But we don't have to rely on
anecdote here. Doctors themselves have done research into this
topic. With specific reference to our particular problem of diabetes,
the statistics they provide are not encouraging.

>>Another is that with some effort one can be in a position to
>> know when to fire a doctor and how to advise others to do same.

> How can someone in here be in any kind of position to tell another
> person who logs in here to fire their doctor.  Really, you are being
> silly.

IIRC your argument is that a poster here can't know the whole
story. That's perfectly true. Hence the useful assumption made in most
forms of human interactive communication, that the person telling you
a story has told you everything of importance. Your advice to them is
implicitly qualified by the assumption that they have told the truth
and that your advice is based on the assumption that they haven't
failed to tell you anything of importance. People discuss their
medical problems with each other all the time. Saying something like
"Well, if what you've told me is true, and if I were you, I'd get a
new doctor ASAP!" is not uncommon and in well understood.

Given that common assumption, being in a position to tell someone
posting here to fire their doctor isn't a problem. You have already
suggested earlier in this post what would in your opinion be adequate
grounds for firing your doctor. I find it difficult to understand your
position. You seem to be insisting on standing on a point of principle
which is so extreme that you don't even adhere to it yourself.

Signature

Chris Malcolm        cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk              DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Alan S - 28 Oct 2006 15:49 GMT
>> The problem is that you resent for some reason that people here are
>> educated to the point to know when to ignore a doctor and seek other
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>And what do you base your claim of "terrible state of diabetes care"
>on?  What you read in here?  Your own situation?

Let's just look at a statement by a major diabetes
authority:

http://www.diabetes.org/about-diabetes.jsp
"There are 20.8 million children and adults in the United
States, or 7% of the population, who have diabetes. While an
estimated 14.6 million have been diagnosed with diabetes,
unfortunately, 6.2 million people (or nearly one-third) are
unaware that they have the disease."

Why are nearly one third undiagnosed? Maybe some don't visit
their doctors - but of those who do - who is missing the
symptoms? The patients?

I would call that a "terrible state of diabetes care".

I recently came across this interesting but rather startling
document:
http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q=http://www.stfm.org/AnnualConf/an02/rf4.doc
Data Mining a Diabetic Data Warehouse: Younger Age is Key
Predictor for Bad HgbA1c Values

If you read it in full, the authors were surprised to find
that, as the title says "Younger Age is Key Predictor for
Bad HgbA1c Values". In this case, young is <55.

However, my reason for being startled was different. In the
details are some rather disturbing statistics:

"The population of diabetic patients is important in
healthcare for a number of reasons. It is large with 15.7
million people in 1998 or 5.9% of the population of the US
having diabetes, 8.2% of those 20 and older, and 18.4% of
those 65 or older."
<snip>
"Death certificates indicate that diabetes contributes to
193,000 deaths annually, but this is vastly under-reported.
Diabetes is the leading cause of new cases of blindness in
adults aged 20-74 (as many as 24,000 become blind annually
from diabetes), of end-stage kidney disease (33,000
diabetics start dialysis annually), and of leg amputations
not related to injury (86,000 annually). Diabetic patients
are 2-4 times more likely to have a heart attack or stroke
than a non-diabetic patient."
<snip>
"The diabetic data warehouse as of August 2001 had data from
1/1/1998 to 6/30/01 on 30,383 diabetic patients."
<snip>
"In this study we choose to use the average HgbA1c of all
the results for a given patient, and exclude those we do not
have at least 2 HgbA1c results for. We also repartition this
average HgbA1c into a 4-level and 2-level categorical
variable based on meaningful clinical cut points.
    Our final flat file for export to the data mining
software had 15,902 patients (rows) and 19 variables per
patient (columns). All of these patients had at least 2
HgbA1c tests and at least 2 office visits, the criteria we
used for meaningful continuity"
<snip>
They then define bad A1c: "when the target variable is
HgbA1c > 9.5"

In the results, in a sample covering several thousand
subjects, 29.6% of them had a bad HgbA1c.

That's what I found startling.  

I would call that a "terrible state of diabetes care".

What standard of care would you say those patients had been
receiving? What dietary advice would you surmise they had
been following? What lifestyle advice? What support programs
were they using to assist them in following that advice?

Of course, these numbers may not be safely extended to the
general diabetic population without more research - but
would you like to place bets on the percentage of diagnosed
and experienced diabetics over, say, the AACE recommendation
of 6.5%? I'd bet the vast majority, based on UKPDS numbers.

So, don't you think that maybe, just maybe, it may be time
for some of the medical establishment to try investigating
some fresh hypotheses and questioning current practices?

With a view to improving the presently terrible state of
diabetes care.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Liguria to Pisa
coonskin@amestwp.com - 28 Oct 2006 16:26 GMT
>And what do you base your claim of "terrible state of diabetes care"
>on?  What you read in here?  Your own situation?

No, the easily and widely reported national outcomes, on the whole a
disaster.  To cite one number, 2/3 diabetics with an a1c over 7, the
latter being a failure threshold no longer supported even by the ADA.

>Do you think you know as much or more than your doctor?  About
>diabetes?  About the human body?  If you think you do then I would
>suggest you find a new doctor.

By the statements of the last 4 doctors i have consulted, they say I do.
In evry case I have educated each in some area of diabetes of which they
were previously unaware and grateful to learn.  I devote much time in
keeping up on all the literature in the journals, they do not have the
time considering they must know about all aspects o f medicine at a more
general level.

>I think every diabetic should empower themselves with as much
>information as possible about diabetes.  We have it 24/7 and the more
>we know the better.  But I also think that it is dangerous to base
>one's diabetic care on reading posts in a newsgroup from strangers who
>they know nothing about and whose claims cannot be substantiated.

Newsgroups are but onlyone source of information but one which taps into
a vast number of lifeyears of experience and which includes people
motivated to empower themselves to learn what is best for themselves.
Many participants provide the specific source of information on which
posts are based and the broad experience of others then applied to
evaluate it.  Without this information a single person having only the
experience of one doctor has no basis for making decisions about the
quality of his advice.

Regarding dangerous doctors:

>How many have you seen in order to make this claim?  How many is
>"some"?

Among 5 doctors consulted one and in many respects one other.  The first
person provided the wrong information about how a prescribed drug acts,
with a very high trig level simply advised to eate fewer sweets, did not
prescribe a meter and testing supplies until on this list I learned
about their value and asked for them, did not advise me for several
years before diagnosis that my blood numbers for various tests indicated
advanced metabolic syndrome, of which I learned in the newsgroup later,
advising simply that I might want to lose some weight.  She was a very
attentive and caring doctor who would give me all the time required and
whose examinations were of the 5 doctors the most extensive.  She is
dangerous for a diabetic.  She was shocked to find that in short order I
got my a1c lower then 5 with diet and exercise alone by the information
I learned in great part in this newsgroup and which would never have
happened following her advice alone.

>How can someone in here be in any kind of position to tell another
>person who logs in here to fire their doctor.  Really, you are being
>silly.

Read all of the above again, I fired that doctor.  I have maintained an
a1c of 5 or below for the past 5 years and was able to do so by the
information of the sum of all the years of all the experiences in the
group and the motivation it gave to continue to educate myself in the
medical literature.
rainbow - 28 Oct 2006 17:12 GMT
Experience is a great teacher! Reading what has happened to others, an
even greater one!, IMO. Some of the concerns and questions, I have asked
many docs, would never have been learned had I not read them on some
forum! Being forwarned is forarmed!                              Had I
known what I know now, I would not be half blind!!!!!!!!!
Rainbow
jackiepatti@gmail.com - 28 Oct 2006 18:42 GMT
> >And what do you base your claim of "terrible state of diabetes care"
> >on?  What you read in here?  Your own situation?
>
> No, the easily and widely reported national outcomes, on the whole a
> disaster.  To cite one number, 2/3 diabetics with an a1c over 7, the
> latter being a failure threshold no longer supported even by the ADA.

I assume there's some number of competent doctors who provide good
care, but have noncompliant patients.  All the good treatment and
education in the world isn't going to help if the patient isn't willing
to do what it takes.

It's easy to forget that here, where we have self-selected, and
therefore wind up with an extremely highly motivated group of
diabetics.  Even if every single diabetic received some theoretical
standard of "best care possible," that wouldn't necessarily result in
numbers as low as reported by people here.

Most of the treament of diabetes is under the diabetic's control, not
the doctor's.  It's not like surgery, where the doctor is largely in
control of the outcome.

That isn't to say some of the problem may not belong to the medical
establishment, but I don't see how we can just flatout blame them for
poor diabetic control unless we give them the power to enforce their
decisions on their patients.

> By the statements of the last 4 doctors i have consulted, they say I do.
> In evry case I have educated each in some area of diabetes of which they
> were previously unaware and grateful to learn.  I devote much time in
> keeping up on all the literature in the journals, they do not have the
> time considering they must know about all aspects o f medicine at a more
> general level.

Yes, I run across that all the time with GPs.  They can't all be expert
on everything and yet they provide an awful lot of diabetic care.  IMO,
willingness to learn is much more important than diabetic knowledge.

Endos are a different matter, I *do* expect an endo to know more than
me.  My data is 15 years out-of-date, if they don't know more than me,
they are simply not paying attention to their own specialty.

> Newsgroups are but onlyone source of information but one which taps into
> a vast number of lifeyears of experience and which includes people
> motivated to empower themselves to learn what is best for themselves.

Agreed.

> Many participants provide the specific source of information on which
> posts are based and the broad experience of others then applied to
> evaluate it.  Without this information a single person having only the
> experience of one doctor has no basis for making decisions about the
> quality of his advice.

Yes.  Laymen have to have some yardstick with which to measure a
doctor's competence.

> Regarding dangerous doctors:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> I learned in great part in this newsgroup and which would never have
> happened following her advice alone.

If she learned from that, I'd call her a good doctor even if she was
dangerous to you.

If she took that information and used it with other patients, she is a
good doctor.

If she did some research into diabetes and modified her treatment based
not only on your experience, but on research, I'd call her an excellent
doctor.

No one can know everything - and I don't expect that from a doctor.

I do expect them to be willing to change their treatment protocols when
data proves theirs is not working though.
Susan - 28 Oct 2006 19:10 GMT
>>>And what do you base your claim of "terrible state of diabetes care"
>>>on?  What you read in here?  Your own situation?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> education in the world isn't going to help if the patient isn't willing
> to do what it takes.

I assume that this is true, too, but I doubt it's true for the majority
for one reason.

Folks tend to comply with treatment that helps and makes them feel
better more readily than with treatment that doesn't.

Studies have found that the ADA recommended diet is the type that causes
overeating, and that the HbA1c targets advocated by the ADA are
associated with greatly increased risk of complications, even the 6% level.

Folks are more likely to be compliant with a diet that doesn't leave
them hungry and frustrated with it's failure to control the progression
of their disease.

Susan
Gantlet - 28 Oct 2006 19:33 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> overeating, and that the HbA1c targets advocated by the ADA are associated
> with greatly increased risk of complications, even the 6% level.

the ADA diet is basically a low fat diet.  is the low fat diet combined with
exercise
unhealthy? i wont even answer that.. all anyone has to do is look out into
the real world.
does it take will power? yes.  most things in life with great rewards
usually do.
personally i couldnt stick to a low carb die and i also think its the
healthiest choice of the 2 diets.
but that is not to say that some would do better on it then they would on
low fat.
there are more than a few that post here that eat low carb and are obese.
to me eating carbs means i have to put a limit to keep my blood sugars good.
high fat foods allow me to eat way to many calories and kind of takes away
the motivation diabetes has given me.
right now the healthiest thing i can do for my body is to get up and away
from the computer.

UP UP and AWAY!!!!!

Tom
Chris Malcolm - 29 Oct 2006 06:56 GMT
>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>> overeating, and that the HbA1c targets advocated by the ADA are associated
>> with greatly increased risk of complications, even the 6% level.

> the ADA diet is basically a low fat diet.  is the low fat diet combined with
> exercise
> unhealthy?

This is a diabetic support group, and we're talking about diets for
diabetics, not normal people. You also assume that what diet
"basically" is, is what is important about it. That's only true very
generally speaking, which is not what we're doing here.

Signature

Chris Malcolm        cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk              DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

jackiepatti@gmail.com - 29 Oct 2006 11:55 GMT
> the ADA diet is basically a low fat diet.  is the low fat diet combined with
> exercise
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> right now the healthiest thing i can do for my body is to get up and away
> from the computer.

If you control your bg on low-fat, that's quite cool.  My SIL lost 100
lbs doing a low-fat calorie-restricted thing with lotsa exercise.
She's looking hot!

I have little problem eating with my SIL as she is big on veggies,
salads, stirfries and other real foods.   Probably 90% of our diet is
similar, except I don't do bread and pasta at all and she doesn't do
red meats much.  And she eats that low-fat dairy stuff which I can't
stand, so  I have to take some real dairy along when I visit, or buy
some low-fat stuff when she visits.

I have more in common with her foodwise than with most people even
though we are supposedly on opposite types of diets.  Basically, we
both get the majority of the *volume* of our food from veggies, so it's
easier to eat with her than with many who are on "low carb," supposedly
the same diet I'm on.

I posted my thoughts about healthy diet for "normal" people recently,
which is basically an emphasis on whole foods and as much variety as
possible.  The only difference I see for diabetics is limiting their
carb intake to the degree necessary to maintain bg.  If a low-fat diet
works for that for you, I think that's kewl.

But I know low-fat doesn't work for me.  I tried a low-fat diet around
12 years ago, sticking strictly to it for a year without cheating, and
gained 5 lbs by the end of that year.  I was also hungry and weak the
entire time.  My bg was out-of-control and I was sickly. The only time
I feel well enough to exercise at all is on a low-carb diet.  And it
also happens that it's the only time my bg stays below 140.  So that
has to be for me.
Kurt - 28 Oct 2006 20:46 GMT
> > >And what do you base your claim of "terrible state of diabetes care"
> > >on?  What you read in here?  Your own situation?
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> poor diabetic control unless we give them the power to enforce their
> decisions on their patients.

Bingo!

Best,
Kurt
Cheri - 29 Oct 2006 20:31 GMT
First the patients have to have good information. Personally, I don't
feel that a doctor who has her nurse call and say you have diabetes,
doctor says to lay off concentrated sweets, is giving good information.
So, if I would have gone on my merry way, not eating concentrated sweets
(as the doctor said) the problem would have been solved? NOT. However,
they wouldn't think twice about listing me as "non compliant" when my
A1c was through the roof, and it would have been. Sad really.

--
Cheri

Kurt wrote in message
<1162064806.462609.130040@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>...

>> That isn't to say some of the problem may not belong to the medical
>> establishment, but I don't see how we can just flatout blame them for
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Best,
>Kurt
jackiepatti@gmail.com - 30 Oct 2006 03:02 GMT
> First the patients have to have good information. Personally, I don't
> feel that a doctor who has her nurse call and say you have diabetes,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> they wouldn't think twice about listing me as "non compliant" when my
> A1c was through the roof, and it would have been. Sad really.

I don't doubt that *some* of the problem is with the medical
establishment, but I don't really see how we can determine how much of
it is them vs. patient compliance issues.

My father didn't quit smoking when he was on oxygen for emphysema.
Which was not all that terribly surprising as he ate plain old white
sugar as a diabetic for years.  I don't see how anyone can blame his
doctor for *anything,* it's not surprising at all that he died at age
58, rather it's surprising he managed to live that long.

So for me, seeing the "results" of bg testing for average patients
makes me wonder how much is the doctors vs. how much is the patients.

I can manage my bg without being under a doctor's care at all... and
have done so at times when I don't have medical insurance, like now.

I've also had times when I *didn't* manage it, and there really wasn't
anything a doctor could've done about that.  Unless a doctor's gonna
lock me up, he or she can't control my diet.
Cheri - 30 Oct 2006 03:18 GMT
I'm with you there...on both counts. :-) I still have a bad day here and
there, but they are few and far between. At least I know what I need to
do, even when I don't always do it. That's what I mean about needing to
have the information to succeed.

--
Cheri

jackiepatti@gmail.com wrote in message

>I can manage my bg without being under a doctor's care at all... and
>have done so at times when I don't have medical insurance, like now.
>
>I've also had times when I *didn't* manage it, and there really wasn't
>anything a doctor could've done about that.  Unless a doctor's gonna
>lock me up, he or she can't control my diet.
Kurt - 30 Oct 2006 03:55 GMT
> > First the patients have to have good information. Personally, I don't
> > feel that a doctor who has her nurse call and say you have diabetes,
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> anything a doctor could've done about that.  Unless a doctor's gonna
> lock me up, he or she can't control my diet.

There is lots of information on diabetes available to anyone who has
enough motivation to go looking for it.  When someone is diagnosed with
a major disease like diabetes it is their obligation to find out all
they can about it.  One of the first things I realized was this it is
an insidious disease that one is able to live with for a long time if
they are proactive.  Being proactive is not relying solely on a GP to
spoon feed you all the information needed to handle this very
complicated condition.  My GP immediately referred me to an endo who
provided me with the best and latest diabetes info.  But I stumbled the
first few years with my control, not because of anything he did or
didn't do, but because of my own mixture of denial and lack of
discipline.  That was a combination that could have proven dangerous
and fortunately I snapped out of it and decided to take charge of my
diabetes.

A doctor cannot come over to a patient's house every day and force the
medicine down them, or make sure they don't eat bad things, or force
them to exercise.

Best,
Kurt
Cheri - 30 Oct 2006 15:25 GMT
Kurt wrote in message

<1162176903.695640.244080@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>...
>There is lots of information on diabetes available to anyone who has
>enough motivation to go looking for it.  When someone is diagnosed with
>a major disease like diabetes it is their obligation to find out all
>they can about it.

Bingo! Don't depend on doctors to tell you, since many of them don't
know.

Cheri
bj - 30 Oct 2006 20:58 GMT
> There is lots of information on diabetes available to anyone who has
> enough motivation to go looking for it.  When someone is diagnosed with
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> and fortunately I snapped out of it and decided to take charge of my
> diabetes.

hang on a sec -- haven't you been saying "listen to your doctor" "don't do
it if your doctor doesn't say to" (or similar)?
Now you seem to be saying -- "research it yourself & be proactive & use what
you find out" -- you didn't even say "but check with your doctor first".
bj
(apologies if it wasn't you)
Kurt - 30 Oct 2006 21:28 GMT
> > There is lots of information on diabetes available to anyone who has
> > enough motivation to go looking for it.  When someone is diagnosed with
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> hang on a sec -- haven't you been saying "listen to your doctor" "don't do
> it if your doctor doesn't say to" (or similar)?

No, that is not what I've been saying.  I've always contended that one
needs to listen to their doctor and *also* to become proactive with
diabetes.  To be proactive one must learn as much as possible about it
and ask their doctor questions.  However, learning all one can about
diabetes doesn't mean to ignore one's doctor's advice and take the word
of a stranger on the internet, or to try and determine your care based
on reading random articles.

I'm repeating something from a post I made a while ago about my
personal "Living Pyramid" in regards to my diabetes, perhaps it will
clear up the confusion you're having with what I am all about:

**************************************

Much is discussed in here about the food pyramid that I started
thinking about another kind of pyramid that comes into play with my
diabetes.  For lack of a better description I'll call it my "Living
Pyramid" since it reflects how I live with my diabetes. I don't really
want to get specific with the percentages, so I will just describe what

I consider to be the different levels.

THE BASE: MY HEALTHCARE TEAM
This includes, first and foremost, my Endo.  He is the one who oversees

my care and whom I trust the most.  Whenever I go to him I have
pre-written questions and I also take notes about things that he tells
me.  The other part of the healthcare team involves my retinologist, my

podiatrist, nutritionist, and other "specialists" as needed.  I also
have a GP for things that aren't diabetes related...and sometimes I
actually have a condition that isn't.

SECOND LEVEL: MYSELF
Diabetes is a very "high maintenance" disease and I'm the one with it.
It must be dealt with 24/7 and I'm the one who has to be the one to do
the actual work.  Testing, exercising, eating, sleeping, medication,
and on and on.  It never ends.  I have the most to gain from proper
treatment and the most to lose from poor treatment.  This level is as
important as the first level and certainly mandates the most time.

THIRD LEVEL: RESEARCH
Knowledge is power. Thanks to the internet there is now a huge gateway
to finding out about diabetes.  Although I disagree with a lot of what
I read in this newsgroup, I find it an invaluable tool.  There is a
wealth of information here if it is taken in the proper context.  None
of us are doctors, but we all seem to represent the very small
percentage of diabetics who micro-manage their disease.  I've learned
just as much from those I disagree with than those who believe the way
I do; no doubt from digging a little deeper to prove my point:)  Also,
posters in here will discuss something about diabetes that I hadn't
even thought of.

FOURTH LEVEL: APPRECIATING MY EFFORTS
Whenever I get down about the constant attention I have to pay to
diabetes I try to keep in mind that all this hard work is worth it.
There is not much I can control about diabetes but I can control my bg
numbers, my diet, my exercise and going to my many doctor appointments.

I think we all need to appreciate ourselves being proactive with our
diabetes.

FIFTH LEVEL: HELPING OTHERS
This level is near the tip of the pyramid for me and some days I wish
it were a larger part.  This is not just about helping other people
with diabetes, but helping others with their problems.  When I do this
it makes me feel better and also reminds me that I'm not the only one
suffering in the world.  Diabetes is a heavy burden and tends to
consume us at times - helping others is a very good distraction.

SIXTH LEVEL: FORGETTING ABOUT MY DIABETES
The very tiny tip of the pyramid, but one that is necessary from time
to time.  I never ignore diabetes but I do try to forget about it
whenever I can. Some days the testing, exercising, and eating are so
automatic that I forget WHY I'm doing them.  It helps me become less
obsessive with my diabetes.

So that's my personal living pyramid.  YPMV - Your Pyramid May Vary
Gantlet - 30 Oct 2006 22:17 GMT
if the subject line was
When not to ignore your doctors advice.

I would say - when strangers on a news group tell you he/she is wrong.

lets face it no body is perfect not even doctors.  sure they make mistakes
or
choose the wrong treatment from time to time.   the body is complex and some
symtoms could
come about from many different things.

if i didnt trust my dr.  i would get a new one.

i would like to see the mistakes that would be made if anyone here was to
open a Dr's office
and treat patients.

Dr.s look at the big picture "your whole body" not just one part at a time
like many wanna be doctors.

even if there was someone here that was a doctor or knew enough to become
one.  i would still speak out when they try to interfere with a newbies
treatment.

Tom

>> > There is lots of information on diabetes available to anyone who has
>> > enough motivation to go looking for it.  When someone is diagnosed with
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
>
> So that's my personal living pyramid.  YPMV - Your Pyramid May Vary
Michelle - 31 Oct 2006 02:52 GMT
Hi Kurt,

I like your life pyramid.  I think the only difference between how my
pyramid would look and yours is that I include myself in my healthcare team
rather than separating it into a different category.  I especially like
"appreciating my efforts".  It's so easy to beat ourselves up when we mess
up; much better to pat ourselves on the back when we're successful.

Thanks for sharing.
Signature

Michelle, T2
diet & exercise

>> > There is lots of information on diabetes available to anyone who has
>> > enough motivation to go looking for it.  When someone is diagnosed with
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
>
> So that's my personal living pyramid.  YPMV - Your Pyramid May Vary
Gantlet - 30 Oct 2006 22:21 GMT
> hang on a sec -- haven't you been saying "listen to your doctor" "don't do
> it if your doctor doesn't say to" (or similar)?

i think when he does say something like that it is when a newbie is being
told
to do something from strangers in the internet.

> Now you seem to be saying -- "research it yourself & be proactive & use
> what
> you find out" -- you didn't even say "but check with your doctor first".
> bj
> (apologies if it wasn't you)

Kurt has always said to learn and do research.  trouble with most newbies i
see is that
they seem to do all their research here.  they never know who is saying
what.
they just keep reading oppinions being stated as fact.

Tom
W. Baker - 30 Oct 2006 23:08 GMT
: > > First the patients have to have good information. Personally, I don't
: > > feel that a doctor who has her nurse call and say you have diabetes,
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
: > anything a doctor could've done about that.  Unless a doctor's gonna
: > lock me up, he or she can't control my diet.

: There is lots of information on diabetes available to anyone who has
: enough motivation to go looking for it.  When someone is diagnosed with
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
: and fortunately I snapped out of it and decided to take charge of my
: diabetes.

: A doctor cannot come over to a patient's house every day and force the
: medicine down them, or make sure they don't eat bad things, or force
: them to exercise.

: Best,
: Kurt

What do you do with someone with a 3rd grade reading level, who works 2
minimum wage jobs just to keep going, is computer illiterate, and who's
doctor just says "stay off the sweets?" This is the case for many people.  
It is why there is a great need for diabetes clinics with full staffs that
can help all kinds of people who have trouble helping themselves.  Neither
the ADA website nor this group woudl be of much help to them.

Wendy
Kurt - 31 Oct 2006 00:05 GMT
> : There is lots of information on diabetes available to anyone who has
> : enough motivation to go looking for it.  When someone is diagnosed with
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> : medicine down them, or make sure they don't eat bad things, or force
> : them to exercise.

> What do you do with someone with a 3rd grade reading level, who works 2
> minimum wage jobs just to keep going, is computer illiterate, and who's
> doctor just says "stay off the sweets?" This is the case for many people.
> It is why there is a great need for diabetes clinics with full staffs that
> can help all kinds of people who have trouble helping themselves.  Neither
> the ADA website nor this group woudl be of much help to them.

Wendy, I don't pretend to have the answers to the world's problems. If
someone has a 3rd grade reading level, works two minimum wage jobs, or
decides to walk against a don't walk sign in busy traffic there's
really not much that you or I can do to help them with their lives, let
alone their diabetes.  Your idea of offering more clinics is a good one
and getting good free information out is what the ADA does with a lot
of their budget.  One does not need to be computer literate to get
help, they can pick up the phone and call the ADA to find out what
resources are available.  If they are broke then they can go to their
public library and check out resources there, too, including web
enabled computers.

I realize in this newsgroup people make it seem like every new diabetic
is doomed to find a doctor who tells them to just stay off sweets.
Personally, I have never met a doctor with that kind of flippant
dismissal of diabetes, nor have I ever heard of one among the people I
know well, or casually, who have been diagnosed with diabetes.  Not to
say there aren't a few that may be that misinformed, but no where near
the "many" that some in here make it out to be.  As a matter of fact
the only place that I have heard horror stories like that is right here
in a.s.d.  You have to admit this place seems to attract people who,
for the most part, don't really seem to need much help in the
motivation and discipline area of diabetic control.  IMO, a few stories
I read are legitimate and I am glad to see the person telling them has
found a way to get good information about diabetes, whether it
self-education or finding a better doctor.  But to be honest with you,
I think many of the "stories" like that I read in here are either gross
exaggerations or just people telling an outright lie to push their own
personal agenda.  Of course that is my opinion and you probably feel
differently.

The world is waking up to diabetes, unfortunately because it has become
an epidemic. Sadly, many people will go to good doctors and then choose
to ignore the advice, medication, and information that is provided to
them.  I'm not a negative person, but I truly believe most people just
don't have the discipline or personal stamina it takes to deal with
this very time consuming and hands on disease.

Kurt
Michelle - 31 Oct 2006 02:47 GMT
snipped for brevity, but read in full

> I realize in this newsgroup people make it seem like every new diabetic
> is doomed to find a doctor who tells them to just stay off sweets.
> Personally, I have never met a doctor with that kind of flippant
> dismissal of diabetes, nor have I ever heard of one among the people I
> know well, or casually, who have been diagnosed with diabetes.

Kurt,

I offer this observation.  Perhaps some (notice I didn't say "all") doctors
treat T1s a bit differently than they do T2s.  After all, T1 diabetes can be
acutely life-threatening.  And, as you know, because lifestyle often
contributes to a T2s woes, they can be viewed less charitably.  No one is
ever going to blame you for your form of diabetes.
Signature

Michelle, T2
diet & exercise

Kurt - 31 Oct 2006 19:55 GMT
> snipped for brevity, but read in full
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> acutely life-threatening.  And, as you know, because lifestyle often
> contributes to a T2s woes, they can be viewed less charitably.

I was referring to T2's that I know and have met.

>No one is
> ever going to blame you for your form of diabetes.

You have no idea how wrong that statement is.  Don't think for a moment
that you Type 2's have the market cornered on that one.

Kurt
Cheri - 31 Oct 2006 19:58 GMT
I never found that to be true in this newsgroup at all Kurt. I see many
people saying they have great docs etc. I haven't been so lucky, and
having the docs office call me to tell me to "lay off concentrated
sweets" with a fasting of 292 BTW was my experience, no advice, no
follow up, no nothing. I was on my own at that point, not knowing what
questions to ask etc. She has since left town, and I like the doctor I
have right now just fine, but I was thankful for these newsgroups in the
early years of diagnosis, and I still am. YMMV

--
Cheri

>"Kurt" <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com>
wrote in message
>news:1162249515.911387.189450@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> I realize in this newsgroup people make it seem like every new diabetic
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Kurt,
W. Baker - 31 Oct 2006 20:24 GMT
: > What do you do with someone with a 3rd grade reading level, who works
2 : > minimum wage jobs just to keep going, is computer illiterate, and
who's : > doctor just says "stay off the sweets?" This is the case for
many people. : > It is why there is a great need for diabetes clinics with
full staffs that : > can help all kinds of people who have trouble helping
themselves.  Neither : > the ADA website nor this group woudl be of much
help to them.

: Wendy, I don't pretend to have the answers to the world's problems. If :
someone has a 3rd grade reading level, works two minimum wage jobs, or :
decides to walk against a don't walk sign in busy traffic there's : really
not much that you or I can do to help them with their lives, let : alone
their diabetes.  Your idea of offering more clinics is a good one : and
getting good free information out is what the ADA does with a lot : of
their budget.  One does not need to be computer literate to get : help,
they can pick up the phone and call the ADA to find out what : resources
are available.  If they are broke then they can go to their : public
library and check out resources there, too, including web : enabled
computers.

: I realize in this newsgroup people make it seem like every new diabetic
: is doomed to find a doctor who tells them to just stay off sweets. :
Personally, I have never met a doctor with that kind of flippant :
dismissal of diabetes, nor have I ever heard of one among the people I :
know well, or casually, who have been diagnosed with diabetes.  Not to :
say there aren't a few that may be that misinformed, but no where near :
the "many" that some in here make it out to be.  As a matter of fact : the
only place that I have heard horror stories like that is right here : in
a.s.d.  You have to admit this place seems to attract people who, : for
the most part, don't really seem to need much help in the : motivation and
discipline area of diabetic control.  IMO, a few stories : I read are
legitimate and I am glad to see the person telling them has : found a way
to get good information about diabetes, whether it : self-education or
finding a better doctor.  But to be honest with you, : I think many of the
"stories" like that I read in here are either gross : exaggerations or
just people telling an outright lie to push their own : personal agenda.  
Of course that is my opinion and you probably feel : differently.

: The world is waking up to diabetes, unfortunately because it has become
: an epidemic. Sadly, many people will go to good doctors and then choose
: to ignore the advice, medication, and information that is provided to :
them.  I'm not a negative person, but I truly believe most people just :
don't have the discipline or personal stamina it takes to deal with : this
very time consuming and hands on disease.

: Kurt

I have had good and bad doctors.  When ZI was originally diagnosed, some
20 years ago, the interist I saw threw me into the hospital, put me on
insulin(22 units of lente, once a day, and told me to ea an 800 calorie
diet to loose weight.  He then sent a hospital based dietician to
introduce me to exchanges and work out this diet.  she did tht, but did
indicae her alarm at the low number of calories, explainign to me tht once
I reached a certain weight, my body would have adjusted to the very ow
calroie level and to continue loosing I woudl have to lower the calories
to an unhealthy level at which i could not be properly nourished.  I put
myself on a 1200 calorie diet, switched doctors to one knowledegable in
diabetes and lost 65 lbs and no longer needed any insuin tht the new
doctor said he never woudl have put me on, but since it was working, he
woudl keep me on it.  

several yers laer, my bg's were rising so I went to another internist who,
when I did not loose weight in the first few weeks said he couldn't help
me, as I was obviously cheating.  I went without any doctors for a while
and then found the diabetes clinic adn started  with a doctor who got me
onto metformin and lipitor and got my high bg;s under some control and I
worked wih  botha a diabetes educator who explained a great deal to me and
a dietician who pu me on a 1600 calorie diet with a fair amount of carbs.  

When the doctor I was seeing at the clinic left, I was assigned a new one
(the fellow I still see), who said that aiming for an FBG of 130 ws too
high and my A1c should be below 6.5.  He increasesd the metformin and put
me on bp meds too.  I was to aim for less that 110 for the FBG, which I
have achieved with teh help of the advice from this group and am
maintaining an A1c of between  5.2-5.8.

Some doctors good, some bad.  Some helpful and some not.  I have
maintained my weight loss, but have been unable to lose mor, but am , once
again trying.  

I am a reasonably intellegent person with only fair computer skills and I
work hard to achive decent control.  Some doctors have been very helpfull
and others less so.  I am able to now make judgements, but it tkes a while
to be  able to do that.

Wendy
Gantlet - 31 Oct 2006 21:31 GMT
"Kurt" <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> I realize in this newsgroup people make it seem like every new diabetic
> is doomed to find a doctor who tells them to just stay off sweets.

i think unless you are a low carber that the first step for many diabetics
would be to first get off the sweets.  I think the sweets were my biggest
problem
when i was first diagnosed.  the meals were very big as well :).  but most
of the carbs
and the worst carbs i was eating was when i was having one of my several
treats.
each diabetic will need to follow a different path to health.
some will do better on low carbs and some will do better on low fat.
for me eating the extra carbs simply means i cant sit down all day.
just keep busy enough to prevent rust.

> Personally, I have never met a doctor with that kind of flippant
> dismissal of diabetes, nor have I ever heard of one among the people I
> know well, or casually, who have been diagnosed with diabetes.

either have I but still wouldnt know enough about the newbie to say
if getting off the sweets is such a bad first step.  frankly with type 1's
living with diabetes as long as they do when they didnt even have meters
until not so long ago.
I think the RUSH, RUSH, RUSH is a bit hasty.  for myself i am happy with the
path i have choosen.
sure like just about anyone reading this, i can do more.  I am only human.

time to finish up on some work and then its UP UP and AWAY from the
computer.

Tom
Trinkwasser - 29 Oct 2006 20:04 GMT
>Yes, I run across that all the time with GPs.  They can't all be expert
>on everything and yet they provide an awful lot of diabetic care.  IMO,
>willingness to learn is much more important than diabetic knowledge.

ZING!!!

Yes exactly, A General Practitioner needs to know a bit about a lot.
The Renaissance was allegedly the last time one person could know
everything. I suspect it has been half a century or more since one
doctor could know everything about medicine.

<snips>

>> She was shocked to find that in short order I
>> got my a1c lower then 5 with diet and exercise alone by the information
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>not only on your experience, but on research, I'd call her an excellent
>doctor.

Yes!

If a doctor admits that they don't know something, and has to look it
up, that makes them *better* in my view.

If they adapt and apply what they've learned, that makes them better
still.

That's the whole point and purpose of CME papers, and the PDR, and
similar sources.

>No one can know everything - and I don't expect that from a doctor.
>
>I do expect them to be willing to change their treatment protocols when
>data proves theirs is not working though.

There are still doctors who stick to the Authoritarian model of
doctoring but fortunately they're becoming less common.
Jewel - 29 Oct 2006 21:51 GMT
> >Yes, I run across that all the time with GPs.  They can't all be expert
> >on everything and yet they provide an awful lot of diabetic care.  IMO,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> <snips>

To my way of thinking the HMOs are creating a great deal of the
problem.  Medicine had swung very much toward specialists and the GPs
would refer you whenever needed.  Now the HMOs they belong to give them
incentives to NOT refer patients to specialists.  Many insurance
companies won't let the GP refer you to a specialist unless they have
approved it and they are more than reluctant to approve.  It's all
about the stockholders and the bottom line.

The result of all this is the GPs have a lot more to handle and heavier
patient loads leaving them little or no time to even keep up on the
stuff a general practioner should know - much less all those
specialties.  Meanwhile the reduced patient load at the specialist's
office requires him/her to increase rates even further to cover their
overhead commitments accentuation the situation even further.

-Jewel
bj - 29 Oct 2006 22:52 GMT
>  Meanwhile the reduced patient load at the specialist's
> office requires him/her to increase rates even further to cover their
> overhead commitments accentuation the situation even further.

If the specialists have such reduced patient load that they have to increase
their fees, how come it can take weeks to get in as a new patient? And even
an existing patient can't get in right away unless it's an emergency.
bj
Susan - 30 Oct 2006 00:02 GMT
>> Meanwhile the reduced patient load at the specialist's
>>office requires him/her to increase rates even further to cover their
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> an existing patient can't get in right away unless it's an emergency.
> bj

I don't know about the rest of the world, but just about all the HMOs in
our choice list have open access, no referrals required, except for Aetna.

Susan
bj - 30 Oct 2006 20:58 GMT
> I don't know about the rest of the world, but just about all the HMOs in
> our choice list have open access, no referrals required, except for Aetna.

It's not getting a referral (which I don't need anyway), it's getting an
appointment with or without a referral.
bj
Susan - 30 Oct 2006 21:31 GMT
> It's not getting a referral (which I don't need anyway), it's getting an
> appointment with or without a referral.

I thought the problem an OP addressed was not being able to get a
referral from the PCP, due to incentives to limit them?

I've been waiting 4 mos. for the endo appt. I made last summer.  I don't
even know if he's any good, I haven't been able to find a positive
recommendation for one on Long Island yet, not a single one, not from
docs, not from pharmacists, not from patients.

Susan
BJ in Texas - 30 Oct 2006 14:14 GMT
|||  Meanwhile the reduced patient load at the specialist's
||| office requires him/her to increase rates even further to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
|| get in right away unless it's an emergency.
|| bj

Golf?   :-)

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