Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / February 2006
Is this neuropathy?
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Andrea2 - 10 Jan 2006 21:35 GMT I have been getting a tingling, pins and needles feeling in my toes. I don't have it in the morning at all. I get it after my morning exercise, I run for 3-4 miles every morning. When I get home and take my shoes off my toes are almost numb and feel the pins and needles when I walk barefooted. It gradually goes away over 4-5 hours.
My boyfriend, also a T2, says it's not neuropathy because I don't get it in the morning. I'm not due for a doctor appointment until the end of next month.
Andrea2 Type 2
David - 10 Jan 2006 21:41 GMT > I have been getting a tingling, pins and needles feeling in my toes. I > don't have it in the morning at all. I get it after my morning [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Andrea2 > Type 2 look at link: http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/sym/tingling_toes.htm
Google "tingling toes" for more links.
see a doctor
Dave
David - 10 Jan 2006 21:45 GMT > I have been getting a tingling, pins and needles feeling in my toes. I > don't have it in the morning at all. I get it after my morning [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Andrea2 > Type 2 There will be idiots here who "KNOW" exactly what is wrong with you. No matter that they haven't run any tests, or seen you. No need for you to spend money and time going to a doctor. They'll give you a FREE diagnosis. No need to leave the comfort of your home. They'll feel so USEFUL that they provided you with expert medical advice.
[Major sigh]
Dave
Julie Bove - 10 Jan 2006 21:55 GMT > I have been getting a tingling, pins and needles feeling in my toes. I > don't have it in the morning at all. I get it after my morning [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > it in the morning. I'm not due for a doctor appointment until the end > of next month. Sounds like it could be. And you should never go barefoot. A neurologist is the Dr. you need to see.
 Signature See my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm
bantista - 10 Jan 2006 22:29 GMT >I have been getting a tingling, pins and needles feeling in my toes. I > don't have it in the morning at all. I get it after my morning [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Andrea2 > Type 2 Hello, Andrea2
Who knows? Lots of things act like this.
Could be neuropathy which does all kinds of bad things (frozen shoulder, trigger finger, burning feet, numb feet, numb hands, dry skin, dying organs, etc., and including pins and needles in the toes) all the time, not just in the morning.
Could be you need new shoes. When did you switch out your last pair? Running shoes break down inside and need to be replaced on a regular basis , as I hope you already know. Three or four times per year would not be uncommon for daily runners. Or, Maybe they don't fit quite right.
How are your bg readings and your A1C? Have they been spiking over 140 at two hours after meals or over 6.0 as a usual thing.
I know a guy with MS has the same symptom, not to freak you out.
Lots of things act like this.
Make sure and mention it to your Doc when you see him.
Does your Doc test your feet on every visit? He should give them a good once over visual inspection, soles and toes and nails, and also test with a tuning fork and filament (thread) and maybe even a pin, as well as checking range of motion and whether you can tell position of toes and general attitude, bent up bent down. That sort of thing.
Hope it isn't neuropothy, by the way. I saw some ASD posts earlier about various things one can do to improve neuropathy if that's what it turns out to be, but I'm no expert in that (or anything, really). Suggest you check them out if they are still hanging around your server, or google for them. I think Quintin probably knows lots about this.
Even if it is, All is not lost.
good luck and regards rudy bantista@thuntek.net
Andrea2 - 11 Jan 2006 01:46 GMT >Hello, Andrea2 > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >rudy >bantista@thuntek.net My BG is under good control, I do occasionally get spikes over 140 but not over 160. I use Humalog before meals and sometimes I mess up and need a correction shot. My A1c has been 5.8 or lower for a year now. I've been T2 for 9 years, I use metformin, Lantus and Humalog.
My boyfriend suggested it was my shoes but it can't be that. He also said I'm faking it to get him to give me foot massages (not true). I have 3 pair of running shoes, they all fit well and are broken in. If it were only one foot I would think it was a pinched nerve but both feet are involved.
Is it unusual to get the neuropathy symptoms after exercise? It goes away a few hours later.
I know I shouldn't go barefooted and don't go barefooted outside. In the house, there is nothing that could damage my feet. I usually just ware socks in the house.
Andrea2 Type 2
bantista - 11 Jan 2006 03:45 GMT >>Hello, Andrea2 >> [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > need a correction shot. My A1c has been 5.8 or lower for a year now. > I've been T2 for 9 years, I use metformin, Lantus and Humalog. Hello Andrea2
Sounds good. Got to catch/watch for spikes. But good job on the A1C. Of course, could be a little better. Mine is not quite that good, 5.9. I haven't had DM T2 as long as you though.
> My boyfriend suggested it was my shoes but it can't be that. Why not? Really?
>He also > said I'm faking it to get him to give me foot massages (not true). Well, that could be fun when properly done but sounds like wishful thinking. Might be better than walking about barefoot.
>I > have 3 pair of running shoes, they all fit well and are broken in. Ahh, but running shoes that are 'broken in' are worn out. And if they needed to be broken in, they probably didn't fit, actually, to begin with. Just FYI.
>If > it were only one foot I would think it was a pinched nerve but both > feet are involved. > > Is it unusual to get the neuropathy symptoms after exercise? It goes > away a few hours later. We don't know yet what it is. But like I said before, I know a guy has the same thing after excercise. And it doesn't go away, it just waits for your next excursion.
> I know I shouldn't go barefooted and don't go barefooted outside. In > the house, there is nothing that could damage my feet. I usually just > ware socks in the house. I wear flip flops that extend past the edges of my feet all the way around or sheepskin lined slippers with wool inside and covered toes. My flip flops have pebbled footbeds which helps stability and sensation.
That's in the house.
> Andrea2 > Type 2 Andrea2 could be the shoes. Could be something else. You didn't say if your doc checks your feet or has in the past, we don't know what it is yet. If you find out, please let us know.
regards, rudy bantista@thuntek.net
Loretta Eisenberg - 12 Jan 2006 18:52 GMT Andrea2 I dont know if if it is or it isnt. You really need to see doctor, Julie suggested a neurologist. I saw a podiatrist yesterday and he tested the nerves in my feet and thank goodness no sign of neuropathy yet I sometimes get tingling in my toes.
I hope I dont get hammered, but I never wear shoes. I wont ask the obvious question as to why we shouldnt wear shoes.
Of course, I mean in the house.
Loretta
-- In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism.
Chris Malcolm - 15 Jan 2006 13:10 GMT > I hope I dont get hammered, but I never wear shoes. I wont ask the > obvious question as to why we shouldnt wear shoes. I think in most cases it's an unthinking application of a general rule that diabetics must always wear shoes. The problem arises if you have neuropathy to a sufficient degree that that you might injure your foot without realising it, and might have impaired healing of injuries to the extent that healing the injury could become a problem.
I have neuropathy in one foot, but not to the extent that an injury might go undetected. In fact since I sometimes walk long distances where feet in good condition are very important, one of the benefits of being barefoot in the house is that I probably inspect my feet carefully both by touch and visually at least once every other day.
When I tell some medical professional that I have diabetes and they tell me I must be careful always to wear shoes I use it as a useful filter for detecting that I'm talking to a clot.
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Sleepyman - 15 Jan 2006 18:55 GMT >> I hope I dont get hammered, but I never wear shoes. I wont ask the >> obvious question as to why we shouldnt wear shoes. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >tell me I must be careful always to wear shoes I use it as a useful >filter for detecting that I'm talking to a clot. When you get an accidental cut that doesn't heal well due to diabetes and it turns into something worse, remember who the clot is.
Sleepy
_______________________________________________________ The ability to simplify means to eliminate the unnecessary so that the necessary may speak. -Hans Hofmann, painter (1880-1966) _______________________________________________________
Chris Malcolm - 16 Jan 2006 13:43 GMT >>> I hope I dont get hammered, but I never wear shoes. I wont ask the >>> obvious question as to why we shouldnt wear shoes. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >>tell me I must be careful always to wear shoes I use it as a useful >>filter for detecting that I'm talking to a clot.
> When you get an accidental cut that doesn't heal well due to diabetes > and it turns into something worse, remember who the clot is. It's a progression, not a suddent development. Before that happens I'll find an accidental cut that I didn't feel when it happened and that heals more slowly than the current fast healing norm. When I observe that beginning to happen I'll take appropriate steps.
I have as yet no difficulty remembering who is a clot.
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
bj - 11 Jan 2006 01:36 GMT Are you sure your shoes still fit? do they really have enough room in the toebox? are they maybe worn out anyway -- and "worn out" for running shoes is long before they look like it.
Don't think that just because you're all grown up your feet can't change sizes. I've gone up 1-2 sizes -- and that's since I was 58! and I'd already gone up about 1 whole size when I was around 40-something. bj
>I have been getting a tingling, pins and needles feeling in my toes. I > don't have it in the morning at all. I get it after my morning > exercise, I run for 3-4 miles every morning. When I get home and take > my shoes off my toes are almost numb and feel the pins and needles > when I walk barefooted. It gradually goes away over 4-5 hours. Julie Bove - 11 Jan 2006 02:07 GMT > Are you sure your shoes still fit? do they really have enough room in the > toebox? are they maybe worn out anyway -- and "worn out" for running shoes [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > sizes. I've gone up 1-2 sizes -- and that's since I was 58! and I'd already > gone up about 1 whole size when I was around 40-something. My feet went changed from a narrow width to a medium width when I entered Jr. High. Then in my late 20's, I went up 1/2 a size. Then after the diagnosis of diabetes, I learned part of the reason for my foot pain. My feet had not only gone up a whole size but a whole width too. And they became thicker from top to bottom. I kept buying soft shoes because I thought the softness, suede and the like would make my feet feel better. I had no idea my feet were being crammed into the shoes! I finally went to a good shoe store where they know how to measure feet. Problem solved!
As for running shoes, I prefer New Balance because they come with different lasts to fit the shape of your foot. They also come in different widths. I can get a year or two (depending on how often I wear them) from a pair of shoes. But I don't run! My husband does run and he can only get 3-4 months from a pair. He wears New Balance too. But things break down in the shoes when you are pounding on them all the time.
My daughter is taking Hip Hop this year. That's a type of dancing for those who don't know. She wears athletic shoes for this. The dance class is one hour a week, although the class tends to run long because it's the last class of the day and the teacher just keeps going because the kids beg for more. She has already worn out two pairs of shoes (Keds) since the beginning of the year. The tread is all worn off the bottom. Her New Balance shoes are still in good shape.
One thing I learned in watching the diabetic foot video at my Endo's office is how to tell if your shoes fit. Stand down on a piece of paper and trace around each foot. It's best to have someone else do the tracing. That way your entire weight is on the paper so you get the true size and shape of your foot as you would be walking on it. Label each one so you know which is the right and which is the left. Feet can be different sizes. Then cut them out and hold them up to the bottom of your shoes. If any portion of your foot is sticking out beyond the sole of the shoe, then the shoe doesn't fit.
 Signature See my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm
Andrea2 - 11 Jan 2006 03:31 GMT >Are you sure your shoes still fit? do they really have enough room in the >toebox? are they maybe worn out anyway -- and "worn out" for running shoes [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >gone up about 1 whole size when I was around 40-something. >bj It is hard for me to get good fitting shoes, I wear size 4 and my feet are slightly different. I go to the San Diego Running Institute, they fit each foot separately and I think they do a very good job. I presently have 3 pair which I wear according to where I am going running. I need to get a new pair about every 6 months.
Since I have been getting the neuropathy symptoms with all 3 pair, I don't think it is the shoes. I am wondering if the "pounding" my feet take that makes the neuropathy bad enough for me to feel it OR maybe the circulation is getting bad in my feet and running requires more so I feel the symptoms.
I've read about EPO and ALA supplements for neuropathy. I already take an Omega 3 supplement containing DPA, DHA, and EPA.
Andrea2
Andrea2
Julie Bove - 11 Jan 2006 04:36 GMT > It is hard for me to get good fitting shoes, I wear size 4 and my feet > are slightly different. I go to the San Diego Running Institute, they > fit each foot separately and I think they do a very good job. I > presently have 3 pair which I wear according to where I am going > running. I need to get a new pair about every 6 months. Wow! Size 4 is rare. My friend's daughter wears that size and can rarely ever find them. She usually goes up to a 5 and wears really thick or two pairs of socks.
> Since I have been getting the neuropathy symptoms with all 3 pair, I > don't think it is the shoes. I am wondering if the "pounding" my feet > take that makes the neuropathy bad enough for me to feel it OR maybe > the circulation is getting bad in my feet and running requires more so > I feel the symptoms. Another thought is that the shoes haven't got enough cushioning. My husband complains of aching feet if he doesn't wear those sports inserts in his shoes.
<snip>
 Signature See my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm
bj - 11 Jan 2006 17:16 GMT > Another thought is that the shoes haven't got enough cushioning. My > husband complains of aching feet if he doesn't wear those sports inserts > in his shoes. Using inserts (which I also do) will probably also require a larger size -- maybe enough to get you into a less-rare size.
Inserts come in all sorts of types & thicknesses, from add-on to replacement, in different materials, and so on. You can even adjust them by adding a piece more here & there (say, a bit more padding under the heel) or cutting out toe areas, etc. My feet apparently grew just enough that cutting out more from the front of my inserts gave my toes the room they were running out of in my current shoes. I have a few months before I need to go through the shoe search & replacement routine. I have several pairs -- when I find something that works, I get more! so they last for 12-18 months overall.
I've also noticed that my feet are not as numb (especially in the toes!) after running since I stopped lacing up my shoes quite so tight -- which I did because they'd feel like they were slipping otherwise. Better fit & inserts-adjustments have really helped. I've learned that I have to tie them so that they *almost* feel a tad loose -- then it'll be fine -- I didn't even need to adjust them for a 1/2Marathon last month (though my feet did hurt a bit afterwards, plus a blister that came on after about 10mi.). bj
RHONDA - 11 Jan 2006 09:12 GMT Hi Andrea, I have neuropathy in my feet and have the same symptoms you describe, along with burning and numbness. I have this 24/7 though, I'm a T1 with Lupus and Polymyositis, struggling with my blood sugars and its all driving me crazy, haha, I hope you find out something soon and can get it straightened out! Take care Rhonda
>I have been getting a tingling, pins and needles feeling in my toes. I >don't have it in the morning at all. I get it after my morning [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Andrea2 >Type 2
 Signature RHONDA
W.M.McKee - 11 Jan 2006 14:02 GMT >I have been getting a tingling, pins and needles feeling in my toes. I >don't have it in the morning at all. I get it after my morning [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Andrea2 >Type 2 Hi Andrea,
I would be hesitant to label what you are experiencing as neuropathy. Certainly, it could be.... That sort of sounds like what it sometimes feels like, although in my case, the symptoms at onset were very severe, crippling, and unremitting pain. It seems that it can be a little different for everyone.
Also, I would suggest that running for 3 to 4 miles could cause your symptoms, in the complete absence of neuropathy. Years ago, in my younger and more athletic days, I would go for 4 to 8 miles almost every day.... After the 8 mile run, I could hardly feel my feet, either!
Since you have a doctor appointment coming up, however, I would urge you to discuss your concerns with your doctor.
Will, T2
Andrea2 - 11 Jan 2006 21:03 GMT >Hi Andrea, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Will, T2 It's not the shoes, it must be neuropathy. This morning I decided not to run but workout on the stair stepper. I have had it for years but almost never use it. I worked out for an hour until I was quite tired. When I stopped and sat down, my feet felt like they were going to sleep, not just my toes but all the way up to my ankles. I got the same pins and needles when I walked barefooted. It took 3 hours to go away completely.
I called my endo, talked to a PA, she told me it sounded like neuropathy but couldn't be sure. I had her refer me to a Neurologist and I have an appointment for Friday morning.
I went out and bought some ALA and Evening Primrose Oil. The only extended release ALA I could find is JARROW FORMULAS Alpha Lipoic Acid 300mg 60 Tablet Time Releases. The EPO is 1000mg. I'm not sure how much to take, I'm going to try 1 EPO and 1 ALA with each meal (3 per day). How long does it take to see some results?
I love running more than anything else, I have been a runner since my high school days. I run on almost every day, if I couldn't do it any more it would be devastating to me.
Andrea2 Type 2
wmmckee@cox.net - 11 Jan 2006 21:31 GMT Well, I am sure I speak for all us in hoping you do not have neuropathy.... I've got it, and I would not want anyone on earth to suffer what I felt prior to my diagnosis....
Please let us know how it goes, and take care of yourself.
Will, T2
Julie Bove - 11 Jan 2006 21:41 GMT > >Hi Andrea, > > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > high school days. I run on almost every day, if I couldn't do it any > more it would be devastating to me. I take 2,000 mg of EPO each morning and night. Have taken the ALA off and on and haven't noticed that it does anything for me. I think it took me about 2 months to see results.
 Signature See my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm
wmmckee@cox.net - 11 Jan 2006 21:54 GMT I would agree with Julie. I did not see any immediate results from the alph lipoic acid, either, but with time, perhaps the neuropathy has slightly improved. Certainly, it has not gotten worse. Also, I cannot forget to add that I have been taking lots of stuff, the same stuff that Quentin, Oz, Jennifer, and others tell us about constantly..... I find that they have given very good advice, on the whole, and they all give good laughs, too! Julie is cool, too! Did not mean to leave you out, Julie.... :-)
I think some of the things that have helped me most noticeably have been folic acid and B vitamins.... Those helped me get the inflammations under control.... You don't know what misery is, until you cannot even reach for a box of tissues.... Kate knows, though... Right, Kate?
If it is neuropathy, you have to face it, Andrea, that's all. And you will know what you have to do to take back your life. It will involve some adjustments, but you sound like a very intelligent lady. I know you can do it!
Will, T2
David - 11 Jan 2006 22:32 GMT > I called my endo, talked to a PA, she told me it sounded like > neuropathy but couldn't be sure. I had her refer me to a Neurologist [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > extended release ALA I could find is JARROW FORMULAS Alpha Lipoic Acid > 300mg 60 Tablet Time Releases. The EPO is 1000mg. I'm not sure how Stocking up on snake oil? <g> If it works, it's due to the placebo effect.
Dave
Andrea2 - 12 Jan 2006 03:16 GMT I haven't tried snake oil. Is it rich in omega 3? <g> I do take seal oil, it is very rich in EPA, DHA and DPA.
Many in this group have said that the EPO and ALA helped their neuropathy, it's worth a try for me. They can do no harm except maybe to my bank account.
Andrea2 Type 2 ---------------------------------------------------------- The way is not in the sky. The way is in the heart. ----Buddha
Anon - 12 Jan 2006 03:28 GMT I haven't tried snake oil. Is it rich in omega 3? <g> I do take seal oil, it is very rich in EPA, DHA and DPA.
Many in this group have said that the EPO and ALA helped their neuropathy, it's worth a try for me. They can do no harm except maybe to my bank account.
Andrea2 Type 2 ---------------------------------------------------------- The way is not in the sky. The way is in the heart. ----Buddha
Seal oil, you mean from seals? Is it legal to sell it here?
Anon
wmmckee@cox.net - 12 Jan 2006 18:33 GMT Many in this group have said that the EPO and ALA helped their neuropathy, it's worth a try for me. They can do no harm except maybe to my bank account.
Andrea2 Type 2 ---------------------------------------------------------- The way is not in the sky. The way is in the heart. ----Buddha
Very cool sig, Andrea2
Will, T2
Anon - 12 Jan 2006 03:20 GMT >> I called my endo, talked to a PA, she told me it sounded like >> neuropathy but couldn't be sure. I had her refer me to a Neurologist [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Dave I haven't tried snake oil. Is it rich in omega 3? <g> I do take seal oil, it is very rich in EPA, DHA and DPA.
Many in this group have said that the EPO and ALA helped their neuropathy, it's worth a try for me. They can do no harm except maybe to my bank account.
Andrea2 Type 2 ---------------------------------------------------------- The way is not in the sky. The way is in the heart. ----Buddha
guy - 12 Jan 2006 03:59 GMT On the subject of neuropathy I have a few comments.
The only real way to handle it is to keep he blood sugars under control 24/7.
My case was severe pain in the limbs. Nothing helped. When I found out on MHD what I needed to know to establish control. In a few weeks I noted a reduction and now years later I onl;y have problems when I get lax with blood sugar control.
I will note that my nerves were not dead bit damaged. At first the pain seemed to be more severe when control was established but then started to abate.
The proper time to deal with this problem is before it happens.
You can fool yourself by not testing enough or in the wrong times. You can fool yourself but not mother nature.
Too many docs are not qualified to treat these problems A long story.
GET the blood sugars under control 24/7 AND quit using food for recreation Guy.
Frank - 12 Jan 2006 01:42 GMT > I have been getting a tingling, pins and needles feeling in my toes. I > don't have it in the morning at all. I get it after my morning [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Andrea2 > Type 2 Yup.
Andrea2 - 14 Jan 2006 02:44 GMT I went to the Neurologist today. After many tests and poking (and tickling) he said I don't appear to have any neuropathy at all. That was the good news.
He does think I have a vascular problem, and he referred me to a Vascular surgeon who specializes in Peripheral vascular disease. This could be worse that neuropathy, I think.
Andrea2 Type 2 ---------------------------------------------------------- The way is not in the sky. The way is in the heart. ----Buddha
bantista - 14 Jan 2006 08:12 GMT > I went to the Neurologist today. After many tests and poking (and > tickling) he said I don't appear to have any neuropathy at all. That [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The way is not in the sky. The way is in the heart. > ----Buddha Hello, Andrea2
Thank you for the update.
Glad you have no neuropathy.
Don't know much about vascular diseases; except that diabetics are prone to have them.
Good luck and keep us posted if you feel you can share. I know we wish you well. Hope the next doc can figure out what's happening.
regards, rudy bantista@thuntek.net
Sleepyman - 15 Jan 2006 18:52 GMT >I went to the Neurologist today. After many tests and poking (and >tickling) he said I don't appear to have any neuropathy at all. That [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >The way is not in the sky. The way is in the heart. > ----Buddha Ask for an arterial doppler. I can find out if the required amount of blood is being allowed into your leg arteries.
Sleepy
_______________________________________________________ The ability to simplify means to eliminate the unnecessary so that the necessary may speak. -Hans Hofmann, painter (1880-1966) _______________________________________________________
Andrea2 - 28 Jan 2006 00:05 GMT >>I went to the Neurologist today. After many tests and poking (and >>tickling) he said I don't appear to have any neuropathy at all. That [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >necessary may speak. -Hans Hofmann, painter (1880-1966) >_______________________________________________________ I went to the vascular specialist today. He did do a Doppler ultrasound on my legs. He measured blood pressure and made me exercise on steps for 15 minutes, then did the ultrasound again. The only thing he found was a very slight vascular insufficiency after the exercise. He said it may or may not get worse but continued exercise shouldn't affect it.
He told me to take 3-4 grams of fish oil (omega-3) a day. He said it could slow the progression of vascular insufficiency.
Andrea2
Sleepyman - 09 Feb 2006 02:28 GMT >>>I went to the Neurologist today. After many tests and poking (and >>>tickling) he said I don't appear to have any neuropathy at all. That [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > >Andrea2 Sounds like you have a good doc. As I know you exercise a lot, no need for me to mention it. Glad to hear it isn't more serious.
Sleepy
_______________________________________________________ The ability to simplify means to eliminate the unnecessary so that the necessary may speak. -Hans Hofmann, painter (1880-1966) _______________________________________________________
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