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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / March 2006

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Atkins-style diets can be life-threatening, doctors warn

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Ignoramus31542 - 20 Mar 2006 15:23 GMT
Alt.support.diabetes readers can enjoy a reference to "ketoacidosis".

i
======================================================================
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1732719,00.html

Atkins-style diets can be life-threatening, doctors warn

Owen Bowcott
Friday March 17, 2006
The Guardian

Low carbohydrate diets, such as the Atkins plan, can lead to
life-threatening conditions, a medical journal warned yesterday. The
Lancet described the case of an obese woman who had adhered strictly
to the high-protein diet for a month before being admitted to hospital
as an emergency.

The 40-year-old, who had taken vitamin supplements recommended by the
Atkins plan, needed treatment in the intensive care unit of a New York
hospital. She had ketoacidosis, a condition triggered by the liver's
production of ketones, the acids which appear during periods of
starvation or when there is a lack of insulin in the body due to
diabetes.

Article continues
When first admitted the patient felt nauseous and was dehydrated after
vomiting for several days.

She was short of breath and in "moderate distress". Four days later,
after a dextrose drip, she was well enough to be discharged.

The doctors said the Atkins diet was largely to blame.

Professor Klaus-Dieter Lessnau, who led the team from the New York
School of Medicine, wrote: "Our patient had an underlying ketosis
caused by the Atkins diet ... this problem may become more recognised
because this diet is becoming increasingly popular worldwide."

The Atkins diet maintains that you can lose weight rapidly by cutting
carbohydrates entirely from meals.

For a month before she fell ill the woman admitted to the US hospital
had lived on meat, cheese and salads.

She had also taken vitamins recommended by the diet.

As instructed in the original Atkins diet book, she monitored her
urine twice daily. During this month-long period, she lost about 9kg
(19lbs).

Commenting on the case elsewhere in the Lancet, Lyn Steffen, a doctor,
and Jennifer Nettleton, from the University of Minnesota School of
Public Health delivered a further warning about Atkins and other
carb-cutting diets.

The pair wrote: "While the rapid weight loss seems to be an obvious
benefit of the Atkins diet, bigger questions remain.

"First, is the diet safe? ... low carbohydrate diets for weight
management are far from healthy, given their association with ketosis,
constipation or diarrhoea, halitosis, headache, and general fatigue to
name a few side effects.

"These diets also increase the protein load to the kidneys and alter
the acid balance in the body, which can result in loss of minerals
from bone stores, thus compromising bone integrity."
Roger Zoul - 20 Mar 2006 16:22 GMT
We beat on this last week, Ig (in ASDLC).  The Lancet is slipping badly.

:: Alt.support.diabetes readers can enjoy a reference to "ketoacidosis".
::
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
::
:: Atkins-style diets can be life-threatening, doctors warn
Ignoramus31542 - 20 Mar 2006 17:02 GMT
> We beat on this last week, Ig (in ASDLC).  The Lancet is slipping badly.

I will check alt.support.diet.low-carb soon, thanks Roger.

i

>:: Alt.support.diabetes readers can enjoy a reference to "ketoacidosis".
>::
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>::
>:: Atkins-style diets can be life-threatening, doctors warn

Signature

223/175.5/180

Beav - 20 Mar 2006 21:44 GMT
> Alt.support.diabetes readers can enjoy a reference to "ketoacidosis".

I wondered when (note, not if) you'd mention this. I bet you've been having
the twitches in readiness for posting it too, but unfortunately (for you)
the article f.cked up. It should've read "ketosis", but you knew that
anyway.

Signature

Beav
OMF#19
VN 750
Zed Thou

mail is beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com (with the obvious changes)

Ignoramus31542 - 20 Mar 2006 22:04 GMT
>> Alt.support.diabetes readers can enjoy a reference to "ketoacidosis".
>
> I wondered when (note, not if) you'd mention this. I bet you've been having
> the twitches in readiness for posting it too, but unfortunately (for you)
> the article f.cked up. It should've read "ketosis", but you knew that
> anyway.

Um, I may be wrong, but I think that the patient did have
ketoacidosis, and what made me mentally note it is that it is not the
same as ketosis that happens on low carb.
Doug Freyburger - 20 Mar 2006 22:22 GMT
> >> Alt.support.diabetes readers can enjoy a reference to "ketoacidosis".
>
> > It should've read "ketosis", but you knew that anyway.
>
> Um, I may be wrong, but I think that the patient did have
> ketoacidosis,

Having the article say it and having the patient actually being in
ketoacidosis are two different things.  There are lies in the text
of the article so the entire thing could be made up.  Also who's
to say the patient had ketoacidosis rather than perhaps
lactoacidosis.

> and what made me mentally note it is that it is not the
> same as ketosis that happens on low carb.

Which was the first red flag.  Probably someone who should
never have attempted low carb in the first place.  Certainly
someone who never read the book and didn't have the
faintest notion of the right way to do it.
Paula57@yahoo.com - 20 Mar 2006 22:33 GMT
Even if this is true, how often to they publish an article about a
patient dying during or after a gastric bypass.  Why?  Because obesity
surgery is making a bunch of doctors a bunch of $$$.  Heaven forbid we
should find a diet that actually works, that we can do on our own (as
opposed to Medifast or boxed diets like Jenny Craig).  One should still
have a doctor's supervision, but if your doctor is dead set against
low-carb, I say GET A NEW DOCTOR.
Ignoramus31542 - 20 Mar 2006 22:37 GMT
> Even if this is true, how often to they publish an article about a
> patient dying during or after a gastric bypass.  Why?  Because obesity
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> have a doctor's supervision, but if your doctor is dead set against
> low-carb, I say GET A NEW DOCTOR.

I would like to read tha Lancet article, it could be that journalists'
interpretation of it makes it sound dumber than it really was. The way
the news articles make it sound makes me wonder how it could be
admitted for publication. Maybe the Lancet article was about something
else entirely -- such things are known to happen.

i
Jenny - 21 Mar 2006 00:52 GMT
> I would like to read tha Lancet article, it could be that journalists'
> interpretation of it makes it sound dumber than it really was. The way
> the news articles make it sound makes me wonder how it could be
> admitted for publication. Maybe the Lancet article was about something
>else entirely -- such things are known to happen.

No, the Lancet article was a case history of one patient who developed
ketoacidosis while eating some bizarrely and calling it "Atkins."

By the same logic there should be a ton of articles about how "Atkins
diet causes pregnancy" and "Atkins diet burns down home".

--Jenny

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
Sugar Under Control
Sherry - 21 Mar 2006 01:12 GMT
> No, the Lancet article was a case history of one patient who developed
> ketoacidosis while eating some bizarrely and calling it "Atkins."
>
> By the same logic there should be a ton of articles about how "Atkins
> diet causes pregnancy" and "Atkins diet burns down home".

This was also my thought, I'm wondering why The Lancet doesn't write
articles about people who die while on heart meds or when wearing red
slippers or...?

Signature

Sherry
364/290/195 (4/3/05)
http://lowcarb.owly.net

Ignoramus29446 - 21 Mar 2006 15:29 GMT
>> I would like to read tha Lancet article, it could be that journalists'
>> interpretation of it makes it sound dumber than it really was. The way
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> By the same logic there should be a ton of articles about how "Atkins
> diet causes pregnancy" and "Atkins diet burns down home".

Jenny, do you have the article or at least a link to its abstract?

i
Jenny - 21 Mar 2006 16:40 GMT
> Jenny, do you have the article or at least a link to its abstract?

Not at hand. Try searching for "Atkins ketoacidosis Lancet" on Google
Scholar. If it isn't there now it will be by next week.

--Jenny

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
Sugar Under Control
Ignoramus29446 - 21 Mar 2006 16:52 GMT
>> Jenny, do you have the article or at least a link to its abstract?
>
> Not at hand. Try searching for "Atkins ketoacidosis Lancet" on Google
> Scholar. If it isn't there now it will be by next week.

I could not find it on google scholar and also could not find it on
medline yesterday.

i
Wes Groleau - 21 Mar 2006 04:36 GMT
> I would like to read tha Lancet article, it could be that journalists'
> interpretation of it makes it sound dumber than it really was. The way
> the news articles make it sound makes me wonder how it could be
> admitted for publication. Maybe the Lancet article was about something
> else entirely -- such things are known to happen.

Well, I saw at least one hint in your quote.  Anyone who calls
Atkins a high-protein diet is either a liar or has never read
an Atkins book.

Signature

Wes Groleau

   Trying to be happy is like trying to build a machine for which
   the only specification is that it should run noiselessly.
                              -- unknown

Ignoramus31542 - 21 Mar 2006 06:11 GMT
>> I would like to read tha Lancet article, it could be that journalists'
>> interpretation of it makes it sound dumber than it really was. The way
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Atkins a high-protein diet is either a liar or has never read
> an Atkins book.

I agree. I call it a dumbass test. Anyone dumb or dishonest enough to
call  Atkins a high protein diet, certainly does not deserve my
attention.

i
Doug Freyburger - 21 Mar 2006 16:04 GMT
> I would like to read tha Lancet article, it could be that journalists'
> interpretation of it makes it sound dumber than it really was. The way
> the news articles make it sound makes me wonder how it could be
> admitted for publication. Maybe the Lancet article was about something
> else entirely -- such things are known to happen.

I would like to read it too, at least the summary.  The timing of the
news article was what hit me.  On the same day two Atkins bashing
articles came out.  One lying about a patient being on Atkins, the
other written by the liars at PCRM.  To me the timing makes it look
like someone's donation check cleared and they could afford a
media assault.  Or maybe they finally managed to snooker The
Lancet into publishing one of their plant stories so they did a media
release when it came out to fire from both barrels.

The PCRM has stooped to lying before to bad-mouth Atkins.
Ignoramus29446 - 21 Mar 2006 16:53 GMT
>> I would like to read tha Lancet article, it could be that journalists'
>> interpretation of it makes it sound dumber than it really was. The way
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> The PCRM has stooped to lying before to bad-mouth Atkins.

We don't really know who inspired what, but surely I would not trust
PCRM with anything.

i
Ignoramus31542 - 20 Mar 2006 23:09 GMT
>> >> Alt.support.diabetes readers can enjoy a reference to "ketoacidosis".
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> to say the patient had ketoacidosis rather than perhaps
> lactoacidosis.

I would like to read the Lancet article. Its reproduction by media
sounds a little bit too stupid to be true, so to speak.

i
Roger Zoul - 21 Mar 2006 18:14 GMT
:: On 20 Mar 2006 13:22:42 -0800, Doug Freyburger <dfreybur@yahoo.com>
:: wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
:: I would like to read the Lancet article. Its reproduction by media
:: sounds a little bit too stupid to be true, so to speak.

Anyone know which issue of the Lancet the article appeared in?

:: i
Beverly - 21 Mar 2006 18:52 GMT
> :: On 20 Mar 2006 13:22:42 -0800, Doug Freyburger <dfreybur@yahoo.com>
> :: wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Anyone know which issue of the Lancet the article appeared in?

It's in their current issue, vol 367 number 9514.  There's additional
information about the incident at :

http://www.theheart.org/
Roger Zoul - 21 Mar 2006 19:23 GMT
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: Ignoramus31542 wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
::
:: It's in their current issue, vol 367 number 9514.

Thanks.  I can't yet get this one online.

There's additional
:: information about the incident at :
::
:: http://www.theheart.org/ 
Ignoramus29446 - 21 Mar 2006 19:40 GMT
>:: Roger Zoul wrote:
>::: Ignoramus31542 wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Thanks.  I can't yet get this one online.

Note how they mention in passing that she was taking a "thermogenic"
formula.

======================================================================
Woman admitted to hospital for ketoacidosis after following Atkins diet

March 16, 2006        Michael O'Riordan

New York, NY - An intriguing case report published in the Lancet this
week casts a shadow over the highly contentious Atkins diet [1]. In
February 2004, Dr Tsuh-Yin Chen (Lenox Hill Hospital, New York, NY)
and colleagues admitted a 40-year-old woman to the hospital for
ketoacidosis, presumably as a result of following the
low-carbohydrate, high-protein diet.

As noted by the doctors, ketones are produced in the liver whenever
there is a decrease in insulin during starvation. Low-carbohydrate
diets such as Atkins can lead to ketone production, they write, noting
that the Atkins diet book recommends regular monitoring for ketonuria
to confirm adherence to the diet.

On presentation to the emergency room, the patient was in moderate
distress. She had a respiratory rate of 20 to 30 breaths per minute,
along with hyperactive bowel sounds and mild epigastric
tenderness. The doctors note that the obese woman complained of
dyspnea and five days earlier her appetite had decreased. She also
felt nauseous and had since vomited four to six times daily.

She told doctors she had been strictly following the low-carbohydrate,
high-protein Atkins diet for the past month, eating primarily meat,
cheese, and salads. She also adhered to other Atkins recommendations,
taking multivitamins, omega-3 fatty acids, electrolytes, and extracts,
as well as a "thermogenic" formula. She reported a weight loss of 9 kg
over the one-month period.

Ketonuria confirmed

The doctors found her clinical examination to be relatively
unremarkable. The anion gap was high at 26 mmol/L and bicarbonate was
low at 8 mmol/L. Urine analysis confirmed ketonuria. She was admitted
to the ICU and given an infusion of dextrose and sodium
bicarbonate. She was discharged four days later and was without health
problems three and 18 months later when the doctors spoke with her on
the telephone.

Chen and colleagues note that a differential diagnosis of
high-anion-gap metabolic acidosis includes the ingestion of methanol,
ethylene glycol, or salicylate; L- or D-lactate acidosis; and
ketoacidosis due to diabetes mellitus, alcohol, or starvation. The
doctors ruled these other causes out, however. Serum was positive for
acetone, and -hydroxybutyrate was high at 390 µg/mL, consistent with
ketoacidosis.

"Our patient had an underlying ketosis caused by the Atkins diet and
developed severe ketoacidosis, possibly when her oral intake was
compromised from mild pancreatitis or gastroenteritis," conclude Chen
et al. "This problem may become more recognized because this diet is
becoming increasingly popular worldwide."

In a Comment [2], Drs Lyn Steffen and Jennifer Nettleton (University
of Minnesota, Minneapolis) write that while the Atkins diet boasts of
"good health," low-carbohydrate diets are far from healthy, given
their "association with ketosis, constipation or diarrhea, halitosis,
headache, and general fatigue, to name a few side effects."

They point out that diets increase the protein load to the kidney and
alter the body's acid balance. Moreover, long-term weight management
for at-risk individuals should be based on increased physical activity
and dietary modification, such as increasing intakes of whole grains,
fruit, and vegetables. The American Dietetic Association echoes this
weight-loss position, they note.
Roger Zoul - 21 Mar 2006 19:56 GMT
:: On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 13:23:55 -0500, Roger Zoul
:: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
::
:: March 16, 2006 Michael O'Riordan

Bottom line: Woman shows up sick and waving the Red Flag of Atkins.  Now,
it's the Aktins' diet and fault and the whole-grain pundits get to hawk.

I think it's risky nowadays to mention Atkins to any health professional.
They'll blame whatever problems you have on this diet.

:: New York, NY - An intriguing case report published in the Lancet this
:: week casts a shadow over the highly contentious Atkins diet [1]. In
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
:: fruit, and vegetables. The American Dietetic Association echoes this
:: weight-loss position, they note.
Beverly - 21 Mar 2006 20:10 GMT
> >:: Roger Zoul wrote:
> >::: Ignoramus31542 wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Note how they mention in passing that she was taking a "thermogenic"
> formula.

Since she indicated she had been following the Atkins diet and using
their supplements I assume she was referring to Atkins Accel.

http://www.atkins.com/products/accel

> ======================================================================
> Woman admitted to hospital for ketoacidosis after following Atkins diet
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
> fruit, and vegetables. The American Dietetic Association echoes this
> weight-loss position, they note.
Joe the Aroma - 21 Mar 2006 20:19 GMT
>>:: Roger Zoul wrote:
>>::: Ignoramus31542 wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 96 lines]
> fruit, and vegetables. The American Dietetic Association echoes this
> weight-loss position, they note.

Personally I got sick from following a low-fat diet... a really nasty virus
a week into the diet that lasted for a month. I wonder if I shoudla'
reported that as a low-fat diet complication?
Tom G - 21 Mar 2006 23:24 GMT
> Personally I got sick from following a low-fat diet... a really nasty virus
> a week into the diet that lasted for a month. I wonder if I shoudla'
> reported that as a low-fat diet complication?

  Absolutely. Years and years of eating crap and being inactive have
nothing to do with ailments. It's only what you've changed in the last month
that makes the difference.  :o)
Joe the Aroma - 22 Mar 2006 15:40 GMT
>> Personally I got sick from following a low-fat diet... a really nasty
> virus
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> month
> that makes the difference.  :o)

Well I didn't get sick all those years. Incidentally, I haven't gotten sick
at all on low-carb. Low fat diets are simply unhealthy.
Cheese - 22 Mar 2006 16:19 GMT
>>> Personally I got sick from following a low-fat diet... a really nasty
>> virus
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Well I didn't get sick all those years. Incidentally, I haven't gotten sick
> at all on low-carb. Low fat diets are simply unhealthy.

Hmmm ... I've been sick ~20 times following a low fat diet plan.  Should
I switch to low carb?  Something like twice a year for 10 years.

Signature

    Cheese

http://cheesensweets.com/contact/cheese

Beverly - 22 Mar 2006 16:40 GMT
> >>> Personally I got sick from following a low-fat diet... a really nasty
> >> virus
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> http://cheesensweets.com/contact/cheese

I might have a better track record than you, Cheese.  My doctor says
the only time I come to see him is when I have poison ivy or sinus
infection brought on by seasonal allergies.  After 63+ years I don't
think I'll be switching from my unhealthy low-fat diet either. We all
need to choose the diet plan that works best for our taste, lifestyle
and health whether it be low-fat, low-carb, etc.  Any diet can be
healthy as long as it's sensible and includes the nutrients we need.

Beverly
Nunya B. - 22 Mar 2006 16:53 GMT
>> >>> Personally I got sick from following a low-fat diet... a really nasty
>> >> virus
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> and health whether it be low-fat, low-carb, etc.  Any diet can be
> healthy as long as it's sensible and includes the nutrients we need.

Well said.
Signature

the volleyballchick

Cheese - 22 Mar 2006 19:15 GMT
>>>>> Personally I got sick from following a low-fat diet... a really nasty
>>>> virus
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Beverly

Nice!
Signature


    Cheese

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Tom G - 22 Mar 2006 17:51 GMT
> >> Personally I got sick from following a low-fat diet... a really nasty
> > virus
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Well I didn't get sick all those years. Incidentally, I haven't gotten sick
> at all on low-carb. Low fat diets are simply unhealthy.

  I also believe low carb is the best way to eat.

 Reading about some of these people that are having complications with low
carb makes me wonder if they were not doing it properly. A co-worker was
claiming to be doing Atkins' diet while he was preparing lunch for himself.
He was making an omelet with plenty of veggies, but had also removed all of
the yokes, and was making it in a no-stick pan, so no oil or butter. I had
also watched him once cook a steak and cut off every little piece of fat
with the precision of a surgeon. He also ate a large salad with no dressing.
 After a few weeks, I ran into him again and asked him how the diet was
going. He claimed that low carb was making him feel ill, and had to quit. He
praised the diet for weight loss, but in the same breath stated that there's
no way someone could do it long term.
 There are some people here that have an aversion to saturated fat, and
would therefore probably remove the fat from a steak. But most, I think are
aware that Atkins' is high fat, so eat fats like olive oil, or other
vegetable oils without worry. This is still workable within Atkins.
 Of course I'm not a doctor. But it seems likely to me that some of these
people with the worst complications may in fact be suffering from a
condition called "Rabbit Starvation". The obese woman in the Lancet article,
"felt nauseous, and was dehydrated after vomiting for several days." She was
also in "moderate distress". This is an accurate description of the symptoms
of "Rabbit Starvation".
Joe the Aroma - 22 Mar 2006 18:05 GMT
>> >> Personally I got sick from following a low-fat diet... a really nasty
>> > virus
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> symptoms
> of "Rabbit Starvation".

I cut back on the sat fats and tried upping my mono fats and feel a tad
better and also seem to be losing weight faster. This is a great diet and I
find that even when I "go off" my diet I trend towards a more low carb fare
of meat, cheese, and veggies. I can't even go off this diet it seems!
Baby Strange - 23 Mar 2006 00:37 GMT
>   Reading about some of these people that are having complications with low
> carb makes me wonder if they were not doing it properly.[...]
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> also in "moderate distress". This is an accurate description of the symptoms
> of "Rabbit Starvation".

[googles "rabbit starvation"]

Wow--that's really interesting. I'd never heard the term before.

One thing I've seen time and again with newcomers to Atkins--or any
diet, for that matter--is an urge to improve on it, thinking that with
a little bit of tweaking they can lose even more weight even faster.
Hell, I've done it myself, and to this day occasionally have to resist
the temptation to try it again.

Thinking "low-carb" means "as close to no-carb as humanly possible," is
one example. Or staying on Induction forever because adding back any
number of carbs, no matter how small, might slow down weight loss--as
if the "O" in OWL means "Obstructing" instead of "Ongoing."

So it wouldn't surprise me at all if this woman decided to improve on
Atkins by making it as low-fat as she possibly could. It's
understandable; when you're bombarded by Fat is Bad propaganda for
years on end, it's a bit scary making the leap to getting most of your
calories from fat.
Cheri - 23 Mar 2006 00:46 GMT
Yep, sort of like the theory that if 2 Tylenol work well, 8 should work
better. ;-)

--
Cheri

Baby Strange wrote in message

>One thing I've seen time and again with newcomers to Atkins--or any
>diet, for that matter--is an urge to improve on it, thinking that with
>a little bit of tweaking they can lose even more weight even faster.
>Hell, I've done it myself, and to this day occasionally have to resist
>the temptation to try it again.
Tom G - 23 Mar 2006 17:20 GMT
> >   Reading about some of these people that are having complications with low
> > carb makes me wonder if they were not doing it properly.[...]
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Wow--that's really interesting. I'd never heard the term before.

   I've read that the natives used to say it was better to fast than to
feel the way you do eating lean meat.

> One thing I've seen time and again with newcomers to Atkins--or any
> diet, for that matter--is an urge to improve on it, thinking that with
> a little bit of tweaking they can lose even more weight even faster.
> Hell, I've done it myself, and to this day occasionally have to resist
> the temptation to try it again.

  That's true. People usually are looking for the quick fix.

> Thinking "low-carb" means "as close to no-carb as humanly possible," is
> one example. Or staying on Induction forever because adding back any
> number of carbs, no matter how small, might slow down weight loss--as
> if the "O" in OWL means "Obstructing" instead of "Ongoing."

  The process of OWL is to learn how to find the right balance of what
works and what doesn't. Short cutting could still allow for weight loss, but
likely a person will only be looking at the diet as a temporary thing rather
than a style of eating for life.

> So it wouldn't surprise me at all if this woman decided to improve on
> Atkins by making it as low-fat as she possibly could. It's
> understandable; when you're bombarded by Fat is Bad propaganda for
> years on end, it's a bit scary making the leap to getting most of your
> calories from fat.

  Your right. People now realize that the refined carbs are not ideal for
us. 'Trouble is, we can't let go of the "fat is bad" mantra.
Bill Eitner - 22 Mar 2006 23:11 GMT
>>> Personally I got sick from following a low-fat diet... a really nasty
>> virus
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Well I didn't get sick all those years. Incidentally, I haven't gotten sick
> at all on low-carb. Low fat diets are simply unhealthy.

    Yea, but the latest spin is that a very low fat
    diet (less than 10% of calories from fat) is what
    is required.  ;-)  You obviously didn't go low
    enough. (ducking and running)
--
Cheese - 23 Mar 2006 00:17 GMT
>>>> Personally I got sick from following a low-fat diet... a really nasty
>>> virus
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>     is required.  ;-)  You obviously didn't go low
>     enough. (ducking and running)

I went down that low for a little while but my body certainly didn't
like it.  Too much protein for my system to properly digest I guess.  My
body is much happier around 20% fat so I don't have to take in above 40%
protein.

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    Cheese

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Bill Eitner - 23 Mar 2006 18:29 GMT
>>>>> Personally I got sick from following a low-fat diet... a really nasty
>>>> virus
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> body is much happier around 20% fat so I don't have to take in above 40%
> protein.

    What were you eating that was providing protein without
    enough fat to push your fat percentage above 10%?

    I'm stalled on low carb and am considering trying a
    very low fat diet for awhile to reset leptin and see
    if it breaks the stall.

    I lift weights and am trying to lose fat while
    maintaining muscle mass.  I believe in the assertion
    that for an average man 80 or even 100 grams of
    protein per day is required to spare muscle.
    On low carb getting 100 grams of protein per day
    is easy.  Getting 100 grams of protein on a very
    low fat diet (while complying with the fat restriction)
    seems like it may be difficult.
--
Cheese - 24 Mar 2006 05:05 GMT
>> I went down that low for a little while but my body certainly didn't
>> like it.  Too much protein for my system to properly digest I guess.  
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>     low fat diet (while complying with the fat restriction)
>     seems like it may be difficult.

I was drinking a Myoplex protein shake after my lunch time workout but
gave it up because of the protein overload I mentioned above.

I'm actually still in the 10% fat range now but I do it a little
differently to keep the protein level more reasonable.

breakfast - Tri-O-Plex protein bar
snack - Banana
lunch - Wrap sandwich w/cold cuts and all the veggies.
snack - Cottage cheese
cocktail hour - 2 Martinis
dinner - Lean meats, veggies and rice or pasta.

1975 calories
132g protein (35%)
138g carbs (36%)
39g fat (10%)
74g alcohol (19%)
Signature


    Cheese

http://cheesensweets.com/contact/cheese

Bill Eitner - 24 Mar 2006 05:14 GMT
    Thanks for the info.
    Your menu suggestion actually
    looked good (doable and not too
    drastic a change).
--

>>> I went down that low for a little while but my body certainly didn't
>>> like it.  Too much protein for my system to properly digest I guess.  
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> 39g fat (10%)
> 74g alcohol (19%)
Doug Freyburger - 21 Mar 2006 20:22 GMT
Ignoramus29446 quoted:

> Note how they mention in passing that she was taking a "thermogenic"
> formula.

I also noted a few other interesting bits.

> On presentation to the emergency room, the patient was in moderate
> distress. She had a respiratory rate of 20 to 30 breaths per minute,
> along with hyperactive bowel sounds and mild epigastric
> tenderness. The doctors note that the obese woman complained of
> dyspnea

I doubled checked by looking up the word on dictionary.com:

dysp·ne·a    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (dsp-n) n.
Difficulty in breathing, often associated with lung or heart disease
and resulting in shortness of breath. Also called air hunger.
[Latin dyspnoea, from Greek duspnoia : dus-, dys- + pnoi, -pnoia,
breathing; see pneu- in Indo-European Roots.]

The interesting part is trouble breathing leads to buildup of lactic
acid, and that leads to lactoacidosis.

> She told doctors she had been strictly following the low-carbohydrate,
> high-protein Atkins diet for the past month, eating primarily meat,
> cheese, and salads.

That's not even Induction, though I suppose trader4 will insist
that she was actually following the directions.

> She also adhered to other Atkins recommendations,
> taking multivitamins, omega-3 fatty acids, electrolytes, and extracts,
> as well as a "thermogenic" formula.

My guess is if it have been an Atkins formula they would have
said so.  A further guess is that it's a bad idea to take whatever
she took with her medical problems.

> The anion gap was high at 26 mmol/L and bicarbonate was
> low at 8 mmol/L.

Acid blood.  Quite consistant with trouble breathing.

> Urine analysis confirmed ketonuria.

Ketones.  Quite consistant with low carbing.

> She was admitted
> to the ICU and given an infusion of dextrose and sodium
> bicarbonate. She was discharged four days later and was without health
> problems three and 18 months later when the doctors spoke with her on
> the telephone.

If it was so life threatening, why was she okay so far down the road?

> Chen and colleagues note that a differential diagnosis of
> high-anion-gap metabolic acidosis includes the ingestion of methanol,
> ethylene glycol, or salicylate; L- or D-lactate acidosis; and
> ketoacidosis due to diabetes mellitus, alcohol, or starvation. The
> doctors ruled these other causes out, however.

Note L- or D-lactate acidosis in the list.  Quite the slam-dunk
conclusion for someone complaining of shortness of breath.  But
the doctors ruled that out.  Not anti-Atkins enough I guess.

> In a Comment [2], Drs Lyn Steffen

Lyn Steffen publications include:
Steffen LM, Jacobs DR, Murtaugh MA, Moran A, Steinberger J, Hong CP,
Sinaiko AR. Whole grain intake is associated with lower body mass and
greater insulin sensitivity among adolescents. Am J Epidemiol, 2003;
158:243-50.
Steffen LM, Jacobs DR, Stevens J, Shahar E, Carithers T, Folsom AR.
Associations of whole grain, refined grain, and fruit and vegetable
consumption with all-cause mortality, incident coronary heart disease
and ischemic stroke: The ARIC Study. Am J Clin Nutr 2003; 78:383-90.
And funding sources include:
2001, Recipient of an American Heart Association Scientist Development
grant.

I conclude that she is paid to be anti-Atkins.

> and Jennifer Nettleton (University of Minnesota, Minneapolis)

Jennifer Nettleton's PhD thesis is in soy:

Nettleton, J. The effects of soy protein
and probiotics on isoflavone and hormone
metabolism in postmenopausal
breast cancer survivors and women with
no cancer history. 207 p. Mindy Kurzer,
advisor.

> write that while the Atkins diet boasts of
> "good health," low-carbohydrate diets are far from healthy

If you're sufficiently biased and haven't read the book.

> given
> their "association with ketosis, constipation or diarrhea, halitosis,
> headache, and general fatigue, to name a few side effects."

If you're sfficiently biased that you think two weeks is forever.

> Moreover, long-term weight management
> for at-risk individuals should be based on increased physical activity
> and dietary modification

That is what the book says after all.

> such as increasing intakes of whole grains,
> fruit, and vegetables. The American Dietetic Association echoes this
> weight-loss position, they note.
Roger Zoul - 21 Mar 2006 20:36 GMT
: Ignoramus29446 quoted:
::
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
: That's not even Induction, though I suppose trader4 will insist
: that she was actually following the directions.

The thing is, unless she brought in details lists including weighed amounts,
etc, no one has a clue what she was really eating.  The very wording of that
sentence suggest that someone just "summarized Atkins".  Hence, it's
meaningless.  All there is here is a "Red Flag of Atkins" at play.

:: She also adhered to other Atkins recommendations,
:: taking multivitamins, omega-3 fatty acids, electrolytes, and
[quoted text clipped - 79 lines]
:: fruit, and vegetables. The American Dietetic Association echoes this
:: weight-loss position, they note.

It's all complete FUD and thus, bullshit.
Ignoramus29446 - 21 Mar 2006 20:51 GMT
> Ignoramus29446 quoted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> The interesting part is trouble breathing leads to buildup of lactic
> acid, and that leads to lactoacidosis.

Supposedly it was "ruled out" (see a couple of paragraphs later where
it is mentioned).

>> She told doctors she had been strictly following the low-carbohydrate,
>> high-protein Atkins diet for the past month, eating primarily meat,
>> cheese, and salads.
>
> That's not even Induction, though I suppose trader4 will insist
> that she was actually following the directions.

That's how I eat, more or less (not much cheese though).

>> She also adhered to other Atkins recommendations,
>> taking multivitamins, omega-3 fatty acids, electrolytes, and extracts,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> said so.  A further guess is that it's a bad idea to take whatever
> she took with her medical problems.

We do not know what exactly we should attribute her condition to,
actually.

>> The anion gap was high at 26 mmol/L and bicarbonate was
>> low at 8 mmol/L.
>
> Acid blood.  Quite consistant with trouble breathing.

Yes.

>> Urine analysis confirmed ketonuria.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> If it was so life threatening, why was she okay so far down the road?

She was not in a very bad shape on admission. (see article)

I am not a doctor and cannot make any meaningful comments on her
medical problems, but this article is strange, at best.

i
Alan S - 22 Mar 2006 01:23 GMT
>She was discharged four days later and was without health
>problems three and 18 months later when the doctors spoke with her on
>the telephone.

One wonders what the big deal is, and whether her obesity
had reduced and other health problems had improved at that
time.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 2x500mg
Signature

Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Andrea - 23 Mar 2006 05:04 GMT
>Anyone know which issue of the Lancet the article appeared in?

Vol 367, issue 9514, March 18-24, 2006, page 958

"A life-threatening complication of Atkins diet"

The whole thing is one page long.

--
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace...
where there is hatred, let me sow love.

remove "spamtrap" for e-mail
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz - 27 Mar 2006 02:37 GMT
=>Alt.support.diabetes readers can enjoy a reference to "ketoacidosis".
=>
=>i
=>======================================================================
=>http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1732719,00.html

--snip snip--
google Professor Klaus-Dieter Lessnau  New York School of Medicine
ketoacidosis
Found
<http://www.health24.com/news/Weight_management_Obesity/1-955,35023.asp>
<http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060317/atkins_diet_060317/
20060317?hub=Health
>

Pay subscription needed
<http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673606683943/fulltext>

---
The more we know, the less we know.
Low carb cures hungry but stop not craving.
k 1 6 8 9 a t  h o t m a i l  d o t  c o m
 
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