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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / August 2006Fat People In Deep Denial About Obesity
Fat People In Deep Denial About Obesity Jimmy Moore, Agust 3, 2006 The following is a reprint from the blog "Livin' La Vida Low-Carb": http://www.commonvoice.com/article.asp?colid=5547 Dr. Schutt's survey of obese people produced surprising results One of the main reasons why obesity continues to be on the rise in the United States and around the world is quite obvious: many of these people don't feel like they have a weight problem and may even be under the mistaken notion that they are already living a "healthy" lifestyle resigning themselves to the inevitability that they will be stuck in the body of a fat person forever. Now this Forbes story about a new survey of obese people provides some evidence that proves that theory is exactly right! Dr. David Schutt from the healthcare research firm Thomson Medstat conducted a random telephone survey from January to March with over 11,000 people, of which about one-third (3,100) were obese or morbidly obese and other 4,200 were considered overweight, and made some startling discoveries about the reality and severity of their weight problem according to their answers. Here are some of the findings: - Over three-fourths of obese Americans say they eat healthy - Nearly 40 percent of obese Americans say they do "vigorous" exercise a minimum of three times a week - Twenty-eight percent of obese Americans say they snack twice or more daily compared with 24 percent of normal weight Americans. - Nineteen percent of obese Americans say they always read nutritional labels compared with 24 percent of normal weight Americans. - Twenty-nine percent of obese Americans say they eat out at a restaurant over three times a week compared with 25 percent of normal weight Americans. - Interestingly, of those who ate out at restaurants, 41 percent of the obese people said they ate every morsel of food put in front of them compared with 31 percent of the normal weight Americans. Dr. Schutt said the results of his survey tell him there is "some denial going on" in the minds of these obese Americans. "Or there is a lack of understanding of what does it mean to be eating healthy, and what is vigorous exercise," he noted. Additionally, the survey left out a very important question regarding the quantity of the food eaten by obese people compared with their normal weight counterparts. Another flaw in the survey is the expectation that the respondents would be honest with their answers, but the perception by the obese people who were surveyed that they are eating and exercising well was quite telling. The survey had a margin of error of plus or minus 1 percentage point. So what are we to make of this survey? PLENTY! First, with the whole issue of people being so ultrasensitive to being labeled fat or obese, society has become conditioned to look the other way and simply ignore the obesity problem even exists in people. When is the last time you have heard about someone confronting the obese about their weight? GASP! YOU CAN'T DO THAT, IT'S SO CRUEL!!! Um, can I respond to that criticism quite bluntly (I don't really need your permission because I'm gonna do it anyway)? If someone is on the verge of dying because they cannot lose weight and restore their health, then what kind of friend or loved one would I be if I DIDN'T do something to help them?! Hmmm? When did we all become such sissys and let our feelings take over what is the right thing to do? UGH! No wonder I kept getting BIGGER and BIGGER until I decided enough was enough at 410 pounds! Even our doctors are overlooking obesity and giving the overweight a free pass. WAKE UP PEOPLE! Second, these obese people are in serious deep denial and remind me of my nearly 600-pound brother Kevin. By the way, I hear Kevin is trying to start livin' la vida low-carb to get his weight under control, but he's got a long way to go. His predicament illustates this point about denial perfectly. When you don't think there's a problem, you don't know that you're supposed to be fixing it. It's not until a heart attack or some other life-jolting experience hits that people are moved into action. Finally, people aren't being encouraged and educated in how to lose weight, so they give up on even TRYING. This is the saddest part to me. That's one of the reasons I started my "30-In-30" Low-Carb Weight Loss Challenge this week because people WANT to know there is hope for them to find a way out of their obesity. I'm here to tell you as a former 410-pounder who thought weight loss was out of my reach, it IS possible and you CAN be successful! DON'T GIVE UP!!! While this survey shows obese people don't want to own up to the fact that they are fat, the truth is they are and it's time to do something about it. Stop making excuses and start losing weight right here and right now. Make today the first day of your commitment to lose weight and keep it off for the rest of your life. It'll be one of the greatest decisions you have ever made in your life and you will never be the same again. Take it from me -- 180 pounds are GONE forever! YOU CAN DO IT! please beleive me fat people know that they are fat. jenius X-No-Archive: */> please beleive me fat people know that they are fat. jenius X-No-Archive: ...if you say so buddy..... Obese People Clueless About Their Weight Problem, Survey Reveals Posted by Jimmy Moore on August 2 Dr. David Schutt from the healthcare research firm Thomson Medstat conducted a random telephone survey from January to March with over 11,000 people, of which about one-third (3,100) were obese or morbidly obese and other 4,200 were considered overweight, and made some startling discoveries about the reality and severity of their weight problem according to their answers. Here are some of the key findings: - Over three-fourths of obese Americans say they eat healthy - Nearly 40 percent of obese Americans say they do "vigorous" exercise a minimum of three times a week - Of those who ate out at restaurants, 41 percent of the obese people said they ate every morsel of food put in front of them compared with 31 percent of the normal weight Americans. Dr. Schutt says the results of his survey show that obese people are clueless about their weight problem and in obvious denial about just how serious the issue is. But these people are in for a rude awakening someday. While this survey shows obese people don't want to own up to the fact that they are fat, the truth is they are and it's time to do something about it. http://www.carbwire.com/2006/08/02/obese_people_clueless_about_their_weight_prob lem_survey_reveals >please beleive me fat people know that they are fat. jenius And far too many who aren't believe they are simply due to the size of people they see on television and in print media.  SignatureGrandpa Chuck -ô¿ô- ~ The following information is given with the utmost respect for the armed forces and civilians who have died in the current war in Iraq. According to http://icasualties.org/oif/ The number of Americans killed in Iraq as of August 06, 2006 is 2,592. Americans wounded = more than 18,777 United Kingdom = 115 Other = 115 Over 100 Iraqi civilians are killed every day. Most of them by the so-called insurgents. Today, August 8, 2006 it has been 1195 days since Bush declared,"Mission Accomplished in Iraq." Why do some people still believe what he says? Don'y we give a "free pass" to drunks and drug addicts everytime we accept one of them into our social circle? How many of us have a friend like that? I'd wager more than a few. All fat people are asking for is acceptance. fat people know their fat, they don't need people like you criticizing them. Fat people need to be viewed as people, not some foreign alien thing from outer space, that is why this group is called fat acceptance. post all the medical crap you want, most fat people have already read it so you are only being redundant, as for the comment I read in another post about the woman that ate a whole box of cereal at one sitting, maybe that was true, though I doubt it, but why should it concern any one but the person who ate it? And so what if she were at someone else's house, aside from being rude I doubt that it broke the budget. What would you say about a brew hog, I've known plenty of them. jenius you might consider this, the original poster is a known troll, nothing more. the original poster gives this away by starting these threads and Cross posting them to unrelated newsgroups in order to spark flame wars. sadly you are viewing the groups through google which requires you to self moderate the groups you read by skipping over posts from known trolls. You could avoid this by getting a true newsgroup reader like Agent or Xnews and accessing the groups through your ISPs news server and or one of several free third party servers. Both agent(for pay) and Xnews(free) have what is known as a kill file, when you add a troll to the kill file you will never see posts from them again, unless someone else quotes them in a reply, when that happens and the entire thread is ruined by the troll you simply kill file the thread by the subject line and you won't be bothered by the replies either. > Don'y we give a "free pass" to drunks and drug addicts everytime we > accept one of them into our social circle? ___________ Amen. I am in the National Weight Loss Registry after losing 150 lbs on my own plan (high carb--I am not a diabetic). The study is conducted by Brown University and follows people who have lost a certain amount of weight and kept it off. The idea is to try to find out why we are differant. Our personal thoughts on weight loss are looked into. Here is a bit from my "paper". It is much longer, but anyone who is interested on my thoughts on the subject is welcome to email me. My advice...dont take advice from anyone unless they themselves have done it! ___________________ SELF CONTROL People expect those overweight to just have self control. But our society is built around the abuse of food. Our families are built around the abuse of food. More sympathy is doled out to cocaine abusers. Would someone expect a cocaine abuser to stop if their parents, spouse, children, and friends were all cocaine users? Of course not. You would say cut off ties with your family, divorce your spouse, ditch your kids and find new friends. While we can find new friends and get a divorce, cutting ties with our families is much harder. Yet sometimes this has to be done (at least to a point). There is no other way. People who want to lose a significant amount of weight may have to be willing to do this. Would you expect them to stop if at Christmas, New Years, Easter, and all other holidays they were given a gift of cocaine? No. You would say reject the gifts. This has to be done. Whether people's feelings are hurt or not. Would you expect them to stop if they were told by their employer to organize cocaine parties? No. You would say find a new employer. This may have to be done. Would you expect them to stop if they were invited to dinner by "supportive" friends and then served cocaine? No. You would say get rid of your friends. The truth is that for those who want to be healthy, they may have to give up their friends, change employers, or even cut off ties with family (or spend less time with them). It means rejecting gifts. It means refusing to participate in office parties and family get togethers. This is the price since in most cases family and friends are not willing to change their own habits. SUPPORT Family and friends often say they are supportive. But supportive is not saying "I can tell you have lost weight". First off, this means nothing since most of us have learned years ago that people lie in order to not make others feel bad. Supportive is not giving gifts of food... supportive is not pressuring someone to eat fat-- "it's a holiday"... supportive is not bringing unhealthy food into the home... supportive is not expecting the person losing weight to have to cook two different meals... supportive is not targeting the individual in the home as the one causing the family to "suffer"... If others are not willing to make this sacrifice, the chances of success are almost 0%. CONTACT WITH FOOD ABUSERS This is to me the hardest part of losing weight (and keeping it off). A drug addict cannot socialize with other drug abusers...if they want to get well. Someone who abuses food cannot be around others who abuse food. It is assumed that thin people eat healthy. That is not true. There are many thin people who abuse food but because of a high metabolism are not overweight. Someone who is trying not to abuse food can, in fact, be around heavy people...if these individuals eat healthy. Likewise, they cannot be around thin people who eat poorly. > ___________________ > SELF CONTROL > More sympathy is doled out to cocaine abusers. Getting gifts of candy, cake and other junk food has been a problem. Even when you ask people NOT to bring you a gift at all. They feel compelled to anyway. It's a nice thought. After they leave you just give it to a thin neighbor or drop it in the trash can. I don't feel compelled to EAT any foodstuffs I get as gifts. LW Re-Start - 7/5/06 - 170lbs Today - 158 lbs Goal - 130 lbs Height: 5'6" Age: 61 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Getting gifts of candy, cake and other junk food has been a problem. Even > when you ask people NOT to bring you a gift at all. They feel compelled to > anyway. It's a nice thought. After they leave you just give it to a thin > neighbor or drop it in the trash can. I don't feel compelled to EAT any > foodstuffs I get as gifts. _____________ Actually, I dont consider it to be a nice thought at all. If someone is an alcoholic, is it "nice" to buy them a case of beer for their bday? >> Getting gifts of candy, cake and other junk food has been a problem. >> Even [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > If someone is an alcoholic, is it "nice" to buy them a case of beer for > their bday? They don't realize overeating is an addiction for some people. They can't understand that some people can't eat 1 or 2 chocolates but will consume the whole box in one or two sittings. LW Re-Start - 7/5/06 - 170lbs Today - 158 lbs Goal - 130 lbs Height: 5'6" Age: 61 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > They don't realize overeating is an addiction for some people. They can't > understand that some people can't eat 1 or 2 chocolates but will consume the > whole box in one or two sittings. ______________ Throw out their gift in front of them, then perhaps they will get the message. People just have to be forward, "do not give me gifts of food. I will not accept it". I would never pass on unhealthy food to anyone--thin or otherwise. It belongs in the trash. Eating healthy is the goal...not a certain weight. A thin person who eats garbage may be more socially acceptable, but it is still garbage. The best thing to do for so-called "gifts" is to hand it back to the person. If they are offended, then they are offended. But unless a person makes a stand, the problem will continue. If it does continue, then cut off the friendship because it isnt one. >I would never pass on unhealthy food to anyone--thin or otherwise. It >belongs in the trash. Eating healthy is the goal...not a certain [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >person makes a stand, the problem will continue. If it does continue, >then cut off the friendship because it isnt one. What is particularly offensive is when the obese mothers turn their cute young little children into ugly waddling porkers. I've seen some as young as 3,4,5 so fat they could no longer run and play like normal children. And they are often stiffing food into their mouth almost constantly. There should be a severe child abuse punishment for the ones that commit this atrocity. Terri > What is particularly offensive is when the obese mothers turn their > cute young little children into ugly waddling porkers. I've seen [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > There should be a severe child abuse punishment for the ones that > commit this atrocity. I've seen a few kids like this lately. To some extent, I'm sure it's genetic for some of these kids, but it should be struggled with for both the parents and the children. When a 3-year-old's body is is wide as it is long, something is wrong, and it's handicapping the child's physical development not to deal with it. > I've seen a few kids like this lately. To some extent, I'm sure it's > genetic for some of these kids, but it should be struggled with for both > the parents and the children. When a 3-year-old's body is is wide as it is > long, something is wrong, and it's handicapping the child's physical > development not to deal with it. When I was growing up in a large northeast city in the late 40s and 50s, the children were not fat, no less obese. On my street there was only one chubby boy. The rest of us were thin to average. We played outside instead of watching TV and playing on Computers. We played tag, jumped rope, climbed trees, swam in the city pool, rode our bikes and skates. Snacks in my house were fruit or a hard boiled egg with a sprinkle of salt and pepper. We got an occasional cookie or string of rock-candy. Soda, cakes and pies were for holidays only. Life today is very different for so many children. They're not encouraged to go out and play. Their homes are full of junk food which the parents are also gobbling up. Parents buy them grease laden super-sized Fast-Food meals not fit for swine to eat. The child is eating more calories in a day than my generation ate in 2 or 3 days. Children are showing Adult Onset Diabetes before they reach their teens now...... it's a sad situation. LW Re-Start - 7/5/06 - 170lbs Today - 158 lbs Goal - 130 lbs Height: 5'6" Age: 61 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > What is particularly offensive is when the obese mothers turn their > cute young little children into ugly waddling porkers. I've seen > some as young as 3,4,5 so fat they could no longer run and play like > normal children. And they are often stiffing food into their mouth > almost constantly. ____________ The size of the child has nothing to do with it. The majority of our society eat unhealthy. Their are plenty of thin parents with thin children who feed their kids unhealthy food. Don't assume otherwise. >> What is particularly offensive is when the obese mothers turn their >> cute young little children into ugly waddling porkers. I've seen [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Their are plenty of thin parents with thin children who feed their kids >unhealthy food. Don't assume otherwise. It is not simply of matter as to which foods are the most healthful. It is a matter of the kids eating far too much food with the participation and encouragement of the obese parents. Caloric intake far too high. I live in an area that has a lot of immigrant Latino residents. It appears to be a cultural thing with them. When they are out in the malls, shopping centers, markets, or even walking pass a food stand they seem to be irresistibly obligated to buy food for them selves and all the kids. So often when I see the Latino kids with or without parents they appear to be constantly feeding. Grazing in the grocery by the kids is also tolerated by the parents. That, in itself, is a form of shoplifting. When I was young eating between meals was flatly prohibited by most parents. In my house we did not eat between meals as my mother would proclaim "Don't eat now, you are going to ruin your supper!". We were sometimes permitted a small snack in the evening several hours after dinner. Obesity among the kids was not common. The amount of concentrated sweets was very limited as compared to today. Cakes, pies and ice cream were entrees for parties and special occasions. Terri > We were sometimes permitted a small snack in the evening several > hours after dinner. Obesity among the kids was not common. > The amount of concentrated sweets was very limited as compared to > today. Cakes, pies and ice cream were entrees for parties and special > occasions. For a Type 1 diabetic child, we've got her on six meals a day: three real meals, 3 smaller snacks, to make sure she gets enough food, doesn't get really hungry or crash between meals, and because a morning snack, an afternoon snack, and a bedtime snack seems pretty reasonable for a small person burning those kinds of caloris. (The kid's a quarter my body mass and eating 3/4 as many calories, and she's still quite slender: all kids that age are flaming infernos of metabolism.) > It is not simply of matter as to which foods are the most healthful. > It is a matter of the kids eating far too much food with the > participation and encouragement of the obese parents. Caloric intake > far too high. ________________ I disagree. It IS a matter of which foods are the most healthy. And there are plenty of thin parents who have bad eating habits and abuse their chidren. You are assuming that bad eating habits is just the case with overweight parents. There are plenty of thin alcoholics who abuse their kids. ** Grazing in the grocery > by the kids is also tolerated by the parents. That, in itself, is a > form of shoplifting. __________ I believe it is shoplifting and not an issue of food per se. It is stealing. I have seen plenty of people (thin and otherwise) eat food in the grocery store before paying. I was taught that is wrong and theft. >> What is particularly offensive is when the obese mothers turn their >> cute young little children into ugly waddling porkers. I've seen [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Their are plenty of thin parents with thin children who feed their kids > unhealthy food. Don't assume otherwise. "Eat unhealthy" is one problem. "Get given way too much food" is a different problem, and its effects are pretty immediate. > "Eat unhealthy" is one problem. "Get given way too much food" is a different > problem, and its effects are pretty immediate. ________________ If a child eats 3 bowls of grapes you will not see any immediate issues. After losing 150 lbs, I can honestly say that I eat a whole lot more than I used to--but what I eat is differant. I also was willing to get rid of friends and cut off contact with some family. Some family I have contact with, but I never go to family events. Nor do I eat with anyone who eats unhealthy (even if they are thin). >> "Eat unhealthy" is one problem. "Get given way too much food" is a >> different [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > events. Nor do I eat with anyone who eats unhealthy (even if they are > thin). That's terrible. You can't control what others choose to eat, only what you yourself choose to eat. Eat what you like and live and let live. Cutting off family and friends because you don't like what they eat is controlling, passive-aggressive behavior. SignatureBest Regards, Evelyn (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox') > >> "Eat unhealthy" is one problem. "Get given way too much food" is a > >> different [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Cutting off family and friends because you don't like what they eat is > controlling, passive-aggressive behavior. http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/565dcf43b835714d? May GOD heal your heart, dear Evelyn Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love, Andrew B. Chung Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit Try this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060196823/002-8594840-2555223?v=glance&n=283155 > That's terrible. You can't control what others choose to eat, only what > you yourself choose to eat. Eat what you like and live and let live. > Cutting off family and friends because you don't like what they eat is > controlling, passive-aggressive behavior. You don't have any kids, do you? We parents control it directly (by putting it on the plate) and indirectly (by encouragement and by example). Thin people in deep denial, of their sadistic judgements of others who don't appeal to their rediculously high standards. > Thin people in deep denial, of their sadistic judgements of others who > don't appeal to their rediculously high standards. I gather you think your health is no one's concern, including your own. >> Thin people in deep denial, of their sadistic judgements of others who >> don't appeal to their rediculously high standards. > >I gather you think your health is no one's concern, including your own. Any time you post anything on obesity you will create some controversy. I do know it is a cash cow for a lot of "merchants" now. Please understand that Mona lost a good friend with infection from a stomach operation. He said he could not lose weight but I noted he ate at least five times what I consumed at a meal. He did a few nominal things with food It is not easy for anyone. I have to watch carefully all of the time. Exceptions are fairly rare. WE are here to offer honest opinions but we can not forces our opinion on anyone. > >> Thin people in deep denial, of their sadistic judgements of others who > >> don't appeal to their rediculously high standards. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I noted he ate at least five times > what I consumed at a meal. It is how he dealt with feeling hungry. He was so scared of it that he did everything possible to drive it far away. May GOD continue to heal our hearts, dear friend Guy whom I love unconditionally. Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies (Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17). http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/d3b7b57d0fbf89ed? > May GOD continue to heal our hearts, dear friend Guy whom I love > unconditionally. Right. It's important to state repeatedly that you "love" people "unconditionally", so that they will accept (1) your religious claptrap and (2) your diet nonsense. Please don't tell ME you "love" me "unconditionally". I don't want your love, and I don't accept your so-called deity. Moreover, I have no use for your diet nonsense. >> May GOD continue to heal our hearts, dear friend Guy whom I love >> unconditionally. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >your love, and I don't accept your so-called deity. Moreover, I have no >use for your diet nonsense. So why respond to him? The guy is not sane, don't waste your time. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. >> Please don't tell ME you "love" me "unconditionally". I don't want >> your love, and I don't accept your so-called deity. Moreover, I have no >> use for your diet nonsense. > > So why respond to him? The guy is not sane, don't waste your > time. For the same reason you waste your time responding to me. >>> Please don't tell ME you "love" me "unconditionally". I don't want >>> your love, and I don't accept your so-called deity. Moreover, I have no [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >For the same reason you waste your time responding to me. My apologies - I didn't realise that. Are you seeking treatment? :-)) Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 500mg SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. >>>> Please don't tell ME you "love" me "unconditionally". I don't want >>>> your love, and I don't accept your so-called deity. Moreover, I have no [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. >d&e, metformin 500mg Alan, I was told when I first developed diabetes that it usually leads to some mental abbe rations. Support groups should cover those areas. I was helping a fellow hiring techs. He did not hire a dialectic. He told me they become stubborn and would disrupt the lab. I am all of those in many ways. Add the bleak outlook of old age and increasing medical expenses it is hard to keep control. I Grrrrrr a lot now. Be tolerant >>>>> Please don't tell ME you "love" me "unconditionally". I don't want >>>>> your love, and I don't accept your so-called deity. Moreover, I have no [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >Be tolerant Hi Guy I think sechumlib understood that I was being facetious in my reply to him. However, Chung exceeded my tolerance threshold some time ago. If he was just a figure of fun, it would be no problem. But he's not. He is a religious zealot who promotes a ridiculous diet using his medical credentials to support it. That makes him dangerous and undermines his possibility of support. The only thing that reduces it's danger is that it is so patently silly. He occasionally posts some very intelligent advice - then destroys it with his 2PD and religious nonsense. When I first arrived here I tried to talk sensibly to Chung; I was slower than most to realise that I may as well talk to the trees. They listen better and act more intelligently. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 500mg SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. >>>>>> Please don't tell ME you "love" me "unconditionally". I don't want >>>>>> your love, and I don't accept your so-called deity. Moreover, I have no [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. >d&e, metformin 500mg He used to worry me but he overdoes it so much he is obvious. As far as religion, no one here can change any ones beliefs. . If it satisfies him let him ramble, which many of us do anyway. To get any benefit technically here we do need disagreement. Then we see a lot things sorted out. I do object strongly to the mental kids that come here to knock people without cause. They are playing some game. Each of us has a place here. As I age I do know we have a lot of learning to do. We develop a character here and it all works out fairly well. I do know I have gained by being here and I do pick your brain. And I won't pay you. I am up and losing sleep. Have to go early for an MRI. The is way it works. Take care, Guy guy to Alan S: > To get any benefit technically here we > do need disagreement. Then we see a > lot things sorted out. Listen to the man, and learn! Bob >He occasionally posts some very intelligent advice - then >destroys it with his 2PD and religious nonsense. When I >first arrived here I tried to talk sensibly to Chung; I was >slower than most to realise that I may as well talk to the >trees. They listen better and act more intelligently That was my experience, also, Alan... It did not take overly long to realize. Will, T2 > >>> Please don't tell ME you "love" me "unconditionally". I don't want > >>> your love, and I don't accept your so-called deity. Moreover, I have no [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > My apologies - I didn't realise that. Are you seeking > treatment? What for? Not agreeing with the great teacher Alan S on everything? Bob > > May GOD continue to heal our hearts, dear friend Guy whom I love > > unconditionally. > > Right. Yes. > It's important to state repeatedly that you "love" people > "unconditionally", so that they will accept (1) your religious claptrap > and (2) your diet nonsense. No. Sorry my being openly Christian bothers you so terribly. Please forgive all my iniquities. > Please don't tell ME you "love" me "unconditionally". No need because it is clear that you already know. > I don't want your love Such is unconditional love, you have it anyway and you know it. > , and I don't accept your so-called deity. Christ Jesus' love for you is unconditional too and was demonstrated when HE died on the cross for you. > Moreover, I have no use for your diet nonsense. The 2PD-OMER Approach is clearly not a diet. May GOD heal your heart, dear neighbor whom I love unconditionally. Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies (Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17). http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/d3b7b57d0fbf89ed? On 28 Aug 2006 17:10:45 -0700, in article <1156810245.439654.246570@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, >> > May GOD continue to heal our hearts, dear friend Guy whom I love >> > unconditionally. Thank you for finally phrasing that in a way which doesn't make you look like you think you're the only one on earth who is well. SignatureChrist died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead. Rely on this finished work alone for salvation (1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10). Daily devotionals Community forum Bible questions and answers Live chatting Free at www.pulpitfire.org Funny Usenet Quotes: We should think ourselves lucky, the pressure on the server when an email announcement is sent will be pretty hairy. -- Jeff Gaines (xn0eq5sx3bghim000@news.individual.net) > On 28 Aug 2006 17:10:45 -0700, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Thank you for finally phrasing that in a way which doesn't make you > look like you think you're the only one on earth who is well. sensi: At last, he got the message.. > Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead. > Rely on this finished work alone for salvation (1 Cor. 15:1-3; [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > when an email announcement is sent will be pretty hairy. > -- Jeff Gaines (xn0eq5sx3bghim000@news.individual.net) > > On 28 Aug 2006 17:10:45 -0700, > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > sensi: > At last, he got the message.. It remains my choice to continue to receive the guidance of the Holy Spirit in what I say, do, and write. May GOD heal your heart from how Vera has hurt you, dear neighbor whom I love unconditionally. Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies (Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17). http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/d3b7b57d0fbf89ed? Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD in <1156835706.442998.80760@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> on 2006-08-29 announced this statement: >> > On 28 Aug 2006 17:10:45 -0700, in article >> > <1156810245.439654.246570@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > May GOD heal your heart from how Vera has hurt you, dear > neighbor whom I love unconditionally. Ah trying to play one against the other now after Vera dropped you like a hot potato? May the Ground of all our being "God" finally start to heal your heart and soul (since you need healing like the rest of us humans desperately ) my most beloved brother Andrew.... Werner Kurator Signature========================================================== "Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by imperfect man, this one undoubtedly falls short of its goals. Yet we are grateful to God for the extent to which he has enabled us to realize these goals and for the strength he has given us and our colleagues to complete our task." Preface to the "New International Version" of the Bible June 1978 (Revised August 1983) ============================================================== "I am writing for the 'Christian agnostic,' by which I mean a person who... thought he is sure of many Christians truth, feels that he cannot honestly and conscientiously 'sign on the dotted line' that he believes certain theological ideas about what some branches of the Church dogmatize." "LESLIE D. WEATHERHEAD's thoughtful and compelling Christian writings brought him worldwide acclaim during his lifetime. His many other books include "the will of God", "The Autobiography of Jesus", "Life begins at death", "The meaning of the Cross", "Prescription for anxiety", and "time for God". Dr. Weatherhead served as the pastor of City Temple in London, England, from 1936 until 1960" == quote taken from the back-cover of his "the Christian Agnostic"... ============================================================== Iron Chef Duel! With the Iron Chefs using each other as ingedients! Who Will Win, Morimoto's Great Old One in Plum Sauce or (Incomprehensible) of the Howling Wasteland's Human with Hound of Tindalos Garnish? -- James Nicoll in RASFW > Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD in > <1156835706.442998.80760@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> on [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Ah trying to play one against the other now after Vera dropped > you like a hot potato? No. Vera needs no encouragement for me to go around brandishing a sword to injure others. She gets plenty of encouragement from Randy who is of like mind. "Those who live by the sword will die by the sword." -- LORD Jesus Christ. May GOD continue to heal your heart, dear neighbor Werner whom I love unconditionally. Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies (Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17). http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/d3b7b57d0fbf89ed? On 29 Aug 2006 17:56:22 -0700, in article <1156899382.151539.115800@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>, >"Those who live by the sword will die by the sword." -- LORD Jesus >Christ. Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: You talk constantly about being guided by the Spirit, but you don't wield the sword of the Spirit. You're trying to get by on your own brain power, then claim it's the guidance of the Spirit. SignatureChrist died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead. Rely on this finished work alone for salvation (1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10). Daily devotionals Community forum Bible questions and answers Live chatting Free at www.pulpitfire.org Funny Usenet Quotes: What do you think fog is? Fog is essentially a dense cloud of water droplets, or cloud, that is close to the ground, so don't tell me, "clouds are in the sky"...--Pastor Dave (mjrgv1pdc31bue50i4vukdlfnkg2pqbbu8@4ax.com) > Andrew wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the > Spirit, which is the word of God: It is also written: "Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place" (Ephesians 6:13-14) And, so I stand firm fully armored as my LORD's swordbearer. > You talk constantly about being guided by the Spirit, but you don't > wield the sword of the Spirit. The LORD's swordbearer does not wield the sword but instead carries HIS sword for HIM just as Simon carried a sword because my LORD commanded him to do so. > You're trying to get by on your own > brain power, then claim it's the guidance of the Spirit. There would be no victories without the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The victories are HIS. May GOD continue to heal your heart, dear neighbor Randy whom I love unconditionally. Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies (Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17). http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/d3b7b57d0fbf89ed? >> Andrew wrote: >> >> >"Those who live by the ADA will die by the Carbs." -- LORD Atkins >> Eph 6:17 And take the fat of salvation, and the taste of the >> fat, which is the word of Atkins: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> You talk constantly about being guided by the fat, but you don't >> wield the sword of the fat. Atkins swordbearer does not wield the sword but instead carries HIS > cholesterol for HIM just as Atkins carried cholesterol because my fat > commanded [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Andrew <>< if you made more posts like this Andrew you would fit in perfectly here. but of course most never use the name Atkins and may even denie it but make no mistake Atkins is what is being preeched here. Tom Hi, What really annoys me is peoples' assumption that all issues are black and white (no racist slur meant). As a Type 2 diabetic I find it amazing that people who know *nothing* about me nonetheless know: I'm obese, I'm lazy, I'm greedy and I'm in denial of these things (and several more). Until I had a serious stroke (my doctor called it minor - I'm still compos) I walked about 6 kilometres a day on average (2 to 16 km). I walked because I could and because I enjoyed it (and I wish I could still). Certainly I ate, but not greedily. I ate more than I needed to and my diet was not as well-balanced as it should have been. I expect most Type 2s can tell similar stories. I've never been obese (dictionary definition: very fat). Overweight definitely, but not much according to my GP (less than 4 kilograms - healthy fit weight about 73 to 75 kg). Type 2 diabetes does not appear to be caused by obesity (and certainly not overweight). However, both obesity (and overweight) *can* be caused by Type 2 diabetes. Type 2 diabetes can be masked by exercise - and its effects can be reduced by exercise. Most people today do not get the exercise their forebears got so their diabetes shows itself more readily. It can cause weight gain to the point of obesity (and beyond) before it is diagnosed, particularly when the subject is pretty well sedentary. I'm pretty sedentary now, though I'd rather not be. *Force majeur* prevents me getting the quantity of exercise I want, maybe need. What doesn't help at all is people telling me (on NGs, my oath) that I'm in denial! I'm not. Most of us are not. Yes, some of us refuse to accept that they need to exercise *much* more, to control their diet more tightly, etc.. But they're probably the minority. Most of us *here* are here because we're not in any kind of denial, we just want to help each other improve. Abusing any or all helps no-one, least of all the abusive poster. Take care, Phil. "Time wounds all heels." Diagnosed Type 2 December 2005 Metformin, 3 × 500 mg Gliclazide, 2 × 80 mg Simvastatin, 1 × 40 mg Aspirin, 1 × 75 mg Perindopril, 1 × 4 mg Bendroflumethazide, 1 × 2.5 mg (and a whole bunch of other stuff for other problems!) 71 kg (fairly) stable http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/diabetes.html http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/index.html > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I'm greedy and > I'm in denial of these things (and several more). Understandably, you do not like being judged by others. No one does. > Until I had a serious stroke (my doctor called it minor - I'm still compos) I walked about 6 kilometres a day on average (2 to 16 km). > I walked because I could and because I enjoyed it (and I wish I could still). I am sad to learn that you are no longer able to walk. > Certainly I ate, but not greedily. > I ate more than I needed to and my diet was not as well-balanced > as it should have been. > I expect most Type 2s can tell similar stories. All overweight people should be able to describe eating more than they needed. > I've never been obese (dictionary definition: very fat). > Overweight definitely, but not much according to my GP (less than 4 kilograms - healthy fit weight about 73 to 75 kg). Even one ounce of visceral adipose tissue is harmful. > Type 2 diabetes does not appear to be caused by obesity (and certainly not overweight). It is caused by years of metabolic syndrome (MetS) which is caused by the cytokines from visceral adipose tissue. > However, both obesity (and overweight) *can* be caused by Type 2 diabetes. Actually, obesity and being overweight is caused exclusively by overeating. > Type 2 diabetes can be masked by exercise - and its effects can be reduced by exercise. Correct. > Most people today do not get the exercise their forebears got so their diabetes shows itself more readily. They also overeat more than their forebears. > It can cause weight gain to the point of obesity (and beyond) before it is diagnosed, particularly when the subject is pretty well sedentary. In truth, the weight gain is exclusively from overeating. > I'm pretty sedentary now, though I'd rather not be. Understandably. > *Force majeur* prevents me getting the quantity of exercise I want, maybe need. Thankfully, you can still choose to eat less by using the diabetic 2PD-OMER Approach with doctor supervision. > What doesn't help at all is people telling me (on NGs, my oath) that I'm in denial! You won't read it from me. > I'm not. Glad to read this. > Most of us are not. I know. > Yes, some of us refuse to accept that they need to exercise *much* more, to control their diet more tightly, etc.. Actually, "eat right and exercise" is a false mantra when it comes to helping people lose weight. > But they're probably the minority. > Most of us *here* are here because we're not in any kind of denial, we just want to help each other improve. > Abusing any or all helps no-one, least of all the abusive poster. Though I take abuse, you will not find me giving it. Such is the healing power of GOD's love in my heart. > Take care, > Phil. May GOD continue to heal our hearts, dear friend Phil whom I love unconditionally. Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies (Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17). http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/d3b7b57d0fbf89ed? P.S. The thiazide diuretic is unwise in a type-2 diabetic. Would suggest you ask your doctor(s) to switch you to something else. >I'm pretty sedentary now, though I'd rather not be. >*Force majeur* prevents me getting the quantity of exercise I want, maybe need. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/diabetes.html >http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/index.html God bless you, Phil You are a genuine human being... Would that there were more like you. You have real understanding on a level that not everyone attains. Will,T2 > Type 2 diabetes does not appear to be caused by obesity (and certainly not overweight). > However, both obesity (and overweight) *can* be caused by Type 2 diabetes. > > Type 2 diabetes can be masked by exercise - and its effects can be reduced by exercise. > Most people today do not get the exercise their forebears got so their diabetes shows itself more readily. > It can cause weight gain to the point of obesity (and beyond) before it is diagnosed, particularly when the subject is pretty well sedentary. How is it that the media is spilling over with countless reports about obesity being a significant factor in developing T2 and you refuse to believe that fact? Denial never cured one person of any type of disease, especially diabetes. I agree with the other statements about many people aren't getting the type of exercise that earlier generations got. Dave >How is it that the media is spilling over with countless reports about >obesity being a significant factor in developing T2 and you refuse to >believe that fact? Hi Dave, I'm sorry, but I did not take Phil's post that way... Yes, there does seem to be some correlation between T2 diabetes and being overweight, at least for many, but I do not think that fact, taken alone, establishes a causative relationship. The fatness could just as well be a symptom of an underlying problem... I used to be a little plump myself, but I do not think the plumpness necessarily caused the diabetes, although it may have contributed to hasten the onset.... There are subtlies of difference in many individual case histories, I think. Not everyone who is "fat" or overwieght gets T2 diabetes, and many T2 diabetics are skinny at diagnosis. Just my own $.02 On a personal note, I hope you and Mary have been having a really good summer out there in CA... We are bracing for what may be a minor hurricane over our way this week. Will, T2 Hi, Anecdotal evidence is not *scientific* evidence. At no point have I said that Type 2 diabetes has no connection with weight. But it only needs *one* Type 2 diabetic who has never been overweight to dispel the myth that overweight causes it. There are many more than that (I know at least one). The problem, common in anecdotal 'proofs', is putting the cart before the horse. It's simple. Type 2 diabetes often, even usually, causes weight problems - sometimes severe ones (I'm lucky not to have them.) That the diabetes (or insulin resistance) was there *before* the weight problem is often ignored. Diagnosis is rarely (if ever) soon after development. The sufferer is usually already overweight. Ergo, overweight *must* be the cause! Propagating that myth helps no-one. Accusing diabetics of being 'in denial' is illogical, even stupid. Neither politicians nor journalists are medical professionals - let alone medical researchers. Research into Type 2 diabetes has not yet reached many firm conclusions. Neither journalists nor politicians *can* refer to research conclusions, only anecdote. Unfortunately people take that for fact. If you want an equally valid anecdotal theory, look at the effect of Type 2 diabetes. It compromises the control of sugars in the system. Storing sugars produces fat. Storing large amounts of excess sugar as fat makes the diabetic overweight. It's just a very simplistic theory, I'm not actually proposing anything. But it makes just as much sense as the (disproven) theory that overweight causes Type 2 diabetes. Take care, Phil. "Nature and Nature's Laws lay hid in Night. God said, Let Newton be! and all was Light." Diagnosed Type 2 December 2005 Metformin, 3 × 500 mg Gliclazide, 2 × 80 mg Simvastatin, 1 × 40 mg Aspirin, 1 × 75 mg Perindopril, 1 × 4 mg Bendroflumethazide, 1 × 2.5 mg (and a whole bunch of other stuff for other problems!) 71 kg (fairly) stables http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/diabetes.html http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/index.html >Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Propagating that myth helps no-one. >Accusing diabetics of being 'in denial' is illogical, even stupid. Hi Phil, In my case, I know genetics was a factor. Also, I suspect daily exposure to Agent Orange in 1972 had something to do with my getting T2 diabetes. There is little way of knowing what else may have been involved. Denial does not cause diabetes, I submit, although in some it can cause a certain slowness to recognize the symptoms and/or deal with the limitations it imposes on one's life. Will, T2 Hi Will, Denial of the blindingly obvious usually causes problems, often severe ones. But the blindingly obvious can also be wrong. To deny that I have diabetes would be very silly as I do have it. It would not be silly for someone who does not have diabetes to deny having it. It would be sensible. To deny that (Type 2) diabetes is a serious problem would itself be a serious problem, especially for a diabetic. To deny that it is caused by overweight before the evidence was in would have been as stupid as believing it. Denying it now the evidence is in is more sensible than denying the evidence. It is unlikely that any genetic evidence could be found for my diabetes - but it's probably there. As it's a condition rather than a disease it is probably a genetic flaw that shows up more now. Peoples' habits have changed dramatically over the last fifty years, particularly their exercise habits. All my forbears have been physically active, as I was. This activity probably cloaked the condition in them. It only reared its ugly head in my case after 5 years of comparative inactivity. I'm dealing with it slowly - slowly because exercise is still very difficult. But I *am* coping! I hope you are too. Take care, Phil. "Time wounds all heels." Diagnosed Type 2 December 2005 Metformin, 3 × 500 mg Gliclazide, 2 × 80 mg Simvastatin, 1 × 40 mg Aspirin, 1 × 75 mg Perindopril, 1 × 4 mg Bendroflumethazide, 1 × 2.5 mg (and a whole bunch of other stuff for other problems!) 71 kg (fairly) stable http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/diabetes.html http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/index.html > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > But it only needs *one* Type 2 diabetic who has never been overweight to dispel the myth that overweight causes it. > There are many more than that (I know at least one). There is not one insulin-resistant individual who does not have excess visceral adipose tissue (VAT) that arises from overeating. "In both gender groups, insulin-resistant subjects are characterized by higher visceral adipose tissue (VAT) compared to insulin-sensitive subjects." Source: http://tinyurl.com/ltfph " Visceral adipose tissue and tumor necrosis factor alpha were the only predictors of calculated insulin resistance ( P < .05), explaining 43% of the variability. A typically prescribed weight loss program with lifestyle changes resulted in few changes in adipocytokines and inflammatory cytokines in older women with type 2 diabetes, suggesting that dramatic weight loss or clinical interventions are needed." Source: http://tinyurl.com/nds83 "We conclude that insulin sensitivity is strongly related to visceral adipose tissue accumulation in NIDDM." Source: http://tinyurl.com/o585y In light of the scientific evidence, would suggest you ask your doctor to supervise your use of the diabetic 2PD-OMER Approach in order to safely lose your VAT permanently to possibly cure your type-2 diabetes. May GOD heal your heart by curing your type-2 diabetes, dear neighbor Phil whom I love unconditionally. Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies (Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17). http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/d3b7b57d0fbf89ed? Hi, Mr Chung, it seems you did not read my post properly. I did not say that any insulin-resistant person didn't have excess visceral adipose tissue. I said "At no point have I said that Type 2 diabetes has no connection with weight." I also said "But it only needs *one* Type 2 diabetic who has never been overweight to dispel the myth that overweight causes it." So I did say that weight (i.e. overweight) was not the *cause* of Type 2 diabetes. This has little (maybe nothing) to do with *treatment*. But I do indeed thank you for your good wishes, and I wish you the best too. As Dave Allen famously said, "May your god go with you." Take care, Phil. "Time wounds all heels." Diagnosed Type 2 December 2005 Metformin, 3 × 500 mg Gliclazide, 2 × 80 mg Simvastatin, 1 × 40 mg Aspirin, 1 × 75 mg Perindopril, 1 × 4 mg Bendroflumethazide, 1 × 2.5 mg (and a whole bunch of other stuff for other problems!) 71 kg (fairly) stable http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/diabetes.html http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/index.html > Hi, > > Mr Chung, it seems you did not read my post properly. Actually, I did. > I did not say that any insulin-resistant person didn't have excess visceral adipose tissue. I did not write that you did. > I said "At no point have I said that Type 2 diabetes has no connection with weight." > I also said "But it only needs *one* Type 2 diabetic who has never been overweight to dispel the myth that overweight causes it." That is what you have written. > So I did say that weight (i.e. overweight) was not the *cause* of Type 2 diabetes. Yes, your writing this was misleading because for some people pathological amounts of visceral adipose tissue accumulate **before** they are overweight and for others this occurs **after** they are overweight. In either case, there has been overeating. May GOD continue to heal your heart by healing your type-2 diabetes, dear neighbor Phil whom I love uncondionally. Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies (Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17). http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/d3b7b57d0fbf89ed? Hi, Mr Chung, it *does* seem you didn't read my post properly. It may be as you say about visceral adipose tissue *but* that may have nothing whatever to do with the causes of insulin-resistant diabetes. People may well have been overeating but they may well have been overeating *because* they were diabetic, not the other way round. Treating effects is one thing. Research into causes is quite another. My post was about causes. Take care, Phil. "Implet in the Corn and High, Terror me Motoris Bi. Et complebat omne forum, Copia Motorum Borum. How shall Fellows live like us, Cincti Bis Motoribus? Domine, defende nos, Contra Hos Motores Bos." Diagnosed Type 2 December 2005 Metformin, 3 × 500 mg Gliclazide, 2 × 80 mg Simvastatin, 1 × 40 mg Aspirin, 1 × 75 mg Perindopril, 1 × 4 mg Bendroflumethazide, 1 × 2.5 mg (and a whole bunch of other stuff for other problems!) 71 kg (fairly) stable http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/diabetes.html http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/index.html > Hi, > > Mr Chung, it *does* seem you didn't read my post properly. So far there has been no indication of a misunderstanding. > It may be as you say about visceral adipose tissue *but* that may have nothing whatever to do with the causes of insulin-resistant diabetes. There is accumulating evidence that visceral adipose tissue (VAT) is the proximate cause of metabolic syndrome (MetS) which many regard as the prerequisite underlying condition that leads to the development of type-2 diabetes over the time-course of 5-10 years. May GOD continue to heal your heart, dear neighbor Phil whom I love unconditionally. Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies (Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17). http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/d3b7b57d0fbf89ed? Hi, Mr Chung, you *still* haven't understood. At no point have I disagreed with you, I have merely said that overweight is an effect of insulin resistance - not a cause. You post references that do not address this but imply that I disagree with diagnosis and/or treatment. I am not qualified to disagree with these things - or agree with them either. I am not contending that your philosophy on treatment and diagnosis is wrong. My only contention here is the research finding that overweight does not *cause* Type 2 diabetes. Research into the causes of insulin-resistant diabetes (Type 2) is continuing but there is no consensus yet. It is now certain that overweight *isn't* the cause. The fatty tissues and overeating you refer to are probably a symptom. The root cause is neither the fatty tissue nor the overeating (the latter often a behavioural problem which, equally often, does not lead to diabetes). The *cause* leads to the overeating and fatty tissue. As well as being a firm research finding this makes sense. Take care, Phil. "I know you believe you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realise that what you heard was not what I meant." Diagnosed Type 2 December 2005 Metformin, 3 × 500 mg Gliclazide, 2 × 80 mg Simvastatin, 1 × 40 mg Aspirin, 1 × 75 mg Perindopril, 1 × 4 mg Bendroflumethazide, 1 × 2.5 mg (and a whole bunch of other stuff for other problems!) 71 kg (fairly) stable http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/diabetes.html http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/index.html > Hi, > > Mr Chung, you *still* haven't understood. Actually, I have though there is disagreement. > At no point have I disagreed with you, I have merely said that overweight is an effect of insulin resistance - not a cause. What you write is in disgreement with the fact that visceral adipose tissue (VAT) is the proximate cause of insulin resistance and not the other way around. May GOD continue to heal your heart, dear neighbor Phil whom I love unconditionally. Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies (Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17). http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/d3b7b57d0fbf89ed? Hi, Mr Chung, you say that "visceral adipose tissue (VAT) is the proximate cause of insulin resistance and not the other way around." If that were the case insulin-resistance would be far more common than it is. Certainly it's far too common, but there are many overweight people who are *not* insulin-resistant, far too many for overweight to be the cause of it. Take care, Phil. "Time wounds all heels." Diagnosed Type 2 December 2005 Metformin, 3 × 500 mg Gliclazide, 2 × 80 mg Simvastatin, 1 × 40 mg Aspirin, 1 × 75 mg Perindopril, 1 × 4 mg Bendroflumethazide, 1 × 2.5 mg (and a whole bunch of other stuff for other problems!) 71 kg (fairly) stable http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/diabetes.html http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/index.html > Hi, > > Mr Chung, you say that "visceral adipose tissue (VAT) is the proximate cause of insulin resistance and not the other way around." > > If that were the case insulin-resistance would be far more common than it is. It is far more common than people are aware. > Certainly it's far too common, but there are many overweight people who are *not* insulin-resistant, far too many for overweight to be the cause of it. Some folks who are obviously overweight have plenty of subcutaneous adipose tissue (SAT) without much VAT. Jennifer Lopez would be a notable example. The slender waistline is the key to knowing that there is not much VAT. May GOD continue to heal your heart, dear neighbor Phil whom I love unconditionally. Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies (Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17). http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/d3b7b57d0fbf89ed? Hi, Mr Chung, this seems much more logical. But insulin-resistance is not, by this logic, caused by either overweight or overeating. Rather it is a result of the mechanism that produces excess VAT in some but SAT in others. This would explain many of the apparent discrepancies between the many who are insulin-resistant. In particular it would explain the few who have never apparently been overweight. By this logic, the overeating would still be a symptom, *not* a cause, ditto excessive hunger. Equally intelligent dieting, though it may help (it usually does), will only improve the situation, it won't solve the problem. But research continues! And I do agree that insulin-resistance is almost certainly far more common than most believe. Incidentally, I'm not condoning anything more than very mild overweight caused by overeating - most of us like bangers and mash occasionally! Overweight with medical causes has to be a different matter, and should be treated so. And I am personally aware of the problems insufficient exercise brings. Thank you for your advice on my medication. It may be relevant that I have had a number of TIAs (a hereditary problem), though only the one about 6 years ago was serious. I still have mild mobility problems but the blood pressure is pretty much under control now. Take care, Phil. "Time wounds all heels." Diagnosed Type 2 December 2005 Metformin, 3 × 500 mg Gliclazide, 2 × 80 mg Simvastatin, 1 × 40 mg Aspirin, 1 × 75 mg Perindopril, 1 × 4 mg Bendroflumethazide, 1 × 2.5 mg (and a whole bunch of other stuff for other problems!) 71 kg (fairly) stable http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/diabetes.html http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/index.html > Hi, > > Mr Chung, this seems much more logical. The logic has stayed the same though perhaps your understanding is increasing. > But insulin-resistance is not, by this logic, caused by either overweight or overeating. > Rather it is a result of the mechanism that produces excess VAT in some but SAT in others. Neither VAT nor SAT happen without overeating. Overeating is the proximate cause of both. > This would explain many of the apparent discrepancies between the many who are insulin-resistant. > In particular it would explain the few who have never apparently been overweight. These few would still be heavier that their optimal even if but by a few pounds of VAT. > By this logic, the overeating would still be a symptom, *not* a cause, ditto excessive hunger. Incorrect. See above. > Equally intelligent dieting, though it may help (it usually does), will only improve the situation, it won't solve the problem. Eating less down to the right amount solves the problem: http://HeartMDPhD.com/wtloss.asp > But research continues! Done already. > And I do agree that insulin-resistance is almost certainly far more common than most believe. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Thank you for your advice on my medication. You are welcome. All thanks and praises belong to GOD Whom I love with all my being. > It may be relevant that I have had a number of TIAs (a hereditary problem), though only the one about 6 years ago was serious. > I still have mild mobility problems but the blood pressure is pretty much under control now. May GOD continue to heal your heart, dear neighbor Phil whom I love unconditionally. Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit Hi, Mr Chung, I didn't say that the logic had changed - but it hadn't been explained to me before. Equally I didn't say that either VAT or SAT occurred without overeating. But I *did* say that overeating is a symptom, not the cause - and you have not actually addressed this. You have merely said that overeating is the cause. If overeating were the cause people with high levels of SAT would be insulin-resistant as they overeat. But it is only those with excessive levels of VAT. Since both overeat and are often overweight (pretty well by definition) there *must* be a reason only those with VAT develop insulin-resistance. Ergo, neither overweight nor overeating are causes! In fact it seems that the cause of insulin-resistance may actually trigger the overeating that is a symptom of it. It's also reasonable to suppose that the actual cause of excessive VAT is the cause of insulin-resistance. It is a myth that insulin-resistant people are overeaters *_of_choice_* and that the overeating causes the insulin-resistance. Causes and symptoms have been confused - and it has happened often before. Certainly careful dieting is necessary for us if only to treat the symptoms and their other effects. Exercise, where possible, is also highly beneficial. But neither of these can *cure* insulin-resistant diabetes. Take care, Phil. "The difference between Science and the fuzzy subjects is that Science requires reasoning, while the other subjects merely require scholarship." Diagnosed Type 2 December 2005 Metformin, 3 × 500 mg Gliclazide, 2 × 80 mg Simvastatin, 1 × 40 mg Aspirin, 1 × 75 mg Perindopril, 1 × 4 mg Bendroflumethazide, 1 × 2.5 mg (and a whole bunch of other stuff for other problems!) 71 kg (fairly) stable http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/diabetes.html http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/index.html > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/diabetes.html > http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/index.html And of course, having most modern processed foods loaded with sugars and hfcs can't be ignored as a possible, if not probable, cause of VAT, obesity and Diabetes T2. TC Hi TC, You may well be right, but I think they just exacerbate the problem (maybe greatly). Their effects on insulin-resistant diabetes need to be examined. Take care, Phil. "Religion is the masterpiece of the art of animal training, for it trains people as to how they shall think." http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/diabetes.html http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/index.html > Hi, > > Mr Chung, I didn't say that the logic had changed - but it hadn't been explained to me before. Hopefully, your understanding will continue to improve. > Equally I didn't say that either VAT or SAT occurred without overeating. > > But I *did* say that overeating is a symptom, not the cause Yes, you did write this erroneously. In truth, overeating is not a symptom but a reaction. The symptom that compels some folks to overeat is hunger. How folks react to hunger depends on their level of enlightenment. The unenlightened overeat while the enlightened count themselves blessed when they are hungry. In truth, hunger is a healthy appetite. Loss of appetite or anorexia is also a symptom. Unlike hunger, anorexia is symptom that indicates there is a problem (cancer, AIDS, tuberculosis, et cetera). > - and you have not actually addressed this. Actually, I have but now you have it again. > You have merely said that overeating is the cause. I have written extensively about hunger being a healthy appetite that compels some folks (those who remain brainwashed to fear hunger) to overeat. This can be easily found by searching the Google archives. > If overeating were the cause people with high levels of SAT would be insulin-resistant as they overeat. No. SAT does not make the inflammatory cytokines that cause insulin resistance. > But it is only those with excessive levels of VAT. Yes. VAT does make the inflammatory cytokines that cause insulin resistance. > Since both overeat and are often overweight (pretty well by definition) there *must* be a reason only those with VAT develop insulin-resistance. It is GOD's will that VAT and not SAT makes the inflammatory cytokines that cause insulin resistance. > Ergo, neither overweight nor overeating are causes! The proximate cause of VAT is overeating. There would be absolutely no VAT if there were no overeating. > In fact it seems that the cause of insulin-resistance may actually trigger the overeating that is a symptom of it. Incorrect. People's issues with being hungry is what causes people to overeat. > It's also reasonable to suppose that the actual cause of excessive VAT is the cause of insulin-resistance. The proximate cause of insulin resistance is the VAT. > It is a myth that insulin-resistant people are overeaters *_of_choice_* and that the overeating causes the insulin-resistance. It has been clinically proven. > Causes and symptoms have been confused - and it has happened often before. Not here. > Certainly careful dieting is necessary for us if only to treat the symptoms and their other effects. > Exercise, where possible, is also highly beneficial. VAT disappears only when folks eat less. > But neither of these can *cure* insulin-resistant diabetes. Getting rid of VAT either by gastic bypass surgery or using the diabetic 2PD-OMER Approach has already cured many of type-2 diabetes. May GOD continue to heal your heart, dear neighbor Phil whom I love unconditionally. Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies (Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17). http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/d3b7b57d0fbf89ed? Hi, Mr Chung, I didn't expect you to agree. Your religious beliefs are, of course, your own and I believe you have a right to them. I even respect them. Mine differ, and I disagree with yours (personally, just personally). So let us agree to differ and carry on our respective lives with neither of us hurt. Take care, Phil. "Religion is a man using a divining rod. Philosophy is a man using a pick and shovel." http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/diabetes.html http://uk.geocities.com/philadkinsp/index.html > Hi, > > Mr Chung, I didn't expect you to agree. There has been no argument. GOD's purpose for me here remains to inform and not to either argue or convince. > Your religious beliefs are, of course, your own and I believe you have a right to them. > I even respect them. In truth, I am not religious just as my LORD is not religious. > Mine differ, and I disagree with yours (personally, just personally). Your choice made through GOD's generous gift of free will given to all souls. > So let us agree to differ and carry on our respective lives with neither of us hurt. If you hold the religious belief that you should continue to overeat, your being hurt will be more related to your own religious beliefs and not to our differences. May GOD continue to heal your heart, dear neighbor Phil whom I love unconditionally. Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies (Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17). http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/d3b7b57d0fbf89ed? > I said "At no point have I said that Type 2 diabetes has no connection with weight." > I also said "But it only needs *one* Type 2 diabetic who has never been overweight to dispel the myth that overweight causes it." <Waves> I have never been overweight in my life - but ended up as a Type II diabetic (my mother is also type II as is her brother). BTW - this guy isn't worth arguing with - he tries even my patience.. Phil SignaturePhil Launchbury, IT PHB Triumph Tiger 955i 'I'm training the bats that live in my cube to juggle mushrooms' Hi Terri, I understand where you are coming from - but did you ever stop and think maybe the parents don't realize what they are doing? My mom was always extremely heavy - she had many stillbirths and miscarrages before giving birth to me. I was an 11 pound 15 ounce baby! (or a little piggy as I call myself) but in my mother's eye's I was perfect. I do take offense to you referring to heavy children as "ugly waddling porkers" - the children are still miracles regardless of their weight. Please don't be cruel to prove your point - especially when it comes to innocent chilren. >>I would never pass on unhealthy food to anyone--thin or otherwise. It >>belongs in the trash. Eating healthy is the goal...not a certain [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Terri SignatureThanks Ruthie A cure for Diabetes is in sight! Bush needs to allow more Stem Cell Research - he is killing us! > Hi Terri, > I understand where you are coming from - but did you ever stop and think > maybe the parents don't realize what they are doing? My mom was always > extremely heavy - she had many stillbirths and miscarrages before giving > birth to me. I was an 11 pound 15 ounce baby! Your Mum quite likely had at least gestational diabetes then : ( Nicky. SignatureA1c 10.5/5.3/<6 T2 DX 05/2004 No Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine 95/72/72Kg |
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