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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / January 2006Carotenoids... a simple eating plan
G'day G'day Folks, Sometimes it takes a bit of effort to get information into a form that is simple to use. Hopefully it is worth it. The idea is eat one serving from each of the four categories to supply sufficient carotenoids, the yellow, orange or red stuff in fruit or vegetables that protects important things like eyes and arteries. If you have excess fat you will need more because some will dissolve in the fat and be diverted away from where it is really needed. Of course each category will contain some carotenoids from other categories. The assumption is that one will do the whole thing. Category 1 Amount Available Lutein (6 mg) to eat carb Item g g Spinach, cooked 90 1 Spinach, raw 30 0 Kale, cooked 65 4 Kale, raw 65 5 Turnip greens, cooked 70 1 Turnip greens, raw 55 2 Beet greens, cooked 70 0 Beet greens, raw 40 2 Broccoli, cooked 310 5 Broccoli, raw 265 11 Categpry 2 Amount Available Lycopene (10 mg) to eat carb Item g g Tomatoes, raw 370 8 Tomatoes, canned 180 6 Tomato juice 120 5 Tomato sauce 125 7 Spaghetti sauce 125 16 Ketchup 60 15 Categpry 3 Amount Available Zeaxanthin (0.6 mg) to eat carb Item g g Corn, canned 190 32 Corn, fresh 125 Corn, frozen 125 21 Corn, on the cob 115 22 Cornmeal 95 66 Orange peppers 180 5 Tangerines 170 20 Mandarin oranges 190 22 Persimmons 170 25 Category 4 Amount Available Beta-carotene (11 mg) to eat carb Item g g Apricots, raw 105 10 Apricots, canned 130 6 Carrots, raw 120 8 Carrots, cooked 80 4 Cantaloupe, raw 135 10 Pumpkin, raw 115 7 Pumpkin, canned 120 6 Sweet potatoes, cooked 165 25 Original carotenoid data is from Table 2. http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/10/3117/ Grams of available carbohydrate were calculated from USDA figures. My table has some shortcomings. No allowance has been made for differences in glycemic index. The carb content is so low for most greens that participants in trials are unwilling to eat enough to get 50 grams of carbs. I assume most T1s don't bother with glycemic index anyway when calculating insulin dosage. Interestingly, when vegetables are cooked they often lose some carbohydrate but glycemic index increases markedly. A simple, viable, rough rule for T2s is to take available carb as what ends up pushing up post prandial levels for cooked foods. Use HALF or a THIRD the figure quoted for raw foods. Best wishes,  SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin Quentin, thank you once again! I learn new things every time I read one of your posts. I had no idea Apricots had Beta Carotene in them. (You would have thought that the fact they are orange might have been a clue to me?) I think I'm doing ok according to this. My biggest challenge has been Zeaxanthin, as my supply of orange peppers is not always constant (availability issues). The other foods listed in that category (Corn, Tangerines, and Mandarins) used to be very high on my favorite foods list, but Dx and having to avoid carbs limits me in that regard now. So, I thought I might suggest to anyone in a similar fix that \ Turnip greens, Collard greens, and Spinach also have some Zeaxanthin. Personally, I eat a heck of a lot of cooked spinach, so this works very well for me. One of these days I really must test corn again (right after Dx it bothered my BG's) as I miss it a lot, and it looks to be very nutritious. >G'day G'day Folks, > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >Spaghetti sauce 125 16 >Ketchup 60 15 >Categpry 3 Amount Available >Zeaxanthin (0.6 mg) to eat carb [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > >Best wishes, This post not CC'd by email On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 14:57:08 -0700, Chris J. <chris@noadress.com> wrote: >Quentin, thank you once again! I learn new things every time I read >one of your posts. > >I had no idea Apricots had Beta Carotene in them. (You would have >thought that the fact they are orange might have been a clue to me?) G'day G'day Chris J, It gets better. Apricots are good source of alpha-carotene which might well be ten times more effective than natural beta-carotene in protecting lung tissue. >I think I'm doing ok according to this. My biggest challenge has been >Zeaxanthin, as my supply of orange peppers is not always constant >(availability issues). Don't get to fussed. The trick is optimal fussing. Zeaxanthin is a bit on the rare side in modern diets. However it must have been possible to get sufficient in areas that never saw an orange capsicum or any other capsicum for that matter. How could this be. Well zeaxanthin lurks in intense green "vegetables" I've used speech marks because some of the best sources are often not thought of as vegetables, rather green herbs eg cilantro, mint, basil, dill, parsley. As I understand it humans before established agriculture people ate in excess of one hundred different plants. Through the seasons they ate a succession of plants perhaps escaping some poisoning by moving on to the next plant before accumulating a damaging dose of some antinutrient. This has little to do with where they got most of their calories. Greens are notorious for being low calorie. Here is some data from Austria. These were from a dietary survey to assess the intake of these specific carotenoids by Austrians. The implication is, if it ain't listed it didn't make a notable contribution. I have attempted to find my original source which had the serving size. Sorry, after the better part of half an hour I gave up. For all I know it might have been from average consumption figures though this seems unlikely. (They use , where we use a decimal point.) Lut. Zea. Basil 7,05 0,81 Broccoli 0,78 0,21 Cabbage Lettuce 2,49 0,73 Carrot 0,49 0,11 Cucumber 0,84 0,64 Curled Lettuce 1,87 0,42 Dill 13,82 3,81 Egg plant 0,17 0,08 French beans 0,76 0,13 Leek 3,68 0,59 Lettuce, mixed 1,61 0,31 Lettuce, Grazer Krauth 0,36 0,09 Lettuce, Lollo Rosso 3,10 0,76 Lettuce, Radiccio 0,62 0,23 Parsley 6,40 0,71 Pea 1,91 0,85 Pepper, green 0,54 0,41 Pepper, hot 0,78 0,41 Pepper, violet 0,08 Pumpkin * 0,07 0,015 Pumpkin, Connecticut 0,55 Pumpkin, Hokkaido 5,99 Pumpkin, Mammut Gold 1,72 Sage 6,35 1,21 Spinach 5,93 2,07 Summer Squash 2,26 0,65 Tomato 0,21 0,05 White Cabbage 0,45 0,091 First up notice 1. The sources are vegetables not bread, pasta etc 2. How the culinary herbs are rich in lutein and zeaxanthin. Lut. Zea. Basil 7,05 0,81 Dill 13,82 3,81 Sage 6,35 1,21 Parsley 6,40 0,71 In a recent study, reported in the December 2004 issue of the Journal of Nutrition, human eye cells were treated with several concentrations of lutein, zeaxanthin or vitamin E, and exposed to ten seconds of ultraviolet-beta radiation (UVB). UVB radiation is a wavelength of sunlight that is believed to be responsible for cataract formation. Pre-treatment of the eye cells with lutein and zeaxanthin inhibited markers of UVB damage by 50-60%. Although vitamin E had a protective effect in this study, lutein and zeaxanthin were nearly ten times more powerful. >The other foods listed in that category (Corn, Tangerines, and >Mandarins) used to be very high on my favorite foods list, but Dx and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Zeaxanthin. Personally, I eat a heck of a lot of cooked spinach, so >this works very well for me. Spinach is a variable feast. Some seems to have next to no zeaxanthin according to some tables. The one below suggests a cup will near as matters supply the 0.6 mg/day requirement EVEN IN THE WORST CASE. In the best case it could provide more than a weeks supply. To me it makes sense to eat quiche. Good Food Sources of Lutein and Zeaxanthin (mg/1 cup serving) Lut. + Zea. Lutein Zeaxanthin Kale 20.5 to 26.5 1.1 to 2.2 Collard greens 15.3 5.1 Spinach 3.8 to 12.6 2 to 13 0.5 to 6 Turnip greens 12 0.4 Broccoli 2.1 to 3.5 1.4 to 1.6 Corn, yellow 1.4 to 3.0 0.6 0.9 Peas, green 2.3 2.2 Orange pepper 1.7 Persimmons 1.4 0.8 Tangerine 0.5 0.2 >One of these days I really must test corn again (right after Dx it >bothered my BG's) as I miss it a lot, and it looks to be very >nutritious. Corn is a bit of a mystery. It's polyphenol content is now thought to have been wildly underestimated. Polyphenols are the "lost" nutrients that magically seem to recycle Vit C and Vit E naturally. I'm wondering if the carb content calculated for corn meal is somehow way too high. There have been several reports he of T2s finding it OK to eat. Best wishes, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin >This post not CC'd by email > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >might well be ten times more effective than natural beta-carotene in >protecting lung tissue. That is good news, especially for me! I love dried apricots, and although I gave them up when Dx'd, I've found I can eat a few at a time with no trouble now, and also I eat them when I hike. >>I think I'm doing ok according to this. My biggest challenge has been >>Zeaxanthin, as my supply of orange peppers is not always constant >>(availability issues). > >Don't get to fussed. The trick is optimal fussing. Isn't optimal fussing best described as fussing so much you drive yourself crazy? If so, I'm an optimal fusser. :-) >Here is some data from Austria. These were from a dietary survey to >assess the intake of these specific carotenoids by Austrians. >The implication is, if it ain't listed it didn't make a notable >contribution. >I have attempted to find my original source which had the serving >size. Sorry, after the better part of half an hour I gave up. For all >I know it might have been from average consumption figures though this >seems unlikely. Thank you so much for trying. And, the data below is indeed very helpful to me!!! I eat salad at least twice a day, and this list (Most of it) resembles my shopping list! I'll comment on the herbs lower down. >(They use , where we use a decimal point.) > Lut. Zea. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > >1. The sources are vegetables not bread, pasta etc >2. How the culinary herbs are rich in lutein and zeaxanthin. > Lut. Zea. >Basil 7,05 0,81 >Dill 13,82 3,81 >Sage 6,35 1,21 >Parsley 6,40 0,71 I eat a great deal of fresh herbs. I began using herbs as seasonings when I first learned to cook, back when I was eight. Then, when I was in college I decided to reduce my salt intake, and I turned to herbs and spices to replace salt. Ever since then I've been decidedly heavy handed with herbs and spices, especially the ones I grow; Dill, Basil, Rosemary, Sage, Chives, greek oregano, tarragon, garlic, etc. So, if a nutrient is present in culinary herbs, I'm fairly certain I'm not deficient in it. :-) :-) >In a recent study, reported in the December 2004 issue of the Journal >of Nutrition, human eye cells were treated with several concentrations [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >effect in this study, lutein and zeaxanthin were nearly ten times more >powerful. This is especially important for me, as I live at high altitude in a fairly low latitude. That means I get a lot more UV, at least 50% more. I wear sunglasses (and sunblock) all the time, but that doesn't remove all of it. >>The other foods listed in that category (Corn, Tangerines, and >>Mandarins) used to be very high on my favorite foods list, but Dx and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> Zeaxanthin. Personally, I eat a heck of a lot of cooked spinach, so >>this works very well for me. >Spinach is a variable feast. Some seems to have next to no zeaxanthin >according to some tables. The one below suggests a cup will near as >matters supply the 0.6 mg/day requirement EVEN IN THE WORST CASE. In >the best case it could provide more than a weeks supply. To me it >makes sense to eat quiche. Ahh, spinach quiche.. I used to make that quite often pre-Dx. The problem I have with it that I never found a way to make it taste good (to me) without fat. I usually put cheese in it, or sun-dried tomatoes in olive oil. The crust would also be problematic now, though I could make it crustless, or just use very little whole-grain rye dough. Hmmm.. Sun dried tomatoes and olive oil aren't bad as that's not saturated fat. Now that I think about it, I stopped making that due to the calories while I was losing weight. I ended my weight loss diet just a few days before I left for my trip in December, and I guess I forgot that I'm no longer so limited on calories! Thanks for jump-starting my memory on this, and I'm making one tomorrow! >>One of these days I really must test corn again (right after Dx it >>bothered my BG's) as I miss it a lot, and it looks to be very [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >too high. There have been several reports he of T2s finding it OK to >eat. For what it's worth, I can eat stone-ground corn tortillas (often found in mexican food) with no trouble. I even use them (sparingly) in cooking here at home for enchiladas and casseroles, and have never had a high BG number due to them. OK, I think it's well worth a test: I'll buy some frozen cut corn (my favorite) next time I'm in town. This post not CC'd by email On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 23:20:36 -0700, Chris J. <chris@noadress.com> wrote: >>G'day G'day Chris J, >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >although I gave them up when Dx'd, I've found I can eat a few at a >time with no trouble now, and also I eat them when I hike. G'day G'day Chris J, Congratulations ... hiking. There is something decidedly substantial about hiking. No goes hiking unless they are willing to commit themselves to a lot of walking. Today, I doubled my normal walk of about a kilometre around Pa kowhai Country park. Felt proud to have accomplished it. There is a small island in the spring fed stream and today I was able to give the dogs a grinding swim upstream and a leisurely cruise down stream. Even the mental stimulation of doing something different was good for them. The border collie loves to predict which way are going to go so he was in his element. Was it a hike? Nah, that's something I'll have to work up to. Thanks though for the inspiration. BTW, dried apricots are low GI. This makes them surprisingly useful for T2 when hiking. I have used them as insurance against slight hypos when driving. For this purpose I mix them with almonds or hazelnuts which are both high oleic acid nuts. Something I have become more aware of recently is that some benefits of dried fruit have been over looked. Apparently dried figs are high in polyphenols which recycle Vit C and Vit E. Apricots are most likely similar. Best wishes, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin >This post not CC'd by email > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >about hiking. No goes hiking unless they are willing to commit >themselves to a lot of walking. Walking is sort of required for hiking... :-) >Today, I doubled my normal walk of about a kilometre around Pa kowhai >Country park. Felt proud to have accomplished it. There is a small [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >border collie loves to predict which way are going to go so he was in >his element. That sounds like a very beautiful place! Glad you and your dogs had such fun. >Was it a hike? Nah, that's something I'll have to work up to. >Thanks though for the inspiration. My hiking is a bit, well, strange.... I mainly do non-trail mountain hiking. Basically, I just go cross-country in mountainous areas. It's easier than it sounds because while some of it involves a fast pace up or down 30 degree or more grades, some parts are at a very slow pace due to terrain or vegetation. I've been doing this as a hobby since my early teens. Now, due to my Dx, I let myself do it at least five times a week. I'm lucky as I live in an area perfect for this, and my hikes usually begin and end at my door. >BTW, dried apricots are low GI. This makes them surprisingly useful >for T2 when hiking. I have used them as insurance against slight hypos >when driving. For this purpose I mix them with almonds or hazelnuts >which are both high oleic acid nuts. Ahhh!!! That is very close to what I do. I like trail mix, but most of the commercial stuff has, for some insane reason, chocolate (often M&M's) in it. Even pre Dx I hated that because it's often hot out on the hikes, and chocolate gets messy fast. So, I make my own from mixed nuts (peanuts, hazelnuts, almonds, cashews, and brazils.) plus some chopped dried apricots. I use lightly salted as I do need some salt on hikes (especially those over four hours). >Something I have become more >aware of recently is that some benefits of dried fruit have been over >looked. Apparently dried figs are high in polyphenols which recycle >Vit C and Vit E. Apricots are most likely similar. If I recall, it was information from you that encouraged me to test dried apricots about a month after my Dx. I sure did miss them (I used to have them a lot pre Dx)., so for both nutritional and enjoyment reasons, THANK YOU. This post not CC'd by email On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 17:40:48 -0700, Chris J. <chris@noadress.com> wrote: >>Today, I doubled my normal walk of about a kilometre around Pa kowhai >>Country park. Felt proud to have accomplished it. There is a small [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >I'm lucky as I live in an area perfect for this, and my hikes usually >begin and end at my door. G'day G'day Chris, It sounds fabulous. So much of making success a life long venture is making the best of our environment. Healthy activities that give us pleasure have been proven to be vastly more successful long term than the "fight against your lazy self" strategies involved in gym attendance. Some sneaky researchers followed two groups for six months. One group signed up for gym and the other joined a club that went on walks to interesting places. A year after the experiment "officially" ended they re-examined the two groups. Most of the gym folks had dropped going to the gym soon after the spot light was off them. I think it may be an example of the Hawthorne affect. The other group had become involved in the social and aesthetic aspects of the hiking and had carried on. >>BTW, dried apricots are low GI. This makes them surprisingly useful >>for T2 when hiking. I have used them as insurance against slight hypos [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >chopped dried apricots. I use lightly salted as I do need some salt on >hikes (especially those over four hours). There is a reason you are succeeding. It has something to do with doing the right thing. <grin> >>Something I have become more >>aware of recently is that some benefits of dried fruit have been over [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >to have them a lot pre Dx)., so for both nutritional and enjoyment >reasons, THANK YOU. ASD at its best. I'm delighted to have the venue for being part of this social experiment of people with a vested interest in enjoying a complication free life sharing and supporting one another. Best wishes, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin >This post not CC'd by email >>I'm lucky as I live in an area perfect for this, and my hikes usually >>begin and end at my door. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >other group had become involved in the social and aesthetic aspects of >the hiking and had carried on. ROFL! Oh yes, the Hawthorne effect! It's certainly true that people act far differently when they think they are being observed. I have to admit, working out with weights is something I hate. I did it quite a bit after DX, even built and equipped a weight room (it's too far for me to go to a gym). However, I find it boring as heck. I soon installed a TV for distraction, but found audio books from the library better. It's still too boring for me though, so I ended up not doing it as often as I should. I now do it three times a week, which I can cope with ok. I'm darn lucky regarding the hiking. It's a love of mine, and it's a big part of why I moved up here. So, to me it's not exercise, it's a hobby. And, better yet, it's a hobby that my diabetes gives me an excuse to do every day. I look at it this way: I'm stuck with this disease, so darn it, I'm going to take advantage of it when I can! That means I get to go on hikes daily, and also I get to be picky about what I eat, and use diabetes as an excuse. <grin>. I'll soon be unable to hike very often, as we are overdue for the winter snowstorms. But, when those hit, my cross country skiing hobby comes in handy. :-) >>Ahhh!!! That is very close to what I do. I like trail mix, but most of >>the commercial stuff has, for some insane reason, chocolate (often [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >There is a reason you are succeeding. It has something to do with >doing the right thing. <grin> ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>If I recall, it was information from you that encouraged me to test >>dried apricots about a month after my Dx. I sure did miss them (I used [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >this social experiment of people with a vested interest in enjoying a >complication free life sharing and supporting one another. I'm certainly delighted to be here too, and it's made an enormous difference in my life. > I have to admit, working out with weights is something I hate. I did > it quite a bit after DX, even built and equipped a weight room (it's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > doing it as often as I should. I now do it three times a week, which I > can cope with ok. Um, Chris - that's the optimum amount : ) I tape my favourite radio programmes, and only listen to them whilst weightlifting. I have several 30-minute workouts that are designed around Radio 4 : ) Nicky. SignatureA1c 10.5/5.6/<6 T2 DX 05/2004 1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine 95/73/72Kg >> I have to admit, working out with weights is something I hate. I did >> it quite a bit after DX, even built and equipped a weight room (it's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Um, Chris - that's the optimum amount : ) I thought it was every other day? >I tape my favourite radio programmes, and only listen to them whilst >weightlifting. I have several 30-minute workouts that are designed around >Radio 4 : ) I think I got more excercise building the room and setting it up than from it. :-) >>> I have to admit, working out with weights is something I hate. ...I now >>> do it three times a week, which I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I thought it was every other day? How many days in your week? : ) I have one how-to book that has 30 days in a row of routines, alternating upper and lower body, and another that has 12 weeks' worth of combo routines you do 2 or 3 times a week. I tend to alternate between them, with a week off when I've completed one. Maintaining the variety seems to be important for my motivation. I also have a spreadsheet which holds all the weightlifting exercises I know about, arranged in muscle groups. One day I'm going to write a random number generator to dial-a-routine so it's different every time - if I'm using this spreadsheet rather than the books, I get the same effect by means of my 11yo : ) I really like weightlifting. I find it helps my weight more than walking does, for a far smaller time outlay. It's also gentle on bg levels - I've never had a liver dump from weightlifting, although I also don't get the drops in BG that walking gives. Nicky. SignatureA1c 10.5/5.6/<6 T2 DX 05/2004 1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine 95/73/72Kg >>>> I have to admit, working out with weights is something I hate. ...I now >>>> do it three times a week, which I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >How many days in your week? : ) Seven.. how many in yours? :-) If I did it every other day, I'd need a six, not a seven, day week. :-) >I have one how-to book that has 30 days in a row of routines, alternating >upper and lower body, and another that has 12 weeks' worth of combo routines [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >every time - if I'm using this spreadsheet rather than the books, I get the >same effect by means of my 11yo : ) ROFL!!!!!!!!! >I really like weightlifting. I find it helps my weight more than walking >does, for a far smaller time outlay. It's also gentle on bg levels - I've >never had a liver dump from weightlifting, although I also don't get the >drops in BG that walking gives. Hmmm. I'm not fond of regular walking myself. I do my mountain hiking, which does actually burn calories faster than weights (mainly due to rough terrain and altitude changes). But, the hiking has long been a fun hobby so I enjoy it. The weights I do to add a balance to my routine, as the mountain hiking is not equal in it's effect on all muscle groups. > Hmmm. I'm not fond of regular walking myself. I do my mountain hiking, > which does actually burn calories faster than weights (mainly due to > rough terrain and altitude changes). But, the hiking has long been a > fun hobby so I enjoy it. I live in East Anglia. Mountain hiking is not an option : ) Besides, there was a wonderful study published a while ago - maybe before your dx? - that said diabetics benefit most from hiking downhill. I'm a firm believer in that - hubby and I have been known to be on the same hill at the same time going in different directions, cable car permitting : ) Nicky. SignatureA1c 10.5/5.4/<6 T2 DX 05/2004 1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine 95/73/72Kg >> Hmmm. I'm not fond of regular walking myself. I do my mountain hiking, >> which does actually burn calories faster than weights (mainly due to >> rough terrain and altitude changes). But, the hiking has long been a >> fun hobby so I enjoy it. > >I live in East Anglia. Mountain hiking is not an option : ) Do you have a shovel? So, no excuses then.. get busy! <grin> >Besides, there >was a wonderful study published a while ago - maybe before your dx? - that >said diabetics benefit most from hiking downhill. I'm a firm believer in >that - hubby and I have been known to be on the same hill at the same time >going in different directions, cable car permitting : ) Well, For me, downhill is not an option unless I do the uphill part too. :-) G'day G'day Chris, You have so much figured out and are figuring out the rest so rapidly I don't know what to add. What has fascinated me most is how often we witness the extended human mind in action on asd. Things we say remind others to re-evaluate decisions as circumstances change. The realisation time shrinks and we come off effectively sharper in our decision making. Best wishes, This post not CC'd by email On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 23:20:36 -0700, Chris J. <chris@noadress.com> wrote: >2. How the culinary herbs are rich in lutein and zeaxanthin. > [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] >OK, I think it's well worth a test: I'll buy some frozen cut corn (my >favorite) next time I'm in town. SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin >G'day G'day Folks, > [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > >Best wishes, Quentin, we are all so much in your debt. You continually give us truly mind-boggling amounts of information. Question: How do you do it? Second question: How do you keep from being driven crazy by trying to remember all this stuff? Don't get me wrong... I, for one, truly appreciate all that you do for us on here in the way of leading us to helpful information. Thank you, Will, T2 |
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