I'm not doing straight Atkins myself but a lot of people who have tried
it have seen their cholesterol go down rather than up.

As I remember, most of the cholesterol floating around in your body is
made by your own liver and doesn't come from diet. A high carb diet
promotes the production of it, as I understand it.
And the more you eat the less your body will produce, so it may end up
a wash.

Ketosis (when fat is burned instead of glucose) is considered by some
to be nature's answer to the "thrifty gene", the one that gives you
high insulin levels to pack away every mouthful of carb as fat.  It's
needed to get the fat back out of the cells again in time of famine.

Ketosis caused by a low carb diet is not the same as ketoacidosis, a
condition found in very ill Type 1 diabetics where due to complete lack
of insulin the body starts to burn itself.

My own issue with Atkins is the saturated fat - I worry that because of
studies linking increased sat. fat to increased insulin resistance that
it may not do enough of a job on my insulin resistance as I would like.

Because of that I'm sticking to a lower-sat-fat higher-good-fat (nuts,
omega 3 fish, avocados) type of menu, to get the most bang for my buck.

I suggest you get some books out of the library and read up on the
rationale of a low carb diet if you are interested in finding out more
about them. Someone out here recommended "Protein Power" to me the
other day - I bought it and it's excellent.
There are other good explanations of how it works in The South Beach
diet book, Atkins' book, etc. but I like the scientific detail in the
Protein Power book the best myself, so far.

LQ

--
Cheri

JJ Jones wrote in message
<1144193114.515949.294600@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...

[snip]

Eating cholesterol and some fats has less effect than making them
from eating too many carbs. Watch what kinds of fats, though.

No.

chance and

so far,

to go down

now.

I use an eating plan that is very low cholesterol and trans
fat but moderate fat from walnuts, olives, olive oil and
avocados. I eat low'ish carb per meal and snack and I eat
around 9 times a day. That has the effect of keeping my bg's
low and almost perfectly even. I feel this has preserved my
remaining beta cells as I have no evidence of any diabetic
complications. AlanS refers to a low spike diet rather than
calling a diet low carb, moderate carb, whatever.

Do you have a meter? I have a great liking for vegetables,
raw and cooked. I avoid starchy foods but eat a lot of raw
and cooked low carb vegetables, sometimes raw and cooked in
the same meal, e.g. cooked veggies plus tossed salad with
olive oil dressing. I eat only the amount of recommended
protein and I choose very low fat meats, usually chicken
breast (3-4 ounces) fish (up to 8 ounces of seafood), heart
smart beef or pork and veal. Fish and chicken is the
dominant protein for me. I do eat eggs.

Strangely, for a lot of people it doesn't as cholesterol
levels often become normal after starting that kind of diet
and it is brilliant for reducing triglycerides.

Dietary ketones are not a problem.

Why don't you do a thorough research into the nutrients
supplied in grains and other starches. You will found that
there is nothing there that can't be provided in a lower
carb food. In actual fact, the nutrients supplied from lower
carb vegetable and fruits that are low GI will provide
better nutrients than a diet of protein, a few green beans
and a high starch diet.

The nutrients in fruit can also be found in raw vegetables.
Do your own research, rather than be swayed by "propaganda".
This high grain/carb push is a myth. You can obtain more
than adequate nutritional benefit from lower carb items. And
your triglycerides will love you for it.

Nutrients found in vegetables are very good for you, though inessential.
 Starches are comparatively nutrient impoverished and calorie dense.

Maybe these will help:

) Title: DG-DISPATCH - ENDO 99: Diabetics Improve Health With Very High-Fat,
Low
Carb Diet
Doctor's Guide
June 15, 1999

By Cameron Johnston
Special to DG News

SAN DIEGO, CA -- June 15, 1999 -- A very high-fat, low-carbohydrate diet has
been shown to have astounding effects in helping type 2 diabetics lose
weight
and improve their blood lipid profiles.

The results of three studies involving such a diet, which is similar to, but
has a few key differences from the famous "Dr. Atkins Diet", were presented
today
at the annual meeting of the Endocrine Society.

Dr. James Hays, an endocrinologist and director of the Limestone Medical
Center in Wilmington, DE, admitted that the concept of a high-fat diet in
people
who are already at higher risk of cardiovascular disease might seem
incongruous.
Nonetheless, this study of 157 men and women with type 2 diabetes showed an
impressive benefit in body mass index (BMI) triglycerides, HDL, LDL and
HbA1c.

Most people are encouraged to reduce the amount of fat in their diets,
particularly saturated fats, and diabetics in particular are advised to
reduce
their
overall caloric intake, Dr. Hays explained in an interview in San Diego
during
the
conference.

Whereas a normal diet would be in the order of 1800 to 2100 calories,
with 60
percent of calories coming from carbohydrates and 30 percent from fat,
patients

in this diet were restricted to 1800 calories per day and were encouraged to
get
50 percent of their caloric intake from fat, and just 20 percent from
carbohydrates.
The balance of 30 percent would come from proteins.

A whopping 90 percent of the fat content in their diets was saturated fat,
compared
with just 10 percent that was monounsaturated fat.

"I think this is at least worth considering for any diabetic," Dr. Hays
said in
an interview.
"The thing many diabetics coming into the office don't realize is that other
forms of
carbohydrates will increase their sugars, too. Dietitians will point them
toward complex carbohydrates ... oatmeal and whole wheat bread, but we
have to
deliver the message that these are carbohydrates that increase blood sugars,
too."

Higher-fat diets, on the other hand, seem to make the person feel full
faster
so they eat less; higher-fat diets also tend to reduce postprandial
hypoglycemia so the patients feel better after eating.

"Every diabetic comes home from the doctor with instructions as to what
their
diet should consist of, but they're not getting the information from
dietitians about what complex carbohydrates they should eat,"

Dr. Hays said:
"The important thing here is no ketosis. We absolutely don't want people to
become
ketotic, and so we said they had to have so many exchanges of fresh
fruits and
vegetables and we specified the ones they could eat."

They were able to eat all the meat and cheese they wanted, but as for
carbohydrates, they are restricted to eating unprocessed foods, mainly fresh
fruit and vegetables, he added.

Subjects recruited into the study (84 men, 73 women) were all type 2
diabetics
and
were required to undergo a standard American Diabetes Association
modified diet
for
one full year before entry into the trial. Over the course of one year, the
subjects achieved a mean decline in total cholesterol of between 231 and 190
mg/dl. Triglycerides declined from 229 to 182 mg/dl.

Low-density lipoproteins (LDL cholesterol) fell from 133 to 105 mg/dl, while
HDL
increased from 44 to 47 mg/dl.

HbA1c, which at the start of the study averaged 3.34 percent above normal,
declined to the point that at one year, the mean was just 0.96 percent above
normal.

The average weight loss among subjects in the study was in the order of 40
pounds, Dr. Hays said.

By the end of the one-year study, he added, 90 percent of the patients had
achieved ADA (American Diabetes Association) targets for HbA1c, HDL,
LDL and triglycerides.

Even among juvenile diabetics, he said, they might not be overweight and
they
might have more or less normal lipid levels, but when they are on this
kind of
diet
it is possible to treat them with lower doses of insulin and make their
lives a
little
safer, he said.

As for the response from cardiologists who see a high-fat diet as
anathema to
what they have been instructing their patients for years now, Dr. Hays
said he
has
three cardiologist patients who are now on the diet.

"If you have a diet that results in weight loss, lower cholesterol, and a
better lipid profile, eventually, everybody will be eating that way.
It's going
to come
whether we like it or not."

Why do low-fat high-carbohydrate diets accentuate postprandial lipemia
in patients with NIDDM?

Chen YD, Coulston AM, Zhou MY, Hollenbeck CB, Reaven GM

Department of Medicine, Stanford University School of Medicine,
California.

OBJECTIVE--To understand why low-fat high-carbohydrate (CHO) diets
lead to higher fasting and postprandial concentrations of triglyceride
(TG)-rich lipoproteins in patients with non-insulin-dependent diabetes
mellitus (NIDDM). RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS--Patients with NIDDM
were placed randomly on diets containing either 55% CHO, 30% fat, and
15% protein or 40% CHO, 45% fat, and 15% protein for 6 weeks, followed
by crossover to the other diet. Test meals at the end of each diet
period were consumed at 8:00 A.M. and 12:00 P.M. (noon) and contained
20 and 40% of daily calories, respectively. Vitamin A was also given
at noon, and TG-rich lipoproteins of intestinal origin were identified
by the presence of vitamin A esters. Frequent measurements were made
throughout the 24-h study period of plasma glucose, insulin, and TG
concentrations. Plasma samples obtained from 12:00 P.M. (noon) until
12 A.M. (midnight) were subjected to ultracentrifugation, and
measurements were made of TG and vitamin A ester concentrations in
plasma and in both the Svedberg flotation constant (Sf) > 400
(chylomicron) and Sf 20-400 (chylomicron remnant) lipoprotein
fractions. In addition, very-low-density lipoprotein (VLDL)-TG
turnover rate was estimated by following the decay of [3H]VLDL-TG.
Finally, postheparin lipoprotein lipase and hepatic lipase activities
were measured at the end of each dietary period. RESULTS--Mean +/- SE
hourly concentrations of glucose (8.0 +/- 0.8 vs. 7.5 +/- 0.7 mmol/l),
insulin (184 +/- 26 vs. 158 +/- 19 pmol/l), and TG (2.8 +/- 0.2 vs.
2.1 +/- 0.2 mmol/l) were higher (P < 0.05-0.001) after the 55% CHO
diet. The 55% CHO diet also led to an increase (P < 0.05-0.01) in the
mean +/- SE hourly concentrations of vitamin A esters in plasma (2.3
+/- 0.3 vs. 1.6 +/- 0.1 mumol/l) and in both the chylomicron (2.0 +/-
0.3 vs. 1.4 +/- 0.1 mumol/l) and chylomicron remnant fractions (0.36
+/- 0.04 vs. 0.14 +/- 0.03 mumol/l). In addition, the VLDL-TG
production rate was higher (17.2 +/- 1.4 vs. 12.8 +/- 1.0 mg.kg-1.h-1,
P < 0.003) and the VLDL-TG fractional catabolic rate lower (0.22 +/-
0.02 to 0.28 +/- 0.02 l/h, P < 0.005) after the 55% CHO diet. Finally,
there was an increase in lipoprotein lipase activity (7.0 +/- 0.8 to
8.1 +/- 0.7 mumol free fatty acids released .ml-1.h-1, P < 0.02) in
response to the CHO-enriched diet. CONCLUSIONS--A low-fat high-CHO
diet in patients with NIDDM led to 1) higher day-long plasma glucose,
insulin, and TG concentrations; 2) postprandial accumulation of
TG-rich lipoproteins of intestinal origin; 3) increased production of
VLDL-TG; and 4) increased postheparin lipoprotein lipase activity.
These data provide a mechanism for the hypertriglyceridemic effect of
CHO-enriched diets in patients with NIDDM and demonstrate that
multiple risk factors for coronary heart disease are accentuated when
these individuals consume diets recommended to reduce this risk.

Publication Types:
Clinical trial
Randomized controlled trial

PMID: 7698030, UI: 95212174

v

Susan

You don't have to be a strict Atkins follower to get the benefit of
reducing carbs.

And chicken, fish, and tofu are all protein, the amount of beef you eat
is up to you.  (But yes, you still have to eat your vegetables:  Mom was
right!)

What you are looking for is a balance that will normalize your glucose
levels, which in and of it self will also help with cholesterol.  (so
will exercise, which you don't mention).    Your meter is your best
weapon in this war... so keep it on hand at all times!

Here's the advice I give all newbies who want to discover their own
Personalized Carb Number:

Sounds like you're planning a move to take control of your diabetes... good
for you.

There is so much to absorb... you don't have to rush into anything.  Begin
by using your best weapon in this war, your meter.   You won't keel over
today, you have time to experiment, test, learn, test and figure out just
how your body and this disease are getting along.  The most important
thing you can do to learn about yourself and diabetes is test test  test.

More than most anything, what you eat will affect your diabetes and
your blood glucose numbers.

And more than anything you eat, carbs will affect your diabetes and
your blood glucose numbers.

So, the most important information you can begin to compile about
yourself, is how your body handles carbs.

This sounds like you would need a low carb food plan right?

You don't... what you need to uncover is YOUR   Personalized Carb Number.

Which actually works better for most everyone.  Because low to one
person is wildly high to another, but waaaaay too low for someone
else.

Is low carb less than 30g a day?   Is it anything less than the
Pyramid reccomendations?

Finding your Personalized Carb Number is easy.

Here's how you can figure out your own Personalized Carb Number.

The single biggest question a diabetic has to answer is:

What do I eat?

Unfortunately, the answer is pretty confusing.

What confounds us all is the fact that different diabetics can get great
results on wildly different food plans.  Some of us here achieve
great blood glucose control eating a high complex carbohydrate diet.
Others find that anything over 75 - 100g of carbs a day is too
much.  Still others are somewhere in between.

At the beginning all of us felt frustrated.  We wanted to be handed
THE way to eat, to ensure our continued health.  But we all
learned that there is no one way.  Each of us had to find our own path,
using the experience of those that went before, but still having
to discover for ourselves how OUR bodies and this disease were coexisting.

Ask questions, but remember each of us discovered on our own what works best
for us.  You can use our experiences as jumping off points, but eventually
you'll work up a successful plan that is yours alone.

What you are looking to discover is how different foods affect you.  As I'm
sure you've read, carbohydrates (sugars, wheat, rice... the things our
Grandmas called "starches") raise blood sugars the most rapidly.  Protein
and fat do raise them, but not as high and much more slowly... so if you're
a T2, generally the insulin your body still makes may take care of the rise.

You might want to try some  experiments.

First:  Eat whatever you've been
currently eating... but write it all down.
Test yourself at the following times:

Upon waking (fasting)
1 hour after each meal
2 hours after each meal
At bedtime

That means 8 x each day.  What you will discover by this is how long
after a meal your highest reading comes... and how fast you return to
"normal".  Also, you may see that a meal that included bread, fruit or
other carbs gives you a higher reading.

Then for the next few days, try to curb your carbs.  Eliminate breads,
cereals, rices, beans, any wheat products, potato, corn, fruit... get all
your carbs from veggies.  Test at the same schedule above.

If you try this for a few days, you may find some pretty damn good
readings.  It's worth a few days to discover.

Eventually you can slowly add back carbs until you see them affecting your
meter.

The thing about this disease... though we share much in common and we
need to
follow certain guidelines... in the end, each of our bodies dictate our
treatment and our success.

The closer we get to non-diabetic numbers, the greater chance we have of
avoiding horrible complications.  The key here is AIM... I know that
everyone is at a different point in their disease... and it is progressive.
But, if we aim for the best numbers and do our best, we give ourselves the
best shot at heath we've got.
That's all we can do.

Here's my opinion on what numbers to aim for, they are non-diabetic numbers.

FBG                          under 100
One hour after meals       under 140
Two hours after meals     under 120

or for those in the mmol parts of the world:

Fasting                              Under 6
One hour after meals         Under 8
Two hours after meals       Under 6.5

Recent studies have indicated that the most important numbers are your
"after meal" numbers. They may be the most indicative of future
complications, especially heart problems.

Listen to your doctor, but you are the leader of your diabetic
care team.  While his /her advice is learned, it is not absolute.   You
will end up knowing much more about your body and how it's handling
diabetes than your doctor will.   Your meter is your best weapon.

Just remember, we're not in a race or a competition with anyone but
ourselves... Play around with your food plan... TEST TEST TEST.  Learn what
foods cause spikes, what foods cause cravings... Use your body as a science
experiment.

You'll read about a lot of different ways people use to control their
diabetes... Many are diametrically opposed. After awhile you'll learn that
there is no one size fits all around here.  Take some time to experiment
and you'll soon discover the plan that works for you.

Best of luck!

Jennifer

Cholesterol usually goes down on Atkins.  Simply put, on Atkins your body
becomes a fat burner instead of a sugar burner.  Cholesterol is fat and it
gets metabolized.  This is why your readings go down on Atkins.  Cholesterol
is an important source of energy for the liver so the liver pulls it from
the blood and lowers the level even more.

Ketones are not necessarily a problem.  The brain for example, can use
ketones for energy.  The state is called benign ketosis.  It is not the same
as ketoacidosis which is potentially lethal.

Atkins is not for everyone.  People with kidney trouble are bad candidates
for Atkins.  The increased protein load does put a strain on the kidneys.
Increased water consumption fixes that but you need healthy kidneys first.

Paul

After my wife's death, I reduced my carbs and increased
my fat.  My cholesterol improved, and I lost a few pounds.

Tha Atkins diets, and similar, have NOT been associated
with worsening cholesterol.

This may be the result of diabetes, and not its combination
with cholesterol.  The PROSPER study, badly done as it was,
gave no clear indication that statins improved the risk of
heart attacks or stroke for diabetics.

The effects of Syndrome X are not that clearly known, and
other than its genetic predisposition, not much is known
about it and how it works.  

It increases ketones, but any successful diet will do this.

What nutrients?  Starch breaks down to glucose, often before
it reaches the stomach.  The useful complex carbohydrates
are the indigestible ones (fiber).

"Pretty satisfying" is a huge factor.  It is extremely difficult to
stick with a non-satisfying diet for very long.  An adequate diet that
you will follow is better than an excellent one you won't.

For a low-carb approach more finely tuned to diabetes check out
"Dr. Bernstein's Revised and Updated Diabetes Solution":
    http://www.diabetes-normalsugars.com/
It is focused on bringing BG down to normal (not just controlled) levels.

Usually not.  For most people total cholesterol stays about the same,
the LDL/HDL ratio improves and triglycerides plummet.  So overall the
cholesterol risk picture improves.

Atkins doesn't ignore glucose.  By eliminating most dietary carbs LC
forces your body to generate its own glucose.  In a diabetic your body
is much more capable of doing this than it is in removing excess
glucose from the blood.  Ketones aren't a problem per se, they are
simply a byproduct of fat metabolism and absent excess glucose, your
body burns fat.  Diabetic ketoacidosis includes several other factors
that are unlikely to occur on a LC diet.

That depends, are you still a "dedicated vegetable-hater"?  Atkins
is a meat and veggies diet.  As long as you are eating plenty of
veggies, non-veggie carbs don't have much to offer.

You need a proper food diet. I follow a food plan and take the meals
accordingly.

I found a link in the net which contain very useful  information like
what to eat, pyramid plan, encyclopedia of all diseases, calorie table
etc.
I think it will really helpful.
http://www.medical-health-care-information.com/

"eating all that meat and fat" is FUD spouted by Atkins-haters.
I recommending reading one of the guy's books and evaluating
what HE wrote, not what his enemies say he wrote.

Yes, you need the nutrients in various veggies.  Coincidentally,
low-carb veggies often have more nutrients than high-carb veggies.

[...]

Not likely, but it does happen to some folks. My diet would probably be
classified as a modified Atkins at 50% lean protein, 35% low-glycemic
carbs, and 15% fat.

Prior to starting that diet, my total-C = 168, LDL = 114, HDL = 42, and
trigycerides = 77.

After three years on that diet, my total-C = 249, LDL = 170, HDL = 54,
and trigycerides = 123. Lost about 15lbs.

I was a bit alarmed by those results, so I reverted back to the diet I
had before the experiment began, except I kept the carbs low glycemic
with lots of fiber. About 6 mo afterward my total-C = 181, LDL = 119,
HDL = 43, and trigycerides = 69. Pounds have stayed off, too.

p.s. I'm pre-diabetic (IGT) with great glucose control and a recent A1c
of 5.4%. :)