Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / October 2006
question for Non-diabectic numbers
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Tony - 22 Oct 2006 07:48 GMT does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers
does a person who isn't diabetic spike over 140-160 if he eats two cup cakes an drinks a large coke? then comes back down in an hour?
thanks and it's late and it just popped in my head to ask.
tony
Chris Malcolm - 22 Oct 2006 09:53 GMT > does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers
> does a person who isn't diabetic spike over 140-160 if he eats two cup cakes > an drinks a large coke? then comes back down in an hour? Could do, but if so, that person might be on the slippery slope of insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome, or pre-diabetes. In other words, the proper diagnosis might be "not diabetic *yet*". If you're not diabetic *yet*, it's a good idea to take measures to slow down the progression towards diabetes, not least because some of the complications of diabetic damage, such as peripheral neuropathy, can develop while you're still not *yet* diabetic.
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
jackiepatti@gmail.com - 22 Oct 2006 09:57 GMT > does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers My husband can eat 1/6th of a two layer chocolate cake with frosting and his postprandial numbers remain in the 70's.
> does a person who isn't diabetic spike over 140-160 if he eats two cup cakes > an drinks a large coke? then comes back down in an hour? Well, that depends on what you mean by "person who isn't diabetic"...
My daughter spikes to the 120-140 range but does not do quite badly enough on a GTT to be diagnosed as diabetic. So she is a "person who isn't diabetic" that spikes like that.
However, I do not consider that to be normal. Normal is not to "spike" - but to have a small range because your body handles sugar properly.
guy - 22 Oct 2006 10:52 GMT >does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >tony Here is a link to read
http://www.endocrineweb.com/diabetes/diagnosis.html
oldal4865 - 22 Oct 2006 12:53 GMT >does anyone know where there stats on non-diabetic BG numbers > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >tony Could be. I have seen comments on the medical sites to the effect that the docs should ignore all sugars at 30-minutes-after eating because they vary too much across the non-diabetic population to allow much rational interpretation.
Some URL of interest:
See Glucose Tolerance and "Yo-Yo" at
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/diabetes-3.html
Jump in blood sugars after sugar-meal with excess liquid (like your large coke).
Note 4.9 mmol/L jump = 88 mg/dL jump
http://tinyurl.com/5zxzk
Some glucose tolerance test results for 10 people whose ability to suppress a spike ranges from very strong to very weak
http://www.rajeun.net/Diabetes%20and%20Hypoglycemia
Healthy young people and starchy meals
http://tinyurl.com/gxnme
Regards Old Al
Susan - 22 Oct 2006 13:41 GMT > does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers > > does a person who isn't diabetic spike over 140-160 if he eats two cup cakes > an drinks a large coke? then comes back down in an hour? No.
Susan
ray - 22 Oct 2006 15:13 GMT > does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers According to Dr. Richard Bernstein's book "Diabetes Solution" the average healthy non-diabetic has a BG of 83 +- a bit - most any time.
> does a person who isn't diabetic spike over 140-160 if he eats two cup cakes > an drinks a large coke? then comes back down in an hour? no.
> thanks and it's late and it just popped in my head to ask. > > tony bj - 22 Oct 2006 19:59 GMT >> does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers > > According to Dr. Richard Bernstein's book "Diabetes Solution" the average > healthy non-diabetic has a BG of 83 +- a bit - most any time. How has he determined this? bj
Susan - 22 Oct 2006 20:47 GMT > How has he determined this? > bj I believe his statement is closer to a range of 85-105, but that's from memory.
Susan
bj - 22 Oct 2006 21:46 GMT > x-no-archive: yes
>> How has he determined this? >> bj >> > I believe his statement is closer to a range of 85-105, but that's from > memory. Well, whatever range he gives -- how did he determine it? bj
Susan - 22 Oct 2006 21:50 GMT > Well, whatever range he gives -- how did he determine it? > bj By reading the available research, I believe.
There have been studies that do very frequent samplings of blood insulin and glucose levels following a glucose load. I'm thinking some of these were done on young, healthy, intact subjects.
Susan
ray - 22 Oct 2006 23:51 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Susan I believe his numbers are determined from actual tests - lots of them.
ray - 22 Oct 2006 23:50 GMT >>> does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > How has he determined this? > bj He has determined this by testing. For example when meter sales people approach him - he asks for a demonstration.
Alan S - 23 Oct 2006 00:22 GMT >>> does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >How has he determined this? >bj It's probably in more detail elsewhere in his book, but this is from the footnote to page 112, revised edition 2003:
"I used to have some fun with nondiabetic sales reps when they came into the office selling blood sugar meters. They would be demonstrating a meter, which I would compare to my own meter. I always used their blood because I've had enough finger sticks. I'd "guess" their blood sugar. I'd make a show of examining their skin, then give them a number. It was always the same, but they didn't know that. The number was 83 mg/dl. Inevitably I'd be within +/- 3mg/dl. You know, of course, that I didn't have any special powers - it was just that I'd seen so many random finger-stick readings form nondiabetics, I knew what number the nondiabetic was likely to show."
Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/ latest: Tarascon - Chateau du Roi Rene
Tony - 23 Oct 2006 00:41 GMT Wow! Thank you all for the links and info.
Very much appreciated,
tony
Larry - 23 Oct 2006 02:28 GMT Tony: I would say if your numbers are not diabetic range by definition then you are not diabetic ...not even "almost pregnant".:+)
Larry
> Wow! Thank you all for the links and info. > > Very much appreciated, > > tony bj - 23 Oct 2006 03:55 GMT >>>> does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > nondiabetics, I knew what number the nondiabetic was likely > to show." So, it sounds like the same kind of anecdotal evidence that we get from listmembers from time to time. Does it being said by Dr. B. make it "more believable" (authoritative, official, ....) than when it's said by Poster NNN? bj
Roger Zoul - 23 Oct 2006 04:04 GMT ::: On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 18:59:11 GMT, "bj" ::: <bjones44@bellatlantic.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] :: it's said by Poster NNN? :: bj Yes.
Alan S - 23 Oct 2006 04:31 GMT >>>>> does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers >>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >NNN? >bj Hi bj
Well, yes, to me it does. I am more inclined to lean to the statements of a person who is:
A type 1 diabetic. A qualified engineer trained in logic and the scientific process. A qualified doctor. A person who has devoted the major part of his life to studying diabetes in all three capacities. Someone who has personally conducted and recorded many BG tests on himself, diagnosed diabetics of all types, and non-diabetics (which also means that it is not just anecdotal) A person who is demonstrably real, from his public appearances.
Rather than lean to anonymous poster NNN.
That doesn't mean that I take what either says or writes as gospel, or that I would automatically discount poster NNN - I test all such statements against my own experience and glean those bits that suit me.
Incidentally, I have seen several reports in scientific papers that show some quite significant post-prandial BG numbers (140+) at 90 minutes. What fails to be noted in those reports is how much they may be skewed by the population of undiagnosed diabetics participating.
Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. -- http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/ latest: Tarascon - Chateau du Roi Rene
Chris Malcolm - 23 Oct 2006 10:44 GMT >>>>>> does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> > Hi bj
> Well, yes, to me it does. I am more inclined to lean to the > statements of a person who is:
> A type 1 diabetic. > A qualified engineer trained in logic and the scientific [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > A person who is demonstrably real, from his public > appearances.
> Rather than lean to anonymous poster NNN.
> That doesn't mean that I take what either says or writes as > gospel, or that I would automatically discount poster NNN - > I test all such statements against my own experience and > glean those bits that suit me.
> Incidentally, I have seen several reports in scientific > papers that show some quite significant post-prandial BG > numbers (140+) at 90 minutes. What fails to be noted in > those reports is how much they may be skewed by the > population of undiagnosed diabetics participating. Exactly. I once tried to find out what the figures were for normal adult human hearing at various ages. By "normal" I meant someone who had never been exposed to hearing-damaging noise, since even firing a gun once without ear muffs causes a slight but measurable permanent hearing loss. As I looked into it I had to exclude anyone who had used power tools in an enclosed space, ridden a motorcycle without ear protection, used an underground train service as noisy as London Underground, attended a disco or pop concert, etc. You get the idea. Every survey of people with supposedly normal hearing had been contaminated by the presence of people with mild hearing damage. In fact it began to look as though the age-related hearing-loss curves in resarch papers might really be the hearing-loss curves of people suffering from the average hearing damage of modern life.
It's very hard indeed to find a survey of the BG behaviour of people who have been screened for the absence of diabetic tendencies, undiagnosed diabetes, impaired glucose response, etc.. Doctors generally accept that as we age most people will develop impaired glucose tolerance anyway. But is that normal? Or is it the average damage to glucose control one should expect in people who eat and live the way we do?
Same problem with what is normal weight. The famous "obesity epidemic" hit the headlines when the WHO finally managed to persuade the US medical authorities to stop repeatedly shifting their definition of obesity upwards as the US population got fatter, and suddenly millions of Americans became "obese" overnight.
Suppose you wanted to get an estimate of what normal human cardiovascular fitness was -- not average, but normal, how evolution (or God) designed us to work at our best. Would you include or exclude car owners from your sample population? Would you include or exclude office desk workers?
I have a 35 year old friend who is obese, but also very fit. He thought he might be diabetic, so we tested his BG after eating a large candy bar, a frequent snack of his. It simply didn't budge a jot above 90. So he then drank a litre of orange juice and we tested at 15 minute intervals. At half an hour his BG hit a peak of 95.
Given the views of people like respected AACE endocrinologist and diabetologist Dr Bernstein, I'm tempted to suppose that that kind of rock solid control is indeed normal undamaged human BG control, and that while only a small proportion of the human population are actually diabetic, by the age of 60 most people have suffered some BG control damage, i.e., are in the state of being "not diabetic yet", and unless medical science succeeds in prolonging our lives substantially, they'll probably die before the damage reaches a diagnosably diabetic stage.
It would be interesting to find a population of native hunter-gatherers somewhere and gather detailed medical statistics, then to gather medical statistics of a population of primitive peasant farmers who don't have cars or tractors and do it all by hand and hoof, and then to compare those medical statistics with the population of, say, London or New York.
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
ray - 23 Oct 2006 16:47 GMT >>>>>> does anyone know where there stats on non-diabectic BG numbers >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg > Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. Touche!
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