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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / May 2006

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Soluble fibre and LDL

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Quentin Grady - 27 May 2006 07:27 GMT
G'day G'day Folks,

In the study described below some statin was replaced with psyllium, a
good source of soluble fibre.  Interestingly enough they didn't test
out replacing all the statin with soluble fibre.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/505588_print

Medscape requires a registration but it is free and they are well
behaved.

Best wishes,
Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Uncle Enrico - 27 May 2006 15:38 GMT
My cholesterol numbers have improved dramatically as I lost weight by
increasing green vegetables, soy, flax and beans in my diet.

Here's a link to Dr. Sheldon Gottlieb's "Greens, Beans and Leans" diet .
Gottlieb is a cardiologist and contributor to DLife. This diet takes
awhile...so be patient.

By the way, Gottlieb is correct when he says that your body will adjust to
the increased fiber where "gas"  is concerned.

http://www.greensbeansandleans.com/

The diet is a pdf file. The site contains a link to get a free download of
Adobe Reader if you need it.

> G'day G'day Folks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Best wishes,
Quentin Grady - 30 May 2006 07:28 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On Sat, 27 May 2006 14:38:10 GMT, "Uncle Enrico" <Uncle@nospam.com>
wrote:

>My cholesterol numbers have improved dramatically as I lost weight by
>increasing green vegetables, soy, flax and beans in my diet.

G'day G'day Uncle Enrico,

 They sound like sensible choices. Glad you have enjoyed such
success.  Some people think the basic diet some of us advocate is
vegetarian. It quite clearly isn't.  Put simply, too many people
ignore green vegetable including green beans.

> Here's a link to Dr. Sheldon Gottlieb's "Greens, Beans and Leans" diet .
>Gottlieb is a cardiologist and contributor to DLife. This diet takes
>awhile...so be patient.

It is a good read.  He has some excellent advice such as controlling
sodium intake by avoiding packaged food. Much packaged food has salt
as a flavour enhancer to increase consumption.

>By the way, Gottlieb is correct when he says that your body will adjust to
>the increased fiber where "gas"  is concerned.

It does pay to make changes gradually.  Some people get enthused with
the concept of having more fibre in their diet and then suffer.  They
would avoid the problem if they took it slowly.  I notice you mention
having flax in your diet.  This is an excellent source of fibre for T2
diabetics; two parts soluble fibre to one of insoluble fibre. The
omega-3 fatty acid provided by flax, alpha linolenic acid can be
converted to longer chain omega-3 fatty acids but the process is
inefficient and it takes about two weeks for concentration of the
right enzymes to do the conversion to build up. Just another example
where it is import to make the changes gradually. IMHO, the conversion
to longer chain omega-3 fatty acids is not important, though many
people think it is, for stability of heart rhythms.

>http://www.greensbeansandleans.com/
>
>The diet is a pdf file. The site contains a link to get a free download of
>Adobe Reader if you need it.

Thanks for posting Dr. Sheldon Gottlieb's "Greens, Beans and Leans"
diet.  Naturally there are a few minor details on which I might
tentatively disagree but they are minor points.  In practice what
people are looking for is a diet to start them out in the right
direction. IMHO he does that.  Many people will notice a strong
similarity with the various versions of the paleolithic diet.

Best wishes,
Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Jenny - 30 May 2006 15:01 GMT
 I notice you mention
> having flax in your diet.  This is an excellent source of fibre for T2
> diabetics; two parts soluble fibre to one of insoluble fibre. The
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> right enzymes to do the conversion to build up. Just another example
> where it is import to make the changes gradually.

Quentin,

There is one very important caveat about Flax seed which women need to
be aware of. There are female hormonal mimics in Flax oil which can pose
problems to those of us who are sensitive to progestins.  I asked a
woman who runs a university lab that investigates estrogen-like
compounds about this some years ago, and she confirmed that it is known
that flax contains female hormone mimics, but that no one at that time
had done the work to find out exactly what the compounds are and what
receptors they targeted. There is no funding to find that out, not so
surprisingly, as it could have a negative impact on sales of this
popular supplement.

I have a long history of problems where taking progestins in any form
causes me to become weepy and depressed. If I keep taking them I'll
start to bleed. I love flax seed and started eating it with my protein
powder every morning. Sure enough within three weeks I was bursting into
tears at anything and I also noticed that my estrogen production was way
down, negatively affecting sexual response.

A week after cutting out all flax, the problem resolved.  I had had the
same kind of problem with flax oil causing weepiness, but it developed
much more swiftly. Now I know I can't use the flax seed very often, either.

This effect of flax would be important to anyone who has had a
hormone-sensitive cancer or who has a history of hormone sensitivity.
If you can't handle progestins, stay away from Flax!

--Jenny

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
Sugar Under Control
Quentin Grady - 30 May 2006 20:06 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On Tue, 30 May 2006 10:01:45 -0400, Jenny <lottadata@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>  I notice you mention
>> having flax in your diet.  This is an excellent source of fibre for T2
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>be aware of. There are female hormonal mimics in Flax oil which can pose
>problems to those of us who are sensitive to progestins.

G'day G'day Jenny,

 Maryon Stewart who wrote "The Phyto Factor" back in 1998 named the
phytolignans which could be converted to mammalian lignans as
Secoisolaricirssnol (SSCO) and Matairesinol. While they are present in
other seeds eg soy and pumpkin, only in flax do they reach extremely
high levels.

> I asked a
>woman who runs a university lab that investigates estrogen-like
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>surprisingly, as it could have a negative impact on sales of this
>popular supplement.

There has been little funding though I think the reasons are different
from those you hypothesise.  The flax industry is small, especially in
comparison to the soy industry, on an international scale only
achieving importance in Canada.

>I have a long history of problems where taking progestins in any form
>causes me to become weepy and depressed. If I keep taking them I'll
>start to bleed.

Secoisolaricirssnol and matairesinol appear to me to estrogen mimics
not progesterone mimics. Needless to say your understanding of female
hormones is likely to be much better than mine.

>I love flax seed and started eating it with my protein
>powder every morning. Sure enough within three weeks I was bursting into
>tears at anything and I also noticed that my estrogen production was way
>down, negatively affecting sexual response.

I think you are making an important and perfectly valid point. Flax is
a highly concentrated source of the phytolignans. Most Western diets
these days probably suffer from a lack of phytolignans.  However it
would be all too easy to shift to a diet that has an excess of
phytolignans if one consumes flax in quantity.

>A week after cutting out all flax, the problem resolved.  I had had the
>same kind of problem with flax oil causing weepiness, but it developed
>much more swiftly. Now I know I can't use the flax seed very often, either.

I'm glad you didn't dismiss the symptoms as imagination. T2 diabetics
often find themselves at risk with their diets. They want to avoid the
errors of the past and so make changes. Some of them will be wise,
some not so wise. Fortunately you changed one thing at a time and took
note of what happened. One solution I see to this problem is not to
invent a new diet or to supplement the existing diet but rather to
search amongst existing diets.  Let ideas be tested by a whole culture
before experimenting on yourself.  

>This effect of flax would be important to anyone who has had a
>hormone-sensitive cancer or who has a history of hormone sensitivity.
>If you can't handle progestins, stay away from Flax!

Definitely. Treat flax with respect because it does contain high
concentrations of precursors for mammalian lignans with estrogen
mimicking properties.  For some people this will be just what they
need, for others it will be just what they don't.  Caution makes
sense.  

>--Jenny
>
>http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info
>
>http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
>Sugar Under Control

Best wishes,
Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Jenny - 30 May 2006 21:59 GMT
> Secoisolaricirssnol and matairesinol appear to me to estrogen mimics
> not progesterone mimics. Needless to say your understanding of female
> hormones is likely to be much better than mine.

My experience with a variety of prescription hormone pills over the
years has been that progesterone is what makes me weepy. It is also the
hormone that rises at the end of the month and seems to be associated
with pre-menstrual depression, hunger, higher blood sugars and general
all around misery.

Estradiol in pill form doesn't impact my mood at all. But that is just
one estrogen and there are others. My one experiment with Tri-est, a
form of three estrogens led to my blood sugars leaping up to 200 mg/dl
and my blood pressure going crazy too, so one pill was all I ever tried.

So you might be correct that the substances in flax  mimic an estrogen,
rather than progesterone. Whatever the explanation, I would hope that
anyone reading this would take away the idea that the stuff is some kind
of hormone and can impact mood and cancer cells in women who are hormone
sensitive. Men taking it who start growing breasts or wanting to have
long talks about their relationships with their significant other, might
also consider if they're taking too much  flax. <g>

My significant other took one sniff of the flax oil and said, "I used to
paint walls with this stuff, why are you eating it?"

It's a shame though, as my blood sugar liked it and so did the digestive
tract.

>> --Jenny
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Best wishes,

Signature

--Jenny

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
Sugar Under Control

Quentin Grady - 31 May 2006 02:37 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On Tue, 30 May 2006 16:59:37 -0400, Jenny <lottadata@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>My significant other took one sniff of the flax oil and said, "I used to
>paint walls with this stuff, why are you eating it?"

G'day G'day Jenny,

Your significant other might say that but of course it isn't true.
Repeating such claims is an unintentional calumny.

There are very important health regulation reasons why flaxseed oil
for culinary purposes isn't labeled linseed oil.  Linseed oil is
prepared by boiling the oil taken from crushed linseed. This produces
a highly toxic substance which must never, never be eaten.  When
linseed is used for the production of flaxseed oil, the conditions are
utterly different. The temperature is carefully controlled.  The
atmosphere is inert. Light is excluded. The oil is packaged in light
proof containers and should be kept in a refrigerator. Put simply,
linseed oil used to paint walls is a vastly different substance from
flaxseed oil used nutritionally.

Best wishes,
Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Jenny - 31 May 2006 14:51 GMT
> This post not CC'd by email
>  On Tue, 30 May 2006 16:59:37 -0400, Jenny <lottadata@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> My significant other took one sniff of the flax oil and said, "I used to
>> paint walls with this stuff, why are you eating it?"

Put simply,
> linseed oil used to paint walls is a vastly different substance from
> flaxseed oil used nutritionally.

They do smell the same.  I'd noticed that too.

--Jenny

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
Sugar Under Control
David R. Throop - 31 May 2006 05:02 GMT
>My significant other took one sniff of the flax oil and said, "I used to
>paint walls with this stuff, why are you eating it?"

The linseed oil used as a drying agent has had metal salts added to it
to speed the oxidation process.  That's why oily rags with linseed oil
are a fire hazard, but a napkin soaked with Barlean's Flax Oil isn't a
danger.

DRT.
Elizabeth Blake - 30 May 2006 22:19 GMT
> I think you are making an important and perfectly valid point. Flax is
> a highly concentrated source of the phytolignans. Most Western diets
> these days probably suffer from a lack of phytolignans.  However it
> would be all too easy to shift to a diet that has an excess of
> phytolignans if one consumes flax in quantity.

Quentin,

Do you know what the recommended intake of flax is?  I have a bag of flax
seeds that I use in my yogurt, cottage cheese, oatmeal and similar foods
when I have them.  I grind 1 tablespoon at a time and rarely do I have more
than 1T a day.  I have not had any weird side effects from it.  I was just
wondering if there was a recommended amount to take each day.  Last month my
CDE told me I could stop taking Lipitor because my cholesterol was down, and
I don't want to go back on it.  I started with the flax after reading that
it was good for cholesterol, it's natural and I like the taste/texture of
the stuff in my food!

Signature

Liz
Type 1 dx 4/1987
MM Paradigm 5/2005

Quentin Grady - 31 May 2006 02:26 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On Tue, 30 May 2006 17:19:37 -0400, "Elizabeth Blake"
<poodlebone@NOSPAMearthlink.net> wrote:

>> I think you are making an important and perfectly valid point. Flax is
>> a highly concentrated source of the phytolignans. Most Western diets
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Do you know what the recommended intake of flax is?  

G'day G'day Liz,

 There isn't a recommended intake.  No one has to eat flax seed or
defatted flax fibre or flax oil.  There is however a GRAS, Generally
Recommended As Safe level.  It takes a bit of looking up on the net.

The FDA has indicated that it has no objection to its use in foods up
to 12% flax.  In trials men have been given 50 grams/day in muffins
without ill effects.

>I have a bag of flax
>seeds that I use in my yogurt, cottage cheese, oatmeal and similar foods
>when I have them.  I grind 1 tablespoon at a time and rarely do I have more
>than 1T a day.  I have not had any weird side effects from it.

One wouldn't expect you to at this low level.

> I was just wondering if there was a recommended amount to take each day.

> Last month my CDE told me I could stop taking Lipitor because my cholesterol
> was down, and I don't want to go back on it.  I started with the flax after
> reading that it was good for cholesterol, it's natural and I like the
> taste/texture of the stuff in my food!

The best results are probably obtained with whole flaxseed that has
been crush or ground to give defatted flaxseed fibre.

Best wishes,
Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Elizabeth Blake - 31 May 2006 05:14 GMT
> G'day G'day Liz,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> to 12% flax.  In trials men have been given 50 grams/day in muffins
> without ill effects.

I'm taking well below that amount.  I don't want to overdo it, but I do want
to take enough to get some benefit from it.

> The best results are probably obtained with whole flaxseed that has
> been crush or ground to give defatted flaxseed fibre.

I just put the whole seeds into a small coffee grinder, pulse it a bit, and
then dump it into my oatmeal, cottage cheese etc.  I've read it's best if
they're ground fresh, so I keep the seeds in the fridge and grind some
whenever I want them.

Signature

Liz
Type 1 dx 4/1987
Minimed Paradigm 715 5/2005

Quentin Grady - 31 May 2006 07:37 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On Wed, 31 May 2006 04:14:31 GMT, "Elizabeth Blake"
<poodlebone@spamless.earthlink.net> wrote:

>> G'day G'day Liz,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>they're ground fresh, so I keep the seeds in the fridge and grind some
>whenever I want them.

G'day G'day Liz,

 That seems like a sensible approach. The whole flax freshly ground
is much safer IMHO than flaxseed oil.

Best wishes,
Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

italiangm - 31 May 2006 02:47 GMT
> Treat flax with respect because it does contain high
> concentrations of precursors for mammalian lignans with estrogen
> mimicking properties.  For some people this will be just what they
> need, for others it will be just what they don't.  Caution makes
> sense.

Agreed.  There are a few cautions out there for men regarding flax,
less so in seed form, but flaxseed oil was definitely implicated.
Apparently there's concern that flaxseed, and oil extracted from them,
can stimulate prostate cancer. The question is whether it initiates
prostate cancer, or stimulates reproduction of existing prostate cancer
cells into a more advanced state.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/80/1/204
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/12/3385
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/12/3386
Quentin Grady - 31 May 2006 07:35 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On 30 May 2006 18:47:42 -0700, "italiangm" <italiangm@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>> Treat flax with respect because it does contain high
>> concentrations of precursors for mammalian lignans with estrogen
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/12/3385
>http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/12/3386

G'day G'day Italiangm,

 You may notice that I don't advocate flaxseed oil though I sometimes
give defatted flaxseed fibre a favourable mention for its protein,
blend of soluble and insoluble fibre etc.  

The research you point to is the major reason why I don't advocate
flaxseed oil. To me flaxseed oil is risky like most overly refined
products.  The refining creates an imbalance and the imbalance creates
a risk.

However like many stories, the connection between flax and prostate
cancer is not a simple one. When men eat whole flaxseed freshly ground
or defatted flaxseed fibre it appears they benefit.  Their rate of
prostate cancer decreases.  In those countries where men get
phytolignans from their food eg seaweed there are lower rates of
prostate cancer or the cancer progresses so slowly that they grow old
and die from other causes before the prostate cancer strikes.  Far
from worrying about husbands and significant other males singing with
high pitched voices, it would make more sense to worry whether they
are getting sufficient phytolignans to avoid prostate cancer.  There
are other sources of phytolignans eg pumpkin seed, besides whole
crushed flaxseed but they are not nearly as concentrated.

Vastly more money is spent on breast cancer research for women than is
spent on prostate cancer for men although they have similar morbidity
rates.

The writer of the following may be a bit optimistic as people tend to
be when they think they are on to something new, never the less it
does present a different point of view.

http://www.youngagain2000.com/flaxhulls.html

The serious researchers in the field are very cautious with publishing
their findings. They know how quickly finding can be taken out of
context,and published before a case is proven. As best I can gather
the safe bet is whole crushed flaxseed at rates less than the GRAS
level.

Best wishes,
Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

 
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