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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / March 2006

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Red meat may contribute toRisk for Noncardia Gastric Cancer

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Quentin Grady - 02 Mar 2006 06:17 GMT
G'day G'day Folks,

Medscape is a valuable source of information.  The following may be
welcomed by some and not others.  Whatever.  The reason we share
information with one another to attempt to minimise the risks.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/524479?sssdmh=dm1.183626&src=nldne

Medscape requires a one time registration.
It's free and they are exceedingly well behaved.

Does anyone know if the risks for these cancers are greater for
diabetics?

It seems obvious that dealing to H.Pylori would be a good strategy if
this were our only concern. H. Pylori has some downside eg ulcers and
now contributing to cancer risk.  Apparently there is some upside but
I'm off to a concert and forgotten the details.

Best wishes,

Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Jefferson - 02 Mar 2006 20:27 GMT
Hi Quentin:

> G'day G'day Folks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Does anyone know if the risks for these cancers are greater for
> diabetics?

I could only speculate by deduction. I would suspect that it would
depend on how much a person's immune system was compromised. Oxidative
stress is involved in some cancers. (oxidative+stress+cancer+diabetes -
http://tinyurl.com/g6qyv.) I suppose that one could say the same thing
about aging.

> It seems obvious that dealing to H.Pylori would be a good strategy if
> this were our only concern. H. Pylori has some downside eg ulcers and
> now contributing to cancer risk.  

This study had a sizable population and it said in general.
# The calibrated HR for a 100-g increase in daily intake of total meat
was 2.03 (95% CI, 1.28 - 3.22). (Is this near 1/2 a pound?)
# The positive association between total meat intake and gastric cancer
was restricted to noncardia cancers (calibrated HR, 3.52; 95% CI, 1.96 -
6.34) and did not apply to cardia gastric cancers.

There have been studies that associated cures from H.Pylori infection
using vitamin C (ascorbic acid). (Effect of Helicobacter pylori and its
eradication on gastric juice ascorbic acid -
http://gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/35/3/317; ascorbic+acid+
H+Pylori - http://tinyurl.com/rms8r)

Ascorbic acid deficiency has been associated with type 2 DM.  (Ascorbic
Acid Reduces Blood Pressure and Arterial Stiffness in Type 2 Diabetes -
http://hyper.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/hypertensionaha;40/6/804;
ascorbic+acid+diabetes+deficiency"type 2" - http://tinyurl.com/qfyoe.)

Oxidative stress does go up after eating and seems to relate to
increased blood glucose.

Frank Roy
Jefferson, Md.
David R. Throop - 07 Mar 2006 19:59 GMT
Any guesses as to why red meat (not including processed meats with
added nitrates) would be worse than poultry?  Poultry has a similar
fatty acid profile as does red meat, except for the small amounts of
rumen trans fats in beef and pork.  Is it the heme?
Susan - 07 Mar 2006 20:28 GMT
> Any guesses as to why red meat (not including processed meats with
> added nitrates) would be worse than poultry?  Poultry has a similar
> fatty acid profile as does red meat, except for the small amounts of
> rumen trans fats in beef and pork.  Is it the heme?

Red meat consumption may be highly correlated with french fry and soda
consumption.

Susan
Anil - 08 Mar 2006 02:35 GMT
Good Day Quentin and Susan,

Since I was away for a while I am sorry I have not quite kept up with
my responses.

Not too long ago I had found the following research document that made
the same point MedScape has scooped. A study by Harvard School of
Public Health researchers lead by Frank Hu, assistant professor of
nutrition and cardiovascular disease documented in 2002 that eating a
lot of red meats, refined grains, French fries (Note the mention of
fries Susan) etc will increase your risk of developing diabetes and
cancer as an adult by more than 50%.

While I have no idea just when any of these latest study become
"facts", knowing how red meat is produced (ref:
http://tinyurl.com/o4t2d) I am frankly not able to comprehend how any
one can bring themselves to eating meat at all. But then again I fully
accept that I am in almost minority of one here. In fact the article by
Michel Pollan in NYT Magazine (http://tinyurl.com/o4t2d ) gave me
additional incentive to rethink about milk too. Some how cows eating
cows is an experiment and for that matter, pig eating cows, or pigs etc
does not go well with natural order and hence I have deep reservations
about safety of the end product. Being a vegetarian (and now Vegan) I
am not exactly a neutral observer here.

Anyway I will leave it at that.

Anil

> G'day G'day Folks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Quentin Grady - 08 Mar 2006 17:51 GMT
This post not CC'd by email

>Good Day Quentin and Susan,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>fries Susan) etc will increase your risk of developing diabetes and
>cancer as an adult by more than 50%.

G'day G'day Anil,

 Frank Hu is a pretty decent sort of a bloke.  For the rest of the
world that translates as I accept what he has to say as something
worthy of serious attention.  My interpretation of these matters is
pretty simple, probably too simple to be complete.  

Refined grains and potatoes tend to be identifiable high glycemic
index foods.  The chain as I see it that fast carbs feed inflammation
processes. They aren't the cause. They help it along though. The
French fries these days are likely to have been cooked in oils that
are high in omega-6 which is pro-inflammatory.  The red meat of
America has a high proportion of grain fed, feed lot cattle. Standing
around in a feed lot is not to my mind a healthy existence. The poor
bastards don't even get television like human couch potatoes.
Never the less humans eat their meat hoping to become healthy.  
IMHO they are eating second hand inflammatory compounds such as
arachidonic acid.

It might seem puzzling that chicken meat isn't so deleterious after
all they are grain fed. The chicken that is commonly eaten aren't
battery hens. They usually live in twilight houses and run around on
sawdust.  Cattle aren't natural grain eaters. They eat green pasture
plants principally grasses and clovers.  Hens in the wild eat grain
and forage for insects and grubs.  They aren't vegans. That's for
sure.  Put very simply farming probably requires less of a shift in
diet for hens than it does for cattle in America.  My beef is
accepting that the red meat hypothesis is transportable to other
climes.

IMHO Frank Hu is unlikely to have included the red meat from ostriches
free running in paddocks without predators to worry them in his
trials.  

[snip]

> Being a vegetarian (and now Vegan) I
>am not exactly a neutral observer here.

Agreed.  It makes it even harder than it does for others to view life
with some detachment or at least sufficient detachment to wonder what
the differences might be between red and white meat that could make a
difference.

>Anyway I will leave it at that.
>
>Anil

Welcome back Anil for further fun filled episodes in the days of our
lives.

Best wishes,

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Ma¢k - 08 Mar 2006 19:41 GMT
I'm off for a steak and baked potato and a bloomin onion.

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Alan S - 08 Mar 2006 23:39 GMT
>I'm off for a steak and baked potato and a bloomin onion.

Great meal - but if I remember correctly what a blooming
onion is at Outback (you'll never see one here) it probably
has more fat than the steak and more carbs than the
potato:-)

If you're lucky - the steak will be from Oz (read Quentin
again) where they wander around in paddocks and eat grass.

You'll know if it is; it will be a little tough (less
marbled) for many American palates but it will actually
taste like steak:-)

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 2x500mg
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Susan - 08 Mar 2006 23:48 GMT
>>I'm off for a steak and baked potato and a bloomin onion.
>
> Great meal - but if I remember correctly what a blooming
> onion is at Outback (you'll never see one here) it probably
> has more fat than the steak and more carbs than the
> potato:-)

Yes, it does, and a lot more if you dip in the sauce it comes with.
I used to love Outback, but quality has gone down. I always got the
sirloin with veggies, no potato, and a caesar salad, which was excellent.

> If you're lucky - the steak will be from Oz (read Quentin
> again) where they wander around in paddocks and eat grass.

I buy organic beef from Australia, and it's so much better than the U.S.
natural beef.  Buttery tender, even lean cuts, I've found.  But Outback
meat quality has declined, too, in the past few years.

Susan
Hi_Therre - 09 Mar 2006 10:43 GMT
>>I'm off for a steak and baked potato and a bloomin onion.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>marbled) for many American palates but it will actually
>taste like steak:-)

What US restaurant chains are in OZ?
Alan S - 09 Mar 2006 12:35 GMT
>>>I'm off for a steak and baked potato and a bloomin onion.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>What US restaurant chains are in OZ?

Most of the giant fast food ones. Burger King (aka Hungry
Jacks), Maccas, KFC, Taco Bill, Pizza Hut. Denny's came and
went, as did Wendy's. After that - I'm not sure which are
local and which are foreign franchises. Partly because I
don't patronise many of them:-)

Most of the ones mentioned by US posters here aren't over
here. I must admit I couldn't stop laughing when I wandered
into an Outback in the USA and read their menu (I didn't
stay for a meal:-)

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 2x500mg
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Sleepyman - 09 Mar 2006 22:58 GMT
>>I'm off for a steak and baked potato and a bloomin onion.
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
>d&e, metformin 2x500mg

Less marbling = less flavor. Much of the flavor comes from the fat
(marbling)

Sleepy

------------------------------------------------------------------
It is easier to make a saint out of a libertine than out of a prig.
-George Santayana (1863-1952)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Susan - 09 Mar 2006 23:43 GMT
> Less marbling = less flavor. Much of the flavor comes from the fat
> (marbling)

That's true of Coleman beef, but not the organic beef I buy from
Australia.  It's downright buttery at times.

Susan
Sleepyman - 13 Mar 2006 01:12 GMT
>x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Susan

Coleman?

Sleepy

------------------------------------------------------------------
It is easier to make a saint out of a libertine than out of a prig.
-George Santayana (1863-1952)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Susan - 13 Mar 2006 03:19 GMT
x-n

>>x-no-archive: yes
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> -George Santayana (1863-1952)
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan S - 10 Mar 2006 04:14 GMT
>Less marbling = less flavor. Much of the flavor comes from the fat
>(marbling)
>
>Sleepy

I'm sure you're quite correct - about American grain-fed
steak.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 2x500mg
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Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Sleepyman - 13 Mar 2006 01:13 GMT
>>Less marbling = less flavor. Much of the flavor comes from the fat
>>(marbling)
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
>d&e, metformin 2x500mg

I don't think so........

Sleepy

------------------------------------------------------------------
It is easier to make a saint out of a libertine than out of a prig.
-George Santayana (1863-1952)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Nicky - 09 Mar 2006 13:22 GMT
> The red meat of
> America has a high proportion of grain fed, feed lot cattle. Standing
> around in a feed lot is not to my mind a healthy existence.

What is this feed lot thing? I've never heard of it. Cows over here come in
green pastures...

Nicky.

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Susan - 09 Mar 2006 18:36 GMT
>>The red meat of
>>America has a high proportion of grain fed, feed lot cattle. Standing
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Nicky.

Not if by "over here" you mean what turns up in U.S. supermarkets.

Susan
Nicky - 09 Mar 2006 19:01 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Not if by "over here" you mean what turns up in U.S. supermarkets.

UK.

Nicky.

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1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
95/74/72Kg

Susan - 09 Mar 2006 19:13 GMT
>>>What is this feed lot thing? I've never heard of it. Cows over here come
>>>in green pastures...
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Nicky.

In the U.S., beef cattle live in feedlot pens,  are raised on grain to
make them fatter and more marbled on fat. They're also fed pulverized
animal parts and waste products.  This diet makes them very ill, as they
are ill suited to survive on it. So in addition to not grazing on grass,
which produces a healthful food product (heart healthy fats, lower
arachidonic acid), they end up needing antibiotics for all the ills that
befall them due to diet and awful, cramped living conditions in pens.

Susan
Anil - 09 Mar 2006 20:20 GMT
To further amplify the point Susan is making here is an excerpt from
the NYT article "Power Steer" written by Michael Pollan the author of
"The Botany of Desire''.  I had referred to this one in my earlier
posting.(http://tinyurl.com/o4t2d)
====================
Although the modern cattle industry all but ignores it, the reciprocal
relationship between cows and grass is one of nature's underappreciated
wonders. For the grasses, the cow maintains their habitat by preventing
trees and shrubs from gaining a foothold; the animal also spreads grass
seed, planting it with its hoofs and fertilizing it. In exchange for
these services, the grasses offer the ruminants a plentiful, exclusive
meal. For cows, sheep and other grazers have the unique ability to
convert grass -- which single-stomached creatures like us can't digest
-- into high-quality protein. They can do this because they possess a
rumen, a 45-gallon fermentation tank in which a resident population of
bacteria turns grass into metabolically useful organic acids and
protein.

This is an excellent system for all concerned: for the grasses, for the
animals and for us. What's more, growing meat on grass can make superb
ecological sense: so long as the rancher practices rotational grazing,
it is a sustainable, solar-powered system for producing food on land
too arid or hilly to grow anything else.

So if this system is so ideal, why is it that my cow hasn't tasted a
blade of grass since October? Speed, in a word. Cows raised on grass
simply take longer to reach slaughter weight than cows raised on a
richer diet, and the modern meat industry has devoted itself to
shortening a beef calf's allotted time on earth. ''In my grandfather's
day, steers were 4 or 5 years old at slaughter,'' explained Rich Blair,
who, at 45, is the younger of the brothers by four years. ''In the
50's, when my father was ranching, it was 2 or 3. Now we get there at
14 to 16 months.'' Fast food indeed. What gets a beef calf from 80 to
1,200 pounds in 14 months are enormous quantities of corn, protein
supplements -- and drugs, including growth hormones. These
''efficiencies,'' all of which come at a price, have transformed
raising cattle into a high-volume, low-margin business. Not everybody
is convinced that this is progress.

''Hell,'' Ed Blair told me, ''my dad made more money on 250 head than
we do on 850.''

===================

Anil
Alan S - 09 Mar 2006 20:42 GMT
>> The red meat of
>> America has a high proportion of grain fed, feed lot cattle. Standing
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Nicky.

Doesn't the UK follow the European pattern of putting the
cattle in a barn for the evening?

One of the first things that assailed our senses in
wandering the byroads of Europe was the smell of those small
villages - and some quite large towns. The locals seemed
blissfully unaware of it. It got so bad that if we both
smelled it at the same time as we drove around a corner on a
country road we'd burst into song a la Julie Andrews:

"the hills are alive
to the stench of coooow-sh.t"....

What do they feed them when it's snowing outside?

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 2x500mg
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Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Nicky - 09 Mar 2006 23:06 GMT
>>> The red meat of
>>> America has a high proportion of grain fed, feed lot cattle. Standing
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Doesn't the UK follow the European pattern of putting the
> cattle in a barn for the evening?

One of my friends' Dad was a cow farmer in Devon and used to do that, but
the cows I know in this part of the country stay outdoors. The ones I eat
have a covered area for shelter, with hay there as a supplement, but have
access to grass all year round. I'm pretty sure the ones my BIL herded in
Scotland didn't get even that much mollycoddling : )

Nicky.

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95/74/72Kg

Chris Malcolm - 09 Mar 2006 21:09 GMT
>> The red meat of
>> America has a high proportion of grain fed, feed lot cattle. Standing
>> around in a feed lot is not to my mind a healthy existence.

> What is this feed lot thing? I've never heard of it. Cows over here come in
> green pastures...

If that were true (in the UK) then mad cow disease couldn't possibly
have arisen, let along have been a big problem.

Signature

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IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Nicky - 09 Mar 2006 23:07 GMT
>>> The red meat of
>>> America has a high proportion of grain fed, feed lot cattle. Standing
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> If that were true (in the UK) then mad cow disease couldn't possibly
> have arisen, let along have been a big problem.

Cow cakes, fed at milking time, to milk cows not eating ones. Unfortunately,
we tend to eat boy calves, whose Mums are in the milking parlour.

Nicky.

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Anil - 09 Mar 2006 21:04 GMT
Good Day Quentin!

As always its a joy to be able to pen a few lines here. But getting
your attention makes that even more rewarding! While I have yet to
change any of my diet based on your tremendous insights in various
foods that are familiar to me and many that are not, I feel very
comfortable and confident following my chosen path based on your
writings. In some ways I am repeating what you yourself expresses so
eloquently:  (Ref: Thurs, Jan 26 2006 8:56 pm in response to Frank in
the thread for "ORAC midnight madness")
"Already I have improved my strategies thanks to reading your post. It
probably won't change what I do very much, but it has improved my
confidence that the diet that has evolved here is sounder than might
be guessed at, at first". Thanks again!

I do promise that someday, I will write down my recipes that I have
invented with my dear wife. She being an American and a Jewish I am
fairly confident the resulting food concoctions will be well licked. At
the very least you would know that are safe for at least one diabetic
person! I can aslo say this that I have never enjoyed and appriciated
my food so much!

>Frank Hu is a pretty decent sort of a bloke.  For the rest of the
>world that translates as I accept what he has to say as something
> worthy of serious attention.  My interpretation of these matters is
> pretty simple, probably too simple to be complete.

I forgot to give links to Dr. Fung Hu that I used for my statements.
Its http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/now/feb8/index.html and
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/02.07/09-diabetes.html

And yes he defines "Western Diet" as a diet that embraces red meat,
desserts, high-fat dairy products and processed foods.

I am sure you are right about the reference to red meat. It most
certainly will not include the meat from "ostriches that are free
running in paddocks!"

Happy life!

Anil
Susan - 09 Mar 2006 21:24 GMT
> I do promise that someday, I will write down my recipes that I have
> invented with my dear wife. She being an American and a Jewish I am
> fairly confident the resulting food concoctions will be well licked.

'Round here, my cooking is "well licked" too.  :-)

Susan <American Jewish, too>
Anil - 09 Mar 2006 22:30 GMT
Hey thanks Susan! This is one of my lame spelling mistakes! At least I
can cheat and say I meant it!
I am not always that lucky! bad spelling is not the only bad habbit I
have. I use to feel bad about it way back when. Now like every thing
else I just accept it as one of those things you work arround. It works
MOST of the time...

Anil
Whoes-kids-are-identified-as-Hinjews!
Susan - 09 Mar 2006 23:42 GMT
> Hey thanks Susan! This is one of my lame spelling mistakes! At least I
> can cheat and say I meant it!

LOL.  I hope you weren't offended, I wasn't making fun of your spelling,
just enjoying the result.

> I am not always that lucky! bad spelling is not the only bad habbit I
> have. I use to feel bad about it way back when. Now like every thing
> else I just accept it as one of those things you work arround. It works
> MOST of the time...

> Anil
> Whoes-kids-are-identified-as-Hinjews!

Mine is a McJew  ;-)

Susan
Anil - 10 Mar 2006 01:22 GMT
>> LOL.  I hope you weren't offended, I wasn't making fun of your spelling,
>> just enjoying the result.

Offended and me? Oh God hell no! Been pretty thick skinned. And yes I
will take the licking   LOL.

Anil
W.M.McKee - 10 Mar 2006 02:17 GMT
>x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Susan <American Jewish, too>

You guys are too much! We have a strong Jewish contingent in my
family,too,  but I was not aware that licking the food was part of the
deal!

Will, T2
Quentin Grady - 10 Mar 2006 09:01 GMT
This post not CC'd by email

>Good Day Quentin!
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>comfortable and confident following my chosen path based on your
>writings.

G'day G'day Anil,

 Support is about sharing our empathy for fellow travelers.  Without
that the knowledge we share would be without substance.  I am well
aware that you have chosen a path. We walk along and talk about things
of mutual interest which are many, knowing that at certain cross roads
our paths will separate because our chosen paths are different.  From
time to time we meet again.

>In some ways I am repeating what you yourself expresses so
>eloquently:  (Ref: Thurs, Jan 26 2006 8:56 pm in response to Frank in
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>person! I can aslo say this that I have never enjoyed and appriciated
>my food so much!

Anil you address a very simple point.  Some of favourite recipes come
from a rather tattered and torn Indian vegetarian cook book.  To some
that might seem strange. It isn't in the slightest to me.  In my life
I choose to study people who are successful and to borrow some of
their ways to see if they work for me.  It makes sense to me to look
to India where many people are vegetarian to find out how to get the
maximum from vegetable dishes. To me garam masala added near the end
of cooking vegetables is a gift to humanity.  

>>Frank Hu is a pretty decent sort of a bloke.  For the rest of the
>>world that translates as I accept what he has to say as something
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>certainly will not include the meat from "ostriches that are free
>running in paddocks!"

Ostriches would not have life in New Zealand without farmers.

>Happy life!
>
>Anil

Best wishes,

Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
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                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

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