 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / April 2006Obituary of woman who popularized food pyramid
Leaving no sad irony unspared, she died of a cancer made more prevalent by high starch consumption. :-/ Susan April 7, 2006 Friday Valerie J. Nelson Helen Ullrich, 83; Promoted Nutritional Labels, Helped Popularize Food Pyramid By pushing for nutritional information labels on packaged food and helping to popularize the food pyramid, Helen Denning Ullrich tried to make it easier for Americans to develop better eating habits. Ullrich, who helped establish the field of nutrition education, died of breast cancer March 19 at her home in Berkeley, said Patricia Mapps, her longtime neighbor and friend. Ullrich was 83. As a primary founder of the Society for Nutrition Education in 1967, Ullrich helped make the discipline what it is today, said Pat Crawford, co-director of the Center for Weight and Health at UC Berkeley. "She had foresight many years ago when she said, 'Knowledge isn't everything. We have to look beyond the science, at education and behavior,' " Crawford said. In the late 1960s, science had just begun to link nutrition to chronic disease, which made Ullrich and others see the need for an organization that could influence the public's food choices. She ran the society for about a dozen years. The movement gained ground at the 1969 White House Conference on Food, Nutrition and Health at which Ullrich successfully lobbied for several landmark programs. They included the expansion of food stamp benefits and the adoption of nutrition facts labels, which began appearing on food packages in 1974. "Helen was so effective in the political arena because she was very good at translating science into everyday language that people could understand," said Joanne Ikeda, a nutrition education specialist at UC Berkeley. At an international conference in 1988, Ullrich introduced a simple illustration by an Australian colleague that would become a popular teaching tool for daily dietary needs: the food pyramid. In the audience were two members of the U.S. Department of Agriculture who asked for copies, Ullrich recalled in "The Nutritionists," a memoir published last year. Four years later, the USDA introduced the first food guide pyramid. Among Ullrich's proudest accomplishments was her role in the passage of the Child Nutrition Act of 1977, which brought nutrition education to schools. She was born Nov. 28, 1922, in Berkeley and grew up in Evanston, Ill. Her father, Stephen Denning, was a dairy industrialist, and her mother, Margaret, had a degree in home economics from UC Berkeley. After Ullrich earned a bachelor's degree in nutrition science from UC Berkeley in 1944, she completed a master's in nutrition education at Columbia University. Her first job was as a food chemist in the Army during World War II. Later she researched the nutrition content of native foods at the University of Hawaii and worked as a nutrition specialist at Pennsylvania State University and UC Berkeley. At 39, she married Bob Ullrich, a freelance journalist. After having her only child in 1963, she resigned from UC Berkeley because the university did not offer maternity leave. When her daughter started school, Ullrich returned to the field, founding the nutrition society and launching its Journal of Nutrition Education, which she edited from 1968 to 1979. In retirement, she helped found a food bank in Alameda County and volunteered at the Berkeley Food Pantry. After her husband died a few years ago, friends often took her to fine restaurants. Ullrich was said to make smart food choices but wasn't above the occasional indulgence. When presented with a box of See's candy, she allowed herself two pieces a day. In addition to her daughter, Louise Myers, of Canton, Ohio, Ullrich is survived by two grandchildren. > Leaving no sad irony unspared, she died of a cancer made more prevalent > by high starch consumption. :-/ If she was the driving force behind nutrition labelling, we owe her a lot. Chak  SignatureAny sufficiently advanced bureaucracy is indistinguishable from molasses. >>Leaving no sad irony unspared, she died of a cancer made more prevalent >>by high starch consumption. :-/ [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Chak Yes, definitely, for the presence of so much information. Yet those labels recommend percentages of calories from micronutrients, with the bulk coming from starches. like the pyramid she introduced. Susan The saddest thing about this woman's passing is that you have used her obituary to further your "starch is evil" agenda. Without a lick of proof about the cause of how she got her cancer you have assumed it was from her diet. Since you often make these kinds of wild assumptions, without any proof whatsoever, it is not surprising, but ridiculous just the same. Shame on you. This remarkable woman lived 83 years and achieved many great things in her long life. We should all do so well. Kurt > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > In addition to her daughter, Louise Myers, of Canton, Ohio, > Ullrich is survived by two grandchildren. > The saddest thing about this woman's passing is that you have used her > obituary to further your "starch is evil" agenda. Without a lick of > proof about the cause of how she got her cancer you have assumed it was > from her diet. Since you often make these kinds of wild assumptions, > without any proof whatsoever, it is not surprising, but ridiculous just > the same. Shame on you. You really need to learn to read English. Priscilla > This remarkable woman lived 83 years and achieved many great things in > her long life. We should all do so well. [quoted text clipped - 100 lines] > > In addition to her daughter, Louise Myers, of Canton, Ohio, > > Ullrich is survived by two grandchildren. >>The saddest thing about this woman's passing is that you have used her >>obituary to further your "starch is evil" agenda. Without a lick of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > You really need to learn to read English. As my toddler used to say: "dat 'toopid!" ;-) Susan This woman, at a conference, passed along "a simple illustration by an Australian colleague" to two people who worked for the USDA, which a couple of years later came out with the food pyramid based on that drawing. She lobbied for nutritional labeling which was eventually adopted. To say that "Leaving no sad irony unspared, she died of a cancer made more prevalent by high starch consumption" is to imply that she was responsible for the contents of the pyramid, or perhaps of the USDA standards embodied in the nutrition labels. Methinks that is jumping to conclusions based on a dislike for the labeling or pyramid standards. Somehow that rubs me the worng way. This woman clearly made a difference in the world. Morris > This woman, at a conference, passed along "a simple illustration by > an Australian colleague" to two people who worked for the USDA, which [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Somehow that rubs me the worng way. This woman clearly made a > difference in the world. Morris, I cnn't be responsible for how you choose to interpret what I believe was clear to most others. I used the words "sad irony" because that's what it is to me. I doubt she would've promoted or eaten such a diet had she known. You clearly have misread my meaning and my intention. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > >> This woman, at a conference, passed along "a simple illustration by >> an Australian colleague" to two people who worked for the USDA, >> which a couple of years later came out with the food pyramid based >> on that drawing. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> the contents of the pyramid, or perhaps of the USDA standards >> embodied in the nutrition labels. Methinks that is jumping to >> conclusions based on a dislike for the labeling or pyramid standards. >> Somehow that rubs me the worng way. This woman clearly made a >> difference in the world. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > You clearly have misread my meaning and my intention. The people who used the sad irony card re Robert Atkins didn't get the same reaction as Susan has. It seems in his case the people talking about sad irony were deemed justified so they weren't abused for their opinions. Susan's comment was not made in an insensitive manner. Not like some of the anti Atkins brigade who more or less said, you deserved all you got you sucker. Geez how often do you hear after a death of someone you know things like "he was a heart attack waiting to happen..." etc. And everyone nods. > The people who used the sad irony card re Robert Atkins > didn't get the same reaction as Susan has. It seems in his > case the people talking about sad irony were deemed > justified so they weren't abused for their opinions. > Susan's > comment was not made in an insensitive manner. Not like some > of the anti Atkins brigade who more or less said, you > deserved all you got you sucker. Geez how often do you hear > after a death of someone you know things like "he was a > heart attack waiting to happen..." etc. And everyone nods. Yeah, the two really are not analagous; I wasn't gloating, I feel genuine sadness and I see the irony. Susan > Not like some > of the anti Atkins brigade who more or less said, you > deserved all you got you sucker. Geez how often do you hear > after a death of someone you know things like "he was a > heart attack waiting to happen..." etc. And everyone nods. I don't think "everyone" nodded.:) But you're right, it's not any more justified to bash Dr. Atkins than anyone else. I've read his book and don't use his diet advice but what I've seen from people that dismiss him blindly, and even some who say they are on the Atkins diet, is that they never took the time to read what he had to say. They just heard a friend tell them "cut out the carbs" and they stopped eating anything with a carb in it and started devouring a lot of high fatty foods. That's not what he was about but people talking out of their a.s just assume that it is. Obviously when it comes to nutrition and eating (and not just for diabetics) there are many different schools of thought. We all have to make our own choices regarding which school we enroll in and learn as much as possible to make an intelligent decision. But none of us are doctors or professional dietitians in here and it behooves us all to listen to those who are. Best, Kurt Nope, you're wrong about the professional dietitians. It behooves all of us, to determine when one of them doesn't know their a.s from six bits, and seek other advice. :-) Cheri Kurt wrote in message <1144448428.037705.28990@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>... >much as possible to make an intelligent decision. But none of us are >doctors or professional dietitians in here and it behooves us all to >listen to those who are. > >Best, >Kurt :: Ozgirl wrote: :: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] :: of us are doctors or professional dietitians in here and it behooves :: us all to listen to those who are. Right. First, you don't know who is in here, and second, those you're telling us to listen to will disagree. So what in the hell kind of advice is that, Kurt? > But none of us are > doctors or professional dietitians in here and it behooves us all to > listen to those who are. Show me one who knows diddly-squat about diabetes and I'll listen. Nicky. SignatureA1c 10.5/5.4/<6 T2 DX 05/2004 1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine 95/74/72Kg ::: But none of us are ::: doctors or professional dietitians in here and it behooves us all to ::: listen to those who are. :: :: Show me one who knows diddly-squat about diabetes and I'll listen. I really, really can't get Kurt's point on this. I've dealt with several dietitians and personally I've learned more reading on my own than all of them together seemed to know relative to diabetes. And, when you ask a doctor about nutrition the answers you typically get are so run-of-the-mill that you're left wondering why bother. So, in general, you're going to get very poor info from the locals. Then, if you go read what the MD and nutritions who publish books have to say, you'll find notions all over the friggin map. One can counter by saying move to another doctor and/or nutritionist. Who has time to doc hop like that? So, what is one to believe? Me, I'll believe my hard-won results. And any research that I read that lines up with those results will be listened to and given more weight. Any reasearch that I read that doesn't line up with those results will be given less weight. > ::: But none of us are > ::: doctors or professional dietitians in here and it behooves us all to [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > reasearch that I read that doesn't line up with those results will be given > less weight. Roger, My point will always be lost if one such as yourself has decided that the entire medical community is so flawed that you have to treat yourself. I don't say that sarcastically at all, but a realization that you and I have come to different conclusions. Personally I have had excellent doctors all of my life, not the least of which is my current endo who is cutting edge (no pun intended) when it comes to diabetes. I still see a registered dietitian about once a year to discuss my diet. The woman I see is very much in tune with my personal goals and findings. I too have had hard won results when it comes to my health and that is because I have worked "with" professionals who know more than I do. With their guidance, my health is much better than it ever could be if I were to act alone. Of course you're going to give more weight to research that match up with your good results, but at what cost? Ignore the research that opposes it? Guess that kind of makes sense. Maybe you're smarter than most and are able to interpret the medical research completely. When research is posted in here it is often times done so with the impression that it is undisputed findings. For every study posted there could possibly be a few out there that say the exact opposite. So where does the layman go to try and makes sense of it all? IMO, too often in this newsgroup the general impression is that the medical community at large is incompetent when it comes to diabetes. I have no doubt that some here have come to that conclusion based on poor care and advice that they have received. However, some seem to bash doctors or dietitians because they simply don't agree with them. As a result of the ill feelings about doctors and dietitians that you find in here a newbie might believe it all as blind fact and start to believe they should just treat themselves, or treat their diabetes based on what others here say. The truth of the matter probably lies somewhere between the extreme positive I have found with the medical community and the extreme negative others say they have found. So when I hear someone make the broad sweeping statement "show me one (doctor or dietitian) who knows diddly squat" I am going to react. Hope that clarifies my point. Best, Kurt And, of course, it will be lost on his kindred spirit as well, that being me. You're speaking from your own experience Kurt, others are doing the same. It doesn't mean that you haven't seen doctors who know what they're talking about, it means some of us haven't, so if you're going to say docs and dietitians know what they're talking about, and we should always be listening to them, as you said in a previous post, I'm going to react. :-) -- Cheri "I have learned that making a living, is not the same thing as making a life."... Maya Angelou Kurt wrote in message <1144518919.951229.87000@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>... >The truth of the matter probably lies somewhere between the extreme >positive I have found with the medical community and the extreme [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Best, >Kurt :: Roger Zoul wrote: ::: Nicky wrote: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] :: the entire medical community is so flawed that you have to treat :: yourself. The fact of the matter is, I am the person most responsible for my treatment and my health. However, since I can't subscribe medications for myself if needed, your point about treating myself is a little silly. There are a zillion things doctors can do for me better than I can do for myself. They can order blood work and treat many other aliments (broken parts, etc.), MRI, catscans, etc. The list goes on. But still, in the end, I bore the responsibility. :: I don't say that sarcastically at all, but a realization :: that you and I have come to different conclusions. Personally I have :: had excellent doctors all of my life, not the least of which is my :: current endo who is cutting edge (no pun intended) when it comes to :: diabetes. I would certainly expect a specialist such an an endo to be more knowledgeable about diabetes than your average doctor, being a nonspecialist. :: I still see a registered dietitian about once a year to :: discuss my diet. Why? :: The woman I see is very much in tune with my :: personal goals and findings. Ah, that's why you see her. It doesn't if she know anything, as long as she agrees with you, she's great, right? :: I too have had hard won results when :: it comes to my health and that is because I have worked "with" :: professionals who know more than I do. With their guidance, my :: health is much better than it ever could be if I were to act alone. You know we now live in an age where information is easily available. Think about that for a second, Kurt. :: Of course you're going to give more weight to research that match up :: with your good results, but at what cost? At what cost? I get my blood work regularly, and i keep under tight control. I exercise, etc. So exactly what is the cost that you refer to? Good health and well being? By my judgement, what I'm doing is working great. And, my own doctor hasn't told me to stop. So what are you talking about, Kurt? You seem to be happy trying to cast FUD onto my way, and I'll react to that everytime. :: Ignore the research that :: opposes it? No, I read it. I have read it, and have even followed it (speaking of low fat, etc.) However, I also see a clear historical pattern that suggest something that doesn't speak well of the entire community. You can deny it if you wish, but I don't wish to do so. History will speak for itself, Kurt. :: Guess that kind of makes sense. Maybe you're smarter :: than most and are able to interpret the medical research completely. Whatever. I have read research where conclusions don't match up with data given. It's easy to find. :: When research is posted in here it is often times done so with the :: impression that it is undisputed findings. Nonsense. For one thing, researchers never write papers that way. They would never be published. People who post research here are simply making it easy for people who share a common interests to be aware of current research. For some reason, you seem to be against people becoming more informed. You seem to be very "establishment oriented." Don't make waves, huh, Kurt? :) For every study posted :: there could possibly be a few out there that say the exact opposite. :: So where does the layman go to try and makes sense of it all? READ, READ, READ. :: IMO, too often in this newsgroup the general impression is that the :: medical community at large is incompetent when it comes to diabetes. At large, I agree. I do think that things are slowly changing, however. I do think that even doctors are becoming better equipped. However, we do hold some notions that worry me still, like the silly notion of a "balanced diet," meaning that it's best to eat equally from the various food groups. :: I have no doubt that some here have come to that conclusion based on :: poor care and advice that they have received. And why should they not react that way? :: However, some seem to :: bash doctors or dietitians because they simply don't agree with :: them. This is a forum where that is allowed. Freedom of speech comes to mind. As a result of the ill feelings about doctors and dietitians :: that you find in here a newbie might believe it all as blind fact :: and start to believe they should just treat themselves, or treat :: their diabetes based on what others here say. Well, it would be one thing if people here didn't post any supporting information or results. The fact is, if something worked for me, it might work for another. Another fact is, I have support within the medical community itself for my approach to managing my diabetes. It cannot be denied. So, if you can find factions of disagreement within the medical community itself, why do you find it so hard to believe that it shouldn't exist here. Also, people are people. Doctors are people. Doctors are frequently business people who are very busy. They can get behind on current trends and end up using old treatments for common aliments. And while I'm always, no matter what you think, willing to talk to my doctor, I never blindly trust them, no matter what they say. I also realize my own short comings and I find it useful to lean on others who have been in similar situations and have found solutions. It helps me form better opinions. :: The truth of the matter probably lies somewhere between the extreme :: positive I have found with the medical community and the extreme :: negative others say they have found. So when I hear someone make the :: broad sweeping statement "show me one (doctor or dietitian) who knows :: diddly squat" I am going to react. Well, you claim you have an extremely positive experience. Great. That could be true for a lot of reasons. Perhaps the standards of care they used to treat you have worked for you. Okay, great. Perhaps fate has fallen your way. However, as a type 2, I'm not at all impressed by the type of treatment and advice I have received, especially in the area of nutrition (doctors, to me, seem most adept at prescribing medication - I think once you get much beyond that their usefulness is very limited). And I've lived all across this country and have been a t2 for 24 years. Strangely, there seem to be others here who can relate similar experience. I will close in saying one thing. I have had good experience with using doctors for medications that have helped me get to where I am now. That is, each time in my life where I either gained a lot of weight or let my BG get out of control, doctors have been able to help me, with medication, to get it under control. That allowed me time to find a way to eat properly so that I could come completely off meds so I can control through diet and exercise, in an almost effortless manner, I might add. Bravo Roger, excellent reply. The only problem I have with it, is that you said it and I didn't. ;-) -- Cheri "I have learned that making a living, is not the same thing as making a life."... Maya Angelou >:: Roger Zoul wrote: >::: Nicky wrote: [quoted text clipped - 169 lines] >that I could come completely off meds so I can control through diet and >exercise, in an almost effortless manner, I might add. > Bravo Roger, excellent reply. The only problem I have with it, is that > you said it and I didn't. ;-) Ditto : ) Nicky. SignatureA1c 10.5/5.4/<6 T2 DX 05/2004 1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine 95/74/72Kg ::: Bravo Roger, excellent reply. The only problem I have with it, is ::: that you said it and I didn't. ;-) :: :: Ditto : ) :: :: Nicky. Wow. Thanks. I sure had some typos in there, though! Roger, I am so glad that you came to this group...you save me the trouble of trying to compose a coherent message. I can just bounce off your posts, since you say it so well. Of course, you do that for me in the LC newsgroup too. You and Peter, princes in my book, now if we could only get JC to answer Kurt a few times in ASD........LOL ;-) -- Cheri "I have learned that making a living, is not the same thing as making a life."... Maya Angelou >::: Bravo Roger, excellent reply. The only problem I have with it, is >::: that you said it and I didn't. ;-) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Wow. Thanks. I sure had some typos in there, though! :: Roger, I am so glad that you came to this group...you save me the :: trouble of trying to compose a coherent message. I can just bounce :: off your posts, since you say it so well. Of course, you do that for :: me in the LC newsgroup too. You and Peter, princes in my book, now :: if we could only get JC to answer Kurt a few times in ASD........LOL :: ;-) Oh, boy! We don't want to curse poor Kurt in that way, do we? :) Thanks for the kind words, though. However, I think you do what you said I do much better than I do. :: -- :: Cheri [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] ::: ::: Wow. Thanks. I sure had some typos in there, though! > Roger, I am so glad that you came to this group...you save me the > trouble of trying to compose a coherent message. I can just bounce off > your posts, since you say it so well. Of course, you do that for me in > the LC newsgroup too. You and Peter, princes in my book, now if we could > only get JC to answer Kurt a few times in ASD........LOL ;-) Ack, please, no! Susan >Bravo Roger, excellent reply. The only problem I have with it, is that >you said it and I didn't. ;-) > >-- >Cheri I should have read it first, before I wrote mine:-) Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 2x500mg SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. Yours was excellent too, they always are. :-) -- Cheri "I have learned that making a living, is not the same thing as making a life."... Maya Angelou Alan S wrote in message ... >>Bravo Roger, excellent reply. The only problem I have with it, is that >>you said it and I didn't. ;-) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >-- >Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter. > IMO, too often in this newsgroup the general impression is that the > medical community at large is incompetent when it comes to diabetes. Y'know, from time to time we have a poll on whether or not we've come across competent GPs, dieticians and endos. I've taken part in 2 in the couple of years I've been hanging out here. Some people are lucky; the majority are not. You can hear the deafening silence when a newbie says they're going to a dietician, whilst everyone hopes they'll strike lucky. My personal experience is that the endo I'm no longer entitled to see (having achieved good control) was excellent. The dietician was crap, with bog-standard advice. I'm training my GP - in conjunction with his Dad, who was dx'd about the same time as me; the GP was disgusted 2 years ago that we're both restricting carbs and testing a lot. Now it's becoming his standard advice to T2s : ) The GP is worth training because he's young, bright, interested and prepared to change his mind - and because he knows a heck of a lot more than I do about every other disease known to mankind. But I know more than he does about diabetes, and I don't expect that to change. I currently have, I think, 10 hours of Medscape CMEs on diabetic subjects this year; my GP has no requirement to continue his training. Nicky. SignatureA1c 10.5/5.4/<6 T2 DX 05/2004 1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine 95/74/72Kg You know, when I see some dietary posts, I am totally shocked. I try not to answer, since I am self managed, and A1c of 6.2, I do not think I'm qualified to give advice, so I don't, but (I've told this story before) a lady at a weight loss group I attend, type 2 for over fifteen years, does not know what it means to count carbs, she has had several toes amputated now, and her only take on it is...my big toe was amputated, and my balance is still good. Not, why the Hell is this happening, my toes are going, but "I still have good balance." I printed out Jennifers' advice for her, and a lot of other information that I THOUGHT would be helpful. They totally ignored me, gave me a bunch of crap about how an avocado has 1800 calories in only a half etc., and I just gave up. I say nothing now. Nothing. I mean...Nothing. -- Cheri "I have learned that making a living, is not the same thing as making a life."... Maya Angelou to diabetes. >Y'know, from time to time we have a poll on whether or not we've come across >competent GPs, dieticians and endos. I've taken part in 2 in the couple of [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine >95/74/72Kg > You can hear the deafening silence when a newbie says they're going to a > dietician, whilst everyone hopes they'll strike lucky. I might say more at those times, but I've gotten tired of being attacked for what I do say. The first dietician I saw wasn't perfect (so few people are in anything, <sigh> ...) but she was a great help; unlike many, she did listen & take note of what I like/don't like, my lifestyle, etc. I took the personalized plan she gave me & tweaked it from there -- though I've never eaten as many veggies as she put down (I ain't talkin' potatoes) I have done better in that regard than I did "before". bj <ducking for cover> >>You can hear the deafening silence when a newbie says they're going to a >>dietician, whilst everyone hopes they'll strike lucky. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > bj > <ducking for cover> You've said this twice in two days; I've never seen you attacked for it. The only ones here I see attacking others are the ones who complain the most about being attacked. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Susan P.S. BJ, I didn't intend to imply that you do this, btw. Susan > > You can hear the deafening silence when a newbie says they're going to a > > dietician, whilst everyone hopes they'll strike lucky. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > bj > <ducking for cover> I still think dieticians are useful for many people. I already knew most of what was said to me by the three that I saw. But from what I've seen, most people do not know how to read a nutrition label, figure out what category a food would fit into, such as protein, carb or vegetable. Or how to figure a portion size. These are the people who need the dietician. Now granted, the diet they are given by the dietician may not work for them. I guess I was lucky. It worked for me for a while. Now things are different. As for the veggies, I eat more than I was told to. In fact all three told me I was eating too many veggies. I can't help it. I like them and I don't think there is a problem with eating too many things like green beans, celery or lettuce. They are low in calories and carbs. So I continue to eat more than my allotted two servings per meal. SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm > As for the veggies, I eat more than I was told to. In fact all three told > me I was eating too many veggies. I can't help it. I like them and I > don't > think there is a problem with eating too many things like green beans, > celery or lettuce. They are low in calories and carbs. So I continue to > eat more than my allotted two servings per meal. Maybe between us we average out. :-) bj Nicky, Regarding the 2 asd polls you mention as to how competent GPs, Endos, and dieticians have been for those responding--is it possible that this group is a somewhat unrepresentative sample, that people who come here do so because the conventional medical advice they received did not work for them? Since we all acknowledge that YMMV, that we are all different, can we infer from such a poll that the adivce is all bad? Or could it be that there is a large group of people who follow the advice the professionals give them and for whom that advice works? I'm not talking about the people who don't follow advice, and certainly there is a wide range of advice given by health professionals. But I would guess that most people who do follow advice and for whom it works, do not have time for support groups, on or off line. My aunt, who lived to 91 and died of something else, and my mother are 2 examples I can think of in my life. Morris > > IMO, too often in this newsgroup the general impression is that the > > medical community at large is incompetent when it comes to diabetes. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > 1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine > 95/74/72Kg > Nicky, > > Regarding the 2 asd polls you mention as to how competent GPs, Endos, > and dieticians have been for those responding--is it possible that > this group is a somewhat unrepresentative sample, that people who > come here do so because the conventional medical advice they received > did not work for them? Or maybe there are people out there who don't know something is not working for them and don't question their doctors. You have no idea how many type 2's I know in real life who just go along with everything their doctor says. Like a friend whose doctor said her average bg of 14.0 didn't need medication, and she never questioned it. And still didn't question it after her stroke. Sometimes in casual circumstances I meet someone with type 2 and it is very clear they don't have a clue about treating their diabetes and it is not their fault. Some are never advised to get meters, some haven't a clue about the effect of carbs on bg's. Maybe the people who come hear know that somehow their doctors are not giving them the advice they need and start seeking help elsewhere. > Or maybe there are people out there who don't know something > is not working for them and don't question their doctors. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > medication, and she never questioned it. And still didn't > question it after her stroke. Right. They think they have a disease that inevitably progresses, and fail to realize that it's not inevitable, it's just the result of lousy medical advice and self care. Susan >Nicky, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Morris I don't find the newbies coming here any different to the ADA forum or Yahoo forums, Morris. Maybe they had to try a little harder to find us. The significant difference is the level of the noise, and the quality of the advice IMO. If you dispute that last phrase, fine. I don't know any way to practically test - although a controlled survey of the average A1c one year after dx of asd and the ADA forum members would be interesting if it were possible. So would a follow-up five and ten years after dx to check onset of complications. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 2x500mg SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. alan, I did not mean to single out just the people who come to the asd group as unrepresentative. I suspect the people who come looking for advice anywhere online are people who are looking for help. Why would that be? Because the program they have been given is not working for them, which eliminates a fair proportion of those for whom the prescribed program does work, and/or because they are curious and want to do better, which eliminates the people who for whatever reason don't take diabetes seriously. The people participating on all these forums is basically a highly motivated group that is looking for new ideas, and is sadly unrepresentative of the majority of diabetics. Morris > >Nicky, > > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. > d&e, metformin 2x500mg > Nicky, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Or could it be that there is a large group of people who follow the > advice the professionals give them and for whom that advice works? Sure the sample here is wildly skewed. So let's look instead at the vast masses of diabetics out there. What's the average A1c in the US today? Damned glad I don't follow that advice. Nicky. SignatureA1c 10.5/5.4/<6 T2 DX 05/2004 1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine 95/74/72Kg >> Or could it be that there is a large group of people who follow the >> advice the professionals give them and for whom that advice works? > > Sure the sample here is wildly skewed. So let's look instead at the vast > masses of diabetics out there. What's the average A1c in the US today? > Damned glad I don't follow that advice. A lot of diabetics don't follow that advice either -- maybe if they did their bg control would be better. That advice they're not following, however deficient you think it is, is still better than what they are actually doing. bj >>> Or could it be that there is a large group of people who follow the >>> advice the professionals give them and for whom that advice works? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > however deficient you think it is, is still better than what they are > actually doing. Nope. The dietary advice I got - which doesn't seem to be rare - put my bg up to ER levels. Nicky. SignatureA1c 10.5/5.4/<6 T2 DX 05/2004 1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine 95/74/72Kg > "bj" <bjones44@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message >> A lot of diabetics don't follow that advice either -- maybe if they did [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Nope. The dietary advice I got - which doesn't seem to be rare - put my bg > up to ER levels. I said *a lot*, not *all. bj >>>> Or could it be that there is a large group of people who follow the >>>> advice the professionals give them and for whom that advice works? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Nope. The dietary advice I got - which doesn't seem to be rare - put > my bg up to ER levels. What exactly was the dietary advice you got? >>>>> Or could it be that there is a large group of people who follow the >>>>> advice the professionals give them and for whom that advice works? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > What exactly was the dietary advice you got? 1) Diabetics can eat the same diet as non-diabetics. 2) Eat oatmeal for breakfast. 3) Don't do low carb. Nicky. SignatureA1c 10.5/5.4/<6 T2 DX 05/2004 1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine 95/74/72Kg >>>>>> Or could it be that there is a large group of people who follow the >>>>>> advice the professionals give them and for whom that advice works? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >> What exactly was the dietary advice you got? > 1) Diabetics can eat the same diet as non-diabetics. > 2) Eat oatmeal for breakfast. I was very lucky. I didn't think I was diabetic. I discovered I was diabetic by testing my BG out of curiosity after eating a breakfast of oatmeal. So I discovered immediately on the same day that not only was I diabetic, but at least as far as I was concerned, the official diabetic dietary recommendations were dangerous nonsense. I guessed that I was unlikely to be the only diabetic who tested with horribly high BGs after eating oats for breakfast, and that a diabetes support group would be a good place to look for others like me. Since I'm an old man exploring the territory of age-related physiological degenerations, this is not the first medical newsgroup I've consulted. For the sheer number of well educated and intelligent contributors who are helping each other, and the rest of us, to become better educated and, shall I say, less unhealthy :-), it's outstanding. SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] > > Nicky, > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > masses of diabetics out there. What's the average A1c in the US today? > Damned glad I don't follow that advice. Is it the advice, or is it the non compliance by the patient? You seem to want to shoot the messenger instead of those many many who refuse to follow the advice. When it comes to diet "most" people just don't have the discipline it takes to change and follow a more healthy plan. Kurt > Is it the advice, or is it the non compliance by the patient? You seem > to want to shoot the messenger instead of those many many who refuse to > follow the advice. When it comes to diet "most" people just don't have > the discipline it takes to change and follow a more healthy plan. > > Kurt Bullshit. Your unwavering homage to Authority is getting really old. If a newbie, who has every reason to follow medical advice, does poorly on that advice, it must be that they were "non-compliant"????? I'm really sick to death of people who give shitty advice and then blame the patient when it doesn't work. Reminds me of the pentecostal preachers who tell people they didn't pray enough to get God's attention. When I was diagnosed, I had an A1c of 8.3%. I went to the dietitian as directed, the first of four I have seen in my diabetic career. She developed a "personalized" diet for me that was "summarized" on a 25th generation Xerox of the Lilly-published ADA Diet. It was the old 'eat lotsa carbs' approach. That'll be $150.00, please. Can you guess how well it worked? Despite conscientiously exercising, weighing and measuring foods, and following the diet religiously, my 3 mo. checkup had me gaining 8 lb, and saw my A1c rise to 9.4%. My endo, who had previously told me not to worry about my diabetes as *he* was the expert, started to get in my face about my "non-compliance". I told him it was time that somebody knocked him off that little pedestal he had built for himself, and very loudly fired his a.s on the spot. BTW, he was then the president of the local ADA chapter, but soon after elected to go back into research. I guess he preferred to deal with streptozocin-induced mice who were more on his evolutionary level. I called my internist and told him that he and I were going to have to deal with my diabetes together, and made an appointment for a 3-mo followup. Having been around the medical world for a while, I started doing my own research. As a result, I started to low-carb, and my next labs came back with an A1c of 5.9%. I understand that you are a Boy Scout, and are currently working very hard to earn your ADA merit badge. You want to believe in God, Country, and the Medical Establishment. You even launched your own sadly Quixotic quest here to mediate the divisions between their opinions and the general consensus in this NG. How is that going? Have you heard any news about how they are scrambling to fix thigs? No. You got the temp who patted your head and told you they would work on it. (Right along with the 5-year cure.) You are blinded to the fact that the ADA sponsors lousy dietary information for T-2s. Claiming that they now push people to local, personalized help via doctors and dietitians whose practices are in lockstep with the dogma of that lousy ADA information, and their individual malpractice carriers, is specious at best. The ADA has a moral, ethical, and statutory obligation to provide competent information. People *should* be able to trust them, but they can't. Unfortunately, the other national diabetes organizations seem to take their lead from the ADA, so there is no particular light on the horizon internationally. Claims of "individualized" treatment plans are a smokescreen. Bluntly, I see the ADA no differently than the priest who visits the sick and raises funds for the poor during the day, but betrays that trust by buggering the altar boys behind the altar after vespers, all the while singing "Holy, Holy, Holy". I'm glad you enjoy choir practice, and I hope they send you that merit badge real soon now. Jim ----non-compliant as hell with an A1c of 5.8% > > Is it the advice, or is it the non compliance by the patient? You seem > > to want to shoot the messenger instead of those many many who refuse to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Bullshit. Your unwavering homage to Authority is getting really old. But it's a nice contrast to your aggressive militant campaign against it. >If > a newbie, who has every reason to follow medical advice, does poorly on > that advice, it must be that they were "non-compliant"????? Didn't say that, but for the purposes of your rant I bet you hope I did. I said that it's a factor to be considered among all the doctor and medical profession hating. > I'm really sick to death of people who give shitty advice and then blame > the patient when it doesn't work. People or doctors? If you mean people on the Internet then I think we have something we can agree on. >Reminds me of the pentecostal > preachers who tell people they didn't pray enough to get God's attention. Yeah, it's just like that. > When I was diagnosed, I had an A1c of 8.3%. I went to the dietitian as > directed, the first of four I have seen in my diabetic career. She > developed a "personalized" diet for me that was "summarized" on a 25th > generation Xerox of the Lilly-published ADA Diet. It was the old 'eat > lotsa carbs' approach. That'll be $150.00, please. So you damn the entire organization and medical profession based on something that happened to you? "Eat lotsa carbs"...was it printed that way on the Xerox? > Can you guess how well it worked? Despite conscientiously exercising, > weighing and measuring foods, and following the diet religiously, my 3 [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > elected to go back into research. I guess he preferred to deal with > streptozocin-induced mice who were more on his evolutionary level. Man oh man, I would sure love to hear HIS side of the story. There is a chance that there's two sides to this, no? > I called my internist and told him that he and I were going to have to > deal with my diabetes together, and made an appointment for a 3-mo > followup. Having been around the medical world for a while, I started > doing my own research. As a result, I started to low-carb, and my next > labs came back with an A1c of 5.9%. Good for you. Have you ever entertained the thought, even for a moment, that there are others who have not experienced what you report? Is there no room for that in your anger? > I understand that you are a Boy Scout, and are currently working very > hard to earn your ADA merit badge. You want to believe in God, Country, > and the Medical Establishment. Is that what you understand? Well, then you understand wrong, Skippy. I'm not working any harder for an ADA merit badge than you are for the Girl Scout Low Carb Cauliflower Cookie Sales award. >You even launched your own sadly Quixotic > quest here Are you a windmill? >to mediate the divisions between their opinions and the > general consensus in this NG. How dare I try to offer a constructive forum by which change might have a chance to occur. Why don't I just sit on the sidelines and bitch, that's so much more productive. >How is that going? Have you heard any news > about how they are scrambling to fix thigs? Why should they scramble. Hasty decisions do no one any good. No matter what they do it wouldn't please you anyway. To you they are evil and from that evil no good can come and no change can occur. >No. You got the temp who > patted your head and told you they would work on it. (Right along with > the 5-year cure.) I got a couple of people to respond and tell me that they would give it serious consideration. Beyond that I have no control or can I make any claims. > You are blinded to the fact that the ADA sponsors lousy dietary > information for T-2s. No, I'm not blinded by that. I've said before, based on what I've read in this newsgroup I believe that they do need to make some changes to their website regarding Type 2's. The only blind I see is your blind hatred and inability to see beyond it. >Claiming that they now push people to local, > personalized help via doctors and dietitians whose practices are in > lockstep with the dogma of that lousy ADA information, and their > individual malpractice carriers, is specious at best. Must be why there are so many lawsuits against them, right? > The ADA has a moral, ethical, and statutory obligation to provide > competent information. Yup. >People *should* be able to trust them, but they > can't. You speaking for everybody? >Unfortunately, the other national diabetes organizations seem to > take their lead from the ADA, so there is no particular light on the > horizon internationally. All diabetes organizations are bad because they don't follow to the letter what you think diabetic advice should be? Nice to see you're firmly grounded in reality. >Claims of "individualized" treatment plans are > a smokescreen. > Bluntly, I see the ADA no differently than the priest who visits the > sick and raises funds for the poor during the day, but betrays that > trust by buggering the altar boys behind the altar after vespers, all > the while singing "Holy, Holy, Holy". WTF are you talking about? Seriously. > I'm glad you enjoy choir practice, and I hope they send you that merit > badge real soon now. Me, too. I have my bright new ADA uniform that it will look so spiffy on. > Jim > ----non-compliant as hell with an A1c of 5.8% Congrats on the A1c, however you achieved it. Glad to see you could get all that off your chest, Jim. I'm here for you if you need to unload again. At least I serve some purpose. Would hate to think that my being here does absolutely no good. :) Best, Kurt :: J.C. Hartmann wrote: ::: When I was diagnosed, I had an A1c of 8.3%. I went to the dietitian [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] :: something that happened to you? "Eat lotsa carbs"...was it printed :: that way on the Xerox? This same thing happened to me some 24 years ago. The very way it was presented made itinsulting, to say the least, never mind how lousy the advice was. ::: Can you guess how well it worked? Despite conscientiously ::: exercising, weighing and measuring foods, and following the diet [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] :: Man oh man, I would sure love to hear HIS side of the story. There :: is a chance that there's two sides to this, no? A doctor has a very 'external' view on the matter. He can't follow his patients around. He could assume non-compliance based on those numbers, no? ::: I called my internist and told him that he and I were going to have ::: to deal with my diabetes together, and made an appointment for a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] :: moment, that there are others who have not experienced what you :: report? Is there no room for that in your anger? Do you, Kurt, think that all of the folks who receive poor advice show up here? ::: I understand that you are a Boy Scout, and are currently working ::: very hard to earn your ADA merit badge. You want to believe in God, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :: Skippy. I'm not working any harder for an ADA merit badge than you :: are for the Girl Scout Low Carb Cauliflower Cookie Sales award. Low carb cauliflower cookie? Hmmm.....cauliflower is amazingly versatile, huh? >> Is it the advice, or is it the non compliance by the patient? You seem >> to want to shoot the messenger instead of those many many who refuse to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Bullshit. Once again, I should have read the other replies before responding. Thanks Jim. And, like you, I wrote too many words when the one above amply sufficed:-) Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 2x500mg SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. > > "morris" <morrisolder@comcast.net> wrote in message news:1144544998.993008.240490@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > > > Nicky, > > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Is it the advice, or is it the non compliance by the patient? I'd go for both. I know people who are told just cut out sugar and soft drinks and handed some Metformin. Others are given the 4 carb exchanges for meals, 2 for snacks (times 3), same one I was given. When it doesn't work they don't question. Another thing I am noticing outside of internet is that most people I know haven't a clue about what sort of complications you can get. They don't worry because they are ignorant of a lot of facts. And they don't find it necessary to find things out for themselves. That's what the doctor is for. >> > Nicky, >> > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Kurt Hi All "Is it the advice, or is it the non compliance by the patient?" The standard official cop-out. We can't be wrong - the patient must be non-compliant. Bull. That's not what I typed in the first draft. I'm being extremely restrained and polite here. I just checked through my old files. In 2002, after I attended a diet presentation at the local Community Health Centre, I signed up for a three-session course with the dietitian. I kept the course handouts. I also attended a one-on-one session with a different dietitian and kept her pamphlets and notes. I followed their advice very carefully at first; it was about the same time that I "discovered" Jennifer's advice. In the second week of the dietitian's course I was concerned at the effects of the diet on my BGs - the dietitian brushed me off. By the third week I was alarmed enough to become quite vocal - he simply said that it would get worse before it got better. He also informed me that type 2 on d&e alone could NOT have hypos - as I was shaking in front of him after a high-carb low-fat lunch two hours earlier; I peaked over 14(250) and tested under 4(72) in front of him IIRC. maybe he thought it was anger. It wasn't; that came later. At that time I still trusted him and was honestly confused at why my results were different to what he said. In simple terms the advice was very low-fat, and used a standard formula of three meals a day plus a couple of snacks. Males were recommended to have 9-12 "carbs" (135-180gm) over the day, females slightly less. Those were minimums, not maximums. The emphasis was on ensuring that you made that number at every meal, so every meal had to be a minimum of 3 or 4 carbs (45-60gm) - breakfast, lunch and dinner. It heavily emphasised using the GI to select the "right" carbs - but still pushed the minimum requirement at every meal. I have most of the official brochures in front of me now, with the Diabetes Australia logo on them. I won't type it out in full; these are some snippets, slightly edited for brevity: Blood glucose monitoring: Targets: Normal: 4-6(72-108) premeal, 4-8(72-144) post-prandial (two hours) Ideal: 4-6 premeal, up to 8 post-prandial Moderate: 6-7(108-126) premeal, up to 11(200) post-prandial High: more than 7 premeal, more than 11 post-prandial Guidelines for testing type 2: Test once or twice daily, changing the time of day at which your test is done or as directed by your doctor or diabetes educator. Suggested times are fasting, before other meals, or two hours after meals. This may be reduced to once or twice daily, two or three times a week or once a week, once good control is achieved. A1c was recommended to be under 7%, tested 3-6 months. Eating guide. Example day menu Saturday Breakfast 1/2 cup Whole Wheat Mini-Wheats with 1/2 cup Low Fat Milk 1 banana 1 slice multigrain bread with unsaturated margarine and cooked tomatoes Lunch 1 multigrain bread roll with slice of low-fat cheese and salad Strawberries with 1 cup low-fat yoghurt Dinner Bolognaise sauce (lean minced beef, tomato, capsicum and onion) 1 1/2 cups cooked pasta green salad 1/2 medium rockmelon (anteloupe to you guys) That was one of the better days - other breakfasts included fruit juice, crumpets etc. Snacking between meals. You may be advised to include a small amount of carbohydrate between meals. This often depends on your body weight. Suitable foods would be fruit, low-fat milk or yoghurt, whole-wheat biscuits or bread. There is too much to type it all in here. The gist was as shown above - low-fat, high carb, carbs at all meals, test twice a day or less unless ill or having a hypo. Initially, I followed that advice very strictly. My A1c stayed above 7, my fastings, at that stage, were not bad at around 6(108) and my post-prandials (at one hour) were all in double figures (over 180 in mg/dl). I decided to change to Jennifer's advice. Within a month of fully changing to the "test,test,test" advice I was well under 8(144) after meals, within twelve months I was under 6% A1c. The advice may have been excellent for an insulin-dependant diabetic - I wouldn't know, because I'm not one. It was bloody disastrous for me as a diet and exercise (at that time) type 2. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 2x500mg SignatureThe best teacher is the one who suggests rather than dogmatizes, and inspires his listener with the wish to teach himself. Edward Bulwer-Lytton (1803 - 1873) > The standard official cop-out. We can't be wrong - the > patient must be non-compliant. That "most people" crap is flat out refusal to be held accountable for the results of lousy advice. Most people can stick to something that makes them feel better, but not to something that doesn't. Most people see little reason to stick to a plan that allows the worsening of their disease to progress apace; what would motivate anyone to stick with something that doesn't work? Susan > >> > Nicky, > >> > [quoted text clipped - 135 lines] > bloody disastrous for me as a diet and exercise (at that > time) type 2. You go girl! Kurt "Kurt" <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com> wrote in message > You go girl! Kurt, 8kb for a you go girl! Snippy, snippy please. > "Kurt" <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > You go girl! > > Kurt, 8kb for a you go girl! Snippy, snippy please. Hey, I wouldn't dare edit or snip any of Alan's words. But now with your reprimand post and my response to your reprimand we've added to the load. God I hope the Internet can take the strain! :) Best, K (I just used an initial instead of my name to save space...where's my Boy Scout merit badge for that!) <snip> >> >Is it the advice, or is it the non compliance by the patient? You seem >> >to want to shoot the messenger instead of those many many who refuse to [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> >> I just checked through my old files. <snip> >> The advice may have been excellent for an insulin-dependant >> diabetic - I wouldn't know, because I'm not one. It was [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Kurt I also just checked when I had a shower. Nope. No change. Who were you referring to? Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 2x500mg SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. > Example day menu > Saturday [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > green salad > 1/2 medium rockmelon (anteloupe to you guys) That's the melon with the horns and the antlers. ;-) Priscilla > That's the melon with the horns and the antlers. ;-) > > Priscilla <*spew*> ;-D Susan >> 1/2 medium rockmelon (anteloupe to you guys) > >That's the melon with the horns and the antlers. ;-) > >Priscilla Oops - getting too reliant on spell-checkers:-) Did you like the menu? Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 2x500mg SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. >> > Nicky, >> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> masses of diabetics out there. What's the average A1c in the US today? >> Damned glad I don't follow that advice. > Is it the advice, or is it the non compliance by the patient? You seem > to want to shoot the messenger instead of those many many who refuse to > follow the advice. When it comes to diet "most" people just don't have > the discipline it takes to change and follow a more healthy plan. It's *both*. Firstly most people can't or won't change their diets on a permanent basis. Secondly, most if not all T2 diabetics who follow the official national diabetic dietary guidelines in AFAIK all the anglophone nations may well do better than on whatever they ate before, but they're condemning themselves to quite unecessarily high BG spikes, medication needs, and speed of progression of the disorder. SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] > Regarding the 2 asd polls you mention as to how competent GPs, Endos, > and dieticians have been for those responding--is it possible that this [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > who lived to 91 and died of something else, and my mother are 2 > examples I can think of in my life. Or there could be a large group of people out there who follow the advice of the professionals and don't realize that it doesn't work because they've never been told to test (or have been told NOT to test) and don't understand the relationship between BG and complications. Priscilla > > Regarding the 2 asd polls you mention as to how competent GPs, Endos, > > and dieticians have been for those responding--is it possible that this [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > because they've never been told to test (or have been told NOT to test) > and don't understand the relationship between BG and complications. Or the relationship between carbs and bg's. Take my daughter's boyfriend. He has been type 1 for 12 years and went to his first diabetic clinic a few weeks ago. When he came out of the clinic he was carrying a bag of goodies (log books, advertising paraphernalia, diet sheet, insulin ratios, new scripts etc.) I said whaddya know? He said not much. Then said, what's a carb? I kid you not. I have scrolled through his meter memory and seen 20.0, 24.0, 26.0, 3.2, 3.0. Dozens of numbers with none between 5.0 and 16.0. His most recent A1c was 7.0. He still shoots the amount of insulin he was told 12 years ago. He shoots, eats, if he goes very high he doesn't correct, if he goes low he has a large drink of Coke. My daughter doesn't understand it either but she cooks nutritional, balanced meals, the onus is on him to learn insulin ratios but it seems beyond his comprehension. > Roger, > > My point will always be lost if one such as yourself has decided that > the entire medical community is so flawed that you have to treat > yourself. I don't say that sarcastically at all, but a realization > that you and I have come to different conclusions. My endo is also cutting edge but my MD's and dieticians have been way less than helpful. Their limit if good solid diabetes treatment has been woeful at best. I guess that once again brings up the differences between type 1's and 2's. As a type 1 on insulin almost any program they gave you would have worked if you were told the relationship between carbs/fat and insulin doses. You obviously can't appreciate the problem of trying to fine tune a machine that has so many variables. Personally I have > had excellent doctors all of my life, not the least of which is my > current endo who is cutting edge (no pun intended) when it comes to > diabetes. My experience has been the opposite. We all live in the same world, it seems odd to find that a handful of people have found every doc to their liking no matter where they lived or what was wrong with them. I do remember at some doctors seeing roomfuls of elderly patients and finally figured out why. Every ache and pain no matter how minor scored them a script. Their doctor were marvellous people. That is not a good doctor in my book. I still see a registered dietician about once a year to > discuss my diet. The woman I see is very much in tune with my > personal goals and findings. Try going in and asking for a low carb diet, see what the answer is. Better still, ask for a lower carb diet, that still provides all the nutrients needed for good health and watch the result. It will either be a clear "there isn't one", or a lecture on the evils of low carb, blah blah. That's the point where I would leave, as a type 2. I too have had hard won results when it > comes to my health and that is because I have worked "with" > professionals who know more than I do. Then why do they still hand out crap high carb diets to type 2 diabetics if they are so knowledgeable? With their guidance, my > health is much better than it ever could be if I were to act alone. Mine is much much better than if I had acted upon the dieticians and MD's advice I had been given. Thank good for progressive cutting edge endo. I know you will never understand the type 2's lot without ever being in their shoes but why can't you take at face value just what we do have to deal with, with the medical profession? > Of course you're going to give more weight to research that match up > with your good results, but at what cost? Name the cost. Give some examples of the cost of low carbing. Ignore the research that > opposes it? I am researching my own body, nothing in the "cons" side of the argument matches my good health results. And as that is also the experience of a lot of other people, why would I believe the results, or in most cases the methods. > IMO, too often in this newsgroup the general impression is that the > medical community at large is incompetent when it comes to diabetes. Not incompetent, just poorly educated in the treatment of diabetes. If I have a heart murmur or an unexplained headache I immediately get referred to an appropriate specialist, with diabetes the doctors want to take the whole job on by themselves. And as it is one of most variable disorders of all, it makes no sense. I am happy to go to my MD for anything other than diabetes. Although he does do the type 2 lab testing at my request in between annual endo visits. I can only say this Oz, my doc, who is a nice guy, knows nothing about diabetes. I go there and tell him what medications I want, just in case. I always get Vicodin, Glucophage, Amaryl, and an antibotic, just in case I might need those things. My numbers were going up, so I told him I needed meds. He told me that he wanted his diabetics to be 7.0 or less, and that's a good number. I said, not for me, and maybe I need meds, so he prescribed the Glucophage and Amaryl. Now, here's the funny part to me, my liver, kidneys, etc., were excellent, but he wanted to put me on an ACE inhibitor, which might be fine, and pretty routine, but I said no. I have no insurance, and I want to do what I can...He put on my chart...non compliant DM. I made him take it off the chart. I think a person needs to take care of themselves in many instances. JMO Cheri " Ozgirl wrote in message >Not incompetent, just poorly educated in the treatment of >diabetes. If I have a heart murmur or an unexplained [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >type 2 lab testing at my request in between annual endo >visits. > > Roger, > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > the problem of trying to fine tune a machine that has so > many variables. Yeah, we Type 1's have it so easy. LOL. Once again you illustrate your lack of understanding when it comes to the those of us with Type 1. Do you think we don't have many variables? Your statement is about as sensitive and realistic as those who say "Wish I only had Type 2, then it could easily be controlled by losing weight and exercising." Both Types of diabetes have many variables and all of us who suffer with either of these insidious conditions fight a daily battle. > Personally I have > > had excellent doctors all of my life, not the least of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > found every doc to their liking no matter where they lived > or what was wrong with them. I ddin't say I found every doctor to my liking, but that I have had excellent doctors all my life. There is a difference. And where did you get the "handful" poll from? If you're basing the world on this newsgroup I would say your sampling pool is not representative. >I do remember at some doctors > seeing roomfuls of elderly patients and finally figured out > why. Every ache and pain no matter how minor scored them a > script. Their doctor were marvellous people. That is not a > good doctor in my book. How did you come to this conclusion? Did you talk to all of these people? Were they ALL beign overprescribed? Did you find out what those minor aches and pains were? Not saying that I don't think some doctors are quick with the scripts, but there are people who have many disorders who need medication. My own feeling is that Western medicine in general should spend more time treating the cause as aggresively as the effect. But that's just my layman's opinion. > I still see a registered dietician about once a year to > > discuss my diet. The woman I see is very much in tune [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Try going in and asking for a low carb diet, see what the > answer is. Why would I do that? >Better still, ask for a lower carb diet, that > still provides all the nutrients needed for good health and > watch the result. It will either be a clear "there isn't > one", or a lecture on the evils of low carb, blah blah. > That's the point where I would leave, as a type 2. Pretty broad sweeping statement. Not saying that there are those that oppose low carb eating but I think you might be exaggerating just a tad for dramatic puposes. :) And you wouldn't leave my dietician because she spends much time discussing the role of carbohydrates in a diabetic diet. She also listens to her patients and monitors their results. > I too have had hard won results when it > > comes to my health and that is because I have worked [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Then why do they still hand out crap high carb diets to type > 2 diabetics if they are so knowledgeable? They? All doctors hand out crap high carb diets to Type 2 diabetics? Do you consider any diet beyond the one that you follow to be a crap diet? Some no doubt do give cookie cutter advice, but your constant referring to all doctors with only your small sample is the kind of thing I think feeds the panic of many newbies here who start to believe that they should only listen to people in here instead of seeking professional help. > With their guidance, my > > health is much better than it ever could be if I were to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > shoes but why can't you take at face value just what we do > have to deal with, with the medical profession? I don't take anything at face value, nor do you from what I read. I truly believe "most" of the people in here who say they have had a bad experience with their doctors and feel sorry for them. Hopefully they are proactive enough to go in search of one that will serve their needs better. The difference between you and me is that I don't believe that all doctors are incompetent when it comes to diabetes care. And please, stop with the "Type 2's are worse off than Type 1" insinuation. It's ridiculous and weakens your position. > > Of course you're going to give more weight to research > that match up > > with your good results, but at what cost? > > Name the cost. Give some examples of the cost of low > carbing. It was a more general statement, and not specifically about low carb (whatever that means) that if one chooses to only believe the research that matches up with their opinions and at the same time ignoring other opposite findings, then it could be harmful. Say for instance someone is a smoker and there was one study that came out that sa |
Enable EMail Alerts
Start New Thread
Reply to this Message