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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / March 2006

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A1C

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Bob - 08 Mar 2006 15:11 GMT
My A1c test was 5.1.  what would that make my average reading?   The doctor
said my test for anemic was 7 and should be 12.  More tests!!!   I wonder if
losing 60 pounds in the last year and being diabetic also for a year cause
this.  My fasting readings are always around 183.  All cholesterol readings
were great.

Bob
Jenny - 08 Mar 2006 15:29 GMT
> My A1c test was 5.1.  what would that make my average reading?   The doctor
> said my test for anemic was 7 and should be 12.  More tests!!!   I wonder if
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Bob

Bob,

Unfortunately, your anemia is probably bad enough that it makes the A1c
result (which is a test of red blood cells) invalid.

from a site posted by the University of Missouri:

Factors that interfere with GHB (HbA1c) Test Results
 http://www.missouri.edu/~diabetes/ngsp/factors.htm

"Shortened Erythrocyte Survival: Any condition that shortens erythrocyte
survival or decreases mean erythrocyte age (e.g., recovery from acute
blood loss, hemolytic anemia) will falsely lower GHB test results
regardless of the assay method used (25).  GHB results from patients
with HbSS, HbCC, and HbSC must be interpreted with caution given the
pathological processes, including *******anemia******** [emphasis mine],
increased red cell turnover, transfusion requirements, that adversely
impact GHB as a marker of long-term glycemic control.  Alternative forms
of testing such as glycated serum protein (fructosamine) should be
considered for these patients."

Using the DCCT-derived formula for relating a1c to average blood sugar,
an a1c of 5.1% would translate into an average glucose of 104 mg/dl.

Your fasting blood sugar is probably your lowest blood sugar of the day
and using the same formula it would map down to at least an A1c of 7.3%.

Your doctor sounds like he's doing his job and following up to find out
why you have a low red blood cell count. Make sure you keep seeing him
until this problem is dealt with!

--Jenny

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
Sugar Under Control
Loretta Eisenberg - 08 Mar 2006 15:49 GMT
5.1=104

what I dont understand is with the 183 fbg all the time is how you
attained a 5.1,  Is that just your fbg when you get up in the morning.

Loretta

--
In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.
Jenny - 08 Mar 2006 17:14 GMT
> 5.1=104
>
> what I dont understand is with the 183 fbg all the time is how you
> attained a 5.1,  Is that just your fbg when you get up in the morning.

Loretta,

He has severe anemia. This means he doesn't have a normal number of red
blood cells. The A1c test measures something in red blood cells so if
there aren't enough of them, the number drops.

In short, his A1c is not accurate.

--Jenny

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
Sugar Under Control
Just - 08 Mar 2006 17:23 GMT
>> 5.1=104
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> He has severe anemia. This means he doesn't have a normal number of
> red blood cells.

> The A1c test measures something in red blood cells
> so if there aren't enough of them, the number drops.

Are you guessing or is there a cite for this?

> In short, his A1c is not accurate.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
> Sugar Under Control
Jenny - 08 Mar 2006 18:01 GMT
>>> 5.1=104
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Are you guessing or is there a cite for this?

I posted the cite in an earlier message.

Here it is again:

Factors that interfere with GHB results
www.missouri.edu/~diabetes/ngsp/factors.htm

Signature

--Jenny

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
Sugar Under Control

Just - 08 Mar 2006 18:09 GMT
>>>> 5.1=104
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Factors that interfere with GHB results
> www.missouri.edu/~diabetes/ngsp/factors.htm

The site says
"Iron-deficiency anemia is reported to increase test results"

That's the opposite of what you are saying.
Alan S - 08 Mar 2006 23:32 GMT
<snip>
>>>> The A1c test measures something in red blood cells
>>>> so if there aren't enough of them, the number drops.
>>>
>>> Are you guessing or is there a cite for this?

>> I posted the cite in an earlier message.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>That's the opposite of what you are saying.

Hi Just

I don't recall Bob mentioning the form of his anemia. All he
said was "The doctor said my test for anemic was 7 and
should be 12." I'm no expert on anemia - does that indicate
that his is related to iron-deficiency?

The site Jenny referenced said this:

"Shortened Erythrocyte Survival: Any condition that shortens
erythrocyte survival or decreases mean erythrocyte age
(e.g., recovery from acute blood loss, hemolytic anemia)
will falsely lower GHB test results regardless of the assay
method used (25)."

And also this:

"Iron-deficiency anemia is reported to increase test results
(28)."

So the anemia type is very relevant. In either case - the
A1c result is unreliable as an indicator of his diabetes
control.

Bob had a typo which complicated the issue - there is a vast
difference in control between average FBGs of 183 and 83.

I wasn't aware of the reference, and found it very
interesting. Do you have some further references to increase
our knowledge in this aspect of A1c accuracy?

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 2x500mg
Signature

Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Jenny - 09 Mar 2006 00:12 GMT
> Bob had a typo which complicated the issue - there is a vast
> difference in control between average FBGs of 183 and 83.
>
> I wasn't aware of the reference, and found it very
> interesting. Do you have some further references to increase
> our knowledge in this aspect of A1c accuracy?

I just pulled that one out of Google, but the subject is discussed in
some detail in Gretchen Becker's "The First Year: Type 2 Diabetes" book.

--Jenny

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes  Diabetes Info

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
Sugar Under Control
guy - 09 Mar 2006 01:41 GMT
>>> 5.1=104
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>> http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
>> Sugar Under Control

WE must remember that the A1C is a doctor's tool.   The
test strips are the patient's tool.   I only have to look at my
manual log to see how I am doing.   We will see
so any worthless items on the market to make a
buck off of our misfortune.

The thing a patient should do is test enough to get a
accurate picture that they are doing well and
what they are doing is the proper thing.

Ignorance  and  people trying to exploit us are two
of our worst enemies.  
                                           Guy
Bob - 08 Mar 2006 17:39 GMT
Sorry,, Typo-----83fbg

> 5.1=104
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
> terrorism.
Just - 08 Mar 2006 17:45 GMT
> Sorry,, Typo-----83fbg

Good. Otherwise having such high sugar levels with
a low HbA1c would have made your doctor diagnose
it as hemochromatosis - i.e. iron overload.

>> 5.1=104
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
>> terrorism.
Ozgirl - 09 Mar 2006 02:39 GMT
>> Sorry,, Typo-----83fbg
>
> Good. Otherwise having such high sugar levels with
> a low HbA1c would have made your doctor diagnose
> it as hemochromatosis - i.e. iron overload.

Not without a battery of tests.
Julie Bove - 08 Mar 2006 23:00 GMT
> 5.1=104
>
> what I dont understand is with the 183 fbg all the time is how you
> attained a 5.1,  Is that just your fbg when you get up in the morning.

Anemia can render the A1c invalid.

Signature

See my webpage:
http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm

Michelle - 08 Mar 2006 20:26 GMT
Bob,

I'm assuming the anemia test was in fact a test for hemoglobin.  The
fact that you are functioning with a hemoglobin of 7 shows that the
change from a normal value (12) to the low one (7) occurred slowly over
time.  If a person changes suddenly from the normal value of 12 to 7,
he/she would probably go into shock.

Either you are slowly losing blood or your body isn't making as much as
it should.  The tests will reveal what's going on.  There are many
possible causes.  But here's a simple one that's often overlooked:  Do
you take aspirin on a daily basis?  This can cause slow blood loss
through the GI tract.

Michelle
Bob - 08 Mar 2006 20:43 GMT
Yes, it was a Hemoglobin test and yes I do take a aspirin a day.  I eat very
few vegetables and he mentions this as one possible, but also the blood
loss.  He scheduled me for a colonoscopy also plus a lot more blood work,
b-12, folic and many more.

Thanks
Bob

> Bob,
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Michelle
Ozgirl - 09 Mar 2006 02:40 GMT
> Yes, it was a Hemoglobin test and yes I do take a aspirin a day.  I
> eat very few vegetables and he mentions this as one
possible, but
> also the blood loss.  He scheduled me for a colonoscopy
also plus a
> lot more blood work, b-12, folic and many more.

What blood loss, did I miss something? I have very low iron
stores most of the time because of heavy bleeding of a
womanly kind. It is good you are having further tests.
guy - 09 Mar 2006 02:03 GMT
>Bob,
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>Michelle

I am anemic.   The root cause is the complications of
diabetes.  I spend a lot of money on prescriptions
to counter it.

Epgon is a very expensive drug.

A good doc will determine the cause of the problem.

A good doc uses the A!C test.so I leave that area to
the doc.

I just try to find the money for the prescriptions.
                                    Guy      
 
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