P.S.
I am not doubting in any way that the BEST way to prevent complications
from diabetes is from good BG control, proper diet and exercise.
However, I believe that these food supplements can enhance that control.

You've been satisfied taking them even though she said they served "no
value"......
Why is it so important to sway her opinion???

ALA is not just an antioxidant and there is lab research confirming that
it helps neuropathy as well as a lot of anecdotal evidence from people
here who use it and get relief.

I am finding with my tour of endos that their knowledge of diabetes
tends to end with whatever was accepted belief during the last year they
did their residency. Even board certification is no guarantee that the
doctor will be familiar with anything having to do with diabetes EXCEPT
the use of the latest Big Pharma drugs. Their "continuing education"
seems to be in how to prescribe new and expensive drugs, and not much else.

Sad, but true.

The only research about antioxidants that might be worth noting (which
your doctor didn't mention) is that the form of Vitamin E which you find
in capsules, according to recent research, seems to have a negative
effect on the heart, so get your vitamin E from foods like sunflower
seeds. And too much vitamin C isn't good for your blood sugar either, so
stay with a modest dose.

EPO and ALA, OTOH seem to be very useful. There's some evidence that
sprinkling cinnamon on your food might be worth doing too. Again, avoid
overdoses as there is no information about long term use and you're
going to be an old man by the time it gets published.

--Jenny

http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u  Diabetes Info

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/newlydiagnosed.htm Get Your Blood
Sugar Under Control

Knowledge is power. Sometimes, when we get a little, it can give us power
over our own destinies. It can also sometimes be dangerous, especially if it
gives a falsely exalted sense of that power.

In my experience, I have noticed that doctors are like all the rest of us...
They all have their biases and prejudices, likes and dislikes. Some do not
like patients who ask questions. Some do not like to keep up with
advancements in the state of knowledge in their chosen field. Some of them
are too pre-occupied with their own personal problems and concerns to really
care about their patients, beyond making sure they keep the money coming
in....

Maybe your doctor has good reasons for having formed the opinions she has,
maybe not.... It might not hurt to get another opinion from another doc. I
can tell you, though, that I feel that I have benefited from ALA, folic
acid, B supplements, generally, and flax seed oil, although when mine runs
out, I may switch to fish oil, and start taking flax bran, or fiber, so as
to avoid too much alpha linolenic acid.

Best of luck to you in whatever you decide.

Will, T2

I have yet to meet an MD that seemed to believe anything but a pricey
pharmaceutical drug was of any value--at least in the U.S.  (I have
read that German physicians often take a more moderate approach and
often prescribe herbal/vitamin remedies before resorting to
pharmaceuticals if it is possible.)  I think it is a bias of American
medicine--probably due to pharmaceutical industry influence.

Often there are not as many or no rigorous studies on the use of
herbals or vitamins because much of this kind of research is done by
the pharmaceutical industry and they're not going to waste money doing
research on a cheap vitamin when they can make big bucks selling a
pharmaceutical grade medication.  The studies that are available on
vitamins and herbals are often small, done by underfunded private or
perhaps university-related researchers.  Therefore these studies don't
make it into the collective knowledge of mainstream medicine.

I shudder to think how long it took mainstream medicine to pick up on
the fact that 400 mcg of folic acid prevented the birth defect spina
bifida.  Such a simple solution to a devastating problem.

I don't know if you can convince your endo, but if you want to try, I
would accumulate as many studies as possible on the subject and show
them to her.  However, it might just be easier for you to do what you
know works.

Michelle

This post not CC'd by email

G'day G'day,

Your endocrinologist is telling the truth ... as she knows it. The
sad reality is that almost all the trials on anti-oxidant supplements
have found them to be of "no value", a waste of money and sometimes
even likely to increase risks.

Let's stand back and take a look at what has taken place.  You asked a
general question about anti-oxidants.  And you got a general answer.
When most medical people think of anti-oxidants they think of about
three: Vit C, Vit E and betacarotene. If you had asked more specific
questions eg "What to you think of zeaxanthin or lutein
supplementation?" you would have been more likely to have gotten a
different answer.  It might have been,"I don't know" which would have
been reasonable as it is unlikely to have been in her field of
interest.

It might still have been "no value" based on a generalisation formed
from reading the current research on long term studies of Vit C, Vit E
and betacarotene.  People do make generalisations that guide them in
their decision even when perhaps they shouldn't especially if they
feel it could be damaging to their professional image to say, "I don't
know."

She might still have said "no value" if she believed anybody could get
sufficient specific bioflavonoids from diet ... overlooking the fact
that sometimes people don't like vegetables and that people who are
overweight have a greater requirement because being fat soluble, the
carotenoids are diverted away from the little bits and pieces we have
become sentimentally attached to like the retinas of our eyes.

Put simply, when a general question is put, it unwise to conclude that
the general answer will serve for specific situations.

They might.  Alpha lipoic acid has a very short life time in the body
unless you take a slow release formulation.

I find reality often has an important part to play.  <grin>

For what it is worth I happen to think the EPO/alpha lipoic acid
combination has benefits if you are experiencing neuropathy. For some
people the EPO by itself will be sufficient. It all depends on the
status of your antioxidant network.  That includes all the polyphenols
and other stuff which like alpha lipoic acid recycle Vit C and Vit E
amongst other things.

Best wishes,

Hi rdlebreton,

there are a lot of studies on Alpha Lipoic Acid
It is prescribed in Germany for Diabetes II
I keep an eye on the stuff
Here is the latest I found :

Free Radic Biol Med. 2006 Jan 1;40(1):3-12.

Exercise training and the antioxidant alpha-lipoic acid in the treatment of
insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes.

Henriksen EJ.

Department of Physiology, Muscle Metabolism Laboratory, University of
Arizona College of Medicine, P.O. Box 210093, Tucson, AZ 85721-0093, USA.

One hallmark of the insulin-resistant state of prediabetes and overt type 2
diabetes is an impaired ability of insulin to activate glucose transport in
skeletal muscle, due to defects in IRS-1-dependent signaling. An emerging
body of evidence indicates that one potential factor in the multifactorial
etiology of skeletal muscle insulin resistance is oxidative stress, an
imbalance between the cellular exposure to an oxidant stress and the
cellular antioxidant defenses. Exposure of skeletal muscle to an oxidant
stress leads to impaired insulin signaling and subsequently to reduced
glucose transport activity. Numerous studies have demonstrated that
treatment of insulin-resistant animals and type 2 diabetic humans with
antioxidants, including alpha-lipoic acid (ALA), is associated with
improvements in skeletal muscle glucose transport activity and whole-body
glucose tolerance. An additional intervention that is effective in
ameliorating the skeletal muscle insulin resistance of prediabetes and type
2 diabetes is endurance exercise training. Recent investigations have
demonstrated that the combination of exercise training and antioxidant
treatment using ALA in an animal model of obesity-associated insulin
resistance provides a unique interactive effect resulting in a greater
improvement in insulin action on skeletal muscle glucose transport than
either intervention individually. Moreover, this interactive effect of
exercise training and ALA is due in part to improvements in IRS-1-dependent
insulin signaling. These studies highlight the effectiveness of combining
endurance exercise training and antioxidants in beneficially modulating the
molecular defects in insulin action observed in insulin-resistant skeletal
muscle.

PMID: 16337874

hth
Gys