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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / March 2006Turmeric question
I was advised to add turmeric to my diet. Does it help / hurt a T2? What is the best way to use it? I have the powder.....not the capsules. TIA >I was advised to add turmeric to my diet. >Does it help / hurt a T2? >What is the best way to use it? >I have the powder.....not the capsules. > >TIA I add it as a spice to stir-fries and add it to various other spices/ingredients to make curries (cummin, cloves, cinnamon, ground coriander, ginger, garlic etc). Sometimes I add a pinch to a beaten egg when making an omelette, or to a gravy when making a stew. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 2x500mg  SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. >I was advised to add turmeric to my diet. >Does it help / hurt a T2? >What is the best way to use it? >I have the powder.....not the capsules. >TIA I have read several articles that suggest that turmeric can help a T2, but this should perhaps be taken with a grain of lite salt. <g> You can also find several articles that suggest cinnamon can help. When the cinnamon advice was tested and reported by people here it was all over the map. It helped some people. It had no effect on some people. Some people got worse. The only sound advice on cinnamon was that you had to try it for yourself and measure, measure, measure how it affected YOUR blood sugar. Then continue it if it helped, otherwise not. I think the same can be said for turmeric. See how it affects YOU by repeated testing, then decide for yourself if it is worth continuing. The main property of the active ingredient with respect to diabetes (curcumin) is as an anti-inflamation agent. Inflamation seems tied to insulin resistance. Reducing overall inflamation reduces insulin resistance, making your body better able to make use of the insulin you produce. That's the theory, anyway. We haven't had enough people in this group report on using turmeric to give you an overall success rate. As for use - turmeric is often used in curry dishes. Undoubtedly people with more experience cooking can tell you about other uses. If you don't care for the taste, you could get empty gelatin capsules from a health food store and fill them up. > I have read several articles that suggest that turmeric can help a T2, > but this should perhaps be taken with a grain of lite salt. <g> No - black pepper, they're synergistic : ) Nicky. SignatureA1c 10.5/5.4/<6 T2 DX 05/2004 1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine 95/74/72Kg "Nicky" <ukc802466929@btconnect.com> wrote in news:48tlh4FlvdfrU1 @individual.net: >> I have read several articles that suggest that turmeric can help a T2, >> but this should perhaps be taken with a grain of lite salt. <g> > > No - black pepper, they're synergistic : ) > > Nicky. I've heard that before, but I've forgotten in what way they're synergistic. Do you have any cites or other information you could share? Chak SignatureOur scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men. --Martin Luther King Jr. > "Nicky" <ukc802466929@btconnect.com> wrote in news:48tlh4FlvdfrU1 > @individual.net: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I've heard that before, but I've forgotten in what way they're > synergistic. Do you have any cites or other information you could share? Not really - this from a post Alan made a while back: " Two interesting snippets that stuck in my memory (but not their sources) were that the quantity of turmeric didn't matter a lot as long as you had some, and that adding a dash of cracked pepper had a symbiotic effect. " And one of Quentin's: " It occurred to me as I was strolling around Farmers' Market that turmeric belongs with a trio of other spices; garlic, ginger, garlic and freshly ground black pepper. Ginger has other compounds that anti-inflammatory besides the curcuminoids. Black pepper aids the absorption of the curcuminoids from turmeric and ginger. " Oh! Yes, I do - I've just found one of Matti's posts. Thanks, Google Desktop : ) Nicky. Well, piperine does help the absorption of curcumin in turmeric and EGCG in green tea: Shoba G, Joy D, Joseph T, Majeed M, Rajendran R, Srinivas PS. Influence of piperine on the pharmacokinetics of curcumin in animals and human volunteers. Planta Med. 1998 May;64(4):353-6. PMID: 9619120 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=9 619120&dopt=Abstract> Lambert JD, Hong J, Kim DH, Mishin VM, Yang CS. Piperine enhances the bioavailability of the tea polyphenol (-)-epigallocatechin-3-gallate in mice. J Nutr. 2004 Aug;134(8):1948-52. PMID: 15284381 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/8/1948> But these good news come with the caution: piperine may also enhance the absorption of some drugs and potentiate their effects. Its effects in this are similar to those of grapefruit juice. They both inhibit P-glycoprotein and cytochrome P450 enzyme CYP3A4. References: Bhardwaj RK, Glaeser H, Becquemont L, Klotz U, Gupta SK, Fromm MF. Piperine, a major constituent of black pepper, inhibits human P-glycoprotein and CYP3A4. J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2002 Aug;302(2):645-50. PMID: 12130727 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/302/2/645> Flanagan D. Understanding the grapefruit-drug interaction. Gen Dent. 2005 Jul-Aug;53(4):282-5; quiz 286. PMID: 16158798 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=16158798> "Grapefruit components inhibit CYP3A4 drug oxidation and P-glycoprotein transportation, allowing more systemic drug bioavailability." Zhou S, Lim LY, Chowbay B. Herbal modulation of P-glycoprotein. Drug Metab Rev. 2004 Feb;36(1):57-104. Review. PMID: 15072439 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15072439> Delgoda R, Westlake AC. Herbal interactions involving cytochrome p450 enzymes: a mini review. Toxicol Rev. 2004;23(4):239-49. Review. PMID: 15898829 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15898829> So piperine and grapefruit inhibit both the drug transporter P-glycoprotein, which blocks the absorption in the gut, and the intestinal cytochrome P-450 3A4 system (specifically: CYP3A4 - mediated drug metabolism), which is responsible for the first-pass metabolism of many medications. In other words piperine and grapefruit may potentiate the effects of drugs, whose absorption may be blocked by P-glycoprotein, and which are metabolized with the help of CYP3A4 enzyme. This inhibition happens in the small intestine, so more of the drug will stay intact and get absorbed. If you use some medication, don't take piperine or piperine containing curcumin supplement within several hours before or after taking the medication, unless you are absolutely sure that it has no interaction with piperine. And consult the doctor, who prescribed the drug, before even considering taking piperine containing supplements. Having said that, piperine (and grapefruit) is a natural substance and ethnic groups using considerable amount of pepper in their cooking, will almost always have a certain amount of piperine or its metabolites in their intestine and serum, which may affect the effect of drugs they are using. Links about P-glycoprotein and cytochrome P450 system: P-glycoprotein <http://www.mhc.com/PGP/PgpMain.HTML>: "What are P-glycoproteins? P-glycoproteins are part of a larger family of efflux transporters found in the gut, gonads, kidneys, biliary system, brain and other organs. They appear to have developed as a mechanism to protect the body from harmful substances. Using ATP as an energy source, they transport certain hydrophobic substances in the following directions: * into the gut * out of the brain * into urine * into bile * out of the gonads * out of other organs PGPs play a large role in the distribution and elimination of many clinically important therapeutic substances.. Prescription and OTC drugs, foods and substances made by the body may be inhibitors and/or inducers of these transporters. Some drugs like cyclosporin are both substrates and inhibitors of PGP, other drugs like nifedipine are inhibitors only and some drugs like digoxin are only substrates. Since PGPs block absorption in the gut, they should be considered part of the "first-pass effect". In fact, they can "set up" or act as "gatekeepers" for later P450 cytochrome actions. If one drug is a substrate of both PGP and CYP3A4 (both found in close proximity in the intestinal wall), and a second drug is added that is an inhibitor of both PGP and CYP 3A4 (e.g., ketoconazole, erythromycin, mibefradil), then the first drug will be allowed in increased amounts. Since CYP3A4 is inhibited, levels of unmetabolized drug will enter the blood. The effect of PGP blockade is to "open the gates" so that the later actions of CYP3A4 inhibition will be increased." CYTOCHROME P450 <http://www.medhelp.org/glossary2/new/gls_1530.htm> Clinically significant drug interactions What you need to know before writing prescriptions Michael D. Johnson, PharmD; Gary Newkirk, MD; John R. White Jr, PharmD VOL 105 / NO 2 / FEBRUARY 1999 / POSTGRADUATE MEDICINE http://www.postgradmed.com/issues/1999/02_99/johnson.htm Cytochrome P450 <http://www.anaesthetist.com/physiol/basics/metabol/cyp/cyp.htm> Overview of Drug Interactions http://www.uspharmacist.com/oldformat.asp?url=newlook/files/feat/mar00drugintera ctions.htm Cytochrome P450 3A Subfamily drug interactions http://www.uspharmacist.com/oldformat.asp?url=newlook/files/feat/acf2ed6.htm The Cytochrome P450 Enzymes <http://www.ama-assn.org/special/hiv/newsline/briefing/cytochro.htm> Drug-Interactions.com <http://medicine.iupui.edu/flockhart/> Cytochrome P450 <http://www.mall-net.com/mcs/p450.html> Cytochrome P450 Enzymes <http://home.earthlink.net/~cpardee/> Cytochrome P450 Homepage <http://drnelson.utmem.edu/CytochromeP450.html> Cytochrome P450 isoform-specific in vitro methods to predict drug metabolism and interactions Päivi Taavitsainen Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology, University of Oulu Academic Dissertation to be presented with the assent of the Faculty of Medicine, University of Oulu, for public discussion in the Auditorium of the Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology, on February 24th, 2001, at 12 noon. <http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514259009/> SignatureMatti Narkia "Nicky" <ukc802466929@btconnect.com> wrote in news:48to2tFkksthU1 @individual.net: > Ginger has other compounds that anti-inflammatory besides the > curcuminoids. Black pepper aids the absorption of the curcuminoids > from turmeric and ginger. <snip volumes of info> Wow, that's a lot. Thanks! Chak SignatureOur scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men. --Martin Luther King Jr. This post not CC'd by email On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:16:20 GMT, quester@infionline.net (Harold Groot) wrote: >>I was advised to add turmeric to my diet. >>Does it help / hurt a T2? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I have read several articles that suggest that turmeric can help a T2, >but this should perhaps be taken with a grain of lite salt. <g> G'day G'day Harold, You post puzzles me. I have no idea what articles you have read. Please give at least two sites to support your wild generalisation. Your conclusion could be quite logical but appear to be based on some limited premise. For starters "help" is completely undefined in your statement. Do you mean reduce blood sugar levels? If you are then it is possible to make some sense of your wild and sweeping generalisation. Turmeric is a powerful anti-inflammatory and silent inflammatory disease is one aspect of T2 diabetes that is often not fully addressed but needs to be. >You can also find several articles that suggest cinnamon can help. >When the cinnamon advice was tested and reported by people here it was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >it affected YOUR blood sugar. Then continue it if it helped, >otherwise not. OK, it seem you making an argument by analogy. I often use analogies for teaching purposes. I can that, that is your intention here also. Though the similar situation with cinnamon may have suggested to you that a similar situation could exist with turmeric, if is not proof. There is some research suggesting cinnamon has some efficacy as an antihyperglycemic substance. The research on cinnamon is rather limited and appears to me to be very hyped. Your description of the results reported by posters on asd is IMHO accurate. It is very much, YMMV. What I think it really important here as an aid to gauging the validity of various research results is to look a http://scholar.google.com and compare the number of hits one gets for cinnamon and turmeric with various diabetic relevant strings. OK, I using the approach that made Google millions. IMHO the potential of cinnamon has been picked up on by relatively few researchers compared to turmeric. The research on turmeric goes on and on and on because other scientists believe in its efficacy. >I think the same can be said for turmeric. See how it affects YOU by >repeated testing, then decide for yourself if it is worth continuing. This will ONLY test if it affects blood glucose. Elevated blood glucose is one symptom of T2 diabetes. There are for instance dysfunctions in lipid metabolism. There are dysfunctions in the predominant fuel used by the heart. The list goes on. >The main property of the active ingredient with respect to diabetes >(curcumin) is as an anti-inflamation agent. Inflamation seems tied to >insulin resistance. Reducing overall inflamation reduces insulin >resistance, making your body better able to make use of the insulin >you produce. That's the theory, anyway. That is one hypothesis. I don't know whose hypothesis it is but it addresses only one aspect of being T2. Another aspect is the creation of amyloid plaque. Turmeric is a powerful inhibitor of amyloid plaque formation. It is thought to be one reason why areas of the world associated with low levels of Alzheimer's disease are often those where turmeric is grown and eaten almost as a vegetable. >We haven't had enough people in this group report on using turmeric > to give you an overall success rate. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >you don't care for the taste, you could get empty gelatin capsules >from a health food store and fill them up. The turmeric used in cooking has about 5% curcuminoids. The powder used in tablets is standardized to have 95% curcuminoids. That is nineteen times as concentrated as in the powder blended into curry powder. Best wishes, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin This post not CC'd by email On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:16:20 GMT, quester@infionline.net (Harold Groot) wrote: >>I was advised to add turmeric to my diet. >>Does it help / hurt a T2? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I have read several articles that suggest that turmeric can help a T2, >but this should perhaps be taken with a grain of lite salt. <g> G'day G'day Harold, I wish to apologize for my rather grumpy previous response to your post. What I should have said was that even if turmeric has NO benefit what so ever in respect to lowering blood glucose, it has IMHO much relevance to T2 diabetics in reducing the risks associated with 1. Cataract formation. 2. Silent inflammatory disease, an important factor in coronary vascular disease. 3. A syndrome whose name I've forgotten that affects co-ordination of the fingers in diabetics 4. Amyloid plaque formation found in Alzheimer's disease ... where people forget the names of various syndromes <grin> and the pancreas in people with T2 5. A few other things to found at. http://www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsHerbs/Turmericch.html Best wishes, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin Hello Quentin, I hope this finds you feeling well. Just a remark in passing... sometimes it seems that the very mention of the word "supplements" brings a very negative response here. I've seen accusations of spamming here, for example (which may or may not be true) as soon as the word appears. I imagine this promotes some confusion for those who are unfamiliar with the subject and it must be difficult for some to discern which are indeed relevant to diabetes. There is, as I'm sure you know, a huge bank of knowledge, historically, regarding herbal substances and their efficaciousness. For one thing, there are the ancient ayurvedic practices, and, here in the UK, for example, many tried and tested safe remedies which are hundreds of years old. Nearby where I live there is an Elizabethan garden of herbal remedies and a research herbarium. We take certain things such as aspirin for granted, which is derived from a plant source. Similarly, metformin was (although I believe it's produced synthetically these days) originally derived from French lilac flowers :-) And so on. I realise that double-blind studies are the order of the day here ;-) but I do think that people's anecdotal experiences are useful to hear as well. Ultimately, of course, people have to make up their own minds. Thanks, as ever, for your informative posts. (P.S. I can recommend Gingko biloba for the memory problem :-) Also excellent for circulation) Best wishes, Amy This post not CC'd by email On 29 Mar 2006 03:22:11 -0800, "Amy" <tesselate@googlemail.com> wrote: >Hello Quentin, I hope this finds you feeling well. > >Just a remark in passing... sometimes it seems that the very mention of >the word "supplements" brings a very negative response here. G'day G'day Amy, Yes. Sometimes you could sell the froth and foam to a fire brigade. There are many reasons. Here are some. 1. Supplements in many countries are governed by different regulations from medicines and sometimes even food. They slip through the cracks as it were. 2. Supplements are often sold with exalted claims for their efficacy based on less than a handful of scientific studies. If you go to http://scholar.google.com and enter your favourite supplement as a search string you will find hits. Some will be for adverse reactions associated with their use. Some will be for limited trials or rodent studies. IMHO the important thing is that for many of them you will notice that the research is dated. There was a spurt of interest and then nothing. Somehow the early zeal died. Other researchers did not buy into the supplements being particularly efficacious and didn't waste time on them. I'm not telling you what you will find. It will depend on what supplement you decide to follow up. The exercise will help develop discrimination on what to believe. 3. Many naturally occurring substances eg lutein, lycopene etc have undoubted efficacy. Notice that I said naturally occurring substances, not supplements. For reasons that are too numerous for me to spend time on typing up tonight so often the naturally occurring form in food works. The supplements do NOT. In some cases I haven't the slightest idea why the supplement forms don't work, all I know is that they don't. IMHO it is a better bet to buy quality food than to buy lower quality food and attempt to redress the lack of quality with supplementation. > I've seen >accusations of spamming here, for example (which may or may not be >true) as soon as the word appears. If you say so, my guess is it happened. Amy, I don't remember and aren't particularly interested. In New Zealand when I was a kid we had a saying, "Today's headline news, tomorrows fish and chip wrapper." The people who maintain the respect of others around here forget the comments of the few people who delight in foaming at the mouth and get on with the central purpose of the group. >I imagine this promotes some >confusion for those who are unfamiliar with the subject and it must be [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >herbal remedies and a research herbarium. We take certain things such >as aspirin for granted, which is derived from a plant source. Today I gave a lecture on teaching people who have Asperger's syndrome. I like my Asperger's syndrome students. They are normal and different all at the same time. They turn up on time and never over run their time with one last question. OK, its late and I'm rambling a bit. The point is what one learns from teaching such students is immediately applicable to teaching normal people. There is no need here to debate the whole issue of ancient ayurvedic practices and other CONCEPTS. We need only look at one specific EXAMPLE and let others figure out the generalisation for themselves. OK. Let's look a little more closely at the "asprin" is from a plant source. That's true depending on how we use the word "derived". It does not mean we should trust herbal medicines. In fact it implies exactly the opposite. Asprin is a DERIVATIVE of substances found in willow. The DERIVATIVE is called acetyl salicylic acid. The derivative was manufactured to avoid problems with stomach ulceration. As most people know it wasn't entirely successful. It is better though than the raw material. http://starryskies.com/articles/dln/1-01/asprin.html It could be that they have this bit of chemistry wrong. If so you will find the cites and put me right. >Similarly, metformin was (although I believe it's produced >synthetically these days) originally derived from French lilac flowers >:-) And so on. >I realise that double-blind studies are the order of the day here ;-) They are because people want to live. >but I do think that people's anecdotal experiences are useful to hear >as well. Care to share your anecdotal evidence on eating French lilac flowers? 1. Did you find the amount of active ingredient varied from season to season? When was it most effective? When was it least effective? 2. How did you decide on how to make a necessary adjustments 3. What did you do in the off season when there were no flowers. >Ultimately, of course, people have to make up their own minds. I'm sure they will. That is what I like most about people on asd. People here are for the most part are highly successful. There is a reason. IMHO it is because they use discernment and choose courses of action more wisely that the general feral crowd of T2 diabetics. >Thanks, as ever, for your informative posts. Thanks. I'm glad you have found them informative. You might not be thanking me tonight but on reflection you may come to treasure this post more than any other. After all it up to you as an adult to be responsible for the decisions you make and perhaps my response tonight will have helped you rethink something your thought had been thought through to a final conclusion. >(P.S. I can recommend Gingko biloba for the memory problem :-) Also >excellent for circulation) > >Best wishes, >Amy SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin Hello again Quentin, I think you perhaps misread the intention of my post. It does not matter. Just to clarify, I was making the point that metformin is essentially a plant-derived substance, i.e., effectively, a herbal remedy. "G. [Galega] officinalis (Goat's rue; French lilac; Italian fitch) is rich in guanidine. The plant's long-recognized hypoglycemic properties led eventually to the synthesis of the biguanide compound metformin." from: http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/full/108/8/1105 All the best to you. Amy This post not CC'd by email On 29 Mar 2006 05:34:43 -0800, "Amy" <tesselate@googlemail.com> wrote: >Hello again Quentin, > >I think you perhaps misread the intention of my post. G'day G'day Amy, That could be so. I'm sure you had and still have a positive intention in posting. This is a little like a scientific experiment. It is easier to be clear as a reader about what your attentions weren't than exactly what they were. Obviously you weren't spamming etc. That leaves a number of positive intentions eg inviting an open discussion about supplements in general or hypothesizing that the same substances that are found in modern drugs are found in herbal remedies so they should be equally acceptable. You can see how open the discussion is to misinterpretations of intention. For instance you may be putting supplements and herbal remedies in the same basket. I don't. This morning I took several supplements for inflammation, notably turmeric standardised to 95% curcuminoids, some MSM and a 500 mg tablet of bromelain. A week ago I had one hell of a rash in response to the generic form of Voltarin. The anti-inflammatory was prescribed to help me with two fractured vertebrae. The vertebrae were fractured as a result of passing out due to a side effect of Norflex, a drug given to reduce muscle spasm. Put simply, I have good reason to be aware of the side effects inherent in mainstream pharmaceuticals and not to regard them as a panacea. > It does not matter. If your intent was to open up a discussion on supplements in general then we have a long way to go. >Just to clarify, I was making the point that metformin is >essentially a plant-derived substance, i.e., effectively, a herbal [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >properties led eventually to the synthesis of the biguanide compound >metformin." OK, I am little puzzled. Something doesn't strike me as entirely congruent here. Goat's rue is available over the counter in New Zealand. Most pharmacies stock it on one of their lower shelves. People buy it because of its reputation for helping blokes get a hard on. Now if the biguanide compound is the same as guanidine in Goat's rue then I personally would have expected to have witnessed a host of blokes posting here with very broad grins. I haven't. Am I to assume the metformin in inferior to the Goat's rue? Am I to assume you take Goat's rue, purely for medicinal purposes? If you are not taking either Goat's rue or metformin then this conversation has entered a very strange place that I feel uncomfortable with. As I see asd it is like a life raft in a sea of potential complications. We place our trust in one another because we know we would share a common fate if we get it wrong. What though if one person really wasn't dependent on the supplies in the life raft and was advocating various courses of action they themselves were not dependent on. You can see that, that person and more particularly their opinions would be treated with some distrust. >from: > >http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/full/108/8/1105 > >All the best to you. >Amy Best wishes, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin Dear Quentin, I posted with two very simple, ordinary ideas which I will restate: 1. When a poster uses the word "supplement" or "herb" this should not automatically render them The Enemy and a target for attack. 2. Many common medicines, such as metformin, are derived from herbs/flowers/etc. That's all I was saying. Yes, I do take metformin, but that was not really my point. And, for obvious reasons, I really wouldn't know about blokes, Goat's rue, and the desirable effect, so to speak :-) ...although I am intrigued, if it is indeed the same plant. I was not attempting to open up a huge discussion at all, although I would be more than interested if there were one. I am not particularly advocating any specific herbs or supplements. And I have no idea what I've said which could possibly arouse suspicion or distrust. More importantly: I am very sorry to read about your fractures and also the bad reactions to pharmaceuticals. I sincerely hope that they heal quickly. With best wishes, Amy This post not CC'd by email On 29 Mar 2006 14:56:01 -0800, "Amy" <tesselate@googlemail.com> wrote: >Dear Quentin, I posted with two very simple, ordinary ideas which I >will restate: G'day G'day Ami, Sometimes restating helps. >1. When a poster uses the word "supplement" or "herb" this should not >automatically render them The Enemy and a target for attack. That's cool with me. Some people do respond that way. I don't. The post that originated this subthread was addressed to me. My position is pretty simple. Medicine, diet, exercise, supplements and herbs to name a few things have to be dealt with in a specific instance by instance methodology. Pharmaceuticals sometimes are beneficial and sometimes disastrous. The same could said of exercise and so on. >2. Many common medicines, such as metformin, are derived from >herbs/flowers/etc. This is about the only area where we have any conflict. The sticking point is the word "derived." Is there any benefit in my restating what I have already restated twice, that derivation has lead to the active ingredients found in the herbs/flowers/etc being modified to form SAFER compounds. >That's all I was saying. Yes, I do take metformin, but that was not >really my point. Thank you. IMHO you establish my point. When push comes to shove most people choose the lower risk associated with standardised DERIVATIVES of compounds found in herbs/flowers/etc than to take the original herbs/flowers/etc. Some people wouldn't even be aware of the origins of the many pharmaceutical drugs. You are. You know which herb/flowers/etc the original chemicals are to be found. Even so you choose the pharmaceutical version of the drug. IMHO that is sensible though a little puzzling given your philosophical position. >And, for obvious reasons, I really wouldn't know >about blokes, Goat's rue, and the desirable effect, so to speak :-) >...although I am intrigued, if it is indeed the same plant. Actually it seems I am in error. It would have injected some humour into the thread if I hadn't been but it seems I am. The one the blokes buy is Horny Goat Weed (Epimedium Sagggitatum) The herb you were referring to is Goat's Rue (Galega Officinalis). http://www.thehealthierlife.co.uk/article/2843/goats-rue.html >I was not attempting to open up a huge discussion at all, although I >would be more than interested if there were one. I am not particularly >advocating any specific herbs or supplements. And I have no idea what >I've said which could possibly arouse suspicion or distrust. You appear to advocating herbs for some philosophical reason relating to people having choice, yet actually take the derivative chemical (a different chemical) produced pharmaceutically. To me there is an incongruency between what you are saying and what you are doing that I don't yet fully understand. It is probably unimportant. My take of the situation is that once we strip our positions of words, the decisions we live by are most likely very similar. We both use some supplements and some pharmaceuticals. I might be more reluctant to use herbs/flowers etc than you but the difference is probably not significant if your choice concerning metformin is representative. If you feel like commenting on it that is fine. >More importantly: I am very sorry to read about your fractures and >also the bad reactions to pharmaceuticals. I sincerely hope that they >heal quickly. Thank you. Pain has been a faithful companion for several weeks now though not a pleasant one. Adjustments were made to include changes in break through medication and to add Voltarin (an anti-inflammatory which fortunately has been stopped.) I have just begun using bromelain as an anti-inflammatory. I seem a little better today but that might well be a coincidence. >With best wishes, >Amy And best wishes to you. SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin Hello Quentin, I think, to be honest, my only concern throughout this discussion has been that you may be interpreting my comments in such a way as to misrepresent me. So, just to be clear: I am neither a herbalist nor an expert in herbal medicine. I do not hold strong views, either for or against, regarding pharmaceuticals vs. herbal remedies. My only statement throughout has been that, historically and presently, there is a certain amount of interplay between the two, and that there is a wealth of knowledge regarding the medicinal properties of herbs which (imho) should not be dismissed out of hand. I also have no dispute with your definition of "derivative" and, if you refer to my first post, you will find, regarding metformin, that I said: "metformin was (although I believe it's produced synthetically these days) originally derived from French lilac flowers " Note: synthetically; *originally* derived Therefore we are not disagreeing at all. -------------------- You wrote: "You appear to advocating herbs for some philosophical reason relating to people having choice, yet actually take the derivative chemical (a different chemical) produced pharmaceutically. To me there is an incongruency between what you are saying and what you are doing that I don't yet fully understand. It is probably unimportant. My take of the situation is that once we strip our positions of words, the decisions we live by are most likely very similar. We both use some supplements and some pharmaceuticals. I might be more reluctant to use herbs/flowers etc than you but the difference is probably not significant if your choice concerning metformin is representative." -------------------------------- I am not advocating herbs per se. Even if I were, I would not see this as a philosophical position. It would simply be a matter of choice. All I am advocating, with regard to this group, is that when someone posts their personal experience with herbs or supplements, that the poster is not treated to derision, or worse. That was not, and is not, intended as a personal comment to you, but as a general comment. There is no incongruity in what I am saying, because I haven't made, and won't make, any claims. As to the question in your mind regarding me, metformin and its herbal alternative, thank you for the link. While I am interested to know of the existence of a herbal alternative, it is not something I would pursue at present, given that I have only been taking metformin for two months. In any case, regarding metformin, any comment I would make would necessarily have to be pending HbA1c results. In short, I don't consider myself to be a candidate for experimenting with herbal alternatives as a means of treatment. As you rightly point out, that is my choice. So... are we clear? I really really hope so :-) I hope that the bromelain is effective for you. Take care, Quentin. Best wishes, Amy This post not CC'd by email On 30 Mar 2006 12:39:19 -0800, "Amy" <tesselate@googlemail.com> wrote: >Hello Quentin, > >I think, to be honest, my only concern throughout this discussion has >been that you may be interpreting my comments in such a way as to >misrepresent me. G'day G'day Ami, I hope not. > So, just to be clear: I am neither a herbalist nor an expert in >herbal medicine. I haven't ever thought that you were. >I do not hold strong views, either for >or against, regarding pharmaceuticals vs. herbal remedies. You haven't used any words that suggests you held strong views on the matter. >My only >statement throughout has been that, historically and presently, there >is a certain amount of interplay between the two, and that there is a >wealth of knowledge regarding the medicinal properties of herbs which >(imho) should not be dismissed out of hand. I'm fine with that. There seems to be no reason to dismiss such information out of hand or to accept it without the same close scrutiny that is given to any other medicinal approach current today. >I also have no dispute with your definition of "derivative" and, if you >refer to my first post, you will find, regarding metformin, that I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Therefore we are not disagreeing at all. Oh. That might well be the wellspring of continued of discussion. As you point out in another post the chemical in French lilac flowers is NOT the same compound as found in metformin. True it is a related compound. As I have pointed out the salicylic acid found in willow and some other plants does have analgesic properties. The chemists produced a NEW chemical from salicylic acid called acetyl salicylic acid which also had analgesic properties. There was an enormous difference between the raw salicylic acid and its derivative. The salicylic acid caused mouth ulcers. The acetyl salicylic acid did not. Some people who do hold strong views about the superiority of "natural" remedies allege that the herbal forms are without side effects while forms manufactured by the pharmaceutical industry have side effects. You didn't make such statements. It is one reason I don't consider you as holding strong views on the matter etc even if you may have thought that I did. Since the thread was public it behooved me to make clear a general position on the matter. Although it has not as yet registered, I have been helping you, by discussing the relevant matters in a moderate manner. This was a pre-emptive maneuver to ensure the discussion that you would like to have occurring could take place. If had not jumped in and put the issues on the table there was a risk that the sharks who leap at words like Herbal Remedies and Supplements would have responded in a manner that would have meant the discussion would not have taken place. Salicylic acid and acetyl salicylic acid can both be synthesised. Salicylic acid regardless of whether it is crystallized out of willow sap or synthetically manufactured will be salicylic acid and it will cause mouth ulcers as well as being an analgesic. Acetyl salicylic acid is mostly synthesized and has less problems with causing ulceration. >-------------------- >You wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >someone posts their personal experience with herbs or supplements, that >the poster is not treated to derision, or worse. That hasn't happened with me. It happens. I decided to be proactive and see what would materialize if we had a conversation where it didn't happen. >That was not, and is >not, intended as a personal comment to you, but as a general comment. I accept that, that is the case. >There is no incongruity in what I am saying, because I haven't made, >and won't make, any claims. As to the question in your mind regarding [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >experimenting with herbal alternatives as a means of treatment. As you >rightly point out, that is my choice. I agree it is your choice, just as it is mine. We share a view which isn't entirely common on asd. The purpose of the discussion from my side was to support you in making wise choices. My chief concern was that you might be using the phrase "derived from" without recognising that it means "chemically altered" Soap for instance is derived from lard. Lard is a reactant, soap is one of the products of the chemical reaction when lard is cooked up with sodium hydroxide (caustic soda) It isn't a good argument for suggesting an equal choice exists between bathing with lard and with soap or for that matter caustic soda and with soap. Lard may appeal as more natural but there is no justification whatever in thinking it would be as good a saponification agent as soap on account of soap being derived from lard. >So... are we clear? I really really hope so :-) So do I. Even if it is not, please write to me privately. IMHO by now we are probably boring the socks of most readers. >I hope that the bromelain is effective for you. Thanks. It might well be. The situation is complicated by other factors so I am uncertain. >Take care, Quentin. > >Best wishes, >Amy And best wishes to you, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin Thank you, Quentin. I do understand all that you are saying. I would just like to put something up here which I happened to read today and like very much, by way of conclusion. It's a trifle long, but hopefully, and for any other readers also, it won't be too boring :-) Best wishes to you, and all here, Amy "... And finally, and above all, let it be remembered by both parties, and indeed by controversialists on all subjects, that every speculative error which boasts a multitude of advocates, has its golden as well as its dark side; that there is always some Truth connected with it, the exclusive attention to which has misled the Understanding [...]. Let it be remembered, that no Assailant of an Error can reasonably hope to be listened to by its Advocates, who has not proved to them that he has seen the disputed subject in the same point of view, and is capable of contemplating it with the same feelings as themselves: (for why should we abandon a cause at the persuasions of one who is ignorant of the reasons which have attached us to it?) Let it be remembered, that to write, however ably, merely to convince those who are already convinced, displays but the courage of a boaster; and in any subject to rail against the evil before we have enquired for the good, and to exasperate the passions of those who think with us, by caricaturing the opinions and blackening the motives of our antagonists, is to make the Understanding the pander of the passions." Samuel Taylor Coleridge (excerpt from "The Friend") |
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