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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / March 2006

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Why prescription insulin?

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Anon - 11 Mar 2006 23:27 GMT
I use both Lantus and Novolog insulin. They both require a prescription
while a lot of other types of insulin do not.

Does anyone know why?

Anon
David - 11 Mar 2006 23:36 GMT
> I use both Lantus and Novolog insulin. They both require a prescription
> while a lot of other types of insulin do not.
>
> Does anyone know why?
>
> Anon

analogs require Rx's.  why?  don't know.

Dave
Saxology - 12 Mar 2006 05:10 GMT
>> I use both Lantus and Novolog insulin. They both require a prescription
>> while a lot of other types of insulin do not.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Dave

Pardon my stupidity... again... but analog?  versus digital?  Please explain
a bit more.
Thanks,
Sax
Alexander Arnakis - 12 Mar 2006 06:52 GMT
>Pardon my stupidity... again... but analog?  versus digital?  Please explain
>a bit more.

Insulin analogs (like Humalog and Lantus) are "designer" molecules
that are "analogous" to human insulin, but not identical to it.
Therefore they can be given enhanced properties.
J.C. Hartmann - 12 Mar 2006 07:20 GMT
> Pardon my stupidity... again... but analog?  versus digital?  Please explain
> a bit more.
> Thanks,
> Sax

To really understand how any drug or hormone works in the body, it may
help to learn two words. Pharmacology describes the chemical or amino
acid structure of a compound. Pharmacokinetics describes how these
compounds work in the body.

Human insulin (as made by the human beta-cells) is made up of a chain of
amino acids in a specific order. The order that the individual amino
acids take is the pharmacology of human insulin. The pharmacokinetics of
human insulin includes which receptor sites on cells the insulin
attaches to, what happens when it does.

Animal insulin is made from grinding up the pancreases of slaughtered
animals. Pork insulin only has a couple of transpositions or differences
in the amino acid formula from human insulin. Beef insulin has a few
more differences from human insulin than pork. These pharmacological
differences are minor enough to make the animal insulins look enough
like human insulin to have similar pharmacokinetics in a human body.

Human insulins created via rDNA technology in laboratory vats (Humulin
and Novolin)  are man-made to be as close to real human insulin as
possible. You can think of them as human insulin clones.

Analog (or analogue) insulins are man-made using the rDNA cloning
processes above, but the order of the amino acids in the chain
(pharmacology) are purposely selected and ordered for a specific
purpose. The body recognizes these as insulin, but the purposeful
differences between them and human insulin causes their unique
characteristics (their pharmacokinetics). One of these characteristics
in Humalog and Novolog is very fast absorption and action within the body.

Other analogs include Lantus, Levemir, and Apidra which are custom
manmade chains of amino acids which have specific custom designed
characteristics.

I'll attempt to answer the other open question in this thread. At one
time, it was thought that the pharmacokinetics of the first analog
(Humalog) were so different from the rDNA Regular insulin that people
were used to using, that it could be dangerous unless carefully
monitored by a doctor. That was the excuse for making Humalog a
Class-III controlled substance, i.e., a medicine requiring a prescription.

Interestingly enough, this approach was pushed very hard by the
pharmaceutical companies with the FDA in the US. Why would a company
choose to purposely limit the availability of one of its products, and
therefore, the gross income derived from that product? If one discounts
altruism as the motive, and I think that is a safe bet with Big Pharma,
the reason must be economic. By making its new analog "special", and
requiring a script, they could charge vastly more for the same volume of
product, thereby raising their profit. And so Humalog has a street price
of about 3x that of Humulin-R.

Unfortunately, this precedent remains today for the newer analogs.
Lantus is arguably very similar to UL, but since it is C-III it can
demand a price roughly 3x that of UL. Now, the new analogs have
supplanted the older insulins, like Humulin-UL, and actually caused UL
to be discontinued. The only easily available true basal insulins in the
US are now analogs, which sell for roughly 3x the price of the older
insulins they replaced. So, Big Pharma just tripled their profits while
selling the same quantity of rDNA insulin.

As Jacob Smirnoff said, "What a country!"

Jim
Anon - 12 Mar 2006 07:48 GMT
>> Pardon my stupidity... again... but analog?  versus digital?  Please
>> explain a bit more.
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
>
> Jim

I remember reading on ASD that UltraLente insulin would be discontinued, I
think in Dec 05. Evidently it has not been discontinued yet, it is still
available from many online sources including drugstore.com.

Anon
TigerLily - 12 Mar 2006 19:02 GMT
try to order it Anon

it's not available any longer....... it's all
gone!

kate
Signature

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I have no medical qualifications beyond my own
experience.
Choose your advisers carefully, because experience
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an expensive teacher.

> I remember reading on ASD that UltraLente insulin would be discontinued, I
> think in Dec 05. Evidently it has not been discontinued yet, it is still
> available from many online sources including drugstore.com.
>
> Anon
guy - 12 Mar 2006 08:10 GMT
>> Pardon my stupidity... again... but analog?  versus digital?  Please explain
>> a bit more.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>acid structure of a compound. Pharmacokinetics describes how these
>compounds work in the body.

>As Jacob Smirnoff said, "What a country!"
>
>Jim

JIm, Thank you for a very good post.
                                       Guy
Uncle Enrico - 12 Mar 2006 16:48 GMT
Good post, J.C.  Do we know of any "safety" issues connected to these
analogs to justify the script requirement and the presumed "monitoring" by a
physician? Otherwise, the script requirement would be ripe for overturning
politically given the costs to those diabetics without insurance.

>> Pardon my stupidity... again... but analog?  versus digital?  Please
>> explain a bit more.
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
>
> Jim
Karen C. - 13 Mar 2006 17:47 GMT
I poked my head in here to ask questions in January, when I was
diagnosed with cardio-metabolic syndrome.  At that time, my BG
was 119, but it wasn't a fasting BG test.  So I questioned
whether I really needed to go on the meds.  It was recommended
that I get a fasting BG.  I contacted the doc's office and asked;
they said come in for the fasting BG; I did, and it came back 113.

That being the case, the endo does want me to go on the Altace,
metformin, and Avandia.  I picked up a Freestyle meter and strips
at the doctor's office today and am starting on my medication today.

I'm wondering . . . I have had burning/tingling sensation in my
feet and lower legs.  Will this go away when I get my numbers down?

Thanks!

Karen C.
J.C. Hartmann - 13 Mar 2006 19:02 GMT
> I poked my head in here to ask questions in January, when I was
> diagnosed with cardio-metabolic syndrome.  At that time, my BG was 119,
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Karen C.

Karen,

Looks like your endo is being aggressive in helping you. Officially, it
takes two separate fasting BG readings over 125 to diagnose diabetes.
Right now, it looks like you fall into the Impaired Fasting Glucose/
Pre-diabetes category, and jumping on this will help you down the line.
If you change your eating and exercise habits, you may even avoid a
diabetes diagnosis.

The burning/tingling in your feet is likely early diabetic peripheral
neuropathy, and your case is an interesting reminder that people don't
always have to meet the official criteria for a diagnosis of diabetes to
show signs of a diabetic complication.

The good news is that if you can manage to get your BG under 100 in the
morning, and you change your diet to avoid foods that spike your BG
after meals, you can probably expect the tingling to go away.

Here's a webpage that may explain better:
http://www.diabetic-talk.org/dpn.htm

Jim
Jenny - 13 Mar 2006 19:29 GMT
Karen C. wrote"
>> I'm wondering . . . I have had burning/tingling sensation in my feet
>> and lower legs.  Will this go away when I get my numbers down?

Karen,

The studies of neuropathy found in people not diagnosed with diabetes
show that the only blood sugar measurement that corresponds to
neuropathy occurring is the 2-hour reading after a glucose load.

At values over 140 mg/dl the incidence of neuropathy goes up.  Values on
the fasting bg and the A1c test do not show any such correspondence.

So I'd suggest that you follow the advice given on this page to find out
how high your blood sugars are rising after meals and bring them down
under 140 mg/dl:

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm

The studies that document what I told you above about neuropathy and
blood sugar levels are discussed and linked on my web page with the URL
below my signature.

--Jenny

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
Sugar Under Control
Karen C. - 14 Mar 2006 03:19 GMT
> So I'd suggest that you follow the advice given on this page to find out
> how high your blood sugars are rising after meals and bring them down
> under 140 mg/dl:
>
> http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm

Thanks!  I'll check it out.

 > http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info

> http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
> Sugar Under Control

Thanks a bunch for this info.  I'll give it a read.  I appreciate it.

Karen C.
Karen C. - 14 Mar 2006 03:34 GMT
Probably a stupid question, but . . .  I'm just starting to test
with a meter (picked it up today).

I keep very strange hours, and I rarely sleep more than four or
five hours at a stretch.  What are the minimum hours of fasting
considered as a "fasting glucose"?

Thanks!

Karen C.
Just - 14 Mar 2006 03:56 GMT
> Probably a stupid question, but . . .  I'm just starting to test
> with a meter (picked it up today).
>
> I keep very strange hours, and I rarely sleep more than four or
> five hours at a stretch.  What are the minimum hours of fasting
> considered as a "fasting glucose"?

8 hrs, IIRC. However, you don't have to be sleeping for
8 hours. It's just 8 hours since your last meal.

But that's usually for lab tests. At home, most people just call
the first test of the day as the fbg.
Karen C. - 14 Mar 2006 05:48 GMT
> 8 hrs, IIRC. However, you don't have to be sleeping for
> 8 hours. It's just 8 hours since your last meal.

Thanks!  Again, pardon my ignorance, but what is "IIRC"?

And does that include water?  (I wouldn't have thought so, but
when I did my fasting blood glucose test, they said not even water.)

Thanks!

Karen C.
Just - 14 Mar 2006 05:50 GMT
>> 8 hrs, IIRC. However, you don't have to be sleeping for
>> 8 hours. It's just 8 hours since your last meal.
>
> Thanks!  Again, pardon my ignorance, but what is "IIRC"?

IIRC ==> If I Recall Correctly.

> And does that include water?

Nope - you can surely drink water.

> (I wouldn't have thought so, but
> when I did my fasting blood glucose test, they said not even water.)
Karen C. - 14 Mar 2006 07:18 GMT
> IIRC ==> If I Recall Correctly.

Oh, well, duh!  LOL!

> Nope - you can surely drink water.

Great!  Thanks!

Karen C.
Ma¢k - 14 Mar 2006 19:40 GMT
>>> 8 hrs, IIRC. However, you don't have to be sleeping for
>>> 8 hours. It's just 8 hours since your last meal.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>> (I wouldn't have thought so, but
>> when I did my fasting blood glucose test, they said not even water.)

nope, for "LAB" tests you do not drink water if they do not want you
to.  Water does have a direct effect on BG.  And the lab does not want
the test skewed.  "Home" testing is a personal choice.If you drink
water before the test, generally it won't have any to much effect on
the test if it is done within 15 to 20 minutes after drinking.

If during your sleep you run higher BGs than normal. your body will
most likely try to flush some of it out through your urine, causing
some water loss and increasing the concentration of BG.  You want to
see this correctly reflected in your FBG.  If you rehydrate before the
test the BG reading will tend to be lower, misleading you, if there is
a problem.

Signature

Mâck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
...Theodore Roosevelt

        (o ô)  
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
             ....Bilbo Baggins

Jesus never hated anyone.
           

Dennis R - 15 Mar 2006 02:33 GMT
>>>> 8 hrs, IIRC. However, you don't have to be sleeping for
>>>> 8 hours. It's just 8 hours since your last meal.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> test the BG reading will tend to be lower, misleading you, if there is
> a problem.

Mack is correct, if they specifically say no water for that specific
test, then no water it is, for the very reasons he points out. Further
down the road when you are doing a mixture of other blood tests as well
as FBG, ask them then if water is allowed for those. Dehydration can
adversely affect other tests, such as electrolytes, BUN, creatinine. If
you have difficulty having blood drawn from your veins, hydration for
those other tests can help a lot. Other than FBG, the few other tests
that usually require fasting are cholesterol. Most do not. Just ask.

Dennis (Type 2)
Karen C. - 17 Mar 2006 15:04 GMT
> Mack is correct, if they specifically say no water for that specific
> test, then no water it is, for the very reasons he points out. Further

That makes sense.  I was just concerned about the home testing
and whether I could drink water before testing myself for my
fasting BG in the a.m.

Thanks!

Karen C.
Karen C. - 17 Mar 2006 15:02 GMT
> "Home" testing is a personal choice.If you drink
> water before the test, generally it won't have any to much effect on
> the test if it is done within 15 to 20 minutes after drinking.

This is good to know.  I have been leery of drinking water with
home testing because I was told not to drink water before the
tests at the lab.

> If during your sleep you run higher BGs than normal. your body will
> most likely try to flush some of it out through your urine, causing
> some water loss and increasing the concentration of BG.  You want to
> see this correctly reflected in your FBG.  If you rehydrate before the
> test the BG reading will tend to be lower, misleading you, if there is
> a problem.

Thanks for your feedback.  It helps.

Karen C.
Priscilla H. Ballou - 17 Mar 2006 22:35 GMT
> > "Home" testing is a personal choice.If you drink
> > water before the test, generally it won't have any to much effect on
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> > test the BG reading will tend to be lower, misleading you, if there is
> > a problem.

I haven't followed this whole thread, so I may be repeating what someone
else said, but the women who draw my blood in the lab tell me to drink a
good big glass of water at home before coming in for a fasting draw
because they may have trouble getting it out of my veins if I don't.

Priscilla
Ma¢k - 17 Mar 2006 23:01 GMT
On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 16:35:46 -0500, "Priscilla H. Ballou"
<vze23t8n@verizon.net> Huffed and Puffed the following into the
madness of usenet:

>> > "Home" testing is a personal choice.If you drink
>> > water before the test, generally it won't have any to much effect on
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>Priscilla

separate issue.  but it is a trade off.  if you can't get the sample,
you can't test it.

Signature

Mâck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
...Theodore Roosevelt

        (o ô)  
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
             ....Bilbo Baggins

Jesus never hated anyone.

DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate...
.

           

Bit Twister - 14 Mar 2006 06:03 GMT
> Thanks!  Again, pardon my ignorance, but what is "IIRC"?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off&q=word_to_lookup_here

First hit for iirc gets

Acronym Finder Search: What does iirc stand for?
The Acronym Finder is a searchable database of over 3 million
acronyms, abbreviations and meanings. Covers: common acronyms,
computers, science, technology, ...
http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?String=exact&Acronym=iirc&Find=Find

Which will get you 18 defs.  :)
Karen C. - 14 Mar 2006 07:20 GMT
> First hit for iirc gets . . .
> Which will get you 18 defs.  :)

LOL!  I don't doubt it a bit.  Thanks!

Karen C.
Ozgirl - 13 Mar 2006 21:16 GMT
> The burning/tingling in your feet is likely early diabetic peripheral
> neuropathy, and your case is an interesting reminder that people don't
> always have to meet the official criteria for a diagnosis of diabetes
> to show signs of a diabetic complication.

And many people go for years in IGT range before they reach
those magic diabetes diagnostic numbers. It makes you
seriously wonder why they bother to do trials that show
complications being a risk at certain (low) numbers when the
medical fraternity just run a blind eye until you reach
200+.
Karen C. - 14 Mar 2006 03:09 GMT
> Looks like your endo is being aggressive in helping you.

It seemed that way to me, too, but I really didn't have anything
to compare him to.  I'd been seeing another endo for
hypothyroidism for a couple of years, but I didn't feel I was
getting any relief.  The old endo did send me to a rheumatologist
because my ANA was up, but the rheumatologist just marked the
inflammation in my labs up to osteoarthritis in the feet and
hands.  Now I'm wondering if maybe they were chasing the wrong
rabbit.

> Officially, it takes two separate fasting BG readings over 125 to diagnose diabetes.
> Right now, it looks like you fall into the Impaired Fasting Glucose/
> Pre-diabetes category, and jumping on this will help you down the line.
> If you change your eating and exercise habits, you may even avoid a
> diabetes diagnosis.

That's exactly what I'm hoping.

> The burning/tingling in your feet is likely early diabetic peripheral
> neuropathy, and your case is an interesting reminder that people don't
> always have to meet the official criteria for a diagnosis of diabetes to
> show signs of a diabetic complication.

Yeah, I would have to be the odd man out in that respect.  This
has been going on for awhile, but I just assumed it was from high
blood pressure, as I've had swollen feet, ankles, and hands ever
since I had my DD (15 years ago).  Once I got on medicine for
blood pressure, the swelling has gone down considerably, but I
still have trouble with it.  I figured the BP was the reason I
had the stinging sensation--due to swollen feet.  Now I'm
thinking it's more in line with a symptom of the blood glucose
numbers going up.

> The good news is that if you can manage to get your BG under 100 in the
> morning, and you change your diet to avoid foods that spike your BG
> after meals, you can probably expect the tingling to go away.

This is good to know.  I've been working on the exercise for a
couple of months.  Haven't lost but a few pounds, but the leg
muscles are definitely tighter.  I have a big belly, but it
appear to be trying to get a little tighter too.

> Here's a webpage that may explain better:
> http://www.diabetic-talk.org/dpn.htm

Will check it out.  Thanks a bunch for the feedback and info.  I
appreciate it very much.

Karen C.
oldal4865 - 13 Mar 2006 21:16 GMT
>. . . .(snip). . ..  It was recommended
>that I get a fasting BG.  I contacted the doc's office and asked;
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Karen C.

  Your doc is being very aggressive.   (IMO,  a good thing)  These meds
have demonstrated an ability to prevent   damage to arteries and damage to
kidneys.     There are clinical trials that suggest that they can slow or
partially freeze the Standard Type 2 Diabetes Progression,  i.e.  stop
further deterioration of your blood sugars.

Avandia does have some irritating,  possibly dangerous side effects related
to edema.   Be very alert to changes in your vision and swelling in your
legs.    Pester your doc if you don't like what you see.

The burning/tingling sensation is an indication of peripheral neuropathy.
Your FbG seems a bit low for that kind of damage but you may possibly  just
be a person with inherently low FbG.   You ought to track your
2-hour-after-eating bG very carefully in the near future.    Test strips are
expensive;  the cost may be very irritating;  but at this stage of your
fight you need a good idea of what's going on.

The very best therapy for peripheral neuropathy is a reduction in blood
sugars.    You would like to spend most of the day between 80 and 90 mg/dL,
even though that's really hard to do if you are diabetic..

Regards
 Old Al
Just - 13 Mar 2006 21:19 GMT
>   Your doc is being very aggressive.   (IMO,  a good thing)  These
> meds have demonstrated an ability to prevent   damage to arteries and
> damage to kidneys.     There are clinical trials that suggest that
> they can slow or partially freeze the Standard Type 2 Diabetes
> Progression,  i.e.  stop further deterioration of your blood sugars.

Which medicine are you talking about?
IIRC, there was a lot of publicity about clinical trials being
done for pre-diabetics with Metformin. But the results weren't
very encouraging - I may be wrong here.
Jefferson - 14 Mar 2006 01:30 GMT
>>  Your doc is being very aggressive.   (IMO,  a good thing)  These
>>meds have demonstrated an ability to prevent   damage to arteries and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> done for pre-diabetics with Metformin. But the results weren't
> very encouraging - I may be wrong here.

The Diabetes Prevention Program had a group for metformin as well as a
group for diet and exercise.  Diet and exercise was more effective in
people with IGT than metformin. Both were effective.

Projected Impact of Implementing the Results of the Diabetes
Prevention Program in the U.S. Population
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/25/11/1940

"RESULTS—Using BMI <24 kg/m2 as an initial criterion eliminated 27.2% of
U.S. adults from further testing. Of the remaining group, 41.1% did not
have to be considered for an OGTT because their fasting glucose level
was below or above 96–125 mg/dl. Overall, 10.6% of adults aged 40–74
years without medical history of diabetes met the DPP eligibility
criteria for intervention. Among individuals with BMI 24 kg/m2 and
fasting glucose level 96–125 mg/dl, applying a fasting plasma glucose
cutoff of 105 mg/dl excluded 62.5% of this group and resulted in 56.0%
of those with 2-h glucose level 140–199 mg/dl in this group being
identified, with a specificity of 72.0% and a PPV of 17.1%. Similar
values were obtained for an HbA1c cutoff value of 5.5%.

CONCLUSIONS—Using data on BMI and setting cutoff values for fasting
glucose and HbA1c would greatly reduce the number of individuals who
would need to undergo an OGTT while achieving adequate sensitivity,
specificity, and PPV."

---
"Our results support the hypothesis that type 2 diabetes can be
prevented or delayed in persons at high risk for the disease. The
incidence of diabetes was reduced by 58 percent with the lifestyle
intervention and by 31 percent with metformin, as compared with placebo.
These effects were similar in men and women and in all racial and ethnic
groups. The intensive lifestyle intervention was at least as effective
in older participants as it was in younger participants. The results of
our study extend previous data showing that lifestyle interventions can
reduce the incidence of diabetes7,8 and demonstrate the applicability of
this finding to the ethnically and culturally diverse population of the
United States. The risk reduction associated with the lifestyle
intervention in our study was the same as that in a study conducted in
Finland,8 and was higher than the reductions associated with diet (31
percent), exercise (46 percent), and diet plus exercise (42 percent) in
a study in China.7" Source: Reduction in the Incidence of Type 2
Diabetes with Lifestyle Intervention or Metformin
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/346/6/393

Frank
Karen C. - 14 Mar 2006 03:30 GMT
> . . . "Our results support the hypothesis that type 2 diabetes can be
> prevented or delayed in persons at high risk for the disease. The
> incidence of diabetes was reduced by 58 percent with the lifestyle
> intervention and by 31 percent with metformin, as compared with placebo. . . .

Thanks for taking the time to post this information.  It's good
to know that I might be able to head it off at the pass if I go
at it aggressively.  Thanks a bunch!

Karen C.
Ma¢k - 14 Mar 2006 20:15 GMT
On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 21:30:29 -0500, "Karen C."
<karenscribes@yahoo.com> Huffed and Puffed the following into the
madness of usenet:

>> . . . "Our results support the hypothesis that type 2 diabetes can be
>> prevented or delayed in persons at high risk for the disease. The
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Karen C.

Take a step back and look at that from another angle.  What they
really found was that by getting the individual under "control" as
early as possible they ended up with a well managed diabetic.  And
simply skipped giving him/her an actual diagnosis of diabetes.

Take them of the diabetic meds and diet and they will have an out of
control diabetic.

Not knocking the results, just their misinterpretation of the results.

Signature

Mâck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
...Theodore Roosevelt

        (o ô)  
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
             ....Bilbo Baggins

Jesus never hated anyone.
           

Jenny - 14 Mar 2006 22:04 GMT
> On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 21:30:29 -0500, "Karen C."
> <karenscribes@yahoo.com> Huffed and Puffed the following into the
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Not knocking the results, just their misinterpretation of the results.

Mack,

Not quite true. There was a later publication that looked at what
happened when they stopped the metformin in this group (or perhaps a sub
group, it's been a while since I read it.)

A certain percentage of the group did convert to being fully diabetic,
but many didn't which left open the question of whether the use of the
metformin had prevented the deterioration into diabetes or just masked it.

One big problem with the study was that the "diet" they were using was
our friend the Low Fat/High Carb diet, so both groups were still
stressing the living daylights out of their beat up old beta cells.

It would be interesting to see what Metformin PLUS diet--diet being
defined along the lines of Jennifer's advice--would do.

--Jenny

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
Sugar Under Control
Susan - 14 Mar 2006 22:10 GMT
> Not quite true. There was a later publication that looked at what
> happened when they stopped the metformin in this group (or perhaps a sub
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> It would be interesting to see what Metformin PLUS diet--diet being
> defined along the lines of Jennifer's advice--would do.

Years ago, when I was first discovering IR and PCOS, I found a lot of
scientific studies demonstrating that metformin reverses IR caused by
steroids, so reversal of the mechanism is possible with metformin.

But I agree that a more appropriate diet would bode much better for
future results.

Susan
Karen C. - 17 Mar 2006 15:33 GMT
 > Take a step back and look at that from another angle.  What they
> really found was that by getting the individual under "control" as
> early as possible they ended up with a well managed diabetic.  And
> simply skipped giving him/her an actual diagnosis of diabetes.
>
> Take them of the diabetic meds and diet and they will have an out of
> control diabetic.

Yes, I see what you're saying.  Either way, getting the patient
to understand the urgency for control, regardless of what they
call it, is a good thing, IMO.

My dad had a few strokes before finally dying after about six
years after the first one.  I'm convinced that he had the first
one because he didn't realize how important his medication was
and that he had gone off of his "water pills."  The doc didn't
call them "blood pressure medication"--just "water pills."  Daddy
was a "good old country boy" who only went to the 8th grade and
really had no idea how important they were to his health.

I think it's better to paint the picture the way it really is.
I'd rather know the facts than to look at the world through
rose-colored glasses.

Karen C.
Karen C. - 14 Mar 2006 03:26 GMT
> Which medicine are you talking about?

Avandia, metformin, and Altace.

> IIRC, there was a lot of publicity about clinical trials being
> done for pre-diabetics with Metformin. But the results weren't
> very encouraging - I may be wrong here.

I do hope you're wrong.  Hopefully, the combination of the above
will be what I need, in conjunction with diet and exercise.

Karen C.
Karen C. - 14 Mar 2006 03:25 GMT
>    Your doc is being very aggressive.   (IMO,  a good thing)  

That's what I'm thinking.  I wish I'd switched doctors a lot sooner.

> These meds have demonstrated an ability to prevent   damage to arteries and damage to
> kidneys.  

That was the reason the nurse gave when she called and said I was
to start taking the meds.  Said my labs weren't showing kidney
damage--yet; but she said he wanted me on the meds to make sure
it didn't get that far.

> Avandia does have some irritating,  possibly dangerous side effects related
> to edema.   Be very alert to changes in your vision and swelling in your
> legs.    Pester your doc if you don't like what you see.

Will do.  Only took the meds a few hours ago; already having a
wonderful bout of diarrhea.  Hopefully, that will subside.

> The burning/tingling sensation is an indication of peripheral neuropathy.
> Your FbG seems a bit low for that kind of damage but you may possibly  just
> be a person with inherently low FbG. >

Figures.  I'd have to be one of the odd ones, for sure.

> You ought to track your 2-hour-after-eating bG very carefully in the near future.  

Will do.

> Test strips are expensive;  the cost may be very irritating;  but at this stage of your
> fight you need a good idea of what's going on.

I know you're right about that.  And I'm sure the expenses will
be even more so if I don't nip this thing in the bud while I have
the chance.

> The very best therapy for peripheral neuropathy is a reduction in blood
> sugars.    You would like to spend most of the day between 80 and 90 mg/dL,
> even though that's really hard to do if you are diabetic..

Thanks!  I'm going to make sure I do a daily food and exercise
diary, along with the BG readings.  I appreciate your help very much.

Karen C.
Nicky - 13 Mar 2006 22:08 GMT
> I'm wondering . . . I have had burning/tingling sensation in my feet and
> lower legs.  Will this go away when I get my numbers down?

If it is peripheral neuropathy - and it's at the same stage mine was - yes.
But it might get worse before it gets better. Some people take, I think,
Evening Primrose Oil for it - hopefully someone will amplify that into
dosages : )

Nicky.

Signature

A1c 10.5/5.4/<6  T2 DX 05/2004
1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
95/74/72Kg

Karen C. - 14 Mar 2006 03:27 GMT
> If it is peripheral neuropathy - and it's at the same stage mine was - yes.
> But it might get worse before it gets better. Some people take, I think,
> Evening Primrose Oil for it - hopefully someone will amplify that into
> dosages : )

This is good to know.  I was afraid the neuropathy was already
irreversible at this stage.  Thanks!

Karen C.
Ma¢k - 14 Mar 2006 20:12 GMT
On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 21:27:39 -0500, "Karen C."
<karenscribes@yahoo.com> Huffed and Puffed the following into the
madness of usenet:

>> If it is peripheral neuropathy - and it's at the same stage mine was - yes.
>> But it might get worse before it gets better. Some people take, I think,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Karen C.

two effective and vary inexpensive supplements that actually help many
not all of us with this problem are Evening Prim Rose Oil and Alpha
Lipoic Acid = EPO / ALA.  They can be taken together or individually.
Generally the effect dose of EPO is 2000 mg, split into 2 doses 1000
in the morning and 1000 in the evening.  I forget the effective
recommended dose for ALA.

I haven't heard of any side effects from ALA, but if there are one of
those who use it will speak up.

EPO sometimes causes itching in some people.  Rare from what I
understand.  Stop taking it and the itching goes away in a day or so.
I've never had the problem.

I've tried several prescriptions meds for this and most had very
limited and short term positive effects.  Some had some very peculiar
side effects.

Right now I take EPO and Topamax.  Topamax is a prescription med, an
anti seizure med, but it can be used for this problem as well.
Combined they work great. For me.

Good BG control in the early stages of neuropathy can stop it and in
many cases reverse it all together.  Always start there.  

You have to keep in mind that you are dealing with dying nerves.  So
in the beginning as they heal after the BG is brought down they will
experience more pain for a while.  This will subside and normal
sensation will start to return.  This short term discomfort is well
worth going through compared to the complications that both
uncontrolled BG and neuropathy lead to.

Poor BG or no BG control and it won't matter what you take, over the
counter or prescription, the damage will only progress and get worse.

Be VERY careful about supplements as most are touted as having
positive effects for diseases like diabetes when in fact they have no
positive effect what so ever.  Scams are the most prevalent gift of
the supplement industry, especially in the USA where it is highly
unregulated.

If you want to try supplements, look for them at your local pharmacy
and ASK THE PHARMACIST every time if this will have any side effects
or drug interactions with any other supplements or prescribed meds you
are taking.  The pharmacist can look it up and tell you correctly what
the supplement maker may not even know about or may be lying about and
what your Doctor may have simply over looked.

Be extremely careful about supplements that originate from China.
Several have been found to contain prescription oral diabetic meds.
But they were not listed or not listed clearly and then the
advertising claimed some ancient Chinese secret in the blend that had
the BG lowering effect.  Taking unknown amounts of unknown types of
oral anti diabetic meds can be extrememly dangerous, especially when
combined with other diabetic meds and or insulin.

Signature

Mâck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
...Theodore Roosevelt

        (o ô)  
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
             ....Bilbo Baggins

Jesus never hated anyone.
           

Karen C. - 17 Mar 2006 15:26 GMT
 > two effective and vary inexpensive supplements that actually
help many
> not all of us with this problem are Evening Prim Rose Oil and Alpha
> Lipoic Acid = EPO / ALA.  They can be taken together or individually...

Thanks!  I'll look into this.

> Good BG control in the early stages of neuropathy can stop it and in
> many cases reverse it all together.  Always start there.  

Will do.

> You have to keep in mind that you are dealing with dying nerves.  So
> in the beginning as they heal after the BG is brought down they will
> experience more pain for a while.  This will subside and normal
> sensation will start to return.  This short term discomfort is well
> worth going through compared to the complications that both
> uncontrolled BG and neuropathy lead to.

I'm working hard on this end.  I'm kicking myself for not
realizing this could have been a possibility before now.  I've
been dealing with edema in the feet and hands for 15 years, now,
and I just assumed that the burning/tingling sensation was
because of that, even after going on blood pressure medication
about five years ago.  The past couple of years, though, there
have been times when the feeling was a bit different.  I suspect,
now, that it was the beginnings of neuropathy.  Duh.

> Poor BG or no BG control and it won't matter what you take, over the
> counter or prescription, the damage will only progress and get worse.

I believe you.  I'm already feeling a bit better, but I'm sure
that's because I'm not snacking at night and have been brisk
walking about 30 to 40 minutes per day for the past couple of
months.  Don't seem to be losing weight, but the legs haven't
been this firm in years.  I look forward to the day when I notice
the belly is beginning to get smaller.

> Be VERY careful about supplements as most are touted as having
> positive effects for diseases like diabetes when in fact they have no
> positive effect what so ever.  Scams are the most prevalent gift of
> the supplement industry, especially in the USA where it is highly
> unregulated.

Not to worry about that.  I'm already having to take so much
medicine that I'm leery about adding anything to my system
without a great deal of caution and research.

Thanks for the tips.  I appreciate your help.

Karen C.
bj - 17 Mar 2006 18:46 GMT
> I believe you.  I'm already feeling a bit better, but I'm sure that's
> because I'm not snacking at night and have been brisk walking about 30 to
> 40 minutes per day for the past couple of months.  Don't seem to be losing
> weight, but the legs haven't been this firm in years.  I look forward to
> the day when I notice the belly is beginning to get smaller.

See thread above on the downside of weight-loss -- losing the belly on which
to perch your dinner plate.
:-)

Have you tried an old pair of jeans? Even without weight *loss* you may be
losing *volume* (inches). And the regular walking has got to be good for
your general systems. I got carried away with my walking routine & started
running -- now I do quite a few road races each year, up to 10 miles a
couple of times -- I did a 1/2marathon, but it takes me forever, not sure
I'll do it again but.....)
Best wishes.
bj
Karen C. - 18 Mar 2006 02:12 GMT
> See thread above on the downside of weight-loss -- losing the belly on which
> to perch your dinner plate.   :-)

Will do.

< Have you tried an old pair of jeans?

LOL!  I haven't had a pair of jeans since before DD was born (15
years ago--which is when the trouble with hypertension and
hypothyroidism got started, although not treated until just a few
years ago).

> Even without weight *loss* you may be losing *volume* (inches).

It does appear that I probably am losing some inches, although
I've only lost about three pounds in the past two months.

> And the regular walking has got to be good for
> your general systems.

I knoew you're right about that.  I do have more energy than I
did a couple of months ago.  (But that's not saying a whole lot,
since I barely had the energy to get up out of my chair and go to
the bathroom.)  I don't know whether to attribute that to the
bump up in my Synthroid or not, but I'm sure the exercise has
something to do with it too.

> I got carried away with my walking routine & started
> running -- now I do quite a few road races each year, up to 10 miles a
> couple of times -- I did a 1/2marathon, but it takes me forever, not sure
> I'll do it again but.....)

Can't imagine running, much less a marathon.  I'm having trouble
getting faster than an 18-minute mile!

Karen C.
Nicky - 18 Mar 2006 12:17 GMT
> Can't imagine running, much less a marathon.  I'm having trouble getting
> faster than an 18-minute mile!

Work at your own rate. Keep an exercise diary - in a few months you might
look back and be amazed : )

Nicky.

Signature

A1c 10.5/5.4/<6  T2 DX 05/2004
1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
95/74/72Kg

Karen C. - 21 Mar 2006 03:39 GMT
> Work at your own rate. Keep an exercise diary - in a few months you might
> look back and be amazed : ) >

Got no choice but to work at my own rate.  However, I'm certain I
won't be doing any marathons--even in a couple of years!

Karen C.
bj - 18 Mar 2006 21:33 GMT
> < Have you tried an old pair of jeans?
>
> LOL!  I haven't had a pair of jeans since before DD was born (15 years
> ago--).
> ....

Well, you must have something around that you can keep as a "reference
garment"! Or maybe even something that you kept around for "maybe someday"
it would fit.

> Can't imagine running, much less a marathon.  I'm having trouble getting
> faster than an 18-minute mile!

It was only a *half* marathon.
:)
bj
Alan S - 19 Mar 2006 01:55 GMT
>> < Have you tried an old pair of jeans?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>:)
>bj

"Only" 13 miles?

I suspect that you and I have very different definitions of
"only":-)

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 2x500mg
Signature

Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

bj - 20 Mar 2006 15:33 GMT
>>> Can't imagine running, much less a marathon.  I'm having trouble getting
>>> faster than an 18-minute mile!
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I suspect that you and I have very different definitions of "only":-)

Compared to a full marathon, 13mi is "only".
:)
bj
Karen C. - 21 Mar 2006 03:45 GMT
> Well, you must have something around that you can keep as a "reference
> garment"! Or maybe even something that you kept around for "maybe someday"
> it would fit.

Only a few things for "maybe someday it would fit," but I'd have
to lose a heck of a lot before I could even think about trying
them on!  Everything I've worn since DD was born (15 years ago)
has elastic in the waist and stretches from here to eternity!

I haven't seen the needle on the scales move lately.  I gained
three pounds the first week, then lost all three over the next
two.  It seems to have stayed in the same place over the last
1-1/2 months, though.

 > It was only a *half* marathon.

ONLY, you say?  ROFL!

Karen C.
bj - 21 Mar 2006 16:14 GMT
>  > It was only a *half* marathon.
>
> ONLY, you say?  ROFL!

So would I have been even 5 years ago.
It's amazing how much progress you can make if you just keep on keeping on.

I don't plan to make a *habit* of 1/2M's, I'm not even sure I want to do one
again -- but I'm not ruling it out, and if the signs, portents, my legs &
health, the weather, & a convenient event all happen to coincide (as they
did that one time but hadn't on a previous hoped-for occasion)......
bj
Karen C. - 21 Mar 2006 23:47 GMT
> So would I have been even 5 years ago.
> It's amazing how much progress you can make if you just keep on keeping on.

I'm sure you're right about that.  I have no intention of doing
anything but keeping on, but running just isn't in my future.  I
have several relatives who have had to have knee replacement
surgeries in the past few years, so I'm not thinking I want to
press my luck with running.  I have arthritis in my feet and
hands already.  Speed walking is about all I'll be willing to do
to my joints.  But I'll surely try to walk fast as I can <g>.

Karen C.
bj - 22 Mar 2006 03:32 GMT
bj wrote:
> It's amazing how much progress you can make if you
> just keep on keeping on.

> I'm sure you're right about that.  I have no intention of doing anything
> but keeping on, but running just isn't in my future.  I have several
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> be willing to do to my joints.  But I'll surely try to walk fast as I can
> <g>.

I just barely came in ahead of a racewalker (male, & slightly older than I
am) in a recent club 4-miler. And that's only because I put on a finishing
kick.

I don't do as much as I might like to -- my body can't take the general
beating, I get too tired (later, if not "during"), and have to really rest
up if I overdo it or even just do modest runs too many days per week.

I started racing as a variation on "running around my own neighborhood".
Then I got carried away. But it is fun. And nobody cares than I'm rather a
pokey-paced runner -- I have been last a time or two in small races, and
often very near the end. But I've also gotten awards in my age group, which
is fun, when the "faster competition" (we have some speedy older ladies in
my area) isn't there -- it pays to show up! (there aren't a lot of 60+
ladies out there running -- yet). It's also been kinda fun to "play in the
street", some of them "big streets".
bj
Karen C. - 22 Mar 2006 04:06 GMT
> I started racing as a variation on "running around my own neighborhood".
> Then I got carried away. But it is fun. And nobody cares than I'm rather a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> ladies out there running -- yet). It's also been kinda fun to "play in the
> street", some of them "big streets".

Sounds as if you do enjoy it.  Pokey-paced running is still
running in my book!  How long have you been at it?

Karen C.
bj - 23 Mar 2006 03:28 GMT
> Sounds as if you do enjoy it.  Pokey-paced running is still running in my
> book!  How long have you been at it?
>
> Karen C.

Just a few years. I started racing 3 years ago; I do 30-40 events/year.
Lotsa fun. And there are companies that make quilts out of T-shirts. (club
races don't have shirts, but many/most other races do, & they tend to pile
up....)
bj
Karen C. - 23 Mar 2006 04:21 GMT
> Just a few years. I started racing 3 years ago; I do 30-40 events/year.
> Lotsa fun.

I don't think I'll ever be able to consider exercise fun  8-(
Would that it were so!

> And there are companies that make quilts out of T-shirts. (club
> races don't have shirts, but many/most other races do, & they tend to pile
> up....)

Well, at least you always have something to wear <g>.

Karen C.
shoppa@trailing-edge.com - 20 Mar 2006 16:28 GMT
> [bG numbers of 125 or so]
> I'm wondering . . . I have had burning/tingling sensation in my
> feet and lower legs.  Will this go away when I get my numbers down?

125 by itself is not enough to say. If you have spikes that go a lot
higher, and it's being going on for years, then maybe it is a
complication of diabetes. I know that a lot of folks here write that
125 is a "bad" number but in the grand scheme (me speaking with 25
years of experience as a Type 1), I don't think so, instead I'd say
that it's just a single number.

But more generally it might help see an orthopedist (pinched nerve?) or
have some circulatory tests done. What did your doctor say about the
burning/tingling sensation?

The one time I suspected some diabetic-complication nerve damage, it
turned out that my watch band was too tight. Diagnosing complicated
stuff over Usenet isn't ideal! Orthopedist got it in like 20 seconds.

Tim.
Karen C. - 21 Mar 2006 03:53 GMT
>> [bG numbers of 125 or so]
>> I'm wondering . . . I have had burning/tingling sensation in my
>> feet and lower legs.  Will this go away when I get my numbers down?
>
> 125 by itself is not enough to say. If you have spikes that go a lot

I'm not sure where the mention of "125 or so" came from, but that
part wasn't my quote.

> But more generally it might help see an orthopedist (pinched nerve?) or
> have some circulatory tests done. What did your doctor say about the
> burning/tingling sensation?

> The one time I suspected some diabetic-complication nerve damage, it
> turned out that my watch band was too tight. Diagnosing complicated
> stuff over Usenet isn't ideal! Orthopedist got it in like 20 seconds.

We're pretty certain this isn't a pinched nerve.  Endo thinks
it's due to cardio-metabolic syndrome.  One thing I've noticed
over the past week is that the tingling/burning sensation has
eased up considerably over that time.  I don't know whether
that's directly related to the exercise or whether it's related
to the medications (Altace, metformin, and Avandia) I started a
week ago (which I doubt, as I don't think anything but the Altace
has had a chance to kick in yet).  I've noticed I have had a bit
less swelling in the feet and hands since a week ago too.

Karen C.
Alexander Arnakis - 12 Mar 2006 06:59 GMT
>analogs require Rx's.  why?  don't know.

Probably simply because they were new, with a different action profile
than the insulins we were used to before. The medical and
pharmaceutical professions wanted to be sure that patients were
educated in their use, and the requirement of a prescription was a
good way of insuring this. There were probably also legal liability
issues.
Hi_Therre - 12 Mar 2006 16:33 GMT
>I use both Lantus and Novolog insulin. They both require a prescription
>while a lot of other types of insulin do not.
>
>Does anyone know why?

Canada does not require a prescription.  A couple months ago I called
several Canadian online pharmacies about novolog and my being a US
citizen.  All they need is a credit card number and a shipping
address.
Uncle Enrico - 13 Mar 2006 16:44 GMT
Veeeerrrrry  interesting, Hi T here.  How were the prices?

>>I use both Lantus and Novolog insulin. They both require a prescription
>>while a lot of other types of insulin do not.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> citizen.  All they need is a credit card number and a shipping
> address.
Hi_Therre - 13 Mar 2006 23:06 GMT
>Veeeerrrrry  interesting, Hi T here.  How were the prices?
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> citizen.  All they need is a credit card number and a shipping
>> address.

http://www.canpharm.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.display/pn/HUMALOG.Vials/pr
oduct_id/46.htm&ovchn=GGL&ovcpn=canpharm_otc_google&ovcrn=humalog_cheap&ovtac=PP
C


How does $30 + $10 s/h = $40 for humalog suit you?  Walmart charges
$84.
Jenny - 14 Mar 2006 01:38 GMT
>> Veeeerrrrry  interesting, Hi T here.  How were the prices?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> How does $30 + $10 s/h = $40 for humalog suit you?  Walmart charges
> $84.

Did you ever actually receive any Novalog from this outfit? They don't
give any contact information except for U.S. 800 numbers and a post
office box. They say it may take 8 days to get the insulin and that it
is packed with one "ice pack".

They also state elsewhere that your non-returnable order may be a
generic that isn't like what you are used to. I wonder if their $30
insulin without a prescription turns out to be R which is available
without a prescription here and is about $19 a vial at Wal-mart.

--Jenny

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
Sugar Under Control
Vicki Beausoleil - 14 Mar 2006 03:05 GMT
>>> Veeeerrrrry  interesting, Hi T here.  How were the prices?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
> Sugar Under Control

The law in Canada states that a generic can only be substituted when the
active ingredients are the same. There's no generic Humalog, and they
couldn't replace it with Regular, because it's not exactly the same.
Even NovoRapid isn't the same.

Generics are almost always dispensed in place of brand name drugs,
unless the physican states otherwise. It's because the generic drugs are
manufactured here in Canada and the brand names aren't.
As far as I know, there's no generic insulin of any kind being
manufactured in Canada.

Vicki
Jenny - 14 Mar 2006 15:53 GMT
> Generics are almost always dispensed in place of brand name drugs,
> unless the physican states otherwise. It's because the generic drugs are
> manufactured here in Canada and the brand names aren't.
> As far as I know, there's no generic insulin of any kind being
> manufactured in Canada.

Vicki,

Is Humalog available without a prescription in Canada? And would it be
available for as low a price as the online pharmacy suggested?

Signature

--Jenny

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
Sugar Under Control

Vicki Beausoleil - 14 Mar 2006 19:05 GMT
>> Generics are almost always dispensed in place of brand name drugs,
>> unless the physican states otherwise. It's because the generic drugs
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Is Humalog available without a prescription in Canada? And would it be
> available for as low a price as the online pharmacy suggested?

Yup and yup.

I used to buy Humalog without a scrip back when I was using Regular &
theinsulinfromhell. Don't tell my endo ;-)

I use NovoRapid in my pump at $32CDN a bottle. That works out to about
$27.50USD at today's exchange. I believe Humalog is a dollar or two cheaper.

Small word of warning: If you're not going to be using much, get the
NovoRapid instead of the Humalog. It seems to be a bit more stable and
might last longer. Keep fridged at all times. I've had Humalog go off
after about 4 months open.

canadameds.com is the big Canadian drug shipper, if you're worried about
 funny stuff. They're based in Winnipeg and are by far the oldest and
biggest.

HTH

Vicki
Jenny - 14 Mar 2006 22:00 GMT
>>> Generics are almost always dispensed in place of brand name drugs,
>>> unless the physican states otherwise. It's because the generic drugs
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> might last longer. Keep fridged at all times. I've had Humalog go off
> after about 4 months open.

Very interesting. Thanks!!!!

--Jenny

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
Sugar Under Control
David - 14 Mar 2006 22:14 GMT
>  I've had Humalog go off
> after about 4 months open.

> Vicki
That's to be expected!

Dave
TigerLily - 14 Mar 2006 03:24 GMT
there is no generic Humalog to date

so you will be getting Humalog

Regular is an entirely different insulin

kate
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> >> Veeeerrrrry  interesting, Hi T here.  How were the prices?
> >>
> >> "Hi_Therre" <Bruce35@Rosebud.com> wrote in message

news:rjf812tp3v8utj43ke9t5sjhbmb9knuf1l@4ax.com...

> >>>> I use both Lantus and Novolog insulin. They both require a prescription
> >>>> while a lot of other types of insulin do not.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >>> citizen.  All they need is a credit card number and a shipping
> >>> address.

http://www.canpharm.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.display/pn/HUMALOG.Vials/pr
oduct_id/46.htm&ovchn=GGL&ovcpn=canpharm_otc_google&ovcrn=humalog_cheap&ovtac=PP
C


> > How does $30 + $10 s/h = $40 for humalog suit you?  Walmart charges
> > $84.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
> Sugar Under Control
Jenny - 14 Mar 2006 15:52 GMT
> there is no generic Humalog to date
>
> so you will be getting Humalog
>
> Regular is an entirely different insulin

You know that and I know that, but does the organization that gives you
no real information about itself and sells only on the web, and which
tells you on their web site that whatever they send you, you're stuck
with it and it might be a generic, know that?

The price and lack of need for prescription don't sound right to me at
all for Humalog. That's why I wondered if anyone had actually gotten it
from these guys to see if it was for real.

--Jenny

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
Sugar Under Control
Hi_Therre - 14 Mar 2006 12:42 GMT
>>> Veeeerrrrry  interesting, Hi T here.  How were the prices?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>office box. They say it may take 8 days to get the insulin and that it
>is packed with one "ice pack".

No I didn't order anything from them yet.  The new GP gave me a vial
of humalog.  

>They also state elsewhere that your non-returnable order may be a
>generic that isn't like what you are used to. I wonder if their $30
>insulin without a prescription turns out to be R which is available
>without a prescription here and is about $19 a vial at Wal-mart.

That is called fraud.  Then don't order from them.  You can always do
a credit card chargeback if necessary.
Hans-Jürgen Tilsner - 14 Mar 2006 10:31 GMT
>I use both Lantus and Novolog insulin. They both require a prescription
>while a lot of other types of insulin do not.
>
>Does anyone know why?

I think it's all sort of political. Here in Germany you don't get any
insulin without a prescriptions.

Hans, T2 since 1990, Germany
Apidra & Lantus
Ma¢k - 14 Mar 2006 20:53 GMT
>>I use both Lantus and Novolog insulin. They both require a prescription
>>while a lot of other types of insulin do not.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Hans, T2 since 1990, Germany
>Apidra & Lantus

who pays for it?

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Type 1 since 1975
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