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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / October 2006

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question for Non-diabectic numbers

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Tony - 22 Oct 2006 07:48 GMT
does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers

does a person who isn't diabetic spike over 140-160 if he eats two cup cakes
an drinks a large coke? then comes back down in an hour?

thanks and it's late and it just popped in my head to ask.

tony
Chris Malcolm - 22 Oct 2006 09:53 GMT
> does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers

> does a person who isn't diabetic spike over 140-160 if he eats two cup cakes
> an drinks a large coke? then comes back down in an hour?

Could do, but if so, that person might be on the slippery slope of
insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome, or pre-diabetes. In other
words, the proper diagnosis might be "not diabetic *yet*". If you're
not diabetic *yet*, it's a good idea to take measures to slow down the
progression towards diabetes, not least because some of the
complications of diabetic damage, such as peripheral neuropathy, can
develop while you're still not *yet* diabetic.

Signature

Chris Malcolm        cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk              DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

jackiepatti@gmail.com - 22 Oct 2006 09:57 GMT
> does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers

My husband can eat 1/6th of a two layer chocolate cake with frosting
and his postprandial numbers remain in the 70's.

> does a person who isn't diabetic spike over 140-160 if he eats two cup cakes
> an drinks a large coke? then comes back down in an hour?

Well, that depends on what you mean by "person who isn't diabetic"...

My daughter spikes to the 120-140 range but does not do quite badly
enough on a GTT to be diagnosed as diabetic.  So she is a "person who
isn't diabetic" that spikes like that.

However, I do not consider that to be normal.  Normal is not to "spike"
- but to have a small range because your body handles sugar properly.
guy - 22 Oct 2006 10:52 GMT
>does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>tony

Here is a link to read  

   http://www.endocrineweb.com/diabetes/diagnosis.html
oldal4865 - 22 Oct 2006 12:53 GMT
>does anyone know where there stats on non-diabetic BG numbers
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>tony

   Could be.   I have seen comments on the medical sites to the effect that
the docs should ignore all sugars at 30-minutes-after eating because they
vary too much across the non-diabetic population to allow much rational
interpretation.

Some URL of interest:

See Glucose Tolerance and "Yo-Yo" at

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/diabetes-3.html

Jump in blood sugars after sugar-meal with excess liquid  (like your large
coke).

Note  4.9 mmol/L jump = 88 mg/dL jump

http://tinyurl.com/5zxzk

Some glucose tolerance test results for 10 people whose ability to suppress
a
spike ranges from very strong to very weak

http://www.rajeun.net/Diabetes%20and%20Hypoglycemia

Healthy young people and starchy meals

http://tinyurl.com/gxnme

Regards
 Old Al
Susan - 22 Oct 2006 13:41 GMT
> does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers
>
> does a person who isn't diabetic spike over 140-160 if he eats two cup cakes
> an drinks a large coke? then comes back down in an hour?

No.

Susan
ray - 22 Oct 2006 15:13 GMT
> does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers

According to Dr. Richard Bernstein's book "Diabetes Solution" the average
healthy non-diabetic has a BG of 83 +- a bit - most any time.

> does a person who isn't diabetic spike over 140-160 if he eats two cup cakes
> an drinks a large coke? then comes back down in an hour?

no.

> thanks and it's late and it just popped in my head to ask.
>
> tony
bj - 22 Oct 2006 19:59 GMT
>> does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers
>
> According to Dr. Richard Bernstein's book "Diabetes Solution" the average
> healthy non-diabetic has a BG of 83 +- a bit - most any time.

How has he determined this?
bj
Susan - 22 Oct 2006 20:47 GMT
> How has he determined this?
> bj

I believe his statement is closer to a range of 85-105, but that's from
memory.

Susan
bj - 22 Oct 2006 21:46 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes

>> How has he determined this?
>> bj
>>
> I believe his statement is closer to a range of 85-105, but that's from
> memory.

Well, whatever range he gives -- how did he determine it?
bj
Susan - 22 Oct 2006 21:50 GMT
> Well, whatever range he gives -- how did he determine it?
> bj

By reading the available research, I believe.

There have been studies that do very frequent samplings of blood insulin
and glucose levels following a glucose load.  I'm thinking some of these
were done on young, healthy, intact subjects.

Susan
ray - 22 Oct 2006 23:51 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Susan

I believe his numbers are determined from actual tests - lots of them.
ray - 22 Oct 2006 23:50 GMT
>>> does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> How has he determined this?
> bj

He has determined this by testing. For example when meter sales people
approach him - he asks for a demonstration.
Alan S - 23 Oct 2006 00:22 GMT
>>> does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>How has he determined this?
>bj

It's probably in more detail elsewhere in his book, but this
is from the footnote to page 112, revised edition 2003:

"I used to have some fun with nondiabetic sales reps when
they came into the office selling blood sugar meters. They
would be demonstrating a meter, which I would compare to my
own meter. I always used their blood because I've had enough
finger sticks. I'd "guess" their blood sugar. I'd make a
show of examining their skin, then give them a number. It
was always the same, but they didn't know that. The number
was 83 mg/dl. Inevitably I'd be within +/- 3mg/dl. You know,
of course, that I didn't have any special powers - it was
just that I'd seen so many random finger-stick readings form
nondiabetics, I knew what number the nondiabetic was likely
to show."

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Tarascon - Chateau du Roi Rene
Tony - 23 Oct 2006 00:41 GMT
Wow! Thank you all for the links and info.

Very much appreciated,

tony
Larry - 23 Oct 2006 02:28 GMT
Tony: I would say if your numbers are not diabetic range by definition
then you are not diabetic ...not even "almost pregnant".:+)

Larry
> Wow! Thank you all for the links and info.
>
> Very much appreciated,
>
> tony
bj - 23 Oct 2006 03:55 GMT
>>>> does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> nondiabetics, I knew what number the nondiabetic was likely
> to show."

So, it sounds like the same kind of anecdotal evidence that we get from
listmembers from time to time. Does it being said by Dr. B. make it "more
believable" (authoritative, official, ....) than when it's said by Poster
NNN?
bj
Roger Zoul - 23 Oct 2006 04:04 GMT
::: On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 18:59:11 GMT, "bj"
::: <bjones44@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
:: it's said by Poster NNN?
:: bj

Yes.
Alan S - 23 Oct 2006 04:31 GMT
>>>>> does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>NNN?
>bj

Hi bj

Well, yes, to me it does. I am more inclined to lean to the
statements of a person who is:

A type 1 diabetic.
A qualified engineer trained in logic and the scientific
process.
A qualified doctor.
A person who has devoted the major part of his life to
studying diabetes in all three capacities.
Someone who has personally conducted and recorded many BG
tests on himself, diagnosed diabetics of all types, and
non-diabetics (which also means that it is not just
anecdotal)
A person who is demonstrably real, from his public
appearances.

Rather than lean to anonymous poster NNN.

That doesn't mean that I take what either says or writes as
gospel, or that I would automatically discount poster NNN -
I test all such statements against my own experience and
glean those bits that suit me.

Incidentally, I have seen several reports in scientific
papers that show some quite significant post-prandial BG
numbers (140+) at 90 minutes. What fails to be noted in
those reports is how much they may be skewed by the
population of undiagnosed diabetics participating.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Tarascon - Chateau du Roi Rene
Chris Malcolm - 23 Oct 2006 10:44 GMT
>>>>>> does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>>
> Hi bj

> Well, yes, to me it does. I am more inclined to lean to the
> statements of a person who is:

> A type 1 diabetic.
> A qualified engineer trained in logic and the scientific
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> A person who is demonstrably real, from his public
> appearances.

> Rather than lean to anonymous poster NNN.

> That doesn't mean that I take what either says or writes as
> gospel, or that I would automatically discount poster NNN -
> I test all such statements against my own experience and
> glean those bits that suit me.

> Incidentally, I have seen several reports in scientific
> papers that show some quite significant post-prandial BG
> numbers (140+) at 90 minutes. What fails to be noted in
> those reports is how much they may be skewed by the
> population of undiagnosed diabetics participating.

Exactly. I once tried to find out what the figures were for normal
adult human hearing at various ages. By "normal" I meant someone who
had never been exposed to hearing-damaging noise, since even firing a
gun once without ear muffs causes a slight but measurable permanent
hearing loss. As I looked into it I had to exclude anyone who had used
power tools in an enclosed space, ridden a motorcycle without ear
protection, used an underground train service as noisy as London
Underground, attended a disco or pop concert, etc. You get the
idea. Every survey of people with supposedly normal hearing had been
contaminated by the presence of people with mild hearing damage. In
fact it began to look as though the age-related hearing-loss curves in
resarch papers might really be the hearing-loss curves of people
suffering from the average hearing damage of modern life.

It's very hard indeed to find a survey of the BG behaviour of people
who have been screened for the absence of diabetic tendencies,
undiagnosed diabetes, impaired glucose response, etc.. Doctors
generally accept that as we age most people will develop impaired
glucose tolerance anyway. But is that normal? Or is it the average
damage to glucose control one should expect in people who eat and live
the way we do?

Same problem with what is normal weight. The famous "obesity epidemic"
hit the headlines when the WHO finally managed to persuade the US
medical authorities to stop repeatedly shifting their definition of
obesity upwards as the US population got fatter, and suddenly millions
of Americans became "obese" overnight.

Suppose you wanted to get an estimate of what normal human
cardiovascular fitness was -- not average, but normal, how evolution
(or God) designed us to work at our best. Would you include or exclude
car owners from your sample population? Would you include or exclude
office desk workers?

I have a 35 year old friend who is obese, but also very fit. He
thought he might be diabetic, so we tested his BG after eating a large
candy bar, a frequent snack of his. It simply didn't budge a jot above
90. So he then drank a litre of orange juice and we tested at 15
minute intervals. At half an hour his BG hit a peak of 95.

Given the views of people like respected AACE endocrinologist and
diabetologist Dr Bernstein, I'm tempted to suppose that that kind of
rock solid control is indeed normal undamaged human BG control, and
that while only a small proportion of the human population are
actually diabetic, by the age of 60 most people have suffered some BG
control damage, i.e., are in the state of being "not diabetic yet",
and unless medical science succeeds in prolonging our lives
substantially, they'll probably die before the damage reaches a
diagnosably diabetic stage.

It would be interesting to find a population of native
hunter-gatherers somewhere and gather detailed medical statistics,
then to gather medical statistics of a population of primitive peasant
farmers who don't have cars or tractors and do it all by hand and
hoof, and then to compare those medical statistics with the population
of, say, London or New York.

Signature

Chris Malcolm        cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk              DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

ray - 23 Oct 2006 16:47 GMT
>>>>>> does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
> d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
> Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Touche!
 
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