Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / March 2006

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Under-recognised paradox of neuropathy from rapid glycaemic control

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Ozgirl - 14 Mar 2006 12:01 GMT
http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/81/952/103

"Insulin induced neuropathy has been reported previously in
people with diabetes treated with insulin, and subsequently
reported in patients with insulinomas. However, neuropathy
caused by rapid glycaemic control in patients with poorly
controlled diabetes with chronic hyperglycaemia is not a
widely recognised entity among clinicians worldwide. It is
expected that this phenomenon of paradoxical complication of
neuropathy in the face of drastic decreases in glycosylated
haemoglobin concentrations will assume greater importance
with clinicians achieving glycaemic targets at a faster pace
than before."

""Insulin neuritis" surfaced after the dawn of insulin
therapy back in the first quarter of the past century, and
represented the earliest report of neuropathy accompanying
rapid reversal of hyperglycaemia. This is usually a distal
sensory polyneuropathy developing within a month of
aggressive diabetic control with intensive insulin therapy.
In time, reports of similar peripheral neuropathy were also
found in patients with insulinomas. Enigmatically, this
complication has yet to be reported with comparable
frequency in those treated with oral antidiabetic agents. It
is indeed possible that other forms of neuropathy such as
diabetic autonomic neuropathy could also be worsened or
precipitated by acute reversal of chronic hyperglycaemia,
but this possibility will only become apparent as more cases
are reported in the literature."

"It is common knowledge that a "learning curve" generally
influences the incidence of complications for any new
medical intervention. Unfortunately, it is not clear exactly
what proportion of physicians treating diabetics are
actually aware of the possibility of causing potential harm
to nerve function as a complication of intensified glycaemic
control. While evidence from studies such as the DCCT and
UKPDS form the basis of daily clinical practice, it is still
largely oblivious to clinicians that highly intensive
treatment that rapidly achieves glycaemic targets may
ironically be undesirable and even have deleterious impacts
on microvascular outcomes."
Ozgirl - 14 Mar 2006 12:03 GMT
> http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/81/952/103

"Learning points

 a.. For patients with a brief history of poorly controlled
diabetes, the risk versus benefit analysis overwhelmingly
favours rapid glycaemic control.

 b.. In diabetic patients with chronically poor glycaemic
control, with the exceptions of hyperglycaemic emergencies
such as diabetic ketoacidosis or hyperglycaemic-hyperosmolar
non-ketototic coma, it is prudent to attain their glycaemic
targets over a gradual time frame to avoid acute
deterioration and precipitation of retinopathy and
neuropathy."
Chris J. - 15 Mar 2006 21:02 GMT
>> http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/81/952/103
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>diabetes, the risk versus benefit analysis overwhelmingly
>favours rapid glycaemic control.

But, with a T2, it's often the case that they have been undiagnosed
for years, so they might have a long history.

Jan, thank you for posting this article! It ties in rather well with
what I've been learning about eye problems from the same cause.

>  b.. In diabetic patients with chronically poor glycaemic
>control, with the exceptions of hyperglycaemic emergencies
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>deterioration and precipitation of retinopathy and
>neuropathy."

I'd sure like to see a study done on this (and as near as I can tell,
there hasn't been one), as all we really have is supposition and
extrapolation. However, it seems like the most logical approach to me.
Taking a few months to reduce BG levels that have been high for years
might indeed be the most prudent approach.
David - 15 Mar 2006 21:21 GMT
>>>http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/81/952/103
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Taking a few months to reduce BG levels that have been high for years
> might indeed be the most prudent approach.

oh, boy ANOTHER study!  What do you want the results to be, Chris?  If
you look long and hard enough, you'll find a study that will fit your
needs.  If you don't like the results from one on a particular topic,
just keep searching until you find one with different conclusions.

Dave
Ozgirl - 16 Mar 2006 00:36 GMT
> >>>http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/81/952/103
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> needs.  If you don't like the results from one on a particular topic,
> just keep searching until you find one with different conclusions.

What's wrong with this study? It is just another bit of
information to add to the collection. You frequently post
links to studies in here. For years in these newsgroups
people who have started treating neuropathy find they get
worse before they get better. It may tie in with this
information. You seem to have a problem with people
educating themselves. It's not like the urls people post are
coming from homeopathic sites and bizarre nutrition sites.
Did you read the study by the way?  Just about everything
mary learned in Nurses College would have been the result of
studies and trials and research. No way around it, Dave.
David - 16 Mar 2006 01:21 GMT
>>>>>http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/81/952/103
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 89 lines]
> mary learned in Nurses College would have been the result of
> studies and trials and research. No way around it, Dave.

oh, sorry, I wasn't directing my comments at a PARTICULAR study, Oz.  I
was speaking to the fact that there is a study that will compliment just
about any argument one wishes to posit here.  :)

I don't think all studies are bad.  But on the other hand, I know there
are literally countless studies that are flawed and or downright fraud.
 Don't take my comments to mean that I think there aren't any
substantially accurate studies out there in the field of DM.

dave
Chris J. - 16 Mar 2006 05:23 GMT
>> I'd sure like to see a study done on this (and as near as I can tell,
>> there hasn't been one), as all we really have is supposition and
>> extrapolation. However, it seems like the most logical approach to me.
>> Taking a few months to reduce BG levels that have been high for years
>> might indeed be the most prudent approach.

>oh, boy ANOTHER study!  What do you want the results to be, Chris?

I want them to be accurate.

The question is simple: is a slower lowering of BG's better for
avoiding Normoglycemic re-entry phenomenon and neuropathy from rapid
glycemic control?

I think the answer to that question would be of great importance to
anyone upon getting a DX for DM.

Regarding normoglycemic re-entry retinopathny, even my two experts
(Ophthalmologic and retinal specialist) disagree. The retinal
specialist thinks slower might be better, the ophthalmologist things
faster is better.  

>If
>you look long and hard enough, you'll find a study that will fit your
>needs.

I'd like to think so, but I've looked (regarding normoglycemic
re-entry syndrome) and haven't found one that has even looked at the
relative speed of BG reduction. Also, both my ophthalmologist and
retinal specialist have told me they haven't heard of any studies,
either. So, I'll keep looking, but I am beginning to doubt there is
one out there to find.  
Jenny - 16 Mar 2006 16:19 GMT
> I'd like to think so, but I've looked (regarding normoglycemic
> re-entry syndrome) and haven't found one that has even looked at the
> relative speed of BG reduction. Also, both my ophthalmologist and
> retinal specialist have told me they haven't heard of any studies,
> either. So, I'll keep looking, but I am beginning to doubt there is
> one out there to find.  

Considering that the average A1c of type 2 "diabetics" in just about any
medical study you'll ever see is 8% or more, worrying about problems
caused by establishing good control is the very last thing that doctors
have to worry about.

Most type diabetics are so far out of control that a drug is hailed as a
wonderful treatment if it makes a 1% decrease in that already much too
high A1c, and that is about ALL that most of the drugs that most
diabetics are on can achieve. (And we all know what the "diet" of most
diabetics looks like, too. Take a gander at those potatoes on the cover
of Diabetic Living!)

--Jenny

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
Sugar Under Control
Chris J. - 16 Mar 2006 21:54 GMT
>> I'd like to think so, but I've looked (regarding normoglycemic
>> re-entry syndrome) and haven't found one that has even looked at the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>caused by establishing good control is the very last thing that doctors
>have to worry about.

I disagree on that aspect. The neuropathy and especially retinopathy
are extremely serious complications that can occur due to a lowering
of BGs, and *IF* they are avoidable by a more gradual lowering (say,
months instead of weeks) then that would be vital to find out and act
on.

If, say, taking an extra month to lower BG's would lessen the chances
of these two effects (and who knows what other complications) then for
many people it would be worth doing. This is why I feel that this
needs to be studied.

>Most type diabetics are so far out of control that a drug is hailed as a
>wonderful treatment if it makes a 1% decrease in that already much too
>high A1c, and that is about ALL that most of the drugs that most
>diabetics are on can achieve. (And we all know what the "diet" of most
>diabetics looks like, too. Take a gander at those potatoes on the cover
>of Diabetic Living!)

I just had to see that, so I took a quick look at their website, and
the most recent one I see is Fall of 2005. That one isn't potatoes,
It's a CAKE! But, I'm sure it's quite all right, because it doesn't
have sugar in it, just loads of white flour. UGH!  

I'll keep an eye out for the potatoes one. That makes as much sense as
all-you-can-eat buffets and pie-eating contests for the weight
watchers magazine. ACK!
Jenny - 17 Mar 2006 02:08 GMT
Take a gander at those potatoes on the cover
>> of Diabetic Living!)
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> all-you-can-eat buffets and pie-eating contests for the weight
> watchers magazine. ACK!

Maybe it wasn't Diabetic Living. My Other Half saw whatever magazine it
was in the Grocery store this week and came home raving about it and
asking "are they EVER going to stop killing diabetics?"

Signature

--Jenny

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
Sugar Under Control

Jefferson - 15 Mar 2006 17:32 GMT
Hi Jan:

Under-recognised paradox of neuropathy from rapid glycaemic control
> http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/81/952/103

Your second excellent find on the subject of diabetic complications from
rapid glycemic control, the other being in the Retinopathy Progression
thread - http://medweb.bham.ac.uk/easdec/retinopathyprogression.htm.
Home page of the organization - http://medweb.bham.ac.uk/easdec/index.html

This graph at least shows a representation of the phenomena in question.
Figure 2  Hypothetical relation of risk of neuropathy with rate of
glycaemic control.-
http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/81/952/103/F2

While the question of optimal timing is not resolved in this article, it
does present the idea that studies should be done to get a better idea
of the "U" shaped curve conceptualized in figure 2, i.e., the
appropriate pacing of glycemic control in people with extreme hyperglycemia.

"This is usually a distal sensory polyneuropathy developing within a
month of aggressive diabetic control with intensive insulin therapy. ...

While evidence from studies such as the DCCT and UKPDS form the basis of
daily clinical practice, it is still largely oblivious to clinicians
that highly intensive treatment that rapidly achieves glycaemic targets
may ironically be undesirable and even have deleterious impacts on
microvascular outcomes. This is because neuropathy has been so well
established as a known microvascular complication of poorly controlled
diabetes that it becomes counter intuitive to imagine that rapid
glycaemic control should result in the very form of complication that
good control is supposed to prevent. ...

Diabetic neuropathy is an established microvascular complication related
to suboptimal glycaemic control. But hyperglycaemia is not the sole
factor in the pathogenesis of neuropathy in people with diabetes.1
Scattered throughout the medical literature are sporadic reports of
deterioration of neuropathy that apparently occurred during dramatic
resolution of chronic hyperglycaemia, associated with precipitous
declines in glycosylated haemoglobin (HbA1c) concentrations.2,3 This
unexpected phenomenon implicates hypoglycaemia in the precipitation of
neuropathy in both patients with pre-existing neuropathy and normal
baseline neurological status, given that those without a history of
neuropathy develop it after they become afflicted with insulinomas.4 It
is debatable as to whether the mere rapid attainment of euglycaemia,
associated with drastic decreases in HbA1c concentrations without
hypoglycaemic episodes punctuating the clinical course, can result in
this complication likewise. While the mechanisms of such seemingly
paradoxical results are being unravelled, it is prudent to instil in
clinicians the awareness of such entities and emphasise the dual edged
sword of rapid normalisation of chronically raised blood glucose
concentrations as the universal strive to reach satisfactory glycaemic
end points continues."

The list of references at the end of the article had many citations that
used terms like "hypoglycemic peripheral neuropathy."  It seems that
hypoglycemia can reduce blood supply to the nerves and cause neuropathy.
The author also cited studies that discounted the possibility that
hyperinsulinimea from a person's own insulin could have this effect.
morris - 17 Mar 2006 03:16 GMT
I have heard people complain of this before--their blood sugar is
lowering and all of a sudden they experience neuropathy for the first
time. I have always thought this was because neuropathy, resulitng from
long term hyoerglycemia,  was about to become apparent anyway. In other
words the fact that they were achieving some control at the moment that
the neuropathy became evident was actually a coincidence.  I see the
possibliity in this thread that hypoglycemia can also cause neuropathy,
but is that common among hypoglycemics who are not diabetic?

Another thing that happens is that nerve damage can reverse as normal
blood sugar levels are restored. So that nerve pathways that had turned
off get turned back on.  Both the turning off and the subsequent
turning on are aaccompanied by electric jolts that are actually quite
similar. So in some cases the seemng onset of nueuropathy while
attaining glycemic control may actually be the reversal of previously
undiagnosed neuropathy.  To esperience this as something new would of
course require somebody to have not nnoticed the first round, but is
amazing how much can go undetected when we are stoic and don;t know
what to look for.

Morris
guy - 17 Mar 2006 05:13 GMT
>I have heard people complain of this before--their blood sugar is
>lowering and all of a sudden they experience neuropathy for the first
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>Morris

I had a case of neuropathy that was very mean.  NOTHING
helped it.

I found MHD and learned from some great people.

Established a good program to achieve reasonable blood
glucose level on a 24/7 basis.

AT first it was worse, then started to improve.   for the
last ten years I have little problem unless I overeat.

In my case there was consideration about cutting some
nerves in my legs.

My best GUESS Is that my nerves were damaged but
still alive.   When they started to recover they went
wild for a while. Then a great improvement.

For the record, I did not escape some things,Like loss
of a leg,  many laser hits to save my eyes.  and
a dozen other things.

My advice it to stop fiddling with the junk things
and go a basic solid problem.Quit looking
for miracles.  Pl;enty of miracles to make an easy buck.

Quit listening to the totally unqualified and their
dreamed up things.

I had an excuse of ignorance but it cost me.

TODAY,  You do not have the excuse option.
Go to a search tool. and type --diabetes-- and
read for a week.  Selecting a good doc is
a great plus.
                                           Guy
Jenny - 17 Mar 2006 15:04 GMT
> I have heard people complain of this before--their blood sugar is
> lowering and all of a sudden they experience neuropathy for the first
> time.

I had always heard that neuropathic pain can worsen when nerves begin to
heal and that was the explanation for this known phenomenon.

That certainly was what happened to me when my compressed nerves came
back from being totally numb. It hurt like hell for quite a while!  And
that is also happening to someone I know who is recovering from a severe
crush injury where the nerves are growing back after a big chunk of
flesh was removed.

The articles cited talk a lot about damage from insulin-caused hypo,
which are not something that necessarily have to accompany swift
lowering of blood sugar after diagnosis.

--Jenny

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
Sugar Under Control
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.