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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / February 2006T2 with MS
Anyone else here also have MS? Establishing the correct diet for both T2 and MS seems to be nearly an insurmountable task. Any advice out there? > Anyone else here also have MS? > > Establishing the correct diet for both T2 and MS seems to be nearly an > insurmountable task. Any advice out there? Sorry you have so much to deal with, medically. The diet that controls your bg should also reduce overall inflammation. Susan I am so sorry to hear this Frank. I dont know anyone in the group that has ms also but there might be. I hope someone can offer you some help. Loretta -- In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. Hi Frank. Both type 2 diabetes and multiple sclerosis have been linked to a bacterium called Chlamydophila (Chlamydia) pneumoniae (CPN). There is a website at http://www.cpnhelp.org that is dedicated to eradicating CPN infections. Most of the people using the site have ms. Good luck. Russ Farris http://www.potbellysyndrome.com > Anyone else here also have MS? > > Establishing the correct diet for both T2 and MS seems to be nearly an > insurmountable task. Any advice out there? > Hi Frank. Both type 2 diabetes and multiple sclerosis have been linked to a > bacterium called Chlamydophila (Chlamydia) pneumoniae (CPN). There is a > website at http://www.cpnhelp.org that is dedicated to eradicating CPN > infections. Most of the people using the site have ms. Good luck. Russ > Farris http://www.potbellysyndrome.com Sheer nonsense. --Jenny http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes Diabetes Info http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood Sugar Under Control >> Hi Frank. Both type 2 diabetes and multiple sclerosis have been linked >> to a [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood > Sugar Under Control OTOH, quite a few cases diagnosed as MS or ALS do turn out to be infectious. Many times, the infection(s) are tick borne and antibiotic treatment helps. I developed MS like symptoms years ago before my TBDs were treated adequately, severe enough that I hadn't the grip strength to open a laundry soap bottle, and my legs weren't reliable enough to take stairs. I have no such problems now, haven't for years. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > laundry soap bottle, and my legs weren't reliable enough to take stairs. > I have no such problems now, haven't for years. In the past they didn't have the diagnostic tools for diagnosis they have now and it was diagnosed by ruling things out. But that has changed with advanced brain imaging techniques. My friend, for example, got some brain studies that clearly showed the loss of the myelin. To tell her she can cure her problem with antibiotics would be a cruel hoax. And Interstitial Cystitis is most definitely not due to chlamydia or any other pathogen. I've been a dues-paying member of the Interstitial Cystitis Association for 20 years and get summaries of all the research on that condition. The bacterial/infective agent connection has been well researched. Treatment with a drug that targets chlamydia and ureaplama is a very good first line approach to urethritis of unknown origin or prostatitis, especially ones that won't culture, but if your symptoms respond to the drug, by definition, you DON'T have IC. And they do pretty comprehensive work ups for that now, too. (Which wasn't the case when I was misdiagnosed 20 years ago.) This site appears to have put all the miserable chronic incurable conditions together in one place and gives desperate people who have been diagnosed with them another false hope. In the case of diabetes, a chlamydial infection might raise blood sugars as will any infection but it doesn't CAUSE the diabetes and eliminating the infection will not remove the diabetes. --Jenny http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes Diabetes Info http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood Sugar Under Control > In the past they didn't have the diagnostic tools for diagnosis they > have now and it was diagnosed by ruling things out. But that has changed > with advanced brain imaging techniques. My friend, for example, got some > brain studies that clearly showed the loss of the myelin. To tell her > she can cure her problem with antibiotics would be a cruel hoax. It's not in the past at all, Jenny. Neuroborreliosis can cause identical findings to MS. This occurred in in the NIH intramural chronic Lyme study using sophisticated MRI. Antibiotics reversed the apparent MS lesions and sx in one participant I personally know who refused steroids for presumed MS. The fact is that there are no definitive tests for either. I did not suggest cure, BTW. I haven't been able to cure my chronic TB infections. Diagnsosis and treatment doesn't equal cure. > And Interstitial Cystitis is most definitely not due to chlamydia or any > other pathogen. I've been a dues-paying member of the Interstitial [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > do pretty comprehensive work ups for that now, too. (Which wasn't the > case when I was misdiagnosed 20 years ago.) I don't believe I addressed IC. > This site appears to have put all the miserable chronic incurable > conditions together in one place and gives desperate people who have > been diagnosed with them another false hope. I wasn't endorsing the site, just observing that often, diagnoses are made due to rule process out when, in fact, there are no criteria or tests that can make the case to do so. I happen to have decades of experience with tick borne diseases and had to research it the way you've researched diabetes due to my child's yearslong undiagnosed illness, and my own. My child was cured with an empiric trial of Mepron/Zithromax for an infection that no test picked up, despite presence of all the symptoms. > In the case of diabetes, a chlamydial infection might raise blood sugars > as will any infection but it doesn't CAUSE the diabetes and eliminating > the infection will not remove the diabetes. Jenny, I have no opinion about chlamyidia. I merely stated that there are many cases of chronic CNS diseases that turn out to be infectious. The most ubiquitous source of such infections is tick exposure. Sometimes MS and ALS like sx turn out to be TBD. BTDT, bought the lousy T shirt, been paying for it for decades. Susan > I don't believe I addressed IC. But the site did, suggesting that chlamydia was the cause of IC and a related disorder, chronic prostatitis. But what I'm responding to in the site is this statement: "...started by patients who are undergoing antibiotic treatment for diseases where Cpn has been implicated, including: Multiple sclerosis, Chronic fatigue, Cardiac disease, Interstitial cystitis, Prostatitis, Crohn's disease, Inflammatory bowel disease Alzheimer's disease, Asthma, Arthritis, Fibromyalgia, Chronic refractory sinusitis, Macular Degeneration, and others." There is nothing saying "Possibly MISDIAGNOSED with ...." instead the antibiotic is held out as a cure for the list of some of the most relentless, depressing, painful, incurable diseases people can get. As someone who was misdiagnosed with IC, and suffered years of unnecessary pain and misery, I always tell people with urethritis that won't culture who have been told they have IC to find a doctor who will give them trials of antibiotics because they MAY have been misdiagnosed. But to suggest that people who validly have these diagnoses can be cured by antibiotics seems cruel. I happen to have decades of > experience with tick borne diseases and had to research it the way > you've researched diabetes due to my child's yearslong undiagnosed > illness, and my own. My child was cured with an empiric trial of > Mepron/Zithromax for an infection that no test picked up, despite > presence of all the symptoms. Glad your kid was cured. The tick borne diseases are a nightmare, and one I've read about a lot. My mom ended up in a wheelchair for a while because of Lyme Disease (she lived in an area where it was endemic) and it was she who noticed my bullseye rash and got me to get the antibiotics before I developed more permanent symptoms. I wouldn't minimize the impact of any of them. But as far as I've been able to tell, Chlamydia is not tick borne. --Jenny http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes Diabetes Info http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood Sugar Under Control >> I don't believe I addressed IC. > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > But to suggest that people who validly have these diagnoses can be cured > by antibiotics seems cruel. Okay, we seem to be having two separate, tangential conversations. I agree that the web site was crap. I was only addressing the infectious connection to various neurological and presumed autoimmune diseases. > Glad your kid was cured. YEAH, if it had to be one of us... it was after 3 1/2 years of hell, and a lot of missed and wrong diagnoses. >The tick borne diseases are a nightmare, and > one I've read about a lot. My mom ended up in a wheelchair for a while > because of Lyme Disease (she lived in an area where it was endemic) and > it was she who noticed my bullseye rash and got me to get the > antibiotics before I developed more permanent symptoms. I wouldn't > minimize the impact of any of them. But as far as I've been able to > tell, Chlamydia is not tick borne. It's endemic everywhere in the lower 48 states, some more than others, but stats are skewed by the fact that docs don't diagnose what they're told doesn't happen here. They diagnose FMS, CFS, MS, ALS, instead, too often. You're lucky there *was* a rash; most folks never see a tick or a rash, and almost no one knows that the bullseye is the least common rash in cases of infection with Lyme. During the vaccine trials, that was discovered, yet hasn't made public awareness. There were vesicles in clusters, streaks, rectangles, all different colors and types of rashes that cultured + for B.b during the trials, the least common the bullseye. And no clinically reliable diagnostic tests. Susan > It's endemic everywhere in the lower 48 states, some more than others, > but stats are skewed by the fact that docs don't diagnose what they're > told doesn't happen here. They diagnose FMS, CFS, MS, ALS, instead, too > often. Well, my mom lived in one of the very first places that Lyme was identified in the early 80s and where it was in the news all the time. She tested positive on the titre test. Deer used to wander right through the high grass near her clothesline, so it was clear where she got it. I probably got mine from deer that wandered through the back field where my kids used to fly kites. For me it manifested as intense back pain which would not get better and only resolved after the antibiotic treatment. I often wonder if my subsequent disc rupture had anything to do with that, though disc ruptures do run in my father's family, so it might not.  Signature--Jenny http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes Diabetes Info http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood Sugar Under Control > Well, my mom lived in one of the very first places that Lyme was > identified in the early 80s and where it was in the news all the time. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > do with that, though disc ruptures do run in my father's family, so it > might not. IIRC, I've seen abstracts about disc damage with Lyme, as well as tendon problems. There is no part of the body or CNS that is safe from it, and the illness manifests in each person in a different way. It's more common than not to get multiple infections from a single tick bite, so the variation in manifestations can be due to host immunity or to disease mix. I tested positive for 3 different TBDs at one point, after I'd been ill for years, and even after years of antibiotic treatment. The CDC approved protocol didn't diagnose any of my infections. Susan >Okay, we seem to be having two separate, tangential conversations. I >agree that the web site was crap. I was only addressing the infectious >connection to various neurological and presumed autoimmune diseases. I responded before seeing that. Unfortunately, people out to promote their "discoveries" will take their support where they can find it, and edit out the niceties. If Jenny found it ambiguous, others may, particularly if you are selectively quoted. We see them so often here - a new or sporadic poster with an "I've found the secret" book or theory. Some are kooks - ironjustice, Rich Murray etc, and some are after the cash like the MLMers for diabeticine etc. All will take any support you offer and then quote you elsewhere if you give them half a chance. Russell may have some intelligent things to add to our conversations, but it's all tainted by his basic premises. The only reason he's not in my kf is the need to be aware of what he's saying to newbies. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 2x500mg SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. > I responded before seeing that. I responded before I saw this. :-) Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Susan Thanks for your efforts. I reviewed the bacterial information around the web. It seems somewhat plausible, but there is nothing definitive. I found a pretty good MS diet site at http://www.msrc.co.uk but it appears to run somewhat counter to what I've learned about T2 diets. It looks like this is going to be a "challenge" if I want to deal with both of these little problems. >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >Susan Have you read his pot-belly site Susan? Do that, then think about whether you want to continue implied support for his hypothesis. This bacterium drivel appears to be the basis for his entire book. At the risk of advertising his nonsense, this is the intro: "There is growing evidence that obesity, type 2 diabetes, and heart disease are all caused by germs, not by our bad habits. In The Potbelly Syndrome, Dr. Mårin and I explain: * How common, slow-acting germs trigger the release of a stress hormone called cortisol. * How the extra cortisol gradually causes obesity, hypertension, and type 2 diabetes--the main symptoms of "potbelly syndrome" (PBS). * Why we feel tired and achy for years as the germs slowly spread through our bodies. * How some of the same germs that cause PBS also cause heart disease (that's why PBS and heart disease are usually found together). * How you and your doctor can fight back against the germs that cause PBS and heart disease." I think Jenny's answer was succinct and accurate. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 2x500mg SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. > Have you read his pot-belly site Susan? > Do that, then think about whether you want to continue > implied support for his hypothesis. This bacterium drivel > appears to be the basis for his entire book. Alan, you're confused. I never supported his hypothesis. Susan > Anyone else here also have MS? > > Establishing the correct diet for both T2 and MS seems to be nearly an > insurmountable task. Any advice out there? Frank, So sorry to hear you have to deal with two such overwhelming disorders! I have a dear friend who was diagnosed with MS some years ago, and since she knows I like to do research about medical conditions, she had me do some research for her. What I found was that diet plays little or no role in the control of MS and that most of the dietary recommendations for MS are speculative rather than borne out with research. The truth seems to be that MS is a very difficult disease where there isn't all that much you can do to influence the outcome and your best hope lies in new drug treatments. In contrast, there's very clear evidence that diet can have a huge, positive impact on controlling type 2 diabetes. This is one of the few diseases where the results of dietary control can be shown in research study after research study. So it seems to me that if you have to deal with both disorders, it would make the most sense to adopt the diet which controls the disease you can control--the diabetes. It's also pretty clear that if you don't control the diabetes very tightly you mess up your nerves in ways that could easily be confused with MS. And more attacks on the nerves seem like the last thing you need. So again, keeping blood sugars in normal range to avoid further nerve damage seems like something you really want to do for yourself. I've documented the blood sugar relationship to nerve damage on my web site below (on the page titled "Research Connecting Organ Damage with Blood Sugar Level") Good luck!!!!!! --Jenny http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes Diabetes Info http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood Sugar Under Control >> Anyone else here also have MS? >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >that much you can do to influence the outcome and your best hope lies in >new drug treatments. My son was diagnosed with MS last summer so I've spent a fair bit of time researching the possible effect of diet on the progress of MS and discussed it at length with my cousin who is a neurologist who specializes in MS treatment. Although diet may play a role, research is very difficult because the progress of MS is so unpredictible. In some patients the disease progresses rapidly in others there may be a period of 10 years of remission before the next attack. Unless you are doing a very carefully controlled experiment with hundreds or even thousands of patients you can never be sure whether the effects you see are the result of your treatment or the natural variation in the progress of the disease. As a result, experiments are costly and are only done when there is a significant monetary incentive - like the licensing of a new drug. In many ways T2 is much easier to deal with. You can use your trusty meter to telly you immediately what effects that last meal you ate is having on your BG and modify your diet accordingly. With MS you can follow a strict dietary regime and find that you go 2 years between episodes. However, you will never know if you had made a change you might have gone 5 years between episodes. Terribly frustrating. Luckily my son hasn't had a serious episode since last summer and is symptom free at this point. He's seen the specialists ot our provincial MS clinic but so far he isn't taking any of the new expensive medications ($16,000 - $80,000/yr). As a young verile male who works on construction, he good at denial. >In contrast, there's very clear evidence that diet can have a huge, >positive impact on controlling type 2 diabetes. This is one of the few [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >make the most sense to adopt the diet which controls the disease you can >control--the diabetes. I agree with Jenifer. A low-carb approach that controls your BG levels is the best way to go. It probably will not have any negative effect on your MS and may well have a positive one. Good luck! Gerry Diagnosed as Type 2 in December, 2004 Controlled through diet and exercise Latest H1AC 5.9 > I agree with Jenifer. A low-carb approach that controls your BG levels > is the best way to go. It probably will not have any negative effect > on your MS and may well have a positive one. Just want to point out that "Jennifer" is the name used by another, very helpful, regular on this newsgroup. The person,(Me) who posts under the name "Jenny" is a different person. The confusion is understandable. --Jenny http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes Diabetes Info http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood Sugar Under Control >Just want to point out that "Jennifer" is the name used by another, very >helpful, regular on this newsgroup. The person,(Me) who posts under the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >--Jenny Maybe one of you should post as Guinevere? Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 2x500mg SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. >>Just want to point out that "Jennifer" is the name used by another, very >>helpful, regular on this newsgroup. The person,(Me) who posts under the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Maybe one of you should post as Guinevere? Only if you post as "Arthur" . <G> --Jenny http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes Diabetes Info http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood Sugar Under Control |
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