Why do you feel you need to stick to a vegetable diet?
The typical diet a T2 follows here is a moderate carb diet.
i.e. meat/fish/eggs are all allowed considered good - they don't
raise your sugars post prandial. The main things to cut down
as far as BG's go are
rice, pasta, bread, potatoes, sugar, sugar drinks, fruits, fruit
juices, crackers, cookies etc - mostly the the high carb stuff.
Cutting sugar is not enough - a sugar free cookie may be high
in carbs & will spike you.

Testing 1 hour & 2 hours after a meal will let you know how
the particular meal is affecting you, so you can adjust accordingly.
For a beginner, IMHO, testing 1 hr & 2 hrs after a meal is very
important.

And you can lose weight on a moderate carb diet just as well.

There are a lot of others here who are more eloquent than I,
so I'll let them welcome you & also provide you with the
neccessary links.

JB,  welcome to our group.  I have never met a person who said I will
have a piece of acorn squash over that chocolate truffle.  We all work
out own way.  For me it is not about deprivation.  I am the queen of the
portion control.  For example, this morning I had one half of a
chocolate chip pancake, mozzarella one egg cheese omelet, a tablespoon
of home fries and one quarter of a toasted scooped out bagel

Before eating I was 107 and two hours later I was 117.

I take oral meds , and medium carb I guess.  I test quite often, at
least six to eight times a day so that I know what the food I eat is
doing to me.

If a person cannot control portion size, then it is probably best to
avoid it.  I cannot have a package of cookies in the house.  They call
my name until every last cookie is gone.  I çan have a cadbury dark
chocolate bar in the house for at least a week,  because I can portion
that.

I eat pasta, potatoes rice , beans and other starches,  but in small
portions.  Others think they would rather not have than have the portion
sizes that I do, but it works for me.

You need to find a plan that works for you.  I have been at this for six
years now so I have more leeway.  You are a beginner and need to get
into excellent control before you got that route.

Let us know how you do.  everyone is different.

Loretta

--
In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.

[snip]

Welcome to the group for people who don't want to join.

There are diabetic recipes on alt.food.diabetic .

Hi JB,

If you haven't already, you might find this article a useful read:

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-3-16.pdf

Good luck.

Dear JB,

There aren't too many other occasions in life I can think of  where
welcoming a new comer  to a group you belong to is so unpleasant. And
yet after accepting my membership here for 9 moths I am convinced that
how you traverse rest of your life will depend not on "It happened for
the best," but rather, "How can I make the best of what happened?"

Your search for the meaning of life has now expanded on several
different planes. Each plane requires you to dig deep and ask some
fundamental quality of life questions the answers to these questions
are meaningful only within your context. You and your immediate love
ones will play even larger role in bringing new insights and new joys
to your family unit. Above all you will quickly learn that sooner you
get a handle on going straight to the drivers seat and start driving
the sooner you will feel in control of where you are headed and what
path you will choose.

Go over this NG, learn how different people have dealt this news in
past. I suspect many of the questions you would ask, have been answered
already with enough pros and cons that you will feel even more lost.
But some where in between are ideas you will uncover that will work for
you. Ideas that are perfect fit. Poke around.

As has been advised to you, exercise is major part of the effort. If
you think you can handle it you already are way ahead in this game.

If you don't have a good meter to check your BG you may want to spend
some time doing some research and getting one that will work for you.
It is the best feedback mechanism available to give you an idea on how
different food groups are affecting your BG spikes etc. A personal word
of caution: Think of diet change you can handle for rest of your life.
Thinking of diet that works in short term will prove to be a bit short
sighted.

Above all don't panic.

Enjoy every day in its fullest. We will all help you as much as we can.
Just be aware that our help will be biased by our outlook to life and
our own ideas of life itself. What you can be rest assured is we all
would genuinely want to help you!

Anil

J.B. wrote in message ...

  I am about the most fervent anti-heart attack nag on the diabetic
newsgroups.

(My father died from his second heart attack at age 56,  my mother had TWO
heart attacks before she was 46).

Sorry to say,  but premature heart attack is one of the most alarming
symptoms of Type 2 diabetes and nothing in your post suggests that you are
exempt.

Some remarks on the heart attack problem.  Make of them what you will:

 1.  The diabetes med "Metformin" has demonstrated anti-heart attack
effects on obese Type 2.

 2.  The diabetes meds Avandia and Actos are thought to have similar
anti-heart attack effects

 3.  Fish oil has demonstrated anti-heart attack effects.   The
cardiologist who advises one of my Diabetes Support Groups recommends at
least 3 gram/day for folks who suspect they may have a problem,  and
increases up to 9 gram/day for folks with demonstrated problems.

 4.  The HOPE trial of ACE inhibitor blood pressure meds for diabetics was
forced to terminate early because the ACE had such strong anti-heart attack
effects  ((22% decrease in myocardial infarction, 33% decrease in stroke,
and 37% decrease in cardiovascular mortality).  They had to offer the ACE to
the placebo group.

There is some evidence that ACE b.p. meds have the secondary effect of
preserving weakened and dying Type 2 beta cells.

5.  ARB blood pressure meds are thought to have the same heart attack
effects.   Some docs think that they are better than ACE.  The docs are
looking for any ARB beta cell protective effects.

6.   Your triglycerides to HDL ratio is thought to have a strong effect on
your heart attack risk.   Lower is better;  a ratio above 3 is considered to
be in the danger area.

Some of my experiences with over-the-counter anti-cholesterol supplements:

". . .Oldal4865 wrote:
alt.support.diabetes
Jan 22, 2005

When my doc took me off the statin Lipitor because he suspected that I was
developing the dangerous side effects, my lipids took a very unwelcome jump.

So I bought the book Quentin recommended:

"50 Ways to Lower Your Cholesterol", McGowan, Mary P., M.D.

and took some of Dr. McGowan's  recommendations.

The results were:
Total Cholesterol: down 21% to 159 mg/dL
Triglycerides: down 43% to 61 mg/dL
HDL down 4% to 54 mg/dL
LDL down 25% to 94 mg/dL

My wholly OTC regime calls for:

 a.   Freshly ground Flax seed every day
 b.   Oatmeal every day
 b.  Benecol Margarine,
 d.  Policosanol,
 e.  Guggul.
  f.  Garlic powder
  g.  Time-release Niacin,  (1000 mg/day)
  h   Psyllium,
  i.  Fish oil,   (3000 mg/day)
  j.  daily handful of walnuts

(I just couldn't handle Dr. McGowan’s soy flour recommendation.)

I buy an OTC med from iHerb which contains Policosanol,  Garlic and Guggul
in a single tablet.

Some time later,  Sue reported on the European clinical trials and  her good
results with Pantethine.   I added Pantethine (300 mg/day) and my first
6-month trial resulted in an additional reduction in LDL coupled with a very
nice jump in HDL.      My triglycerides/HDL ratio is now 1.1  !

(If you want to live long,  pick grandparents with high HDL,   or figure out
some way to raise yours without relying on your grandparents.)"

Regards
Old Al

Unfortunately, weight loss is not your best course of action at this point.
Get your BG down first and then attempt weight loss.  High BG can cause
cravings for sweet and food in general.

There is no controversy.  The bad stuff you see written is written by
trolls.

Yes.  It may take a while after you gain control.  You might also try
Evening Primrose oil, 2,000 mg each morning and night.

I'm afraid I can't help you with that.

Hopefully you'll gain control quickly!

Hey J.B.

Re the cravings:

 I began losing weight by substituting slow carbs for fast carbs. I started
eating non-starch vegetables and stopped eating potatoes, rice, pasta, wheat
products, etc. I started walking every day...at least five miles broken up
into two to three sessions so I wouldn't get sick of it.

To deal with between-meal cravings, I began eating a quarter slice of a high
fiber bread every hour as needed, between three slow carb meals, and
gradually phased out the little  bread pieces over a 3 week period . I
believe this process quieted down my pancreas and lowered the insulin flow
which was exacerbating my insulin resistance and driving my appetite.

Now, with the weight off, I still walk 5 miles a day, eating lots of green
vegetables, beans and lean proteins. The cravings for fast carbs are mostly
gone, but they can reoccur if you eat  them.

I eat only 1/4 of a piece of fruit at a time and put the rest in the fridge
for later. I make a pumpkin custard dessert with unsweetened soymilk and
Splenda, following the recipe on the pumpkin can except for the
substitutions.

There are a number of ways to make green vegetables taste good. They mostly
involve garlic and olive oil.  You can add fresh ginger, sesame oil,
sweetened vinegar and cayenne to create an Asian flavor.  For Greek. add
feta cheese, garlic, olive oil, oregano and yogurt and lemon juice. For
Latin, season with large mild peppers, cumin, cayenne and lemon juice and a
grated Mexican cheese combo. One meal I like is a stew made with baby limas,
lots of either kale or collar greens, turkey bacon, garlic, onion, olive
oil, rosemary, sage and thyme. Naturally you'll sauté the herbs, bacon and
spices in olive oil and add that to the cooked greens and beans.

This can be done once you suppress the cravings by LOWERING your insulin
production and feeding your body many fewer fast carbs. With the execise,
the fat will melt away over time. And take your time. It took me 9 months to
lose 45 pounds. I lost the last 5 pounds four months later.

Five or six nuts will go a long way toward stifling hunger between meals.

Good luck!

I want to thank those who offered words of advice and encouragement. I've
made notes of the URLs and recommendations.

JB

Welcome JB...

Sorry you had to join us!

You may find that some of your problems will abate once you get and
maintain normal glucose numbers.

Be careful with things labeled "sugar free"... like those cookies.  Many
of them have as many, or more carbs than full sugar versions. Time to
start reading every package.   No need to give up your diet cola, if you
like it.

Here's the advice I give all those who want to get control of their
diabetes:

There is so much to absorb... you don't have to rush into anything.  Begin
by using your best weapon in this war, your meter.   You won't keel over
today, you have time to experiment, test, learn, test and figure out just
how your body and this disease are getting along.  The most important
thing you can do to learn about yourself and diabetes is test test  test.

More than most anything, what you eat will affect your diabetes and
your blood glucose numbers.

And more than anything you eat, carbs will affect your diabetes and
your blood glucose numbers.

So, the most important information you can begin to compile about
yourself, is how your body handles carbs.

This sounds like you would need a low carb food plan right?

You don't... what you need to uncover is YOUR   Personalized Carb Number.

Which actually works better for most everyone.  Because low to one
person is wildly high to another, but waaaaay too low for someone
else.

Is low carb less than 30g a day?   Is it anything less than the
Pyramid reccomendations?

Finding your Personalized Carb Number is easy.

Here's how you can figure out your own Personalized Carb Number.

The single biggest question a diabetic has to answer is:

What do I eat?

Unfortunately, the answer is pretty confusing.

What confounds us all is the fact that different diabetics can get great
results on wildly different food plans.  Some of us here achieve
great blood glucose control eating a high complex carbohydrate diet.
Others find that anything over 75 - 100g of carbs a day is too
much.  Still others are somewhere in between.

At the beginning all of us felt frustrated.  We wanted to be handed
THE way to eat, to ensure our continued health.  But we all
learned that there is no one way.  Each of us had to find our own path,
using the experience of those that went before, but still having
to discover for ourselves how OUR bodies and this disease were coexisting.

Ask questions, but remember each of us discovered on our own what works best
for us.  You can use our experiences as jumping off points, but eventually
you'll work up a successful plan that is yours alone.

What you are looking to discover is how different foods affect you.  As I'm
sure you've read, carbohydrates (sugars, wheat, rice... the things our
Grandmas called "starches") raise blood sugars the most rapidly.  Protein
and fat do raise them, but not as high and much more slowly... so if you're
a T2, generally the insulin your body still makes may take care of the rise.

You might want to try some  experiments.

First:  Eat whatever you've been
currently eating... but write it all down.
Test yourself at the following times:

Upon waking (fasting)
1 hour after each meal
2 hours after each meal
At bedtime

That means 8 x each day.  What you will discover by this is how long
after a meal your highest reading comes... and how fast you return to
"normal".  Also, you may see that a meal that included bread, fruit or
other carbs gives you a higher reading.

Then for the next few days, try to curb your carbs.  Eliminate breads,
cereals, rices, beans, any wheat products, potato, corn, fruit... get all
your carbs from veggies.  Test at the same schedule above.

If you try this for a few days, you may find some pretty damn good
readings.  It's worth a few days to discover.

Eventually you can slowly add back carbs until you see them affecting your
meter.

The thing about this disease... though we share much in common and we
need to
follow certain guidelines... in the end, each of our bodies dictate our
treatment and our success.

The closer we get to non-diabetic numbers, the greater chance we have of
avoiding horrible complications.  The key here is AIM... I know that
everyone is at a different point in their disease... and it is progressive.
But, if we aim for the best numbers and do our best, we give ourselves the
best shot at heath we've got.
That's all we can do.

Here's my opinion on what numbers to aim for, they are non-diabetic numbers.

FBG                          under 100
One hour after meals       under 140
Two hours after meals     under 120

or for those in the mmol parts of the world:

Fasting                              Under 6
One hour after meals         Under 8
Two hours after meals       Under 6.5

Recent studies have indicated that the most important numbers are your
"after meal" numbers. They may be the most indicative of future
complications, especially heart problems.

Listen to your doctor, but you are the leader of your diabetic
care team.  While his /her advice is learned, it is not absolute.   You
will end up knowing much more about your body and how it's handling
diabetes than your doctor will.   Your meter is your best weapon.

Just remember, we're not in a race or a competition with anyone but
ourselves... Play around with your food plan... TEST TEST TEST.  Learn what
foods cause spikes, what foods cause cravings... Use your body as a science
experiment.

You'll read about a lot of different ways people use to control their
diabetes... Many are diametrically opposed. After awhile you'll learn that
there is no one size fits all around here.  Take some time to experiment
and you'll soon discover the plan that works for you.

Best of luck!

Jennifer

Hi JB

You've already had some great replies, although you may be
overwhelmed by some apparent contradictions.

I'll try to keep it brief. Without reducing the value of
other respondents, please go back and re-read just two - the
replies from OldAl and Jennifer.

At the position you are in - Jennifer's "test, test, test"
advice cannot be beaten. It is simple, straightforward, and
immensely powerful if applied correctly.  No need to argue
about diets, carbs whatever - start with the diet they gave
you. But use your meter to determine if it is right for YOU.
Your body, your science experiment

Yes, lose the weight - but add the extra step of modifying
that diet to also improve your BGs.

Good luck. Please read those replies again, mull them over
for a day or two, experiment a bit, and then come back with
the questions.

I'll know if you put it into practice if your first question
is "why are my BGs so high an hour after breakfast?" :-))

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 2x500mg