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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / March 2006

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Study Casts Doubt on Glycemic Index

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symp.el@gmail.com - 01 Mar 2006 20:13 GMT
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/01/D8G2MOA00.html

Diets that distinguish between "good carbs" and "bad carbs," are not an
effective way of controlling blood sugar levels, a new study suggests.

Although made popular by the South Beach Diet and others, the glycemic
index has never been fully embraced by most dietitians and remains a
point of debate among scientists.

Now, diabetes researcher Elizabeth Mayer-Davis of the University of
South Carolina says the use of the index should be ended altogether in
favor of more traditional methods of losing weight and reducing the
risk of diabetes _ eating less and exercising more.

"The glycemic index is sufficiently flawed as an index that it is not
helpful for scientists or people trying to create a healthy diet,"
Mayer-Davis said.

The glycemic index is a 100-point scale, with white bread at 100
points, that measures how quickly carbohydrates enter the bloodstream
as sugar.

According to index supporters, people should avoid high-glycemic foods
such as white bread and potatoes because they will quickly raise a
person's blood-sugar level. Meanwhile, low-glycemic foods such as
carrots and apples are absorbed more slowly, making a person feel full
longer and reducing cravings, which helps with weight loss.

Promoters of the diet also say that eating low-glycemic foods will
result in less fluctuation in their blood sugar levels.

Both the Atkins and South Beach diets have raised interest in the
theory, and an entire series, "The Glucose Revolution," guides
consumers through a diet based on it.

Beth Kunkel, a professor of food science and human nutrition at Clemson
University and president of the South Carolina Dietetic Association,
said that while there is debate among dietitians about its validity, it
would be a mistake to reject the concept altogether. Kunkel was not
involved in the University of South Carolina study.

"To just reject it out of hand and quit working on it would be a
mistake," Kunkel said. "I just think we're five to 10 years away from
really understanding it from a research viewpoint."

Previous studies have shown conflicting results. One small study showed
that people on a low-glycemic diet were less hungry later in the day
than a group fed a high-glycemic diet. Another study, involving 39
overweight people, showed that those on a low-glycemic diet lowered
their risk of heart disease. Both studies were conducted by Dr. David
Ludwig of Boston's Children's Hospital.

However, American Heart Association officials have disputed the
significance of those findings.

The new study, published in the February issue of the British Journal
of Nutrition, relied on food questionnaires from more than 1,000 people
over five years and assessed their consumption of high- and
low-glycemic foods. Researchers tested their blood sugar levels twice
during the study period and found no significant correlation between
the glycemic index of foods and the blood-sugar levels of participants.

Mayer-Davis said that researchers should develop a new measure of how
different carbohydrates can affect health. She said a better index
would be based on the physical characteristics of foods, such as fat
content and calories, because numerous factors influence a food's
effect on blood-sugar levels.

___

On the Net:

University of South Carolina's Arnold School of Public Health:

http://www.sph.sc.edu

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/01/D8G2MOA00.html
wmmckee@cox.net - 01 Mar 2006 21:09 GMT
> The glycemic index is a 100-point scale, with white bread at 100
> points, that measures how quickly carbohydrates enter the bloodstream
> as sugar.

Interesting reading, but this is not the study, itself.... It seems like
there may be some "spin" put on it by the writer of this article. For one
thing, I seem to recall pure glucose as having the 100 point GI. Many white
breads are less, say in the 80's.

For another thing, going low carb, with one eye on the glycemic index,
played a major role in my being able to lose more than 50 lbs over a 9 month
period last year, thus getting my BG really under control.... Sure, the
concept may have some flaws, but in combination with moderate exercise,
overall calorie control, avoiding trans fats, and common sense, it works....
I am going to stick with what I know works.

So, to sum up, I submit that any T2s out there who want to load up on white
bread and fries are certainly free to do it.....at their own peril. Just be
sure to keep checking your BG with your meter after eating all the bread,
rice, cakes, and pies to see what I am talking about.

Will, T2
Tecknomage - 02 Mar 2006 12:30 GMT
> > The glycemic index is a 100-point scale, with white bread at 100
> > points, that measures how quickly carbohydrates enter the bloodstream
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Will, T2

I agree.  I just read the article and it IS slanted.

Last year (after a decade as T2) my BG went all over the place and
high.  My Diabetic Counselor rescheduled my meds (increased one) and
encouraged me into a low-carb diet.  Two months later my BG was back
in range and much more stable.

What surprised me was the side effect of a low-carb diet.  You see, I
don't like exercise for exercise sake, so I don't.  But after 6mths on
a low-carb diet I lost 50lbs!  Without trying!  You bet I'm staying on
low-carb and the nay-sayers can go stuff it.

======= Tecknomage =======
     San Diego, CA
   The Mage Soapbox
http://magesoapbox.blogspot.com/
Alan S - 02 Mar 2006 00:01 GMT
>http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/01/D8G2MOA00.html
>
>Diets that distinguish between "good carbs" and "bad carbs," are not an
>effective way of controlling blood sugar levels, a new study suggests.

Based on the papers of hers that I've seen, Mayer-Davis has
hardly been a supporter of the Glycemic Index or of low carb
diets for diabetics.

She is a signatory on the pronouncement below from the ADA -
and so is Janette Brand-Miller. I'm not certain that that is
the same person as Jenny Brand-Miller, of GI fame, but if it
is there must have been some interesting discussions behind
the scenes before this was published.

I don't totally agree with Brand-Miller when the GI and GL
are applied to diabetics - but it certainly has more
validity than some of Mayer-Davis's pronouncements, such as
"Low-carbohydrate diets are not recommended in the
management of diabetes" - I'm sure she had a lot to do with
that particular statement.

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/reprint/27/9/2266.pdf

Summary

. Regulation of blood glucose to achieve near-normal levels
is a primary goal in the management of diabetes, and, thus,
dietary techniques that limit hyperglycemia following a meal
are likely important in limiting the complications of
diabetes.

. Low-carbohydrate diets are not recommended in the
management of diabetes. Although dietary carbohydrate is the
major contributor to postprandial glucose concentration, it
is an important source of energy, water-soluble vitamins and
minerals, and fiber. Thus, in agreement with the National
Academy of Sciences–Food and Nutrition Board, a recommended
range of carbohydrate intake is 45–65% of total calories. In
addition, because the brain and central nervous system have
an absolute requirement for glucose as an energy source,
restricting total carbohydrate to
130 g/day is not recommended.

. Both the amount (grams) of carbohydrate as well as the
type of carbohydrate in a food influence blood glucose
level. The total amount of carbohydrate consumed
is a strong predictor of glycemic response, and, thus,
monitoring total grams of carbohydrate, whether by use
of exchanges or carbohydrate counting, remains a key
strategy in achieving glycemic control.

. A recent analysis of the randomized controlled trials that
have examined the efficacy of the glycemic index on overall
blood glucose control indicates that the use of this
technique can provide an additional benefit over that
observed when total carbohydrate is considered
alone.

. Although this statement has focused primarily on the role
of carbohydrate in the diet, the importance of achieving/
maintaining a healthy body weight (particularly in type 2
diabetes) in the management of diabetes should not be
ignored. Moderate weight loss in overweight/obese
individuals with type 2 diabetes results in improved control
of hyperglycemia as well as in a reduction in risk factors
for cardiovascular disease.

. Because much of the risk of developing type 2 diabetes is
attributable to obesity, maintenance of a healthy body
weight is strongly recommended as a means of preventing this
disease. The relationship between glycemic index and
glycemic load and the development of type 2 diabetes remains
unclear at this time.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
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Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Jefferson - 02 Mar 2006 20:27 GMT
Hi Alan S:

>>http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/01/D8G2MOA00.html
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> hardly been a supporter of the Glycemic Index or of low carb
> diets for diabetics.
(snipped)

> http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/reprint/27/9/2266.pdf
(snipped)

Dr. Thomas Wolever has written a lot on glycemic index and glycemic
load.  Some of the articles are co-authored by Jenny Brand-Miller.
Thomas+Wolever+ glycemic+index - http://tinyurl.com/juhug.

Dietary Glycemic Index and Glycemic Load, Carbohydrate and Fiber Intake,
and Measures of Insulin Sensitivity, Secretion, and Adiposity in the
Insulin Resistance Atherosclerosis Study -
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/28/12/2832

"CONCLUSION—Carbohydrates as reflected in glycemic index and glycemic
load may not be related to measures of insulin sensitivity, insulin
secretion, and adiposity. Fiber intake may not only have beneficial
effects on insulin sensitivity and adiposity, but also on pancreatic
functionality."

Frank
Amy - 02 Mar 2006 20:43 GMT
Alan wrote:

I don't totally agree with Brand-Miller when the GI and GL
are applied to diabetics - but it certainly has more
validity than some of Mayer-Davis's pronouncements, such as
"Low-carbohydrate diets are not recommended in the
management of diabetes" - I'm sure she had a lot to do with
that particular statement.

-------------

Hi Alan,

I have a copy of Brand-Miller et al's "The Glucose Revolution for
people with diabetes"
in which the recommendation for "a small person" is a whopping 225g
carbs per day.
IIRC (I would have to read it again) there is little, if any, advice to
refer to a meter whilst following the suggested meal plans.  Yet the
book is presented as the apotheosis of scientific research.

Imo, that is just irresponsible.

Amy
Susan - 02 Mar 2006 20:56 GMT
> Alan wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Amy

That 225 number comes directly from Reaven, the insulin resistance
researcher at Stanford.  I was shocked to read it as his recommendation
in *response* to IR.

Susan
Amy - 02 Mar 2006 22:59 GMT
Hi Susan,

Any idea how he arrived at that number?  The only thing I can think of,
on the plus side, is that it's an improvement on the 300g + which is
often quoted as to how many carbs "the average American" consumes in a
day.

I should have said in my post, that I have no objection to the
glycaemic index in itself - and use it all the time.  It's only one
factor though, albeit an important one.

Amy
Susan - 02 Mar 2006 23:37 GMT
> Hi Susan,
>
> Any idea how he arrived at that number?  The only thing I can think of,
> on the plus side, is that it's an improvement on the 300g + which is
> often quoted as to how many carbs "the average American" consumes in a
> day.

I don't recall his explanation.  Even the texts that say the brain needs
130 grams of glucose per day don't say you can't get glucose from
protein.  I remember when I was reading it years ago, thinking that he
was toeing the party line to avoid becoming a scientific outcast, like
Marshall with h. pylori, or the doc who suggested a role for
homocysteine in CVD.

> I should have said in my post, that I have no objection to the
> glycaemic index in itself - and use it all the time.  It's only one
> factor though, albeit an important one.

I just haven't found that it works for me as a diabetic. I can't imagine
how it would work for anyone eating a mixed meal, or with differences in
types of preparation.

But it does seem to get some folks off the fast carbs, and if their
metabolism is still good enough to respond well, that's good.

Susan
Ozgirl - 02 Mar 2006 23:55 GMT
"Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in message
> I don't recall his explanation.  Even the texts that say the brain needs
> 130 grams of glucose per day don't say you can't get glucose from
> protein.

That statement, so often quoted, never gets explained and is
therefore totally open to misinterpretation.
Susan - 03 Mar 2006 00:03 GMT
> "Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> That statement, so often quoted, never gets explained and is
> therefore totally open to misinterpretation.

Which statement?

Susan
Ozgirl - 03 Mar 2006 00:15 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Which statement?

That the brain needs 130 gr glucose per day. So many believe
that you have to have 130 gr *carb* at least just to feed
your brain.
Susan - 03 Mar 2006 01:25 GMT
> That the brain needs 130 gr glucose per day. So many believe
> that you have to have 130 gr *carb* at least just to feed
> your brain.

Yes, that's the misconception, and it appears even in health texts!
FTR, 130 is the highest number I've ever read; most say closer to 100.

Susan
Alan S - 03 Mar 2006 02:24 GMT
>Hi Susan,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Amy

I greatly respect Jenny Brand-Miller. Read her bio sometime
- inspirational.

However, I used Jennifer's testing advice to determine my
personal glycemic load data for the foods I eat myself. So I
see the concept as valid, but the application as totally
individual for each diabetic. Among other things the GI
theory takes no account AFAIK of dawn phenomenon for us.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 2x500mg
Signature

Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Amy - 03 Mar 2006 08:58 GMT
Hi Alan,

I have a lot of respect for the GI researchers, especially in this
sense:  they have succeeded in getting a lot of people (including
non-diabetics) to rethink how they refuel.  The best part of this is a
turning away from the extremely prevalent use of processed and highly
refined foods, and towards choices which are much closer to how our
metabolisms and digestive systems are equipped to process.  Still, in
my local supermarket, I see whole aisles devoted to what I'd describe
as culinary suicide...

In what I've said about the book I read, I am not so much thinking of
myself as I am of the newly diagnosed diabetic, or the diabetic who
finds they need to gain tighter control.   They pick up the book.  They
think "written by researchers."  It's presented as a "solution."
There's nothing in it to suggest that the reader may have to treat it
with a grain (let alone a barrel) of salt.

IOW, it's taking good research and applying it in a way which suggests
a panacea.  I really think that's dangerous.  Most people I know would
read it and think, "all I have to do is eat low GI and everything will
be fine"...

Amy

P.S.  On the other hand, something like David Mendosa's site (which is
now recommended by dieticians in the UK as a reliable source) is much
more diabetic-friendly.  He gives you the GI and GL values and then
sends you off to consult your meter.  That's much more useful - and
conscientious.
wmmckee@cox.net - 02 Mar 2006 21:22 GMT
> I have a copy of Brand-Miller et al's "The Glucose Revolution for
> people with diabetes"
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Amy

Hi Amy and Susan,

This does all seem a little confusing, especially in regard to their
recommended carb consumption. I think for us with T2 diabetes, the sure
guide remains our meters, taking into account what we have come to
appreciate about the glycemic index, without totally accepting it as gospel.
I can attest, however, that reducing the high GI foods in relative
proportion of my diet has helped me get control over my BG levels.... I
consider myself to be a mid-sized person 5'10" 175-180 lbs.... 100-125 carbs
per day, overall, would be more than enough for me. Also, I get by quite
nicely on 1200-1300 calories overall, on most days.

Will, T2   (who wakes up every day with a BG of 85-105)
metformin 500mg x 2 daily
zestoretic 20 mg x 2 daily
Mr. Gantlet - 02 Mar 2006 21:44 GMT
I have nothing against the glycemic index is as good as anything.
i think it is up to us to determine what diet is better for us.
i dont not allow it to tell me what I can eat.
I simply use my activity level to do that.
if i feel like i want to eat something sweet - i go for a nice walk.
if i want something sweeter - i go for a longer walk.
i eat about 200 carbs per day and take no medications.
my FBS is in the 90's and below.
it only took me 6 months to get off medications while following a low fat
diet of 200 carbs per day.
i eat what i want when ever i want and let my activity level handle the
rest.
no meds and for the past 3 years have always had A1C's in the 5%.
but what i really like is the ability to have FBS in the 90's and below.
they would have a hard time diagnosing me diabetic - even tho i know i am.
some people do better on low carb - i can not.
i am not about to give up those things i want - when all i have to do is
have it with a nice walk or bike ride.
for me not running away from carbs means i have to stay and fight for them.
and that fight for me is easily won with exercise.
carbs not only give me the motivation to exercise they also give me the fuel
to exercise.
Signature

Tom
Exercise Today = Life Tomorrow
Information you can trust from the diabetes experts...
Your American Diabetes Association
http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp
the American Diabetes Association's Message Boards
http://community.diabetes.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=amdiabetesz&nav=index

ADA's Diabetes Learning Center
http://diabetes.org/about-diabetes.jsp
Joslin Center Beginner's Guide.
http://www.joslin.org/Beginners_guide.asp
Pictures of My motorcycle and I think 2 of my doggies.
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wmmckee@cox.net - 02 Mar 2006 21:54 GMT
> some people do better on low carb - i can not.
> i am not about to give up those things i want - when all i have to do is
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> to exercise.
> --

That's truly great Tom... The really good thing for you is that you have
figured out how to really have enough of the things you really enjoy and
still be able to control your Blood Glucose. As Loretta often says,
"everyone is different." Also, I think it is significant that you have
really been monitoring your BG as you have gone along, so you know what you
can comfortably do, and what you should not do. It certainly sounds like
exercise really works to give you that extra degree of freedom in your diet,
also.... Not everyone is able to exercise like you apparently do, for a
whole host of reasons.

Thanks for sharing your experience and successes!

Will, T2
Ozgirl - 02 Mar 2006 23:08 GMT
> I have nothing against the glycemic index is as good as anything.
> i think it is up to us to determine what diet is better for us.

Lol, that's not what you just told Chris.
Alan S - 03 Mar 2006 02:25 GMT
>> I have nothing against the glycemic index is as good as
>anything.
>> i think it is up to us to determine what diet is better
>for us.
>
>Lol, that's not what you just told Chris.

I'm rather impressed with Chris. Anyone who gets Tom's seal
of disapproval is definitely someone worth reading.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 2x500mg
Signature

Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Mr. Gantlet - 03 Mar 2006 02:44 GMT
>>> I have nothing against the glycemic index is as good as
>>anything.
>>> i think it is up to us to determine what diet is better
>>for us.
>>
>>Lol, that's not what you just told Chris.

only a fool or a liar would think i was trying to change Chris's mind
about diet.  i just wish he was smart enough to know that doctors know
more than he does.

well it does look to me that he was given high carb meals
and insulin and other meds for those meals.  he didnt take the meal
but did take the meds. as a result i am sure a newbies doctor would
say that caused his numbers to go down too fast. real hard to figure out.

> I'm rather impressed with Chris. Anyone who gets Tom's seal
> of disapproval is definitely someone worth reading.

what do you think about someone that takes as many medications
as you do for cholestoral and Blood sugar handing out nutrional advice?

you and i both were diagnosed about the same time 3 years ago.
you went your way and i went mine.  you told me that yu went your way
because you didnt want to take blood sugar meds.
you are the one taking them and have progressed to the point that even a
small
amount of carbs send you spiking and you are taking medications for that and
cholesterol.
i on the other hand can live life very much like a non diabetic.
some things were just meant to be.  i do notice tho that everytime i make a
few points
about how wrong you are the trolls start again.
you want to fight Alan i am not newly dx'd anymore.  I wont fight like you
do with name calling.
but i will let it known to every newbie that comes in here just how well
your advice has worked for YOU!!!!
the past 3 years.  you are a retired cab driver with an internect connection
ready to take on the top scientists around the world.  unplug your computer
and you are worthless. not that you are worth anything with it.

> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
> d&e, metformin 2x500mg
Alan S - 03 Mar 2006 03:34 GMT
>>>> I have nothing against the glycemic index is as good as
>>>anything.
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>ready to take on the top scientists around the world.  unplug your computer
>and you are worthless. not that you are worth anything with it.

Hi Tom

Thanks for that insight.

Aaah. Sigh. Breathe out.

I hope that was as good for you as it was for me. Feeling
better now?

Tom, give it up. You used the situation of one of our
posters to illustrate a point - without checking your facts
with that poster. When he called you on it you filibustered
and descended to ad hominem attacks on him - and now me.

Oddly enough, there is some truth in your final comment:
"you are a retired cab driver with an internect connection
ready to take on the top scientists around the world."

You neglected to mention that I'm also a retired
newspaper-boy, service-station attendant, farm-hand,
cleaner, radio technician, property developer and avionics
engineer and military officer among other things. I'm not
sure which occupation, if any, has relevance. My most
relevant occupation IMO is "practising type 2 diabetic".

It also depends on which scientist. I'm sure that the vast
majority are brilliant, selfless, incredibly well-educated
individuals with enquiring minds and a thirst for knowledge.
I applaud them and I'm in awe of them.

Unfortunately, some are time-servers in sinecures churning
out publications repeating dated findings to justify their
existence in academia or government. It's odd how a lot of
those seem to be researching in the areas of interest to me
- diet and type 2 diabetes. And I'll take my chances in a
debate with any one of those.

As to how well it has worked for me; I know, it's sad
really. I know I could be a lot better - A1c sub 6, FBG sub
6mmol/L(108), all PPs sub 7 at any time lately. BMI is still
a little high at 28, but acceptable. But I'm working on it.

Anyway, I'm descending to your level and rambling.

'bye Tom.

Alan, T2, Australia.
Just for Tom:
d&e, metformin 2x500mg
lipitor20mg
CoQ10
B12
Calcium
Signature

Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Mr. Gantlet - 03 Mar 2006 03:49 GMT
"Alan S" <loralweightandcarbs@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> You neglected to mention that I'm also a retired
> newspaper-boy, service-station attendant, farm-hand,
> cleaner, radio technician, property developer and avionics
> engineer and military officer among other things.

yes alan you were trained in the military for all those things.
when you got out of the Army after your training and looking for a job
you became a cab driver for 17 years until you retired.
not bad i guess, you started driving the cab at around age 30?
i dont know how you can take that as an attack.  when i was younger and hurt
my back
i drove a carb until my back got better.  see we have something in common.
is that an attack? no.. unless you feel talking about someones job is an
attack.
are those all the medications?

> 'bye Tom.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> B12
> Calcium
Ozgirl - 03 Mar 2006 04:18 GMT
"Mr. Gantlet" <gantletSPAM@verizon.net> wrote in message

> i drove a carb until my back got better.  see we have something in common.

Tom, I have to laugh. What is it like to drive a carb? :)
Actually I saw the oppostie typo in this group in the past
few days. Someone said car instead of carb.
Mr. Gantlet - 03 Mar 2006 05:03 GMT
> "Mr. Gantlet" <gantletSPAM@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Actually I saw the oppostie typo in this group in the past
> few days. Someone said car instead of carb.

I just made sure I didn't drive one with a fat tire.
actually it was very scary.  it was in the 80's in the middle
of the CRACK years and I was driving from 6pm until 6am .driving down the
wrong block I had a crack
head jump in my car and start stabbing my passenger in the arm with a screw
driver.
I also almost got mugged a few times.
Ozgirl - 03 Mar 2006 09:16 GMT
"Mr. Gantlet" <gantletSPAM@verizon.net> wrote in message
> I just made sure I didn't drive one with a fat tire.
> actually it was very scary.  it was in the 80's in the middle
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> driver.
> I also almost got mugged a few times.

Hoyl cow! I wouldn't relax there.
Mr. Gantlet - 03 Mar 2006 17:11 GMT
> "Mr. Gantlet" <gantletSPAM@verizon.net> wrote in message
>> I just made sure I didn't drive one with a fat tire.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Hoyl cow! I wouldn't relax there.

its not so bad now but still hard to relax if you live here
and have a job.
Nicky - 03 Mar 2006 09:04 GMT
> unplug your computer and you are worthless. not that you are worth
> anything with it.

Yuk. Back to form. Bye, Tom.

Nicky.

Signature

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95/74/72Kg

Ma¢k - 02 Mar 2006 20:09 GMT
I trust my meter more than any study.

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wmmckee@cox.net - 02 Mar 2006 20:39 GMT
On  2-Mar-2006, "Amy" <tesselate@googlemail.com> wrote:

> *turmeric, coriander, ginger, cumin, fenugreek, garlic, allspice,
> cayenne pepper

Here, here! You said it Mack...

Will, T2
Ma¢k - 02 Mar 2006 21:21 GMT
>On  2-Mar-2006, "Amy" <tesselate@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Will, T2

Mack looks at Will with a raised eyebrow, wondering when Will started
playing, "smack your forehead with a ball peen hammer."

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wmmckee@cox.net - 02 Mar 2006 21:43 GMT
Sorry, Mack.... that ball peen smarts! :-) I deserved that one, I guess. I
should have been more careful in copying what I was responding to into the
next message.

It should have referenced your previous post, in which you said, "I trust my
meter more than any study."

I was in attempting to express agreement with your post, Mack, ableit
ineffectively, due to my own sloppiness. What you saw was something from one
of Amy's posts, instead of yours.....

Hope you are having a great day!

Will, T2
Ma¢k - 02 Mar 2006 21:55 GMT
>Sorry, Mack.... that ball peen smarts! :-) I deserved that one, I guess. I
>should have been more careful in copying what I was responding to into the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Will, T2

NewsRover doesn't automatically quote when you hit the reply button?
;}

I figured that was what you were actually referring to, but 2
misquotes in one day is kinda hard not to poke fun at.

Just relaxing until I go in to work tonight.  Gotta work 4 days
instead of 3 this week.  Someone actually wants to take time off, go
figure.

Signature

Mâck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
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"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
...Theodore Roosevelt

        (o ô)  
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
             ....Bilbo Baggins

Jesus never hated anyone.
           

wmmckee@cox.net - 02 Mar 2006 22:09 GMT
> NewsRover doesn't automatically quote when you hit the reply button?
> ;}

Not really....It requires operator intervention... and sometimes, there is
operator error! ;-) Good thing this is not a submarine or an $18million
airplane.

At home, I use Agent, and that software is much more fool proof, at least as
to replies. Hope you have a great evening. Sorry about your having to go to
work.

I am going to be helping out with a homeless shelter for a while this
evening, myself. That is something I do in one way or another quite a
bit.... Every now and then they have homeless diabetics who show up. That is
really, really tragic, because those folks find it extremely difficult to
get the care and medication most of us get relatively easily. You know, no
money, no job, no good clothes to wear, no transportation, no good food to
eat, being robbed all the time, and nobody who cares.... Some of the
homeless really have it bad.

Will, T2
Ma¢k - 02 Mar 2006 22:33 GMT
>> NewsRover doesn't automatically quote when you hit the reply button?
>> ;}
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>to replies. Hope you have a great evening. Sorry about your having to go to
>work.

eh, the funny thing is the guy I am filling in for had to swallow his
pride and was told to ask me directly if I would fill in for him.  He
was really surprised when I simply replied, sure no problem.  Trust me
long story involving his bad behavior.

>I am going to be helping out with a homeless shelter for a while this
>evening, myself. That is something I do in one way or another quite a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Will, T2

Oh I know what it's like.  I also know what it's like running out of
insulin and syringes while on the street and having to jump through
hoops, not mention walking all over town to get doctors and welfare
forms filled out just to get a 2 bottles of insulin and (1) 10 pack of
syringes.  Which shelter?  Virginia Beach out Reach, the one on the
corner across from the old trailer park?

Signature

Mâck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
...Theodore Roosevelt

        (o ô)  
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
             ....Bilbo Baggins

Jesus never hated anyone.
           

wmmckee@cox.net - 02 Mar 2006 23:04 GMT
> Oh I know what it's like.  I also know what it's like running out of
> insulin and syringes while on the street and having to jump through
> hoops, not mention walking all over town to get doctors and welfare
> forms filled out just to get a 2 bottles of insulin and (1) 10 pack of
> syringes.  Which shelter?  Virginia Beach out Reach, the one on the
> corner across from the old trailer park?

Sorry to hear about your hard experiences, Mack.... You do know what I am
talking about.

This one tonight is run by Virginia Beach Outreach...

I am also on the Board of Directors of St. Columba. We maintain
semi-permanent housing for men (2 houses) and for women (2 houses) and have
an education and counselling program in place. Additionally we have a day
shelter on Lafayette St., in Norfolk, where we provide meals, clothing,
food, hot showers, laundry, rental assistance in hardship cases, etc. There
is always a need for volunteers, food, money, clothes, you name it.....  It
takes some time, but it is worth the effort, I think.

Will, T2
Ozgirl - 02 Mar 2006 23:15 GMT
> >> NewsRover doesn't automatically quote when you hit the reply button?
> >> ;}
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> was really surprised when I simply replied, sure no problem.  Trust me
> long story involving his bad behavior.

I love humble pie.
wmmckee@cox.net - 02 Mar 2006 23:32 GMT
>  love humble pie.

Well, Jan, at least I don't think it will elevate my glucose level, unlike a
nice apple pie! ;-)

Hope you are doing OK tonight...

Will, T2
Alan S - 03 Mar 2006 02:32 GMT
>> eh, the funny thing is the guy I am filling in for had to
>swallow his
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>I love humble pie.

You need to visit me - we used to eat it often before I was
diagnosed, now I can't:-)

15km down the road:
http://www.humblepie.com.au/menu.htm

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 2x500mg
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Vicki Beausoleil - 03 Mar 2006 03:39 GMT
>>>eh, the funny thing is the guy I am filling in for had to
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
> d&e, metformin 2x500mg

Look at that meat pie in the front of the display. It's just begging to
be dumped in a big bowl of pea soup.

I told my husband about a pie floater. He can't wait to try it. Good
thing Aussie or English style meat pies aren't available around here.
That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!

:-)

Vicki
Ozgirl - 03 Mar 2006 04:16 GMT
"Vicki Beausoleil" <VBeausoleil@netscape.net> wrote in

> I told my husband about a pie floater. He can't wait to try it. Good
> thing Aussie or English style meat pies aren't available around here.
> That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!

They have English Pork Pies in some supermarkets and delis
here. I have never tried one as they are ridiculously
expensive.
Vicki Beausoleil - 03 Mar 2006 04:40 GMT
> "Vicki Beausoleil" <VBeausoleil@netscape.net> wrote in
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> here. I have never tried one as they are ridiculously
> expensive.

The store I work in sells English-style meat pies, along with steak and
kidney pie and pasties.  And tourtiere, which generally has less crust
and is a flaky crust instead of a hot water crust. The specialty pies
are also expensive here, compared to tourtiere.

Like I said, it's an excuse. My husband hasn't set foot in a grocery
store since I got my driver's license 20 years ago. Good thing they
don't sell those meat pies at the corner store, I'd be found out!

Vicki
wmmckee@cox.net - 03 Mar 2006 16:41 GMT
> The store I work in sells English-style meat pies, along with steak and
> kidney pie and pasties

The last time I had steak and kidney pie was in a nice little restaurant a
few years back in Edinburgh, just down from the castle. It was really rather
tasty.

Will, T2
Chris Malcolm - 05 Mar 2006 13:25 GMT
>> The store I work in sells English-style meat pies, along with steak and
>> kidney pie and pasties

> The last time I had steak and kidney pie was in a nice little restaurant a
> few years back in Edinburgh, just down from the castle. It was really rather
> tasty.

Was the restaurant called the Witchery? That's a five star restaurant
with an excellent reputation for good traditional cooking.

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W.M.McKee - 05 Mar 2006 14:09 GMT
>>> The store I work in sells English-style meat pies, along with steak and
>>> kidney pie and pasties
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Was the restaurant called the Witchery? That's a five star restaurant
>with an excellent reputation for good traditional cooking.

Might have been, Chris. I know I have eaten at the Witchery. The truth
is I stayed there about two weeks, and have eaten at many fine
establishments in your country. I seem to remember that it was not far
from St. Giles Cathedral.

I hope you are well, today.

Will, T2
Chris Malcolm - 05 Mar 2006 19:06 GMT
>>>> The store I work in sells English-style meat pies, along with steak and
>>>> kidney pie and pasties
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>Was the restaurant called the Witchery? That's a five star restaurant
>>with an excellent reputation for good traditional cooking.

> Might have been, Chris. I know I have eaten at the Witchery. The truth
> is I stayed there about two weeks, and have eaten at many fine
> establishments in your country. I seem to remember that it was not far
> from St. Giles Cathedral.

Ah, that's much further from the castle than the Witchery. Was it on
the opposite side of the road from the cathedral? Did it make a
special feature of traditional Scottish food?

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W.M.McKee - 05 Mar 2006 19:40 GMT
>>>>> The store I work in sells English-style meat pies, along with steak and
>>>>> kidney pie and pasties
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>the opposite side of the road from the cathedral? Did it make a
>special feature of traditional Scottish food?

Well, mind you, the name of "The Witchery" does ring a bell, so I am
sure I have eaten there. But the place I am thinking of was more like
a smallish cafe, and I seem to remember its being on the opposite side
from St. Giles, and down a little on what might be called the
esplanade.... But they had very memorable steak and kidney pie!

A major part of my family originate from your neck of the woods, by
the way, as you may have gathered from some of my posts. And yet, had
they not left, I would not be who I am today, if I would even here at
all. You live in a truly lovely and enchanted place, I would say. I
have thought of moving over there, myself, from time to tiime, since I
visited a few years ago. I could claim Irish citizenship, I hear, but
things would be tougher in the UK. On the other hand, since I am very
American, there would not be much point.... Part of my mom's family
were from Perthshire and others were from Glasgow.

Hope you are well today, Chris.

Will, T2
Chris Malcolm - 06 Mar 2006 20:32 GMT
>>>>> The last time I had steak and kidney pie was in a nice little restaurant a
>>>>> few years back in Edinburgh, just down from the castle. It was really rather
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>the opposite side of the road from the cathedral? Did it make a
>>special feature of traditional Scottish food?

> Well, mind you, the name of "The Witchery" does ring a bell, so I am
> sure I have eaten there. But the place I am thinking of was more like
> a smallish cafe, and I seem to remember its being on the opposite side
> from St. Giles, and down a little on what might be called the
> esplanade.... But they had very memorable steak and kidney pie!

Sounds like the one I was thinking of. Alas, pies are no longer part
on the menu for me :-(

> A major part of my family originate from your neck of the woods, by
> the way, as you may have gathered from some of my posts. And yet, had
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> American, there would not be much point.... Part of my mom's family
> were from Perthshire and others were from Glasgow.

There are a lot of Americans in Edinburgh. Because of its large
universities, and the Edinburgh Festival, it's a lot more
cosmopolitan than you'd expect for its size and location.

> Hope you are well today, Chris.

I am. You might be interested to know that I originally hail from
Perth. Part of my father's family moved to Glasgow, but sad to say I
recently attended the funerals of the last of them. I lived in Perth
from the age of about 3 to 18. It was my father's home town, but
during the war against Germany my mother moved all over the country
trying to find somewhere safe from German bombs for her children. I
got to know Edinburgh when I became a university student there in the
early 1960s, and adopted it as my home town of choice.

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IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
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wmmckee@cox.net - 06 Mar 2006 23:26 GMT
> I am. You might be interested to know that I originally hail from
> Perth. Part of my father's family moved to Glasgow, but sad to say I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> got to know Edinburgh when I became a university student there in the
> early 1960s, and adopted it as my home town of choice.

That is interesting, Chris. It is also interesting that you were living in
Edinburgh when I visited your fair city. Also one of my daughters spent
considerable time there in the 90's, when she was an exchange student in
London. As things stand now, we do have some family in the area of Leeds.
Next time I go over there, I would like to meet you, if you would be
interested...

Will, T2
Chris Malcolm - 07 Mar 2006 02:21 GMT
>> I am. You might be interested to know that I originally hail from
>> Perth. Part of my father's family moved to Glasgow, but sad to say I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> got to know Edinburgh when I became a university student there in the
>> early 1960s, and adopted it as my home town of choice.

> That is interesting, Chris. It is also interesting that you were living in
> Edinburgh when I visited your fair city. Also one of my daughters spent
> considerable time there in the 90's, when she was an exchange student in
> London. As things stand now, we do have some family in the area of Leeds.
> Next time I go over there, I would like to meet you, if you would be
> interested...

Of course! Always interested to meet a cyberfriend in meat space :-)
In case your email address, like mine, is intended to confuse
spambots, you can contact me via my web page as in my sig below.

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Alan S - 03 Mar 2006 08:11 GMT
>Look at that meat pie in the front of the display. It's just begging to
>be dumped in a big bowl of pea soup.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Vicki

I have an annual "pie-try-day" with a pie like the one in
the picture - from Humble Pie. About 12cm (5") diameter. And
they do taste wonderful; meat in a rich spicy gravy, Aussie
tomato sauce, puff pastry...sigh...

I once worked out the carbs and fat in the standard Aussie
meat-pie-for-one. Scary - IIRC both were well over 40gm. A
cardiac arrest in a handy flaky pastry envelope. Every year
I went over 10(180) at one hour - but I haven't tried since
I started on metformin. Must be nearly pie-try-day again:-)

Maybe I'll only try a half-pie this time...

BTW, the Nimbin Aquarius Festival is famous for other
reasons. It's the chopped parsley capital of Australia - you
can buy little packets of chopped parsley anywhere on the
main (and almost the only) street. At least, they will tell
you it's parsley if there's a cop in earshot. They hold
another annual festival; it's called the Mardi Grass
http://www.nimbinmardigrass.com/ . They had a bus once,
called the Cannabus - but that's another story.

Interesting place, Nimbin. A snap-shot of the '70s:-) It
also has the largest police station, based on population, of
any small town in the state.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 2x500mg
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Ozgirl - 03 Mar 2006 09:19 GMT
> >Look at that meat pie in the front of the display. It's just begging to
> >be dumped in a big bowl of pea soup.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> can buy little packets of chopped parsley anywhere on the
> main (and almost the only) street.

Lol, my daughter bought me home some cookies from Nimbin.
Family joke :) I have mentioned in here a while back that I
had a hypo in a friend's house - he said what can I get you?
I said anything sweet - Coke, juice, biscuits... He gave me
some "cookies" lol. That chopped parsley is good stuff!!
Alan S - 03 Mar 2006 11:46 GMT
>> >Look at that meat pie in the front of the display. It's
>just begging to
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>I said anything sweet - Coke, juice, biscuits... He gave me
>some "cookies" lol. That chopped parsley is good stuff!!

I remember when I first visited in '97. The bakery there
sold the normal range of baked goods and breads - plus the
"Aquarius Loaf".  Despite being twice the price of the other
loaves it was very popular:-)

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 2x500mg
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LizardQueen - 02 Mar 2006 20:57 GMT
For me the GI is just a guide, not gospel, but it's still a helluva lot
better than the "all carbs are created equal" premise as readings from
my meter indicate they are clearly NOT.

I do think that it could be expanded on - for me, the physical
structure of the food seems to have a huge impact. The larger and
harder the particle, the "slower" it is.  So it's not just the
material, it's the preparation of it as well.

I bet uncooked white rice would have a pretty low GI ;).

LQ
Susan - 02 Mar 2006 21:00 GMT
> For me the GI is just a guide, not gospel, but it's still a helluva lot
> better than the "all carbs are created equal" premise as readings from
> my meter indicate they are clearly NOT.

The problem with GI is that everyone's meter has a different reaction to
the same foods.  GL is a better concept, but I don't think it's reliable
either.

> I do think that it could be expanded on - for me, the physical
> structure of the food seems to have a huge impact. The larger and
> harder the particle, the "slower" it is.  So it's not just the
> material, it's the preparation of it as well.

Very good observation.  That's why whole kernel rye is so low, but rye
flour bread isn't.

Susan
Ozgirl - 02 Mar 2006 23:14 GMT
> For me the GI is just a guide, not gospel, but it's still a helluva lot
> better than the "all carbs are created equal" premise as readings from
> my meter indicate they are clearly NOT.

I agree. The strange this is, why are they suddenly picking
the GI to pieces when for as long as I can remember (here in
Oz) the good, better, best has been advocated re carb
exchanges. If 20 years ago they realised grain bread was
better than white bread for diabetics and porridge better
than cornflakes etc, why the sudden hoohah? The GI approach
has been around longer than the people who gave it all a
different name. I am not sure if the study is logical or
whether it's part of an agenda to slam the GI.
Roger Zoul - 04 Mar 2006 18:14 GMT
:: For me the GI is just a guide, not gospel, but it's still a helluva
:: lot better than the "all carbs are created equal" premise as
:: readings from my meter indicate they are clearly NOT.

GI may be a guide, but total carb count is the ultimate safe way to go
without playing with fire IF you're a T2.

:: I do think that it could be expanded on - for me, the physical
:: structure of the food seems to have a huge impact. The larger and
:: harder the particle, the "slower" it is.  So it's not just the
:: material, it's the preparation of it as well.

??  This sounds complicated.

:: I bet uncooked white rice would have a pretty low GI ;).

Really?
David - 02 Mar 2006 22:14 GMT
> http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/01/D8G2MOA00.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
>
> http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/01/D8G2MOA00.html

BS

dave
Ozgirl - 02 Mar 2006 23:17 GMT
"David" <David@invalid.com> wrote in message

> > The new study, published in the February issue of the British Journal
> > of Nutrition, relied on food questionnaires from more than 1,000 people
> > over five years and assessed their consumption of high- and
> > low-glycemic foods. Researchers tested their blood sugar levels twice
> > during the study period and found no significant correlation between
> > the glycemic index of foods and the blood-sugar levels of participants.

This is where they lost me. The study relied on food
questionnaires!!!! What a crock. Who funded such crap.
Alan S - 03 Mar 2006 02:32 GMT
>BS
>
>dave

Agreed

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 2x500mg
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