Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / March 2006
Under-recognised paradox of neuropathy from rapid glycaemic control
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Ozgirl - 14 Mar 2006 12:01 GMT http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/81/952/103
"Insulin induced neuropathy has been reported previously in people with diabetes treated with insulin, and subsequently reported in patients with insulinomas. However, neuropathy caused by rapid glycaemic control in patients with poorly controlled diabetes with chronic hyperglycaemia is not a widely recognised entity among clinicians worldwide. It is expected that this phenomenon of paradoxical complication of neuropathy in the face of drastic decreases in glycosylated haemoglobin concentrations will assume greater importance with clinicians achieving glycaemic targets at a faster pace than before."
""Insulin neuritis" surfaced after the dawn of insulin therapy back in the first quarter of the past century, and represented the earliest report of neuropathy accompanying rapid reversal of hyperglycaemia. This is usually a distal sensory polyneuropathy developing within a month of aggressive diabetic control with intensive insulin therapy. In time, reports of similar peripheral neuropathy were also found in patients with insulinomas. Enigmatically, this complication has yet to be reported with comparable frequency in those treated with oral antidiabetic agents. It is indeed possible that other forms of neuropathy such as diabetic autonomic neuropathy could also be worsened or precipitated by acute reversal of chronic hyperglycaemia, but this possibility will only become apparent as more cases are reported in the literature."
"It is common knowledge that a "learning curve" generally influences the incidence of complications for any new medical intervention. Unfortunately, it is not clear exactly what proportion of physicians treating diabetics are actually aware of the possibility of causing potential harm to nerve function as a complication of intensified glycaemic control. While evidence from studies such as the DCCT and UKPDS form the basis of daily clinical practice, it is still largely oblivious to clinicians that highly intensive treatment that rapidly achieves glycaemic targets may ironically be undesirable and even have deleterious impacts on microvascular outcomes."
Ozgirl - 14 Mar 2006 12:03 GMT > http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/81/952/103 "Learning points
a.. For patients with a brief history of poorly controlled diabetes, the risk versus benefit analysis overwhelmingly favours rapid glycaemic control.
b.. In diabetic patients with chronically poor glycaemic control, with the exceptions of hyperglycaemic emergencies such as diabetic ketoacidosis or hyperglycaemic-hyperosmolar non-ketototic coma, it is prudent to attain their glycaemic targets over a gradual time frame to avoid acute deterioration and precipitation of retinopathy and neuropathy."
Chris J. - 15 Mar 2006 21:02 GMT >> http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/81/952/103 > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >diabetes, the risk versus benefit analysis overwhelmingly >favours rapid glycaemic control. But, with a T2, it's often the case that they have been undiagnosed for years, so they might have a long history.
Jan, thank you for posting this article! It ties in rather well with what I've been learning about eye problems from the same cause.
> b.. In diabetic patients with chronically poor glycaemic >control, with the exceptions of hyperglycaemic emergencies [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >deterioration and precipitation of retinopathy and >neuropathy." I'd sure like to see a study done on this (and as near as I can tell, there hasn't been one), as all we really have is supposition and extrapolation. However, it seems like the most logical approach to me. Taking a few months to reduce BG levels that have been high for years might indeed be the most prudent approach.
David - 15 Mar 2006 21:21 GMT >>>http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/81/952/103 >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Taking a few months to reduce BG levels that have been high for years > might indeed be the most prudent approach. oh, boy ANOTHER study! What do you want the results to be, Chris? If you look long and hard enough, you'll find a study that will fit your needs. If you don't like the results from one on a particular topic, just keep searching until you find one with different conclusions.
Dave
Ozgirl - 16 Mar 2006 00:36 GMT > >>>http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/81/952/103 > >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > needs. If you don't like the results from one on a particular topic, > just keep searching until you find one with different conclusions. What's wrong with this study? It is just another bit of information to add to the collection. You frequently post links to studies in here. For years in these newsgroups people who have started treating neuropathy find they get worse before they get better. It may tie in with this information. You seem to have a problem with people educating themselves. It's not like the urls people post are coming from homeopathic sites and bizarre nutrition sites. Did you read the study by the way? Just about everything mary learned in Nurses College would have been the result of studies and trials and research. No way around it, Dave.
David - 16 Mar 2006 01:21 GMT >>>>>http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/81/952/103 >>>> [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > mary learned in Nurses College would have been the result of > studies and trials and research. No way around it, Dave. oh, sorry, I wasn't directing my comments at a PARTICULAR study, Oz. I was speaking to the fact that there is a study that will compliment just about any argument one wishes to posit here. :)
I don't think all studies are bad. But on the other hand, I know there are literally countless studies that are flawed and or downright fraud. Don't take my comments to mean that I think there aren't any substantially accurate studies out there in the field of DM.
dave
Chris J. - 16 Mar 2006 05:23 GMT >> I'd sure like to see a study done on this (and as near as I can tell, >> there hasn't been one), as all we really have is supposition and >> extrapolation. However, it seems like the most logical approach to me. >> Taking a few months to reduce BG levels that have been high for years >> might indeed be the most prudent approach.
>oh, boy ANOTHER study! What do you want the results to be, Chris? I want them to be accurate.
The question is simple: is a slower lowering of BG's better for avoiding Normoglycemic re-entry phenomenon and neuropathy from rapid glycemic control?
I think the answer to that question would be of great importance to anyone upon getting a DX for DM.
Regarding normoglycemic re-entry retinopathny, even my two experts (Ophthalmologic and retinal specialist) disagree. The retinal specialist thinks slower might be better, the ophthalmologist things faster is better.
>If >you look long and hard enough, you'll find a study that will fit your >needs. I'd like to think so, but I've looked (regarding normoglycemic re-entry syndrome) and haven't found one that has even looked at the relative speed of BG reduction. Also, both my ophthalmologist and retinal specialist have told me they haven't heard of any studies, either. So, I'll keep looking, but I am beginning to doubt there is one out there to find.
Jenny - 16 Mar 2006 16:19 GMT > I'd like to think so, but I've looked (regarding normoglycemic > re-entry syndrome) and haven't found one that has even looked at the > relative speed of BG reduction. Also, both my ophthalmologist and > retinal specialist have told me they haven't heard of any studies, > either. So, I'll keep looking, but I am beginning to doubt there is > one out there to find. Considering that the average A1c of type 2 "diabetics" in just about any medical study you'll ever see is 8% or more, worrying about problems caused by establishing good control is the very last thing that doctors have to worry about.
Most type diabetics are so far out of control that a drug is hailed as a wonderful treatment if it makes a 1% decrease in that already much too high A1c, and that is about ALL that most of the drugs that most diabetics are on can achieve. (And we all know what the "diet" of most diabetics looks like, too. Take a gander at those potatoes on the cover of Diabetic Living!)
--Jenny
http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes Diabetes Info
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood Sugar Under Control
Chris J. - 16 Mar 2006 21:54 GMT >> I'd like to think so, but I've looked (regarding normoglycemic >> re-entry syndrome) and haven't found one that has even looked at the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >caused by establishing good control is the very last thing that doctors >have to worry about. I disagree on that aspect. The neuropathy and especially retinopathy are extremely serious complications that can occur due to a lowering of BGs, and *IF* they are avoidable by a more gradual lowering (say, months instead of weeks) then that would be vital to find out and act on.
If, say, taking an extra month to lower BG's would lessen the chances of these two effects (and who knows what other complications) then for many people it would be worth doing. This is why I feel that this needs to be studied.
>Most type diabetics are so far out of control that a drug is hailed as a >wonderful treatment if it makes a 1% decrease in that already much too >high A1c, and that is about ALL that most of the drugs that most >diabetics are on can achieve. (And we all know what the "diet" of most >diabetics looks like, too. Take a gander at those potatoes on the cover >of Diabetic Living!) I just had to see that, so I took a quick look at their website, and the most recent one I see is Fall of 2005. That one isn't potatoes, It's a CAKE! But, I'm sure it's quite all right, because it doesn't have sugar in it, just loads of white flour. UGH!
I'll keep an eye out for the potatoes one. That makes as much sense as all-you-can-eat buffets and pie-eating contests for the weight watchers magazine. ACK!
Jenny - 17 Mar 2006 02:08 GMT Take a gander at those potatoes on the cover
>> of Diabetic Living!) > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > all-you-can-eat buffets and pie-eating contests for the weight > watchers magazine. ACK! Maybe it wasn't Diabetic Living. My Other Half saw whatever magazine it was in the Grocery store this week and came home raving about it and asking "are they EVER going to stop killing diabetics?"
 Signature --Jenny
http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes Diabetes Info
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood Sugar Under Control
Jefferson - 15 Mar 2006 17:32 GMT Hi Jan:
Under-recognised paradox of neuropathy from rapid glycaemic control
> http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/81/952/103 Your second excellent find on the subject of diabetic complications from rapid glycemic control, the other being in the Retinopathy Progression thread - http://medweb.bham.ac.uk/easdec/retinopathyprogression.htm. Home page of the organization - http://medweb.bham.ac.uk/easdec/index.html
This graph at least shows a representation of the phenomena in question. Figure 2 Hypothetical relation of risk of neuropathy with rate of glycaemic control.- http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/81/952/103/F2
While the question of optimal timing is not resolved in this article, it does present the idea that studies should be done to get a better idea of the "U" shaped curve conceptualized in figure 2, i.e., the appropriate pacing of glycemic control in people with extreme hyperglycemia.
"This is usually a distal sensory polyneuropathy developing within a month of aggressive diabetic control with intensive insulin therapy. ...
While evidence from studies such as the DCCT and UKPDS form the basis of daily clinical practice, it is still largely oblivious to clinicians that highly intensive treatment that rapidly achieves glycaemic targets may ironically be undesirable and even have deleterious impacts on microvascular outcomes. This is because neuropathy has been so well established as a known microvascular complication of poorly controlled diabetes that it becomes counter intuitive to imagine that rapid glycaemic control should result in the very form of complication that good control is supposed to prevent. ...
Diabetic neuropathy is an established microvascular complication related to suboptimal glycaemic control. But hyperglycaemia is not the sole factor in the pathogenesis of neuropathy in people with diabetes.1 Scattered throughout the medical literature are sporadic reports of deterioration of neuropathy that apparently occurred during dramatic resolution of chronic hyperglycaemia, associated with precipitous declines in glycosylated haemoglobin (HbA1c) concentrations.2,3 This unexpected phenomenon implicates hypoglycaemia in the precipitation of neuropathy in both patients with pre-existing neuropathy and normal baseline neurological status, given that those without a history of neuropathy develop it after they become afflicted with insulinomas.4 It is debatable as to whether the mere rapid attainment of euglycaemia, associated with drastic decreases in HbA1c concentrations without hypoglycaemic episodes punctuating the clinical course, can result in this complication likewise. While the mechanisms of such seemingly paradoxical results are being unravelled, it is prudent to instil in clinicians the awareness of such entities and emphasise the dual edged sword of rapid normalisation of chronically raised blood glucose concentrations as the universal strive to reach satisfactory glycaemic end points continues."
The list of references at the end of the article had many citations that used terms like "hypoglycemic peripheral neuropathy." It seems that hypoglycemia can reduce blood supply to the nerves and cause neuropathy. The author also cited studies that discounted the possibility that hyperinsulinimea from a person's own insulin could have this effect.
morris - 17 Mar 2006 03:16 GMT I have heard people complain of this before--their blood sugar is lowering and all of a sudden they experience neuropathy for the first time. I have always thought this was because neuropathy, resulitng from long term hyoerglycemia, was about to become apparent anyway. In other words the fact that they were achieving some control at the moment that the neuropathy became evident was actually a coincidence. I see the possibliity in this thread that hypoglycemia can also cause neuropathy, but is that common among hypoglycemics who are not diabetic?
Another thing that happens is that nerve damage can reverse as normal blood sugar levels are restored. So that nerve pathways that had turned off get turned back on. Both the turning off and the subsequent turning on are aaccompanied by electric jolts that are actually quite similar. So in some cases the seemng onset of nueuropathy while attaining glycemic control may actually be the reversal of previously undiagnosed neuropathy. To esperience this as something new would of course require somebody to have not nnoticed the first round, but is amazing how much can go undetected when we are stoic and don;t know what to look for.
Morris
guy - 17 Mar 2006 05:13 GMT >I have heard people complain of this before--their blood sugar is >lowering and all of a sudden they experience neuropathy for the first [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Morris I had a case of neuropathy that was very mean. NOTHING helped it.
I found MHD and learned from some great people.
Established a good program to achieve reasonable blood glucose level on a 24/7 basis.
AT first it was worse, then started to improve. for the last ten years I have little problem unless I overeat.
In my case there was consideration about cutting some nerves in my legs.
My best GUESS Is that my nerves were damaged but still alive. When they started to recover they went wild for a while. Then a great improvement.
For the record, I did not escape some things,Like loss of a leg, many laser hits to save my eyes. and a dozen other things.
My advice it to stop fiddling with the junk things and go a basic solid problem.Quit looking for miracles. Pl;enty of miracles to make an easy buck.
Quit listening to the totally unqualified and their dreamed up things.
I had an excuse of ignorance but it cost me. TODAY, You do not have the excuse option. Go to a search tool. and type --diabetes-- and read for a week. Selecting a good doc is a great plus. Guy
Jenny - 17 Mar 2006 15:04 GMT > I have heard people complain of this before--their blood sugar is > lowering and all of a sudden they experience neuropathy for the first > time. I had always heard that neuropathic pain can worsen when nerves begin to heal and that was the explanation for this known phenomenon.
That certainly was what happened to me when my compressed nerves came back from being totally numb. It hurt like hell for quite a while! And that is also happening to someone I know who is recovering from a severe crush injury where the nerves are growing back after a big chunk of flesh was removed.
The articles cited talk a lot about damage from insulin-caused hypo, which are not something that necessarily have to accompany swift lowering of blood sugar after diagnosis.
--Jenny
http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes Diabetes Info
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood Sugar Under Control
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