Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / August 2006

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

A bold hypothesis

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Quentin Grady - 18 Aug 2006 04:22 GMT
G'day G'day Folks,

 It is fascinating to follow the personal trials and tribulations of
someone who boldly goes where others don't dare.  In this instance
Kilmer McKully dared to think outside the established beliefs as to
the cause of coronary heart disease, CHD.  The widely accepted
hypothesis is that high levels of blood cholesterol especially LDL
leads to CHD.   Unfortunately, his determination to explore an
alternative hypothesis lead to him losing funding and becoming
unemployable in some 50+ universities.  This level of persecution had
the unfortunate effect of encouraging even greater belief in his
original hypothesis and delayed proper exploration of its validity.

Here in a nutshell is McKully's hypothesis.  

Modern overly-refined diets were leading to the accumulation of
homocysteine in the blood. Homocysteine is toxic and destroys arterial
integrity.  With a wholesome diet homocysteine is produced only in
small amounts so does no damage. When the diet is made up of overly
processed foods, certain vitamins and minerals are lacking in the
amounts demanded by the macronutrients in the foods.  For example if
the diet is high in refined carbohydrates then the B group vitamins eg
B6 and folic acid were proportionately deficient and so the demand for
them exceeded the supply.  If one ate meat, then the supply of
methionine, an amino acid found in abundance in protein from meat,
encouraged the formation of more homocysteine.  His solution was not
to obtain protein from vegetarian sources which is deficient in
methionine but instead to combine meat eating with eating vegetables
that provided some hundred different folates that converted the
homocysteine safely back into methionine.  

McKully did account for the correlation between the high LDL and CHD.
LDL carried homocysteine. After all LDL does have one of the best
correlations to CHD though not the best. The higher LDL, the more
homocysteine could be carried through the arteries to do damage.

What he proposed as a diet made a lot of sense that many of us could
take on board or find that we already have taken on board for other
reasons.  By in large, avoid supermarket food and "take away" food.
Convenience food may contain eggs which many find healthy but if they
come in a packeted premix then they are dried and the B group vitamins
needed to convert homocysteine would be depleted.  Avoid refined
carbohydrates eg white rice, white bread etc for the same reasons. He
did encourage fortified products where Vit B6, Vit B12, folic acid and
minerals such as magnesium were added.  Unlike many here he didn't
discourage eating of potatoes except canned potato and dried potato
powder where the B group vitamins were depleted.

All in all he offered a 6 week program that would lower the risk of
CHD.

It all seems very plausible.  He had found some youngsters who had
died of CHD yet had not built up cholesterol laden plaque. They had
died of high homocysteine.  Half of the people who died of CHD have
normal levels of LDL.  His bold hypothesis, though it obviously
annoyed the conventional thinkers, appeared to hold merit.

What then was the snag?

Well it came when scientist performed INTERVENTION trials.  As so
often happens the intervention trials were not carried out using
wholesale dietary change as McKully had done.  They were carried out
without dietary change but with the addition of supplements. The first
that I am aware of used large amounts of folic acid, one form of
folate that is readily available in standard form. It reduced
homocysteine to normal levels wonderfully.  What it didn't do was
reduce CHD rates.  Some later studies used a combination of folate
with Vit B6 and Vit B12. They seem to have suffered the same fate.
They reduced homocysteine but didn't reduce CHD.  Clearly something
other than homocysteine reduction was at work in the success of
McKully's "Proven 6 week program"  and McKully was overstating his
case when he published, the "EXTRAORDINARY DISCOVERY that finally laid
the cholesterol myth to rest"

In later threads I would like to tackle some other bold hypotheses
because there is much to be learnt from them. Some of the learning is
in the accepting and some in the rejection of novel ideas.

Best wishes,
Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Chris Malcolm - 18 Aug 2006 08:10 GMT
> G'day G'day Folks,

>   It is fascinating to follow the personal trials and tribulations of
> someone who boldly goes where others don't dare.  In this instance
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> the unfortunate effect of encouraging even greater belief in his
> original hypothesis and delayed proper exploration of its validity.

> Here in a nutshell is McKully's hypothesis.  

> Modern overly-refined diets were leading to the accumulation of
> homocysteine in the blood. Homocysteine is toxic and destroys arterial
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> that provided some hundred different folates that converted the
> homocysteine safely back into methionine.  

> McKully did account for the correlation between the high LDL and CHD.
> LDL carried homocysteine. After all LDL does have one of the best
> correlations to CHD though not the best. The higher LDL, the more
> homocysteine could be carried through the arteries to do damage.

> What he proposed as a diet made a lot of sense that many of us could
> take on board or find that we already have taken on board for other
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> discourage eating of potatoes except canned potato and dried potato
> powder where the B group vitamins were depleted.

> All in all he offered a 6 week program that would lower the risk of
> CHD.

> It all seems very plausible.  He had found some youngsters who had
> died of CHD yet had not built up cholesterol laden plaque. They had
> died of high homocysteine.  Half of the people who died of CHD have
> normal levels of LDL.  His bold hypothesis, though it obviously
> annoyed the conventional thinkers, appeared to hold merit.

> What then was the snag?

> Well it came when scientist performed INTERVENTION trials.  As so
> often happens the intervention trials were not carried out using
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> case when he published, the "EXTRAORDINARY DISCOVERY that finally laid
> the cholesterol myth to rest"

> In later threads I would like to tackle some other bold hypotheses
> because there is much to be learnt from them. Some of the learning is
> in the accepting and some in the rejection of novel ideas.

What many unimaginative scientists find difficult to accept is that it
is possible to get the right results and be wrong about the reasons.
They find something wrong with the suggested reasons, and junk the
whole research, instead of realising that the results are now even
more interesting and the reasons narrowed down.

Of course, it's not just unimaginative scientists who do this :-)

Signature

Chris Malcolm        cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk              DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Quentin Grady - 18 Aug 2006 12:13 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On 18 Aug 2006 07:10:32 GMT, Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
wrote:

>What many unimaginative scientists find difficult to accept is that it
>is possible to get the right results and be wrong about the reasons.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Of course, it's not just unimaginative scientists who do this :-)

G'day G'day Chris,

 I think McKully came close to discovering something useful. However
the way he was treated pushed him into thinking he had the definitive
answer.  His DIET worked. Processing to make food easy to prepare
really does make the B group vitamins disappear.  In case of brown
rice something like precooked rice has lost 94% of its Vit B6. The
wake up call for me was with canned beans where I had appreciated
their convenience only to discover a 77 lost of Vit B6.  If you look
at his diet one finds it is in many respects similar to what has
worked with many people here.  Eating plentiful fresh vegetables, lean
meat, healthy oils, berries, nuts etc.  He is more lenient than many
here with carbohydrates being concerned only with the degree of
processing.  It seem apparent to me that homocysteine was one factor
involved but there was some other closely related factor that has yet
to be discovered.  

Best wishes,
Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Roger Zoul - 18 Aug 2006 14:39 GMT
:: What many unimaginative scientists find difficult to accept is that
:: it is possible to get the right results and be wrong about the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
::
:: Of course, it's not just unimaginative scientists who do this :-)

Sometimes it sucks to be a human being. :)
italiangm - 18 Aug 2006 11:20 GMT
For those of you wishing to research the good doctor's published work
in PubMed, Google Scholar, and other search engines, the correct
spelling is McCully, not McKully.
italiangm - 18 Aug 2006 11:29 GMT
Also note the oft mentioned president of the Weston A. Price
Foundation, Sally Fallon, gives Dr Kilmer McCully's book "The
Homocysteine Revolution" a thumbs-down review at
http://www.westonaprice.org/bookreviews/homocysteine.html
Alan S - 18 Aug 2006 12:04 GMT
>Also note the oft mentioned president of the Weston A. Price
>Foundation, Sally Fallon, gives Dr Kilmer McCully's book "The
>Homocysteine Revolution" a thumbs-down review at
>http://www.westonaprice.org/bookreviews/homocysteine.html

I have no idea (yet, as I haven't had time to read it all)
of the relative merits of these various authors - beyond the
comments by Quentin. However, my antennae rise whenever I
note a review by another author in the same field with a
differing philosophy.

Note that the "oft mentioned president of the Weston A.
Price Foundation" notes this after her critique:

"About the Reviewer

Sally Fallon is the author of Nourishing Traditions: The
Cookbook that Challenges Politically Correct Nutrition and
the Diet Dictocrats, and Eat Fat, Lose Fat (both with Mary
G. Enig, PhD), as well as of numerous articles on the
subject of diet and health. She is President of the Weston
A. Price Foundation and founder of A Campaign for Real Milk.
She is the mother of four healthy children raised on whole
foods including butter, cream, eggs and meat."

Her main points of criticism are to do with the milk and fat
recommendations. Hmmm. Do we detect an agenda..

So, what is the "Weston A. Price Foundation"?

I'm glad you asked:-)

http://www.westonaprice.org/splash_2.htm
"The Weston A. Price Foundation is a nonprofit, tax-exempt
charity founded in 1999 to disseminate the research of
nutrition pioneer Dr. Weston Price, whose studies of
isolated nonindustrialized peoples established the
parameters of human health and determined the optimum
characteristics of human diets. Dr. Price's research
demonstrated that humans achieve perfect physical form and
perfect health generation after generation only when they
consume nutrient-dense whole foods and the vital fat-soluble
activators found exclusively in animal fats."

Another agenda. Maybe they're right. I think I'll stick to
considering Quentin's analysis at this stage - which to me
indicates that McCully got some of it right - and some of it
wrong.  What is needed for later researchers to develop the
right part and discard the wrong part - after they determine
which is which.

But I doubt those later researchers will come from any
organisation or writer which throws the baby out with the
bathwater. Like Sally Fallon. Oddly enough she would totally
agree with my breakfast - but I didn't choose it based on
her ideas.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 500mg
Signature

Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Nicky - 18 Aug 2006 17:28 GMT
> Also note the oft mentioned president of the Weston A. Price
> Foundation, Sally Fallon, gives Dr Kilmer McCully's book "The
> Homocysteine Revolution" a thumbs-down review at
> http://www.westonaprice.org/bookreviews/homocysteine.html

That, of course, is practically a recommendation : )  Sally Fallon holds,
um, somewhat unusual views on a range of things... although I'm grateful to
her for her whey preserving recipe!

Nicky.

Signature

A1c 10.5/5.3/<6  T2 DX 05/2004
No Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
95/72/72Kg

Quentin Grady - 18 Aug 2006 21:51 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On 18 Aug 2006 03:29:52 -0700, "italiangm" <italiangm@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Also note the oft mentioned president of the Weston A. Price
>Foundation, Sally Fallon, gives Dr Kilmer McCully's book "The
>Homocysteine Revolution" a thumbs-down review at
>http://www.westonaprice.org/bookreviews/homocysteine.html

G'day G'day Ilaliangm,

 Sally Fallon et al, are the most vocal advocates of saturated fats
from animal and coconut sources.  In their hypothesis trans fats cause
the problems attributed to saturated fats. Omega-6 polyunsaturated
fats are to blame for current cholesterol problems.  Since saturated
fats raise cholesterol levels they naturally support anyone presenting
a hypothesis that discredits the cholesterol hypothesis.

Best wishes,

Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Quentin Grady - 18 Aug 2006 12:15 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On 18 Aug 2006 03:20:00 -0700, "italiangm" <italiangm@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>For those of you wishing to research the good doctor's published work
>in PubMed, Google Scholar, and other search engines, the correct
>spelling is McCully, not McKully.

My apologies for the misspelling.

Best wishes,
Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Michelle - 18 Aug 2006 19:32 GMT
Hi Quentin,

I am reminded of the Australian researchers who discovered that ulcers
are actually caused by the bacteria, Helicobacter.  They suffered years
of ridicule--and turned out to be right.

Unfortunately, in the case of Kilmer McCully, what he is trying to
prove is far more complex--too many details to tweak.  While never
intending to minimize the Australian researchers work, what they were
trying to prove was a basic question:  were bacteria present in ulcers
or not.  The answer is a simple yes or no.  Of course, the hard part
was in inventing the means to detect a bacteria that could survive the
extremely harsh conditions of the stomach.  No small feat.

Michelle T2
diet & exercise

> G'day G'day Folks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 82 lines]
>
> http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
wmmckee@cox.net - 18 Aug 2006 20:42 GMT
> Of course, the hard part
> was in inventing the means to detect a bacteria that could survive the
> extremely harsh conditions of the stomach.  No small feat.

Hi Michelle,

As I mentioned in my posts of about a week ago concerning the hypothetical
terrorist manufacture of a bomb from pee (admittedly a silly exercise to
illustrate a more basic point relating to certain organic chemistry stunts
and tricks that might be employed), I made reference to the fact that
Heliobacter pylori, the bacteria now known to be associated with stomach
ulcers. One characteristic of H. pylori is that it produces a kind of
urease. Urease is an enzyme that catalyzes the hydrolysis of CO2 and ammonia
from urea, which is produced natually in the liver, as a way of dealing with
the production of ammonia in the tissues as metabolic waste.

There are now tests that have been developed to detect the presence and
activity of H. pylori, by detection of urease, at least one of which is a
quick breath test. It is thought that the function of the urease produced by
H. pylori in an infection is to neutralize the stomach acid by catalyzing
the production of ammonia.

It is estimated by some specialists that up to 70% of infections by H.
pylori are asymptomatic.

Will, T2
Michelle - 18 Aug 2006 22:58 GMT
Hi Will,

Very interesting about the urease.  In the lab we used antibody
tests--but that had it's limitations.  If the patient is tested too
early in the infection, the body had not yet developed antibody.
Likewise, once the antibody was manufactured in the body, it stayed, so
if a person was re-infected, there was no way to tell.  The urease test
in the breath would be a way to get around this.

I'd heard that most H. pylori infections were asymptomic.  The majority
of people in the 3rd world test positive.

Michelle T2
diet & exercise

> > Of course, the hard part
> > was in inventing the means to detect a bacteria that could survive the
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Michelle - 19 Aug 2006 00:28 GMT
Duh, I meant had "its" limitations, not it's.

Also had another thought, a memory actually.  Before the antibody test
was developed, we did do urease tests on stomach tissue biopsies.
However, since that procedure is much more invasive than a blood draw,
it largely fell by the wayside once the antibody test was developed.
Still a breath urease test...an interesting idea.

Michelle

> Hi Will,
>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
> > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Cheri - 19 Aug 2006 01:19 GMT
We knew what you meant. :-)

--
Cheri

Michelle wrote in message

<1155943732.868282.3810@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>...
>Duh, I meant had "its" limitations, not it's.
Michelle - 19 Aug 2006 02:35 GMT
Thanks Cheri!  :-)

> We knew what you meant. :-)
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> <1155943732.868282.3810@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>...
> >Duh, I meant had "its" limitations, not it's.
Quentin Grady - 18 Aug 2006 21:42 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On 18 Aug 2006 11:32:48 -0700, "Michelle" <bookbug2005@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Hi Quentin,
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>trying to prove was a basic question:  were bacteria present in ulcers
>or not.  The answer is a simple yes or no.

G'day G'day Michelle,

Even then they had to prove the H.pylori bacteria caused the ulcer
and didn't opportunistically invade the ulcer that had formed because
of "stress"    We are lucky there are people who will persist with
unpopular hypotheses.  IMHO it would do more for the scientific
credibility of prestigious organisations to support such people than
to cut off their funding. It is one thing to say 'academic freedom"
and another to actively fund it in research.

>  Of course, the hard part
>was in inventing the means to detect a bacteria that could survive the
>extremely harsh conditions of the stomach.  No small feat.
>
>Michelle T2
>diet & exercise

Best wishes,
Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Michelle - 19 Aug 2006 00:24 GMT
> This post not CC'd by email
>  On 18 Aug 2006 11:32:48 -0700, "Michelle" <bookbug2005@gmail.com>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> G'day G'day Michelle,

Hi Quentin,

>  Even then they had to prove the H.pylori bacteria caused the ulcer
> and didn't opportunistically invade the ulcer that had formed because
> of "stress"

Yes, that is true.  The researchers really had an uphill battle.

We are lucky there are people who will persist with
> unpopular hypotheses.  IMHO it would do more for the scientific
> credibility of prestigious organisations to support such people than
> to cut off their funding. It is one thing to say 'academic freedom"
> and another to actively fund it in research.

I agree.  One has to wonder about the motivations of those who alienate
researchers with non-standard hypotheses.  Somehow, it doesn't seem to
be about the science or truth.

Michelle T2
diet & research
Quentin Grady - 19 Aug 2006 04:14 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On 18 Aug 2006 16:24:36 -0700, "Michelle" <bookbug2005@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Hi Quentin,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>researchers with non-standard hypotheses.  Somehow, it doesn't seem to
>be about the science or truth.

>Michelle T2
>diet & research

G'day G'day Michelle,

As someone who believes the scientific method is as good as it gets
when it comes to sort fact from fiction I'm dismayed that politics and
backdoor economic factors colour the picture tainting the reputation
of the scientific method.  To me the universities have a sacred trust
they need to respect to maintain their reputations.

Best wishes,
Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Chris Malcolm - 19 Aug 2006 11:51 GMT
> This post not CC'd by email
>  On 18 Aug 2006 16:24:36 -0700, "Michelle" <bookbug2005@gmail.com>
> wrote:

>>> We are lucky there are people who will persist with
>>> unpopular hypotheses.  IMHO it would do more for the scientific
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>researchers with non-standard hypotheses.  Somehow, it doesn't seem to
>>be about the science or truth.

> G'day G'day Michelle,

>  As someone who believes the scientific method is as good as it gets
> when it comes to sort fact from fiction I'm dismayed that politics and
> backdoor economic factors colour the picture tainting the reputation
> of the scientific method.  To me the universities have a sacred trust
> they need to respect to maintain their reputations.

The trouble is that universities get most of their research money from
business or govt. It's very hard to persuade someone who's paying a
lot for research that they shouldn't be trying to buy the results
they'd like. You could even argue in court that a business was failing
in its duty to its shareholders if it didn't try to buy the most
profitable research results.

Signature

Chris Malcolm        cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk              DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Quentin Grady - 20 Aug 2006 00:21 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On 19 Aug 2006 10:51:56 GMT, Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
wrote:

>> G'day G'day Michelle,
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>in its duty to its shareholders if it didn't try to buy the most
>profitable research results.

G'day G'day Chris,

You could argue that from the business point of view.  

Sadly it assumes the universities are venal which is probably what
they have to be of necessity.  Academic ideas run a sad second to
economic realities.  The point is we must all be aware of this and not
assume that results are untainted.

Best wishes,
Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Michelle - 19 Aug 2006 19:20 GMT
Hi Quentin,

Agreed!  I think the rash of falsification of testing data that has
shaken the scientific community in recent years shows that these
outside pressures with a non-scientific agenda are becoming too much to
bear.

Michelle

> This post not CC'd by email
>  On 18 Aug 2006 16:24:36 -0700, "Michelle" <bookbug2005@gmail.com>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Susan - 19 Aug 2006 20:35 GMT
> Hi Quentin,
>
> Agreed!  I think the rash of falsification of testing data that has
> shaken the scientific community in recent years shows that these
> outside pressures with a non-scientific agenda are becoming too much to
> bear.

Michelle, it's not a rash nor is it recent.  What makes it seem that way
is that in recent years, even medical journal publishers have outed it.

Think back to SIDS, and the doctor who falsified and bullied everyone
into toeing the line he started, that sudden infant death ran in
families.  Turns out, he provided cover for infanticides.  There's a
book, the death of innocents, written about it.

Susan
Michelle - 19 Aug 2006 22:39 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Susan

Hi Susan,

Hmmm.  I hadn't heard of the SIDs doctor.  I tend to think more about
those scientists who do research for the pharmaceutical industry.
Shows my bias.

Michelle T2
diet & exercise
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2010 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.