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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / March 2006Evidence, honesty, and common sense.
Two anecdotes: 1. My family likes to open a package of cookies, and eat them from the package over a period of time. (While the package sits on top of the cookie jar.) I frequently open the cookie jar (actually a plastic canister), dump in the cookies and through away the package. My wife always complained that she doesn't think they keep as well in there. I always retorted, "This thing is airtight and watertight. How can they not go stale in the unsealed, open-to-the-air package?" Since "common sense" was not working, I decided to prove it. Without her knowledge, I took two cookies, sealed one in a small container, set the other on top of it, draped a scrap of paper towel over it, and put it all in an upper cabinet. Three weeks later, I got it out and ate half of each cookie. I could not tell the difference. Called her in and gave her the other half of each and asked which is better. She said they were the same. So we were both wrong. Think about that when someone says "It's OBVIOUS!" in a discussion about some medical matter. 2. Heard on A.P. Radio News that "the Atkins diet is dangerous!" But after that introduction, I listened to the details. Turns out that some doctor was lamenting that ONE PERSON died of ketosis after eating huge amounts of fat and protein and almost zero carbs and CLAIMING that was the Atkins diet. Moral of the story: Don't be too quick to believe what you hear or read, especially if you hear it or read it in the headlines.  SignatureWes Groleau After the christening of his baby brother in church, Jason sobbed all the way home in the back seat of the car. His father asked him three times what was wrong. Finally, the boy replied, "That preacher said he wanted us brought up in a Christian home, and I wanted to stay with you guys." > Two anecdotes: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > that when someone says "It's OBVIOUS!" in a discussion > about some medical matter. Oh the Joys of living with an Engineer! <g> > 2. Heard on A.P. Radio News that "the Atkins diet is dangerous!" > But after that introduction, I listened to the details. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > hear or read, especially if you hear it or read it in the > headlines. The coverage on that story was egregious! One person dies after eating what they claim is an Atkins diet but wasn't, and who even the doctors say must have had something bizarre going on in her metabolism, and my little small town newspaper runs a headline along the lines of "Doctors warn Atkins diet causes death." Where are the headlines saying: "Doctors warn solid food poses deadly choking hazard!" "Doctors warn driving leads to death!" "Doctors warn family dog fatal to neighbors" etc. etc. --Jenny http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes Diabetes Info http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood Sugar Under Control >Oh the Joys of living with an Engineer! <g> What? What? What's that? Regards Old Al >>Oh the Joys of living with an Engineer! <g> > > What? What? What's that? > >Regards > Old Al I used to work with a group with a lot of young engineers. WE used to hire a lot of very qualified young office staff. The salaries were very poor. Several of these nice girls said that the engineers and the college students I used were good husband stock. Watching for over 20 years, that proved to be true Guy. >> Oh the Joys of living with an Engineer! <g> > > What? What? What's that? Hey, it could be worse. I live with an inventor. You don't want to know what I'll end up with if I complain that the cookies are getting stale. <g> Signature--Jenny http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes Diabetes Info http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood Sugar Under Control >> Two anecdotes: >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> that when someone says "It's OBVIOUS!" in a discussion >> about some medical matter. > Oh the Joys of living with an Engineer! <g> You don't have to be an engineer, just curious and willing to learn. When I was five I had this conversation with my mother. "You remember you told me that eating too much ice cream makes you sick?" "It certainly does, dear." "Well, the little girl at the end of the road has lots of money, and we've been doing an experiment. We've been eating ice cream for hours and we both feel fine. So it's not true." As a young teenager I proved that none of my mother's afternoon tea circle could tell the difference between tea with milk first and milk after. Some preferred one, and some the other, and they were very particular about it. What baffled me was that none of them changed their minds. SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] > "You remember you told me that eating too much ice cream makes you sick?" > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > we've been doing an experiment. We've been eating ice cream for hours > and we both feel fine. So it's not true." Clearly you chose the right career path! In contrast, my son handled cookies this way at the age of five: "Can I have five cookies?" "Of course not?" "How about four?" "Don't be silly." "Well then, two now and one after nap." Can you guess what kind of career he's doing well in now? <G> --Jenny http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes Diabetes Info http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood Sugar Under Control "Moral of the story: Don't be too quick to believe what you hear or read, especially if you hear it or read it in the headlines." Great moral, but methinks about half [or more?] of our continually evolving laws are based on an extremely small sampling. One unfortunate child is injured by a "new-toy" and somebody will demand a law to ban them. > Two anecdotes: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > hear or read, especially if you hear it or read it in the > headlines. I find it hard to believe that the cookie exposed to the add didnt get hard and moldy. For long life, I keep cookies in the refrigerator. Loretta -- In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. > I find it hard to believe that the cookie exposed to the add didnt get > hard and moldy. For long life, I keep cookies in the refrigerator. Well, it didn't. :-) These were Keebler light-colored elf shaped thingies, with chocolate between. Others we sometimes have are oreos, fig newtons, Mr. Chips, etc. Some packages are open for several weeks before the last one is gone. I have never seen mold on any. And they don't get hard. "Stale" cookies are a little bit softer from absorbing moisture from the air. Which only happens when there is humidity to absorb. SignatureWes Groleau Can we afford to be relevant? http://www.cetesol.org/stevick.html >> I find it hard to believe that the cookie exposed to the add didnt get >> hard and moldy. For long life, I keep cookies in the refrigerator. > >Well, it didn't. :-) Bit of a worry. Remember the Maccas that took ages to decay because of preservatives in "Supersize Me"? >These were Keebler light-colored elf shaped thingies, with chocolate >between. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >cookies are a little bit softer from absorbing moisture from the air. >Which only happens when there is humidity to absorb. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 2x500mg SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. : > I find it hard to believe that the cookie exposed to the add didnt get : > hard and moldy. For long life, I keep cookies in the refrigerator. : Well, it didn't. :-) : These were Keebler light-colored elf shaped thingies, with chocolate : between. : Others we sometimes have are oreos, fig newtons, Mr. Chips, etc. : Some packages are open for several weeks before the last one is gone. : I have never seen mold on any. And they don't get hard. "Stale" : cookies are a little bit softer from absorbing moisture from the air. : Which only happens when there is humidity to absorb. My husband keeps cookies around for his snacks adn "hides" them so they are out of sight and out of mind for me. He can eat just one or two adn leave them alone! sometimes, if I get a low, I will take one of his cookies, expecting a treat. what I usually find is a very stale tasting chocolate chip or fig newton cookie. Not worth the carbs:-) I use the cookie as my second phase of raising a low, following 2-3 oz of orange juice. Wendy > Two anecdotes: > Turns out that some doctor was lamenting that ONE PERSON > died of ketosis after eating huge amounts of fat and protein > and almost zero carbs and CLAIMING that was the Atkins diet. > The news report in my area said the person died of ketoacidosis and the Atkins diet caused it. Well, everyone on this group knows that ketoacidosis can only occur in the presencs of high blood glucose levels -- something not likely to happen after eating a pork chop with cauliflower. Cookie > Well, everyone on this group knows that ketoacidosis can only occur in > the presencs of high blood glucose levels -- something not likely to > happen after eating a pork chop with cauliflower. Not everyone. _I_ thought it was caused by the cells not getting enough glucose. When the glucose stays in the blood instead of going into the cells that need it, you have high blood sugar, and the cells produce ketones. When inadequate carbohydrates are available into the blood stream, the blood sugar is low, and the cells aren't getting enough, so they produce ketones as well. I welcome correction..... SignatureWes Groleau The man who says, "I can do it!" may sometimes fail. The man who says, "Impossible!" will never succeed. >> Well, everyone on this group knows that ketoacidosis can only occur in >> the presencs of high blood glucose levels -- something not likely to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I welcome correction..... The human body "feeds itself" in two distinctly different ways. One way is to use glucose as the main food. Except in the brain, liver, and an exercised muscle, this requires insulin. If there is not sufficient glucose to meet the body's energy needs, it will switch to burning fat. A byproduct of this process is something called ketones. The body is capable of burning ketones for fuel, and this is basically how people lose weight. The issue for diabetics is *why* the body makes these switches. If a T-2 lowers carbohydrate consumption, there is less glucose available. The body then will use stored carbohydrate to feed the cells. Since a T-2 usually has adequate, if not excessive, insulin available, until the reserves, stored as glycogen, are exhausted the body remains in a glucose burning mode. When the reserves run out, the body switches to burning fat and producing ketones for energy. In a T-1, who produces little if any insulin, a lack of insulin prevents the glucose from being used up, so it builds up in the blood. Despite the high BG, the body thinks it is starving and changes to ketone-based energy. Ketones are somewhat acidic, and the pH of the blood goes down slightly. The kidneys attempt to shed the excess glucose and ketones through urine, which causes dehydration and concentrates both the BG and acidity from the ketones even more. The higher the BG, the more dehydrated one becomes, and the more acidic the blood becomes. This is the dangerous spiral that can result in DKA, a life threatening condition. It is usually triggered by illness. Taken to extremes, the lowered pH, called anion gap, will eventually cause nerve conduction problems that will cause the heart to be unable to continue beating. The solution is to always provide adequate insulin, so the body can use that glucose. So, the differences between ketones in a T-1 and in a T-2 is whether there is adequate insulin present. In a T-2, who usually has plenty of insulin, it is not a big deal as long as BG is not elevated. In a T-1 who is more likely to have inadequate insulin available, ketones can quickly become a very big deal. Jim > So, the differences between ketones in a T-1 and in a T-2 is whether > there is adequate insulin present. In a T-2, who usually has plenty of > insulin, it is not a big deal as long as BG is not elevated. In a T-1 > who is more likely to have inadequate insulin available, ketones can > quickly become a very big deal. What about T2's whose beta cells are kaput so they must use insulin? bj >>So, the differences between ketones in a T-1 and in a T-2 is whether >>there is adequate insulin present. In a T-2, who usually has plenty of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > What about T2's whose beta cells are kaput so they must use insulin? > bj They would fall into the inadequate insulin category, just like a T-1. While most doctors would probably cringe at the thought, I see no logical reason that a T-1 could not lose weight by a slightly ketogenic diet, although it would probably reduce their "wiggle room" with DKA. Most DKA is the result of an illness. The liver cranks out extra glucose and often the basal requirement skyrockets. If you add in dehydration, you can end up in trouble very quickly. Jim > The human body "feeds itself" in two distinctly different ways. One way > is to use glucose as the main food. Except in [. . .] an > exercised muscle, this requires insulin. Jim, Would you mind explaining this a bit further, or providing a link where I could read up on it? My understanding was that exercised muscles were simply more sensitive to insulin. Thanks, Tina >>The human body "feeds itself" in two distinctly different ways. One way >>is to use glucose as the main food. Except in [. . .] an [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Thanks, > Tina Hello, Tina. This is an area of continuing investigation, but we need to get technical about how glucose gets into the cells, and that is through some unique peptides called GLUT. This is extremely complex stuff, but I'll try to thumbnail some highlights. There are no less than 5 different GLUT peptides that have been identified. Most of the attention lately has been focused on GLUT-4, mainly in research related to finding drugs that will increase its action, giving us a new class of anti-diabetes meds. Much of the foundational work has been reported by a researcher named Laurie Goodyear at Joslin over the past 10 years. You can look at some of her accomplishments and papers at http://www.joslinresearch.org/pinet/CV/cvLJG.pdf We are all familiar with the concept of the "key" and "lock" in the action of insulin and its receptors. When the lock is opened, it causes the major glucose transporter GLUT-4 to move to the cell wall to carry the glucose through the cell membranes, where they are phosphorylated, releasing ATP. You may also see this referred to as the "insulin signalling cascade." It is now thought that there is a separate and distinct form of GLUT-4 which is stimulated by physical muscle contraction. This has given rise to the term "non-insulin dependant glucose uptake". In addition, it appears that this second type of GLUT-4 causes, or is related to, a different mechanism (PI-3 kinase) of energy release from the glucose. Your idea that insulin is more effective after exercise is correct, but since there is a finite number of insulin-related GLUT-4 transporters, this is thought to be due to the action of the additional exercise-related GLUT-4 transporters. I found an article on the Canadian Diabetes Association website that may explain this better than I. It does use a rather peculiar set of analogies to garage doors and trucks, but it might be worth a read. http://www.diabetes.ca/Section_About/fuel.asp I am usually skeptical about body-building websites, but this one seems to be founded in scientific research, and doesn't try to sell you supplements: http://www.dolfzine.com/page406.htm Finally, I think the following URL from Medscape might be helpful: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/413045 There is lots of research going on at the moment, and it looks like we are learning more details about GLUT-4 all the time. Maybe someday we'll all be able to stop on the way home and pick up a six-pack of exercise. I can see it now, "Honey, I'm too tired to clean the garage. I just took two Triathelon tablets!" HTH, Jim On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 13:54:01 -0600, "J.C. Hartmann" <snipped, read, and filed> >There is lots of research going on at the moment, and it looks like we >are learning more details about GLUT-4 all the time. Maybe someday we'll [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Jim Thanks Jim, for some "keepers". The lines between asd and mhd have blurred over the years. I have no problem with that. We need more posts like your last two in this thread. Every time I learn a little more here, I realise how much more there is to learn :-) Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 2x500mg SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. Jim, Thanks very much for the quick response. I haven't had time to read through the links yet, but I will. The reason for my question: Not long ago I was involved in a discussion in which a T2 diabetic was telling someone else they were probably T2 (as opposed to T1) since exercise lowered their blood sugar. I believe her reasoning was that exercise lowers insulin resistance, so if exercise works, there has to be an insulin resistance problem...and since T1s don't produce insulin, exercise by itself wouldn't be able to force the glucose into the cells. I mentioned the fact that not all T1s (particularly those of us with LADA) have an absolute lack of insulin. But now I'm interested to read more about how these GLUT peptides might fit into the picture. Thanks, Tina >Jim, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Thanks, >Tina the person you are referring too should learn to keep their misinformed mouth shut. Exercise does lower BGs for type 1s. Regular exercise gives the same long term benefits for BG control in type 1s as it does in type 2s. Exercise allows type 1s to inject Less insulin to cover a meal they would normally need more for without any exercise (before or after). No one can make a diagnosis of type 1 verses type 2 based on the criteria you mention above. i'm a type 1 Mack if i dont take enough insulin before dinner exercise, my blood glucose rises if i take too much insulin, my blood glucose crashes i take it you don't exercise after meals??? what's the score here for your harsh words to the op? kate SignatureJoin us in the Diabetic-Talk Chatroom on UnderNet /server irc.undernet.org --- /join #Diabetic-Talk More info: http://www.diabetic-talk.org/ http://www.diabetic-talk.org/freeveggies.htm I have no medical qualifications beyond my own experience. Choose your advisers carefully, because experience can be an expensive teacher. > >Jim, > > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > No one can make a diagnosis of type 1 verses type 2 based on the > criteria you mention above. >i'm a type 1 Mack > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >kate I do exercise. And exercise allows me to reduce my insulin needs. SignatureMâck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins Jesus never hated anyone. DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 03:25:42 GMT, Wes Groleau <groleau+news@freeshell.org> Huffed and Puffed the following into the madness of usenet: >> Well, everyone on this group knows that ketoacidosis can only occur in >> the presencs of high blood glucose levels -- something not likely to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >I welcome correction..... Ketones are a by product of the body rapidly burning fat for energy rather than using glucose. You either cannot use the glucose due to a lack of insulin or you are not eating enough carbs to produce the glucose. Diabetic Ketoacidosis is caused by a lack of insulin and is "usually" NOT "always" accompanied by high BG readings. Dietary ketosis is usually benign and a safe way to promote weight loss. But as with anything taken to an extreme it can become harmful. SignatureMâck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o ô) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." ....Bilbo Baggins Jesus never hated anyone. DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... . |
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