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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / March 2006

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GI gets a call-up

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diarmidlogan@gmail.com - 24 Mar 2006 23:41 GMT
http://smh.com.au/news/nutrition/gi-gets-a-callup/2006/03/22/1142703438642.html

By Steve Dow

Want to lose weight? Controversial research to be unveiled this week
suggests your bad cholesterol levels could rise if you plump for a
high-protein diet but ignore low-glycaemic index ("GI") foods.

Experts agree that either a diet high in carbohydrate but low in GI, or
a diet high in protein, will help you shed kilograms. Low-GI foods are
those that the body slowly digests and absorbs, such as muesli, pasta
and green salad.

But the authors of a new Sydney University study to be presented at the
National Heart Foundation conference at the weekend suggest the low-GI
approach is crucial for controlling your LDL, or "bad", cholesterol.

The study, headed by PhD student Joanna McMillan-Price, examined 129
men and women aged 18 to 35. They were split into four groups and put
on a diet of varying glycaemic load for 12 weeks. All four diet groups
lost body fat. But the group placed on a high-protein diet with reduced
carbohydrates scored an average LDL cholesterol level 10 per cent
higher than the other groups. Another diet group given just as much red
meat - but combined with significant servings of low-GI carbohydrates -
recorded falls in LDL cholesterol.

Jennie Brand-Miller, a Sydney University professor of human nutrition
and the study co-author, says if you choose low-GI carbs "you can be
protected from any effects of red meat".

High-GI diets, which include processed breads and potatoes, were
associated with high cholesterol, according to the study findings, says
Brand-Miller.

The red meat itself was statistically "not the cause" of the high
cholesterol in this study, although Brand-Miller says the "potential"
for red meat to increase cholesterol is "definitely there" on a
high-protein diet.

The Meat and Livestock Corporation helped fund the study.

The message, says Brand-Miller, is that "if you ignore the GI in your
carbohydrates, then you might see adverse changes in your blood lipids
[fats]".

"Lowering glycaemic load by reducing the GI of carbohydrates is the
most effective mechanism of promoting body fat loss, as well as
improvements in cholesterol level," she says. "Reducing glycaemic load
by increasing protein may also be effective, but it's doubly important
to choose low-glycaemic carbohydrates."

For most people, particularly women, a low glycaemic load "might be
safer to achieve with a high-carbohydrate diet than a high-protein
diet". The group that achieved the best body fat loss and cholesterol
fall was on a high carbohydrate, low-GI diet (see breakout).

The University of Sydney has a big interest in low-GI diets. Experts
including Brand-Miller have authored books such as The New Glucose
Revolution and The Low GI Diet, with sales of more than 2 million.

In Adelaide, the CSIRO has questioned Sydney University's findings as
"out of step". Manny Noakes, an associate professor in CSIRO's human
nutrition department, says she has not seen the full study, but has
heard Brand-Miller present the early stages.

"The comments about high-protein diets are not supported by many other
studies," she says. "Both our own studies and many others show that LDL
cholesterol goes down with these diets."

Noakes is co-author of The CSIRO Total Wellbeing Diet book, which
emphasises more protein from red meat and fish but also includes
wholegrains, vegetables, fruit and milk.

"All of the studies that have been published on moderately high protein
diets that are not like the [highest protein] Atkins diet, all of them
have shown a reduction in LDL, and that's pretty obviously because they
were lean protein foods," says Noakes. "Unless you're on something like
the Atkins diet, in which case there's no change [in LDL].

"And there wasn't necessarily any attention given to GI in those
studies, mostly because the amount of carbohydrate is relatively low
anyway."

Noakes says there are additional benefits of higher protein diets for
weight loss, such as improved levels of iron, zinc and vitamin B12.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18588951%255E23289
,00.html


http://www.commonvoice.com/article.asp?colid=4459
Roger Zoul - 24 Mar 2006 23:46 GMT
http://smh.com.au/news/nutrition/gi-gets-a-callup/2006/03/22/1142703438642.html

:: By Steve Dow
::
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
:: foods are those that the body slowly digests and absorbs, such as
:: muesli, pasta and green salad.

Aren't most pasta just starch?  Those will have a big imact on BG.

:: But the authors of a new Sydney University study to be presented at
:: the National Heart Foundation conference at the weekend suggest the
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
:: Noakes says there are additional benefits of higher protein diets for
:: weight loss, such as improved levels of iron, zinc and vitamin B12.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18588951%255E23289
,00.html


:: http://www.commonvoice.com/article.asp?colid=4459 
Enrico C - 25 Mar 2006 00:58 GMT
On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 17:46:46 -0500, Roger Zoul wrote in
<news:1228tmnrjjq4ac1@news.supernews.com> on
alt.support.diet.low-carb,sci.med.cardiology,sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diabetes

> http://smh.com.au/news/nutrition/gi-gets-a-callup/2006/03/22/1142703438642.html
>::
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Aren't most pasta just starch?  Those will have a big imact on BG

Pastas have a fairly low GI. It's a FAQ on www.glycemicindex.com...
Q: Why does pasta have a low GI?
A: Pasta has a low GI because of the physical entrapment of
ungelatinised starch granules in a sponge-like network of protein
(gluten) molecules in the pasta dough. Pasta is unique in this regard.
As a result, pastas of any shape and size have a fairly low GI (30 to
60). Asian noodles such as hokkein, udon and rice vermicelli also have
low to intermediate GI values.
===============================================

X'Posted to:
alt.support.diet.low-carb,sci.med.cardiology,sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diabetes
Jbuch - 25 Mar 2006 01:22 GMT
> On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 17:46:46 -0500, Roger Zoul wrote in
> <news:1228tmnrjjq4ac1@news.supernews.com> on
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> low to intermediate GI values.
> ===============================================

Dreamfields pasta has patented various ways of increasing the stability
of the network of protein molecules which inhibit the digestion of the
carbohydrates in the pasta.

This is the basic secret of their version of "Low Carb" pasta which is
still based on wheat as the prime ingredient, and no soy or other low
carb ingredients to "dilute" the carbohydrate content which the body can
digest in the time available in the stomach and small intestine.

I wonder if I can write a longer sentence?

Signature

1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplemental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

Roger Zoul - 25 Mar 2006 02:08 GMT
:: Enrico C wrote:
::: On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 17:46:46 -0500, Roger Zoul wrote in
::: <news:1228tmnrjjq4ac1@news.supernews.com> on

alt.support.diet.low-carb,sci.med.cardiology,sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diabetes

:::: diarmidlogan@gmail.com wrote:

http://smh.com.au/news/nutrition/gi-gets-a-callup/2006/03/22/1142703438642.html

:::::: By Steve Dow
::::::
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
::
:: I wonder if I can write a longer sentence?

You can if you try. :)

Now that you bring up Dreamfields, don't a lot of folks report that they get
elevated BGs at later times from this so-called low carb pasta?  If that's
the case, a pasta which doesn't make such claims would probably not be as
good as Dreamfields, even.

:: --
:: 1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
:: 4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or
:: Other)
Billie - 25 Mar 2006 02:51 GMT
Dreamfields works fine for me.  No late spikes.

Billie

: Now that you bring up Dreamfields, don't a lot of folks report that they get
: elevated BGs at later times from this so-called low carb pasta?  If that's
: the case, a pasta which doesn't make such claims would probably not be as
: good as Dreamfields, even.
Jbuch - 25 Mar 2006 03:57 GMT
> :: Enrico C wrote:
> ::: On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 17:46:46 -0500, Roger Zoul wrote in
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> the case, a pasta which doesn't make such claims would probably not be as
> good as Dreamfields, even.

I remember reading this very long patent at http://www.uspto.gov after
searching for the patent.

I think the idea was to delay digestion until elimination or at least
until the large intestine was reached.

I think I remember reading in the patent that different people might be
able to break down the treatment earlier than others. So that for a few
people the product would be pretty much like regular pasta.

That would go along with what you had heard of elevated BG's in some people.

Then, it was almost a year ago when I read it, or struggled trying to
read it to put it more accurately.

There is good reason to suspect that only the general gist of the above
is a good approximation to accuracy.

The box says 42 carbs per serving, of which 37 are "Protected Carbs",
leaving 5 net Carbs per serving.

"Protected" evidently means that the carbs have been made to digest
outside the range of biological absorption -- or eliminated undigested.

Anyone can probably find the patent with determination -- and then more
determination is needed to read the whole thing.

I think I googled and got the name of the inventor of the process
somehow, and may have used the inventor name to locate the patent at
www.uspto.gov, rather than Dreamfields as the assignee. The assignee or
patent owner need not actually be Dreamfields, but could be a person or
another corporate entity with which Dreamfields has an agreement.

Signature

1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplemental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

Alf Christophersen - 25 Mar 2006 23:11 GMT
>I think the idea was to delay digestion until elimination or at least
>until the large intestine was reached.

Hm. Leaving all the carbohydrates for E.coli and friends to process.
How kind.

Anyone thought of the social side effects??

or perhaps, they should provide some instruments for the user to play
with the air pressures from farts when E.coli processing is at top.
Like tuba for huge males etc.

:-)
Jbuch - 25 Mar 2006 04:15 GMT
> Now that you bring up Dreamfields, don't a lot of folks report that they get
> elevated BGs at later times from this so-called low carb pasta?  If that's
> the case, a pasta which doesn't make such claims would probably not be as
> good as Dreamfields, even.

To look up the patent info at http://www.uspto.gov, the inventor's name
is in the following along with some claims about the product.
----------------------------------------------------------------

One carbohydrate expert speculated that the Dreamfields Pasta must
contain a large amount of resistant starch or other kinds of dietary
fiber. No, that isn’t they way they did it, says Dr. Jon Anfinsen, the
inventor of the process.

The technology behind Dreamfields Pasta results in most of the
carbohydrate grams becoming “protected” or non-digestible, Dr. Anfinsen
tells me. It “involves molecular interactions that help block the enzyme
from attacking the carbohydrate starch granule. It is not encapsulated.
We have basically creating the situation where there is a matrix more or
less that has a tendency to attract the enzyme to the matrix and not the
carbohydrate.”

These non-digestible carbohydrates aren’t counted as fiber, but they
“start to act as fiber in the colon,” Dr. Anfinsen says. “They perform
just like any other fiber in the colon; whether it be a soluble or an
insoluble fiber that is fermented, it acts the same.”

Tim Dodd, CEO of Dakota Growers Pasta Company in Carrington, North
Dakota, another partner in the Dreamfields venture, describes the
process somewhat differently. He says they make the pasta in four shapes
— spaghetti, elbows, penne rigate, and linguine — from enriched durum
semolina, the coarse flour made from durum wheat. A 52-gram (2 ounce)
serving of Dreamfields Pasta still includes 42 grams of total
carbohydrates, he says, but 37 are rendered non-digestible by a “fiber
blend” process for which a patent is pending. The process leaves only 5
digestible carbs per serving, Dodd says.

-----------------------------

There was speculation that this process could be adopted to other foods,
and potatoes was one of the speculations.

Signature

1) Eat Till SATISFIED, Not STUFFED... Atkins repeated 9 times in the book
2) Exercise: It's Non-Negotiable..... Chapter 22 title, Atkins book
3) Don't Diet Without Supplemental Nutrients... Chapter 23 title, Atkins
book
4) A sensible eating plan, and follow it. (Atkins, Self Made or Other)

Roger Zoul - 25 Mar 2006 04:45 GMT
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: Jbuch wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
:: There was speculation that this process could be adopted to other
:: foods, and potatoes was one of the speculations.

Interesting.  Thanks for the effort!
W.M.McKee - 25 Mar 2006 02:35 GMT
>Pastas have a fairly low GI. It's a FAQ on www.glycemicindex.com...
>Q: Why does pasta have a low GI?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>X'Posted to: alt.support.diet.low-carb,sci.med.cardiology,sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diabetes

Not all pastas are created equal... some have a more direct, and thus,
dangerous effect for diabetics, I submit....

If it be one of the traditional pastas, like most Italian vermicelli,
it is probably OK if consumed in very moderate quantities... I get a
spike if I have more than 1/2 cup. Barrillo, or some other types, do
not seem so dramatic in their effect on me. I am speaking simply from
my own experience. Others may have other experiences. My experience is
based upon my meter.

Will, T2
W.M.McKee - 25 Mar 2006 02:27 GMT
>http://smh.com.au/news/nutrition/gi-gets-a-callup/2006/03/22/1142703438642.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>suggests your bad cholesterol levels could rise if you plump for a
>high-protein diet but ignore low-glycaemic index ("GI") foods.

Maybe the real message here is that  balance is key, provided one
focuses upon the low end of the GI spectrum of possible carbs...

To parody Pangloss, what Jennifer, Quentin, Alan, et al, are
suggesting is that we choose to  live in the world of the best of all
possible carbs....  (The reference is to Voltaire)

Look at the study/article posted by Roger ... If you read it closely,
you get a partial explanation of why some carbs are better than
others. Chemically, starches are simply compacted glucose..... Whereas
other carb molecules do not break down so directly, thus not having
such an immediate impact upon the BG of diabetics.

Just some thoughts....

Chuck, for what it is worth,  I try to live "low carb" every day of my
life... If anything, I am healthier for it. Try it.. you may like the
way you feel! :-)  ....

Will, T2
Chris J. - 25 Mar 2006 21:55 GMT
I've noticed something odd that I thought might be of interest to
anyone in the drink/do not drink coffee discussions.

I have an expressso maker, as I enjoy an occasional double espresso.
Usually, I don't have it near a meal. I have it once or twice a month,
and it never bothered my BG's. I have it black, no sweetener.

Today, I had one double espresso immediately prior to breakfast. My
breakfast was one I have fairly often, and always before has given me
a peak BG or between 115 and 120: Low carb special K, regular milk, a
quarter cup of ground flax, and half a cup of fresh blueberries. (I
estimate roughly 30 carbs).

However, today, I started feeling slightly lightheaded and feverish
(usually a sign of a big spike with me) about 30 minutes PP, and
tested at 163 (confirmed by an immediate read with a different meter
at 161). 5 minutes later, 139, then 1 hour PP 104.

My normal PP peak from this exact breakfast is at 45 minutes, not 30
(and I've tested this breakfast extensively, so I'm sure of this).

So, what I saw was an earlier than expected and much higher spike. The
basic effect looked like my digestion process had been accelerated.

So, for me at least, it looks like coffee before, and perhaps with, a
meal is not a good idea.  
Russ - 26 Mar 2006 07:45 GMT
Caffeine is an insecticide produced by a number of different plants. When we
ingest it, we get a typical stress reaction with raised cortisol, glucose,
and blood pressure. Russ Farris    http://www.potbellysyndrome.com

> Today, I had one double espresso immediately prior to breakfast. My
> breakfast was one I have fairly often, and always before has given me
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> tested at 163 (confirmed by an immediate read with a different meter
> at 161). 5 minutes later, 139, then 1 hour PP 104.
Cheri - 26 Mar 2006 07:43 GMT
I have never had a problem with caffeine, never. It's definitely a YMMV
thing, so the "we" doesn't work, and I really hate the "we." Speak for
yourself.

--
Cheri

>Caffeine is an insecticide produced by a number of different plants. When we
>ingest it, we get a typical stress reaction with raised cortisol, glucose,
>and blood pressure. Russ Farris    http://www.potbellysyndrome.com
Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Alan S - 26 Mar 2006 09:10 GMT
>I've noticed something odd that I thought might be of interest to
>anyone in the drink/do not drink coffee discussions.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>So, for me at least, it looks like coffee before, and perhaps with, a
>meal is not a good idea.  

Exactly what is in your formula for a "double espresso"
apart from coffee. I'm particularly interested in what milk
or creamer you add.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 2x500mg
Signature

Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Ozgirl - 26 Mar 2006 10:06 GMT
>>I have an expressso maker, as I enjoy an occasional double espresso.
>>Usually, I don't have it near a meal. I have it once or twice a month,
>>and it never bothered my BG's. I have it black, no sweetener.

> Exactly what is in your formula for a "double espresso"
> apart from coffee. I'm particularly interested in what milk
> or creamer you add.

Black, no sweetener ;)
Alan S - 26 Mar 2006 10:25 GMT
>>>I have an expressso maker, as I enjoy an occasional double
>espresso.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Black, no sweetener ;)

Aah! Thx - missed that.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 2x500mg
Signature

Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Chris J. - 26 Mar 2006 22:50 GMT
>> I have it black, no sweetener.

>Exactly what is in your formula for a "double espresso"
>apart from coffee. I'm particularly interested in what milk
>or creamer you add.

None.

As for my formula, I stress that I don't know if this is the right way
of making the stuff, but it's how I do it.

I fill up the steamer cup with fresh ground Kona Coffee, and pack it
down a little. I fill up the miniature coffee pot to the top line, and
let the machine do it's job. This makes enough for one standard mug of
coffee, so I call it a double espresso. (Espresso is normally served
in very tiny cups). I add no creamer or sweetener, though I do often
add a single ice cube (I don't like my hot drinks to be very hot).

On occasion, I add a dash of cinnamon powder to the grounds.  
Susan - 26 Mar 2006 22:59 GMT
> I fill up the steamer cup with fresh ground Kona Coffee, and pack it
> down a little. I fill up the miniature coffee pot to the top line, and
> let the machine do it's job. This makes enough for one standard mug of
> coffee, so I call it a double espresso. (Espresso is normally served
> in very tiny cups). I add no creamer or sweetener, though I do often
> add a single ice cube (I don't like my hot drinks to be very hot).

Espresso is also made with a very different roast of coffee.  Kona, BTW,
has, IIRC, about 40% more caffiene than regular coffee, so that may be
part of your problem.

Susan
Chris J. - 27 Mar 2006 10:37 GMT
>x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Espresso is also made with a very different roast of coffee.

I tend to just use whatever is handy, and as I like Kona, that's
generally what I have.

> Kona, BTW,
>has, IIRC, about 40% more caffiene than regular coffee, so that may be
>part of your problem.

Ahh, caffeine, gotta love it. <G>
Alan S - 26 Mar 2006 23:14 GMT
>>> I have it black, no sweetener.
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>On occasion, I add a dash of cinnamon powder to the grounds.  

Sounds very similar to the coffee I have every morning -
although I have mine after breakfast. I tend to be on the ng
then, so it is sipped over a long period between two-finger
typing sessions and generally is stone cold by the time I
finish the mug.

Recipe:

I use a stove-top Italian style coffee-maker. Not this
brand, but like these:
http://www.bialetti.co.za/italian-coffee-makers.php

I put in a heaped tablespoon of ground coffee. I just
weighed the amount - 10-12gms, a little under a half oz to
make one mug.

For the morning mug, I add a few small bits of cinnamon
quill - about a 1/4 teaspoon - just broken off the quill.

That makes a mug-full of fairly strong brew. No measurable
BG effects at all. Neither from the coffee nor the cinnamon.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 2x500mg
Signature

Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Chris J. - 27 Mar 2006 10:40 GMT
>Sounds very similar to the coffee I have every morning -
>although I have mine after breakfast. I tend to be on the ng
>then, so it is sipped over a long period between two-finger
>typing sessions and generally is stone cold by the time I
>finish the mug.

I basically gulped this one, not good.

>Recipe:
>
>I use a stove-top Italian style coffee-maker. Not this
>brand, but like these:
>http://www.bialetti.co.za/italian-coffee-makers.php

Those look very interesting! I wonder if they would work on a
glass/ceramic (radiant heat) rangetop?

>I put in a heaped tablespoon of ground coffee. I just
>weighed the amount - 10-12gms, a little under a half oz to
>make one mug.
>
>For the morning mug, I add a few small bits of cinnamon
>quill - about a 1/4 teaspoon - just broken off the quill.

>That makes a mug-full of fairly strong brew. No measurable
>BG effects at all. Neither from the coffee nor the cinnamon.

I've never noticed any BG effects previously, either, but I don't
recall having it right before a breakfast, either.

Have you ever tried your brew right before a meal?
Alan S - 27 Mar 2006 13:01 GMT
>>Sounds very similar to the coffee I have every morning -
>>although I have mine after breakfast. I tend to be on the ng
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Those look very interesting! I wonder if they would work on a
>glass/ceramic (radiant heat) rangetop?

I can't see why not; the base is flat.

>>I put in a heaped tablespoon of ground coffee. I just
>>weighed the amount - 10-12gms, a little under a half oz to
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Have you ever tried your brew right before a meal?

Rarely - not often. But I don't recall any BG variations on
those rare occasions.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 2x500mg
Signature

Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Chris J. - 28 Mar 2006 10:49 GMT
>>I've never noticed any BG effects previously, either, but I don't
>>recall having it right before a breakfast, either.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Rarely - not often. But I don't recall any BG variations on
>those rare occasions.

But when did you test? If I'd have tested just at one hour, I'd have
seen the 104 (5.7) and assumed everything was fine as that's in the
acceptable range for me.

Had I not felt odd, I wouldn't have tested so early, as this was all
"known" and well tested items. I'd have utterly missed the spike.

However, my BG profile is apparently odd in that I'm very prone to
spiking very briefly when I spike, so this might not apply at all to
anyone else.
Ricavito - 28 Mar 2006 01:48 GMT
> >Recipe:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> >For the morning mug, I add a few small bits of cinnamon
> >quill - about a 1/4 teaspoon - just broken off the quill.

That's how I make my morning cup too, except I use a French roast as
Kona is too mild tasting for me.  Then I froth about 6 oz of steaming
hot nonfat milk  w/ a tbl or so of bitter chocolate, cinammon, and
Splenda to taste.  I don't get much of a waiver in bg usually, even w/
the nonfat milk--nothing like w/ toast for example.  One must spend
one's carbs wisely!  And it's a nice start to a chilly day.
Jeanie - 27 Mar 2006 22:41 GMT
> As for my formula, I stress that I don't know if this is the right way
> of making the stuff, but it's how I do it.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> On occasion, I add a dash of cinnamon powder to the grounds.  

That's not espresso, though.  That's just a strong cup of coffee.
Espresso is a whole 'nuther thing, very very strong.  I drink a great
deal of coffee, some of it decaf, some not.  All the espresso I use is
decaf, mostly because my husband and I like to have a latte together at
night about once a week.  Caffeine doesn't seem to affect me much at
all.  I can go strictly decaf for weeks on end with no withdrawal
headaches or anything.  He can't, though.  <g>

Jeanie
Nicky - 27 Mar 2006 22:58 GMT
>> As for my formula, I stress that I don't know if this is the right way
>> of making the stuff, but it's how I do it. I fill up the steamer cup with
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> That's not espresso, though.  That's just a strong cup of coffee.

Nope, my Italian coffee maker that resembles Alan's description says it's
for espresso. Makes a hell of a crema, too.

Nicky.

Signature

A1c 10.5/5.4/<6  T2 DX 05/2004
1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
95/74/72Kg

Ozgirl - 27 Mar 2006 23:26 GMT
> >> As for my formula, I stress that I don't know if this is the right way
> >> of making the stuff, but it's how I do it. I fill up the steamer cup with
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Nope, my Italian coffee maker that resembles Alan's description says it's
> for espresso. Makes a hell of a crema, too.

Define: espresso  google search ;)

brewing method that extracts the heart of the bean. It was
invented in Italy at the turn of the century. A pump-driven
machine forces hot water through fine grounds at around nine
atmospheres of pressure. It should take between 18 to 23
seconds to extract a good shot. This will produce from 3/4
to one ounce of great liquid. This produces a sweet, thick
and rich, smooth shot of espresso. Comes from the Latin word
"Expresere" which means "to press out."
www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/2549/glossary.html

I like this one :) :

A one-ounce shot of intense, rich black coffee made and
served at once. A pump-driven machine forces hot water
through fine grounds at around nine atmospheres of pressure.
abyssinica.co.uk/glossary.htm

Coffee prepared in a special machine from finely ground
coffee beans, through which steam under high pressure is
forced. This method takes 18 to 25 seconds, giving way to
the meaning express or fast. A straight shot of espresso
measures between 1 to 1 3/4oz and is topped with a deep
golden cream. A straight shot of espresso should be poured
and brewed directly into the cup in which it is being served
in.
www.grindersandcompany.com/terms.php

HTH :)
Jeanie - 28 Mar 2006 01:20 GMT
>>>>As for my formula, I stress that I don't know if this
>
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
>
> HTH :)

Well, the coffee has to be ground in the finest grind possible, which,
oddly enough, is called espresso grind.  If you were to use regular
grind coffee in an espresso machine, you would not have espresso as most
people know it.

Jeanie
Chris J. - 28 Mar 2006 10:52 GMT
>Well, the coffee has to be ground in the finest grind possible, which,
>oddly enough, is called espresso grind.  If you were to use regular
>grind coffee in an espresso machine, you would not have espresso as most
>people know it.

I grind my own, and I do grind it very fine for Espresso.
LizardQueen - 26 Mar 2006 12:07 GMT
I think that caffeine causes the "fight or flight" response which
causes the liver to dump glucose. Could be that the 163 was additive
(liver dump from caffeine + breakfast).

And while I don't know the body mechanism of it I agree that coffee can
make things go "too fast" - both my sister and I have had to cut out
caffeine as no matter what we eat we're hungry again a half hour later
if we drink coffee with it.

I had already started working it out of my diet when I discovered I had
blood sugar regulation problems. I had found that combined with
breakfast it would make me hungrier after breakfast than if I hadn't
drank it at all.

Now that I've cut it out I seem to be particularly sensitive to it. A
cup of decaf coffee or non-decaf tea will give me the jitters where
before they wouldn't. It's not as bad if I drink it later in the AM,
though not after about 3 PM because then I can't sleep that night.

LQ
Chris J. - 26 Mar 2006 22:56 GMT
>I think that caffeine causes the "fight or flight" response which
>causes the liver to dump glucose. Could be that the 163 was additive
>(liver dump from caffeine + breakfast).

Hmmm.... That's an interesting thought...

But, the odd thing is, it never bothers my BG between meals. However,
this was at breakfast, so perhaps it causes a liver dump due to the
long fast?

I can only think of one way to test this theory: Try having the
espresso with lunch. If I ever get up the nerve to try this
(unlikely), I'll post the results (hitting the 160's is NOT a happy or
relaxing event for me, so I'm definitely not eager to repeat!)

Thanks for some interesting things to think about, LQ.
Also, I have been following your threads, and I think you are doing
very well! I certainly commend your pro-active attitude!!!
Nicky - 26 Mar 2006 19:19 GMT
> Today, I had one double espresso immediately prior to breakfast. My
> breakfast was one I have fairly often, and always before has given me
> a peak BG or between 115 and 120: Low carb special K, regular milk, a
> quarter cup of ground flax, and half a cup of fresh blueberries. (I
> estimate roughly 30 carbs).

I've moved off coffee in the morning to green tea - I like my coffee strong
enough to require a silver spoon to stir it, and I just can't cope with it
in the mornings any more : )  I am however sitting here sipping my usual
post-supper coffee, with a 1-hr pp of 5.7.

Maybe whatever effect you had from it is amplified by the morning weirdness,
and you'd be safer drinking it later in the day?

Nicky.

Signature

A1c 10.5/5.4/<6  T2 DX 05/2004
1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
95/74/72Kg

Chris J. - 26 Mar 2006 23:00 GMT
>> Today, I had one double espresso immediately prior to breakfast. My
>> breakfast was one I have fairly often, and always before has given me
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Maybe whatever effect you had from it is amplified by the morning weirdness,
>and you'd be safer drinking it later in the day?

I'm not sure if it's the morning, or having it right before a meal, or
both. I do know that I've had it right after both lunch and dinner
with no trouble, and between meals with no trouble.

I'll just avoid having it right before a meal from now on. It's
something I only have once or twice a month, so making sure I don't
have it right before eating will be no trouble at all.  
Loretta Eisenberg - 26 Mar 2006 19:22 GMT
I thought that this thread was about a person in the military being
called up to go to Iraq.  Okay I wasnt too swift.  It does bring up a
question   Are diabetics automatically excluded from military service.

Loretta

--
In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.
Cheri - 26 Mar 2006 19:56 GMT
I think a type 1 diabetic was petitioning to be allowed into the
military not too long ago, I could be mistaken, but I sort of remember
reading about it. Dunno if he was let in or not though.

--
Cheri

Loretta Eisenberg wrote in message
<24464-4426DBF2-19@storefull-3231.bay.webtv.net>...
I thought that this thread was about a person in the military being
called up to go to Iraq.  Okay I wasnt too swift.  It does bring up a
question   Are diabetics automatically excluded from military service.

Loretta

--
In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.
W.M.McKee - 26 Mar 2006 20:05 GMT
>I think a type 1 diabetic was petitioning to be allowed into the
>military not too long ago, I could be mistaken, but I sort of remember
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Loretta

Having been in the military, Loretta, I cannot imagine why anyone in
this world would clamor to get in... I still have a pair of pants with
a shrapnel hole in them.

In my day, we were all faced with the draft. There was no choice. It
was sign up, or go to jail.

I am familiar with the stories of many who were medically discharged,
when they were diagnosed. I doubt that the regs have changed, but I do
not know for sure....

Will, T2
Cheri - 26 Mar 2006 20:19 GMT
Boy, that's the truth. :-(

--
Cheri

W.M.McKee wrote in message ...

>Having been in the military, Loretta, I cannot imagine why anyone in
>this world would clamor to get in... I still have a pair of pants with
>a shrapnel hole in them.
Billie - 28 Mar 2006 05:49 GMT
Hello Will.  There was a 'pumper' who was in Iraq but had to return stateside following a
problem with his pumping supplies that were damaged.  I do not recall all of the details now
(pretty sure I got the info on the pumpers' list), and how long he had been there prior to this.
As far as I know, there was no problem with him being in the military.  Maybe the need is so
great for members today, that they are not as stringent on some of the requirements.

Having been in the Air Force for nineteen years with Jim, I do have to say it has its pros and
cons.  Surely, our family suffered from some of the "cons," yet we are all the persons we are
today from those experiences, and there is not a one of us that I would change one iota, and
*that* means accepting Jim, children, and grandchildren exactly as they are, not expecting nor
wanting any change in them.

Hope you have a good day tomorrow.  I have to go to Memphis to the urologist for a follow-up
from my last lithotripsy done two weeks ago today.

Billie........ loving her MM 715 pump!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

: Having been in the military, Loretta, I cannot imagine why anyone in
: this world would clamor to get in... I still have a pair of pants with
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
:
: Will, T2
W.M.McKee - 28 Mar 2006 13:49 GMT
>Hello Will.  There was a 'pumper' who was in Iraq but had to return stateside following a
>problem with his pumping supplies that were damaged.  I do not recall all of the details now
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>:
>: Will, T2

Great hearing from you, Billie...Yes, there was a mix of good and bad,
and we have all been moulded by our experiences that brought us to
where we are today.

And as they say, everyone has to be somewhere. Sometimes, we just have
to go with what life presents us at the time.

Hope you are well this day, and that the trip to Memphis goes well.

Will, t2
Billie - 28 Mar 2006 05:35 GMT
Cheri and Loretta,

There was an insulin pumper who went to Iraq, but had to return stateside early due to *supply*
problems incurred when some of his were damaged.  I cannot recall all of the details of the
story now as to the reason why the problem with replacement.

Hope both you ladies are doing well this evening.  :o)
Billie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
:I think a type 1 diabetic was petitioning to be allowed into the
: military not too long ago, I could be mistaken, but I sort of remember
: reading about it. Dunno if he was let in or not though.
:
: --
: Cheri

: I thought that this thread was about a person in the military being
: called up to go to Iraq.  Okay I wasnt too swift.  It does bring up a
: question   Are diabetics automatically excluded from military service.
:
: Loretta
Charles - 27 Mar 2006 16:56 GMT
Loretta, maybe I can answer the question best.  I was discharged
on Dec 21, 1971 before a pay raise went into effect the 1st of 1972.
Here's how it works.  I was in a driving career field and I had just got a
clearance
to refuel Air Force 1 and actually got to refuel it one time.  I had 13
years in
and if I had been in a different career field they might have "carried" me
7 years or if I had been a T-2, which would be unlikely at age 32, they
might have done it and I emphasize the word might.  Hopefully times have
changed since then.  Look at the reality, if I went to Iraq, where would I
store my insulin?
You eat a box lunch in the field and they don't need guys like me having
hypoglemic reactions every time I missed a meal.

Back when women weren't allowed to do men's work, there was a lot of
complaining
about that so they don't want to give a guy like me a desk job.  I could
have been
a fuels truck dispatcher but they only look at the big picture.  I served a
year in Thailand
in 1965 and there was no refrigeration, except in the club.

Charlie

>I thought that this thread was about a person in the military being
> called up to go to Iraq.  Okay I wasnt too swift.  It does bring up a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
> terrorism.
Loretta Eisenberg - 27 Mar 2006 19:29 GMT
Thanks Charlie,  I guess diabetes makes one 4F if they use that term any
more

Loretta

--
In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.
Quentin Grady - 27 Mar 2006 21:22 GMT
This post not CC'd by email

>http://smh.com.au/news/nutrition/gi-gets-a-callup/2006/03/22/1142703438642.html

G'day G'day Folks,

 In the study we can clearly see various groups jockeying for
position, most notably the original researchers on GI and the CSIRO
group.  Could I make one suggestion that has relevance to the people
here on asd.  Ignore the power plays of the groups. What they call
their diets matters very little. What matters is what they actually
do. It's the nitty gritty of the diet that we need to notice.  Often
researchers get a good result or a bad result which has little to do
with their "cause"

Let's take a look at the diets presented.

Fat fighters

These two diets produced the most significant results

=================================================================
Best combined weight loss and cholesterol improvement on this
high-carbohydrate, low-GI diet:

BREAKFAST: Burgen low-GI cereal, low-fat milk, strawberries,
grapefruit; mid-morning fruit bread, margarine, fruit spread.

LUNCH oatbran bread, minestrone soup, margarine, green apple.

DINNER spaghetti in 120g of bolognaise sauce; salad of lettuce,
tomato, cucumber, olive oil and vinegar. (5300 kilojoules energy, 175
grams carbs, 47 grams protein, 42 grams fat. Glycaemic load of this
sample menu: 65.)

=================================================================
Comments.

Breakfast.
Burgen breads have outstanding low GIs. In Australia and New Zealand
they are the virtual standards. There is something else about them.
They are of outstanding quality.  Low fat milk is usually high
protein.  There has to be something if it ain't to taste like dish
water. Strawberries are reduced carb, never mind the low GI aspect.
T2s can generally eat strawberries till the cows come home and not
experience a significant blood glucose rise.  Grapefruit is
interesting all on its own.  Grapefruit is low GI, its true. It also
contains some interesting bioflavonoids that alter the liver function.
Grapefruit consumption is associated with weightloss.  

The macronutrient ratios work out at P:C:F as 15:55:30. These are the
classic ratios that I often rail against as unlikely to produce
weightloss.  These are the same ratios give or take a bit that failed
in the WHI study.  IMHO there is more to be learnt from looking at
dietary trials the DON'T conform to one's expectation than from ones
that do.  For that reason this result is more important to me than
many other trials.

Low fat basically doesn't work for weightloss unless something
exceptional happens.  The usual something is that protein is brought
up to about 20% and fibre is raised to about 30 grams per day.  Yet,
here is a study that worked.  

Clearly the message of importance is in the details.
It becomes exquisitely important to find out how it worked, if indeed
the proclamations of success are valid.

The question is, "Which details?"  

At the moment we have best "cholesterol" improvement.  
Low fat diets usually decrease both HDL and LDL.  When they say best
"cholesterol improvement" do they mean biggest drop in LDL:HDL ratio
or the more misleading drop in total cholesterol?  

OK, now for the other diet.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Worst cholesterol result on this higher-protein, reduced-carb diet,
but good weight loss results:

BREAKFAST: 80-gram omelette, wholemeal bread, spinach, capsicum and
grilled tomato; mid-morning low-fat yoghurt, wheat bran, banana.

LUNCH wholemeal bread, lean meat, lettuce, tomato and cheddar cheese.

DINNER brown rice, 200 grams bolognaise sauce, salad as above. (5350
kilojoules of energy, 140 grams carbs, 81 grams protein, 43 grams fat.
Glycaemic load: 84)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Comments.  The meals are rather different from what I'd choose.
It contains things I'd eat and items I'd leave out.  

Yes, I'd eat an omellete, spinach, capsicum and grilled tomato.
No, I'd avoid "wholemeal bread" banana and brown rice.
Burgen breads are closer to whole grain and their slow ferment and
slow cooling ensure low GI.

Protein has brought up to 25% of calories.
Fat remains at 30%
Carbohydrate appears to be about 45%

IMHO the protein is enough for weightloss.  
We don't know the fibre levels

It seems obvious that the diet many of us would like to see has low GI
choices for carbohydrate AND higher protein.  However this is the
nature of research.  Few researchers have any motivation to discover
the optimal diet as we have.  It is rather like the old, old joke
about the pair being confronted by a bear in the woods and one
stopping to put on running shoes. All that is necessary in the power
plays between conflicting nutritional ideologies is to out run the
opposition.

Best wishes,

Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

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