Hi Peter,

I don't know where you are getting your "advice", but it sounds like you
have been the victim of a lot of misinformation. First, you will likely be
hearing from a number of others, including Jennifer, who will provide a
helpful link of advice. Next, until you really get a handle on things, I
would advise you avoid bread, potatoes, rice, cakes, pies, candy, cookies,
and anything sweetented with sugar. Focus upon eating salads, leafy
vegetables, maybe some beans, possibly small amounts of lean meats, esp.
fish, chicken, possibly turkey, and maybe very lean beef. (4-5 oz.) A little
cheese might be OK, from time to time, (3 0z., or less)... Avoid crackers
and anything containing trans fats. Then, keep testing, as much as 6-8 times
a day, especially upon awakening in the morning, before breakfast, and
before and after meals, and before bed. This is not 100% foolproof advice,
but it should get you off to a good start. Then, get a book on the glycemic
index and try to learn about the GI value of different foods and what they
mean.... Also acquaint yourself with the concept of glycemic load.

Stay tuned. There are very many helpful and knowledgeable people who come to
this newsgroup.... People like Alan, Quentin, Jennifer, Julie, Susan, Kate,
and many others who will be eager to help.  Keep coming back and you will
learn a lot.

Finally, if you have not had yourself really checked out by a competent
doctor, for you own sake, I would advise you to do so asap. If you have not
had one already, you need a thorough work-up, if only to know where you
stand, medically, so to speak.

We are not doctors, here, but we do have considrable experience to share.

Wishing you all the best,

Will T2

Hi Peter,

First off you are to be commended for taking control of your sugar
situation at this early stage!

You are in the same place I am in the diabetic progression--1 hour
sugars spiked by carbs that are quickly broken down in the body.  These
generally include such things as potatoes, bread, pasta--anything made
with flour--rice, sugar (of course), fruit juices.  As for me, it's
been easiest if I totally eliminate these things from my diet, however
others practice portion control.  In other words, they still eat these
foods but only in amounts that do not spike their sugars.  You may find
that not all of the items I listed above are problematic for you; and
there may be some things I haven't listed that are.  Problem foods and
amounts tolerated varies for each person.

For a terrific overview on how to determine which foods, and in what
portions, are okay for you, read Jennifer's page:
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm.  When I
first became aware of my own sugar issues, I utilized her advice, and
now know what I can and cannot eat.  By controlling those one hour
blood sugar spikes, I have more energy, am not plagued by constant
hunger the way I was before, and generally feel better.

There are many wise and helpful people in this group, and I'm sure they
will respond as well.

Please hang around and keep us apprised of your progress.

Michelle

I doubt you'll find much support for a starchy diet in this NG.  Carbs
drive up blood sugar.  Period.  Rice, potatoes, breads, etc. are worse
for me than pure cane sugar.  A bagel probably has more sugar-raising
power than any other single piece of food.  Complex carbs are a little,
but not much, better.  And I haven't had much luck with low glycemic
index foods like pasta and apples, either.  You may be able to control
sugar spikes due to high carb meals with meds and/or insulin, but the
less of those you can get by with, the better off you will be, so why
stress your system.

Eat your broccoli.  Cut out empty carbs.  Get used to it.

By the way, you are doing way better than most at your stage.  I was
still in heavy denial when my symptoms were like yours.

Peter, who gave you that advice.  You cannot eat starches with abandon.
As a non diabetic your numbers should be less than 140 after one hour
and under 120 at two hours.

Having those things might be alrright, but you have to watch the
portions.  An ounce of potato chipis would be one carb, not a bag full.

Testing is your mos valuable tool and I am sure that others have told
you to check our website

Loetta

--
In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.

Peter wrote in message ...

  The advice "works" for diabetics who:

  a.  Are using heavy insulin augmentation

 b.  Are willing to follow old-fashioned blood sugar guidelines.

  (The NHANES average HbA1c for T2 is about 7.78.   That correlates with an
average,  24/7 bG of 197.)

 c.  Are willing to accept the higher risk of heart attack which results
from handling heavy insulin augmentation poorly

There are some political considerations in this advice,  i.e.  if doctors
ask Type 2 diabetics to follow too-stringent a diet,   they "run away".

The docs are between a rock and a hard place.    Ask for too much,  and they
get to watch patients run away,  then die young while in pain.    Allow
their patients to eat a lot of carb  and use a lot of insulin augmentation,
and they just die prematurely.

What a choice.    More than a few diabetologists spend some time in
counseling.

You have fallen in with a bunch of weird people.   They don't want to die
young and are willing to work at it.

Regards
 Old Al

Your numbers sound to me like they have crossed the line into full blown
diabetes.  If you have diabetes, then the advice to base meals around
starches does not apply.  If you do not have diabetes (or blood sugar
issues) then no amount of starch in the world is going to affect your BG.

What you need to do is increase the amount of salad and other non-starchy
vegetables.  Cut out or cut back on the fried foods.  And see your Dr. about
your numbers.  You may need to be on meds.

You clearly are a diabetic.

Starchy foods are a bad bet for diabetics.

Potato chips are a bad nutritional choice for anyone.

Susan

Do as I say and not as I do: ie, don't eat potato chips or fries. :)

Dave

Peter,

You've gotten lots of good feedback. It also sounds like you are smart
and motivated and not willing to wait until after severe damage has
already been done to your body.

Check out both links below my signature. Jennifer and I, Jenny, are two
different people with a common goal--helping people avoid damage from
high blood sugars.  My site looks at why diabetes is diagnosed the way
it is, and why the diagnostic standard misses a lot of people with
abnormal blood sugar who are already at risk for serious complications.
It also points you to some of the research that upholds the importance
of maintaining much lower blood sugars than most doctors will recommend.

And yes, eating starch to control diabetes, is like smoking crack to
control drug addiction.

--Jenny

http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u  What They Don't Tell You About
Diabetes -- my site

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
Sugar Under Control-- Jennifer's advice

Hi Peter

Err, yeah, right:

You're right, technically. The bad news is that being a
little bit diabetic is similar to being a little bit
pregnant - except that the problem isn't cured in nine
months.

But the good news is that you're doing all the right things.
You are pro-active, not just blindly accepting what the
"official" sources tell you.

You've had great advice from everyone, so I'll just repeat
some and add some tips to bring it together.

1. Read Jennifer's brilliant advice on testing again:
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/NewlyDiagnosed.htm

2. Add about 30 minutes of moderate exercise to your day.

3. If you need to lose weight, set up a plan to do it.

And see if this helps with your finger soreness:

Painless Pricks

Wash your hands in warm water first, and shake them to get
the circulation going. Check your lancet - it should be
adjustable. Mine is Soft-clix, made by Roche and is usually
painless. I get an occasional tiny sting, and it lets me
know if it's getting blunt sometimes, but I've tested close
to 4000 times in the past 3 years without any trauma. That's
from a guy who was, and is, needle-phobic.

Start with the second lowest setting (1 or 1.5), hold it
firmly against your skin on the side of a finger near the
tip. Don't flinch when you release the button. The button
releases a spring-loaded tiny needle which makes a tiny hole
in your skin and instantly retracts. Incidentally, using the
sides has two advantages - there are less nerve-ends than on
the pads, and it doubles the number of test-points so you
can rotate through the positions.

Massage gently (milking a cow) until a drop of blood forms
sufficient to put on the test strip. If this setting doesn't
provide an adequate quantity, move the lancet setting up one
notch for the next one. If you got a large sample and it
hurt a little, go to the lower setting.

And that's all there is to it. Sometimes it helps to shake
your hands a little more, or warm them up if it's cold. The
manufacturers advise changing the lancet needle every time;
I change mine when I remember or if it gets a bit blunt -
that's about once a month or every 150 tests :-) You do what
you are comfortable with.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.

That, sadly is true in that it's the most common advice. The problem
is that it does not work for most T2 diabetics.

Apparently, there are a few diabetics who can handle such a diet.
However, most cannot, not without accepting unhealthy blood glucose
levels or much higher medication, or both. I do know for sure that I'm
not one of the few who can handle such a diet.

The key thing here is that everyone is different, and responds
differently to different foods. However, as a rule of thumb, fast
carbs such as starch will send your blood sugar high worse than just
about anything.

BTW, congratulations to you for being so pro-active now! Far too many
wait until it's too late, and diabetic complications have set in.

Oh, that's a loaded question! :-)
There have been some hot debates on this group on that topic. :-)

There are many schools of thought on that. The biggest offender, IMHO,
is that it's a case of over-simplification and misunderstanding,
compounded by the medical community not wishing to reverse themselves
on advice they have given for decades.

The reason for pushing high carb starchy foods seems to be that they
are trying to avoid fat, due to heart issues. This overlooks the fact
that fats are not equal; some are good, some are bad. It also
overlooks the fact that dietary fat is not as big a player in blood
cholesterol levels as previously believed.

But, worst of all, it overlooks the fact that one cause of heart
trouble in T2 diabetics is excess insulin in the blood. This is a
result of insulin resistance, common in T2's, meaning that they either
have to produce more or inject more insulin to keep their blood sugar
levels down. Eating starches is the direct opposite of good advice, as
starches convert almost immediately to glucose (sugar)  in the
digestive system.

The best possible advice anyone can give you is to "eat to your
meter", by testing. The best advice around for how to do this is at
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

The cardinal rule here (in this group, and for diabetes in general)
is YMMV, which stands for Your Milage May Vary. In other words, we are
all different, and react to different foods and medications
differently. Your meter is the very best tool you have for figuring
out what you can eat, and what you need to cut down on.