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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / February 2006Bloodwork Results
Hello everyone, I just got my bloodwork results. There was good news and not so good.... The good was that the a1c is still 5.6. :-) The bad was that the total cholesterol was back up to 206.... Gotta bring that down. :-( LDL was 127, and HDL was 57.  Signature":Souffrons, mais souffrons sur les cimes." -If we must suffer, let us suffer nobly.- Victor Hugo (1802-1885) Then, again, the sentiment of the Victor Hugo quote might also be stated, "Si nous devons souffrir, permettez-nous de souffrir noblement." But then, it would not be Victor Hugo. The point, I think, is that we just have to keep at it and not let down our guard, and at the same time, we must continue to live our lives with all the dignity and quality of which we are capable.... That is our real challenge as diabetics. Have a great day, everyone! Will, T2 > Hello everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that down. :-( > LDL was 127, and HDL was 57. My doctor and I were very happy with TC of 226, since my ratios were good. Your HDL/TC ratio isn't bad, either. You don't mention triglycerides, which are a very important measure in terms of IR and CVD risk prediction. Not much bad news, Will. Susan > You don't mention > triglycerides, which are a very important measure in terms of IR and CVD > risk prediction. HI Susan, Thanks for the encouragement... :-) I was so bummed at going back up with the Total Cholesterol, that I forgot to even ask George, my doctor, about the triglycerides. I have to call him back. Will, T2 >>You don't mention >>triglycerides, which are a very important measure in terms of IR and CVD [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Will, T2 Thing is, if your total went up due to an elevation in HDL, that would be a good sign. If your TGLs are low and your ratio of TGL/HDL is good, that would indicate that your LDL is more likely the non oxidizing/damaging kind. There's still improvement to be made in your HbA1c, but I don't know how long you've been controlling carbs or what meds or supplements you've taken or for how long. Susan You make very good points, Susan.... I started on Avandamet a year ago, with near disastrous results for my eyes. I switched to Metformin (500mg x2 daily) last May, and have been doing well on it, ever since. I am not taking much right now, in the way of supplements, except a little B complex and folic acid.... I have been watching carbs seriously since May, 2005. Also, I lost 50 lbs last year, after being diagnosed. Now, I weigh about 180. Will, T2 Signature"One should never put on one's best trousers to go out to battle for freedom and truth." -- HENRIK IBSEN-- (1828-1906) "Health consists of having the same diseases as one's neighbors." -- Quentin Crisp--- > You make very good points, Susan.... I started on Avandamet a year ago, with > near disastrous results for my eyes. I switched to Metformin (500mg x2 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Will, T2 WOW. You're making incredible progress. If your doctor agrees, it might be worth trying to increase your metformin to 1500 per day. It took five months to fully kick in for me, but it knocked my TGLs down from 126 to 95. Fish oil supplementatin lowers TGLs, too, or a diet high in oily fish. Your ratios, as presented by Al, indicate below average CVD risk. :-) Susan wmmckee@cox.net wrote in message ... >> You don't mention >> triglycerides, which are a very important measure in terms of IR and CVD [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Will, T2 Most of the time, they don't really assay LDL. They do "Total", HDL and triglycerides then bring them all together with the formula: Total Cholesterol = LDL + HDL + Triglycerides/5 IOW, your trigs ought to be about 115. Your critical ratios look good: Trig/HDL < 3, you = 2.0 LDL/ HDL < 3, you = 2.2 Total/HDL < 4, you = 3.6 An HDL of 57 is high for a guy. You're doing something right. Keep on doing it. Regards Old Al > Hello everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that down. :-( > LDL was 127, and HDL was 57. Hey, 2 out of 3 ain't bad. ;-) SignatureJoe W T2 Nov '05 30mg Actos, 3gr(1/2 tsp or 500mg pill) Cinnamon, Diet(>100 carbs) & 30 minute walk(everyday) & BowFlex 3x/week *****Diabetes, be proactive, not reactive.***** >Hello everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >that down. :-( >LDL was 127, and HDL was 57. Are you on a statin? My new GP says LDL should be <= 70 for us diabetics, mine was 79. I'm on 20 mg Lovastatin. How does your kidneys look? Every time I see a GP I have him check cholesterol, kidneys, and A1c. Very important. I hope you are keeping track of all these numbers. _____________________________________________ http://www.healthdiabeticsoftware.com/ Free Hi Will, As others have pointed out you do have good numbers. But the story of Cholesterol is far more controversial due to all the recent research. As far as I am concern I will take Vitamin D along with doing what ever I can to keen my numbers above safety. Being a Vegan its a bit easier I guess although I am not convinced that less cholesterol in diet reflects it in the blood. Compound the facts with what the big pharmas want to sell by raising big warnings one really needs to look at the deeper issues. Alan S had posted an excellent reference here about size of LDL molecule (indirectly seen by Trig/HDL ratio) was another risk predictor! Anyway here is another link that supports the Vitamin D theory! http://drcranton.com/Cholesterol_myth.htm Anil Dx: July 2005, Total Ch 181/ LDL 110 / HDL 55 / Trig 80 HbA1C 5.7/ weight 165/ Height 5'11" Total Veg except milk in Tea! >Hi Will, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >http://drcranton.com/Cholesterol_myth.htm Dr Cranton is a quack of the top echelon. Click on the Topics button to see a list of frauds and quackeries. The top one, and the subject of his best-selling book is an untested method of preventing people with arterial plaques from getting proper treatment. He also does the hyperbaric oxygen and mercury removal frauds. This is a man who never saw someone else's wallet without coveting its contents. >Anil >Dx: July 2005, >Total Ch 181/ LDL 110 / HDL 55 / Trig 80 >HbA1C 5.7/ weight 165/ Height 5'11" Total Veg except milk in Tea! SignaturePeter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com Gee Will, I don't really see much bad news there at all. It's the ratios that count, and an HDL of 57 in a man is pretty awesome. A lot of guys' HDLs run in the 30's, and even those who take meds to improve their ratios seldom get an HDL that high. I know many who would be very envious of yours. It's evident to me that you're doing things right. :-) And I'll second Susan's praises of fish oil. My mother's triglycerides have a tendency to be a little high, but if she takes fish oil, the number is much improved. Fish oil capsules, along with a fishy diet (like 3 times per week) is a staple in our household. Michelle > And I'll second Susan's praises of fish oil. My mother's triglycerides > have a tendency to be a little high, but if she takes fish oil, the > number is much improved. Fish oil capsules, along with a fishy diet > (like 3 times per week) is a staple in our household. Thanks for the support, Michelle. And a big "thank you" also goes out to Al, Joe, Bruce, Susan, and all the rest of you wonderful people! :-) ... Off and on, I have taken either fish oil, or flax seed oil.... I just hate taking so many pills, though. Since I live by the seaside, so to speak, there is always plenty of fresh fish around. So, we normally have seafood at least 2-3 times a week. I am also a big salad eater, and I like antipasto salads, as well.... Mostly in the seafood department, I have a lot of salmon, flounder, and occasionally some crab and shrimp. Maybe the seafood has made a positive difference. I understand shrimp can be bad for cholesterol, though, and I also enjoy some cheese, every now and then, so that could be part of the explanation of the increase in the total cholesterol... Will, T2 >>And I'll second Susan's praises of fish oil. My mother's triglycerides >>have a tendency to be a little high, but if she takes fish oil, the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Will, T2 Shrimp is almost pure protein and no fat. It has cholesterol, but the cholesterol you eat isn't what does damage, that's caused by the cholesterol your metabolism produces when you don't take steps to correct your IR. Susan >> And I'll second Susan's praises of fish oil. My mother's triglycerides >> have a tendency to be a little high, but if she takes fish oil, the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Will, T2 Fried shrimp can most certainly be bad for you... (As if you didn't know) Sleepy ------------------------------------------------------------------ It is easier to make a saint out of a libertine than out of a prig. -George Santayana (1863-1952) ------------------------------------------------------------------ On 24-Feb-2006, Ronetta@webtv.net (Loretta Eisenberg) wrote: > Amy, as soon as I can find a deli, I will think of you. It is a dying > trade. They were practically in every corner when I was a kid. I have > nathans, but it isnt the same as a kosher deli. The nearest one is > about two miles away. I go there when I get my hair done. You are so right, Sleepy. That's why I usually have steamed shrimp! Will, T2 >Fried shrimp can most certainly be bad for you... (As if you didn't >know) Not when I deep-fry it, in a light beer batter in peanut oil. I think I just decided what's for dinner - thanks Sleepy. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. d&e, metformin 2x500mg SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. >>Fried shrimp can most certainly be bad for you... (As if you didn't >>know) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. >d&e, metformin 2x500mg Enjoy! I bought a microwave popcorn popper that can be used either with, or without oil. I have been using peanut oil to pop with. Gives it a little different flavor. Sleepy ------------------------------------------------------------------ It is easier to make a saint out of a libertine than out of a prig. -George Santayana (1863-1952) ------------------------------------------------------------------ >Gee Will, I don't really see much bad news there at all. It's the >ratios that count, and an HDL of 57 in a man is pretty awesome. A lot [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Michelle Agreed on the fish oil Michelle. See I'm not against *all* supplements! Niacin can help too... Sleepy ------------------------------------------------------------------ It is easier to make a saint out of a libertine than out of a prig. -George Santayana (1863-1952) ------------------------------------------------------------------ >Agreed on the fish oil Michelle. See I'm not against *all* >supplements! Niacin can help too... >Sleepy :-) :-) Agreed on the niacin too. Michelle >>Agreed on the fish oil Michelle. See I'm not against *all* >>supplements! Niacin can help too... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Agreed on the niacin too. > Michelle Niacin, unfortunately, elevates blood glucose. I stopped being able to take it years ago for that reason. Susan >Niacin, unfortunately, elevates blood glucose. I stopped being able to >take it years ago for that reason. >Susan How interesting. I wonder what the mechanism behind that effect is. I used to take niacin for allergies, striving for the famous niacin flush. The niacin flush is caused by a histamine reaction. If I could get the flush and use great gobs of histamine at one time, my allergies were better for a day or two. Eventually, I found the flush too harsh to continue this and of course, it wasn't really "recommended". Michelle > How interesting. I wonder what the mechanism behind that effect is. > > I used to take niacin for allergies, striving for the famous niacin > flush. The niacin flush is caused by a histamine reaction. I used to take 6 grams at a time for the flush, which wears off as your body gets used to it. Great sleep inducer. > If I could > get the flush and use great gobs of histamine at one time, my allergies > were better for a day or two. Eventually, I found the flush too harsh > to continue this and of course, it wasn't really "recommended". I loved the flush, felt very cleansing or something. I can't say I noticed whether it improved my allergies. Your flush didn't wear off in time? Susan >I used to take 6 grams at a time for the flush, which wears off as your >body gets used to it. Great sleep inducer. Agreed! >I loved the flush, felt very cleansing or something. I can't say I >noticed whether it improved my allergies. Your flush didn't wear off in >time? I didn't take the niacin long enough for the flush to wear off. I had one particularly bad, itchy episode--red and itchy from head to toe--that was rather uncomfortable and slightly scary, so I quit. Michelle > >Niacin, unfortunately, elevates blood glucose. I stopped being able to >>take it years ago for that reason. > >>Susan Susan, do you happen to have any citations on the niacin = elevated bg effect? I'm curious.... When I insisted I cease taking Lovastatin, my doc put me on Niacin, 500mg x 4. I use a "flush-free" type, Inositol Hexaniacinate. My lipids aren't as good but still low risk. I didn't notice any changes in my fbg or pp numbers, however (fbg now in the 90's) I added Pantethine to improve lipids but haven't had a test since. Peter G. I've experienced that niacin rush........ can't see how anyone could enjoy it. :)) > Susan, do you happen to have any citations on the niacin = elevated bg > effect? I'm curious.... You can just google it up; it's a completely well accepted and documented phenomenon. > When I insisted I cease taking Lovastatin, my doc put me on Niacin, 500mg x > 4. I use a "flush-free" type, Inositol Hexaniacinate. My lipids aren't as > good but still low risk. I didn't notice any changes in my fbg or pp > numbers, however (fbg now in the 90's) I added Pantethine to improve lipids > but haven't had a test since. I hope your pantethine is liquid capsules and not tablets? The tablet one I bought didn't work at all. I tried to flush them yesterday, and they took hours to dissolve in the toilet. Susan > x-no-archive: yes <<snip>> > I hope your pantethine is liquid capsules and not tablets? The tablet one > I bought didn't work at all. I tried to flush them yesterday, and they > took hours to dissolve in the toilet. > > Susan Yes, I have the "Softgel" form. What I'm still in doubt about is the dose. I take 300mg x 2. I've read other sources say to take up to 1500mg/da total. I guess this is another YMMV thing... PG > Yes, I have the "Softgel" form. What I'm still in doubt about is the dose. I > take 300mg x 2. I've read other sources say to take up to 1500mg/da total. I > guess this is another YMMV thing... The studies(and I, with dramatic results) used 450 mg twice per day. Some used 300mg 3X per day. I guess 900 mg per day is the consensus dose. Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Susan That is a rather generalized statement don't you think Susan? Niacin raised *your* bg. It didn't raise mine. Sleepy ------------------------------------------------------------------ It is easier to make a saint out of a libertine than out of a prig. -George Santayana (1863-1952) ------------------------------------------------------------------ > >x-no-archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > That is a rather generalized statement don't you think Susan? Niacin > raised *your* bg. It didn't raise mine. how dare you question the great and wonderful susan who knows everything! she thinks EVERYONE is exactly like her and should do what SHE does. be prepared for some study report that will be harder to understand than the dead sea scrolls as her proof. lol Sally > That is a rather generalized statement don't you think Susan? Niacin > raised *your* bg. It didn't raise mine. Look it up. Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Susan Why should I? A) I didn't make the clain and B) I have no bg increase on it. Sleepy ------------------------------------------------------------------ It is easier to make a saint out of a libertine than out of a prig. -George Santayana (1863-1952) ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Why should I? Because you objected to the statement, but presented no evidence. It's very hard to avoid finding it if you care to be informed, rather than to merely bark at the fence. > A) I didn't make the clain You did make a recommendation of niacin without, apparently, informing yourself that it elevates blood glucose. I didn't make a "claim," I quoted the scienctific literature about a fact very commonly known to anyone who's looked into niacin. > and > B) I have no bg increase on it. Your personal anecdote is no basis to make a supplement recommendation without knowledge and citations to back up its safety. Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Susan I gotta go with Sleepyman on this one. It's at least in the YMMV category. As for a cite, here's one. It mostly deals with cholesterol but it mentions improvements in HBA1C as well. NIACIN TREATS DIABETES AND CHOLESTEROL Gabe Mirkin, M.D. A recent study in the medical journal, Diabetes, Obesity and Metabolism shows that niacin, one of the B vitamins, can treat most abnormalities in cholesterol associated with diabetes. Diabetics not only have high blood levels of sugar, they also often have high blood levels of the bad LDL, triglycerides and Lp(a); and low levels of the good HDL cholesterol. In this study, 80 percent of the patients who took the niacin had a lowering of the small, dense LDL particle that cause heart attacks and a raising of blood levels of the exceptionally good, HDL2 that prevents heart attacks. Niacin also lowers blood levels of the bad clotting factor, Lp(a) and the fatty triglycerides, that cause heart attacks. The most important test to measure diabetic control is called HBA1C, and it improved significantly during treatment with niacin. Twenty-one percent of the patients were unable to tolerate niacin. Niacin treatment of the atherogenic lipid profile and Lp(A) in diabetes. Diabetes Obesity & Metabolism, 2002, Vol 4, Iss 4, pp 255-261. J Pan, M Lin, RL Kesala, J Van, MA Charles. Charles MA, 2492 Walnut Ave, Suite 130, Tustin,CA 92780 USA >>x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > 255-261. J Pan, M Lin, RL Kesala, J Van, MA Charles. Charles MA, 2492 > Walnut Ave, Suite 130, Tustin,CA 92780 USA You can choose up sides if you like. But the irony of Sleepy, of all folks, recommending a supplement without the proviso that it's known to elevate blood glucose, is truly rich. Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > >Susan It is not proven that it raises blood glucose. That is your unsubstantiated claim. Sleepy ------------------------------------------------------------------ It is easier to make a saint out of a libertine than out of a prig. -George Santayana (1863-1952) ------------------------------------------------------------------ >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >very hard to avoid finding it if you care to be informed, rather than to >merely bark at the fence. You made a general statement. We have covered this same question in previous threads. Your reaction was by no means universal, and IIRC a distinct minority one. >> A) I didn't make the clain > >You did make a recommendation of niacin without, apparently, informing >yourself that it elevates blood glucose. I didn't make any claim one way or the other concerning glucose. You did. >I didn't make a "claim," I quoted the scienctific literature about a >fact very commonly known to anyone who's looked into niacin. It is not a fact, and not commonly known because of that. You are dealing in generalities again Susan. >> and >> B) I have no bg increase on it. > >Your personal anecdote is no basis to make a supplement recommendation >without knowledge and citations to back up its safety. Niacin (Niaspan in my case) is prescribed for lipid control is it not? That is what I referred to. You jumped in with your size 12s with a claim of a causal effect between niacin and glucose increase. When I called you on it, you are the one who told me to look it up. My response strands. Sleepy ------------------------------------------------------------------ It is easier to make a saint out of a libertine than out of a prig. -George Santayana (1863-1952) ------------------------------------------------------------------ > >x-no-archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Sleepy Sleepy, niacin doesn't raise my bgs at all either. But it's usually a no win situation when you're dealing with Susan. That's two of us...so whatever "study" she's bragging about is not absolute, is it. :) Best, Kurt > > >x-no-archive: yes > > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > no win situation when you're dealing with Susan. That's two of us...so > whatever "study" she's bragging about is not absolute, is it. :) http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/284/10/1263 (need subscription - I will only post a few parts). Effect of Niacin on Lipid and Lipoprotein Levels and Glycemic Control in Patients With Diabetes and Peripheral Arterial Disease "Glucose levels were modestly increased by niacin (8.7 and 6.3 mg/dL [0.4 and 0.3 mmol/L]; P = .04 and P<.001) in participants with and without diabetes, respectively." "Fasting blood glucose levels were monitored at 6-week intervals throughout the follow-up period. If the fasting blood glucose level was higher than 189 mg/dL (10.5 mmol/L), the HbA1c level was then measured, and if this was higher than 10.0%, the dosage of niacin (or its placebo) was down-titrated. Niacin down-titration was also performed if any routine HbA1c level (measured at study weeks 6, 24, and 48) was higher than 10.0%." "Effect of Niacin on Glycemic Status and Safety Parameters Fasting glucose and HbA1c levels were monitored as indices of glycemic status during niacin treatment. Table 3 presents the glucose, HbA1c, and uric acid levels at baseline and the average of 6 postrandomization values. Niacin use resulted in a small but statistically significant increase in average glucose levels in participants both with (8.1 mg/dL [0.4 mmol/L]) and without diabetes (6.3 mg/dL [0.3 mmol/L]; P = .04 and P<.001, respectively). The effect of niacin on glucose was greater in participants with diabetes than without (P = .04)." This study was conducted to determine the efficacy and safety of lipid-modifying dosages of niacin in patients with diabetes because "current guidelines do not recommend use of niacin in patients with diabetes because of concerns about adverse effects on glycemic control; however, this is based on limited clinical data." "Conclusions Our study suggests that lipid-modifying dosages of niacin can be safely used in patients with diabetes and that niacin therapy may be considered as an alternative to statin drugs or fibrates for patients with diabetes in whom these agents are not tolerated or fail to sufficiently correct hypertriglyceridemia or low HDL-C levels." So whilst the study does show that niacin elevates bg's, for most people it may not be significant. I think Susan just needed to add a YMMV tag on her statement. Once again this study seems to show averages rises which always skews results as far as I am concerned. If one person has a significant rise and another a small rise it doesn't give a true picture. Some people may weigh up the benefit of lipid lowering against a bg rise and choose to continue. Others may not. A significant thing was that the diabetic group had a very significant rise of bg at week 18 when the dose had it's final titration upwards (to 3,000mg). By week 24 bg's dropped dramatically (lower than their baseline) then went up again. By week 48 (the end of the study) the fasting bg's were back to where they started. Perhaps those with a bg elevation effect could try weathering the rise for 6 weeks to see if there is a change. > > > On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:17:21 -0500, Susan > <nevermind@nomail.com> [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > bg elevation effect could try weathering the rise for 6 > weeks to see if there is a change. This is the way studies should be posted IMHO - the technical information followed by a summary from a layperson's POV. That way we understand where the person is coming from in relation to WHY they posted the study and a summarization of how they viewed the results...in plain language, without the condescending attitude, that all can understand. Thanks for doing this, Ozgirl. Best, Kurt Susan, I'm glad the subject of Niacin came up. My search substantiates your position that Niacin can raise bg and/or fbg in many people. Four scholarly sources all agree that this effect is very much a YMMV thing. Lucky me, I seem generally immune to this side effect. I learned a lot more about B vitamins in general and that there are side benefits beyond the lipid improvements. It improves osteoarthritis in many. It helps reduce depression. It can help reduce inflammation. and other lesser benefits The down side? In therapeutic dosages (>1.5g divided over the day) it can be hard on the liver. Then there is the famous Niacin flush. Inositol Hexaniacinate can reduce both side effects. You absolutely need to discuss this approach with your doctor. I also discovered that high dose Niacin is antagonistic to chloestyramine, something my doctor prescribed that I tolerate poorly. Hmm, I wonder.......... why didn't she tell me about that? Peter G. > Susan, > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Peter G. As compared to pantethine lipid lowering and anti inflammatory properties, and pantethine's potential to restore hepatic function in some studies, and no side effects, niacin hasn't nearly as good a risk/benefit ratio, especially given its potential for hepatic damage. Your body, your science experiment. :-) Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >Susan While I have read many a good thing about pantethine, it is still an unregulated diet supplement. Until there are some "real" studies done on Pantethine, I will continue to take my prescription Niaspan BTW. I think Old Al is one of the many that take straight Niacin as there is an insurance conflict. Any substance can have a "potential" to damage organs. but I don't see you in here telling the wine drinkers they shouldn't indulge "given its potential for hepatic damage". Sleepy ------------------------------------------------------------------ It is easier to make a saint out of a libertine than out of a prig. -George Santayana (1863-1952) ------------------------------------------------------------------ > While I have read many a good thing about pantethine, it is still an > unregulated diet supplement. Until there are some "real" studies done > on Pantethine, I will continue to take my prescription Niaspan Are you saying that studies are only real if they are conducted in the U.S.? BTW. I > think Old Al is one of the many that take straight Niacin as there is > an insurance conflict. Any substance can have a "potential" to damage > organs. Off the point. You did what you constantely attack me for. You recommended a supplement without knowing its risks or safety and potential to harm diabetics. Pantethine has actually been found to improve hepatic function, in vitro. It never harms it, unlike Niacin. but I don't see you in here telling the wine drinkers they > shouldn't indulge "given its potential for hepatic damage". Off the point. I can respect those who admit their mistakes. Not those who can't/won't. We all make them; not owning them is what's not right. Susan >> > > On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:17:21 -0500, Susan >> <nevermind@nomail.com> [quoted text clipped - 99 lines] >Best, >Kurt I agree all the way. I sometimes (often?) get so caught up in the nomenclature that by the time I finish reading a study, I can't see the forest for the trees. Also anything scientific is not my cuppa tea. Sleepy ------------------------------------------------------------------ It is easier to make a saint out of a libertine than out of a prig. -George Santayana (1863-1952) ------------------------------------------------------------------ > So whilst the study does show that niacin elevates bg's, for > most people it may not be significant. I think Susan just [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > bg elevation effect could try weathering the rise for 6 > weeks to see if there is a change. There is so much evidence for the bg elevating properties of niacin that there is a company spending $$$ for trials to produce a form that doesn't raise bg. Dosage is a big issue here; it takes a high doses to get lipid benefits. I did not claim that niacin would raise bg to unacceptable levels in everyone taking it, but pointed out that it has this property. I would think the President of the No Supplements Club would've wanted to use YMMV and a proviso in giving it his endorsement. Susan >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >Susan I have stated many times that I take 4 supplements a day. I don't have a supplement orgy every day like some here. If anyone should have had a YMMV after a statement, it is you. You made the blanket statement.I said Niacin "can" help. Not that it "causes" anything. You may want to continue this thread so you can get the last word. Go right ahead, I think we have covered all there is to cover. Sleepy ------------------------------------------------------------------ It is easier to make a saint out of a libertine than out of a prig. -George Santayana (1863-1952) ------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/284/10/1263 > > > Effect of Niacin on Lipid and Lipoprotein Levels and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > any routine HbA1c level (measured at study weeks 6, 24, and > 48) was higher than 10.0%." I can't help wondering what else they were doing to help the patients get their fbg &/or A1c down. Were they that high before the trial? > "Conclusions Our study suggests that lipid-modifying > dosages of niacin can be safely used in patients with [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > sufficiently correct hypertriglyceridemia or low HDL-C > levels." I guess at the 189/10% level, a few more points don't matter all that much. ?? bj >> > On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:17:21 -0500, Susan ><nevermind@nomail.com> [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] >bg elevation effect could try weathering the rise for 6 >weeks to see if there is a change. All I said to her that her statement was a generalized one. 3000mg is a huge dose also. I don't subscribe to JAMA, but would like to know how many people were studied, and if they remained on a dosage of 3,000mgs.The participants also averaged an A1c of 8.1. I also wonder if this high an A1c was a factor also. I take 2000mg of Niaspan, the max recommended dose, myself. I don't know if there would be a greater recommended dose for strait niacin as opposed to Niaspan (time released to avoid the flush) but I would tend to doubt it. Thanks for the info Jan. Sleepy ------------------------------------------------------------------ It is easier to make a saint out of a libertine than out of a prig. -George Santayana (1863-1952) ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >x-no-archive: yes >> > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Best, >Kurt She doesn't even have a study this time. She is caliming "common knowledge". Sleepy ------------------------------------------------------------------ It is easier to make a saint out of a libertine than out of a prig. -George Santayana (1863-1952) ------------------------------------------------------------------ > She doesn't even have a study this time. She is caliming "common > knowledge". I have them, and you would too, if you'd googled it, much less checked Medline. You recommended niacin, not Niaspan, BTW. Susan <over this waste of time> Will, the a1c is great and so is the hdl. the total cholesterol is too high but not out of this world. are you on a statin such as lipitor. ldl is also too high. It should be under 100 my lab says 75 for diabetics. Loretta -- In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. > Hello everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that down. :-( > LDL was 127, and HDL was 57. Do you perchance have a thyroid problem? When my thyroid is out of whack, so is my cholesterol. SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm > Do you perchance have a thyroid problem? When my thyroid is out of whack, > so is my cholesterol. Good question, Julie. I don't think so.... I think they would have caught that. Maybe I'll ask George, my doctor, that next time I talk with him, though. It really helps knowing my doctor socially. He has been a good friend for over 15 years. Will, T2 >Hello everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >that down. :-( >LDL was 127, and HDL was 57. All in all I would say you did very well. You don't use a statin by chance do you? Wondering what your triglycerides were. Just my opinion, but I think Total Cholesterol and LDL are amongst the easiest things to treat. Your HDL is very good. Keep up the good work! Sleepy ------------------------------------------------------------------ It is easier to make a saint out of a libertine than out of a prig. -George Santayana (1863-1952) ------------------------------------------------------------------ > All in all I would say you did very well. > You don't use a statin by chance do you? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Sleepy Thanks, Sleepy... I still fret a little bit over the higher than desirable LDL. Not on statins.... George did not want to go that route. He thinks it was mostly due to the holidays and a lower level of exercise due to the winter conditions that have been prevailing around here lately. I guess I just have to watch it and try to shape up. He said he would be worried, except the HDL was really so good that the ratio was acceptable. Will, T2 >Hello everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >that down. :-( >LDL was 127, and HDL was 57. OT, Just wondering if you have been watching the Michael Wood series on PBS called "In Search of Myths and Heroes"? Fantastic stuff. IIRC this is the 4th or 5th series of his I have seen. They are all equally well done and fascinating. If you haven't seen it check it out, it's right up your alley. Sleepy ------------------------------------------------------------------ It is easier to make a saint out of a libertine than out of a prig. -George Santayana (1863-1952) ------------------------------------------------------------------ > OT, Just wondering if you have been watching the Michael Wood series > on PBS called "In Search of Myths and Heroes"? Fantastic stuff. IIRC > this is the 4th or 5th series of his I have seen. They are all equally > well done and fascinating. If you haven't seen it check it out, it's > right up your alley. Hey, thanks for the tip. I was not aware that it was running:-) Most of the time in the evenings, I just read, watch the news, or do a little writing. Will, T2 >> OT, Just wondering if you have been watching the Michael Wood series >> on PBS called "In Search of Myths and Heroes"? Fantastic stuff. IIRC [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Will, T2 It's on at 8:00pm on Thursday nights with the inevitible re-runs in Boston area. Don't know when it would be on or even if it is on in Va. Worth a look at the PBS site IMO. Sleepy ------------------------------------------------------------------ It is easier to make a saint out of a libertine than out of a prig. -George Santayana (1863-1952) ------------------------------------------------------------------ >Hello everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >that down. :-( >LDL was 127, and HDL was 57. Keep up the good work! Sure, there may be room for improvement, but overall I think this is great!! Hi Will Happy day on your A1c :-) ... damned cholesterol numbers! I just finished a year long study that compared using zocor alone versus zocor and tricor together in T2 with hyperlipidemia. I had good results on both arms of the study. Bless my parents for my familial hyperlipidemia..... I see the doc 3/6 and am a bit worried as i just had to do a week of oral prednisone for an asthma exacerbation. With the Byetta, my BS numbers were better than they have been in the past on pred, but there were still some in the 200's, aarrgghh. God, I sound sickly!! Fortunately I FEEL better than I sound. Have a lovely sunday (supposed to be 60 & sunny here in Salt Lake City! Barbara >Hi Will >Happy day on your A1c :-) ... damned cholesterol numbers! I just [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Have a lovely sunday (supposed to be 60 & sunny here in Salt Lake City! >Barbara Great hearing from you Barbara. Sorry to hear about your continuing struggle with the BG, in the aftrmath of the prednisone. One of my children has asthma really bad from time to time, so I know a lot about that and the associated problems. All in all, how is the Byetta working from you? It sounds like you've made some progress! I guess the cholesterol is going to be a lifelong problelm for both of us. I don't think I have ever been near as low with the total cholesterol as some of our friends in asd. Maybe a diet enriched with sawdust would help ;-) You never hear of termites with cholesterol problems..... Have a wonderful Sunday, Barbara... It is cold here today, with a chance of snow this afternoon.... New England is really supposed to get it, I hear! Will, T2 |
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