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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / October 2003

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Newcomer, Newly Diagnosed (long)

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RL - 26 Oct 2003 21:18 GMT
Hi,

This past Tuesday, a doctor confirmed what I had suspected for some time
- that I am diabetic. Although I had some of the symptoms for years,
particularly the excess thirst, the thing that really got another doctor
in the same practice to order the glucose tolerance test for me were
symptoms of peripheral neuropathy. A person to whom I am related by
marriage told me a couple of months ago that she suffers from this
condition and that most people who have it are diabetic, but she is not.
I went to a book and looked up peripheral neuropathy, and sounded a
whole lot like what I had been experiencing.

My symptoms - since mid-2001, I have been feeling something like a lump
or knot on the bottom of one foot. I had an MRI on - can't forget the
date - Sept. 11, 2001 (set up weeks in advance, and we weren't about to
cancel it). Nothing showed up. Then, on my other foot, I started to feel
pain in a couple of the small toes around this past May. I checked web
sites for possible causes but didn't find any with the possible
exception of tight shoes. Well, this is something I avoid anyway - my
shoes are anything but tight.

I was going to the doctor for a physical in mid-Sept. anyway, so I
mentioned this. He wrote me a prescription to go to a local lab to have
this test done. I was able to get there in early Oct. Due to busy times
at work and at home, I didn't nag the doctor's office for test results
until Monday, which I finally did because the previous two nights, I
couldn't sleep because both feet were burning so badly. I got an
appointment for Tuesday with a practice partner of the doctor who had
done the physical exam. By the way, there are about 7 MDs in this
practice, and I've seen each one at least once over the 13 years I've
been going there, and I am comfortable with all of them. However, the
one who did the physical is considered to be my primary doctor.

The doctor showed me my test results during the Tuesday visit. I have
been given the following information and prescriptions:

1. Metformin HCL 500 mg once a day with food for the diabetes. Because I
have traditional health insurance where I have to pay 20% of all
prescriptions, instead of a co-pay, I told him that a $150 prescription
would cost me $30, not some low co-pay amount. (And I have to put
everything out up front and wait for reimbursement, so that's a
hardship, too.) So I requested something that has a generic available.
It turns out that what he originally wrote on the prescription pad does
not have a generic available, so he ended up writing this one, to see
how it works. Otherwise, we'll go back to the one that's $150 a month.
This one was in the $12-$13 dollar range, and I guess I'll get 80% of it
back in a few weeks.

2. Amitriptyline HCL 25 mg once a day at bedtime for the foot problem. I
took this years ago for something else. I've been pretty drowsy since
Thursday, but I had to go to work Thurs. and Friday. Thursday, I needed
the car to go somewhere right from work, but I was able to get there on
public transportation on Friday and will probably take public
transportation the early part of the coming work week. I cancelled all
plans to go places this weekend, and I'm taking it easy. That extra hour
due to the clock change definitely helped! (Only about $4 and some change.)

3. A phone number for a diabetes education program at the hospital with
which these doctors are affiliated. I left a voice mail message there
around 9:00 Wednesday morning, and I have not heard back. I suspect it's
the wrong number, and I've found a different number on their web site
that I'll call tomorrow. I also went to the web site of a hospital
that's closer to where I live and found an online form I could use to
request information on their program. I hope these hospitals have
classes in the evening.

4. A recommendation that I make another appointment to see the doctor
who originally ordered the tests within the following two weeks. I did
this, and I'll be going on Wednesday of this week.

5. And the admonition - "no sweets!" Well, this is going to be tough.
What does this mean exactly? Does this mean that I can NEVER have a
Milky Way candy bar again? Does it mean that I can't sample a piece of
the cake if I go to a wedding? And if a brand of salsa that I was
thinking of buying lists "sugar" near the END of the list of
ingredients, does this make it a no-no?

Some information about me - I am female, age 51, about 40-50 pounds
overweight (a somewhat recent development). I caught a quick glimpse of
the test results, and my triglycerides (sp?) were 700-something or
800-something. My cholesterol was 285, but it has always been high -
runs in my family. Also, diabetes runs in my family - possibly on both
sides.

The doctor I saw last Tuesday told me that if I lost 25 pounds, I could
very well shake the diabetes out of my system. This is a goal I've had
anyway, since it would allow me to reclaim a lot of my nice clothes that
I can't wear now, plus I'd be able to go from Queen size panythose to a
size B. It would probably take me 6-8 months to drop this weight, but I
am determined to do it.

I have alternating thoughts. The first one is that this is indeed only a
6-8 month inconvenience, similar to one experienced by a woman I know
who had gestational diabetes when she was pregnant. And while I'd be in
a situation in which it could come back, I would take better care of my
body so it won't.

The second thought is that I am permanently damaged and doomed. After
all, I already have peripheral neuropathy, which apparently takes some
time to develop and may be a sign that my diabetes is pretty far along.
I have had tests in the past before, but none as extensive as the one I
had this month. Three years ago, I tested normal. So, now I'm thinking -
how long until foot amputations? how long until I go blind? how long
until my kidneys go out, and I need dialysys? how long until I need to
take insulin? how long until I die?

I hope you'll put up with me.
Signature

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Colleen - 26 Oct 2003 22:03 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> This one was in the $12-$13 dollar range, and I guess I'll get 80% of it
> back in a few weeks.

Metformin is a pretty standard med for diabetes.  You are on a low dose
right now.  Generally the effective dose is 1500mg.  Some people need less,
some more.  Doctors start it low because it can cause temporary gastric
problems.  They usually go away in a week or so.

> 2. Amitriptyline HCL 25 mg once a day at bedtime for the foot problem. I
> took this years ago for something else. I've been pretty drowsy since
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> request information on their program. I hope these hospitals have
> classes in the evening.

A diabetes class is essential.  There is a lot to learn and it can be VERY
confusing.  My best advice is to take it a step at a time.  Read Jennifer's
advice to newbies and check out the ASD web-page.  There's loads of
information there.  Be prepared to educate yourself.  The more you know the
healthier you'll be.

> 4. A recommendation that I make another appointment to see the doctor
> who originally ordered the tests within the following two weeks. I did
> this, and I'll be going on Wednesday of this week.

One thing you'll need to know is your A1c.  It's a blood test to check the 3
mo. average BG (blood glucose) levels in your blood.  It's actually a little
more complicated than that but the average is the easiest way to explain it.

> 5. And the admonition - "no sweets!" Well, this is going to be tough.
> What does this mean exactly? Does this mean that I can NEVER have a
> Milky Way candy bar again? Does it mean that I can't sample a piece of
> the cake if I go to a wedding? And if a brand of salsa that I was
> thinking of buying lists "sugar" near the END of the list of
> ingredients, does this make it a no-no?

Carbohydrates raise BG.  Sugar is a carb.  So is bread, potatoes, corn,
peas, pasta...a lot of processed foods are loaded with hidden carbs.  A good
diabetes class and an appointment with a dietician will get you started.  It
is very confusing at first but after a few months it becomes secon nature.
You may be able to have a bite of a Milky Way bar again.  You probably can't
have it in addition to a meal.  In the beginning, it's best to avoid easily
identified sweets.  You'll learn to appreciate tastes of foods rather than
servings.

> Some information about me - I am female, age 51, about 40-50 pounds
> overweight (a somewhat recent development). I caught a quick glimpse of
> the test results, and my triglycerides (sp?) were 700-something or
> 800-something. My cholesterol was 285, but it has always been high -
> runs in my family. Also, diabetes runs in my family - possibly on both
> sides.

I'd recommend getting a copy of your lab reports.  The numbers and results
may be confusing now but will help you learn to control diabetes with time.

> The doctor I saw last Tuesday told me that if I lost 25 pounds, I could
> very well shake the diabetes out of my system. This is a goal I've had
> anyway, since it would allow me to reclaim a lot of my nice clothes that
> I can't wear now, plus I'd be able to go from Queen size panythose to a
> size B. It would probably take me 6-8 months to drop this weight, but I
> am determined to do it.

You can NOT shake diabetes out of your system.  You got it.  Period.  With
diet, exercise and meds if needed, you can control an be relatively healthy.
I've lost 45 pounds in the past year.  My diabetes is under EXCELLENT
control.  However, the small piece of lemon meringue pie I had last night at
a family dinner reminded me that I still am diabetic.  The key is that today
I went back to my normal WOE (way of eating.)  For me, normal is mostly
unprocessed foods, lotsa veggies, fish, chicken, whole grains, healthy oils
and small amounts of certain fruits.  When you make this your normal WOE you
will feel a lot better.
BTW periperal neuropathy pain can lessen with good diabetic control.

> I have alternating thoughts. The first one is that this is indeed only a
> 6-8 month inconvenience, similar to one experienced by a woman I know
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> all, I already have peripheral neuropathy, which apparently takes some
> time to develop and may be a sign that my diabetes is pretty far along.

It is estimated that a lot of T2's have had diabetes for 7-10 years before
diagnosis.  The diagnositic standards are becoming tighter all the time.
What may have been considered normal levels several years ago are now
considered diabetic levels.

> I have had tests in the past before, but none as extensive as the one I
> had this month. Three years ago, I tested normal. So, now I'm thinking -
> how long until foot amputations? how long until I go blind? how long
> until my kidneys go out, and I need dialysys? how long until I need to
> take insulin? how long until I die?

No one can say for sure how long before any complications set in.  One thing
you will hear EVERYONE say is that tight control will tip the odds in your
favor of living well and healthy.

> I hope you'll put up with me.

Always willing to help a newbie out.  Keep posting.  There's a lot to learn
and a lot of good knowledgable people here.

Signature

c

website  http://www.plazaearth.com/philo

Colleen - 26 Oct 2003 22:06 GMT
I've got to learn to read which group I'm posting too.  The ASD I mentioned
is the other diabetes group that a lot of us post to.  It's
alt.support.diabetes .   There's a lot of help in both groups.
c

> > Hi,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 155 lines]
> Always willing to help a newbie out.  Keep posting.  There's a lot to learn
> and a lot of good knowledgable people here.
RL - 26 Oct 2003 22:56 GMT
Thanks for your help so far. I'll make comments on comments.

>>1. Metformin HCL 500 mg once a day with food for the diabetes.
>
> Metformin is a pretty standard med for diabetes.  You are on a low dose
> right now.  Generally the effective dose is 1500mg.  Some people need less,
> some more.  Doctors start it low because it can cause temporary gastric
> problems.  They usually go away in a week or so.

Yes, I was told there may be gastric problems. So far, there's nothing yet.

>>3. A phone number for a diabetes education program at the hospital with
>>which these doctors are affiliated.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> information there.  Be prepared to educate yourself.  The more you know the
> healthier you'll be.

According to your other message, ASD is alt.support.diabetes, which is
where I am posting right now. I read some messages in this group as well
as in alt.food.diabetes and misc.health.diabetes in Google, and I just
subscribed to all three groups in my ISP's newsserver. I've only posted
here so far, though. I did find Jennifer's web page, so I'll go back to
it soon.

>>4. A recommendation that I make another appointment to see the doctor
>>who originally ordered the tests within the following two weeks.
>
> One thing you'll need to know is your A1c.  It's a blood test to check the 3
> mo. average BG (blood glucose) levels in your blood.  It's actually a little
> more complicated than that but the average is the easiest way to explain it.

I guess I'll learn all of these things. As long as I'm not taking
insulin, I DON'T EXPECT TO HAVE TO DO ANYTHING THAT INVOLVES A NEEDLE
GOING INTO MY BODY ON A DAILY BASIS! Please reassure me that I won't
have to do this while still following the proper treatment regimen!

>>5. And the admonition - "no sweets!" Well, this is going to be tough.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> identified sweets.  You'll learn to appreciate tastes of foods rather than
> servings.

I've been surviving on pretzels and fresh fruit the past few days,
instead of my Weight Watchers brand desserts, when I've wanted a snack.
The doctor I saw on Tuesday told me that these were okay. (So far, no
problems that cause me to cut back on salt, except that I had personally
made this decision recently because I had throat problems that were
aggravated by the feel of salt.) And one of my favorite things to eat is
PLAIN pasta (no sauce, no butter, no cheese). I'm starting to feel
discouraged already - first, I'm told no sweets, and now I'm being
forewarned that I won't be able to eat some other stuff that sounded
healthy to me. I'm a fussy eater to begin with, and now so many of the
things that I do eat that I didn't think were that bad may be off-limits
to me.

>Some information about me - I am female, age 51, about 40-50 pounds
>>overweight (a somewhat recent development). I caught a quick glimpse of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I'd recommend getting a copy of your lab reports.  The numbers and results
> may be confusing now but will help you learn to control diabetes with time.

I'll ask for them on Wednesday when I go to the doctor.

>>The doctor I saw last Tuesday told me that if I lost 25 pounds, I could
>>very well shake the diabetes out of my system.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> will feel a lot better.
> BTW periperal neuropathy pain can lessen with good diabetic control.

"Shake out of ... system" is my phrase, not his. I just couldn't think
of his exact words, so I just put in some words of my own to describe
what I thought was his intent. But I did get the impression from what he
said that this was something that COULD go away with the proper care,
and if I watched myself after it went away, it wouldn't come back again.
I'm really depressed now thinking that there's no way I can ever be a
non-diabetic again. Since Tuesday, I had had the hope that there was a
chance.

>>I have alternating thoughts. The first one is that this is indeed only a
>>6-8 month inconvenience, similar to one experienced by a woman I know
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> What may have been considered normal levels several years ago are now
> considered diabetic levels.

About 5 years ago, when I went for my gynecological exam, I mentioned to
the doctor I saw then that I had some diabetic symptoms. I know that
some test was done, but every time I called the office to find out the
results, no one was able to tell me anything. I finally gave up,
thinking that if something were really wrong, they'd have gotten in
touch with me. I've since been back for other exams (different doctors,
because this is a large practice with lots of turnover, and the one I
saw in '98 has moved on), and no one has ever mentioned it to me. I know
that the doctor I saw there this year - one I hadn't seen before - had
read my medical history, because when I showed her the scar from an old
operation, she knew all about it.

And apparently, I had another test three years ago, through the internal
medicine practice, because the doctor I saw this time had the record of
it. I'm sure I've pestered doctors about this since the 1970s (because
of my family history)! Even when I was normal weight or even slightly
underweight. I've always been very thirsty, one of the symptoms.

>>I have had tests in the past before, but none as extensive as the one I
>>had this month. Three years ago, I tested normal. So, now I'm thinking -
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> you will hear EVERYONE say is that tight control will tip the odds in your
> favor of living well and healthy.

I'll do what I have to do to stay healthy.

Signature

Remove nospam wherever it appears in my email address to reply.

Fester - 26 Oct 2003 23:29 GMT
> Thanks for your help so far. I'll make comments on comments.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Yes, I was told there may be gastric problems. So far, there's nothing yet.

LOL ... or from what everyone seems to say, chronic wind ;) I've never heard
it called "gastric problems" before:)

> >>3. A phone number for a diabetes education program at the hospital with
> >>which these doctors are affiliated.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> GOING INTO MY BODY ON A DAILY BASIS! Please reassure me that I won't
> have to do this while still following the proper treatment regimen!

I can't reassure you on that as i'm T1. What i can say though is that even
though i am petrified of needles that doctors use and pass out at nearly
every blood sample they take, none of my diabetic needles cause me a
problem. It never hurts, never feels strange injecting myself even though i
was convinced at DX that i'd hate it or not be able to do it. With diabetes
i've found quite recently that you can take nothing for granted and it's all
subject to change with little or no notice, sadly diabetes doesn't come with
a contract stating what it will do and what you will need to do when
treating it ;)

I was also worried about the stigma attached to injecting when out for
meals, but with the latest pens you can do all this without anyone being any
the wiser or noticing what you're doing. In ten years only the people i've
wanted to see me injecting have seen or noticed me doing it.

On a lighter note, i'd take a little prick 5 times a day over a chronic case
of metformin wind any time ;) Strange paradox, i'd rather inject 5 times a
day than live out of a pill bottle .... funny old world ;)

> >>5. And the admonition - "no sweets!" Well, this is going to be tough.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
> >>until my kidneys go out, and I need dialysys? how long until I need to
> >>take insulin? how long until I die?

I've eaten like a pig, eaten 1kg bars of chocolate ... sometimes 4 or 5
chocolate bars a day every day for the last ten years on and off. I have no
neuropathy, no high blood pressure, no other complications until i scared
myself when my eyes showed up some changes on the photos. I've now packed in
being stupid and pretending i was superhuman. However it does illustrate
that some people can get away  with a lot for a long time and not see too
many complications. What you can never forecast is what damage you will do
to yourself in years to come by not sorting yourself out as fast as you can.
As for me, i try not to  think about the complications even though i'm
starting to get one of them. You have to live and enjoy your life, diabetes
will for me always come second to that. How long till anyone dies, we all do
.. it's our one great certainty in life:) Again i agree with Colleen, none
of us is guaranteed anything in this life not even those lucky people who
only get nice curable dieases. I do know that as a reformed diabetic i'll
live a lot longer and in better health than i would have done if becoming
diabetic hadn't forced me ( eventually ) to change my lifestyle. I'd have
been dead from drink or drugs or heart attack in ten years if i'd not got
this.

> > No one can say for sure how long before any complications set in.  One thing
> > you will hear EVERYONE say is that tight control will tip the odds in your
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> --
> Remove nospam wherever it appears in my email address to reply.

I'd mirror all that Colleen says about control helps. I've gone from no
control 3 months ago to running numbers that i'd have believed impossible
last year. Hba1c dropped from 11.7 down to 8.8 in less than 2 months. With
some loose carbohydrate counting and regular testing i'm getting my 2 hour
numbers down to 6 mmol/l or 108 in your numbers.  FBG is now sitting at
between 75 and 90. As a T1 i can't run lower than that in any degree of
safety.  The thing i guess i've learnt the hard way that diet is the key to
it all. Since i started watching what i eat, and more importantly eating
food that isn't loaded with carbs my blood sugar has become so much easier
to maintain.
Alan - 26 Oct 2003 23:40 GMT
>I'll do what I have to do to stay healthy.

Hi RL

That's the most important thing you've said so far :-)

Welcome to your new life. I know you didn't want to be here, but now
that you are, you couldn't have come to a better place.

I won't repeat everything that Colleen said, others will be along with
good advice too. Just a few quick words before you go into information
overload.

First, anything you learn here should be checked with your doctors
before acting on it. Having said that, if your doctor's disagree, get
them to clearly explain why. The history you have mentioned doesn't
fill me with confidence as to your current ones. And get copies of ALL
your lab results. Even if you don't understand them, someone here
will.

Second, you will come to accept that there are going to be some pretty
dramatic changes in your diet. Some of the things you "love" - sugared
confections are obvious, but also pastas, potatoes, white breads,
rice, etc will become rare treats instead of daily food. If you want
to avoid complications later in your life you will have to make some
sacrifices now.

Believe me, in a few months you will not miss the pasta and bread when
you notice that strange person walking beside you reflected in the
shop window.

And that brings me to the next point. One of the quickest ways to gain
some control over the beast is to get down to a weight approriate to
your height and gender. Your doc was incorrect in implying that will
cure you, but it will certainly assist greatly in control. But do it
in parallel with your better BG control, not instead of.

Welcome again. Go to http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org and read
Jennifer again, then come back with lots of questions.

Cheers Alan, T2, Oz
dx May 2002, diet and exercise.
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
Arnie Macy - 26 Oct 2003 23:59 GMT
I've been surviving on pretzels and fresh fruit the past few days, instead
of my Weight Watchers brand desserts, when I've wanted a snack.  The doctor
I saw on Tuesday told me that these were okay. (So far, no problems that
cause me to cut back on salt, except that I had personally made this
decision recently because I had throat problems that were aggravated by the
feel of salt.) And one of my favorite things to eat is PLAIN pasta (no
sauce, no butter, no cheese). I'm starting to feel discouraged already -
first, I'm told no sweets, and now I'm being forewarned that I won't be able
to eat some other stuff that sounded healthy to me. I'm a fussy eater to
begin with, and now so many of the things that I do eat that I didn't think
were that bad may be off-limits to me.

"Shake out of ... system" is my phrase, not his. I just couldn't think of
his exact words, so I just put in some words of my own to describe what I
thought was his intent. But I did get the impression from what he said that
this was something that COULD go away with the proper care, and if I watched
myself after it went away, it wouldn't come back again.  I'm really
depressed now thinking that there's no way I can ever be a non-diabetic
again. Since Tuesday, I had had the hope that  there was a chance.
___________________________________________________________________

Simply put, carbs are sugar.  Whether they are simple or complex (like
pasta, rice, potatoes, milk, etc.) they *all* have an impact on our Blood
Glucose (BG) readings.  What I want you to know; however, is that you *can*
eat a certain amount of carbs and do quite well.  How many depends on you,
and frequent testing is the only way to find out for sure.  For example, you
said that you like pasta.  Well, there are several brands of low-carb pasta
out there.  I use one of them and can still enjoy a bit of pasta from time
to time without worrying about the effect on my BG.  Same thing for some
breads.  It's all a matter of taking the time to determine what effect each
type of food has on your BG and making the proper adjustments.  Life is
*not* over as you know it, it just changed a bit.  I eat as well or better
than I ever did when I was a non-diabetic.  As a matter of fact, in a lot
ways, becoming diabetic forced me to eat better.

As far as "shaking" diabetes goes, I think you already know the answer to
that one.  But, and this is very important.  The complications associated
with diabetes *can* be shaken (or at the very least, reduced dramatically)
by keeping your BG in a non-diabetic range (70-120).  Things like kidney
disease, neuropathy, blindness, and amputations do *not* have to be part of
your future.  It is completely up to you.  As others might have said, *you*
are in charge of this disease and can have the greatest impact on future
complications (or the lack thereof).

You have come to the right place if you are looking for solid advice from
those that have been there, done that.  We are all here to help and will be
happy to share what has worked for us.  Keep in touch, and most
importantly -- keep asking questions.

Arnie -
Julie Bove - 27 Oct 2003 02:08 GMT
<snip>

> I guess I'll learn all of these things. As long as I'm not taking
> insulin, I DON'T EXPECT TO HAVE TO DO ANYTHING THAT INVOLVES A NEEDLE
> GOING INTO MY BODY ON A DAILY BASIS! Please reassure me that I won't
> have to do this while still following the proper treatment regimen!

Alas, nobody here can tell  you that.  Some people with type 2 must use
insulin.  I am not one of those.  At least not yet.  But you WILL have to
test your BG several times a day.  You will use a lancet.  It's not a
needle, per se, but it is sharp.  And in the beginning, I was very, very
afraid to use it.  I am probably about the most needle phobic person on the
face of this earth.  I could not envision myself ever being able to use a
lancet.  Not ever!  I do have pierced ears.  I passed out after having the
first one pierced.  Passed out cold.  They must have done the second while
while I was out.  *L*  Seriously!  That's how afraid of needles I am.

In the beginning, my husband tested my BG for me.  I simply could not bring
myself to do it.  But he was causing me an inordinate amount of pain.  It
was torture every time he stabbed me.  I figured if I was going to have to
go through that amount of pain, I wanted to at least be able to do it to
myself instead of having someone else cause it.  And you know what I found
out?  If you do it right, it doesn't hurt at all!  That's right!  You can't
even feel it!  I'd say about 99% of the time, I can't feel it at all.  But
then there's that one time when it does hurt, even when you think you did it
all right.  My husband was going out of his way to make sure that I felt
pain.  I heard him tell someone this.  So I was greatly relieved to be able
to do my own testing.

I do get pain sometimes when a lab tech does a finger stick.  I've found
that usually when the lab tech is also diabetic, they take more care not to
hurt you.  I also have to go in for a lot more lab work than I used to.
That can sometimes be painful.  But it's just a fact of life.

<snip>

> I've been surviving on pretzels and fresh fruit the past few days,
> instead of my Weight Watchers brand desserts, when I've wanted a snack.
> The doctor I saw on Tuesday told me that these were okay.

Again, this Dr. has no clue!!!  Fruit is loaded with sugar and loaded with
carbs.  Pretzels are loaded with carbs.  Keep eating this stuff and your BG
will be through the roof!  These things are probably no better for you than
the WW snacks.  Read the labels.  How many carbs are in those things?

>(So far, no  problems that cause me to cut back on salt, except that I had
personally
> made this decision recently because I had throat problems that were
> aggravated by the feel of salt.) And one of my favorite things to eat is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> things that I do eat that I didn't think were that bad may be off-limits
> to me.

Plain pasta is not healthy.  It is a refined food.  Try switching to whole
wheat pasta.  If you can't stand the taste of it, there is a readily
available brand that combines some whole wheat with regular pasta flour.
That is at least an improvement.  But if you eat plain pasta you are eating
almost all carbs!  That will shoot your BG through the roof too.  Fat delays
the absorbption of carbs.  So eat that pasta with a bit of olive oil or
cheese.  Much better for your BG.

<snip>

> "Shake out of ... system" is my phrase, not his. I just couldn't think
> of his exact words, so I just put in some words of my own to describe
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> non-diabetic again. Since Tuesday, I had had the hope that there was a
> chance.

Nope.  Never goes away.  Alas, many Drs. are still telling patients this
very thing.  I remember my brother telling me the same thing when he was
diagnosed.  I told him to find another Dr.  He didn't.  He's still seeing
the same Dr.  But he eventually wised up and realized that he had to make
some drastic dietary changes and he also had to start exercising.

<snip>

> About 5 years ago, when I went for my gynecological exam, I mentioned to
> the doctor I saw then that I had some diabetic symptoms. I know that
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> read my medical history, because when I showed her the scar from an old
> operation, she knew all about it.

You may well have been diabetic then, but fell through the cracks.  I've
learned to always get a copy of my lab results.  I've spotted anemia twice
when my Drs. said there was nothing wrong with me.  My former
Endocrinologist allowed my thryoid to be over-medicated.  All the while, I
kept going back to him, complaining of symptoms related to hyper thyroid.  I
was released from the ER, sick as can be and not being told that I had low
potassium.  So I know now that getting those lab results in your hand is
vital!

<snip>

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RL - 27 Oct 2003 03:36 GMT
>>I've been surviving on pretzels and fresh fruit the past few days,
>>instead of my Weight Watchers brand desserts, when I've wanted a snack.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> will be through the roof!  These things are probably no better for you than
> the WW snacks.  Read the labels.  How many carbs are in those things?

Maybe he wanted to wean me off of favorite foods gradually. After all,
this is a major change for me. On Wednesday, when I go to the other
doctor in the practice who first order the test, he may lower the boom
on everything else.

> Plain pasta is not healthy.  It is a refined food.  Try switching to whole
> wheat pasta.  If you can't stand the taste of it, there is a readily
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the absorbption of carbs.  So eat that pasta with a bit of olive oil or
> cheese.  Much better for your BG.

I'll look for the whole wheat pasta. But I don't eat cheese at all! I've
never liked it - I don't even eat pizza. I'll try the olive oil though.

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Julie Bove - 27 Oct 2003 04:06 GMT
> Maybe he wanted to wean me off of favorite foods gradually. After all,
> this is a major change for me. On Wednesday, when I go to the other
> doctor in the practice who first order the test, he may lower the boom
> on everything else.

That could be.  Or it could be that he simply doesn't know any better.  I've
found that most Drs. seem to know little about nutrition.  Have you ever
seen what a Dr. eats?  I've seen some, and it is appalling!

> I'll look for the whole wheat pasta. But I don't eat cheese at all! I've
> never liked it - I don't even eat pizza. I'll try the olive oil though.

Or you could find some sort of protein that you do like.  Some people like
chicken with pasta.  Personally, I hate chicken, but I live cheese.  Could
live without pizza though.  I don't really like it.

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BlkBear - 29 Oct 2003 05:11 GMT

>> One thing you'll need to know is your A1c.  It's a blood test to check the 3
>> mo. average BG (blood glucose) levels in your blood.  It's actually a little
>> more complicated than that but the average is the easiest way to explain it.

>I guess I'll learn all of these things. As long as I'm not taking
>insulin, I DON'T EXPECT TO HAVE TO DO ANYTHING THAT INVOLVES A NEEDLE
>GOING INTO MY BODY ON A DAILY BASIS! Please reassure me that I won't
>have to do this while still following the proper treatment regimen!

Actually, you will want to use whatever tools you need to use to get
your BG levels as low as possible, to keep yourself healthy.

>Some information about me - I am female, age 51, about 40-50 pounds
>overweight (a somewhat recent development). I caught a quick glimpse of
>the test results, and my triglycerides (sp?) were 700-something or
>800-something. My cholesterol was 285, but it has always been high -
>runs in my family. Also, diabetes runs in my family - possibly on both
>sides.

Well  looks like you have some home work to deal with. Losing weight
will help a lot with your numbers. Exercise will play a key role in your
BG control as well as weightloss.  That is if you are not limited in any
fashion that keeps you from doing any type of exercise.

>I'll do what I have to do to stay healthy.

That's a big 10-4!  Do what you know you need to do, to eat right,
exercise, and watch your BG levels.
Jenny - 26 Oct 2003 23:10 GMT
RL,

There is a wonderful book which will answer a lot of your questions about
diabetes.  It is Type II Diabetes: the First Year by Gretchen Becker. You
can order it from Amazon.  It's very easy to understand and should help you
get a grasp on what is going on.

Do read Jennifer's Advice to newbies. It could quite literally change your
life.

Unfortunately, by the time you're spouting symptoms like neuropathy, there
is very little chance that your diabetes will reverse even with significant
weight loss because it has probably been occurring for years and you've lost
most of the cells in your pancreas that produce insulin. Losing weight may
make it easier to control your blood sugar, but my own experience has been
that beyond making it possible for me to exercise more easily, losing weight
has not changed my blood sugar profile.

Also, quite a few people have found that taking a supplement, timed release
Alpha Linolic Acid (ALA), helps reverse their neuropathy.  Other people have
found that going on a low carb diet and staying on it for many many months
will do the same.

-- Jenny

Weight: 168.5/137
Diabetes Type II diagnosed 8/1998
Low Carb 9/1998 - 8/2001 and 11/10/02 - Now

http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean
How to calculate your need for protein * How much people really lose each
month *  Water Weight Gain & Loss * The "Two Gram Cure" for Hunger Cravings
* Characteristics of Successful Dieters * Indispensible Low Carb Treats *
Should You Count that Low Impact Carb? * Curing Ketobreath * Exercise
Starting from Zero *  NEW! Do Starch Blockers Work?

> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 105 lines]
> --
> Remove nospam wherever it appears in my email address to reply.
RL - 26 Oct 2003 23:42 GMT
> RL,
>
> There is a wonderful book which will answer a lot of your questions about
> diabetes.  It is Type II Diabetes: the First Year by Gretchen Becker. You
> can order it from Amazon.  It's very easy to understand and should help you
> get a grasp on what is going on.

Thanks for this information. I will look for it in my local bookstore. I
saw a book recently called "Diabetes for Dummies" - yes, part of that
series with the yellow covers. I don't care much for the other "Dummies"
books, but I wonder if this one is any good.

> Do read Jennifer's Advice to newbies. It could quite literally change your
> life.

I've got this up in a web browser window right now and have been
switching back and forth between it and this newsgroup.

> Unfortunately, by the time you're spouting symptoms like neuropathy, there
> is very little chance that your diabetes will reverse even with significant
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> found that going on a low carb diet and staying on it for many many months
> will do the same.

I'll mention this to my doctor. Incidentally, I can live with the
neuropathy - I seem to have a high pain threshhold, even with those two
sleepless nights I had recently. My relative by marriage who is not
diabetic has the neuropathy really bad - there had been some talk about
amputation - but if I just had neuropathy and didn't have diabetes, I'd
be satisfied. Diabetes, after all, has all of these other negative
connotations.

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Pete - 26 Oct 2003 23:01 GMT
>> RL,
>> There is a wonderful book which will answer a lot of your questions about
>> diabetes.  It is Type II Diabetes: the First Year by Gretchen Becker. You
>> can order it from Amazon.  It's very easy to understand and should help you
>> get a grasp on what is going on.

>Thanks for this information. I will look for it in my local bookstore. I
>saw a book recently called "Diabetes for Dummies" - yes, part of that
>series with the yellow covers. I don't care much for the other "Dummies"
>books, but I wonder if this one is any good.

There is an awfull lot of information available and sadly
not all of it can be described as 'suitable for you'. As
already mentioned elswhere by others, each of us is
different not only in how we respond to various
treatments/courses of action but in many other aspects as
well. The trick is to determine what is good for you. Do not
think that because something works fine for others that the
same will work for you. However, basic principles are pretty
much universal and once you grasp these then you should be
onto a winner.

>> Do read Jennifer's Advice to newbies. It could quite literally change your
>> life.

>I've got this up in a web browser window right now and have been
>switching back and forth between it and this newsgroup.

>> Unfortunately, by the time you're spouting symptoms like neuropathy, there
>> is very little chance that your diabetes will reverse even with significant
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> that beyond making it possible for me to exercise more easily, losing weight
>> has not changed my blood sugar profile.

>> Also, quite a few people have found that taking a supplement, timed release
>> Alpha Linolic Acid (ALA), helps reverse their neuropathy.  Other people have
>> found that going on a low carb diet and staying on it for many many months
>> will do the same.

>I'll mention this to my doctor. Incidentally, I can live with the
>neuropathy - I seem to have a high pain threshhold, even with those two
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>be satisfied. Diabetes, after all, has all of these other negative
>connotations.

Ah but you see that is not the way to look at it in my book.
Try thinking of it this way: without the knowledge that you
are diabetic, think what might be. Now you know, you have a
fighting chance to improve on what might have been the
future for you.

As many others here will testify, they are healthier now
than they once were and many look forward to a future that
might have been denied to them.

Take time to learn as much as you can. It's hard to start
with, there are so many changes to be made, confusing
contradictions and at times it will all seem too much. But
don't give up. As you learn and things become a bit clearer
you will discover that your effort will produce a tangible
and noticable result that will please you. Your new life
begins now.

I wish you well

Pete

Diagnosed 20/03/03 Type II D&E + Metformin + Gliclazide
+ Asprin 210lbs at Dx to 170 lbs 02/08/03 target 161.
t2_lurking - 26 Oct 2003 23:17 GMT
Salutations RL!
Just saying Hi!
I was just reading your replies and I wanted to say:
DON'T DESPAIR!
After you get your BG's under control you can start adding things back into
your menu that you may have thought you'd never eat again. When I was first
dxed I thought "bye-bye bread, waffles, fries, mashed potatoes" etc.
I had four pieces of bread today. Four! With cinnamon sugar!
Of course the bread was only 3 barbs per, and the cinnamon sugar was made
with Splenda, but one month ago I would have laughed at thought of even
sniffing a piece of bread.
Until you start testing you will have no idea what will "spike" you and what
won't.
There is a poster on a.s.d. here that eats mashed potatoes regularly.

The one thing  did immediately after my dx was to but the Gretchen Becker
book "The First Year Type 2 Diabetes: An Essential Guide for the Newly
Diagnosed". its quite good and has a real calming effect.
Have you checked out www.alt.support.diabetes.org , and also
www.mendosa.com.

I've already gone on more than I should, I'll say goodbye with this nice
piece of advice from another poster:
Dealing with diabetes involves three things: exercise, medication, and diet.
It
also involves knowledge, the ability to balance these three things, and the
willingness to do the work. It is a very dynamic disease, changing by the
hour,
and no doctor can be there to make adjustments on a test by test basis. You
have to know and you have to act on the information that comes from your
meter.
-- JTesar2140--

Signature

--
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geabbottATabbottandabbottDOTcom
Do not mail to t2_lurking (auto-delete)
===============================
The Joy that isn't shared,  I've heard,
dies young.
----  Anne Sexton  ----

> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 103 lines]
>
> I hope you'll put up with me.
RL - 26 Oct 2003 23:50 GMT
> Salutations RL!
> Just saying Hi!
> I was just reading your replies and I wanted to say:
> DON'T DESPAIR!

Thanks for this advice. I'll try not to despair, but some messages I've
been getting here today seem to imply that there's no hope for me.

> After you get your BG's under control you can start adding things back into
> your menu that you may have thought you'd never eat again. When I was first
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> won't.
> There is a poster on a.s.d. here that eats mashed potatoes regularly.

What's Splenda? I saw it in the title of some messages on at least one
of the newsgroups.

Bread? Uh-oh, last night we went out to a local deli, and since I
figured it wasn't a sweet (which is the only thing a doctor has told me
to avoid so far), I ate some rye bread and a bagel. Is this going to
hurt me in the long run?

> The one thing  did immediately after my dx was to but the Gretchen Becker
> book "The First Year Type 2 Diabetes: An Essential Guide for the Newly
> Diagnosed". its quite good and has a real calming effect.

Someone else also recommened this book, so I'll be sure to look for it.

> Have you checked out www.alt.support.diabetes.org , and also
> www.mendosa.com.

OK, I just brought www.mendosa.com up in a web browser window (and
already have the other one up in another window), and I see there's a
lot to study. I'll check them out.

> I've already gone on more than I should, I'll say goodbye with this nice
> piece of advice from another poster:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> have to know and you have to act on the information that comes from your
> meter.

I'm willing to exercise, take medication, and diet to the extent that
there are still things I can eat (I've never liked leafy vegetables, for
instance). I am not entirely willing to visit a doctor more often than
every six months, at least after the initial period of this diagnoses. I
am also not willing to do any home testing that involves putting a
needle in me - heaven forbid I ever need insulin!

But if I'm showing a bad attitude now, I hope that I can eventually face
what I have to do after taking some time to get used to this.

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Pete - 26 Oct 2003 23:35 GMT
>> Salutations RL!
>> Just saying Hi!
>> I was just reading your replies and I wanted to say:
>> DON'T DESPAIR!

>Thanks for this advice. I'll try not to despair, but some messages I've
>been getting here today seem to imply that there's no hope for me.

Absolute rubbish!!!! There is a great chance of a much
better future for you than there would have been and a
better future than many who are in a similar sittuation to
you. You have an edge - if you choose to use it. Knowledge.
Gain an understanding and listen to the messages your body
sends. Learn how to interpret them and respond.

>> After you get your BG's under control you can start adding things back into
>> your menu that you may have thought you'd never eat again. When I was first
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> won't.
>> There is a poster on a.s.d. here that eats mashed potatoes regularly.

>What's Splenda? I saw it in the title of some messages on at least one
>of the newsgroups.

It's a sweetener substitute for Sugar. Some like to use it.
Some people do not. Its a matter of personal choice. I, for
example, prefer no artificial sweeteners of any kind. I
cannot tollerate sugar either.

>Bread? Uh-oh, last night we went out to a local deli, and since I
>figured it wasn't a sweet (which is the only thing a doctor has told me
>to avoid so far), I ate some rye bread and a bagel. Is this going to
>hurt me in the long run?

Rye bread is not too bad for some. I can eat it without
spiking and the carb content is low. But i also think it is
a bit of an acquired taste.

>> The one thing  did immediately after my dx was to but the Gretchen Becker
>> book "The First Year Type 2 Diabetes: An Essential Guide for the Newly
>> Diagnosed". its quite good and has a real calming effect.

>Someone else also recommened this book, so I'll be sure to look for it.

>> Have you checked out www.alt.support.diabetes.org , and also
>> www.mendosa.com.

>OK, I just brought www.mendosa.com up in a web browser window (and
>already have the other one up in another window), and I see there's a
>lot to study. I'll check them out.

>> I've already gone on more than I should, I'll say goodbye with this nice
>> piece of advice from another poster:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> have to know and you have to act on the information that comes from your
>> meter.

>I'm willing to exercise, take medication, and diet to the extent that
>there are still things I can eat (I've never liked leafy vegetables, for
>instance). I am not entirely willing to visit a doctor more often than
>every six months, at least after the initial period of this diagnoses. I
>am also not willing to do any home testing that involves putting a
>needle in me - heaven forbid I ever need insulin!

I think you ought to reconsider your views on testing. I
thought exactly the same as you do now. In my case I am a
fainter. I have been trained to take blood in the past ans
was very good at it [even if I say so myself] but if i see
the nurse take MY blood........then I am a gonner. Sad init?
I have to look away when she does it. But i am better now.

How many times have you stuck yourself with a darning or
sewing needle???? Or how many times have you pricked
yourself inadvertantly on something sharp?? Load I'll bet.
So testin is a lot less painfull simpler and no problem at
all. Honest.

You NEED to test. Otherwise you will have no idea of what
foods you can tollerate or the quantity you can have without
having an adverse reaction. Know this.....without this
knowledge you will be totally dependant upon your visits to
the docs for your A1c's and the time to gain control will be
extended for such a period............well you really do not
want to go that route.

Do you swim? I will assume you do....think of diabetes as
the water in the pool and control of your diabetes is the
breath you take wilst in the water. Well you might decide to
hold your breath and swim underwater for as long as possible
but eventually you will have to come up for air or drown.
Doing this for a long period will weaken you upset the
balance of gasses in your blood and eventually you will
drown. However, if you breathe at regular intervals and
control your exertion, then you can swim for much longer
much much longer. Eventually inevitably you will physically
weaken as we all do and then drown.

So what do you want to do? Swim longer or take a chance
holding your breath?

Avoiding the issues because of your current dislikes is a
bit like an ostrich sticking its head in the sand. It cannot
see what it fears but nevertheless its butt is bare to the
world. <G>

>But if I'm showing a bad attitude now, I hope that I can eventually face
>what I have to do after taking some time to get used to this.

Hey.....you will. When the initial enormity of it has sunk
in, you will come to accept it. Then you make the choice to
do the best you can. Do you have someone who loves you or
depends upon you? I imagine so. I believe I read where you
said there were other diabetics in your family circle? I
think you could probably be an inspiration to them if you
wanted to be.

If you think I have been a bit hard on you, well perhaps but
i think it might be necessary.

Don't fret, just take your time to learn.

Pete

Diagnosed 20/03/03 Type II D&E + Metformin + Gliclazide
+ Asprin 210lbs at Dx to 170 lbs 02/08/03 target 161.
Fester - 27 Oct 2003 00:02 GMT
> > Salutations RL!
> > Just saying Hi!
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> --
> Remove nospam wherever it appears in my email address to reply.

Home testing doesn't involve a needle at all, it does involve pricking your
finger but it doesn't hurt. It's an enclosed device so you don't even have
to watch it. You do need to get into testing at some point. What some people
myself included will forget to mention is that it took some of us literally
years to get to the point we're at now. Had i been as good at taking the
advice of others ten years ago i might have been a better diabetic. In short
take your time, get comfy with what you need to do, read lots and apply that
knowledge as best you can. We'd all like to be able to adjust to new things
in a matter of days but as you're no doubt aware life just isn't like that.

As for attitude, i don't see anything bad there, just a very normal one:) I
guess the main things is just not to worry too much. Diagnosis was hardest
for me, everything after that has been comparably easy once i got the
initial shock out of the  way with. Facing up to having a problem is more
than halfway to sorting it out. Having access to groups like this will be a
valuable source of information for you to do battle with your doctor and
dietcian. Knowledge is power, i just wish i had  this when i was diagnosed.

Patrick
RL - 27 Oct 2003 00:12 GMT
> Home testing doesn't involve a needle at all, it does involve pricking your
> finger but it doesn't hurt. It's an enclosed device so you don't even have
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> knowledge as best you can. We'd all like to be able to adjust to new things
> in a matter of days but as you're no doubt aware life just isn't like that.

Pricking a finger is just as bad as a needle. In fact, it hurts me more
to have a finger pricked than to have blood taken from the inside of the
crook of my elbow. So, it looks like I have a dim future ahead of me.

> As for attitude, i don't see anything bad there, just a very normal one:) I
> guess the main things is just not to worry too much. Diagnosis was hardest
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> valuable source of information for you to do battle with your doctor and
> dietcian. Knowledge is power, i just wish i had  this when i was diagnosed.

Diagnosis was not as hard as one may think for me because I had
suspected I had this for awhile, and it finally got noticed, and I'm
finally getting into treatment. Now, if I had been diagnosed a few years
ago, when I had a job with a flat fee co-payment health insurance, no
questions asked sick time, and excused time off to go to the doctor,
instead of my current job with 20% sky's the limit co-payments,
tightly-watched sick time even when there's a documented condition, and
the need to use vacation time to go to the doctor, I could have had a
better chance at controlling things. (Ironically, I have the health
insurance now that others probably wish they had - total freedom of
choice with no referrals needed for specialists.) I know I'm going to be
skimping on doctors office visits and insisting on generic drugs because
of this situation. But I guess I'm lucky to have health insurance in the
first place and a pretty decent job. (Coincidentally, I also suspected I
have asthma for several years, and only recently it's been confirmed
that I have this, too. Again, a relief to finally know, but this gives
me two bad problems at once.)

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Fester - 27 Oct 2003 00:21 GMT
> > Home testing doesn't involve a needle at all, it does involve pricking your
> > finger but it doesn't hurt. It's an enclosed device so you don't even have
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> to have a finger pricked than to have blood taken from the inside of the
> crook of my elbow. So, it looks like I have a dim future ahead of me.

Sounds corny, but if you expect it to hurt then it usually will. If you can
get the pain thing out of the back of your mind then you might find it
easier to do. Honestly it does make me jump sometimes, but the information
that i get from this is invaluable. Pain goes with experience and keeping
new ends in your finger prick device. Also learning what parts of you are
less painful to use as test sites is good to learn.  Your future would have
been dim had you not been diagnosed, as it stands your future is actually
looking a whole lot brighter.

You now have a unique in depth relationship with what you eat. Enjoy control
that some people would only dream of. Those poor souls who are not diabetic
have NO idea what they are doing to their bodies. We're all rather lucky in
that area, well at least in my book anyway:)

Patrick

> > As for attitude, i don't see anything bad there, just a very normal one:) I
> > guess the main things is just not to worry too much. Diagnosis was hardest
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> --
> Remove nospam wherever it appears in my email address to reply.
Alan - 27 Oct 2003 01:40 GMT
>Pricking a finger is just as bad as a needle. In fact, it hurts me more
>to have a finger pricked than to have blood taken from the inside of the
>crook of my elbow. So, it looks like I have a dim future ahead of me.

Hullo again.

Elsewhere you also said:
"Thanks for this advice. I'll try not to despair, but some messages
I've been getting here today seem to imply that there's no hope for
me."

I've got to be honest here; I've gone back and read through every
reply you got. I couldn't see any that said that even remotely. In
fact, all I could find were the opposite - messages of advice and
hope.

Now, sit back, take a deep breath, and relax. Obviously, you have had
a shock; you may have been expecting it, but it's still a shock.
You are frightened of what you've got and are even more frightened of
how you may have to treat it. Believe me, we understand that. We've
all been there.

Most of it is fear of the unknown. To extend Pete's swimming analogy,
you've stuck your toe in the water and you're scared to jump in
because it's too cold. The difference here is that you'll drown if you
don't, not if you do. Diabetes turns things upside-down a little:-)

You'll find, once you do, that testing is a pin-prick, and after a
week you'll wonder why you worried. If you must be frightened of
something, be frightened of what will happen if you do not learn to
improve your control. That's what frightens me.

Cheers Alan, T2, Oz
dx May 2002, diet and exercise.
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
Julie Bove - 27 Oct 2003 02:34 GMT
<snip>

> Pricking a finger is just as bad as a needle. In fact, it hurts me more
> to have a finger pricked than to have blood taken from the inside of the
> crook of my elbow. So, it looks like I have a dim future ahead of me.

Believe me, it doesn't hurt, most of the time.  I have accidentally pricked
myself with a sewing needle.  Now THAT hurts!  You will be using a spring
loaded device called a lancing device.  In the lancing device is a little
thing called a lancet.  The company who sells these to you will tell you to
change your lancet with each use.  Don't do that!  That's assuming you are
only testing yourself.  You MUST change the lancet if you are lancing anyone
other than yourself. and then put a fresh one in when you do yourself again.
I find I can use the same lancet for several weeks at a time.  Not only does
this save money but it is far less painful.  I used to change my lancet
every day.  Now I don't.  Now I usually can't feel it at all.  And I mean
that sincerely.

> Diagnosis was not as hard as one may think for me because I had
> suspected I had this for awhile, and it finally got noticed, and I'm
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> that I have this, too. Again, a relief to finally know, but this gives
> me two bad problems at once.)

You are lucky to have insurance.  Imagine what would have happened if you
had no insurance at all and were then diagnosed!  You probably would never
be able to get insurance.  :(

Signature

Type 2
http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

Jim Kent - 28 Oct 2003 04:04 GMT
>Pricking a finger is just as bad as a needle. In fact, it hurts me more
>to have a finger pricked than to have blood taken from the inside of the
>crook of my elbow. So, it looks like I have a dim future ahead of me.

There are "alternate site" (arms, legs, stomach...) certified testing
devices.  The Mendoza site you've already mentioned has quite a bit of
information on meters.  There's no reason to obsess about sticking
your finger, because you don't have to do it.  Period.  I chose a
FreeStyle meter and am very pleased with it.  I've tested it against
lab results and it's been within 1 point every time.  Lancing your arm
or leg is completely painless, plus, the FreeStyle uses the smallest
blood sample of any consumer meter.  A drop the size of a pinhead is
all you need.  

I'm also a recently-diagnosed T2.  Buying and using the meter gave me
the incentive and quantitative feedback I needed to get things under
control.  Through low-carb eating, and moderate exercise, I now have
non-diabetic BG levels (last A1C was below 4), and lipid levels all in
double digits.  I can cheat a bit now and then, but always measure the
results and note how well I did or did not tolerate whatever it was I
ate.

Most important points IMO?  1) Get the lard off.  No way to sugar coat
it.  2) Get real with your eating.  Use the nutrition labels, and
don't delude yourself with wishful thinking that junk like pretzels is
good for you.  Succinctly: carbs are like poison.  3) Take charge of
your condition NOW.  Resolve TODAY that you're going to make the
behavioral changes that need to be made, and then DO IT.
RK - 28 Oct 2003 20:25 GMT
alternate testing sites are not usually accurate and are
discuraged.

i was even told by Lifescan makers of Ultra not to use
anyplace other then my fingertip, if I wanted a true reading.
something about the capularies.

besides, it doesn't hurt, if you have the lancet set correctly.

rk

> >Pricking a finger is just as bad as a needle. In fact, it hurts me more
> >to have a finger pricked than to have blood taken from the inside of the
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> your condition NOW.  Resolve TODAY that you're going to make the
> behavioral changes that need to be made, and then DO IT.
Fred - 28 Oct 2003 22:51 GMT
alternate testing sites are not usually accurate and are
discuraged.

i was even told by Lifescan makers of Ultra not to use
anyplace other then my fingertip, if I wanted a true reading.
something about the capularies.

besides, it doesn't hurt, if you have the lancet set correctly.

rk

> On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 23:12:01 GMT, RL
> <nospamrslitman@earthlinknospam.net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> your condition NOW.  Resolve TODAY that you're going to make the
> behavioral changes that need to be made, and then DO IT.

I test on my shoulders, slap em first to get the blood up, if it's pink
it'll bleed, and I always get more than enough to test with my freestyle.
The fingers are fine if you like pain, but I figure the blood there came
through my shoulder anyhow so why not test where there is no pain even if I
occasionally forget to slap it and have to poke 3 times.
JL
kaci - 31 Oct 2003 02:51 GMT
> alternate testing sites are not usually accurate and are
> discuraged.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> besides, it doesn't hurt, if you have the lancet set correctly.

Do you suppose there's much variation in readings using the fatty part
of the palm instead of the finger? When you test several times a day,
you quickly run out of un-sore fingers.
kaci
Pete - 30 Oct 2003 19:49 GMT
>> alternate testing sites are not usually accurate and are
>> discuraged.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>you quickly run out of un-sore fingers.
>kaci

FWIW I always test my right hand always use fingers except
forefinger and prefer my index finger. It seems to have a
weakness [probably due to continual stabbing] and getting a
drop of blood the right amount imediately is no problem.

Pete

Diagnosed 20/03/03 Type II D&E + Metformin + Gliclazide
+ Asprin 210lbs at Dx to target 174lbs achieved.
To mail: aspen3 at freeuk.com
Pin-prick Steve - 31 Oct 2003 03:07 GMT
I often use the side of my finger(s), near the tip.  My Accu-Chek docs say the same about
alternate sites, although the sales pitch says you can use it in alternate areas.  Kind of a
contradiction...

Signature

Steve
Type II since September 30, 2003
Amaryl, Metformin, & Choke Chain
"Diabetes Doesn't Have To Be Scary Stuff"
"Bipolars Are Real Swingers!"
"Ham Radio Doesn't Oink...  (KA4TMB)

> > alternate testing sites are not usually accurate and are
> > discuraged.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> you quickly run out of un-sore fingers.
> kaci
Julie Bove - 27 Oct 2003 02:28 GMT
<snip>

> > There is a poster on a.s.d. here that eats mashed potatoes regularly.

That would be me!

> What's Splenda? I saw it in the title of some messages on at least one
> of the newsgroups.

It's a sugar free sweetener.  No calories or carbs in one serving.  Eat a
lot of it at once though, and you'll have to factor those things in.  The
sweetener itself is very lightweight and concentrated, so it is put in a
powdery base to make it more managable.  The base they put it in contains a
small amount of carbs.  Diet Rite sodas contain Splenda.

> Bread? Uh-oh, last night we went out to a local deli, and since I
> figured it wasn't a sweet (which is the only thing a doctor has told me
> to avoid so far), I ate some rye bread and a bagel. Is this going to
> hurt me in the long run?

That's probably more carbs than you can safely handle at one time.  And for
some reason, many of us find that we can't do bagels at all.  Must be
something in the way they are processed.  They tend to spike like you
wouldn't believe!  I used to eat rye bread, toasted for breakfast, but I can
no longer do that.  Too many carbs for me now.  Alas, the longer I have
this, the less carbs I can eat.  Especially for breakfast.  One thing I
failed to mention before is that the body is the most insulin resisitant
first thing in the morning.  Many of us find that we can eat less carbs then
that we can later in the day.  Now, I can only eat small slices of whole
grain bread in the morning, or certain types of "light" bread with approx. 9
g of carb per slice.

<snip>

> OK, I just brought www.mendosa.com up in a web browser window (and
> already have the other one up in another window), and I see there's a
> lot to study. I'll check them out.

The Glycemic Index is a help to some people.  But keep in mind that as soon
as you start combining foods, those numbers change.  I have experiemented
with the GI, and havve found it to be of no use to me.  Many of the foods
that are the worst on the list are the foods that work best for me.  But
then, I've always been kind of weird!  *L*

<snip>
> I'm willing to exercise, take medication, and diet to the extent that
> there are still things I can eat (I've never liked leafy vegetables, for
> instance). I am not entirely willing to visit a doctor more often than
> every six months, at least after the initial period of this diagnoses. I
> am also not willing to do any home testing that involves putting a
> needle in me - heaven forbid I ever need insulin!

You will probably have to go to the Dr. more frequently than that in the
beginning.  I been type 2 for over 4 years now and had GD prior to that.
The Endocrinologist I see now, only needs to see me every 6 months.
Everything is stable now.  In the beginning, I was going to the Dr. every 3
weeks.  You may well need to do this until you get your meds under control.
It can take a while to get those right.  After that, I was returning to the
Dr. every 2-3 months.  You may need to do this for a while too until things
get under control.  And you *will* have to test yourself at home.  That
involves making a drop of blood.  There is no other way to test.

I know how you feel about insulin.  I felt the same way when I was first
diagnosed.  But if you've even spent a period of a few weeks (or longer)
with BG raging out of control, you probably won't feel the same way!  You've
grown accustomed to your Neuropathy now.  And all of those other symptoms.
But get your BG under control and you'll be amazed at how good and pain free
you really feel.  Then you'll certainly notice it when (if) your BG goes
high.  That Neuropathy won't seem so minor.  The pain will likely be
unbearable.  You'll probably be willing to do anything to make it go away.
Including using insulin!

> But if I'm showing a bad attitude now, I hope that I can eventually face
> what I have to do after taking some time to get used to this.

Everyone shows a bad attitude when they are first diagnosed.  Nobody wants
this disease.  We all go through the denial stage where we hope somebody was
wrong somewhere and we really don't  have diabetes.  Alas, some people stay
in this stage for so long that complications set in.  Then there are others
who allow themselves to wallow in pity for a few days, then decide to get
things under control.

And another thing.  High BG can make you emotionally unstable.  Expect to
feel unwell, weird, or cranky as your BG comes down.  Your eyesight may
blur.  You may feel really hungry or not hungry at all.  You may feel
clumsy, or dizzy.  Your BG will be fluctuating wildly as you adjust to your
meds and a new way of eating.  This is all very normal.  Unsettling, but
normal.  I remember watching this with a co-worker following her diagnosis.
The slightest little thing would set her off.  It wasn't until I went
through it myself that I understood what she was going through.

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Type 2
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RL - 27 Oct 2003 03:38 GMT
> And another thing.  High BG can make you emotionally unstable.  Expect to
> feel unwell, weird, or cranky as your BG comes down.  Your eyesight may
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The slightest little thing would set her off.  It wasn't until I went
> through it myself that I understood what she was going through.

Thanks for warning me. I'll have to save this message so that I can show
it to everyone I know if (when) it happens to me.

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Hi_Therre - 26 Oct 2003 23:27 GMT
>Some information about me - I am female, age 51, about 40-50 pounds
>overweight (a somewhat recent development). I caught a quick glimpse of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>The doctor I saw last Tuesday told me that if I lost 25 pounds, I could
>very well shake the diabetes out of my system. This is a goal I've had

Shake diabetes????  Pure Hooey.  Once a diabetic, always a diabetic.
Once you lose the excess weight, your insulin resistance may reduce
also.  Then you MAY be able to eat a greater variety of foods.  But,
you are still diabetic

You forgot to mention the biggest item - Where is your meter?  What is
your testig schedule?  Since diabetes runs in your family, I assume
you already know the importance of testing and good BG control.

_____________________________________________
http://www.tcainternet.com/retired/index.html

RL - 26 Oct 2003 23:35 GMT
>>Some information about me - I am female, age 51, about 40-50 pounds
>>overweight (a somewhat recent development). I caught a quick glimpse of
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> your testig schedule?  Since diabetes runs in your family, I assume
> you already know the importance of testing and good BG control.

I don't know anything about this stuff. I never lived in the same
household with anyone who had diabetes at the time they had it. And I
guess they chose not to share this information with me. So someone else
will have to fill me in on this. Remember, I haven't been through
diabetes education yet. (Hope it doesn't involve needles.)

The doctor had given me hope that by losing the weight, I would be okay.
Also, the father of a friend of mine was diagnosed with diabetes some
time back and apparently doesn't have it any more.

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Colleen - 27 Oct 2003 01:24 GMT
> >>Some information about me - I am female, age 51, about 40-50 pounds
> >>overweight (a somewhat recent development). I caught a quick glimpse of
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Also, the father of a friend of mine was diagnosed with diabetes some
> time back and apparently doesn't have it any more.

RL,
Diabetes is incurable.  Period.  No getting around it.  Bad news, I know,
but it's fact.  The good news is it is CONTROLABLE!  With diet, exercise,
the right meds, and frequent testing, you can have excellent control.  When
you have excellent control, your test will be in the same number range as a
non-diabetic.  The problem is if you stop the diet, exercise, right meds and
frequent testing your test will go back into the diabetic range.
My recommedation would be to allow yourself a little time to learn about
what exactly diabetes is and how important it is to keep it in control.  My
former mother-in-law had serious T2 diabetes.  She died of a massive stroke
at 62.  My boyfriend's father was seriously T2 diabetic.  His father had a
leg amputated in his fifties (neuropathy gone bad) and died of a massive
heart attack at 61.  Neither of them did nothing to control their illness.
Granted, the knowledge then wasn't as great.  But think of it.  Now, with up
to date knowledge, the fate of these two people I mentioned can be avoided.
I am seriously T2 diabetic.  I mantain excellent control.  I had my
quarterly doctor's appointment Fri.  I am doing great.  No symptoms of side
effects, excellent blood pressure, cholesterol, triglycerides.  I eat well
but healthy, watch my weight, exercise, take effective meds, and test
frequently.  I don't want to be dead at 62.  I'm 51 now.  That wouldn't give
me too much time, would it?  Doing this has probably added another 20 years
to my life.  Potatoes, rice, bread, pasta, sweets are just not worth that
twenty years.

Take it easy tonight.  Be kind to yourself.  Reach out to us when you need
us.  There's lotsa helping hands and keyboards here.
c
RL - 27 Oct 2003 03:19 GMT
> RL,
> Diabetes is incurable.  Period.  No getting around it.  Bad news, I know,
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> to my life.  Potatoes, rice, bread, pasta, sweets are just not worth that
> twenty years.

I know of people like the ones you describe, including well-known ones
such as Waylon Jennings and Ron Santo (retired baseball player). They
suffered amputations (Jennings and Santo, plus the threat of it for the
relative who suffers from neuropathy but not diabetes), blindness (an
uncle who was my mother's brother - I told you it ran in the family),
kidney failure (husband of an ex-co-worker who herself recently died of
cancer), early death (Jennings, my uncle, my ex-co-worker's husband).
That is why I am so scared, and their stories will almost certainly
motivate me into following a careful program.

> Take it easy tonight.  Be kind to yourself.  Reach out to us when you need
> us.  There's lotsa helping hands and keyboards here.

Thanks for all of the advice and support you've given me so far.

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Colleen - 27 Oct 2003 13:58 GMT
Like I said, we're all here to coach you through this.  The rest is up to
you.  Keep us posted, literally.
c

> > RL,
> > Diabetes is incurable.  Period.  No getting around it.  Bad news, I know,
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> Thanks for all of the advice and support you've given me so far.
Arnie Macy - 27 Oct 2003 02:01 GMT
I don't know anything about this stuff. I never lived in the same household
with anyone who had diabetes at the time they had it. And I guess they chose
not to share this information with me. So someone else will have to fill me
in on this. Remember, I haven't been through diabetes education yet. (Hope
it doesn't involve needles.)

The doctor had given me hope that by losing the weight, I would be okay.
Also, the father of a friend of mine was diagnosed with diabetes some time
back and apparently doesn't have it any more.
_____________________________________________________________

RL,

<sigh> It is time for you to realize that frequent testing of your blood
sugar (BG) will save your life and help you avoid those nasty complications
you are so afraid of.  And, Yes, this does involve a pin prick of the
finger, and *Yes* it must be done, and Yes, it does get easier after you
have done it for a while.  Do I sound mean? (maybe) But I would much rather
give it to you straight, than tell you a story about how, with a little
weight loss, all this will go away -- it won't.  What *will* go away is the
chance for complications down the road if you decide to take control *now*.
It is just that simple.  Follow the advice from this group, and you will
start to feel better, and be better very quickly.

Here is what you *need* to do *right* now.  If you don't have a Blood
Glucose meter, get one.  Start testing in the manner that Jennifer
recommends.  Stick with it until you have figured out how many carbs you can
have, and when.  Then you can cut back the testing a bit.  Testing is
*vitally* important to a newly diagnosed diabetic.  It can literally save
your life.

Next, keep writing back to the group and let us know how you are doing.
That is very important.  It is your lifeline for help when you get depressed
and need a word or two of encouragement (or even some straight talk) --
Again, we are all here to help each other.  Don't let your fear of needles
or your fear of complications stop you from taking control of this disease.
You have taken the first step, for goodness sake; don't stop now.

Arnie -
Hi_Therre - 27 Oct 2003 14:27 GMT
>I don't know anything about this stuff. I never lived in the same

Sorry, I just assumed.  Run, don't walk and get a meter.  As a
minimum, test for Fasting.  Better yet, I'm not very good at giving
advice, look for a gal named Jennifer.  She has it nailed down to a
science.  Look for her posting.  For heavens sake, get a meter and
test.

See Sig for a Free BG recording and graphing software I author and
distribute.  It is very easy to use and contains a lot of capability
for a newbie.

>household with anyone who had diabetes at the time they had it. And I
>guess they chose not to share this information with me. So someone else
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Also, the father of a friend of mine was diagnosed with diabetes some
>time back and apparently doesn't have it any more.

Do I have this correct - The doctor says all you have to do is drop
some weight, and your diabetes will disappear?  And you know someone
who somehow got rid of his diabetes?  You may be better off finding a
new medical team.  You cannot wish away this damned disease.  I wish
that every morning, and it is still here.

_____________________________________________
http://www.tcainternet.com/retired/index.html

Shadow Spirit - 27 Oct 2003 00:50 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I went to a book and looked up peripheral neuropathy, and sounded a
> whole lot like what I had been experiencing.

Welcome to the group i was dx'd last january type 2 diabetic.
however i changed my life around and feel so much better today
than i did before dx'd.  its not the end of your life but the begining of
a healthier one.

> My symptoms - since mid-2001, I have been feeling something like a lump
> or knot on the bottom of one foot. I had an MRI on - can't forget the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> exception of tight shoes. Well, this is something I avoid anyway - my
> shoes are anything but tight.

lol yep before i called my doc i did some checking and thought
o no it looks like im diabetic - and i was er am.

> I was going to the doctor for a physical in mid-Sept. anyway, so I
> mentioned this. He wrote me a prescription to go to a local lab to have
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> This one was in the $12-$13 dollar range, and I guess I'll get 80% of it
> back in a few weeks.

all i take now is Metformin 1000 x 1 a day - i lost 65lbs and feel
fantastic.

> 2. Amitriptyline HCL 25 mg once a day at bedtime for the foot problem. I
> took this years ago for something else. I've been pretty drowsy since
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> thinking of buying lists "sugar" near the END of the list of
> ingredients, does this make it a no-no?

No sweets?  i can eat sweets but not like i used to - just maybe once a week
:).  sure there are some people
who can only tolerate only a small amount of carbs and others who can
tolerate more.
i have been eating 200 carbs daily easily.i went to a dietitian and got a
diet that seems to be working fantastic.
5 times a day i eat about 40 carbs  - i am now 265lbs down from 330 lbs.  if
i am good most of the time
i can eat what ever i want at parties but that is me i am not saying you
can.  what i will say is if you go to a dietitian
and get a diet - follow it and exercise you just might feel as good as i do
today.
i myself can not tell you what you can or can not eat - we are all
different.

> Some information about me - I am female, age 51, about 40-50 pounds
> overweight (a somewhat recent development). I caught a quick glimpse of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> The doctor I saw last Tuesday told me that if I lost 25 pounds, I could
> very well shake the diabetes out of my system.

i dont know about shaking diabetes ( does sound nice doesnt it )
but changing your life style to a more healthy one might get you off the
medications and
also besides testing your blood sugar you might never even think you have
diabetes.
because i have changed my life around so much for the better  i can handle
many more
carbs then i did when first dx'd.  you can too.

This is a goal I've had
> anyway, since it would allow me to reclaim a lot of my nice clothes that
> I can't wear now, plus I'd be able to go from Queen size panythose to a
> size B. It would probably take me 6-8 months to drop this weight, but I
> am determined to do it.

hey why dnt you try a size b now and take some pic for us :)

> I have alternating thoughts. The first one is that this is indeed only a
> 6-8 month inconvenience, similar to one experienced by a woman I know
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> The second thought is that I am permanently damaged and doomed.

Damaged? doomed?  i for one am not damaged and the only thing i am doomed to
is a healthier life style.  you can not tell by my post but i am actually
doing one arm pushups
while i type this.  diabetes gave me the motivation to be healthier so far
that
is all it has done to me.

After
> all, I already have peripheral neuropathy, which apparently takes some
> time to develop and may be a sign that my diabetes is pretty far along.
> I have had tests in the past before, but none as extensive as the one I
> had this month. Three years ago, I tested normal. So, now I'm thinking -
> how long until foot amputations?

that depends on you.  go to a dietitian and have a diet worked out for YOU.\
start doing some exercise.  there are so many more joys out there than food.

>how long until I go blind?

a few days probably - na just kidding.  take care of your self and
you will be fine.

>how long

now your getting a lil personal dont you think?

> until my kidneys go out, and I need dialysys? how long until I need to
> take insulin? how long until I die?

you wont have to worry about that if you worry about the following.
how long until you lose the 25 pounds.  how long until you fit into those
pants you want to fit in.  how long until you only take one seat on the
buss.
how long until you look in the mirror and say "damn girl you got it going
on"
the answer to all these questions is in your amount of will power and
knowledge.
SEE A DIETITIAN - work out a diet for yourself follow it and you will be
fine in more ways then one.
here is a link to the American Diabetes Associations web site on healthy
living.
http://www.diabetes.org/health/default.jsp

> I hope you'll put up with me.

Knowledge and willpower are your best weapons.

Tom
Julie Bove - 27 Oct 2003 01:50 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I went to a book and looked up peripheral neuropathy, and sounded a
> whole lot like what I had been experiencing.

Get your BG down and the Neuropathy symptoms may go away.  You should also
ask your Dr. about taking Evening Primrose Oil.  It's the only thing that
helps me!  If you decide to use it, Costco is the cheapest source.  You can
buy from them online without having to be a member.

<snip>

> The doctor showed me my test results during the Tuesday visit. I have
> been given the following information and prescriptions:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> This one was in the $12-$13 dollar range, and I guess I'll get 80% of it
> back in a few weeks.

Metformin is the generic for Glucophage.

> 2. Amitriptyline HCL 25 mg once a day at bedtime for the foot problem. I
> took this years ago for something else. I've been pretty drowsy since
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> plans to go places this weekend, and I'm taking it easy. That extra hour
> due to the clock change definitely helped! (Only about $4 and some change.)

This may or may not work for you.  Low doses of anti-depressants is a
standard treatment for Neuropathy.  But all it did for me was cause terrible
side effects.

> 3. A phone number for a diabetes education program at the hospital with
> which these doctors are affiliated. I left a voice mail message there
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> request information on their program. I hope these hospitals have
> classes in the evening.

Most likely they are weekend classes.  I had one such class available to me,
but I didn't go because it was a 2 hour drive from where I lived and it
started at 8:00 a.m.  This one lasted from 8:00 to 5:00 (bring your own
lunch) both Sat. and Sun.

> 4. A recommendation that I make another appointment to see the doctor
> who originally ordered the tests within the following two weeks. I did
> this, and I'll be going on Wednesday of this week.

Good, but a better recommendation would be to see an Endocrinologist.

> 5. And the admonition - "no sweets!" Well, this is going to be tough.
> What does this mean exactly? Does this mean that I can NEVER have a
> Milky Way candy bar again? Does it mean that I can't sample a piece of
> the cake if I go to a wedding? And if a brand of salsa that I was
> thinking of buying lists "sugar" near the END of the list of
> ingredients, does this make it a no-no?

This means that your Dr. is not up to date and you should not rely on him or
her for any diabetes advice.  They no longer recommend that diabetics avoid
sweets.  However, the diet issue is somewhat complicated.  It is carbs that
raise our BG (blood glucose).  Yes, sweets are carbs.  But so are potatoes,
pasta, bread, corn, peas, dried beans, fruit, fruit juice, milk, the list
goes on and on.  All vegetables contain carbs, but some more than others.
That's why corn, peas, potatoes and dried beans are counted as carbs, but
green beans and lettuce are not.  Unless you eat a lot of them at once that
is, and then you'l have to count them as a carb.

For the time being, it would be a very good idea to avoid all sweets like
candy, cake, donuts, pie, fruit juice, regular soda, etc.  Once you get your
BG under control, you may be able to work in occasional treats.  If these
things are really important to you, then be sure to tell your dietician.
And you really should see a dietician in addition to the class(es) you are
taking.

As for the issue of "sugar", you can ignore it.  Look at the total amount of
carbs per serving.  If you are in the USA, take the total grams of carbs and
subtract out the fiber.  This is how many carbs you are eating.  If the food
has approx. 15 g of carb per serving, it is considered a high carb food.
These are things you must really watch out for.  You don't necessarily need
to avoid them, but you will have to limit your intake at any one time.  How
much you can safely eat at one time varies from person to person.

Foods like salsa and ketchup must also be limited.  A serving of ketchup is
2 T.  A serving of salsa is 1/4 cup.  If you choose to eat more than one
serving at a time, you must be aware of how many carbs you are eating and
factor that in to your eating plan.  Also beware of foods like gravy,
sauces, and salad dressings.  They might contain more carbs than you'd
think!  Ditto for anything labeled fat free or low fat.  These foods often
add sugar or other sweeteners to compensate for the lack of fat.  So they
might have more carbs than their full fat counter-parts.

And also beware of all foods labeled "diet", "dietetic", "diabetic",
"diabetic friendly", or "sugar free".  Some of these foods are perfectly
safe.  Like Diet Coke or sugar free Jell-O.  But some of these foods contain
carb laden sweeteners like fructose or honey.  Or they contain sugar
alcohols.  Sugar alcohols contain calories.  And in some people, they raise
BG.  Also, they can have a laxative effect.  Get into the habit of reading
all labels.  I've found sugar alcohols lurking in sugr free frozen pops, and
also one brand of sugar free gelatine.  In some cases, the sweetener used
adds no calories or carbs, but the food itself contains flour and/or, a
source of carbs.

> Some information about me - I am female, age 51, about 40-50 pounds
> overweight (a somewhat recent development). I caught a quick glimpse of
> the test results, and my triglycerides (sp?) were 700-something or
> 800-something. My cholesterol was 285, but it has always been high -
> runs in my family. Also, diabetes runs in my family - possibly on both
> sides.

The weight may have come on because of the diabetes.  The cholesterol
problems may well get better once you get your BG under control.  Diet and
exercise are two very important tools we have in the battle of diabetes.
Watch what you eat carefully and make sure you get enough exercise.

> The doctor I saw last Tuesday told me that if I lost 25 pounds, I could
> very well shake the diabetes out of my system. This is a goal I've had
> anyway, since it would allow me to reclaim a lot of my nice clothes that
> I can't wear now, plus I'd be able to go from Queen size panythose to a
> size B. It would probably take me 6-8 months to drop this weight, but I
> am determined to do it.

Yet another reason not to see this Dr.!  Diabetes never goes away, unless
perhaps if was brought about by a certain steroid.  You can, however control
it.  For now, don't concern yourself with weight loss.  Get your BG down!
The weight may or may not come off.  It can be very difficult to lose weight
with excess insulin floating around in your system.  Once the BG is down,
then work on the weight loss.

> I have alternating thoughts. The first one is that this is indeed only a
> 6-8 month inconvenience, similar to one experienced by a woman I know
> who had gestational diabetes when she was pregnant. And while I'd be in
> a situation in which it could come back, I would take better care of my
> body so it won't.

Well, this thought it wrong.  Diabetes is a lifetime thing.  I had GD.  I
thought like you did.  And guess what?  Now I have type 2!  I didn't listen
to my Drs.  I didn't watch what I ate.  Could be that had I done this, I
might have gone a bit longer before developing type 2.  Or perhaps I might
not have gotten it at all.

> The second thought is that I am permanently damaged and doomed. After
> all, I already have peripheral neuropathy, which apparently takes some
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> until my kidneys go out, and I need dialysys? how long until I need to
> take insulin? how long until I die?

These problems you mention are all exacerbated by high BG.  My Neuropathy is
what led to my diagnosis.  My Drs. all thought like you do.  They said I
couldn't possibly have Neuroapathy because it was something that only
happened to people who had diabetes for a while.  Now I know this is not
true at all!  But what IS true is that by keeping my BG under control, I
have little to no symptoms of Neuropathy.

Nobody knows who will get complications and who won't.  Some people do
everything that they should and still get complications.  Others don't do
anything right and manage to escape complications.  But one good thing is
that we now have meters.  We can test our BG and keep it in line as best we
can.  Years ago, they had no meters.  And speaking of meters, you haven't
mentioned yours.  Do you have one?  If not, get your Dr. to write you a
prescription ASAP!  Using it regularly is the only way you'll know how you
are doing.  You might be able to get a free one.  I did.  Meter companies
make their money on the strips, so they are often eager to give away meters
or at least sell them cheap.

Signature

Type 2
http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

RL - 27 Oct 2003 03:31 GMT
>>2. Amitriptyline HCL 25 mg once a day at bedtime for the foot problem. I
>>took this years ago for something else. I've been pretty drowsy since
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> standard treatment for Neuropathy.  But all it did for me was cause terrible
> side effects.

I've been feeling better today, so I hope the side effects are wearing
off. I want to try it for a few weeks at least. But my feet aren't
feeling better yet.

>>4. A recommendation that I make another appointment to see the doctor
>>who originally ordered the tests within the following two weeks. I did
>>this, and I'll be going on Wednesday of this week.
>
> Good, but a better recommendation would be to see an Endocrinologist.

I'll ask my doctor about this on Wednesday. Hope I can find one with
evening or Saturday hours because I want to save my vacation time at
work for real vacations, not for doctor office visits.

>>5. And the admonition - "no sweets!" Well, this is going to be tough.
>>What does this mean exactly? Does this mean that I can NEVER have a
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> green beans and lettuce are not.  Unless you eat a lot of them at once that
> is, and then you'l have to count them as a carb.

This is a practice partner of the doctor I'm going to be seeing, so
maybe I'll get better advice from the other one. I asked him about fruit
and pretzels, and he said they were okay. So, I've been eating them, as
I posted earlier. Now I am so upset that I may have made myself worse!
No wonder the cost of malpractice insurance is driving so many doctors away!

> For the time being, it would be a very good idea to avoid all sweets like
> candy, cake, donuts, pie, fruit juice, regular soda, etc.  Once you get your
> BG under control, you may be able to work in occasional treats.  If these
> things are really important to you, then be sure to tell your dietician.
> And you really should see a dietician in addition to the class(es) you are
> taking.

OK, I'll keep the dietician suggestion in mind.

> Foods like salsa and ketchup must also be limited.  A serving of ketchup is
> 2 T.  A serving of salsa is 1/4 cup.  If you choose to eat more than one
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> add sugar or other sweeteners to compensate for the lack of fat.  So they
> might have more carbs than their full fat counter-parts.

I actually don't eat much salsa and ketchup. But my Weight Watcher
leaders have recommended salsa on vegetables to make them taste better,
since salsa is mainly vegetables itself. At least according to them. So
that's why I was considering it when I was at the store the other day.

> And also beware of all foods labeled "diet", "dietetic", "diabetic",
> "diabetic friendly", or "sugar free".  Some of these foods are perfectly
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> adds no calories or carbs, but the food itself contains flour and/or, a
> source of carbs.

I was wondering about this myself. I have to confess to going to
Baskin-Robbins with a friend since posting my original message a few
hours, not intending to have anything because of my newly-diagnosed
condition, and seeing a "no sugar added" product. OK, I gave in and had
some, but this will be the last time until I get good advice.

>>Some information about me - I am female, age 51, about 40-50 pounds
>>overweight (a somewhat recent development). I caught a quick glimpse of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> exercise are two very important tools we have in the battle of diabetes.
> Watch what you eat carefully and make sure you get enough exercise.

No, the weight came on because I have been overeating a lot in the past
few years.

>>The doctor I saw last Tuesday told me that if I lost 25 pounds, I could
>>very well shake the diabetes out of my system. This is a goal I've had
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> with excess insulin floating around in your system.  Once the BG is down,
> then work on the weight loss.

He probably didn't tell me it would completely disappear. I just got
that impression, that's all.

> Years ago, they had no meters.  And speaking of meters, you haven't
> mentioned yours.  Do you have one?  If not, get your Dr. to write you a
> prescription ASAP!  Using it regularly is the only way you'll know how you
> are doing.  You might be able to get a free one.  I did.  Meter companies
> make their money on the strips, so they are often eager to give away meters
> or at least sell them cheap.

As I've pointed out, all I've had so far is a few minutes in a doctor's
office, with a follow-up scheduled for Wednesday, and no diabetes
education yet. The whole concept of meters is new to me. I never lived
in the same household with a diabetic (while the person was known to be
diabetic) before, even though it runs in my family.

Signature

Remove nospam wherever it appears in my email address to reply.

Julie Bove - 27 Oct 2003 04:04 GMT
> > This may or may not work for you.  Low doses of anti-depressants is a
> > standard treatment for Neuropathy.  But all it did for me was cause terrible
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> off. I want to try it for a few weeks at least. But my feet aren't
> feeling better yet.

That's what I meant.  My Dr. said it only works for about 10-12% of all
people.  What will work is to get your BG (blood glucose/blood sugar) down.

> >>4. A recommendation that I make another appointment to see the doctor
> >>who originally ordered the tests within the following two weeks. I did
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> evening or Saturday hours because I want to save my vacation time at
> work for real vacations, not for doctor office visits.

Lucikly, many Drs. are realizing that people have to work and are expanding
their hours.

> This is a practice partner of the doctor I'm going to be seeing, so
> maybe I'll get better advice from the other one. I asked him about fruit
> and pretzels, and he said they were okay. So, I've been eating them, as
> I posted earlier. Now I am so upset that I may have made myself worse!
> No wonder the cost of malpractice insurance is driving so many doctors away!

Eating the wrong food for a few days isn't going to make you worse.  You
didn't get diabetes overnight.  There's no telling how long you've had it.
But now that you do know, you can make the needed changes.  Don't beat
yourself up if you do something wrong.  It will take several weeks for you
to get the basic gist of the diet and even then, you won't know everything.
Then when you think you've got everything figured out, the manufacturers
will throw you for a loop by changing the ingredients of their products.
These days, they're putting high fructose corn syrup in things you wouldn't
think it would be in!

<snip>

> I actually don't eat much salsa and ketchup. But my Weight Watcher
> leaders have recommended salsa on vegetables to make them taste better,
> since salsa is mainly vegetables itself. At least according to them. So
> that's why I was considering it when I was at the store the other day.

There are different kinds of salsa.  Much of the commercial salsa you buy
has been cooked.  When you cook vegetables, they become soft and take up
less space.  For that reason, they say a serving of raw vegetables is 1 cup
and a serving of cooked vegetables is 1/2 a cup.  I prefer fresh salsa when
I can find it.  Alas, I can't find it here in NY very easily.  But you could
make your own.  Fresh salsa is simply chopped fresh things like tomatillos,
tomatoes, onions, cilantro, peppers, seasonings, and perhaps a bit of lime
juice.  It has a lower carb count than the bottled salsas and usually
doesn't have added sugar.  The stuff in the bottles often has sugar or corn
syrup to improve the taste.

I've never tried salsa on vegetables, except for on salad.  But I guess you
wouldn't eat that since you don't like leafy greens.  Salad is one of my
favorite foods, but I hate salad dressing.  I usually eat mine plain or
perhaps with salsa if I am craving Mexican food.  I have heard of it used to
top baked potatoes, but that sounds kind of strange to me.  I have used it
in corn or dried beans.  But those things are carby too.

If you are on Weight Watchers, you may have to amend your eating somewhat to
make it work with your diabetes.  Both my brother (type 2) and his wife
(pre-diabetes) are on this plan.  It works for them as far as the diabetes
goes, but they way they eat is not something that would work for me.  My
sister in law has lost a ton of weight, but my brother has lost very little.

> I was wondering about this myself. I have to confess to going to
> Baskin-Robbins with a friend since posting my original message a few
> hours, not intending to have anything because of my newly-diagnosed
> condition, and seeing a "no sugar added" product. OK, I gave in and had
> some, but this will be the last time until I get good advice.

Find out what is in the stuff before you eat it.  I was at the mall once and
got very hot and thirsty.  They had a booth where they were selling Italian
Ices.  They had some sugar free ones, but nobody could tell me what was in
them.  I knew better, but I had a small one anyway because their "small"
size was really very small.  Alas, my BG was way too high after eating it.
It tasted funny too, at least towards the end.  I thought the first few
bites were good, but then I wished I hadn't eaten it because it left a weird
taste in my mouth.  I hope your Baskin-Robbins thing was at least enjoyable.

I now own a Snowcone machine and a variety of Splenda sweetened syrups.
This makes a great treat with no carbs and no calories!  Actually, I own
three of them.  Two are manual ones.  They work, but I would highly
recommend the electric one.  Treats in an instant!  And once the neighbors
find out, they'll be lining up to get some.

<sni>

> No, the weight came on because I have been overeating a lot in the past
> few years.

But...  You may have been overeating because of the diabetes!  Uncontrolled
diabetes can cause extreme hunger.  And there is a theory that excess
insulin (which many people with type 2 have) can cause you to retain fat,
especially around the mid-section.  This is sort of like the chicken and egg
thing.  Which came first?  Alas, nobody knows for sure.

<snip>

> As I've pointed out, all I've had so far is a few minutes in a doctor's
> office, with a follow-up scheduled for Wednesday, and no diabetes
> education yet. The whole concept of meters is new to me. I never lived
> in the same household with a diabetic (while the person was known to be
> diabetic) before, even though it runs in my family.

The Dr. was being VERY lax not to have told you about getting a meter.  Some
Drs. tell newly diagnosed patients very little because they don't want to
frighten them.  Or because they figure the patient isn't going to do what
they say anyway.  My former Endo. said that very few of his patients
actually tested their BG like they were supposed to and very few modified
their diet in any way.  They figured that they'd take a pill and that was
all they needed.  Alas, this does seem to be the norm.  The people you see
posting here are for the most part the minority as far as diabetics go.
Most of us found this newsgroup because we wanted to make positive changes.
So your being here is a good thing!

Signature

Type 2
http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

t2_lurking - 27 Oct 2003 04:35 GMT
>>snipperoni<<

> I actually don't eat much salsa and ketchup. But my Weight Watcher
> leaders have recommended salsa on vegetables to make them taste better,
> since salsa is mainly vegetables itself. At least according to them. So
> that's why I was considering it when I was at the store the other day.

Aha! A fellow Weight Watcher!
Me too, I got a couple of 5lb-10lb  pins. I went from 290 to 265, then
stalled.
Two years later when I was dxed I was 264.
M O T I V A T E D!
I'm down to 225 now and I wish I could express to you the correlation
between weight and BG readings.
Everytime I've lost 10 lbs I've had a drop in BG readings.
One WW thing you can use to good effect with your new diabetic lifestyle is
meal logging.
Once you start to cross-reference carbs eaten to BG readings a lot of things
become much clearer.
Learning by doing, with diabetes you can't count on one thing working
globally. This has been distilled as an acronym: YMMV. Your Mileage May
Vary. What works for me may or MAY NOT work for you. Only your meter can
tell you. The variation between different people is fascinating. At least I
think it is.
If you are still current at WW then you should have the current books, a
great reference!
If not you may want to buy Corinne Netzer's The Complete Book of Food Counts
(Ctn Food Counts).
btw: BG = blood glucose.
Well, you certainly have had a lot of advice today!
Keep in touch, this is a loooong term disease, things happen slowly.
Patience is a key.

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t2_lurking
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Do not mail to t2_lurking (auto-delete)
===============================
The mature man lives quietly, does good privately,
assumes personal responsibility for his actions,
treats others with friendliness and courtesy,
finds mischief boring and keeps out of it.
Without this hidden conspiracy of good will,
society would not endure an hour.
 --- Kenneth Rexroth ---

K'neH'a'Iw - 27 Oct 2003 22:08 GMT
L wrote:

> I actually don't eat much salsa and ketchup. But my Weight Watcher
> leaders have recommended salsa on vegetables to make them taste
> better, since salsa is mainly vegetables itself. At least according
> to them. So that's why I was considering it when I was at the store
> the other day.

You may find you can eat Salsa, YMMV is the motto of this group.
I find I can eat a pretty good amount of Salsa, but very little ketchup.
Start by cutting is all out, it will help you lose weight anyway and
then testing after every meal to see what effect it has on you blood
sugar. Be aware that it may take a few weeks go get you blood sugar down.

>> The weight may have come on because of the diabetes.  The
>> cholesterol problems may well get better once you get your BG under
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> No, the weight came on because I have been overeating a lot in the
> past few years.

Diabetes may have caused the over stimulated appetite. If your body
cannot process the glucose in your blood, it thinks it needs to eat more
and tells you you are hungry. When you have excess glucose in your blood
your liver tries to get rid of it by storing it as fat.
None of this is agreed to by everybody. At least it's one theory of how
diabetes causes weight gain.

> As I've pointed out, all I've had so far is a few minutes in a
> doctor's office, with a follow-up scheduled for Wednesday, and no
> diabetes education yet. The whole concept of meters is new to me. I
> never lived in the same household with a diabetic (while the person
> was known to be diabetic) before, even though it runs in my family.

Your doctor may give you one, or may refer you to an Endo who may give
you one. Your health insurance may provide one, you may have to buy one.
But get one ASAP and begin testing, initially a lot, later you may find
you can keep good control with less testing. When you see your doctor,
have him write a prescription for a meter and a lot of test strips, you
may need it to get it covered under your health insurance. I test 5 time
a day, and consider that the minimum, others here test more often.

Signature

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Uncloaking, Shields up.

kaci - 27 Oct 2003 02:21 GMT
> Three years ago, I tested normal. So, now I'm thinking -
> how long until foot amputations? how long until I go blind? how long
> until my kidneys go out, and I need dialysys? how long until I need to
> take insulin? how long until I die?

Except for dying, which none of us has the inside skinny on, these
things are not inevitable and need not ever happen to you, but you
know that. However, this *is* one disease where your fate is entirely
in your hands. I moaned a lot about what I couldn't eat any more until
I realized this thing isn't going to go away just because I would like
it to. And it's not that I can never have ice cream or cake again,
just that I can't eat them in the quantities or with the regularity
that I used to.

If I ignored that lump I found in my breast three years ago, I don't
want to think of where I'd be now. I also don't want to gamble with
DM. There are much worse diseases than one that forces you to eat
right and exercise. I'm simplifying, but that's what it boils down
to-- you're in charge. I was diagnosed in April of this year and as I
write this, I feel better than I have in 2 years.
kaci
Susan Faries - 27 Oct 2003 04:34 GMT
Hi,
     I to suffer from diabetic neuropathy now for at least a year.  I also
had something called diabetic amyotrophy, which is better now.  I joined a
drug study for the neuropathy and am taking a drug called duloxetine.  It is
working great.  To answer your thoughts on other diabetic related
complications-you have a higher chance of having a heart attack before any
of the other things even have a chance of developing.  You should work on
bringing down your cholesterol and triglycerides either with diet or drugs.
You need to keep your BG in control as much as possible, that is keep your
A1C around 7 or less.  A BG being elevated for a short period of time after
eating wedding cake or enjoying sweets is not as bad, as long as you go back
to eating correctly right after.  Good foot care is also important.  You
need to check your feet everyday for cracks,blisters or open wounds,etc.
This will help cut down on the chance of foot problems.

sueellen58 DX Type 2 Jan 02

> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> 2. Amitriptyline HCL 25 mg once a day at bedtime for the foot problem. I

> took this years ago for something else. I've been pretty drowsy since
> Thursday, but I had to go to work Thurs. and Friday. Thursday, I needed
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
> --
> Remove nospam wherever it appears in my email address to reply.
Loretta Eisenberg - 27 Oct 2003 18:37 GMT
I am sorry but there is no shaking the diabetes out of your system,
Once a diabetic lalways a diabetic.  You will be in better control and
as long as you are , you will be fine,  But eat a bowl of pasta and
watch what happens even if you lose twenty five pounds.

Second, you dont have to go your whole life without a piece of cake or a
milky way.  What works for me, is portion control.  If you can have a
quarter of milky way that should be fine as long as you count the carbs
in with your others and you are low enough innumbers to have it.  I
portion control everything and there is little I dont eat.  YMMV but
this works for me most of the time unless I overdo.

I know I cant have cookies in my house because there would be no
portioning,  I would eat the whole  bag. You need to know what your
poisons are and not keep them around   I can have a chocolate bar around
for about four five days because it is not my thing,  

Good luck with your journey but please remembered diabetes isnt a virus
that leaves your system,  It can be in control, but like fat cells, it
is there to rear its ugly head.

Loretta

--
In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.
K'neH'a'Iw - 27 Oct 2003 21:50 GMT
> Hi,
>
> This past Tuesday, a doctor confirmed what I had suspected for some time
> - that I am diabetic.

Sorry to hear of your diagnosis. Welcome and I hope you find this group
helpful, its been very helpful to me.

> The doctor showed me my test results during the Tuesday visit. I have
> been given the following information and prescriptions:

Make sure you always get copies of the test results. They are very
useful in following you progress.

> 5. And the admonition - "no sweets!"

As others have already said this is very simplified. You need to watch
your carbs.

> Some information about me - I am female, age 51, about 40-50 pounds
> overweight (a somewhat recent development).

Losing excess weight can help your Blood Glucose greatly.

> I caught a quick glimpse of  the test results,

Never settle for a quick glimpse. Always get copies of the tests and at
least until you understand the results read up in the tests and ask
questions here. Perhaps the most important test for a diabetic is the
HbA1c which indicate how well you are controlling you Blood Glucose.

> and my triglycerides (sp?) were 700-something or
> 800-something.

This alone indicated high insulin resistance, Cutting the carbs in your
diet will lower this a lot. The recommended value is less than 100 for
diabetics.

> My cholesterol was 285,

This is above the current threshold for treating high cholesterol. Did
you get the HDL and LDL numbers? These are important in understanding
your risk.

Did you doctor give you any value for your blood glucose? Its odd to me
that you would be diagnosed as diabetic and the doctor would not give
you the result of the A1x or a Blood Glucose test.

> The doctor I saw last Tuesday told me that if I lost 25 pounds, I could
> very well shake the diabetes out of my system.

My Doctor always tells me weight loss is the cornerstone of my treatment.

> I have alternating thoughts. The first one is that this is indeed only a
> 6-8 month inconvenience, similar to one experienced by a woman I know
> who had gestational diabetes when she was pregnant. And while I'd be in
> a situation in which it could come back, I would take better care of my
> body so it won't.

You will always need to take care of your body so it won't cause you
serious inconvenience. You may be able to go back to doing some of the
things you used to do, if you get diabetes under control, and keep it
there. You certainly can live a long, active and fulfilling life even
with diabetes.

> Three years ago, I tested normal.

It is possible that you either were normal at  the time of a Blood
Glucose test or that it developed recently. One of the symptoms for Type
2 is a sudden weight gain but then so is a sudden weight loss. There
have been discussion about whether being overweight causes diabetes of
whether diabetes causes you to be overweight.

Welcome and good luck.

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