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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / January 2006Is it possible to eat too few carbs.
Hello I have been trying to just eat about 12 -15 carbs for breakfast and lunch, at dinner I can handle a few more. Today at lunch I had about 15g carbs and I was 160 after 2 hours. The last two days I had about 20-25g carbs and was < 140 after 2 hours. For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how the ROCK -N- ROLL has reshaped me: ~Nivana~ When your body senses that your blood sugar is getting too low, the liver will dump extra sugar into your bloodstream. I suspect this may be the mechanism behind your readings while eating fewer carbs. Michelle > When your body senses that your blood sugar is getting too low, the > liver will dump extra sugar into your bloodstream. I suspect this may > be the mechanism behind your readings while eating fewer carbs. > > Michelle But he wasn't eating too few, not even very low carb at those meals. I doubt that carb level triggered a liver dump. Susan >But he wasn't eating too few, not even very low carb at those meals. >I doubt that carb level triggered a liver dump. Susan, Admittedly, it seems a little strange to me too--but what else would have caused it? My reasoning is perhaps it was reaction to the change in however many carbs he was originally eating, which the poster doesn't say. Probably should have asked. :-) But if the 12-15 carbs was a major departure, couldn't the body perceive it as a deficit? Michelle > >But he wasn't eating too few, not even very low carb at those meals. > >I doubt that carb level triggered a liver dump. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > doesn't say. Probably should have asked. :-) But if the 12-15 carbs > was a major departure, couldn't the body perceive it as a deficit? We don't know what he ate with those carbs or what he did after he ate. Fat and fiber may slow a spike and exercise may burn off BG. Many other things could have been different between the different days tested. It's not *all* about what we eat. Priscilla > We don't know what he ate with those carbs or what he did after he ate. > Fat and fiber may slow a spike and exercise may burn off BG. Many other > things could have been different between the different days tested. > > It's not *all* about what we eat. And exercise *may* require more carbs than you've taken on board, triggering a liver dump when the current bg has been burned off up to a certain point. bj >@verizon.net> wrote in message >news:vze23t8n-90364F.1637 If my measurements are correct my bloodstr4eam only holds about 100 calories. That won't get you very far.. So glucose releases must be normal. In my case as a diabetic I see very abnormal releases of glucose. Diabetics cover the spectrum and there is no one answer. We still have a lot to learn about the proper diet and there is probably no one diet for all. I try to evaluate my own case and apply the things that fit me. The basic principles are the best bet to try to apply. We have a glucose control system and in diabetic it fails in some aspects. There is no pat answers for a diabetic. > >But he wasn't eating too few, not even very low carb at those meals. > >I doubt that carb level triggered a liver dump. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > doesn't say. Probably should have asked. :-) But if the 12-15 carbs > was a major departure, couldn't the body perceive it as a deficit? Yes, you are right. I have this problem in the morning if I haven't had enough carbs before bed. I need 30g of carb then, unless for some reason my BG is too high. If I eat less than 30g then I awake with higher BG.  SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm > Yes, you are right. I have this problem in the morning if I haven't had > enough carbs before bed. I need 30g of carb then, unless for some reason my > BG is too high. If I eat less than 30g then I awake with higher BG. In this case, the 140 was two hours after eating 25 grams of carbs. More likely coming down from a spike than a liver dump, dontcha think? This wasn't an overnight fasting number. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > This wasn't an overnight fasting number. Probably. Unless he was very active. When I was on diabetes meds and had a hyperthyroid, it was very easy for me to go hypo. Since I was VERY disabled at that point in time, I wasn't ever far from a source of food. However, if I hadn't been disabled and had ventured off somewhere, it's possible that I may have had a liver dump if I couldn't get to food. There's just too much we don't know. SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm > Susan, > Admittedly, it seems a little strange to me too--but what else would > have caused it? Well, we don't know what his one hour number was, so it may have been the opposite of a dump, it may've just come down from a one hour higher number. My reasoning is perhaps it was reaction to the change > in however many carbs he was originally eating, which the poster > doesn't say. Probably should have asked. :-) But if the 12-15 carbs > was a major departure, couldn't the body perceive it as a deficit? If it was only two hours after a meal in which he ate 15 or 25 carb grams with protein (which also becomes glucose), it's very doubtful he should have experienced a liver dump in two hours. We don't know what all he ate, what his one hour number was, so we have nothing to point to a liver dump at this point. Susan > >But he wasn't eating too few, not even very low carb at those meals. >>I doubt that carb level triggered a liver dump. > > Susan, > Admittedly, it seems a little strange to me too--but what else would > have caused it? In that case, you should've asked, rather than offer a reason, albeit a speculative one. My reasoning is perhaps it was reaction to the change > in however many carbs he was originally eating, which the poster > doesn't say. Probably should have asked. :-) There's an idea. But if the 12-15 carbs > was a major departure, couldn't the body perceive it as a deficit? No, but no two days are alike and no two meals, even if they're exactly the same, will have a guaranteed "same effect" on BG levels. SignatureBeav OMF#19 VN 750 Zed Thou mail is beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com (with the obvious changes) I stand corrected. Michelle > >But he wasn't eating too few, not even very low carb at those meals. >>I doubt that carb level triggered a liver dump. > Susan, > Admittedly, it seems a little strange to me too--but what else would > have caused it? >In that case, you should've asked, rather than offer a reason, albeit a >speculative one. >My reasoning is perhaps it was reaction to the change > in however many carbs he was originally eating, which the poster > doesn't say. Probably should have asked. :-) >There's an idea. >But if the 12-15 carbs > was a major departure, couldn't the body perceive it as a deficit? >No, but no two days are alike and no two meals, even if they're exactly the >same, will have a guaranteed "same effect" on BG levels. -- Beav OMF#19 VN 750 Zed Thou mail is beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com (with the obvious changes) >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Susan He said, "Today at lunch I had about 15g carbs and I was 160 after 2 hours." I will guarantee you if that was all I had for lunch I would either be hypo at the two hour mark on well on my way. That is unless I did have a liver dump in which case I would be high. SignatureGrandpa Chuck -ô¿ô- ~ The following information is given with the utmost respect for the armed forces and civilians who have died in the current war in Iraq. According to http://icasualties.org/oif/ The number of Americans killed in Iraq as of Jan. 8, 2006 is 2,210. United Kingdom = 98 Other = 103 Iraqi deaths in excess of 30,000 according to President Bush - probably many more. > >x-no-archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > hypo at the two hour mark on well on my way. That is unless I did have > a liver dump in which case I would be high. If she's been low-carbing at that level for more than a week her body is burning stored fat. I'm no organic chemist but glucose is stored in fat as glycogen and then this is converted again to glucose for burning (glycogenolysis). Less than 20 grams of carbs per day is pretty extreme and I know that on the Atkin's plan it is a target number during the temporary initial "induction" phase. This gets the body burning fats. After this stage, carbs are reintroduced to around 30-60 grams per day. Again, just my understanding and not presented as any expert information. Paul Not all carbs the same.... You need to check the GI of what you are eating.... and consider overall the glycemic load... Will, T2 >Hello > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >~Nivana~ In your subject line you pose the question, "Is it possible to eat too few carbs?" Or as a diabetes education dietician. Ask you doctor who is treating your diabetes. Chances are you will be told, "Yes. In order to maintain enough brain function to keep your vital organs going you have to have a certain number of carbs per day." I don't have the exact number handy anymore, but it is somewhere around 120-160 to the best of my recollection. There are people who claim to get by on much less or even no carbs. When I asked my doctor about those claims he said any of his patients that have ever made that claim were shown to be only fooling themselves, because when he asked them what they did eat he was able to prove they were eating a lot more carbs than they thought. On the other hand, we have been through this before and I don't think any consensus was ever reached. I will be interested to see what others have to say on the subject. I would say those postprandial numbers are a lot more important than keeping an exact count on carbs consumed. Take care and be well. SignatureGrandpa Chuck -ô¿ô- ~ The following information is given with the utmost respect for the armed forces and civilians who have died in the current war in Iraq. According to http://icasualties.org/oif/ The number of Americans killed in Iraq as of Jan. 8, 2006 is 2,210. United Kingdom = 98 Other = 103 Iraqi deaths in excess of 30,000 according to President Bush - probably many more. Granpa Chuck wrote: > >~Nivana~ > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > I would say those postprandial numbers are a lot more important than > keeping an exact count on carbs consumed. very good post GC. you're right we've been through this before but it's important to continue telling this side of the discussion because "some" in here are pretty regular with their posts about very low carb eating. someone could easily get the impression by reading this newsgroup that the only way to live is to severely limit the carbs. it's been said in here before that eating nothing but cheese and bacon all day would be good for the bg, but bad for the body. but we should not just leave it to common sense about what to eat. we all need to talk to a professional dietician, doctor, or endo about what our needs are. there are some pretty smart people who post here, but no one is a qualfied doctor or dietician. mothers tell their kids not to take candy from strangers. the same advice should apply to radical diet ideas!! lol "People with diabetes have the same nutritional needs as anyone else." - the American Diabetes Association Sally Hi Sally When I was first dx the dietician had me on a 2200 cal aday and to eat 90 carbs per meal. 34 yo male, 170 lbs ~Nirvana~ > Granpa Chuck wrote: > > >~Nivana~ [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Sally > Granpa Chuck wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >>I don't have the exact number handy anymore, but it is somewhere >>around 120-160 to the best of my recollection. But that information is only half true. The brain uses between 100 - 130 grams of *glucose* per day. The glucose does not have to come from dietary carbohydrate. Protein provides a substantial source of glucose, too, without spiking high numbers. Yes, the brain needs glucose, no it doesn't have to come from carbs. Susan >very good post GC. you're right we've been through this before but it's >important to continue telling this side of the discussion because >"some" in here are pretty regular with their posts about very low carb >eating. I certainly agree that it's important to hear about both sides. I certainly wish the ADA would go along with that (giving both sides of the diet issue). (sorry, couldn't resist..) :-) Seriously, the fact is that a high carb diet does not work for some diabetics. I happen to be one of them. If I tried to eat 90 carbs in a meal, I'd get a nasty spike. Therefor, I think it's critical for people to know that there are other options out there, especially if their diet (whatever kind it is) is not working for them. >someone could easily get the impression by reading this >newsgroup that the only way to live is to severely limit the carbs. >it's been said in here before that eating nothing but cheese and bacon >all day would be good for the bg, but bad for the body. I'd tend to agree with that. Not much point in having excellent BG's if one is dead from other causes, is there? I'm low carb, but I suspect you and I share similar views on saturated fats and cholesterol. I do eat some saturated fats, but I keep my consumption at or below the levels listed for a low-fat diet. Incidentally, I've been meaning to ask you how you feel about monounsaturated fats? I'm just curious, not trying to cause arguments. The reason for my curiosity is that I've heard that even the ADA diet says you can substitute monounsaturated fats for carbs, and I wanted to ask a low-fat point of view on that? BTW, one more comment on low-fat Vs. Low carb: I see your point about low fat being an easier regime to follow. I have no trouble at home, but while traveling I can see where low fat would be much easier. > but we should >not just leave it to common sense about what to eat. we all need to >talk to a professional dietician, doctor, or endo about what our needs >are. Agreed on that, with one proviso: a *competent* dietician. Too many dieticians just hand out pre-printed diet plans without even looking at the individual's medical details, or taking them into account. That's incompetence, no matter what, as there are a huge range of needs and differences between diabetics. > >very good post GC. you're right we've been through this before but it's > >important to continue telling this side of the discussion because [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > certainly wish the ADA would go along with that (giving both sides of > the diet issue). (sorry, couldn't resist..) :-) the ADA does discuss low-carb. put it in their search engine. however they don't advise extreme low carb as some in here do. > Seriously, the fact is that a high carb diet does not work for some > diabetics. I happen to be one of them. If I tried to eat 90 carbs in a > meal, I'd get a nasty spike. as always part of the problem with discussing low carb and high carb is everyone has a different meaning for what they are. to some people high carb is 90 carbs for the whole day!!! >Therefor, I think it's critical for > people to know that there are other options out there, especially if > their diet (whatever kind it is) is not working for them. nothing wrong with hearing all options. but who makes the final decision and what do we know to base it on. that's where a pro is needed. > >someone could easily get the impression by reading this > >newsgroup that the only way to live is to severely limit the carbs. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > says you can substitute monounsaturated fats for carbs, and I wanted > to ask a low-fat point of view on that? I eat a lot of nuts and avocados in my diet and use olive oil. yes they are higher in calories but I'm very active and burn them off. I don't always substitute but make them part of my diet. > BTW, one more comment on low-fat Vs. Low carb: I see your point about > low fat being an easier regime to follow. I have no trouble at home, > but while traveling I can see where low fat would be much easier. depends on where you go. some parts of the country it seems like all they eat is high fat. > > but we should > >not just leave it to common sense about what to eat. we all need to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > That's incompetence, no matter what, as there are a huge range of > needs and differences between diabetics. I'll buy that for a dollar! lol good post chris. Sally >> >very good post GC. you're right we've been through this before but it's >> >important to continue telling this side of the discussion because [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >the ADA does discuss low-carb. put it in their search engine. however >they don't advise extreme low carb as some in here do. You are right, they do. The first article that pops up is http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-research/summaries/sharman-lowcarb.jsp Interesting. It's the results of a study, and among the results they say "The low-fat diet was more effective at lowering their LDL (bad) cholesterol level. The very low-carbohydrate diet was better at improving many of the characteristics that make up metabolic syndrome (like glucose levels and HDL cholesterolthe good cholesterol). Participants lost more weight on the low-carbohydrate diet than on the low-fat diet." OK, fair is fair, so I'll admit that I'm amazed to see this on the ADA site! But, regarding the ADA, I still fault them for pushing the high carb diet (Instead of clearly mentioning other options too), as is clearly shown by their main diet pages and their food pyramid. Also, the "rate your plate" page has this little gem: "About one-fourth of your plate should be filled with grains or starchy foods such as rice, pasta, potatoes, corn, or peas. <snip> Then, add a glass of non-fat milk and a small roll or piece of fruit and you are ready to eat!" OK, "starchy foods" with a very high GI are, IMHO, in these quantities madness for many diabetics. If I ate that, I'd have one doozy of a spike. As always, YMMV applies. Ironically, one of the two adds on that page is for an item in the ADA store, a low carb recipes for diabetics cookbook. :-) On the plus side, I am very pleased that the ADA seems to stress whole grains over processed foods. I still shudder when I remember the mostly white flour meal they attempted to feed me in hospital when I was DX'd, that was their "diabetic" diet! >> Seriously, the fact is that a high carb diet does not work for some >> diabetics. I happen to be one of them. If I tried to eat 90 carbs in a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >everyone has a different meaning for what they are. to some people >high carb is 90 carbs for the whole day!!! I couldn't agree more!! The lack of a definition is very problematic IMHO. Same thing with the lack of a definition for "spike". . Speaking of definitions, one other beef I have is that way too many people think "Atkins" is synonymous with "low carb". It isn't. Atkins is merely one form of low-carb diet. It is different from some other forms, such as my own. I guess this is a hot-button issue for me because I frequently get comments like "you eat low carb? You will kill yourself with all that cholesterol! Atkins died from it, you know!" Ugh, the last time I got that, I had trouble keeping a straight face and a civil tongue: the person saying it was munching on an enormous cheeseburger and a pile of fries, while I, the evil low-carb cholesterol junkie, was eating a tofu salad with fresh salsa as dressing! >>Therefor, I think it's critical for >> people to know that there are other options out there, especially if >> their diet (whatever kind it is) is not working for them. > >nothing wrong with hearing all options. That is the only thing I ask. After all, there is no such thing as a one size fits all diabetic diet, and they key is finding what works for you, and it's not possible to do that unless you know what the options are. >but who makes the final >decision and what do we know to base it on. that's where a pro is >needed. A competent pro, perhaps. The trouble is, how is the average person, with limited knowledge, able to judge the competency of their dietician or other medical team members? For me, after seeing three utterly useless charlatans posing as dieticians (the only dieticians in my area), I decided to be my own, and use a combination of common sense, my meter readings, and my blood lipid profiles to be my guides. Same with Doctors: I found a Doc I consider very good, but she and I do disagree on a few points, such as frequency of testing, testing one hour PP, and blood sugar targets (hers are a lot higher than mine). So, I do it my way, and she knows it. She also now freely admits that she can't argue with my blood lab work results, so has stopped objecting. >> Incidentally, I've been meaning to ask you how you feel about >> monounsaturated fats? I'm just curious, not trying to cause arguments. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >they are higher in calories but I'm very active and burn them off. I >don't always substitute but make them part of my diet. You and I aren't so different there, then. I do the same (except I avoid fast carb foods). I don't worry too much about calories anymore, as I'm no longer trying to lose weight, so Avocados and nuts are a bigger part of my diet. >> BTW, one more comment on low-fat Vs. Low carb: I see your point about >> low fat being an easier regime to follow. I have no trouble at home, >> but while traveling I can see where low fat would be much easier. > >depends on where you go. some parts of the country it seems like all >they eat is high fat. That's true.. But, it's usually high fat AND high carb, so even if I wasn't watching my cholesterol I couldn't eat it any more than you could. But, I did see more low-fat options than low carb. It was also far easier to find out the fat content than the carb count. Many menus did list fat (but not by type, darn it!), but almost none listed carbs. >good post chris. Thanks, you too! the pre printed hand outs newbie's get are created from millions of $ in research. they are not the finally diet - they are just a starting point. No doctor will say here is the hand out eat just like this for the rest of your life. you will be told to eat a certain way and keep track of your blood sugar numbers. report back and if needed changes will be made. >the pre printed hand outs newbie's get are created from millions of $ in >research. I do have issues with some of their content, but my main issue here is the practice of *some* so called dieticians of handing them out without ANY knowledge of the patient or medical conditions involved. >they are not the finally diet - they are just a starting point. An awful way to start if the patient happens to be in glucose toxicity, as a great many T2's are right after Dx! >No doctor will say here is the hand out eat just like this for the rest of >your life. you will be told to eat a certain way and keep track of your blood sugar >numbers.>report back and if needed changes will be made. Unfortunately, wrong, at least in the cases I'm admittedly ranting about. The dieticians did NOT tell me to keep track of my BG's, didn't even mention BG's, and didn't know what the Doctor had asked me to do at all before handing me a pre-printeed sheet. This is akin to a doctor handing out prescriptions on a similarly random basis, with no specific knowledge about the patient! And, BTW, when I left the hospital, the *doctor* there did hand me a diet sheet and tell me that I had to eat that way "from now on". It was utter garbage (white flour? Loads of it!). Needless to say, I wasn't crazy enough to try it, given my medical circumstances. (glucose toxicity combined with a massive infection, and a critical need to get my BG's down ASAP). >>the pre printed hand outs newbie's get are created from millions of $ in >>research. > > I do have issues with some of their content, but my main issue here is > the practice of *some* so called dieticians of handing them out > without ANY knowledge of the patient or medical conditions involved. I always let any doctor know i have diabetes. if i had other conditions i would make certain i told them. but from what you posted i dont think your meetings lasted all that long. >>they are not the finally diet - they are just a starting point. > > An awful way to start if the patient happens to be in glucose > toxicity, as a great many T2's are right after Dx! you never tried it - did you? in the begining you were on a diet of very little fat and very little carb. for me that would equal liver dump city and make it look like it was too many carbs. >>No doctor will say here is the hand out eat just like this for the rest of >>your life. you will be told to eat a certain way and keep track of your [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > even mention BG's, and didn't know what the Doctor had asked me to do > at all before handing me a pre-printeed sheet. i remember how those meeting went. in my opinion - even tho you were a total newbie you went in KNOWING the advice was going to be wrong. you walked out of one meeting and the doctor even refused to meet you for another. so yes.. not much was talked about. i am not saying you are wrong - just saying what i remember. > This is akin to a doctor handing out prescriptions on a similarly > random basis, with no specific knowledge about the patient! i must admit when i get a new prescription i am not given a physical or anything. just asked a few breaf questions. > And, BTW, when I left the hospital, the *doctor* there did hand me a > diet sheet and tell me that I had to eat that way "from now on". It > was utter garbage (white flour? Loads of it!). Needless to say, I > wasn't crazy enough to try it, yes, you aready knew more :) given my medical circumstances. > (glucose toxicity combined with a massive infection, and a critical > need to get my BG's down ASAP). what medications where you on at the time? if any I don't think they even started to work yet. all I will say - I am glad I went the way I did and you seem to be glad you went the way you did. just speaking my opinion. Tom >>>the pre printed hand outs newbie's get are created from millions of $ in >>>research. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >if i had other conditions i would make certain i told them. >but from what you posted i dont think your meetings lasted all that long. I wasn't too clear on what happened. I was Dx'd with Diabetes, T2 (though it wasn't certain then) last summer. I was hospitalized due to having a fasting BG of over 600. I was dx'd due to having an enormous infection, a 9" abscess on my back, which led to a blood check with a meter, which was offscale high, and thus a lab test. I was in hospital one day, and my treatment included insulin, which I administered three time a day after release. Due to needing the infection to clear up, I had to get my BG's down FAST. The hospital docs never mentioned this little detail to me, but it's a known fact that high BG's reduce the ability to fight infection and heal. While in hospital, they attempted to feed me an atrocious diet. The dinner was spaghetti, white bread rolls, salad dressing with loads of sugar, white flour cake with frosting (I'm not kidding) for desert, and honey-graham crackers for snacks. They claimed this was their diabetic diet, and it was "OK because I was on insulin". I had to defy both the Docs and nurses by refusing to eat most of it, and heading down to the cafeteria to get a salad with turkey chunks (the only halfway healthy food they had). >>>they are not the finally diet - they are just a starting point. >> >> An awful way to start if the patient happens to be in glucose >> toxicity, as a great many T2's are right after Dx! > >you never tried it - did you? Yes, and no. Of course I didn't try it at first. I had a massive infection and had to get my BG's down as fast as possible. I didn't have the time to experiment or run the risks of high BG's. I got my BG's down to low levels within nine days doing it my way. I did, much later, try the increased carbs diet gradually. As I did, my BG's went up. Also, the old hunger returned, threatening my weight loss. So, I stopped. The main objection to low-carb seems to be that it's higher in saturated fats and cholesterol. For me, this is a non-issue, as my diet is within the low-fat guidelines for those. As for monounsaturated fats, even the low fat guidelines say you can substitute these for carbs. My diet, basically, is a low-fat diet with monounsaturated fats taking the place of most of the carbs. Give than I eat a heck of a lot of varied vegetables, I can't see a single thing I'm missing nutritionally doing it this way. >in the begining you were on a diet of very >little fat >and very little carb. for me that would equal liver dump city and make it >look like it was >too many carbs. Yep... I freely admit that when I first came here, I didn't know what the heck I was doing. Also, you are quite correct that liver dumps might have been a problem in those first few days. I was darn near starving due to my diet having about 500 calories a day. I basically knew I had to limit carbs drastically, but also thought I had to avoid all fats and most protein, too. That left me with a somewhat limited range of options. :-) However, I (thanks to this group) was able to expand it, and still avoid the carbs. And my BG's came down within days. Please bear in mind that my situation was unusual; I had a dire need to lower my BG's as fast as possible, and I was also extremely glucose-toxic, due to both the very high BG's and perhaps the infection. >>>No doctor will say here is the hand out eat just like this for the rest of >>>your life. you will be told to eat a certain way and keep track of your [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >another. >so yes.. not much was talked about. Errr, no. First off, I was unclear, these meetings were with dieticians, not doctors (except for the one handout in the hospital). The first one went rather badly because the dietician wasn't there. It was supposed to be a consultation, and she didn't show up, and I was told by the receptionist that the initial consultation consisted of being given handouts and a diet to follow, not actually meeting with the dietician. All the dietician knew about me was that I was Diabetic, T2. NOTHING else (weight? Medical issues? Medications? allergies?). For this, they wanted money, so I stormed out. Another was actually there, but had similar results. Again, diet handed to me without knowing a darn thing about me other than DM T2. >i am not saying you are wrong - just saying what i remember. I see your point, and my lack of clarity sure does not help. I'm not trying to slam all dieticians, just the ones I encountered. > This is akin to a doctor handing out prescriptions on a similarly >> random basis, with no specific knowledge about the patient! > >i must admit when i get a new prescription i am not given a physical or >anything. >just asked a few breaf questions. Same here. But, I do read all the prescribing info, and the Doc at least knows my basic medical conditions. For a parallel to my dieticians, imagine going to a new doc, without your medical records, and being handed a prescription without even being asked any questions. >> And, BTW, when I left the hospital, the *doctor* there did hand me a >> diet sheet and tell me that I had to eat that way "from now on". It >> was utter garbage (white flour? Loads of it!). Needless to say, I >> wasn't crazy enough to try it, > >yes, you aready knew more :) I knew enough to know that white flour is both near worthless nutritionally, AND converts quickly to glucose, so, yep, in that one instance I think even this clueless newbie did indeed know more. :-) For a supposedly healthy diet, their use of white flour instead of whole grain shocked me, and I can think of no rationale for it. >given my medical circumstances. >> (glucose toxicity combined with a massive infection, and a critical >> need to get my BG's down ASAP). > >what medications where you on at the time? if any I don't think they even >started to work yet. Initially, 500mg metformin, and Insulin R from a chart, 3 times daily (though they never bothered to tell me when!) . You are correct that the Metformin hadn't had time to work and was at too low a dose to do so, but I didn't feel I had the time (due to the infection) to take a wait and see approach. As for the Docs, they told me it would take months to get my BG's under control, and never suggested any options to get my BG's down fast. I do know my doc was astounded that I did it (she said so). >all I will say - I am glad I went the way I did and you seem to be glad you >went the way you did. >just speaking my opinion. >Tom Thanks Tom. I'm certainly not trying to say my way is for everyone. I do however think that avoiding carbs might be a good *initial* strategy for those in my situation, until they are out of severe glucose toxicity. But, regarding those on other diets, my own rule is that if it works for you, it's right for you, so I'm in no way trying to criticize your approach. I'm glad it works for you. I also enjoy hearing different opinions and discussing them. Thanks! > Errr, no. First off, I was unclear, these meetings were with > dieticians, not doctors (except for the one handout in the hospital). i do not know how it is where you are from but here all the dietitians i have ever seen and read about are doctors. > The first one went rather badly because the dietician wasn't there. It > was supposed to be a consultation, and she didn't show up, and I was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Diabetic, T2. NOTHING else (weight? Medical issues? Medications? > allergies?). yes i remember your thread about the no show dietitian. this is the one you called several times before the meeting. and as i remember you already seemed to think low fat was a bad idea. what where your phone calls about? i just checked for your early posts to this group - seems like they were removed. > For this, they wanted money, so I stormed out. > > Another was actually there, but had similar results. Again, diet > handed to me without knowing a darn thing about me other than DM T2. yes i remember you even saying that for that diet to work you would have to have been 8 feet tall. and pointed to a web site with a basic tool for figuring calorie needs - yes it is far from perfect. but when i looked at the same program and told you that you didnt have to be 8 feet tall and from what you posted - that those caloric needs were not off. i remember you telling me something like. I only said that because the dietitan didnt no anything about me and that the web site you pointed to wasnt very good at getting caloric needs. so in short you basically lied but in a joking manner - but the way you put it newbies would have no way of knowing that even you didnt believe what you just wrote. because you didnt have to be 8 feet tall and you later admitted that you didnt tell the truth. >>i am not saying you are wrong - just saying what i remember. > > I see your point, and my lack of clarity sure does not help. > I'm not trying to slam all dieticians, just the ones I encountered. yes i have noticed - i also noticed that you admit to some of those slams not being true. you only said that because the dietitian didnt know that much about you. > For a parallel to my dieticians, imagine going to a new doc, without > your medical records, and being handed a prescription without even > being asked any questions. im pretty sure that right after the dietitian gave you the hand out the conversation went quickly into you bashing that advice. that is jmo > I knew enough to know that white flour is both near worthless > nutritionally, AND converts quickly to glucose, so, yep, in that one > instance I think even this clueless newbie did indeed know more. :-) i dont think so - you see there is also a lot of psychology involved with treating newbies. and those millions of dollars that were spent on research for treating newbies is not only nutritional. i would have cried like a baby if they would have given me whole grain rye crackers on my first day dx and that my friend also rises blood sugar. not to mention you were also on insulin in the hospital. well i did cry anyway - but with medications and a little bit more activity everything worked out fine. > For a supposedly healthy diet, their use of white flour instead of > whole grain shocked me, and I can think of no rationale for it. psychology and wining the battle for the long run. i have had to make a lot of changes in my life and i was not ready to make them all at once. you also did not have to eat everything they put infront of you. i also dont know if some how you are also making a joke about what you were fed - like the joke you made about your dietitian. >>given my medical circumstances. >>> (glucose toxicity combined with a massive infection, and a critical [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > to get my BG's down fast. I do know my doc was astounded that I did it > (she said so). did they really say it would take months? you were taking orals and Insulin and they told you it would take months to get your bg's under control? >>all I will say - I am glad I went the way I did and you seem to be glad >>you [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > hearing different opinions and discussing them. > Thanks! im sorry Chris you seem like an alright guy but I have seen to many come in here and seem to already have the low carb agenda. after all we do see our share of spammers come in here. I cant think of a better place for spammers to come and push diets can you? I seem to think that you and many others here feel that the low fat diet ( high carb ) hardly works for anyone. and that you can not have good numbers with a low fat diet. but in every one of the studies that are posted here comparing the 2 diets - both diets seem to work just fine. did you ever see anyone stating that during the study those on low fat diets couldn't control blood sugar levels? I know you already read what is below but with all the millions of dollars spent on the study of diabetes by the ADA alone do you really believe they never tested their advice using a meter? The American Diabetes Association Research Program supports basic and clinical diabetes research aimed at preventing, treating, and curing diabetes. The diabetes research projects we support cover the spectrum from islet cell biology and transplantation techniques, to studies in education and behavioral issues. We have increased our support for diabetes research, from providing $18 million in 1999, to providing $40 million in 2005. The ADA Research Funding program is designed to complement the National Institutes of Health (NIH) diabetes research program by supporting new investigators and new research ideas. With support from ADA, investigators are often able to prove that their ideas are solid enough to get more substantial funding from the United States federal government. the beginners guide from the Joslin diabetes center. is just one of the many places that the ADA pays to do research. here is what they have to say. http://www.joslin.org/Beginners_guide_527.asp >> Errr, no. First off, I was unclear, these meetings were with >> dieticians, not doctors (except for the one handout in the hospital). > >i do not know how it is where you are from but here all the dietitians i >have ever seen >and read about are doctors. I'm in northern Arizona, and I've never heard of a dietician who is also an MD. Are you sure all the dieticians in your area (NYC, right?) are MD's??? >> The first one went rather badly because the dietician wasn't there. It >> was supposed to be a consultation, and she didn't show up, and I was [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >and as i remember you already seemed to think low fat was a bad idea. >what where your phone calls about? As I recall, I was trying to make sure that I got an actual consultation, to actually discuss my situation. I can't recall how many times I called that one though, might have been only twice. I know I never got to speak to the dietician herself, just the receptionist. >i just checked for your early posts to this group - seems like they were >removed. Hmmm? That's odd. I've done nothing along those lines myself. OK, just checked, and I do have the x-no-archive flag set, so I'm not in google after a week. >> For this, they wanted money, so I stormed out. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >and pointed to a web site with a basic tool for figuring calorie needs - yes >it is far from perfect. Ahhh, I'd forgotten that. Yes, I do now recall being perplexed by the rather high calorie content. >but when i looked at the same program and told you that you didnt have to be >8 feet tall and from what [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >because you didnt have to be 8 feet tall and you later admitted that you >didnt tell the truth. I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you are talking about? I do now recall being perplexed by the calories, and the deal about 8 foot tall vaguely rings a bell, but frankly I don't remember it well. I think i did indeed miscalculate the calories but that was due to my activity levels I think, due to being very active. Which, of course, the dietician had no way of knowing. >>>i am not saying you are wrong - just saying what i remember. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >yes i have noticed - i also noticed that you admit to some of those slams >not being true. What, exactly? >you only said that because the dietitian didnt know that much about you. What I fault the dietician for is presuming to prescribe a diet WITHOUT knowing much of anything about me or my medical needs. >> For a parallel to my dieticians, imagine going to a new doc, without >> your medical records, and being handed a prescription without even [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >conversation went >quickly into you bashing that advice. that is jmo In the second case (the one where the dietician was actually present) I did indeed object, but it had nothing to do with the diet. It had everything to do with her trying to put me on a diet WITHOUT knowing what my medical needs were. >> I knew enough to know that white flour is both near worthless >> nutritionally, AND converts quickly to glucose, so, yep, in that one [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >in the hospital. well i did cry anyway - but with medications and a little >bit more activity everything worked out fine. Thank you for illustrating my point: That a one-size-fits-all approach is worse then useless. In my case, I've always hated white flour, but based on taste, not nutrition. Even as a chile I hated white bread. So, for me, putting me on a white flour diet would have been just as much to my dislike as whole wheat would be to you, plus it would be nutritionally unsound. And, frankly, I love whole grain rye crackers, and I'd have killed for one when all they would give me were honey-graham that I didn't dare eat (and don't like anyway). I'm glad everything worked out ok for you... BTW, how is your back doing? >> For a supposedly healthy diet, their use of white flour instead of >> whole grain shocked me, and I can think of no rationale for it. > >psychology and wining the battle for the long run. i have had to make a lot >of changes in my life and i was not ready to make them all at once. You are fortunate that you had the option. The infection meant I did not have a choice; I'd have been risking serious disablement or death had I not gotten rid of the infection ASAP. Also, different people take different approaches to problems. I'm an impatient type, so my inclination is to do it (whatever the unpleasant task) as fast as possible and get it over with. Granted, often not a good way of doing things, but fighting my inclinations would have been as hard for me as it would have been for you to make changes all at once. > you also did not >have to eat everything they put infront of you I certainly did had If I had made the mistake of taking their orders. OK, maybe not the cake (I'm guessing) but the nurse did order me to eat the spaghetti and bread rolls. I'm glad I didn't. >. i also dont know if some how you are >also making a joke about what you were fed - like the joke you made about your dietitian. I have been sardonic a time or too, such as saying the meal I was fed in hospital was a real diabetic diet, because if I wasn't diabetic going in, I would have been coming out. But, that does not change the facts regarding what I said they attempted to feed me, nor the fact that they did indeed tell me it was their diabetic diet. >>>given my medical circumstances. >>>> (glucose toxicity combined with a massive infection, and a critical [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >did they really say it would take months? The Doc who later became my GP told me in hospital that I might be on orals only "eventually". I saw her three days after release (I'd already made some progress) and she said "hopefully as soon as a few months" and I was told I'd be put on either actos or avandia (I can't remember which now) in a few weeks. Two weeks later (when I'd gotten my BG's down and she was shocked) told me she had thought it would take six months. Actually, the more I think about it, she mentioned the actos or Avandia in the hospital, not at the three day appointment. >you were taking orals and Insulin >and they told you it would take months to get your bg's under control? OK, let me be very specific to avoid misunderstandings: I was placed on insulin to be administered from a chart. If, and only if, BG was under 122 could I skip injections. So, I'd be off of insulin once my BG was under 122 at all times. Therefor, the end of insulin and good BG numbers were tied together, so when they said it would take me months to get off of insulin, I think it's safe to say that they were also telling me it would take me that long to get my BG's under control. >I cant think of a better place for spammers to come and push diets can you? >I seem to think that you and many others here feel that the low fat diet ( >high carb ) >hardly works for anyone. I've never said that, nor thought it. Obviously, it does work for some, just as does low carb. What the percentages are, I have no idea. >and that you can not have good numbers with a >low fat diet. I certainly do have opinions on whether *I* could get good numbers on a high carb diet, but as for anyone else, I think the best way is to use their meter and find out what works for them. >but in every one of the studies that are posted here comparing the 2 diets - >both diets seem to work >just fine. did you ever see anyone stating that during the study those on >low fat diets couldn't control blood sugar levels? Actually, yes, in a way. On the ADA site and several others it clearly stated that you may need your medication adjusting to handle that many carbs, which I think can fairly be interpreted as saying that you may need it increasing. Therefor, it's evident that in such a case, the diet is having a detrimental rather than positive effect on BG control. >I know you already read what is below but with all the millions of dollars >spent on the study of diabetes by the ADA alone >do you really believe they never tested their advice using a meter? In a word, no, at least not that my searches have been able to turn up, not as a comprehensive test of T2's on orals, with meter readings at both one and two hours, with comparisons to other diet types. If I'm wrong, I'd be utterly delighted, as I'd love to see the results of such a study, regardless of what it indicates. BTW, are you claiming that there won't be much difference, for the majority of T2's, at the one hour PP test, whether they eat a bowl of pasta compared to a salad? >the beginners guide from the Joslin diabetes center. is just one of the many >places that the ADA pays to do research. >here is what they have to say. > >http://www.joslin.org/Beginners_guide_527.asp That was one of the first places I went when surfing for info after getting out of hospital. In general, it's very good but very basic (as I suppose it needs to be). Their testing advice puzzles me though: "The best times to check are before breakfast, before lunch, before dinner, and at bedtime snack. Sometimes it is helpful to check blood glucose 1-2 hours after a meal to see the effect of food on your glucose levels, and sometimes it is helpful to check in the middle of the night." Testing BEFORE meals is the best time? How on earth is that as useful as the 1 and 2 hour PP tests unless you are either using the info to calculate a bolus, or modify your individual meal content? >>>Errr, no. First off, I was unclear, these meetings were with >>>dieticians, not doctors (except for the one handout in the hospital). [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Are you sure all the dieticians in your area (NYC, right?) are MD's??? From the governments Bureau of Labor and Statistics http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos077.htm Dietitians and nutritionists need at least a bachelor’s degree in dietetics, foods and nutrition, food service systems management, or a related area. College students in these majors take courses in foods, nutrition, institution management, chemistry, biochemistry, biology, microbiology, and physiology. Other suggested courses include business, mathematics, statistics, computer science, psychology, sociology, and economics. Of the 46 States and jurisdictions with laws governing dietetics, 31 require licensure, 14 require certification, and 1 requires registration. Requirements vary by State. As a result, interested candidates should determine the requirements of the State in which they want to work before sitting for any exam. Although not required, the Commission on Dietetic Registration of the American Dietetic Association (ADA) awards the Registered Dietitian credential to those who pass an exam after completing their academic coursework and supervised experience. As of 2004, there were about 227 bachelor’s and master’s degree programs approved by the ADA’s Commission on Accreditation for Dietetics Education (CADE). Supervised practice experience can be acquired in two ways. The first requires the completion of a CADE-accredited program. As of 2004, there were more than 50 accredited programs, which combined academic and supervised practice experience and generally lasted 4 to 5 years. The second option requires the completion of 900 hours of supervised practice experience in any of the 265 CADE-accredited internships. These internships may be full-time programs lasting 6 to 12 months or part-time programs lasting 2 years. To maintain a registered dietitian status, at least 75 credit hours in approved continuing education classes are required every 5 years. To get the credential REGISTERED Dietician (which not all have): From the other ADA (the American Dietetic Association). http://www.eatright.org/cps/rde/xchg/ada/hs.xsl/home_6658_ENU_HTML.htm What Is a Registered Dietitian? A registered dietitian is a food and nutrition expert who has met the minimum academic and professional requirements to qualify for the credential "RD." In addition to RD credentialing, many states have regulatory laws for dietitians and nutrition practitioners. State requirements frequently are met through the same education and training required to become an RD. What Are Educational and Professional Requirements for a Registered Dietitian? Registered dietitians must meet the following criteria to earn the RD credential: Receive a bachelor's degree from a U.S. regionally accredited university or college and course work approved by the Commission on Accreditation for Dietetics Education of the American Dietetic Association Complete a CADE-accredited supervised practice program at a health-care facility, community agency or a foodservice corporation or combined with undergraduate or graduate studies. Typically, a practice program will run six to 12 months in length. Pass a national examination administered by the Commission on Dietetic Registration Complete continuing professional educational requirements to maintain registration. Some RDs hold additional certifications in specialized areas of practice, such as pediatric or renal nutrition, nutrition support and diabetes education. These certifications are awarded through CDR, the credentialing agency for ADA and other medical and nutrition organizations and are recognized within the profession but are not required. >>>Errr, no. First off, I was unclear, these meetings were with >>>dieticians, not doctors (except for the one handout in the hospital). [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Are you sure all the dieticians in your area (NYC, right?) are MD's??? No, they're not. They have 4 year degrees and an internship to become registered dieticians. Susan >> I'm in northern Arizona, and I've never heard of a dietician who is >> also an MD. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Susan A four year degree is the usual. But in some states, NY for example, you can have an associates degree and a qualify IF you have thousands of hours of experience under a licensed dietitian and take continuing education classes. 46 states have some sort of certification or license requirement... which means that 4 states have none. This is the website of the ADA (American Dietetics Association - they are the ones that bestow the "Registered Dietitian" monikers). http://www.cdrnet.org/certifications/licensure/ They say: "Dietetics practitioners are licensed by states to ensure that only qualified, trained professional provide nutrition services or advice to individuals requiring or seeking nutrition care or information. Only state — licensed dietetics professionals can provide nutrition counseling. Nonlicensed practitioners may be subject to prosecution for practicing without a license. States with certification laws limit the use of particular titles (eg, dietitian or nutritionist) to persons meeting predetermined requirements; however, persons not certified can still practice. Consumers in these states who are seeking nutrition therapy assistance need to be more cautious and aware of the qualifications of the provider they choose." Jennifer > A four year degree is the usual. But in some states, NY for example, > you can have an associates degree and a qualify IF you have thousands of > hours of experience under a licensed dietitian and take continuing > education classes. Which truly puts Tom's assertion about RDs to rest. Hard to believe he's ever even met one. Susan Jennifer wrote: >> A four year degree is the usual. But in some states, NY for example, >> you can have an associates degree and a qualify IF you have thousands >> of hours of experience under a licensed dietitian and take continuing >> education classes. So this means if you worked for 10 years ladling out chicken nuggets in a high school cafeteria assisting a dietitian, you could spend two years at the community college and come out certified to tell diabetics how to eat. Scary. --Jenny http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u Diabetes Info http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood Sugar Under Control Not exactly... It's a lot more than that. To become accredited in NY and begin with an Associates Degree you must: Associate's Degree Education: You must have completed a program leading to the associate's degree in dietetics-nutrition that is, at the time you completed the program, registered by the New York State Education Department as qualifying for certification in dietetics-nutrition, accredited by the Commission on Accreditation for Dietetics Education (CADE), or the equivalent of such a program. The program must include at least 30 semester hours of course work in the professional dietetics-nutrition content area and have at least 15 semester hours of course work in the human biological sciences and social behavioral sciences content area. Courses appropriate for each of these content areas are defined in the next section. Experience: You must have completed a combination of ten full-time equivalent years of education and supervised experience within the fifteen years preceding your application for certification. If your education was undertaken within the last fifteen years, you will be credited with one year of credit for every 30 semester hours of acceptable education up to a maximum of two years. A full-time equivalent year of work experience in dietetics and nutrition is 1,600 hours. To qualify, the experience must include: assessing nutrition needs and food patterns; planning for and directing the provision of food appropriate for physical and nutrition needs; and providing nutrition counseling. The experience must include at least two and one-half full-time equivalent years of planned work experience. Planned work experience means continuous work experience in dietetics-nutrition, which reflects increased levels of professional growth and is under the supervision of a New York State Certified Dietitian-Nutritionist or someone who is registered by or a member of a national dietetic or nutrition association acceptable to the New York State Education Department. > Jennifer wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood > Sugar Under Control I worked at a high school for longer than that. There were no dietitians there. The menus came from downtown, which the head cook followed, or not. :-) -- Cheri Jenny wrote in message ... >So this means if you worked for 10 years ladling out chicken nuggets in >a high school cafeteria assisting a dietitian, you could spend two years >at the community college and come out certified to tell diabetics how to >eat. > >Scary. >>>>the pre printed hand outs newbie's get are created from millions of $ in >>>>research. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >which led to a blood check with a meter, which was offscale high, and >thus a lab test. Hi Chris, You have my very sincerest sympathy.. I am so sorry you suffered the way you did.... By comparison, my own situation pales in comparison. Nevertheless, I and a great many of us on here know what's going on.. Please let us know how we can help. I was onlly around 290 at diagnosis, but did approach 400 at times... I know how it feels... in my case with crippling and unremitting pain. Now, with neuropathy. If I have been a jerk in the past to you, please let it pass... I really feel for you. Will, T2 >>I wasn't too clear on what happened. >>I was Dx'd with Diabetes, T2 (though it wasn't certain then) last [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >You have my very sincerest sympathy.. I am so sorry you suffered the >way you did.... It was kinda scary, but could have been so much worse, and many if not most of the people here have had it far worse than I. Looking back on it, the infection led to my Dx perhaps years earlier than it otherwise would have occurred, so I'm now happy things worked out as they did. > By comparison, my own situation pales in comparison. >Nevertheless, I and a great many of us on here know what's going on.. >Please let us know how we can help. I'm fine, now, but this group was both my rock and my advisor when I was in desperate need. Thank you so much for your post, though, it's darn nice of you! >I was onlly around 290 at diagnosis, but did approach 400 at times... >I know how it feels... in my case with crippling and unremitting pain. >Now, with neuropathy. Yipes. IMHO you had a rougher time of it than I did. While my infection was painful at times, it was also a temporary situation. >If I have been a jerk in the past to you, please let it pass... I >really feel for you. I've never thought you were a jerk to me, ever! Actually, I can't recall you saying anything bad to me period. I've always thought well of you, and enjoy your posts. But, even if you did say something bad in the past, I hold no grudges, and we are all facing the same darn disease, my friend. > >>>the pre printed hand outs newbie's get are created from millions of $ in > >>>research. [quoted text clipped - 170 lines] > hearing different opinions and discussing them. > Thanks! Wow Chris, I must have missed your early posts. I didn't realize you went through such a tough time. I must say I am very impressed with your discipline in sticking to a low-fat and low-carb diet, and it certainly sounds like that has paid off for you. And you must be a very strong person to fight for yourself at such a tough time. I had it much easier and at diagnosis was lucky to get sent right away to a diabetes management program through my HMO. This gets me me access to regular group medical appointments (I'm on a every 3 months schedule) with a small group of other T1s and T2s with varying health issues. The program is run by a great endo and a clinical psychologist, and they check blood work, your feet, get you scheduled for eye appointments, get your prescriptions in order, etc., as well as work with you in the group setting. It was truly educational to hear what the other T2s and the T1s issues were and to listen as the endo described possible change in the treatment, etc. As part of the program, I also went to an all day nutrition class run by a dietitian. In California at least, dietitians usually have BA degrees in nutrition etc., and do not have medical or nursing licenses. Because of the class size of 15 or so, the training was somewhat one size fits all. She did emphasize eating a balanced diet and paying attention to carb intake and adjusting it by testing to the meter. So it was a pretty good experience. Now, if I just had your willpower and self dicipline, I'd be in the 5% club by now. I'm so sorry you had to go through what you did, but it seems you came out on top! Best wishes, Ricavito >Wow Chris, I must have missed your early posts. I didn't realize you >went through such a tough time. I must say I am very impressed with >your discipline in sticking to a low-fat and low-carb diet, and it >certainly sounds like that has paid off for you. And you must be a >very strong person to fight for yourself at such a tough time. Thanks for the very kind words, but honesty compels me to admit that I don't have a large amount of willpower. I had the motivation of the big infection, and I've needed less effort to stick to my diet than most here, due to dumb luck: I happen to like, and have eaten for years, many of the foods that are now on my diet. So, it wasn't that much of a change for me. For example, I'm darn lucky in that I never liked sugar or most sweets, so giving it up was not exactly a hardship. For many here though, it took real effort and willpower. As for fighting for myself, I've always been willful and independent, to such an extent that I've always been self employed (I don't get along with bosses). So, that was just my natural inclination, nothing special. >I had it much easier and at diagnosis was lucky to get sent right away >to a diabetes management program through my HMO. This gets me me [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >the other T2s and the T1s issues were and to listen as the endo >described possible change in the treatment, etc. That sounds fantastic! I am very happy for you, and a bit envious :-). >As part of the program, I also went to an all day nutrition class run >by a dietitian. In California at least, dietitians usually have BA [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >attention to carb intake and adjusting it by testing to the meter. So >it was a pretty good experience. That does sound good, and that's what I was looking for right after Dx. >Now, if I just had your willpower and self dicipline, I'd be in the 5% >club by now. I'm so sorry you had to go through what you did, but it >seems you came out on top! You don't want my willpower and self discipline, because believe me it's not that good! I even went on a trip recently and broke the rules more than a few times. How long ago were you Dx'd? Getting into the 5% club can take a while, and it varies from person to person how hard it is, depending on medical conditions, plus the variance in hb1ac levels from person to person with identical BG levels (up to a 1% variation, or one full point). Best wishes, Chris > How long ago were you Dx'd? Getting into the 5% club can take a while, > and it varies from person to person how hard it is, depending on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Best wishes, > Chris Hey Chris, In answer to your last question, it's been over a year and a half that I was diagnosed. I seem to be on the two steps forward, one step back routine, so progress has been very slow, but there is progress. Like you and many others here, I feel that the key to being successful with this stoopid condition is educating yourself and taking control. Lots of folks here have had to battle with a poor health care system, old fashioned doctors, clueless dietitians, etc. I recognize that I've been lucky to have a supportive medical team who are up on current treatments and therapies, so it's mainly just myself I'm doing battle with :-) I pop in here every day or two to read and sometimes post. I feel like it keeps me focused. It's so interesting to hear other's experiences too....I appreciate you sharing what led to your diagnosis and the ridiculous experiences with the hospital staff. Best wishes to you! Ricavito >> How long ago were you Dx'd? Getting into the 5% club can take a while, >> and it varies from person to person how hard it is, depending on [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >I was diagnosed. I seem to be on the two steps forward, one step back >routine, so progress has been very slow, but there is progress. I've found the same.. I had to learn not to get stressed over every little unexplained blip on my meter. >Like >you and many others here, I feel that the key to being successful with [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >treatments and therapies, so it's mainly just myself I'm doing battle >with :-) I was lucky in one way; the Doc I was assigned at the hospital put me on insulin right away, which I've since learned isn't always the case. I think that initial insulin to stabilize my BG's helped me enormously. And I sure do agree with the "doing battle with oneself" part... That's always the hard part. :-) >I pop in here every day or two to read and sometimes post. I feel like >it keeps me focused. It's so interesting to hear other's experiences >too....I appreciate you sharing what led to your diagnosis and the >ridiculous experiences with the hospital staff. I feel the same way. I've been a bit less active lately as I've been swamped with work, so sometimes I have to skip a day. >Best wishes to you! And to you, too! Chris >> >very good post GC. you're right we've been through this before but it's >> >important to continue telling this side of the discussion because [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >the ADA does discuss low-carb. put it in their search engine. however >they don't advise extreme low carb as some in here do. How many (or few) carbs do you consider "extreme low carb"? Sleepy _______________________________________________________ The ability to simplify means to eliminate the unnecessary so that the necessary may speak. -Hans Hofmann, painter (1880-1966) _______________________________________________________ > Hello > > I have been trying to just eat about 12 -15 carbs for breakfast and lunch, > at dinner I can handle a few more. Today at lunch I had about 15g carbs and > I was 160 after 2 hours. The last two days I had about 20-25g carbs and was > < 140 after 2 hours. Certainly it's possible to eat too few! But how many is too few is the question we haven't seemed to agree on. I usually can't handle much of any carbs at breakfast and as time goes on, not much for lunch either. Dinner is another matter. And then I need some carbs before bed or I'll wake with higher BG. SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm > See my webpage: > http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm Whoa! Turn down your speakers and take the cat off the monitor before visiting Julie's web page. ;) Paul > Whoa! Turn down your speakers and take the cat off the monitor before > visiting Julie's web page. ;) Sorry. Heh! I did have a more mellow tune on there for a while, but I switched it back. SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm Hi Julie Your story sound like me exactly. Mornings suck. No matter what I eat in the morning my BG is a bit high. I have had a little luck getting up at 4:30 am and eating a snack and then eating breakfast at about 8:30 am. This seems to stop the dawn effect somewhat. Lunch is a little better and dinner is even better. ~Nirvana~ > > Hello > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > See my webpage: > http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm > Hi Julie > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > stop the dawn effect somewhat. Lunch is a little better and dinner is even > better. Yep! Seems like every time I think I've figured out something that works, something changes and I have to start from scratch again. When I was first diagnosed my problem was one of trying to eat enough carbs. I didn't know then how badly my thyroid was out of whack. It's always something! SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm If your numbers are fine, then there arent too few. YOu have to keep testing what you are eating and see how your numbers are after eating and fasting. Only you can judge on what is too many and what is too few for you. Loretta -- In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. What were you before the "160" lunch? How long have you been at this? How high were your BGs up until you started lower carb eating? All those things are germaine to the 160 after your meal. Jennifer > Hello > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > ~Nivana~ > What were you before the "160" lunch? 90 > How long have you been at this? 1 week > How high were your BGs up until you started lower carb eating? 180 or > at after lunch > All those things are germaine to the 160 after your meal. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > > > ~Nivana~ One week is still very early on. Your body may have some roller coaster left in it. Jennifer >>What were you before the "160" lunch? > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >>> >>>~Nivana~ > Hello > > I have been trying to just eat about 12 -15 carbs for breakfast and lunch, > at dinner I can handle a few more. Today at lunch I had about 15g carbs and > I was 160 after 2 hours. The last two days I had about 20-25g carbs and was > < 140 after 2 hours. It can depend on the type of carb. 15 gr carb from white bread would send me to 160 as well, 15 gr from high fibre low starch vegetables and yoghurt wouldn't. What exactly was your 15 gr lunch today? And more importantly what was your pre lunch reading. Pre-lunch was 90 I had a Lean Cuisine meal that was only 9 carbs (grilled chicken and broc.) and some chicken noodle soup (very little noodles) ~N~ > > Hello > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > your 15 gr lunch today? And more importantly what was your > pre lunch reading. > Pre-lunch was 90 > > I had a Lean Cuisine meal that was only 9 carbs (grilled chicken and broc.) > and some chicken noodle soup (very little noodles) > > ~N~ It would be very helpful to know, too, what your one hour reading was. Did the soup have MSG in it, by any chance? Susan > Pre-lunch was 90 > > I had a Lean Cuisine meal that was only 9 carbs (grilled chicken and broc.) > and some chicken noodle soup (very little noodles) The soup may have had more carbs in it than you thought. Especially if it was a prepared soup. I find that I don't do well with restaurant noodle soups even if I eat mainly broth. Something about the noodles steeping in there for hours, I think. At home when I make soup, I always cook the noodles or rice separately and then add them to my portion so I know exactly what I'm getting. SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm > Pre-lunch was 90 > > I had a Lean Cuisine meal that was only 9 carbs (grilled chicken and broc.) > and some chicken noodle soup (very little noodles) I went to the Lean Cuisine page and looked in the carb conscious group - everything else in their range is high'ish carb. The grilled chicken had 15 gr carb per meal. Also the noodles, even in small amounts, in the soup can send you high. Did the soup have a nutrition label? I've got one in the freezer... If you subtract the fiber of 4g... it's 9 Jennifer >>Pre-lunch was 90 >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Also the noodles, even in small amounts, in the soup can > send you high. Did the soup have a nutrition label? > I've got one in the freezer... > > If you subtract the fiber of 4g... it's 9 So it's 13 gr total not 15 gr as the website says? >>I've got one in the freezer... >> >>If you subtract the fiber of 4g... it's 9 > > So it's 13 gr total not 15 gr as the website says? Actually... it's my lame math tonight ; ) It's 11g. 15 - 4 I have no idea why that made it 9 in my mind! Jennifer > Hello > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > ~Nivana~ What's a nivana ?? Yes, one can eat too few carbs and cause a host of issues includ |
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